# General > General Chat >  Daily puzzles/problems.

## Senior2315

Well, I thought it would be a fun idea to post random puzzles and problems. This would be a daily event, or until someone solves the given problem. The answerer would then add a new problem, they would have to have an answer and possible explanations for other feasible answers. 

Question #1. "I'll Make A WISE PHRASE" is an anagram for what/who/where?

----------


## kasie

William Shakespeare.

#2. This is one of my favourite crossword clues - I felt it applied to me as a student: _She writes mechanically, producing nothing original_. (4,6)

----------


## Serena03

Jane Austen? If correct, I'll have to get back to you on a puzzle.

----------


## kasie

Jane Austen, writing mechanically? Producing nothing original? Certainly not!! Try again....

----------


## Serena03

Was she not a consistent writer? As far as her works being completely original, I was never aware of her inspirations. But that clue could describe a lot of people.

----------


## prendrelemick

Is it copy typist, or is it altogether more subtle?

----------


## kasie

Quite right, Mick - but not subtle at all - it came out of a Daily Telegraph crossword....  :Smile: 

Your turn.

----------


## prendrelemick

Here's one for all those under 30's (This is the kind of thing we used to know before the digital age.)

As I was going to St Ives,
I met a man with seven wives,
Each wife had seven sacks,
Each sack had seven cats,
Each cat had seven kits,
Kits, cats, sacks,wives how many were going to St Ives?

I know everyone will have heard it, but I enjoyed reliving some childhood here.

----------


## kasie

I'll let someone else put the answer to that old chestnut, Mick!

And don't you dare follow up with the one about the man looking at a photograph saying 'That man's father was my father's son' or however it went. I know the answer but I could never unravel it.

----------


## kilted exile

That would be just the one (yourself) mick

A man and his two sons need to cross a river there is only one row boat which can hold a max weight of 14stones. The man is 14stones and his sons both weigh 7. how do all 3 get across (none can swim)?

----------


## Tallefred

> That would be just the one (yourself) mick
> 
> A man and his two sons need to cross a river there is only one row boat which can hold a max weight of 14stones. The man is 14stones and his sons both weigh 7. how do all 3 get across (none can swim)?


The two sons cross, one returns for the father, who crosses alone, then the so on the far side brings the boat back across and the brothers cross together.

An eye in a blue face
Saw an eye in a green face.
"That eye is like to this eye"
Said the first eye,
"But in low place
Not in high place."

----------


## prendrelemick

> I'll let someone else put the answer to that old chestnut, Mick!
> 
> And don't you dare follow up with the one about the man looking at a photograph saying 'That man's father was my father's son' or however it went. I know the answer but I could never unravel it.



Is that the one where you end up being your own Grandad? :FRlol: 


Tallefred:The answer is the Sun looking down on a daisy in a meadow. I'll try and think of something more original, but in the meantime, as my 10 year old daughter once asked me:- Whats brown and sticky?

----------


## MarkBastable

_Whats brown and sticky?_ 

A stick.


Crossword clue: SGEG (9,4)


Incidentally, I suspect one could look any of these up on the internet, but only a cad or a bounder would do such a thing.

And on the St Ives thing, even as kid I thought that was a cheat. People often meet - in fact one might say they were more likely to meet - on their way to the same place. If they didn't, there'd be no _Canterbury Tales_.

----------


## prendrelemick

Thats just what I thought, but I preferred that answer to doing the maths.

SGEG is tricky, I've got "sergeants" stuck in my head and can't progress.

----------


## MarkBastable

Okay - no progress, so I'll give you the answer, shall I?

----------


## iamnobody

scrambled eggs

A body was discovered next to a home, foul play was suspected.
The time of death was estimated to be 0200 hours.
The victim was male, around 20 years old.
There were cigarette butts found next to the victim.
What was the victim's name.

----------


## Leland Gaunt

John Doe?

----------


## iamnobody

no luck this time

but thanks for playing

----------


## Triter

The same as it is currently.

----------


## iamnobody

cheater, NAME please

----------


## Triter

SMOKEy ROBinSON!!!!?

----------


## iamnobody

uh, no

----------


## Leland Gaunt

> SMOKEy ROBinSON!!!!?


 :Smilielol5:  

I've exhausted all my puzzle tricks, and will look at it with a fresher mind in the morn.

----------


## Basil

The juxtaposition of the words home and foul keep making me think it's baseball related, but that is almost certainly incorrect. At least I _hope_ it's incorrect.

----------


## iamnobody

It is incorrect.

----------


## iamnobody

A hint

punctuation is key

----------


## MarkBastable

Assuming that this...


_A body was discovered next to a home, foul play was suspected._

... was not deliberate, and it should be two sentences separated by - at the very least - a semi colon, then I'd say that his name was What. Then again, I wouldn't say that, because if that's the right answer, there's no question.

----------


## iamnobody

WINNER!

your turn

----------


## iamnobody

OK...My turn..again.

The following is true under a very special circumstance. What is it?

11+8+8=17

----------


## Triter

Stumped....but I hope I can use the answer at work!

----------


## jajdude

> ok...my turn..again.
> 
> The following is true under a very special circumstance. What is it?
> 
> 11+8+8=17


1/1 ?

----------


## Silas Thorne

You are playing Blackjack, right? An Ace can be a 1 or an 11.

Whether or not that was the answer you were looking for, it must have been a suitable answer.
Now:

Determine which of these letters does not belong:

D V O N A S W

----------


## iamnobody

Blackjack it is.

As for yours, stumped for now.

----------


## kasie

Sorry, thought I had an answer and realised it was wrong as soon as I posted it. Doh...

----------


## OrphanPip

W wasn't a part of the classical Latin alphabet, it was added later. I'm not sure that's what you were getting at though.

----------


## Silas Thorne

:Smile:  I could take that answer for the reason you have given, I suppose, but there is a simpler, different answer to this one. And it's not W, in this one anyway. Although it's great that the puzzle can have more than one answer!

----------


## billl

The A can't be traced over without lifting the stylus, or re-tracing a section a second time.

----------


## Silas Thorne

:Smile:  That's the answer I was looking for. Well done! But OrphanPip is right in another way, which is also good. I guess I'll be ridiculously rulebound and let you go next, billl....

----------


## billl

This is one a lot of people might know, so if you haven't heard it before try and have some fun thinking about it before reading the responses.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You have been trapped inside of a strange pyramid, following the mysterious collapse of its entrance. You keep exploring and soon encounter two mummies standing in front of two doors.

A sign above the doors says the following:

ONE OF THESE DOORS LEADS TO A PASSAGE OF PITS, TRAPS, AND ULTIMATE DOOM. THE OTHER DOOR LEADS TO YOUR SAFETY AND FREEDOM. THESE TWO MUMMIES EACH KNOW WHICH DOOR IS WHICH, BUT ONE OF THE MUMMIES ALWAYS TELLS LIES, WHILE THE OTHER MUMMY ALWAYS TELLS THE TRUTH.

What will you do? How can you learn which door is the one to freedom without leaving the room?

