# Reading > Forum Book Club >  Joyce/ Portrait - Discussion Thread

## Shore Dude

James Joyce, _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_

I read the introduction last night (Oxford World's Classic edition). I will not explain in detail, but list some thoughts I found interesting. This way, you all can discover your own analysis and ideas.

Early reviewers of _Portrait_ characterized Joyce's writing as 'invincible honesty'. Others described his 'intellectual integrity, his sharp eyes, and his ability to set down precisely... He is a realist of the first order'. Joyce received mixed response from his 'sheer undecorated, unintensified truth', however, no doubt that he was one of the early sculptors of Modernism.

As Joyce has described, he meant the novel to be 'almost autobiographical' (and in a reversal that had *life imitating art*). The novel traces the growth and development of an individual to the point that he or she walks out of the novel on the last page seemingly self-determined and self-determining.

_Portrait_ shows Joyce compressing, selecting the salient detail, arranging things to suit the aesthetic pattern of the novel, not to accord with the timing of his own life history. Things happen in this novel because of their significance to the portrait of Stephen that Joyce wishes to draw, because they reveal something about him (and the culture in which he exists).

The themes that will exfoliate over the course of the novel are sounded: Irish history, politics and religion brought into the intimacy of family marked by the conflict between Irish Catholicism and English Protestantism; family's and society's inculcation of heterosexual norms; the expectation that moral behavior can be elicited and enforced through the threat of punishment; the aesthetic disposition of life (where 'art, alters nature').

This is a nice vantage point... and commence with the discussioning.

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## crisaor

Sorry, just remembering that this book is available on the site here , in case anyone doesn't know or prefers it rather than buying the book. I'm have little time to spare right now, but I'll comment on it as soon as possible.

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## Jester

the number of books that im reading jsut jumped up to nine, including this one... i started reading it last night at it seems disjointed, im only a couple of pages in but its hard to get a handle on whats really going on. anybody else feel that way? Does it get easier to read as you go?

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## subterranean

I don't mean to be rude here, but please do post regarding our book of the month only, and not about other issues.

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## subterranean

Shore Dude, that's an interesting post. But I dont know why the review doesn't give comment (even in brief?!) about the religious aspect of the story.

I also found an interesting preface of the the book, which is a translated edition. The publisher stated that Joyce's are among the hardest literature works which are hard to understand, either from the ideas or the language point of views. But personally i think this is why his works are enjoyable (well at least that's what i think after reading thru page 65-so far). I mean it would challenge me to dig deeper to understand the essence of the story. 
And there's another interesting comment, it says that Joyce's works surpass the quality of Milton's, Dante's and Cervantes'. Now I dont know whether this review overrated Joyce's works or not (perhaps anyone could give an opinion about this). 
That's so far I can write so far.

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## Shore Dude

Sub, you are correct. There is a large religious aspect to this novel, which I will just go back and add in to my post (for thoroughness). I think the religious themes are also juxtaposed with the political themes. Because (if I am not mistaken) right around late 1800s/ early 1900s, Ireland was struggling for independence from England. So there existed a clash between Irish Catholics and English Protestants.

And as you guys mentioned, this is a tough book to read. I remember we read this my senior year in college for a lit theory class. I didn't know what was going on...

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## Jester

I read some more of it last night and it did indeed get clearer to understand... that first couple of pages is confusing, anybody have any idea what's going on there before he gets to the school?

I'm reading Dante at the moment as well and I find his poetry enjoyable but I don't think you can compare the two becuase after all they are two completly diffferent genres... 

In Joyce's novel does Dante resembe the poet in anyway? When I first read that, thats what I thought and it took me a while to realize that Dante was a female not a male.

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## subterranean

I think it was a just brief story about Stephen's childhood, about his familiy and his hang out friends when he was just a little kid.


