Ending of 1984

[Alice]

Maybe this question is quite silly, but still... could someone explain that why Winston "loved Big Brother" in the end? I get that torture can force people to betray each other, but i don't get how it can change a person entirely?

[crisaor]

As you said, it's basically about torture. Being tortured over and over doesn't just affect your body, but your mind also. You'll become whatever's necessary to avoid that situation, you'll admit all your previous mistakes (even if they aren't any), and embrace whatever thing is imposed to you by your captor.

[subterranean]

True..a continuous suffering could change a person entirely..even a person who at the first place put hopes to God, might eventually leave his/her faith coz there seem no point in trusting a divine being when he/she need it most. It could be an excees of denial due to the torture but it may also considered as the cleverest way to survive.

[enemy]

O'Brien said that Thoughtcriminals are released after they are "corrected" and at the moment that they love Big Brother, that is when they are killed by Thinkpol. With the last sentence of 1984 comes Winstons death. The instant he loves Big Brother, the Party has succeeded and thinkpol would kill him

[Dunpeal]

hold on a sec... now that you people are talking about 1984
question: along with Big Brother.. Goldstein and The Brotherhood also do not exist, right??

also.. who the heck wrote that infamous "the book"??

[DumbLikeAPoet]

I would say that a version of "the brotherhood' does exist inside of the proles. It is not actually called that but is probably more of a small group of proles who are semi-self educated and have a thought of revolution.

"The Book" according to O'Brien was written by members of the inner party. He even wrote some of it.

Jonus

[crisaor]

Hey there. Welcome back.

[Comrade]

I may be wrong, but: I think that Winston came to look upon suffering as shameful during his torture, as seen in the fact that he broke down and wept when he looked himself in the mirror after he had been starved for days. (he was almost like a skeleton). He despised his body, and ultimately his own beliefs.

I think Winston was mentally "overwhelmed" by the strength of the party which he witnessed during hours of torture - in other words, he succumbed unconciously to the philosophy of "might is right". The party is stronger than him, therefore he must be wrong. I heard that the purpose of the modern physicological torture is to feel the victim feel helpless and incomparably weak compared to the torturer.

His torture also made him feel absolutely dependant on the Party, shown when he said that he felt as though O'Brien was like a invincible protector, shielding him from suffering (since he controls when to activate the electric-shocker), a man with noble intentions. This looks almost like a copy of Big Brother. So, at this point he is not only pretending that he loves the party, but actually beliving in the party's good intentions.

[earth]

The main point that 1984 taught me through example is the old German addage:

1000 flies eat poop. 1000 flies can't be wrong.

Big Brother + the continual war was a creation of their administration. It was a means of absolute control over a nation and it's people by a small + powerful few. Regardless of how good a system is, it is never infalliable. People like Winston would slip through. People like Winston needed to be "re-educated". If kept to an extremely small minority, a perpetual "snapshot" of society could be preserved, with those in power benefitting.

It's exactly what we're seeing right now in the US. Not nearly as bad, but the similarities are growing. OBL could, in essence, be viewed as Emmanuel Goldstein. The faceless enemy of society. People are, inherantly proles. We are mindless automatons that do not generally care about anything unless it affects us personally. Terrorism is great. Terrorism is essential the "perpetual war" waged from Eastasia + Eurasia. Whenever one sees a problematic shift in the thinking of the proles, the enemy is shifted to maintain the level of trust + disallusionment. All we need is a Big Brother... But we've always had him haven't we? Jesus Christ. Defender of the American way....

God Neo-Cons scare me. haHA

[Logos]

I'm just going to again remind people that discussion of politics is not allowed in these forums. There are a few locked topics about this already you can refer to.

`Politics' can be discussed if they relate directly to the content of George Orwell's `fictitious' works only. Discussion of current political climate is not allowed. I'll keep this topic open if people can stick to the particular works of George Orwell though.