----------


## Silas Thorne

Ooh, and is there another mummy that stands beside them and strangles people who ask the other two complicated questions ?  :Wink:

----------


## billl

" :Wink: " acknowledged.



Also, just to be clear, these mummies aren't threatening, and they speak English just fine.

----------


## MarkBastable

_What will the other mummy say if I ask him - or possibly her - which door leads to freedom?_

The one who tells the truth will know that the other would lie and therefore tell you the wrong door. So if you have asked the mummy who tells the truth, he will will truthfully point to the door that leads to doom. 

And the one who lies wil know that the other would tell you the truth and therefore tell you the right door. So if you've asked the the mummy who tells lies, he will mendaciously point to the door that leads to doom.

So whichever door you are told, take the other one.

Okay - I didn't work this out just now - though I did when I first came across it years ago. I have a book somewhere in which this puzzle is taken to absurd lengths - so, for instance, they reply 'yes' and 'no' in their own language, but you don't know which is which, and one of them doesn't know the difference between truth and lies, and the other lies on alternate days and you don't know whether this is a truth day or a lie day, and so on and so forth. But all the solutions come down to the same thing, which is a sort of nested binary logic - a series of on-and-off switches - and you have to construct a question which will flick the switches in such a way that you always arrive at the same known point, no matter where you start.


A carrot, a pipe and a couple of lumps of coal lying on the grass amongst the daffodils. What happened?

----------


## billl

Thanks, Mark! Another way to nest it that I had in mind was: 

Ask either mummy the question: "If I were to ask you if the door on the left were the door to freedom, would you say 'Yes'?" If the answer is Yes, then take the door on the left; otherwise, go with the door on the right.


Re: your puzzle, don't ask me, maybe some other dudes know, man.

----------


## Sapphire

:Hurray:  Riddles  :Hurray:  

As for the carrot, pipe, coal and daffodils... I never heard that one  :Biggrin:  I'm very curious for the answer  :Nod:  

I can imagine a rabbit might be attracted by the carrot and eat it. And maybe somebody will be able to light the pipe with the coal, though I really think (s)he would need some tobacco. 
Maybe nothing happens - they just all rot away. Daffodils first, carrot second, pipe third and coals last?!

Somehow I think there's more to it...

----------


## kasie

[QUOTE=MarkBastable;968884.....A carrot, a pipe and a couple of lumps of coal lying on the grass amongst the daffodils. What happened?[/QUOTE]

The snowman has melted - spring has come - hurrah!

----------


## prendrelemick

While Kasie thinks of a tricky one...

Two Snowmen in a field. One says to the other "Is it me, or can you smell carrot."


Sorry...

I'll get me coat.

----------


## Sapphire

:Eek:  Seeing the answer - I heard that one before! I did, and I completely forgot and couldn't figure it out again :bonk: The knots of the mind  :Crazy:  

A song to pass the time:
Five for Fighting - the Riddle

----------


## kasie

Oops, sorry - I forgot I had to provide another puzzle. How about another favourite crossword clue?

Tipped both ways for the Nursery Stakes. (7,5)

----------


## MarkBastable

> Oops, sorry - I forgot I had to provide another puzzle. How about another favourite crossword clue?
> 
> Tipped both ways for the Nursery Stakes. (7,5)


Rocking Horse?


Assuming that's right....


A man enters a deserted field with a pack on his back, and he is found there dead.

Questions are allowed on this one - but to start you off - there are no animals or people in the field. He's perfectly healthy when he arrives.

----------


## prendrelemick

Lightening?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Lightening?


Nope.

Forgive me - but because I'm obsessive and irritating about this kind of thing, there's no 'e' in it, when it's the flash that goes with thunder. It's a compulsion of mine. I'm more to be pitied than censured.

----------


## Sapphire

Maybe he fell into a well or something? But no, that should have been mentioned...

Is the pack heavy? In that case he might just have lost his footing, dropped forward and got crushed by the pack.  :Nod:

----------


## MarkBastable

> Maybe he fell into a well or something? But no, that should have been mentioned...
> 
> Is the pack heavy? In that case he might just have lost his footing, dropped forward and got crushed by the pack.




He's lying on the grass - possibly next to two pieces of coal and a carrot, not that that's relevant. And the pack is not that heavy. An adult could walk perfectly normally while carrying it.

----------


## Sapphire

Hold on, first you say 



> A man enters a deserted field with a pack on his back


and now you say he's lying on the grass? Isn't it a bit hard to enter while lying on the grass?  :Crazy:  Does he die lying down, or standing up? Or isn't that important? 

Any way: when the pack does not crush him, his heart does not suddenly stop (healthy) and he doesn't commit suicide by just holding his breath (healthy in his mind: no suicidal tendencies)... I guess the one option left is that he's struck by the wrath of the gods and dies because one of them throws something at him? 
Or, leaving dieties out of it ill, a bird flies over the field and drops something which hits him right on the head  :Nod:  Not sure what the significance of the pack is in that case though... Maybe it has bird food in it which makes the bird let go of whatever brick or other heavy object it has in its claws...

----------


## iamnobody

The pack is a parachute that failed to open? This makes sense since you said "enters" a field instead of "walks into". Or was that just random word choice?

----------


## MarkBastable

> The pack is a parachute that failed to open? This makes sense since you said "enters" a field instead of "walks into". Or was that just random word choice?


No word choice I make is ever random.

Yep - you gottit.

Next?

----------


## iamnobody

This is my all-time favorite crossword.

Who's there (5 letters)

----------


## iamnobody

any one out there?

----------


## billl

Leeds

----------


## billl

Just in case I'm right, here's the next puzzle:

A smoker of herbal cigarettes (non-addictive, and low in tar) one day realized that his pack had finally run out (he only smoked one or two a day, because any sort of smoking isn't really so good for you). Anyhow, he wasn't going to be able to buy another pack of these special cigarettes for another month or so (they were only available at a certain shop that he rarely frequented). 

While he didn't have any more cigarettes, he did, however, have an ashtray full of these cigarette butts. He realized that he could put five of the butts together, and make the equivalent of one whole cigarette. If there were 25 butts in his ashtray, how many cigarettes would he be able to enjoy before his next trip to the store?

----------


## Sapphire

I'm not sure whether Leeds is the only town with 5 letters where the Who has ever played, but I think it is a nice find  :Smile:  I sure don't have a better answer  :Nonod:  

As for the cigarette-riddle. It seems pretty straight forward: 25/5 = 5 cigarettes. But then you have to realise that all those 5 will leave butts, so 6 in total  :Biggrin:

----------


## billl

> As for the cigarette-riddle. It seems pretty straight forward: 25/5 = 5 cigarettes. But then you have to realise that all those 5 will leave butts,[/color] so 6 in total


Sorry if it was too easy! Now YOU have to remember or think up one... :Banghead:  :Brickwall:

----------


## Sapphire

:FRlol:  Well, I thought it was 5 for about 10 minutes - but that was just too easy. It had to be more difficult, for else it was just a math problem instead of a riddle  :Wink:  So not too easy at all  :Smile: 

I heard a smart limerick just the other day, but I don't remember the right words... hold on, I wrote it down somewhere

[Edit]Got it, here we go:



> Jack and Jill are both dead! This I say -
> For I saw them myself yesterday.
> Just a small pool of water
> And glass, hints to slaughter.
> So tell me what happened, I pray.


