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Thread: movie to book and book to movie

  1. #16
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    I broke a rule a few months ago when I watched the BBC/PBS production of Wolf Hall before reading the two Hilary Mantel books on which it was based (Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bodies). Usually I read a book first so the interpretations of actors and directors don't get mixed up with the pictures and voices in my head. I was wringing my hands over this in one of the posts above (Mark Rylance's interpretation of Thomas Cromwell had been beyond masterful and I knew I would be stuck with it) when Whifflingpin told me--in effect--to stop whining: Mark Rylance was good enough for the likes of me.

    Having read both books now, I can report that we were both partially correct. I was right that I would be unable to rid myself of the image of Mark Rylance, but that cut both ways. For one thing, Thomas Cromwell did not look like Mark Rylance, at least based on the famous portrait that Hans Holbein painted of him. The real Cromwell lacked the actor's sad, patient, vaguely bemused face. If Holbein is to be believed (and it was a portrait), Cromwell ran to fat, with little piggish eyes and the face of a pissed off thug (which he was as a youth). Even Mantel comments on the discrepancy between Holbein's Cromwell and her own, who is often surprised (and sometimes offended) that others find in him the face of a killer. "Did you not know?" his own son asks him.

    But for me it was Rylance's voice that endured through the books, and about that Whifflingpin was right: it was good enough, and I'm not sure I could have come up with anything better on my own. Its calm control and competence while the sky (or Christendom in any case) seems to be falling in is what gives Rylance's Cromwell his peculiar force and likability. The only flaw in Rylance's characterization is that he makes Cromwell a little more sincere than Mantel wrote him. By the end of Bring Up the Bodies, Cromwell's ethics have worn pretty thin, even by Tudor-era standards. When Anne Boleyn (his one-time ally) will not go quietly, he initiates a miniature reign of terror in which he brings about the execution of men for whom he bears personal grudges, and get's off the hook a family friend (one of the few who may actually have been guilty of adultery with Boleyn), all as a pretext for sending her to the chopping block. That's right, Mantel seems to be saying, that's the way the real world works. And maybe she's right; but if so, shouldn't Cromwell at least sound like more of a killer by that point? In the books, his easy demeanor is to some extent a calculation meant to disarm. But in Rylance's performance it is just a little too sincere--a little too likable. And it sets him up to be too much of a victim when, in the still unpublished book (and presumed installation of the television series), --SPOILER ALERT-- he will follow Boleyn to the block only four years later. In some ways, he deserved what he got.

    But if Rylance intruded into my personal reading of the books, I was surprised by those who did not. Claire Foy's Anne Boleyn was intelligent and sexy (it takes broad talent to play as convincing an Anne Boleyn as a Little Dorrit), though personally I read the character a little differently. I saw her as more of an opportunist and less as a regal presence than Foy played her. (To be blunt, I saw her as a self-aware fraud--or is that true of all royalty?) Will Keen as Thomas Cranmer was a bigger problem. The part was grossly underwritten (though that is hardly Keen's fault). In history, Cranmer was at least as important as Cromwell in the English Reformation, and Mantel gives him an important role and a nuanced, believable character (he reminded me of a theology student I once knew). Keen does little more than blink frequently--apparently a mannerism of Cranmer's in--just to let you know who he is.

    But the actor who intruded least into my imagination was, oddly enough, the otherwise talented Damian Lewis as Henry VIII. And it's not that Lewis was having a bad day of acting, either. He is quite powerful throughout. But his characterization of Henry (or perhaps the director's) was different than Mantel wrote it in some important ways, and author's version is frankly the more interesting. Lewis plays Henry as a bully. He is Mr Big: he knows what he wants, and controls events far more than Mantel's Henry does. Cromwell has to scramble to keep up with his agenda. But what Lewis misses is that Henry as an alpha male is almost beside the point, although he was certainly was that, too. But Mantel's Henry is also (ironically) hopelessly awash in the bardic illusions of a chivalry. He is described again and again as the truest gentleman in Christendom; and he is genuinely shocked by the lurid tales that Cromwell's informers and victims cook up against his wife. In other words Henry lives in his own world: one in which the leader is not expected to be the dirtiest political dealer (that was Cromwell's job), but the greatest athlete of his day (as Henry was), the manliest man, and the most exemplary Christian gentleman. But as Mantel is also at pains to point out, these ideals (however realized they had ever been) were dying by Cromwell's time. Henry on the jousting field is already a dinosaur. The future belonged to people like Cromwell and even Anne--despite certain spectacular setbacks. So where (I suspect Mantel to be implicitly asking) does that leave royalty today? Where the British monarchy (between the which and Mantel there is remarkably little love lost)? Such considerations remain in the codpiece, so to speak, if Henry is just portrayed as the biggest d*ck of his day. But in Lewis' defense, he does deliver the best and funniest line in the series (taken straight from Mantel): "Call her Elizabeth. And cancel the joust!"

    But if some of the leads in the series left me alone as I was reading, I was surprised to see which of the supporting players did manage to shoulder their way in. Bernard Hill's Fielding-esque Duke of Norfolk was beyond resistance; I could not free my reading from his voice or his face (although the historical Thomas Howard looked nothing like that). Anton Lesser's Thomas More did not look much like the humanist intellectual (the author of Utopia), sadistic anti-Reformation persecutor, and Catholic saint and martyr whose beheading Cromwell engineered, either. (Ironically the historical More looked a little like Mark Rylance!) But Lesser's haunting voice--just needling enough, just self-pitying enough, just believable enough to be terrifying--stayed with me to the end. I read some of his lines out loud and I was surprised how well I could mimic him. And then there was Lady Rochefort, Anne Boleyn's venomous sister-in-law, a minor but important character in the book, who is played to tawdry perfection by Jessica Raine. I smiled every time the character appeared in writing because I could just hear Raine's jaded and slightly bitter voice: "Oh tra-la-la, tell it to the Commons!"

