Transmigration of the Soul/Re-incarnation

[mounamrit]

Dear friends
I am doing some research on reincarnation/transmigration of the soul and I am interested in anyone that would like to share any information about this esoteric subject. If you have any quotes or references from Spiritual texts that support this widely believed theory could you please let me know.

Altough this is currently in the too hard basket to scientifically validate this theory, I believe that science will validate this theory within the next decade. History and many spiritual traditions make brief comments that support this belief, and even today there are many people that believe that they have experienced something from a past life.

Please share your views

Thankyou
Mounamurti

[YesNo]

I think it is true for the following reasons:

1) Near and shared death experiences show that something goes on after death. I suspect I would get bored with most heavens or hells that I have heard of and would hope they do not last, and so I suspect a reincarnation might come as a relief.

2) Ian Stevenson and others have done some research on this topic which makes me think there might be something to it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Stevenson

3) I take a general view that the universe is good in spite of all the suffering and so a good thing might be worth experiencing more than once.

4) Various religious traditions seem to support reincarnation and, who knows? They may be right.

How do you anticipate science will validate this within the next decade?

[mounamrit]

YesNo
I also believe it is true, and I have looked at the information/link which you shared which was very intersting and I would like to read more about Ian Stevenson's research....Currently myself and some close friends and colleagues are raising awareness about a ground breaking scientific research project which we intend to commence in India within the next couple of years.

The project is known as the KUNDALINI RESEARCH PROJECT and I anticipate the one of the ramifications/spin offs or outcomes from our research will be the validation of reincarnation. The project is a huge proejct which will scientifically validate the Kundalini Phenomena and prove that Kundalini is behind EVOLUTION, not just biological evolution which is just a minor part of the larger spiritual evolution which encompasses all.

"Thou art that" is the truth and we will prove it....

Mounamurti Saraswati

[mal4mac]

I think it is true for the following reasons:

1) Near and shared death experiences show that something goes on after death. I suspect I would get bored with most heavens or hells that I have heard of and would hope they do not last, and so I suspect a reincarnation might come as a relief.

What about a heaven that allowed you all the positive experiences you could get through reincarnation, and more, but none of the pain or boredom of human life, or any other negative experience?

3) I take a general view that the universe is good in spite of all the suffering and so a good thing might be worth experiencing more than once.

What if you come back as Schopenhauer?

4) Various religious traditions seem to support reincarnation and, who knows? They may be right.

But Buddhism suggests there is an end to reincarnation - when Nirvana is attained the 'flame' of being goes out. This is seen as a good thing, in opposition to your view that 'suffering is fine' as long as 'something nice' happens now and again. How can suffering ever be alright? Why would you want to risk reincarnating in a Nazi death camp? The flame going out seems quite a good result to me - no suffering then!

I've just been reading "50 Spiritual Classics" by Tom Butler-Bowden and he recommends Michael Newton , "Journey of Souls", in this area. Butler-Bowden's overview, itself, is very good, at least it persuaded me that research in this area can't be dismissed out of hand.

[Madhuri]

But Buddhism suggests there is an end to reincarnation - when Nirvana is attained the 'flame' of being goes out. This is seen as a good thing, in opposition to your view that 'suffering is fine' as long as 'something nice' happens now and again. How can suffering ever be alright? Why would you want to risk reincarnating in a Nazi death camp? The flame going out seems quite a good result to me - no suffering then!

Moksha/Nirvana is a concept in Hinduism too, which means liberation of the soul.

To put it in a non-philosophical way - The soul takes different forms, human or other species that exist on earth, and this keeps happening until the sins are washed off (the 'suffering' is seen as being reincarnated) and the soul can be liberated.

[YesNo]

The project is known as the KUNDALINI RESEARCH PROJECT and I anticipate the one of the ramifications/spin offs or outcomes from our research will be the validation of reincarnation. The project is a huge proejct which will scientifically validate the Kundalini Phenomena and prove that Kundalini is behind EVOLUTION, not just biological evolution which is just a minor part of the larger spiritual evolution which encompasses all.