Good luck!

----------


## iamnobody

I don't have answer for Jack and Jill, but the answer to Who's there is FIRST

----------


## billl

Oh, yeah, the Abbot & Costello routine! It took me a while to figure it out even after you gave us the answer--and it is obviously much better than my reference to an album by THE Who.

----------


## Sapphire

Classic  :Smile: 
Abbott and Costello

----------


## iamnobody

> I heard a smart limerick just the other day, but I don't remember the right words... hold on, I wrote it down somewhere
> 
> [Edit]Got it, here we go:
> Good luck!


I Still don't have a good answer for this one, so, a not so good one...ahem..

We know that "Jack fell down and broke his crown. And Jill came tumbling after" so maybe their injuries were far worse than we thought.
( :Frown2: I know, sooo bad, forgive me :Frown2: )

----------


## billl

Did they drink some poisoned water? (And drop their glass?)

----------


## prendrelemick

I strongly suspect their mother. She is known to have abused Jill in later verses, and let Jack go to bed without seeking professional medical advice.

----------


## MarkBastable

They're dropped goldfish.

----------


## iamnobody

clever!

----------


## MarkBastable

There are various variants of this, but this version crops up in my novel _Mischief_, as a teasing message on an voicemail serrvice...

_BLEEP.

Hi, its Chris. This might amuse you. A story just came in over the wire from Connecticut. Some guy shoots his father stone dead. The police take him down to the precinct and call up the District Attorney. The District Attorney is appraised of the details, and then goes through to the Assistant DAs office. Can you take this one, Bob? says the DA. I cant do it. I dont think I could prosecute my own son. Discuss. See you soon..._

----------


## billl

Bob is a stepfather to the alleged killer?

OR

Bob used to be the alleged killer's mother, but has subsequently had a sex change operation?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Bob is a stepfather to the alleged killer?
> 
> OR
> 
> Bob used to be the alleged killer's mother, but has subsequently had a sex change operation?



Er - Bob is the Assisant DA who's addressed by the DA - so Bob has nothing to do with problem.

----------


## Scheherazade

The DA is a woman and the killer's mother?

----------


## MarkBastable

> The DA is a woman and the killer's mother?


Yep.

Women who've been thinking about the problem for a long time tend to be very cross with themselves when you tell them the answer.

----------


## Scheherazade

Next puzzle (remember this one from my childhood  :Smile: )

A jeweller has ten bags of golden coins, each containing ten coins; however, he is informed that all the coins in one of the bags are counterfeits: they weigh one gram less than the regular coins in other bags. 

How can he discover the bag with the counterfeits by using the scales only once?

----------


## Silas Thorne

Can he carry all the bags and stand on the scales and then throw the bags one by one onto the floor around him? He would know which bag weighed differently from all the others by the irregular weight change. This would only be strictly using the scales once, wouldn't it, as his weight stays on the scales until the end?

----------


## Scheherazade

No, he cannot do that; it is a small one used by jewellers. 

And the method you suggest would mean using the scales up to 10 times. He uses the scales only once; just one reading.

----------


## MarkBastable

> No, he cannot do that; it is a small scale used by jewellers. 
> 
> And the method you suggest would mean using the scale up to 10 times. He uses the scales only once; just one reading.


Having used the scales, can he use other handy stuff?

----------


## billl

Got it! (Maybe!) But it assumes that we know how much a non-counterfeit coin weighs.

1. Number the bags from 0 to 9.
2. Then, take one coin from bag number one, two coins from bag number two, three from number three, etc. (Don't take any coins from bag number zero.)
3. The total number of coins will be 45 coins. 
4. ASSUMING that each non-counterfeit coin weighs some certain amount 'X', the equation "45X - WEIGHT" will yield a number of grams that matches the number of the counterfeit bag.

Scher, do we begin knowing how much a non-counterfeit coin weighs???
If not, then my plan falls apart.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Got it! (Maybe!) But it assumes that we know how much a non-counterfeit coin weighs....


That's very ingenious, even with the assumption - but it also assumes that the scales are like this. I'd assumed that they were like this, and that no marked weights were provided, so all you have to work with is the bags.

Scher?

----------


## Scheherazade

> Got it! (Maybe!) But it assumes that we know how much a non-counterfeit coin weighs.
> 
> 1. Number the bags from 0 to 9.
> 2. Then, take one coin from bag number one, two coins from bag number two, three from number three, etc. (Don't take any coins from bag number zero.)
> 3. The total number of coins will be 45 coins. 
> 4. ASSUMING that each non-counterfeit coin weighs some certain amount 'X', the equation "45X - WEIGHT" will yield a number of grams that matches the number of the counterfeit bag.
> 
> Scher, do we begin knowing how much a non-counterfeit coin weighs???
> If not, then my plan falls apart.


Yes, we do know how much each coin weigh: 10g.

(Was expecting someone to ask this question sooner  :Smile: )

Bill's answer is correct:

- Put labels on the bags, numbering them from 1-9.

- Take the same number of the coins from each bag as they are indicated on their labels.

- There will be 55 coins (not 45), making the expected weight 550g; however, because of the counterfeits, total weight should be less than that and missing grams will indicate the number of the bag the coins come from.


> That's very ingenious, even with the assumption - but it also assumes that the scales are like this. I'd assumed that they were like this, and that no marked weights were provided, so all you have to work with is the bags.
> 
> Scher?


Earlier, when I answered Silas' question, I did mention that it was one of those used by jewellers.

Your turn, Bill!

----------


## billl

HA YES!

but....

bag 1 + bag 9 +
bag 2 + bag 8 +
bag 3 + Bag 7 +
bag 4 + bag 6 +
bag 5
= 45.

Bag zero adds zero. (Imagine if Bag zero had the counterfeits...)

Wow, I feel pretty bad-***. But now I need to think of (remember) a puzzle, and that one is gonna be hard to match.

----------


## billl

Hmm, OK, I hope that I am around enough to answer questions. Or that someone doesn't give the answer right away, if it is too obvious...

This is like the one Mark did earlier, but if you haven't heard it before, you might need to ask some questions in order to work out the answer... (Sort of like the game twenty questions... I will give only yes or no answers!)


HERE IS THE SITUATION:
A man is lying in a field, dead, next to a large rock. His body is a perfect specimen of manly health--no marks, no bruises, no visible injuries. But he is dead. What happened?

----------


## Scheherazade

> HA YES!
> 
> but....
> 
> bag 1 + bag 9 +
> bag 2 + bag 8 +
> bag 3 + Bag 7 +
> bag 4 + bag 6 +
> bag 5
> ...


Yes, I see how this works out but in my solution you take 10 coins from bag no.10 as well, making the total 55.


Going back to your question, is the rock crucial in his death?