[quote]I'm reading Dante at the moment as well and I find his poetry enjoyable but I don't think you can compare the two becuase after all they are two completly diffferent genres...[/qoute]


yea, i'm quite agree with yours

Dante was actually a former devout nun. So far (till page 107) no explanation in the story about why she decided not to be one

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## papayahed

I think he was just giving us a little insight into his family life. This morning while flipping station there was a movie on called "Parnell", pretty funny since I didn't know he even existed until I opened this book.

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## Jester

Here's a question for Catholic raised in boarding schools, Stephan thinks, "be in bed before the gas was lowered so that he might not go to hell when he died." Is he talking in teh literal sense and are children actually taught to believe this (not trying to be offensic or sarcastic, just curious, tone is so hard to convey in writing).

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## subterranean

personally i think he did took it literally..infact he was just a kid who went to school where religions are strictly applied. read thru until the section where he considered himself a sinner with what he did, and this point of view somehow related to the teachings he used to have as kid (IMO)

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## papayahed

I didn't go to boarding school but I did go to catholic school. I don't think he was taught to be in bed by the time the light went out or he was going to hell. I think it was a leap that kids make ( I know I did): From what i remember we were told to be "good kids" (ie. say your prayers, listen to your teachers and parents, etc.) because bad kids went to hell. So, by that logic a kid that broke the rules (not being in bed on time) was a bad kid, therefor a kid who wasn't in bed on time was going to hell.

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## subterranean

well dont you think that he did took it literaly? 
bed on time = heaven
not bed on time = hell

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## Jester

hmmm.... okay thanks.

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## papayahed

> well dont you think that he did took it literaly? 
> bed on time = heaven
> not bed on time = hell



No, if he took it literally someone would have to have told him that if he wasn't in bed on time he would go to hell. I think he was taught right from wrong in such a way that using kid logic he came to the conclusion on his own.

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## subterranean

well i dont know, i read the whole verses of the Revelation when i was still in the elementary school and i took them all literary. Even with the dragon and the horsemen things.

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## Shore Dude

It's definitely open to discussion.

If you think about the novel... it's somewhat autobiographical. The focus is Stephen's transition from childhood into adulthood, where his path is that of an unconventional, aesthetic livelihood. Stephen is growing, rather blossoming into a person who has a deeper appreciation than your typical person for the nature of things. The way papaya is setting this up, it could be a great example of characterization  Joyce indiscreetly attempting to get in the mind of a child, to portray the mind of a child.

In a literal sense, yes it is possible that bad things sent you to hell. However, it seems to make the characterization of Stephen more complex or rich to think that perhaps he is using his imagination to interpret religion, much like he interprets other aspects of life.

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## Scheherazade

I do not think when Steve refers to his need to 'be in bed before thegas was lowered so that he might not go to hell when he died', he means that 
bed on time = heaven
not bed on time = hell.

I believe what he suggests that he needs to have said his prayers by the time lights go out. The reference to the light has more to do with the fact that as a little boy he is afraid of the dark (which is clearly stated in the previous paragraph). So as a good Christian boy he knows he needs to say his prayers before going to bed to go to heaven;but still as a young boy who is scared of the dark, he wants to do what is expected of him quickly before the light is off.

What we are reading is the thought process of a young boy, which explains the sudden subject and mood changes. Although I am still reading the first chapter, I have, much to my surprise, enjoyed it and would like to carry on.

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## Scheherazade

Is anyone actually reading this book???  :Rolleyes:

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## subterranean

what is that suppose to mean..? do you think i was just babling there with my posts without actually reading it?

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## Scheherazade

Sub, I was asking in general as it seems like there are very few people posting... I am sorry that you take it personally.

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## subterranean

> Is anyone actually reading this book???



well perhaps u shouldn't use the words "anyone" and "actually"

no problem sche

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## Scheherazade

> well perhaps u shouldn't use the words "anyone" and "actually"
> 
> no problem sche


OK, here is my edited version - upon Sub's request:


*Is <deleted> <deleted> reading this book?*


Hence:


*Is reading this book?*



*hopes this pleases *everyone**  :Rolleyes:

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## subterranean

Now, i dont like things going on here..