Although I've heard of Kundalini before, I don't know much about it. I assume that the random genetic mutations and punctuated equilibrium now in evolutionary theory would be complemented by some form of consciousness, Kundalini, guiding this process. That's what I think is likely be the case since I don't think there is enough time for the evolutionary changes to have occurred completely by chance.

[YesNo]

What about a heaven that allowed you all the positive experiences you could get through reincarnation, and more, but none of the pain or boredom of human life, or any other negative experience?

Whatever happens, I hope to be on my best behavior.

I heard a story of someone who went to hell by mistake, but he didn't realize it. Everyone else in hell were under no delusions. They knew they were in hell. He made friends and people were glad he was there with them. Later, some angels came by and apologized for the mistake they made and said they would take him to heaven now. But he told them that he was settled in where he was. He had made friends and was having a good time. He preferred to stay where he and his friends were. And so he did.

I hope to have that kind of attitude to whatever happens.

What if you come back as Schopenhauer?

I guess in that case, I'd have to read some Schopenhauer.

But Buddhism suggests there is an end to reincarnation - when Nirvana is attained the 'flame' of being goes out. This is seen as a good thing, in opposition to your view that 'suffering is fine' as long as 'something nice' happens now and again. How can suffering ever be alright? Why would you want to risk reincarnating in a Nazi death camp? The flame going out seems quite a good result to me - no suffering then!

I don't think it is possible for the flame to go out. That seems to come from a view of an eternal universe that somehow we got trapped in and have to get out of. But the universe is not eternal. It had a beginning.

So, I assume the universe is good and that suffering and pleasure are ultimately good.

However, I don't have any religion to offer to justify this. I might have it all wrong.

I've just been reading "50 Spiritual Classics" by Tom Butler-Bowden and he recommends Michael Newton , "Journey of Souls", in this area. Butler-Bowden's overview, itself, is very good, at least it persuaded me that research in this area can't be dismissed out of hand.

I'll see if they're in the library.

[Paulclem]

Whatever happens, I hope to be on my best behavior.

I heard a story of someone who went to hell by mistake, but he didn't realize it. Everyone else in hell were under no delusions. They knew they were in hell. He made friends and people were glad he was there with them. Later, some angels came by and apologized for the mistake they made and said they would take him to heaven now. But he told them that he was settled in where he was. He had made friends and was having a good time. He preferred to stay where he and his friends were. And so he did.

I hope to have that kind of attitude to whatever happens.



I guess in that case, I'd have to read some Schopenhauer.



I don't think it is possible for the flame to go out. That seems to come from a view of an eternal universe that somehow we got trapped in and have to get out of. But the universe is not eternal. It had a beginning.

So, I assume the universe is good and that suffering and pleasure are ultimately good.

However, I don't have any religion to offer to justify this. I might have it all wrong.



I'll see if they're in the library.

The question of heaven and hell is an interesting one. In Buddhist terms it is not a place as such as it depends upon the mind of the being as to whether they experience it or not. For exanple there was a monk who developed the sincere wish to be reborn in hell in order to help the beings there. He was though unable due to his mind of compassion. His mind was unable to generate the conditions that result in hell.


Our shared reality is also said to be like this, so the idea of places is dependant upon mind states.

[YesNo]

The question of heaven and hell is an interesting one. In Buddhist terms it is not a place as such as it depends upon the mind of the being as to whether they experience it or not. For exanple there was a monk who developed the sincere wish to be reborn in hell in order to help the beings there. He was though unable due to his mind of compassion. His mind was unable to generate the conditions that result in hell.


Our shared reality is also said to be like this, so the idea of places is dependant upon mind states.

The story comes from some Hindu-Buddhist source, but I can't remember where any more and it does seem to depend on the person's mind state. The person who was sent to hell by mistake didn't see it as hell at all.