----------


## billl

(btw, I can see how a 'bag 10' instead of 'bag zero' changes the math...)

Um, yes, the rock plays a role in his death.

----------


## MarkBastable

Convinced, erroneously, of his manifest destiny, he gave himself a heart attack trying to get the sword out of the stone.

----------


## Scheherazade

> Um, yes, the rock plays a role in his death.


Since there were no visible injuries, is it safe to assume that he was not crushed by this rock?

How large is it? (And, more importantly, does size matter?)

Is it a regular rock by the way? I.e., "a large piece of stone" in the sense we use in everyday conversation?

----------


## billl

> Convinced, erroneously, of his manifest destiny, he gave himself a heart attack trying to get the sword out of the stone.


A nice attempt, but no.




> Since there were no visible injuries, is it safe to assume that he was not crushed by this rock?
> 
> How large is it? (And, more importantly, does size matter?)
> 
> Is it a regular rock by the way? I.e., "a large piece of stone" in the sense we use in everyday conversation?


He was not crushed. Let's say that the stone was the size of a loaf of bread. It is not a "regular rock", I guess, but it is a large piece of stone, in the sense that we usually use.

----------


## Sapphire

Maybe he's a dreamer? Looking at the sky - his thoughts miles away - he tripped over the stone and broke his neck...

----------


## Scheherazade

> It is not a "regular rock".


Since it is not a "regular rock", is it possible that it is something chemical/poisonous?

Is the man's age important? Or his profession?

----------


## billl

It is a poison, I suppose, but it wouldn't kill you.

The man's age and profession are not important.

----------


## iamnobody

The rock is kryptonite and the man is Superman?

----------


## billl

Yes, iamnobody guessed it!

----------


## iamnobody

Good one billl! Now, a riddle.

Odds are good you know my start
But do not know my end.
I sound delicious but I'm not
Be sure of that my friend.

A squiggle here, two squiggles there,
Is clearly what you see.
From here to there, how far around?
Well, it's all Greek to me.
What am I?

----------


## MarkBastable

ouroboros?

----------


## billl

Poorly-cooked gyros?

----------


## kasie

The greek letter 'pi'?

----------


## MarkBastable

> The greek letter 'pi'?


Brilliant.

----------


## iamnobody

kasie's right. And yes, brilliant! Your turn.

----------


## kasie

Oh, dear - now I have to think of another one - sorry, folks, I'll have to sleep on this one. Watch this space. (_Kasie goes off muttering and sighing to herself_.)

----------


## kasie

OK - try this one.

A man of the desert lay dying - he called to his bedside his three sons and blessed them.

'To you, my eldest son, I leave one half of all my worldly goods,' he said.

'Father,' wept the young man, 'you are indeed the best of fathers.'

'To you, my second son, I leave one quarter of all my goods.'

'Dearest father, you are a loving and generous parent.'

'And to you, my youngest son, I leave one fifth of my wealth.'

'Father, I thank you,' cried the youngest son though his voice was muffled by tears and he could hardly be heard.

'There is one condition,' the old man murmured with difficulty, for his end was drawing near. 'It has taken me many years to acquire my flocks and herds. Do not, I pray you, kill any of the beasts as you divide them among yourselves.'

'Father,' the young men promised, 'it shall be even as you request.'

'Should you have difficulty over the division, send for your uncle,' whispered the old man. 'He will surely come to your aid.'

And so saying, the worthy old man passed to a better world.

The three sons performed the funeral rites with all due ceremony, amid much mourning, for they were dutiful sons and had loved their father. When it was fit and proper so to do, they began the division of their inheritance, according to their father's wishes. The flocks of sheep divided easily, as did the herds of goats. But when it came to allotting the camels, they found themselves much exercised, for there were nineteen camels to be shared.

'How shall we do this?' they asked themselves, 'for surely we cannot divide nineteen camels in the way our good father directed unless we kill one and that he specifically forbade.'

Then they remembered their father's advice and sent for their uncle. It took some time for the old man to arrive, for he lived many miles away across the desert. The three young men knew how to greet an honoured guest and welcomed him, leading him to their tent to rest and refresh himself. They gave orders that his tired camel should be fed and watered with their own animals.

After their meal together, the young men begged their uncle to help them solve their dilemma.

'Ah,' said the old man with a smile, 'my worthy brother's fine camels! I always admired them. Allow me, I pray, to look on them again.'

The young men took him to the place where the camels were tethered. He smiled broadly when he saw how healthy and well-cared for they were.

'My dear nephews,' he cried, 'I see no problem. The answer is before you.'

_So - what is the answer? How can the camels be divided according to the old father's will?_

----------


## billl

They could imagine that the uncle's camel actually belonged to their father. Or, perhaps, the uncle could just lend it to them. That would make twenty camels, and thus the brothers could receive their alloted numbers:
1/2=50%=10 camels
1/4=25%=5 camels
1/5=20%=4 camels

There would still one camel (5%) remaining amongst the 20, and since the uncle had merely lent it, he could just have it right back.

----------


## papayahed

> They could imagine that the uncle's camel actually belonged to their father. Or, perhaps, the uncle could just lend it to them. That would make twenty camels, and thus the brothers could receive their alloted numbers:
> 1/2=50%=10 camels
> 1/4=25%=5 camels
> 1/5=20%=4 camels
> 
> There would still one camel (5%) remaining amongst the 20, and since the uncle had merely lent it, he could just have it right back.


Nice!

----------


## kasie

That's right, billl - over to you.

----------


## billl

OK, I'm gonna try and come up with something. Maybe I'll have to check out a puzzle website or something, because I can't remember any...

In the meantime, please, if anyone else has a good one, go right ahead and post it!

(EDIT: I will be back online and will at the very least cut and paste something from a website probably between 7 and 12 hours from now, if no one else has a good one...)

----------


## billl

Which wartime U.S. president is famous for:

1) side-burns
2) top hat
3) blonde hair
4) not finishing his term

----------


## billl

OK, I am gonna just give the answer to that latest puzzle that I made up by myself. The answer is:

Abe Lincoln

----------


## billl

HERE IS THE NEXT PUZZLE!

This is copy and pasted from Wikipedia




> Three guests check into a hotel room. The clerk says the bill is $30, so each guest pays $10. Later the clerk realizes the bill should only be $25. To rectify this, he gives the bellhop $5 to return to the guests. On the way to the room, the bellhop realizes that he cannot divide the money equally. As the guests didn't know the total of the revised bill, the bellhop decides to just give each guest $1 and keep $2 for himself.
> 
> Now that each of the guests has been given $1 back, each has paid $9, bringing the total paid to $27. The bellhop has $2. If the guests originally handed over $30, what happened to the remaining $1?


I'm sorry, I feel cheap for doing this.... But I wanted to give you guys an interesting, PROFESSIONAL, brain-teaser...

----------


## Leland Gaunt

You don't need to add the 2 and 27 because the 2 is already included within the 27...I think.

----------


## billl

Yep--for the guests, that $2 that the bellhop is holding is an overpayment on their part, and it is included in the $27. Good work--people can check the Wikipedia link up there for the fleshed-out answer...