Sorry for my previous posts..

Let's "shake hands" shall we?! Cause i dont like that roll eyes of yours.

Cheers Sche  :Smile:

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## subterranean

> I believe what he suggests that he needs to have said his prayers by the time lights go out. The reference to the light has more to do with the fact that as a little boy he is afraid of the dark (which is clearly stated in the previous paragraph). So as a good Christian boy he knows he needs to say his prayers before going to bed to go to heaven;but still as a young boy who is scared of the dark, he wants to do what is expected of him quickly before the light is off.
> 
> What we are reading is the thought process of a young boy, which explains the sudden subject and mood changes. Although I am still reading the first chapter, I have, much to my surprise, enjoyed it and would like to carry on.



Maybe i dont get a better understanding becoz, i'm reading a translation version, which most often, uses different words. And this caused a mis-interpretation of the real meanings as well. Ok, to make it clear, maybe we can dig deeper whether he did took it literary or not with questioning, how old was he at that time ? He was just a boy...maybe an elementary kid

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## Scheherazade

I don't think the light had anything to do with the going to hell/heaven. He simply wants to finish his prayers and be in his bed by the time they turn the light off because he is afraid of the dark.

And yes, he was pretty young at the time, maybe elementary school age.

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## Scheherazade

The following section is from Chapter 2 (towards the end of, just before the section Stephen goes to Cork with his father):


* When he came out on the steps he saw his family waiting for' him at the first lamp. In a glance he noted that every figure of the group was familiar and ran down the steps angrily.
-- I have to leave a message down in George's Street, he said to his father quickly. I'll be home after you.*  

I have kept reading it more times than I am willing to admit here but somehow I cannot understand his unwillingness to avoid his family or the reason for his anger. Any suggestions?

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## subterranean

I'll think about that later. And you were rite...where are other people who voted for the book?

Shame on you peeps for not joining us  :Flare:

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## Scheherazade

Hmmm, good thing you reminded that. Where are they really? Remember who they were?

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## subterranean

crisaor, erik son of chuck, nemerov, monica, hye young, caspian..

well crisaor is been busy, but dunno bout the rest

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## Scheherazade

*gasps*
There is the infamous six (thought 7 people voted for that book?)... Haven't seen eric for sometime. Maybe he is busy too...

PS: Shall we start a nomination thread for the next book?

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## subterranean

well maybe...i dont know whther it's too early or not..

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## Scheherazade

One week for nominations and two weeks for the voting---> December 15th! Voila!
I was thinking maybe we should choose a short book for the next month so we can finish it by January and go back to monthly cycle of book readings... What do you say?

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## subterranean

then from 16 dec to end o the month read? and dont forgot it's for january coz this one is for nov and dec

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## Scheherazade

Yeah, I was thinking we could read a short book from Dec 16-31 and choose another one for January... 
Hopefully, we should be able to finish with the Artist by mid December??
*gets ambitious*

OK, I am showing my true colours. I am a geek (and proud of it, thank you!  :Biggrin:  )

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## subterranean

Oh i can see that you are since the first days u got here  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin: 


well ok..then. i mean there arent many who participate as well... :Frown: ..so dont really need to keep the artist too long

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## Scheherazade

> Oh i can see that you are since the first days u got here


I will take that as a compliment!  :Biggrin:

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## Jester

move over another geek coming through... id be happy to start the next nomination round.... not me perosnally start it but lets see.... not likely to finish portrait byu the end of the month... hmm... what to do we kind of sidetracked didn't we?

