Gone With the Wind

[hellsapoppin]

Am on Ch 6 where Rhett Butler is introduced. Once again, I was struck by a possible allusion to the oft repeated Jewish Question.

All throughout the book repeated stereotypical matters are raised. For example, Gerald O'Hara is presented as a stereotype Irishman which predilection for the spirits, his love of horses, his fascination with anything green colored, his repeated longings for the old country, his patriarchal tyranny over his daughters, his quick temper and fisticuffs, etc. Then there is Mammy with endless repetition of the dreaded N word, there are "d@rkies" who rated just above them, and then there are "cr@ckers" and at the bottom of the barrel there are "white tr@sh".

Butler is a big man described as having a large forehead, hook nose, thick lips, and dark skinned ~ terms used to denote stereotypical Jews in the past. He is described as "not received" (unwelcome) and is said to be a seducer of women, a wealthy scion exiled from his family (Wandering Jew?), from Charleston, SC. He is manipulative, a trouble maker, wealthy, enterprising, a blockade runner & smuggler. Could all this mean that the writer was saying that he was a stereotypical Jew?

In 1862 virulent Jew hater General Benjamin Butler* (hmmm ~ Butler), a personal acquaintance of President Lincoln prosecuted several Jewish blockade runners and smugglers who led a corrupt operation from NYC to of all places Charleston, SC (Rhett's home town). While some have said that Rhett was based on a corrupt Confederate named Trenholm** (a wine importer, banker, and maritime operator), the linkage to stereotype Jews seem more than coincidental.

I tried to find some source online to see if this has been discussed previously but perhaps someone else may know if Mitchell intended to draw such parallels.




sources:

* https://www.shapell.org/manuscript/a...trayed-savior/

** https://shipwrecks.com/discovery_of_..._rhett_butler/

[bounty]

i found this, which is consistent and is more or less complementary with your second link, and that you might still enjoy:

https://columbiametro.com/article/a-...dventure-hero/

the word "stereotype" is interesting---the argument is that it comes from a human need to categorize and simplify, which I can agree with---and that its all a first step in discrimination and ethnic/racial bias, which I don't necessarily agree with.

anyway---are you liking the book?

[hellsapoppin]

i found this, which is consistent and is more or less complementary with your second link, and that you might still enjoy:

https://columbiametro.com/article/a-...dventure-hero/

the word "stereotype" is interesting---the argument is that it comes from a human need to categorize and simplify, which I can agree with---and that its all a first step in discrimination and ethnic/racial bias, which I don't necessarily agree with.

anyway---are you liking the book?

EXCELLENT article! Thanks for posting the link which should be read by all.

Yes, I agree 100% with your highly insightful definition of stereotype.

As for the book, indeed, I am enjoying. Am so sorry now that I had not joined in other exchange a little while back. My volume was a reprint from 1936 - the pages are dingy but still readable. I understand those sequels are quite good. Perhaps some day I'll get to them.

Haven't watched the movie in many, many moons. But I'm sure I'll watch it again some day as I was always quite a fan of extraordinarily beautiful Olivia de Havilland.

BTW, what did you think of the movie?

[bounty]

im glad you liked the article. its interesting that folks do that kinda work.

I once knew a man who had been friends with a guy who had been friends with zane grey, and that man (the one in the middle there) was the basis for a character in one of grey's books.

I decided to not watch the movie and for some reason its still not tempting me. could be the length of it, could be that I liked the book so much that I wanted to leave it at that.

in terms of your girl olivia---I thought "melanie" was a great character in the book.

[hellsapoppin]

Just a bit more on Butler ~ he was also described in Ch 8 as "swarthy and piratical" looking. In those days as part of the then existing stereotype, Jews were said to be the greatest pirates of the old days. Will continue to look for any further descriptions of him in the narrative.

Melanie, indeed, appears to be a great character. But, so far, the most interesting character in the Hamilton family is Uncle Peter - a slave who appears to be in command of the household.

[hellsapoppin]

@bounty and others ...


I hope this is not a dumb question but I'll give it a go anyways:

In this or in the dormant threads about GWTW did the issue of Is this a racist novel? come up? was there a consensus one way or the other?

I know that when the novel was re-issued not too long ago, there was an added advisory which suggested that it may have been so, was full of objectionable and out dated terms, and may have suggested some benign views of slavery, of stereotypes, and of segregation. That one should proceed with caution if they are about to embark on reading it.

Am up to Ch 11 and, so far, cannot honestly say that I find it racist. Yes, it does reflect some rather harsh, inhuman, demeaning, and down right stupid aspects of American life back in that era. But, so far, I cannot honestly say that Mitchell had written an apologia for all those terrible conditions. Had she defended any such thing, had she said that this is the way it should be today, tomorrow, and forever, that that d@mned be the one who dares object to this view, then I'd say it was racist. Again, so far, I have not seen any such elements. If there were any please point them out to me.

[bounty]

i haven't looked at any other threads on the book poppin, but when I resurrected this one, danik joined in and some of our interactions were about the question you raised. you might enjoy peeking back through those.

a fun question for you---if uncle peter is an interesting character, what does that say then in terms of "benign views of slavery?" (something else danik and I talked about a little).

a similar question can probably be asked about mammy.

[hellsapoppin]

I did thumb through the early posts but did not find any concrete determination or consensus on the issue I raised. Suffice it to say no on here found it rampantly racist which is my view (for now).

