What is Zen?

[dizzydoll]

I have asked this question before and been told there are no words to describe Zen. I've been told Zen is a tool. Does this mean its a tool of understanding to bridge two belief systems together? When people say they are practicing Zen what does that mean? Does it mean they meditate all day long? I have read many tales/stories told by Zen Buddhists and the history of Zen in each culture but thats it.. none of them explain how Zen is used as a tool.

I would like your feedback on what Zen means to you.

The miracle of Zen

Zen goes beyond Buddha and beyond Lao Tzu. It is a culmination, a transcendence, both of the Indian genius and of the Chinese genius. The Indian genius reached its highest peak in Gautam the Buddha and the Chinese genius reached its highest peak in Lao Tzu. And the meeting... the essence of Buddha's teaching and the essence of Lao Tzu's teaching merged into one stream so deeply that no separation is possible now. Even to make a distinction between what belongs to Buddha and what to Lao Tzu is impossible, the merger has been so total. It is not only a synthesis, it is an integration. Out of this meeting Zen was born. Zen is neither Buddhist nor Taoist and yet both.

To call Zen "Zen Buddhism" is not right because it is far more. Buddha is not so earthly as Zen is. Lao Tzu is tremendously earthly, but Zen is not only earthly: its vision transforms the earth into heaven. Lao Tzu is earthly, Buddha is unearthly, Zen is both - and in being both it has become the most extraordinary phenomenon.

The future of humanity will go closer and closer to the approach of Zen, because the meeting of the East and West is possible only through something like Zen, which is earthly and yet unearthly. The West is very earthly, the East is very unearthly. Who is going to become the bridge? Buddha cannot be the bridge; he is so essentially Eastern, the very flavor of the East, the very fragrance of the East, uncompromising. Lao Tzu cannot be the bridge; he is too earthly. China has always been very earthly. China is more part of the Western psyche than of the Eastern psyche.

It is not an accident that China is the first country in the East to turn communist, to become materialist, to believe in a godless philosophy, to believe that man is only matter and nothing else. This is not just accidental. China has been earthly for almost five thousand years; it is very Western. Hence Lao Tzu cannot become the bridge; he is more like Zorba the Greek. Buddha is so unearthly you cannot even catch hold of him - how can he become the bridge?

When I look all around, Zen seems to be the only possibility, because in Zen, Buddha and Lao Tzu have become one. The meeting has already happened. The seed is there, the seed of that great bridge which can make East and West one. Zen is going to be the meeting-point. It has a great future - a great past and a great future.

And the miracle is that Zen is neither interested in the past nor in the future. Its total interest is in the present. Maybe that's why the miracle is possible, because the past and the future are bridged by the present.

The present is not part of time. Have you ever thought about it? How long is the present? The past has a duration, the future has a duration. What is the duration of the present? How long does it last? Between the past and the future can you measure the present? It is immeasurable; it is almost not. It is not time at all: it is the penetration of eternity into time.

And Zen lives in the present. The whole teaching is: how to be in the present, how to get out of the past which is no more and how not to get involved in the future which is not yet, and just to be rooted, centered, in that which is.

The whole approach of Zen is of immediacy, but because of that it can bridge the past and the future. It can bridge many things: it can bridge the past and the future, it can bridge the East and the West, it can bridge body and soul. It can bridge the unbridgeable worlds: this world and that, the mundane and the sacred.

The Tao of Zen is a book by Ray Grigg, published by Alva Press in 1994.

The work argues that what we recognize as traditional Chinese Ch’an/Japanese Zen Buddhism is in fact almost entirely grounded in Chinese Taoist philosophy, though this fact is well shrouded by the persistence of Mahayana Buddhist institutional trappings. Utilizing an array of scholarly commentary on the two traditions and historical deduction from what can be considered to be the best primary source material available, the author traces the development of Taoism and Buddhism in China and Japan for two millennia.

The story unfolds in China as Buddhism appears on the scene and is accepted by the population as a “simplified version of Taoism” the Western barbarians (subcontinent Indians and Central Asians) could understand. They shared many philosophical similarities that made Chinese acclimation to Buddhism much easier – but the more dogmatic ways in which Buddhism was practiced helped it to get the fast track on becoming the predominant religion in China.