...but it is just a trick going on when it is suggested that the $2 be added to the $27 for some reason. The $2 is actually just what is _left over from the $5_, after the customers got their $3. If the bellhop, in a fit of honesty, went back and gave the $2 to one of the guests (or divied it up somehow, e.g. $o.66 each), then we would see that the guests had no longer overpaid the two dollars. Their $27 total _payment_ would finally be _reduced_ to the $25 that they actually owed.

----------


## prendrelemick

Here's a quick easy one while we're waiting for billl

8 9 6 3 2 1 4 ?

----------


## billl

I have to do another (non-researched) one? I will keep trying, because this is a great thread, but I am having trouble remembering another one. I like the more social/conversational mood here, where we are posting from our memory of these puzzles, but I might have reached my limit. But I will keep trying, because I probably will come up with something eventually  :Smile:

----------


## billl

> Here's a quick easy one while we're waiting for billl
> 
> 8 9 6 3 2 1 4 ?


I find this one neither quick nor easy.

----------


## billl

7!

Re-arranging the sequence as consecutive top-to-bottom columns, we get:
8 2
9 1
6 4
3 ?
Paired thusly, it seems that adding 7 to 3 will give us 10, just as the other pairs do. Nice one, did you make that one up yourself?

Assuming that I am correct (and there might very well be some other solution you had in mind...), I will next post a classic 'puzzle' that I finally managed to remember.

----------


## billl

*Game Show Problem*

You have been called down from the audience to participate on a game show. The host stands with you before three large curtains, numbered 1, 2, and 3. Behind one of the curtains, there is a check for $10,000. The other two curtains have nothing behind them. You must decide which curtain you think conceals the prize.

After you have chosen (for example, curtain number 1), the host gives you one more chance to change your mind. But before you decide whether or not to change, the host will pull aside one of the curtains that you have not chosen (for example, curtain number 2), in order to show that there is nothing behind it.

So, what should you do:

1) choose the other curtain (in the example, curtain number 3)
or
2) keep to your original choice (e.g. curtain number 1)

and Why?


(I hope I explained this one well, please ask if anything needs clarification...)

----------


## Sapphire

I know you have to change, but I always thought it went against all common sense  :Nod:  No matter how good the explination  :FRlol:  It's a bit like the hare and the turtle...

The first time you have a 1 in 3 chance to get it right. The second time, when you choose the other curtain, you have a 1 in 2 chance. BUT that goes for both doors, so that wasn't the explination 
Erm...
The chance you have it right the first time, is 1/3. So you probably have it wrong (2/3). After the curtain with nothing behind it is opened, you better switch to the one that is left (neither chosen the first time or openend). But what the chances are for that one, I'm not sure. I just know they're better  :Crazy:  

If anybody knows how to explain this more clearly, please do!

----------


## prendrelemick

> 7!
> 
> Re-arranging the sequence as consecutive top-to-bottom columns, we get:
> 8 2
> 9 1
> 6 4
> 3 ?
> Paired thusly, it seems that adding 7 to 3 will give us 10, just as the other pairs do. Nice one, did you make that one up yourself?
> 
> Assuming that I am correct (and there might very well be some other solution you had in mind...), I will next post a classic 'puzzle' that I finally managed to remember.


I just went clockwise round the number pad on my keyboard :Biggrin:  but 7 is right.

----------


## MarkBastable

This is a maddening one, actually - because the odds are completely dependent on when you assess them. 

You could say that once you're down to two curtains, it's fifty-fifty which is the prize curtain, so why change. 

But actually, that's not quite true - and it's because you've been made to choose _before_ you get to that point.

Imagine there are a million curtains. You choose one. They take away all but one of the others.

At that point it's pretty obvious that the chances of you having picked the right one are one-in a-million. And pretty obviously, you'd swap, because they _know_ which is the right one, so you'd tend to believe that they've got it right because you got it wrong.

The same principle applies with three curtains, but the odds are shorter. The fact remains, however, that it's absolutely certain they've picked the right one of two if you haven't already picked it, but only one in three that you picked the right one in the first place.

----------


## OrphanPip

It's a famous math problem, called the Monty Hall problem, Sapphire was close.

If you don't switch your probability of getting the prize remains 1/3.

If you do switch the probability is 2/3. 

It's counter intuitive, but the laws of probability happen to be counter intuitive  :Wink: .

Think of the possibilities if you always pick 1.

Results if Switch/ Don't Switch
0 /cash
cash /0
cash /0

----------


## prendrelemick

Mark Haddon's "The curious incident of the dog in the night" has that puzzle in it, (and the explanation)

----------


## Sapphire

The riddle from the Sphynx of Thebe
Which creature in the morning goes on four legs, 
at mid-day on two, 
and in the evening upon three, 
and the more legs it has, 
the weaker it be?
Remember, you'll be strangled by the Sphynx when you're unable to answer correctly  :Tongue:

----------


## OrphanPip

> Mark Haddon's "The curious incident of the dog in the night" has that puzzle in it, (and the explanation)


Studies show that only 13% of people get that question right on first encounter. The more options, (according to the studies over 7 doors is the point where most people intuitively grasp that you should always switch), the easier it becomes for people to grasp the concept. Our brains work in funny ways.

Edit: I'd be more surprised if someone on this forum doesn't know the answer to the Sphynx's riddle.

----------


## prendrelemick

> The riddle from the Sphynx of Thebe
> Which creature in the morning goes on four legs, 
> at mid-day on two, 
> and in the evening upon three, 
> and the more legs it has, 
> the weaker it be?
> Remember, you'll be strangled by the Sphynx when you're unable to answer correctly


Course if you get it right, you may kill your father and marry your mother.  :Hand:

----------


## kasie

Terry Pratchett in _Pyramids_ has a wonderful breakdown of how the Sphinx got the riddle wrong: for the answer to be accurate, the question should have been something like 'What goes upon four legs for about half an hour in the morning, two for most of the day and three for twenty minutes or so in the evening?' The Sphinx goes away muttering that the riddle had always worked before and he couldn't understand why this victim had not only got away but had left him/her thoroughly confused and needing to find a new riddle.

----------


## MarkBastable

Can we take this one as answered, and move on?

----------


## billl

Yeah, if anybody has a new one, then they are the hero! C'mon, show us!

EDIT: Oh Yeah, SPOILER!!!! ...the thing in the 'Sphinx' riddle is a person. In the early "morning" portion of life, the person is crawling on all fours. Then, at their strongest and most vigourous, the person is walking and running on two feet. Finally, the older, weaker version must incorporate a cane, and is thus 3-legged.

This is maybe the most famous riddle of all time, 
and it is part of the journey of a famous Greek King, for those out there who don't already know.

----------


## prendrelemick

> Yeah, if anybody has a new one, then they are the hero! C'mon, show us!
> 
> EDIT: Oh Yeah, SPOILER!!!! ...the thing in the 'Sphinx' riddle is a person. In the early "morning" portion of life, the person is crawling on all fours. Then, at their strongest and most vigourous, the person is walking and running on two feet. Finally, the older, weaker version must incorporate a cane, and is thus 3-legged.
> 
> This is maybe the most famous riddle of all time, 
> and it is part of the journey of a famous Greek King, for those out there who don't already know.