Much of the exchange dealt with Miss Scarlett which is understandable since she is the main character. But before I discuss her, I'd like to add just a bit more about Rhett Butler:

Again, he was described as "swarthy" (dark skinned). Then the narrative went into his industry which was blockade running. He dealt in wines, textiles, cargo, and other commodities that could be used in war. What struck me was the segment in which he was said to communicate quite readily with women about (of all things!) women's garments including under garments. Some women felt uncomfortable discussing this with him but he felt quite as ease on the subject. This is among the other Jewish stereotypes -- an obsession with women's under clothes*! And, of course, as we discussed in Maggie, A Girl of the Streets the garment industry was almost entirely controlled by Jews in that era.

Thus, once again I am led to conclude that Butler may well have been an example of a Jewish stereotype.





*https://shorturl.at/blnyB

[hellsapoppin]

In the narrative, writer Mitchell reveals that proper Southern gentlemen referred to ladies by their first names preceded by the title Miss. Frankly, I thought that this was a practice done only in the Northeast. I grew up that way referring to young ladies as Miss _______ followed by the first name. It was always (as in the book) a sign of respect.


One post above indicated that the poster felt she was not interested in the war. I disagree. In fact, she was quite interested in it. While she was initially bored and disgusted with talk of war, she later became angered that there were still men in the South of draft age who had not gone into combat. Then it says that she hoped the war would go on longer in the hope the South would win. She wants men to sacrifice for her despite all the moans and groans in the hospital she works in. Wow - what a sexist! On top of all that she is narcissistic, terribly shallow, totally indifferent to the pains others may be suffering, and more.

Miss Scarlett is very enterprising and eventually amasses considerable capital. This was rather unusual for the era. But her selfishness and obsessive character speaks badly for her. While defo being a very compelling person, a feminist model she is not. But then, given the times and the negative outlook of the era and the people therein, we would be hard pressed to find much to be admired in the book's many interesting characters.

[hellsapoppin]

Quote:

There is never but one reason for war. And that is money.


~Captain Rhett Butler



Ch 12, page 231



That remains true even unto this day.

[bounty]

to the point of defining terms---if theres a difference between a "racist book" and a book that has racism in it, we'd have to figure that out.

on another level, the term racism has been so overused and overapplied as to be almost meaningless, so the word itself would need some clarification.

I remember looking at scarlett as a sort of feminist precursor. she's full of traits some modern day feminists might admire, while rejecting other aspects of her.

I was actually surprised as concerns her when I read the book---I went in thinking she was going to be a tremendously admirable character, and in some ways she was, but on the whole, there was way too much about her that wasn't commendable.

im from the northeast poppin and spent most of my life here. I didn't grow up with the "miss ___" salutation though. I wonder if it was a generational thing, or maybe just very parochial. ive often associated with the south---and heck, I have to wonder now how much of that comes from how "miss scarlett" has infiltrated the popular lexicon. i wonder if maybe it shows up in some old northeast literature.

to ascribe or reduce war to a matter of financial gain is to discount the fallen nature of man as well as the need for self-defense, the execution of justice, and the preservation of liberty.

[hellsapoppin]

^ nice comment


Haven't gotten to it as of yet but IIRC from past accounts, the KKK was presented as being heroes (at least to some extent) in the book. I believe that this was the principle reason why some called it racist.

Yes, 'Miss' is, I suppose a generational thing. Interestingly, in the multi tenement building where I live, we used to have many seniors and some of the older ladies would refer to each other as Miss _____ (first name). Again, I don't see that anymore.

Ashley Wilkes's wife Melanie (née Hamilton) said war was caused by prejudices. Both Ashley and Butler said the war was a lost cause, nothing honorable about it. Interestingly, despite their bravery and honesty, they were viewed as "cowards" by some of those Confederate cynics. Very interesting dialog among them.

The one thing that stood out in the dialog that I have seen (or not seen) thus far is the fact that no one appears to have suggested that the war was about the promotion of slavery because (allegedly) it was a wholesome, god ordained, institution. Or, if it was said to be that way, I've missed it.

[hellsapoppin]

Tara's Theme was used in the old "Million Dollar Movie" in NYC back in the day:





What memories it brings back to me and the commentators there.

[bounty]

one of the really nifty things about music isn't it poppin, how it can elicit memories.

what youre writing is reminding me of something ive said to Sancho a few different times at least---the topics would make for great essays or masters thesis studies in English.

you might enjoy this poppin. ive watched it a few times now and continue to find it worthwhile:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXCAAZ8_fCM

[hellsapoppin]

^ Thanks for that excellent link.



I recently attended two high school baseball games and was quite pleased to see that students are still reading Brothers Karamazov and Huckleberry Finn. As we discussed previously, Dostoyevsky was a rabid anti Semite and Twain has been falsely accused of racism. Because of this, there have been efforts to censor these writings. But despite the unwarranted attacks upon these books by unknowing cynics, both are still being read with great interest and fervency. As an evolving society we simply cannot afford to close our eyes, hearts, and minds to the events of the past as we would lose far more than we could possibly gain by setting it all aside.

Years ago I was a member of an American history web forum which is now inactive. We would do a group reading of an American history book without any limitations on the subjects discussed. Whenever I made my concluding remarks on the book I would preface it with PAST IS PROLOGUE. This because indeed, there is nothing new under the sun. We must always keep an open mind to what has happened in the past and we must continue to glean any and all lessons that we can from those events.