Feminism

[JuniperWoolf]

2) Your average man is stronger and faster than your average woman

5) Men rarely tend to bleed for several consecutive days every month and for those days become volatile sentimental storms.

I did say...

Alright, people keep saying this. I need clarification. What non-physical quality might I, as a woman, posess that will never be posessed by a man and vice versa?

The point of structuralist feminism isn't to argue that what is feminine and what is masculine are not biological, it is to argue that cultural attitudes about femininity and masculinity are in part culturally constructed, despite an assumption of naturalness that pervades our current culture.

True true, the deterministic fallacy pervades every sphere nowadays, not just gender-wise. It's usually people who have a "little" science, gender roles are one of the examples that one of my favorite profs used when he told us that his favorite quote is "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" (gender, and the whole genetic determinism in regards to race kerfuffle).

There are very few real live women who embody all of the things that have been listed here as "female," and vice versa for males. The "female" female as you've described her practically doesn't exist, and neither does the "male" male (although I'm sure there are a few exceptions for both). Considering gender in such rigid, written-in-stone terms is what led to the great pill-popping and suicidal housewife plague of the '50's (not to mention the generation of children who grew up with serious daddy issues because their own were afraid to even hug them).

And then there are a few of us who embody very few of the "in general men/women are..." rules. It's not very fun for us. You have no idea how frustrating it is to constantly be told that "you're an exception," or that "you're just putting it on to compete/attract men." Yes. Either my entire personality is a lifelong lie devised to lure straight males by pretending to embody masculine traits (how does that even make sense?), or I'm a mutant. Inflexible ideas of gender identity really cause me a lot of grief, which is probably why so many people are intimidated into adherance of their socially-prescribed gender roles where they deviate from what is now the norm if they happen to (AND THE NORM CHANGES OVER GENERATIONS, so it's by no means inborn). Everyone's afraid of the scorn they'll attract, and they will: from people who are equally afraid of stepping outside of their culture's gender definitions. For example, Alexander's earlier point that men are more prone to homophobia than women - you know that it's because they're afriad of how they themselves might deviate away from their "gender role" (or even that they might only appear to deviate). I have piles of studies that can back me up if you have any doubt.

I've specified the important words in bold red and underlined them, just to make 100% sure that no one misses the point.

[Charles Darnay]

True true, the deterministic fallacy pervades every sphere nowadays, not just gender-wise. There are very few real live women who embody all of the things that have been listed here as "female," and vice versa for males. The "female" female as you've described her practically doesn't exist, and neither does the "male" male (I'm sure there are a few exceptions). Considering gender in such rigid, written-in-stone terms is what led to the great pill-popping and suicidal housewife plague of the '50's (not to mention the generation of children who grew up with serious daddy issues because their own were afraid to even hug them).

And then there are those of us who embody very few of the "in general men/women are..." rules. It's not very fun. You have no idea how frustrating it is to constantly be told that "you're an exception," or that "you're just putting it on to compete/attract men." Yes. Either my entire personality is a lifelong lie devised to lure straight males by pretending to embody masculine traits (how does that even make sense?), or I'm a mutant. Inflexible ideas of gender identity really cause me a lot of grief, which is probably why so many people are intimidated into adherance of their socially-prescribed gender roles. Everyone's afraid of the scorn they'll attract, and they will: from people who are equally afraid of stepping outside of their culture's gender definitions (for example, Alexander's earlier point that men are more prone to homophobia than women - that's because they're afraid).

I agree with most of this, and I think that what I consider positive feminist philosophies strive to disrupt the rigidity of the gender distinctions. There are those who would argue that women who "try to emulate men" - or rather who tend towards the more "masculine qualities" - are responsible for holding women back. I have no patience for these self-titled feminists.

On a separate point, in regards to men being more prone to homophobia than women - my experience (by no means scientific data) has shown otherwise. I have met far more women who are just put off by the fact that gay people exist than men.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Also, you and Darcy are simply belabouring against a strawman anyway. There are few feminist, if any who posit that men and women are identical except for culture. Even the most ardent of constructivist would not say that.

I keep saying this, but no one seems to listen. Maybe you'll get through to them, Pip.

[JuniperWoolf]

On a separate point, in regards to men being more prone to homophobia than women - my experience (by no means scientific data) has shown otherwise. I have met far more women who are just put off by the fact that gay people exist than men.

Yeah, solid point. I have lots of information on why people are homophobic, but I really haven't come across anything regarding the relationship between gender and homphobia. That's an "unknown" for me right now, so I shouldn't agree that men are more prone to homophobia than women.

[Alexander III]

I keep saying this, but no one seems to listen. Maybe you'll get through to them, Pip.

lso, you and Darcy are simply belabouring against a strawman anyway. There are few feminist, if any who posit that men and women are identical except for culture. Even the most ardent of constructivist would not say that.

I think you both misunderstood me. I was not arguing against a pseudo-feminist lingering inbetween the atoms of this thread. I was merley replying to Juniperwoolf, some personal observations of mine regarding differences between the sexes.

As for men being more homophobic than women, I abse this on the fact of language, of the vernacular used amongst young male groups and female groups. There is a theme in male banter of using efeminancy to demmen, efinacy which is often linked to homosexuality.

