I won't become a real Christian.

[The Atheist]

But how do I know if you're a real atheist or not?

Ah, but I'm not just an atheist, I'm The Atheist.

Why is this comment necessary? There's no harm in posting that. Some people may not have read that before, and those who did, it should be ok to re-read it, shouldn't it? We play the same songs and music over and over. If you don't want to read it, then skip over it.

I'm seeing a pattern of criticizing for the sake of criticizing. It's almost obsessive compulsive.

Then you're clearly not understanding, because trying to describe my comments as any type of obsession is pulling a very long bow.

Placing a bible extract isn't advancing any argument, far less one about being/not being christian.

Hey, it suits some people to spout tracts rather than advance a personal opinion, but if so, then it's my right to call it a spurious argument, which it is.

You need to trust me that if someone merely quoted The God Delusion I'd give it the same offence. I never did like parrots.

By all means, play the music as many times as you like, but play it at home.

[MarkBastable]

The trouble with posting an excerpt from the Bible in support of an argument for the existence of God is that unless you believe in God it's not an argument for the existence of God. The proposition is circular.

That often leads to the 'ears to hear' and 'seed on stony ground' arguments, which boil down, in the end to, 'you'd find it much easier to believe in God if you believed in God' and 'God said there'd be people like you, therefore he must exist'.

For the record - my interest in this is not so much the existence or otherwise of God, but the logic of the argument. As I say, the argument from the scriptures is circular, and I think it's fair to point that out. By doing so, I'm not saying that God doesn't exist - I'm just saying that that doesn't indicate that he does.

[virginiawang]

This thread started with a self-proclaimed devil going to a Bible class just to practice English, then expressed displeasure/disapproval in that experience. Not only that I failed to appreciate the irony, I found it quite distasteful. Plus the mean spirited, condenscending, combative nature of some comments, this thread has lost every sense of credibility and decency. Like others I will not return to this thread.

I never said I was displeased by attending a Bible class. In fact I said I had enjoyed the comapny of Chriatians since I was in college, but there had been some reasons which thwarted me from becoming a true Christian since a long time ago. So I started a thread here for the purpose of knowing more from people in this forum. As I said before, I've had the most sincere thanks for Christianity until now.

[Wintermute]

By doing so, I'm not saying that God doesn't exist - I'm just saying that that doesn't indicate that he does.

Greetings Mark,

I tend to agree with you. I think many folks are brought up in families where even questioning the truth of the Bible is unthinkable. As they mature it just becomes natural to say, "Well the Bible says.....".

What do you think would constitute absolute proof of the existence of any god, Christian or otherwise? Is it possible to prove such a thing in words?

Cheers,
Doug

[shahsaab1]

i still cant understand how someone can not create all this its kinda like when your in sand and you see foot steps you knew someone was there its the same way how it just seems that when we come to this world someone had to create the universe and all the planets and everything i just dont believe that this was already here for as scientist say 4.6 billion years it seems kinda impossible i think someone had to create it

[MarkBastable]

i still cant understand how someone can not create all this its kinda like when your in sand and you see foot steps you knew someone was there its the same way how it just seems that when we come to this world someone had to create the universe and all the planets and everything i just dont believe that this was already here for as scientist say 4.6 billion years it seems kinda impossible i think someone had to create it

Actually, when you put it like that, it does sound kinda persuasive....

[NikolaiI]

Hi,

Just an off topic observation/question: I've been away from this board for a while (4 months?) and I've noticed that the topics are pretty much the same. However there does seem to be a drop in the quality of pro-God arguments. What has happened to people like Pendragon (the gentle Christian) and RedZepplin (intelligent, slice-you-off-a-the-knees with bulldog persistance arguments)? Those folks were able to put forth well formed, intelligent arguments that facilitated learning and interest. In this thread at least, I see none of the old vigor--just boring, wishy-washy kind of arguments. Know what I mean?

Cheers,
Doug

It seems the same as ever. Still, argument is one thing I do not wish to engage in. God can only be perceived in complete peace. God is infinite peace, power, bliss and knowledge. This is not meant for argument, but just to present the idea and for discussion perhaps. The goal of argument is to win, while another loses - but my position is that "all are one." If I have made anyone feel as though they lost, then I did lose.

But conflict and competition are not the only way to communicate. As you know, I am sure. We can discuss and that is more facilitating to thought, I would reason, as arguments in general tend to become emotional, since they are usually based on defense of one's ego.

About Christianity, there is some good, and some bad. Dogmatic thinking is bad, but that goes for atheists as well as religionists. And religion is not necessarily dogmatic. It's just become sort of attached that way, based on the words and deeds of many religionists, and by general perception. I strongly agree with Shakyamuni Buddha's position that one should not accept something just because anyone says it, but only if it accords with everything they know to be true - or something like that.

My position is that God is Being, or Infinite Light. What is Being? To me it is that - infinite peace, bliss, the highest principle, infinite intelligence or knowledge. It's not bound, however, to any religion or dogma or ritual. It's the infinite life force or energy. So the question is, does an infinite life force, energy, exist?

The issue I would raise to everyone, if they remain skeptical, is this: what are we? We come from the earth. The earth comes from stars - star dust, is the common word. Anyhow - matter is energy and energy is matter. So I would ask - is it not true therefore that we are light? This is the reasoning that led me to my current idea that all is light. The only intelligence is perhaps our own conscious actions, in that our intelligence is higher than plant, animal, or bacterial intelligence. And yet if we came from light, and if we are in fact light, then must it be true that we are the highest intelligence? But there is no human who has the highest intelligence. Just as light follows the laws of physics, so do we humans, those of us who wish, follow the laws of the moral or spiritual realm; the highest law of which is the infinite intelligence, bliss, power and peace which is God.