If the monk in the story you were referring to were able to be reborn in hell, I suspect he would be able to help those who were there.

There's another story from a similar source where someone and his dog approach heaven. As they are about to enter they notice a sign that says, "No dogs allowed." The guard at the gate sees the dog and gives the guy a choice. He can either enter heaven and leave the dog outside or he can not go in at all. Since he would not abandon his dog, they walk off together and he doesn't go to heaven. As they leave the guard sees the dog turn into Krishna.

I might have that story wrong. If anyone knows the source of the story, I would love to read it in its proper setting. It also seems to have as a moral that heaven as well is a mind state. There is no place one has to enter.

[Paulclem]

If the monk in the story you were referring to were able to be reborn in hell, I suspect he would be able to help those who were there.

I think the point of it is that hell is a mind state which, as he's developed compassion, the monk can't access. hells are based upon hate, which he's overcome.

It is easy to see people who are experiencing hell in this life - people with mental health problems or who have degenerative diseases with non-acceptance etc. There is an element of subjectivity in the experience, as your stories have indicated.

[cacian]

QUOTE=Paulclem;1186784]I think the point of it is that hell is a mind state which, as he's developed compassion, the monk can't access. hells are based upon hate, which he's overcome.

How do you mean a monk can't access? do you mean they can't access hell?

It is easy to see people who are experiencing hell in this life - people with mental health problems or who have degenerative diseases with non-acceptance etc. There is an element of subjectivity in the experience, as your stories have indicated.

I think the idea of hell is that the more one is convinced it is the more it is.

[YesNo]

I think the point of it is that hell is a mind state which, as he's developed compassion, the monk can't access. hells are based upon hate, which he's overcome.

Heaven and hell do seem like mind states, or states of consciousness, and hate may be a good way to characterize it. Perhaps impatience would be another way. To think of these as locations is to position them too narrowly somewhere in space-time, but their reality is greater than space-time.

I suppose that is why the monk cannot access hell, and might be an answer to cacian's question. The only way the guy in the story got into hell was by a mistake on the part of the angels, or whatever they were, who put him there. In a sense he never was in hell either which is why he had no need to leave.

One thing that has occurred to me recently about incarnation is that the universe itself, because it had a beginning in the Big Bang, could also be considered as an incarnation, perhaps a base incarnation, upon which other incarnations could occur. That could lead to a different attitude toward the universe. Instead of the universe being something that has always been there, it is like a father or mother, itself an incarnation.

[Paulclem]

Heaven and hell do seem like mind states, or states of consciousness, and hate may be a good way to characterize it. Perhaps impatience would be another way. To think of these as locations is to position them too narrowly somewhere in space-time, but their reality is greater than space-time.

I suppose that is why the monk cannot access hell, and might be an answer to cacian's question. The only way the guy in the story got into hell was by a mistake on the part of the angels, or whatever they were, who put him there. In a sense he never was in hell either which is why he had no need to leave.

One thing that has occurred to me recently about incarnation is that the universe itself, because it had a beginning in the Big Bang, could also be considered as an incarnation, perhaps a base incarnation, upon which other incarnations could occur. That could lead to a different attitude toward the universe. Instead of the universe being something that has always been there, it is like a father or mother, itself an incarnation.

This sounds like the Hindu Creation Mythology which goes in cycles of creation, stability and destruction.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_th...creation_story

[YesNo]

I was under the impression that the world always was in Hinduism going through various cycles, but I see from this there is a creation story there as well. Perhaps I was thinking of Jainism. I often confuse the two. So Brahma created the world in Hinduism at Vishnu's request.

[Madhuri]

There are shlokas in the Vedas that you might find useful:

Translation of one:

But, after all, who knows, and who can say
Whence it all came, and how creation happened?
the gods themselves are later than creation,
so who knows truly whence it has arisen?

This is from the Nasadiya sukta of Rigveda. More on this: http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/vishnu/nasadiya.pdf