[Darcy88]

And then there are a few of us who embody very few of the "in general men/women are..." rules. It's not very fun for us. You have no idea how frustrating it is to constantly be told that "you're an exception," or that "you're just putting it on to compete/attract men." Yes. Either my entire personality is a lifelong lie devised to lure straight males by pretending to embody masculine traits (how does that even make sense?), or I'm a mutant. Inflexible ideas of gender identity really cause me a lot of grief, which is probably why so many people are intimidated into adherance of their socially-prescribed gender roles where they deviate from what is now the norm if they happen to (AND THE NORM CHANGES OVER GENERATIONS, so it's by no means inborn). Everyone's afraid of the scorn they'll attract, and they will: from people who are equally afraid of stepping outside of their culture's gender definitions. For example, Alexander's earlier point that men are more prone to homophobia than women - you know that it's because they're afriad of how they themselves might deviate away from their "gender role" (or even that they might only appear to deviate). I have piles of studies that can back me up if you have any doubt.

I have these contrasting conceptions of how I think and expect members of either gender to typically be and behave, but I don't care when my expectations are thwarted by one such as you who defies most of the stereotypes. My closest friend is the same way, a defier of gender generalities. As was the last girl I had strong feelings for. But I still recognize that, despite the many exceptions, these differences still commonly stand. Our brains feature many dissimilarities. Its a good thing. If the puzzle pieces were the all same then nothing would fit, psychologically speaking, not just physically. And as atypical as you consider yourself to be, I'm sure in many aspects you still show distinctively feminine traits. Do you go to bars, get hammered and want to fight or **** everyone in the bar? Could you imagine yourself having a child and then ditching it like many guys do? If you were going to a fancy restaurant would you pay any heed at all to your appearance or would you do as I do and merely tousle your hair, smooth your eyebrows, apply the smell test to your attire and then head out? lol.

[Paulclem]

As for men being more homophobic than women, I abse this on the fact of language, of the vernacular used amongst young male groups and female groups. There is a theme in male banter of using efeminancy to demmen, efinacy which is often linked to homosexuality.

I don't think this is homophobic - I think it's an an expression of a male challenge to a male. You said it in the male banter part - that's what it is on the whole. Calling a friend/ fellow etc gay/pouffe/ soft/ a girl etc is just like the tough guys commenting on a fight and referring to them as fighting with handbags.

It's not homophobic in itself in general, but a challenge to the sexual status of the other.

There may be more homophobic attitudes in males, but it's not evidenced with this. I think you're more likely to find it more prevalent in some social groups than others.

[Darcy88]

I also have tended to notice that homophobia is more common among men. Its likely due to the reason laid out by Juniper, that homosexuality is perceived by men as a threat to their own gender identity, their own masculinity. If a girl is friends with a gay man that's pretty normal. Around here though for a man to be friends with a gay man is a clear sign that he is not homophobic and for that reason he'd somewhat stand out from the rest.

[Taliesin]

Um, Paul - if you use homosexuality or effeminacy as insults, playful insults, banter, humiliation or even self-deprecatory humour then that, in my understanding, carries the implication that being gay or effeminate is by nature something negative, something that has lower status and is inferior. And that is homophobic.


But I digress.

As for feminism, as far as I understand, feminism is such a large and vague movement/ideology that it is hard to comment.

I myself wonder whether anyone will bring up womanism or anti-kyriarchy or other terms that have been invented due to some problems of the feminist movement.

[Paulclem]

Um, Paul - if you use homosexuality or effeminacy as insults, playful insults, banter, humiliation or even self-deprecatory humour then that, in my understanding, carries the implication that being gay or effeminate is by nature something negative, something that has lower status and is inferior. And that is homophobic.

Alex was arguing that it is a pointer to homophobia per se, but that's not the intention in the sense that it is directed to other mates/ men in order to challenge their masculinity. I take your point, but I think the emphasis is on the male challenge rather than a statement of homophobia.

It's not the kind of banter I would use, you understand, but it's in my experience of male groups and their competitiveness.

Edit: I've changed my mind. Above is what I originally replied, but now thinking about Taliesin's post, I reckon there is an element of homophobia embedded in the language.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Meh. Me and certain friends often all each other names like pussy, gay, fag, etc. It's demeaning to gays and women, I admit, but it isn't as if we are making a conscious decision to demean them. Plus, homophobia is defined as a fear of homosexuals. I'm not sure how that exemplifies a fear.

[Darcy88]

Meh. Me and certain friends often all each other names like pussy, gay, fag, etc. It's demeaning to gays and women, I admit, but it isn't as if we are making a conscious decision to demean them. Plus, homophobia is defined as a fear of homosexuals. I'm not sure how that exemplifies a fear.

Dislike or contempt for gays is also included in the definition of homophobia.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Well, not according to the definition on my computer's dictionary I double-checked before I posted (not saying you're wrong, just saying where I got my info):

"an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people."

Here are some others:

"unreasoning fear of or antipathy toward homosexuals and homosexuality."

irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals.

And from the OED:

Fear or hatred of homosexuals and homosexuality.

I don't think calling each other stupid names (lightheartedly and in no seriousness, no less) constitutes an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people, or applies to any of those definitions, really.

[OrphanPip]

No, but it's certainly irritating to not be able to make it through a single day without having to hear complete strangers demean you on the street, on the bus, eating lunch, or any comments section anywhere on the internet where the most insecure of the male species always seem to concentrate.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

We don't make a habit of using those words out in public around people we don't know--we're not total a-holes--just when we're hanging out, usually when playing video games, in which trash-talking is a necessity.