Its predisposition to monastic institutionalization throughout the empire allowed it to eventually assimilate and co-opt Taoist perspectives. The dominance of the Ch’an Buddhist tradition was most responsible for this trend. However, when it was eventually exported to Japan, the Taoist strands had the opportunity in a new cultural framework to once again assert themselves.

Grigg is able to trace the submergence and eventual resurgence of Taoism in Japan and the modern West by identifying how its specific tendencies (paradox, nonduality, aversion to institutionalization, emphasis on informal and varied paths to “enlightenment”, focus on the practical matters of influencing the social world, etc.) clearly manifested themselves in very different times and places.

What he seeks to do in this book is vindicate the importance of Taoist thought in the Chinese religious history and displace the notion of Zen Buddhism as a coherent whole. To him, these are very different spiritual systems that only coexist today because of the almost wholly unacknowledged lingering of the original Buddhist colonization of Taoist China. The popularity of Zen today owes much more to its persistent Taoist origins than to Buddhist doctrine.

[Paulclem]

I've just googled your text and it is from Osho who was a Hindu teacher. I suggest you look a bit wider than this , as Osho is not a Buddhist and therefore perhaps not the best commentator to refer to.

My understanding of Zen is that it is a form of Ch'an Buddhism from China practiced in Japan.

It has become popular in the West - I have attended a class locally here in the UK and there are centres in the USA etc.

It emphasises meditation practice, and follows the Mahayana or Northern Buddhist teachings. There are different schools of Zen Buddhism, some of which have developed spiritual meditation practices based upon Koans - coundrumswhich are designed to challenge the accepted logic of the practitioner - and much more than this - in order to take the practitioner on an inner spirtual journey with a guide.

The posters who put things like Zen is a tool etc may well be right but they didn't help you much. Zen is a school of Buddhism with a particular approach to meditation practice. It is in accord with The Buddha's teachings. Also, the idea of meditating all day may well come from a Zen retreat which will last a week or two. Here practitioners will embark upon an intense period of meditation, but the usual practitioner will meditate once or twice a day to fit into their routine.

It is a regular school of Buddhism which will be easy to look up. Better still see if there is a local class where they will be adle to tell you more.


http://www.borders.com.au/book/three...of-zen/265070/

I found the above book very good.

[dizzydoll]

There are different schools of Zen Buddhism, some of which have developed spiritual meditation practices based upon Koans

Thank you Paul, excellent and to the point. I have no clue what the Koans are but I can assure you I would not be interested in meditating the whole day

So I take it when someone says they are practicing Zen I am to assume they are meditating all day? Gosh.

You know I have no problem with religiosity or living belief systems but if what they teach is not consistent with nature then its just another man-made concept to control the masses. IMO

I mean, I ask you.. what in nature relaxes all day? Or better still what in nature attempts to control desire? What in nature embraces sufferance and strives to live according to those rules?

Still, I find the living belief systems interesting learning and chose what I am willing to absorb and discard the rest.

Thanks again, your explanation has been the best so far

[Paulclem]

Thank you Paul, to the point. I have no clue what he Koans are but I can assure you I would not be interested in meditating the whole day

So I take it when someone says they are practicing Zen I am to assume they are meditating all day? Gosh.

You know I have no problem with religiosity or living belief systems but if what they teach is not consistent with nature then its just another man-made concept to control the masses. IMO

I mean, I ask you.. what in nature relaxes all day? Or better still what in nature attempts to control desire? What in nature embraces sufferance and strives to live according those rules?

Still, I find the living belief systems interesting learning and chose what I am willing to absorb and discard the rest.

Thanks again, your explanation has been the best so far

It's not about meditating all day can assure you. A zen practice may involve 20 mins a day. Some advice I saw on a Zen video was to suggest that 20 mins to half an hour a day would be good - but that any time keeps up the practice - such as a minute a day. There's no hard and fast rule.

You do it to your own eperience and capacity, and I wouldn't assume that when someone says they practice Zen that they meditate all day.

It's not just about meditating though. There are lots of ideas to assimilate too such as Karma, reincarnation, the wheel of life etc. It's about a balance of study and meditation, though to do it alone is quite difficult. It is much better at a class.

[dizzydoll]

Well thats a relief to find out. Still why would there have to be a name called Zen? What is the purpose of it?