    So what do I get for breaking my own rules? More than I expected, I'll admit. But the Wolf Hall series was a powerhouse of talent, and Mark Rylance's performance alone would have justified a peek. I cannot help but think that I got lucky with this one. I hope they can get the actors back for the third installment.
    Last edited by Pompey Bum; 08-18-2015 at 09:05 AM.

  2. #17
    Watcher by Night mtpspur's Avatar
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    My nephew sent me the Jack Reacher movie on DVD so that was my first introduction to the character and I went out and very quickly zipped thru the books. I admit by Book 16 or so was getting just a wee bit tired of the aimless roaming but then the next book would bounce me back. The movie nows pales in comparison with the source material. I was fine with the Lord of the Rings movies until the third one where I felt the last part of the book was jettisoned in favor of a very dull celebration to make a point about changes that annoy. Golgol's novella Taras Bulba was a passable adventure film in the 1960s with Tony Curtis and Yul Brynner and it years before I managed to read the novella and discovered the final ending which the Russian version from a few years back DID reveal and that certainly has made me rethink the original film attempting to add as 'happy' an ending as they could without changing a huge plot point--no spoilers intended. Anyway just a couple of examples cited.

  3. #18
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    For me it really depends and it can go either way. I used to always like to read the book first before watching the movie, but so many books are made into movies these days (and often I haven't even heard of the book until the movie) that I kind of just let that go.

    I go in with the expectation that the movie and the book will likely have certain differences, so it doesn't surprise me when it happens and it usually doesn't spoil the book or the movie for me. If it is a book that I particularly love, and have very clear ideas about certain characters in my own mind then it is true I might have some disappointments in the movie if it doesn't live up to my own expectations. But I do make an effort to try and view the book and the movie as separate from each other.

    It is difficult not to in my head compare the book to the movie, but I make an effort to judge the movie not upon how closely or how well it followed the book, but purely based on as a movie, was it a solid, good, entertaining move.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

  4. #19
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    For me, it's a lot of fantasy novel adaptations that have difficulty maintaining fidelity with the text. Eragon, The Lightning Thief, both books I loved, had movie adaptations where the central style and voice that made the narrative compelling were no longer there. They retained the basic premise and plot of each to maintain a token relationship with the original version, but the parts that made each unique were gone.

    I was really impressed by the recent Gatsby film with Dicaprio and Raimi. The cinematography, for one, was beautiful, and worked in time with Nick's narration to evoke the central themes of the novel. And there's a pulsing orchestral theme from Lana Del Rey's "Young And Beautiful" that comes in whenever the green light appears that absolutely sells the meaning of the moment. So adaptations can work, but like a lot of people have said, it has to speak to the most central components of their source material, even if a few stylistic changes need to be made.

    But, the quintessential film adaptations, have been for me all the movies made of the works of William Shakespeare.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojGM...PPmd_RUgKulBlg

    That's a playlist I found one day that compiled twelve trailers from those films in the past fifty years or so, sort of as a list reference tool. I really liked the first two on the list, a new Love's Labours Lost (not the Kenneth Branagh version which was pretty forced), and Whedon's Much Ado About Nothing. The 2013 Tempest was also really fantastic, in terms of special effects and cinematography, but also in the power of the language. And the Henry V movie was well done, though not a terribly creative adaptation in setting or motifs.

    Cymbeline looks absolutely terrible. The play is ultimately a comedy (ends in a marriage, sons returned), but this adaptation is just way too serious. Parts of it are dark perhaps, but not to this degree.

    I'd love to see what ya'll think of these adaptations! What looks best to you? What looks worst?
    Last edited by Parabolous; 08-23-2015 at 02:08 PM.

  5. #20
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    Oops. the Tempest was 2010, my bad!

  6. #21
    I have rarely found a movie to be better than it's book counterpart, but I am biased. In my opinion, literature is the best form of media. Movies have their place, certainly, but there are too many moving parts during the creative process to ensure perfect translation of inspiration to reality. Even a director of singular vision and genius cannot wrangle a production by themselves. You have crews, actors, and etcetera, all contributing positively and negatively to a movie's creation. Writing is uniquely singular (disregarding editors, and such.)

  7. #22
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    Well, I don't think you'll find one better than its book counterpart, but you can find some of comparable quality in their respective fields, at least for viewers who have experienced the novel first. So long as the movie can find similar appeal, echo the positive traits of the book in its own format, we can say that it is good. Not better, but worthy of its inspiration.

  8. #23
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    needed somewhere to post what im thinking and I was able to dig this old thread up.

    im currently reading the Manchurian candidate and while I like the story, I really dislike the story telling and so ive been skipping parts like crazy and looking forward to the gosh darned thing to be over.

    in keeping with the thread---ive seen the remake of the movie many years ago, but its been so long that im not seeing liev schreiber or denzel Washington as the characters in the book. having seen the remake, and in an effort to make the book more enjoyable, I started watching the original with frank Sinatra and Laurence Harvey. the movies okay, but im still not really seeing the actors in my mind as I read the book. however, the movie watching has rescued the book at least a little bit because im enjoying looking for the similarities and departures.

  9. #24
    running amok Sancho's Avatar
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    M*A*S*H the movie was way better than the book it was inspired by, IMHO.
    Uhhhh...

  10. #25
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    its been so long since ive read or watched either but my memory is that the book lacked some of the depth and maybe some of the comedy and also grittiness the movie was able to convey.

    I didn't know this to the extent it exists:

    https://www.bookseriesinorder.com/mash/

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