Of course if the child is being carried by his mum, or riding a horse, or being pushed in a 8 wheeled buggy by a nanny wearing roller skates, the permutations of legs, heads, wheels and tails become more complicated.

----------


## Sapphire

How about a little murder mystery?

A man was found murdered one Sunday morning. 
His wife immediately called the police. 
The police questioned the wife and staff and was given these alibis: 

The Wife said she was in bed reading a book. 
The Cook claimed she was cooking breakfast. 
The Gardener claimed he was planting seeds. 
The Maid claimed she was getting the mail. 
The Butler claimed he polishing the silver. 

The police instantly arrested the murderer. Who did it and how did they know?

----------


## Scheherazade

Was it the Maid? Because the post is not delivered on Sundays?

----------


## Sapphire

:Hurray:  That is the one  :Biggrin:

----------


## Scheherazade

I am uploading an attachment for the next one (another one from my childhood).

Here is the question: At a church, the priest arranges the bags containing their gold as shown in the attachment and every morning and evening, he comes in to count them to make sure that none is missing. 

He first counts vertically: 10 bags. 

He, then, counts vertically up to the left end point of the cross: 10 bags.

And, finally, he counts again up to the right end point of the cross: 10 bags.


After much observation, a thief decides that he can beat the priest's method. He takes away two bags and changes the position of one. Next morning, when the priest comes and counts the bags again three times as mentioned above, he is satisfied as counts give the same results as usual: 10 bags.

Which bags did the thief steal and which one did he repositioned?

----------


## prendrelemick

Take extreme left and right hand bags. Then move the top bag to the bottom.

----------


## prendrelemick

Earthquakes are a very common occurence, yet ours is the only planet in the solar system that has them. Why?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Earthquakes are a very common occurence, yet ours is the only planet in the solar system that has them. Why?


Because on Mars they'd be marsquakes.


Assuming I'm right - and if I'm not, skip this next one until I do get one right, the question is:

What connects the following...?


Toledo, émigré, Miami, alfalfa, Esso, Motorola, spaghetti and dildo

----------


## Scheherazade

Any takers?


> What connects the following...?
> 
> 
> Toledo, émigré, Miami, alfalfa, Esso, Motorola, spaghetti and dildo

----------


## Sapphire

All words have at least 2 letters which are the same: 
Toledo - o
émigré - é
Miami - m (and i)
alfalfa - l (f and a)
Esso - s
Motorola - o
spaghetti - t 
dildo - d

----------


## Scheherazade

> All words have at least 2 letters which are the same:


I thought about that too but I am hoping that there is something more -deeper and earth-shattering- to the puzzle, you know?

 :Smilewinkgrin:

----------


## Sapphire

:FRlol:  I know... it is just that I can not find it  :Wink5:  So I figured I should just state the obvious  :Angel:

----------


## hoope

> Because on Mars they'd be marsquakes.


 :FRlol: 




> Earthquakes are a very common occurence, yet ours is the only planet in the solar system that has them. Why?


Well am not quite sure but i guess coz earth is the only blue planet i.e the only planet that has water.. and so this water causes some thunderstroms underground .. breaks down things under... Hence makes the earthquakes .. ! 
That is what some philosophers believe in .. like the Greek philosopher Democritus .. I read it somewhere .. so am not sure if its correct .. After all its just a hypothesis.

----------


## MarkBastable

> All words have at least 2 letters which are the same: 
> Toledo - o
> émigré - é
> Miami - m (and i)
> alfalfa - l (f and a)
> Esso - s
> Motorola - o
> spaghetti - t 
> dildo - d


Nope. It's more lateral than that. And more fun.

----------


## Scheherazade

Last syllables are the musical notes?

Tole*do*, émig*ré*, Mia*mi*, alfal*fa*, Es*so*, Motoro*la*, spaghet*ti* and dil*do*

----------


## MarkBastable

> Ha!
> 
> Last syllables are the musical notes?


Yep. The notes of a scale, in fact.

Damn - it usually takes longer than that.

----------


## Sapphire

That must be it  :Biggrin:  

Smart  :Smile:

----------


## Scheherazade

A quick one:

Which is the odd one out?

409 - 715 - 265 - 708 - 283 - 742

----------


## billl

It's bad luck answering these, because then you have to come up with a new one.

----------


## hoope

> A quick one:
> 
> Which is the odd one out?
> 
> 409 - 715 - 265 - 708 - 283 - 742


maybe.. just maybe the 409 :Biggrin:

----------


## billl

409 is the only trio of numbers that features an enclosed space in the written symbol for each of them (maybe that's why it stood out...).

----------


## hoope

> 409 is the only trio of numbers that features an enclosed space in the written symbol for each of them (maybe that's why it stood out...).


So that is two against one .. 
Way do go Bill :Thumbsup: 

Comman Scher . .. tell us we r right - hehehe

----------


## Scheherazade

No, it is not 409.

It is a little more complicated than visual features of the numbers given.

----------


## Silas Thorne

It must be 708 then. The individual digits in the others all add up to 13, but this adds up to 15.  :Wink:

----------


## Scheherazade

> It must be 708 then. The individual digits in the others all add up to 13, but this adds up to 15.


Correct!

----------


## Silas Thorne

Ah...I'll have to think of something then....I'll try not to be too long...

Got it! This is a fun one. Try to do this without an online search. It will be fun.  :Smile: 

What English word is nine letters long, and can remain an English word at each step as you remove one letter at a time, right down to a single letter. List the letter you remove each time and the words that result at each step.

----------


## Scheherazade

> What English word is nine letters long, and can remain an English word at each step as you remove one letter at a time, right down to a single letter. List the letter you remove each time and the words that result at each step?


I

in

sin

sing

sting

string

staring

starting

startling (9 letters)


I got stuck on the "a/an" path for a while.


Next:

A piggybank contains £7.37. It is made up of four different denominations of coins and the largest denomination is 50p. There is exactly the same number of each coin. How many of each coin is there and what are their values?

----------


## Scheherazade

> Next:
> 
> A piggybank contains £7.37. It is made up of four different denominations of coins and the largest denomination is 50p. There is exactly the same number of each coin. How many of each coin is there and what are their values?


No takers?

----------


## papayahed

I have to find out the english coin denominations first. :Smilielol5:

----------


## Scheherazade

> I have to find out the english coin denominations first.


 :Goof: 

Sorry about that!

1p, 2p, 5p, 10p, 20p, 50p, £1 and £2.

----------


## billl

Here's the coin denomination for British currency 1 2 5 10 20 50 (also, 25, I guess?).

I used brute force, and tried adding groups of four of these numbers and then dividing 737 by their sum. Finally, I got this:

737 divided by (50+10+5+2) = 11

So, the piggybank contains 11 each of 50p, 10p, 5p, and 2p coins. I stopped checking once I found this answer, so I can't say for sure if there's not another answer.