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## papayahed

> The following section is from Chapter 2 (towards the end of, just before the section Stephen goes to Cork with his father):
> 
> 
> * When he came out on the steps he saw his family waiting for' him at the first lamp. In a glance he noted that every figure of the group was familiar and ran down the steps angrily.
> -- I have to leave a message down in George's Street, he said to his father quickly. I'll be home after you.*  
> 
> I have kept reading it more times than I am willing to admit here but somehow I cannot understand his unwillingness to avoid his family or the reason for his anger. Any suggestions?



I think he was angry because the girl he was with on the tram (the one that his friend alluded to being present at the play ) wasn't standing there with his family. "*In a glance he noted that every figure of the group was familiar and ran down the steps angrily.*"

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## Shore Dude

> I don't think the light had anything to do with the going to hell/heaven. He simply wants to finish his prayers and be in his bed by the time they turn the light off because he is afraid of the dark.
> 
> And yes, he was pretty young at the time, maybe elementary school age.


He was actually at University when this occurred. Which kind of takes the child-aspect of thought, where he was simply afraid of the dark, out of the interpretation. 

Yes, he could have been regressing in some ways, but it seems more his intrepretation of "right" versus "wrong" -- using the idea that _any_ person should have his or her prayers completed before lights out, because that was what was _right_ or the appropriate thing to do at a religious school.

He had a lot of pressure, from his family, from the school, from social conformities -- to be a good practicing Catholic. It shows an example of the oppressive nature of his life. And the life Stephen wants to lead, a result of his unocontrollable emotions and feelings, is that of a cathartic, expressive nature. The Catholic faith was not permitted to be _interpreted_ like other aspects of his life.

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## Scheherazade

He was not at university when this happened. It is in Chapter 1;it is when he was first sent to the boarding school.

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## Shore Dude

Check out the part where Stephen is interacting with the boys on the playground. Right after one of the kids asks Stephen about his name, he said something rude to Stephen.

Stephen then said to himself: "That was not a nice expression. His mother had told him not to speak with the rough boys in the college."

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## Scheherazade

The college mentioned, Clongowes Wood College, is a boarding school, which was also attended by Joyce himself when he was young. 

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/jjoyce.htm

It was not a Collge/University in today's sense. And the sentence you mention points out how young he was at the time as it is hard to imagine someone who attends university to think like that: "His mother had told him not to speak with the rough boys.."

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## papayahed

Speaking of the girl from the party that he rode the tram with, why wasn't her name given? Is it given later (I'm halfway through chap. 2, i think)?

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## Scheherazade

It is Emma Clery (E- C-) It is mentioned later on.

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## Scheherazade

I have just finished reading Chapter 3 and oh my!  :Eek2:  That was one of the most dreadful piece of reading I have had to do I think... The references to religion was gloomy with constant mention of sin, punishment and hell... I feel like I have been there and back after finishing that chapter...

Papaya> I have read the part where he gets angry again and I think you are right that he is angry that the girl is not there. Thank you very much  :Smile:

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## papayahed

speaking of Chapter 3, in the beginning when the rector is talking about the retreat, it has a line about Stphens heart withering: *A little wave of quiet mirth broke forth over the classof boys from the rector's grim smile. Stephen's heart began slowely to fold and fade with fear like a withering flower.* A few lines down it mentions his heart fading like a flower again. What's that all about?

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## Jester

im stilll in chapter one but whats smugging?

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## subterranean

Thank you for continuing the discussion guys. I haven't read further. Bit tired these days. I'll catch up this weekend and perhaps I might get some new insights  :Smile:

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## Scheherazade

> im stilll in chapter one but whats smugging?


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=67&q=smugging

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## Jester

um.... thanks scher but that doesn't explain why the kids are either getting expelled or whipped for it...

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## Scheherazade

The boys who were caught 'smugging' were experimenting with homosexuality which was not accpetable at the time... which led to their expulsion.