It's not just about meditating though. There are lots of ideas to assimilate too such as Karma, reincarnation, the wheel of life etc. It's about a balance of study and meditation

I believe in everything you say in this quote but I wouldnt need to add the name Zen to describe it. I also meditate every evening before I go to sleep for 20 mins. No need to refer to that as Zen.

Please dont consider me difficult, its just that people love to add useless names which only creates confusion without clear meanings. Like the word Zen. lol. Lao-Tzu says we must stop naming things

Ta

coundrums which are designed to challenge the accepted logic of the practitioner - and much more than this - in order to take the practitioner on an inner spirtual journey with a guide.

Does this mean challenging the practitioners concepts? Is it a Zen master who does the challenging or you yourself? If this is so, then they should challenge the concept of attempting to control desire. lol

And if you dont mind answering, who is this guide? Is it your inner guide or a Zen master?

[Paulclem]

Well thats a relief to find out. Still why would there have to be a name called Zen? What is the purpose of it?



I believe in everything you say in this quote but I wouldnt need to add the name Zen to describe it. I also meditate every evening before I go to sleep for 20 mins. No need to refer to that as Zen.

Please dont consider me difficult, its just that people love to add useless names which only creates confusion without clear meanings. Like the word Zen. lol. Lao-Tzu says we must stop naming things

Ta

Zen is the name of the school, and it is derived from the Chinese Ch'an. It really depends upon which form of Buddhism you subscribe to - if that is in fact what you are doing. There are lots of forms of meditation, and each school has it's own approach to the Buddhist teachings. Through it's own traditions and Masters, some Zen schools advocate watching the thoughts, but bringing the mind back to the breath. They often meditate staring at a wall in order to cut stimuli from the external world and focus.

The point about not naming things refers to a particular teaching about the emptiness of inherent existence - specifically name only. The advice to stop naming things is about appreciating the nature of reality, but without the meditation background devolves into word philosophy and has little meaning. To really appreciate and realise such things you would need a teacher - as we all do - to explain and guide you. You can read about it of course, but it is difficult to understand and easy to dismiss.

I know what you mean about useles words. If you are not following a Zen path of meditation, then you will be doing some other form of meditation that is not necessarily Zen. I shouldn't worry too much about it, but follow it up with reading or classes if you are able and want to. Any Buddhist school will teach you a useful form of meditation, and supplement it with teachings. Zen has a particular tradition from Japan, but you will find that the Buddhist tenets are the same as other schools - just with a different emphasis.

Does this mean challenging the practitioners concepts? Is it a Zen master who does the challenging or you yourself? If this is so, then they should challenge the concept of attempting to control desire. lol

And if you dont mind answering, who is this guide? Is it your inner guide or a Zen master?

I meant the teacher or spiritual guide and they set the koan for the contemplation of and reflection on by the Pupil. I think it does mean challenging your ideas and assumptions.

If this is so, then they should challenge the concept of attempting to control desire
Yep - that's the kind of thinking. You sound as though you are familiar with Zen ideas.


And if you dont mind answering, who is this guide? Is it your inner guide or a Zen master?

This is a Zen type question, and a good one at that.

[blazeofglory]

I've just googled your text and it is from Osho who was a Hindu teacher. I suggest you look a bit wider than this , as Osho is not a Buddhist and therefore perhaps not the best commentator to refer to.

My understanding of Zen is that it is a form of Ch'an Buddhism from China practiced in Japan.

It has become popular in the West - I have attended a class locally here in the UK and there are centres in the USA etc.

It emphasises meditation practice, and follows the Mahayana or Northern Buddhist teachings. There are different schools of Zen Buddhism, some of which have developed spiritual meditation practices based upon Koans - coundrumswhich are designed to challenge the accepted logic of the practitioner - and much more than this - in order to take the practitioner on an inner spirtual journey with a guide.

The posters who put things like Zen is a tool etc may well be right but they didn't help you much. Zen is a school of Buddhism with a particular approach to meditation practice. It is in accord with The Buddha's teachings. Also, the idea of meditating all day may well come from a Zen retreat which will last a week or two. Here practitioners will embark upon an intense period of meditation, but the usual practitioner will meditate once or twice a day to fit into their routine.

It is a regular school of Buddhism which will be easy to look up. Better still see if there is a local class where they will be adle to tell you more.


http://www.borders.com.au/book/three...of-zen/265070/

I found the above book very good.