----------


## Scheherazade

> (also, 25, I guess?).


No 25p here.


> So, the piggybank contains 11 each of 50p, 10p, 5p, and 2p coins. I stopped checking once I found this answer, so I can't say for sure if there's not another answer.


11 is the answer I have got as well, Bill.

Your turn!  :Smile:

----------


## billl

A mother is three times as old as her twin daughters. Two years from now, the sum of their ages (all three ladies) will be 111. How old are they now?


EDIT: I SCREWED UP ON THE ORIGINAL POST (I accidentally used "One year from now." Sorry for any time wasted!)

----------


## billl

Note: There has been an edit to my previous post!

----------


## MarkBastable

They're currently 21 and 63.


(M + 2d + 6 = 111 and M = 3d, all of which resolves to 5d = 105. That was fun - I haven't done that sort of maths since Descartes was late home from school having lost his coordinates.)

----------


## billl

Your answer is correct, glad you liked it! Perhaps you can craft a puzzle out of the Cartesian confusion you've mentioned. Anyhow, I'm off the hook again.

----------


## MarkBastable

What connects Lewis Carroll, Edgar Allen Poe, Aldous Huxley, Tom Mix, Carl Gustav Jung and Tony Curtis?

----------


## Sapphire

writers: Lewis Carroll (great riddles BTW  :Wink:  ), Edgar Allen Poe, Aldous Huxley
actors: Tom Mix, Tony Curtis
psychiatrist: Carl Gustav Jung
So it is not their job ... 

They're all dead... but I think there's more to it  :FRlol: .

----------


## Scheherazade

> What connects Lewis Carroll, Edgar Allen Poe, Aldous Huxley, Tom Mix, Carl Gustav Jung and Tony Curtis?


Does the order they come in matter, Mark?

So far, I looked into psuedonyms, DOBs, DODs, consonant/vowel patters but I could not come up with anything. :-/

----------


## billl

They are all white men. Who have been photographed.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Does the order they come in matter, Mark?


Nope.




> They are all white men. Who have been photographed.


Also, Muhammad Ali, né Cassius Clay. And Marlene Dietrich.

----------


## billl

Is it something about the names (the spelling or pronunciation, etc.)? Would I be wasting my time by exploring their biographies?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Is it something about the names (the spelling or pronunciation, etc.)? Would I be wasting my time by exploring their biographies?


No, and completely.

----------


## billl

If it isn't about the names, and it isn't about the lives of the people the names refer to, then there's some nuance or something I'm missing. Would some help with that nuance (or something) be a dead give-away?

----------


## Scheherazade

While cooking in the kitchen, I was wondering whether they were all dyslexic but that would come under biographies, I guess.

Since it has nothing to do with the spelling of their names and their biographies, is it possible that a third party is involved? 

Are they somebody's heros maybe? Or blacklisted somewhere or by someone?

Did they appear in paintings? I.e., like Marilyn Monroe's by Warhol?

Or an advertisement campaign? I.e., like Steve McQueen in Ford's?

(I am afraid this has turned into 20-Qs).

----------


## billl

I cheated. Pretty cool, but tough. *Maybe* I should have gotten it...

----------


## MarkBastable

> I cheated. Pretty cool, but tough. *Maybe* I should have gotten it...


Thank you for not giving it away.

It may get easier as I add names, day by day.

----------


## billl

Actually, the song is called "A Day in the Life".

----------


## billl

Well, here it is, then. I needed a little help from my internet search engine, but I was thus able to fix the nuanced hole existing between the names and the biographies of the listed individuals. The answer to Mark's latest head-scratcher is this:



I've been trying to cook up one on my own, but in the meantime, here's something I just remembered that sort of fits the thread (although many may have heard it already):

Why are manhole covers round, and not square?

----------


## MarkBastable

Oh. Okay. I thought that, as you'd cheated, we were going to carry that one for a bit, but no matter.

...off you go then.

----------


## prendrelemick

1 you can roll them into place

2 They can't fall down the manhole if you missalign them when fitting.

3 Because the manhole is round.

----------


## billl

> 1 you can roll them into place
> 
> 2 They can't fall down the manhole if you missalign them when fitting.
> 
> 3 Because the manhole is round.


Yeah, I had your number two in mind in particular--I remember being impressed by the idea that the square cover could be manipulated so as to fall into the hole (by setting one side at a diagonal, and slipping within the hypotenuse), whereas the round cover couldn't.

----------


## prendrelemick

Here is a quick one from my second year junior school. Draw an envelope without taking your pen from the paper, and without going over a line twice.

Answer by posting the correct order the numbered lines must be drawn.

----------


## MarkBastable

6 1 2 4 5 8 3 7

----------


## Scheherazade

5, 8, 3, 1, 2, 4, 7, 6 would work too.

Since we can tell that is the correct answer, would you like to post the next question, Mark?

----------


## MarkBastable

What connects Peter Pan, Joy Division and a corner of the Netherlands?

----------


## Sapphire

Being from the Netherlands, I should know this  :Blush:  

I connect Peter Pan (Cpt. Hook) to Joy Division by co-founder Peter Hook, and Joy Division to the Netherlands by the Dutch photographer Anton Corbijn. He recently made a movie about the group. 
That won't do though, for I cannot connect Mr. Corbijn to Peter Pan...

So I draw a blank  :Confused:

----------


## MarkBastable

> Being from the Netherlands, I should know this  
> 
> I connect Peter Pan (Cpt. Hook) to Joy Division by co-founder Peter Hook, and Joy Division to the Netherlands by the Dutch photographer Anton Corbijn. He recently made a movie about the group. 
> That won't do though, for I cannot connect Mr. Corbijn to Peter Pan...
> 
> So I draw a blank


You've got so much of it, it's taken me a moment to figure out why you haven't got the bit that I would have thought was easiest for you - but I think it's because you're thinking in Dutch.

I can't bring myself to say you've solved it. On the other hand, there's not enough left to keep it going, so I'll kill this bit of it and present a supplementary bit that anyone here could take a shot at.

Captain Hook appears in Peter Pan.
Peter Hook was the bass player in Joy Division
Holland has a crooked peninsula called De Hoek (_the Hook of Holland_, in English) which means 'the Corner'


*Supplementary Bit*

The root of the Dutch - or to be strictly accurate, the Low German - word _hoek_ shows up in two slightly corrupted forms in common English idioms. And in both cases the n from the indefinite article that used to precede it has moved to the beginning of the word itself so 'een hoek' becomes 'a nook'. So - that gives you one of them - _every nook and cranny_.

What's the other? As I say, it's a slightly different corruption of the vowel sound.

----------


## prendrelemick

Here are my thoughts in progress.

There's a "nock" at the blunt end of an arrow, which sort of hooks on to the bowstring.

Or a nick or niche which is a sort of nook or indeed a cranny.