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## Jester

ahhh okay, that makes more sense, thanks

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## Scheherazade

> speaking of Chapter 3, in the beginning when the rector is talking about the retreat, it has a line about Stphens heart withering: *A little wave of quiet mirth broke forth over the classof boys from the rector's grim smile. Stephen's heart began slowely to fold and fade with fear like a withering flower.* A few lines down it mentions his heart fading like a flower again. What's that all about?


I am finally reading the final chapter (YAY!) and come across some other references to 'flower/s'... in similar contexts... I am going out on a limb here but would like to suggest that the flower reference signifies how Joyce sees the children or young minds maybe. They are fresh and beautiful but under the constant scrutiny of religion and moral code, they cannot help but 'wither'... 

Or maybe it isn't young minds only but that of an artist specifically... A creative mind needs to be free and away from restrictions to develop and prosper.

Someone, please, tell me that I am not babbling and I actually make sense!  :Biggrin:

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## subterranean

I finished chapter 3..phew....but end up in a blur understanding.. Guess I have to re-read again. But somehow I get the message of this spiritual fight between paying a true respect to God or being a genuine hypocrit

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## Scheherazade

Agree with you. I also felt it was about his religious identity and the place of religion in his life. 
Did you also feel that the book has an interesting structure? It starts with childish babble, light and breezy and gets darker and darker... Like descending into a hole... chapter 3 is the worst, darkest part... and then the mood starts to change again, getting lighter, becoming less 'inflicting-suicidal-tendencies-upon-the-reader' kind... and this goes on till the end, as if climbing up, out of the hole again... 

I am glad you are also reading it, Sub. It seems like there are only 4-5 people who are.

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## subterranean

Yeah, i'm trying to finish it Scher...

True that chapter 3 is so dark...Gosh this lad is just 16 yo..I don't know that a young boy could have such a heavy moments dealing with sins and all...but maybe if you study in Cath school..

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## Scheherazade

Also, he is different from the other boys around him... which might be implying his artistic tendencies and sensitivities

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## subterranean

Yes, I noticed that Joyce didn't mentioned any of the lad's schoo mates who experienced the same anxiety. It seems that it's just he's alone who has that kind of point of view about sins and punishments

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## Scheherazade

And maybe the only one who 'sinned' that way too?

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## papayahed

> Yes, I noticed that Joyce didn't mentioned any of the lad's schoo mates who experienced the same anxiety. It seems that it's just he's alone who has that kind of point of view about sins and punishments


I think I disagree with this, I don't believe he was the only one with that point of view on sinning and religion. I believe that it just wasn't talked about amongst your peers. That happens all the time with teenagers (at least from what I remember) you think your the only one with a problems but then years later you find out everbody had the same problem.

I agree with the tone of the book, light and airy when he was young, then dark when he was a teen listening to his teachers and priests, and finally I believe he's starting to think for himself and realizes that the preists might not always be right and it becomes lighter again.

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## subterranean

That's the thing Papay, at first I also thought like that. But then I figured, why Joyce didn't even mentioned at all that such thing wasn't something that you talked about among peers. I mean Joyce didn't even mentioned that Stephen had a little hope that he wished he could share his religious burden.

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## Jester

sorry guys, haven't felt like reading the book in a while so im still on chapter one  :Blush:

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## subterranean

Oh...shame on you Jester  :Biggrin:   :Biggrin:   :Smash:

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## papayahed

Whooo Hooo!!!! I finished this infernal book last night!!! Sheesh what a read.

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## Scheherazade

So jealous!! I still have another 20 pages to go  :Rolleyes:

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## papayahed

I'm not understanding the point of the last couple of pages where he's arguing with his friends? Not to mention the part were it's like he's writing in a journal?

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## Scheherazade

His artistic discussions with his friends?? I was thinking about that as well... And wondered they are simply there to show that he has moved on... He is not worried about religion anymore and he is concentrating more on aesthetic side of life.

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## papayahed

That could be, but did it have to be sooo long?

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## Shore Dude

Sorry guys, I too, have dropped the ball on this one. I am stuck in a little religious rut with Chapter 3. And there are other things that are grabbing my attention...