You are wrong Osho was not a Hindu. Of course he was born of Hindu Orthodox family but that does not mean he was a Hindu. He was authority on Zen Buddhism, Christianity, Sufism, Mohammedanism and the like.

[Paulclem]

You are wrong Osho was not a Hindu. Of course he was born of Hindu Orthodox family but that does not mean he was a Hindu. He was authority on Zen Buddhism, Christianity, Sufism, Mohammedanism and the like.

I would dispute that he could be an authority on all these religions. if you want to consult an authority on Catholicism, you ask a cardinal, or the Pope, not someone who claims to be so, but does not follow the religion.

I can see that you have him as an Avatar, and so I don't want to insult you Blaze, but in terms of Zen Buddhism, I was suggesting to Dizzydoll that they source their information from a dedicated Zen site.

I suggested he was a Hindu because he was born one, and I was under the impression that his teachings were based on Hindu meditation. I could be wrong of course.

[NickAdams]

Lao-Tzu says we must stop naming things

^ Was going to be my reply to your original post, but not the quote itself.
I no nothing of Zen, but am familiar with the Tao and I would say there is neither East nor West ... and yet there is, but the importance placed on it in the excerpt seems tremendously out of place for the philosophy.

I find it odd that the author placed Lao-Tzu, through China, with Western thought. Also that he attributed the qualities ("qualities" is perhaps not the most accurate, but what he mentions of past, present and future) of the Tao to Zen as if it was the defining difference.

[Paulclem]

^ Was going to be my reply to your original post, but not the quote itself.
I no nothing of Zen, but am familiar with the Tao and I would say there is neither East nor West ... and yet there is, but the importance placed on it in the excerpt seems tremendously out of place for the philosophy.

I find it odd that the author placed Lao-Tzu, through China, with Western thought. Also that he attributed the qualities ("qualities" is perhaps not the most accurate, but what he mentions of past, present and future) of the Tao to Zen as if it was the defining difference.

Yes I missed that. Zen Buddhism traces itself back to Bodhidharma in the 9th century. I think Tao is much older, though I know little about it. I certainly wouldn't agree that Zen is Taoist with Mahayana trappings. I know little of the Tao to comment on it, but the little I've read suggests similarities with Buddhist thought, but it is an independant and ancient tradition.

[dizzydoll]

So cool, all this interaction on this thread. Thank you Paul, I learn from you but its still confusing as you will see after reading the rest of this post.

Blaze says.. this is true. Osho loves Buddhist teachings.

You are wrong Osho was not a Hindu. Of course he was born of Hindu Orthodox family but that does not mean he was a Hindu. He was authority on Zen Buddhism, Christianity, Sufism, Mohammedanism and the like.

I have just got Osho's Three Treasures MP3, where he discusses Lao Tzu which is about 60 hours of material to listen to but havent got down to much of it yet. This is how Osho describes Lao-Tzu.

Lao-Tzu is simple, his analogy’s are that of a villager -- but alive, radiant. His book of Analogy has to be read again and again .-- Lao-Tzu is a mathematical philosopher who few people understand. But if you allow him you will be transformed by him.

You cant read Lao-Tzu like a paper back it is a life long work to enter the analogy. Logic is superficial, you can understand Aristotle, there is nothing much. But when it comes to Lao-Tzu, the first time you might even miss that there is something. But by and by Lao-Tzu will haunt you,. His attraction is feminine. By and by he will catch your being. You only have to allow him.

In logic you have to fight, in analogy you have to be sympathetic you have to allow it -- only then the analogy can flower. So in deep sympathy and reverence, in deep faith and trust only Lao-Tzu can be understood. You will not understand Lao-Tzu through your mind, only your heart. Analogy is for the heart, logic is for the mind. Lao-Tzu is a poet, you listen to poetry you don’t argue with it. You absorb the poetry, you chew it. You allow to move your being, you digest it. You forget the poetry and the words completely but the fragrance becomes part of you. The flavour and significance of the poetry becomes part of you.

Look what I have found

"If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are." - Zen Saying

It is generally known that the characteristics which distinguish Zen from other types of Buddhism are problematical because its "truth cannot be put into words" ("those who know do not speak") and that the awakening in Zen is something quite natural (using "direct pointing" Zen asserts that enlightenment manifests itself in everyday affairs) rather than being almost superhuman as in other schools of Buddhism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK_4Z5DZcNM
Its probably this simple There are other utube videos explaining this too.