[edit- by the question "must it be true that we are the highest intelligence?" I am referring to the idea that there is nothing higher than us.]

[The Atheist]

i still cant understand how someone can not create all this its kinda like when your in sand and you see foot steps you knew someone was there its the same way how it just seems that when we come to this world someone had to create the universe and all the planets and everything i just dont believe that this was already here for as scientist say 4.6 billion years it seems kinda impossible i think someone had to create it

Sorry, but I find this approach heavily ironic. Hard, scientific evidence "seems kinda impossible", but no evidence whatsoever of an invisible being creating the entire universe to populate less than 0.000000000000000000001% of it is believable.

Funny how the creator left no footprints.

[islandclimber]

Sorry, but I find this approach heavily ironic. Hard, scientific evidence "seems kinda impossible", but no evidence whatsoever of an invisible being creating the entire universe to populate less than 0.000000000000000000001% of it is believable.

Funny how the creator left no footprints.

and we're back at the beginning again.. so is any of this really necessary?

honestly though, there are many respected and eminent scientists, who believe exactly what Shahsaab said there.. and while it is obvious that this line of reasoning provides no proof of some form of creator god, it is also just as obvious that science does NOT provide any proof that there is no creator god/ divine impulse/ whatever you want to call it... being an atheist is all fine and dandy, I would even say I myself am an atheist for the most part, but to say that there is no "God" and to say this is fact is just as absurd as claiming that it is a fact there is a "God"...

as I said many very respected scientists believe that science itself points to the existence of some form of Creator God... this doesn't have to be at all at odds with any of science, with evolution or anything...

the biggest problem with religion is the way people so often try to impose it upon others... to have it thrust into the education system which is far beyond ridiculous.. but to imply that religious belief and spirituality suggest ignorance is just a way of showing one's own ignorance.. and arrogance for that matter...

[islandclimber]

by the way, great post Nikolai

[JBI]

and we're back at the beginning again.. so is any of this really necessary?

honestly though, there are many respected and eminent scientists, who believe exactly what Shahsaab said there.. and while it is obvious that this line of reasoning provides no proof of some form of creator god, it is also just as obvious that science does NOT provide any proof that there is no creator god/ divine impulse/ whatever you want to call it... being an atheist is all fine and dandy, I would even say I myself am an atheist for the most part, but to say that there is no "God" and to say this is fact is just as absurd as claiming that it is a fact there is a "God"...

as I said many very respected scientists believe that science itself points to the existence of some form of Creator God... this doesn't have to be at all at odds with any of science, with evolution or anything...

the biggest problem with religion is the way people so often try to impose it upon others... to have it thrust into the education system which is far beyond ridiculous.. but to imply that religious belief and spirituality suggest ignorance is just a way of showing one's own ignorance.. and arrogance for that matter...

Meh, it's not as if religious people don't preach enough about not knowing happiness or whatever by not believing in their religion - the Catholic church, for instance, preaches that I will burn in hell, so in a sense you are right.

Like I said before though, I don't see anyone ripping on Taoism, and it's no shocker as to why - the same with Buddhism.

[islandclimber]

Meh, it's not as if religious people don't preach enough about not knowing happiness or whatever by not believing in their religion - the Catholic church, for instance, preaches that I will burn in hell, so in a sense you are right.

Like I said before though, I don't see anyone ripping on Taoism, and it's no shocker as to why - the same with Buddhism.

Nope besides some hardcore atheists, who think all religion is evil no matter how innocent its outward appearance, the only people who rip on religions like Buddhism and Taoism are members of the big three Abrahamic religions, as belief in anything else is blasphemy.. I am just recalling a University Prof I was friends with that was also Catholic, telling me that the more she learned about Buddhism, the more ridiculous it seemed.. it was all hogwash..

[Wintermute]

Hi shahsaab1 and Mark,

i still cant understand how someone can not create all this its kinda like when your in sand and you see foot steps you knew someone was there its the same way how it just seems that when we come to this world someone had to create the universe and all the planets and everything i just dont believe that this was already here for as scientist say 4.6 billion years it seems kinda impossible i think someone had to create it

Actually, when you put it like that, it does sound kinda persuasive....

Doesn't it seem equally impossible that this 'someone' was just sitting around for infinity and then 6000 years ago decided to snap its omnipotent fingers and create a universe with our little planet being the entire focus of its attention? Seems like hope wrapped in ego to me.

Peace,
Doug

[Wintermute]

Hi Nikolai,

My position is that God is Being, or Infinite Light. What is Being? To me it is that - infinite peace, bliss, the highest principle, infinite intelligence or knowledge. It's not bound, however, to any religion or dogma or ritual. It's the infinite life force or energy. So the question is, does an infinite life force, energy, exist?

This sounds like the philosophy of one of my favorite jazz musicians, Sun Ra. Ever heard of him? I would encourage anyone to explore his music and his message. A warning: It takes some patience.

Also, I have received my copy of Living at the Source and read the introduction and the first few pages last night. Swami Vivekananda seems like a very interesting and gentle fellow. I look forward to my reading this weekend.

Cheers,
Doug

[MarkBastable]

Hi shahsaab1 and Mark,

Doesn't it seem equally impossible that this 'someone' was just sitting around for infinity and then 6000 years ago decided to snap its omnipotent fingers and create a universe with our little planet being the entire focus of its attention? Seems like hope wrapped in ego to me.

Peace,
Doug

One of these days I'm going to develop a font specifically for online forums, called Irony Sans Serif.