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## Jester

hey.... i got three weeks of absolutly nothing to do if i dont get a job over christmas which leaves reading... lots and lots of reading... ill get this one done by the end of the month, i hope

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## subterranean

> I'm not understanding the point of the last couple of pages where he's arguing with his friends? Not to mention the part were it's like he's writing in a journal?


So Papay, what's the main point of the entire book?

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## papayahed

I dunno, my best guess is that it's a "coming of age" book.

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## Scheherazade

Just finished the book (literally, 5 minutes ago) and some questions floating in my mind:
1. He is doesn't mind learning and speaking in Latin in his daily life but refuses speak/learn Irish?
2. Why all the references to the birds in the last pages?
3. Is he an Othello on the make with all his suspicions?
4. The diary signifies that he is finally 'in peace' and honest and open with himself?
5. You can take the man out of religion but you cannot take the religion out of man?(re.his reference to the girl as a pure one - will find the passage for this one)

I have not thought about these questions myself yet... Maybe they are very obvious but just wanted to post them as an immediate reaction when I finished the book, wondering what you all think...

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## papayahed

> Just finished the book (literally, 5 minutes ago) and some questions floating in my mind:
> 1. He is doesn't mind learning and speaking in Latin in his daily life but refuses speak/learn Irish?


I think Latin was part of the school curriculum, he didn't have a choice. As for refusing to speak Irish I would guess that he didn't want to be associated with any group.

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## Scheherazade

Although I agree with you that he didn't have a choice other than learning Latin at school, in later chapters, he seems to be using it in his daily life while at university. It feels as if he is almost happy to do so (intellctual snobbery?).

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## Scheherazade

> 5. You can take the man out of religion but you cannot take the religion out of man?(re.his reference to the girl as a pure one - will find the passage for this one)


Here is the text from the book:
"And if he had judged her harshly? If her life were a simple rosary of hours, her life simple and strange as a bird's life, gay in the morning, restless all day, tired at sundown? Her heart simple and wilful as a bird's heart?"
Although he seems to be distancing himself from religion, he is still trying to see the girl as pure as possible... So maybe he is not as free of religious teachings as he would like to believe?

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## subterranean

> Although I agree with you that he didn't have a choice other than learning Latin at school, in later chapters, he seems to be using it in his daily life while at university. It feels as if he is almost happy to do so (intellctual snobbery?).



Perhaps Scher, I mean schollar used to do this perhaps. Like the story of Jude the Obscure.

And for your 5th Q, well we should know first how's religion defined in the story.

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## papayahed

> So maybe he is not as free of religious teachings as he would like to believe?



Probably, during his formative years most of his upbringing and schooling were religious based, his whole thought process has to be affected by it in some way or another.

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## subterranean

I agree with you there Papay, IMO it's a little hard for someone who was brought up in a strict religious tradition, to really "untie" him/her self from religious bonds.

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## Jester

i had a dream last night that i was only like twenty pages from the end and i woke up think that was true, but i haven't even gotten through chapter one... hmmmm

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## subterranean

You know, that's totally a sign for you Liz. U must finish it soon, otherwise it'll keep haunting your sleep.

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## Scheherazade

Jester> If you have the time and dedication, do read the Artist... It won't go into my favorites list but I think it is a good reading experience...

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## hye young

i read all this thread and finally found how silly i am. i thought i already read this one and if i read it one more time i could remember the whole story and join the discussion. sorry about my lame excuses. i'm reading it now but can't tell when i can finish it. hard to follow...  :Frown: 

okay. stay warm.

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## Scheherazade

> i read all this thread and finally found how silly i am. i thought i already read this one and if i read it one more time i could remember the whole story and join the discussion. sorry about my lame excuses. i'm reading it now but can't tell when i can finish it. hard to follow... 
> 
> okay. stay warm.