“There is Buddha for those who don't know what he is, really. There is no Buddha for those who know what he is, really” Zen Proverb

...

The concept and practice of Zen did not begin nor start with the Buddha and there is no such things as Buddhist Zen, but there is a thing called Zen that Buddhist can practice.

Before Buddhism the Yogics of India existed and the yogics sat, in fact they sat in China 1,000 years before Buddhism ever arrived there. They sat with Taoist who introduced them to Zen....Them Taoist learned from the yogics the idea of sitting for immortality [prolonging life] by building the golden elixir within. In China they became known as the immortals the very old Taoist who became yogics and the yogics became Taoist...

Zen is: The unlearning of adulthood and when understood what is meant by that?

The Zen mind great link..We are one with all that there is and all that there is is one with us...that is the Way, the Dao Way and the Dao is both all that there is and is not.

Thank you all for you input, I'd love to read more

Before Ch'an was formed between 1 and 3 AD Zen had a long history in China. Zen became Zen Buddhism in Japan in the 12th century does not take this into consideration.

The Mahayana's tried their best to tie themselves back to the Buddha and tried to claim Zen as a part of the Mahayana of India but that is just not so.

There were Yogics from India in China practicing Zen with Taoist in China 1,000 before the mythical Bodhidharma was said to existed and the practice of Zen in China can be traced back to Fu Hsi.

Lao Tzu little book and the basis of Confucian belief dates to back to Fu Hsi also. Neither were expounding on something they originated it came from a source thousands of years earlier.

[Paulclem]

Do you know Osho's other name - Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh?

Some people like his stuff, but he has no authority within the Zen Community as a recognised Master.

As for Lao Tzu, it depends what you read as to how you interpret Taoism's relationship to Buddhism. Taoism is a distinct religion/ philosophy from Buddhism. Again, I would go to the actual source sites for Taoism and Zen Buddhism to check out what they are about.

[dizzydoll]

Thanks Paul, I will just continue to pick up others views on Zen because I am not sure which sites are credible. Anyway my focus lies elsewhere but occasionally I do love reading selected interpretations of Lao-Tzu's work [poetry] and views. For the most part I believe all religions and living belief systems are simply man-made concepts. Our inner guidance is all we need to put us in the drivers seat.

Do you know Osho's other name - Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh?

I almost forgot to answer this. Yes I do know this. His life is an example that we should be careful of the company we choose keep but he was a rebel and so its understandable he would have attracted same. Unfortunately his reputation was somewhat tarnished in the process.

[Paulclem]

No worries.

[dizzydoll]

You are such a gentleman Paul, you mum must be proud of you.

Zen Buddhism Teachings and Practices - Koans
A Zen Buddhist Technique to Help Attain Enlightenment

To mostly anyone, koans would seem to be nothing more than nonsense. They take the form of mysterious and puzzling stories, statements, and questions seemingly disconnected from reality and rationality all together. But that is precisely the intended exercise in the practice of koans.

The koan is a device used in Zen Buddhism to reflect and promote the Zen mentality and understanding of existence. It is an aid in the attainment of enlightenment (satori), intended to help Zen monks develop the consciousness and intuition that past Zen Masters had discovered on their own.

Often mistaken as simply Buddhist riddles, koans are more like conceptual thought exercises. Koans do not have definitive answers since the goal and the reward are not to be found in solving the paradox inherent in the koan’s words. Focusing on the words of the koan is actually counterproductive to the exercise. Meditating on the words of a koan hinders the possibility of genuine insight and revelation. Instead, the goal is to understand the Zen lesson within each koan.

Koans are primarily a Zen Buddhism device because it fits within the Zen system of religious practice, which deemphasizes scriptures and religious text in favor of personal mediation and master to student dialogue. Because koans are believed to promote enlightenment experiences, koans are a primarily used by the Rinzai sect of Zen, which places a heavy emphasis on satori.



Read more at Suite101: Zen Buddhism Teachings and Practices - Koans: A Zen Buddhist Technique to Help Attain Enlightenment http://buddhist-beliefs.suite101.com...#ixzz0ihPAhcWj

This makes a bit more sense of Zen... the search continues.

ALAN WATTS ON ZEN