[waxmephilosophical]

The torture was mainly responsible for Winston's physical "rehabilitation". His intellectual conversion had more to do with obliteration of reality. The Party has so effectively learned how to manipulate reality, to make their truth the absolute truth, that Winston wholeheartedly believes their doctrine. They annhilate any possibility of independent thought. His emotional conversion, however, was largely due to what he experienced in Room 101. After he screams Julia's name in his sleep, O'Brien realizes that he still harbors a hatred of the Party and a deep-rooted love for Julia. By taking him to Room 101 and confronting him with his worst fear, they prove to him that they are infinitely stronger, that they can make him betray even the most beloved of friends. Up until this point, his acceptance of the Party was largely a ploy to escape torture, but after he betrayed that which he held above the party, that which he thought they would never get to, he truthfully and wholly loved Big Brother.

Dunpeal, I also got the impression that Goldstein and The Brotherhood do not actually exist. Orwell never explicitly states this, but he does hint at it (heavily) by writing that no one can quite remember when Big Brother came into power, and no one has ever seen him (or Goldstein). Goldstein, like BB, is most likely a creation of the Party...so that its members can have a scape goat upon which to focus all of their hatred, which is in actuality the discontent they feel about their lives.

[Isagel]

Something went wrong. I´ll try again.

[Isagel]

[QUOTE=waxmephilosophical]". His intellectual conversion had more to do with obliteration of reality. The Party has so effectively learned how to manipulate reality, to make their truth the absolute truth, that Winston wholeheartedly believes their doctrine. They annhilate any possibility of independent thought. His emotional conversion, however, was largely due to what he experienced in Room 101.
--
Up until this point, his acceptance of the Party was largely a ploy to escape torture, but after he betrayed that which he held above the party, that which he thought they would never get to, he truthfully and wholly loved Big Brother.

[QUOTE]

I agree. But I also think it is important to remember that that the story is a work of fiction , a history that serves to prove a point. Winston loves Big Brother so Orwell can show us that the system of 1984 can´t be beaten. You can´t fool it. It will get you. Big Brother sees You. If Winston had gotten away with "bluffing" - not giving in totally - Orwell would have left us with a little bit of hope. The novel would not have been as dystopic. For me Winstons coneversion makes me wonder about all the others who love Big Brother - and what kind of stories they carry with them. The grey mass of obidient people might be individuals with stories like Winstons.

Besides this there also seems to be something that happens with people who perceive that they are powerless, and someone else have power. Some people in concentration camps started to try and make their clothes look like the guards, as much as possible. Some people who get abused will start to believe that the abuser is the one who is right, and that they deserve to be punished. It is a basic way of surviving, a way to make a world that have lost all meaning make sense again. We shun chaos and the vast void that is lack of meaning. Big Brother defines reality for Winston, in a way that gives his life meaning again, a meaning that he can bear to live with. Winston can not live with himself as a betrayer, as Judas. It to much pain, and without her it has no purpose anymore. It is easier to find new meaning as a disciple of Big Brother.

[requiredfields]

I agree with the many responses here that state Winston has become completely overwhelmed by the power of the state. Afterall, at any moment they could nab him and strap the rat cage back on his face. Utterly powerless, he succumbs and loves Big Bother at last because he believes he is nothing and the party is ALL. However, in reality, he still has the choice to defiantly commit suicide while still hating Big Brother. They would not be able to stop that. And he may even take a few party members with him when he goes. Sure, why not, a suicide bomber? That's what powerless people become when they have no options.

[The Atheist]

However, in reality, he still has the choice to defiantly commit suicide while still hating Big Brother. They would not be able to stop that. And he may even take a few party members with him when he goes. Sure, why not, a suicide bomber? That's what powerless people become when they have no options.

Nice try, but no cigar. I won't get into 21st century suicide bombers because A) it's not allowable under the no-politics rule, and B) it has no relevance anyway.

The whole point is that Winston no longer has any free will at all. None, nada, not even a teensy-tiny bit. He has no more individual will than your vacuum cleaner or toaster.

He is powerless to stop loving BB and he's most definitely powerless to think outside of the principles of Ingsoc. Suicide is a concept now beyond Winston's understanding - you wouldn't even be able to explain it to him.

In 2008 terms, Winston has been PWND.