Feel free to join in the discussions whenever you feel ready as the threads about book discussions are always open.

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## papayahed

What do you guys think, how much of this book was Joyce's personnel experience and how much was embellsihment?

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## Scheherazade

I have done some reading about Joyce's life while reading the book, wondering the same thing as you do, Papaya. Looking at these sites 

*http://www.robotwisdom.com/jaj/#biog

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/jjoyce.htm*

it seems like the general lines of the story is based on Joyce's own experiences and he did mean it kind of an autobiography.

I have found this quote very interesting, to say the least:

"The only demand I make of my reader," Joyce once told an interviewer, "is that he should devote his whole life to reading my works." 

(from the latter site mentioned above)

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## hye young

hm.. finally i finished chapter 1 and i think chapter one is definetly his childhood experience at boarding school. i can say that the speaker is joyce himself describing what he'd felt as a little kid when the jesuit-run school is all world to him. i could feel his confusion among the grown-ups conversation at Christmas dinner table and his embarassment when Father Dolan pandied him. and at last he somehow speaks out his mind when he really went up to rector's room and tell how he broke his glasses and feared for he might get pandied again. i think that moment is his growing up a little bit. well... i have to go on and read next chapter and learn more. 
i guess you guys were having holidays while there're no new posts.  :Smile:

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## subterranean

Ok read few pages from chapter IV before bed last nite. Almost forgot the whole story. Ok, I think the first pages of this chapter described how Sthepen tried so hard to adapt to his "cage" of religious obidience. I call it cage because he found no spiritual satisfcation doing all those rules and he felt so dry inside. I know from the excerpt in the book that Sthepen evetually become a man without any religion, but don't know how and why. So suppose I should read further first.

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## Tanya Sharma

I seem to be way behind everybody else but I'm glad to report that I have actually got as far as that little passage! You'll remember that the girl he had a crush on and almost ... but not quite kissed on the bus had also come to see the play. Perhaps he was angry at not seeing her there with his family and that's why he rushed off. 

I'm not sure if I'm a member of the book club, since I'm reading it out of necessity rather than pleasure. How does one become a member in the first place? 

Oh and thanks Schere for replying to my post ... since you were the first and so far only

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## nikkitten

well.. from what I gathered, he was upset because he assumed that E. girl was going to be at the performance... and he was so excited to see her there that, upon seeing only his family waiting for him, he was upset and disappointed.

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## graeme6

For the people that think they struggled with the book in college, I had to read it in grade 11

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## playeru

English is not my first language and this was one of the first books in english I read. That was not a good ideea. I should have started with something more simple. But anyway, I read it, I realized It was something special, but you know, at 10 pages a day, It was a drag. Maybe I'll read i again some day as I improved my english since.

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## longford

Is anyone still active on this post? Joyce novice here with just a few comments.

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## Scheherazade

Welcome to the Forum, Longford.

If you post your comments, I am sure some people will respond  :Smile:

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## easyaccesschina

Thanks for your reply S. The last post was quite a while back. I really think it's finished. Thank You Bill V NYC

S. In reply to one of your previos posts. You posit that Joyce may have been a bit of a snob. You are quite right. He is a snob and so are most of his characters. He uses Latin to display his erudition. However, he did attend Jesuit schools. The Jesuits then, and now, run first rate schools and the Classics are generally mandatory. Actually, not a bad idea,
longford

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## Scheherazade

> He uses Latin to display his erudition. However, he did attend Jesuit schools. The Jesuits then, and now, run first rate schools and the Classics are generally mandatory. Actually, not a bad idea,
> longford


Not sure if knowing Latin or having a good education is excuse enough to be a snob.

I think simply reading the quote that people should devote their lives reading his novels really put me off Joyce.

Say that; then, go ahead and write something like _Finnegan's Wake_; sweet!  :Tongue:

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## longford

Touche. Well said. He was probably very insecure.

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## dfloyd

be a snob!

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