A neck curves like a corner

Other right sounding words begin with a "k", so are probably from a different source.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Here are my thoughts in progress.
> 
> There's a "nock" at the blunt end of an arrow, which sort of hooks on to the bowstring.
> 
> Or a nick or niche which is a sort of nook or indeed a cranny.
> 
> A neck curves like a corner
> 
> Other right sounding words begin with a "k", so are probably from a different source.


You're going the right way, but I'm looking for an idiomatic phrase - a cliché even - that I guarantee you've heard hundreds of times, and probably used quite often.

----------


## prendrelemick

In the nick of time? (He blurted out) not sure how it conects to corner though.


I'm sure archers are always getting "nocked up."

----------


## MarkBastable

> In the nick of time? (He blurted out) not sure how it conects to corner though.


Actually, that might be the same root. But the one I'm thinking of quite obviously, in context, means 'corner'.

----------


## billl

crook?

("by hook or by crook")


EDIT: Whoops. Never mind--same vowel sound.

----------


## Basil

prendrelemick mentioned the word _neck_, but I'm guessing Mark wanted the phrase "neck of the woods."

If that is correct, someone else can post a new one. I'll try to come up with one to post at some future time.

----------


## MarkBastable

> prendrelemick mentioned the word _neck_, but I'm guessing Mark wanted the phrase "neck of the woods."
> 
> If that is correct, someone else can post a new one. I'll try to come up with one to post at some future time.


....Yep.

----------


## MarkBastable

What connects 

arms to the Contrasa ranch near Dallasa robot gunslingera man with no name

----------


## Sapphire

The Hook one was clever  :Smile:  I am quite certain I would have never connected Hoek/Corner with Hook - you do pronounce it fairly similar indeed. It reminds me of a show here on the radio, where people hear Dutch lyrics in (mostly) English songs. It always surprises me how whole sentences (with completely different meanings) can turn up that way! 

I am not familiar with the term "the Contras", but I'll jump to conclusions and take that it is short for contradiction  :Tongue:  From contradiction it is a small step to unresolvable differences, which can lead to people getting up (in?) arms. 
I can imagine the fight between these special "Contras" took place on a ranch near Dallas and involved a robot gunslinger and a man with no name (Western!). But all this is just my imagination running wild, so I'll leave it to somebody else to give an answer fundated on facts  :Nod:

----------


## prendrelemick

The Cardinal Points.
Oliver North 
Southfork
Clint Eastwood
Westworld. (Yul Brenner)

----------


## prendrelemick

Here's a quickie I just thought of.

What comes between an egg and the number 40

----------


## Sapphire

Maybe a bit far fetched, but could it be shapes:
4+0=40
and as the egg is zero-shaped it would be the number 4? 

But that is not "between" an egg and the number 40...

----------


## prendrelemick

Nope!

But shapes are relevant.

----------


## prendrelemick

After the number 40 there could be a low value playing card

----------


## Sapphire

I guess that is a huge clue, but I do not know any card games with an "egg" or a "40" in it... That is, taken that this is a sequence for a card game - it could be a number of other things of course.

Sorry, drawing a blank again  :Blush:  

egg - 40 - low value playing card

----------


## billl

I'm thinking that the answer could be "The numbers 1-39," but I really hope I'm wrong because I don't have a follow-up puzzle figured out. Yeah, anyhow, probably wrong...?

----------


## prendrelemick

Sapphire was on the right track noticing that a zero is egg shaped. Hundreds of years ago someone else noticed this too, (A French speaker I would guess,) and a new word slipped into the language. It is only used in a sporting context though.

----------


## kasie

Deuce? No, that's 40-40, isn't it? Vantage? Love?

----------


## prendrelemick

Almost there! - Game, set, but not quite the match!

----------


## hoope

This is really hard.. i have been asking everyone home  :Frown:  

Does it has something to do with the life span of the egg.. which might be 40 days or weeks.. or from the production time ... whatevaaa.. i can't come up with anything..

----------


## Sapphire

Kasie made me think of tennis. I remembered something about "love" sounding like "l'oeuf" (French for egg) - so zero would become "egg". 
But in tennis there is 15 and 30 between "egg" and 40... and no "low value playing card" after it...  :Frown:

----------


## billl

Well, 15 and 30 seems like a good (possible) answer, ie. there could be two things.

----------


## kasie

15-40, 30-40, deuce (40-40), vantage Miss Williams. Deuce can be used in card games for the two of whatever suit, like ace for one, I think?) - You can tell I'm not much into games of any sorts, can't you!

If this is indeed the correct answer, please could someone else provide the next puzzle? I'm away and off-line for a week - IOU a puzzle, in that case.

----------


## MarkBastable

What connects the Beatles, Prince and the Move - but not the Stranglers?

----------


## prendrelemick

Sorry for delay I have been away. Kasie and Sapphire got it between them. 15 and 30 was the answer . Love (the tennis love that is,) is reputed to be a corruption of L'oeuf

----------


## prendrelemick

> What connects the Beatles, Prince and the Move - but not the Stranglers?


Thoughts so far.

Could this be to do with Fruit?

Blackberry Way.

Strawberry Fields.

Cherry Moon.

BUT why not the Stranglers? Peaches are a friut too

----------


## prendrelemick

Is there a difference between a berry and a fruit?

----------


## MarkBastable

You're practically there.

_Strawberry Fields_, _Blackberry Way_ and _Raspberry Beret_. As opposed to _Peaches_.

----------


## prendrelemick

Ok here is a quick crossword clue I've just made up.


Buried after tax.

----------


## iamnobody

internet?

----------


## prendrelemick

Yep, your turn.

----------


## iamnobody

What comes next?

88, 225, 365, 687, ?

----------


## jajdude

Dunno, though I can tell what the numbers refer to.

----------


## Serena03

> What comes next?
> 
> 88, 225, 365, 687, ?


4333 for the number of days it takes Jupiter to go around the sun and so forth the remaining planets.

----------


## iamnobody

You got it! Your turn.

----------


## Serena03

11 24 11
10 25 13
13 27 ?

Which number should replace the question mark?

----------


## iamnobody

10???

----------


## Serena03

^I'm sorry, that is incorrect.

----------


## MarkBastable

...12

----------


## Serena03

^correct

----------


## MarkBastable

Okay. Give me a day to come up with the next one...

----------


## billl

Hmm. Are you looking for the exact date, or the day of the week on this one?

----------


## MarkBastable

If two is blue, and three is white, and four is black in the UK but green in the US, what colour is one?

----------


## Scheherazade

Red?



__________________

----------


## MarkBastable

> Red?
> 
> 
> 
> __________________



...Why?

----------


## Scheherazade

> ...Why?


Oh, _you_ know very well why!

I have no idea what these colours represent even though I checked many boardgames, sports, emergency alert codes, lottery and so on; looking at the colours already mentioned, I think 1 is either red or yellow. However, it'd be nice to know the reason behind it as well!

----------


## MarkBastable

Well, given the colours I've mentioned, there's a good chance the answer would be red as opposed to, say, ochre or taupe. However, I want the why.

----------


## JuniperWoolf

Are the colors those that represent various political parties ordered from most to least popular? That's what they could mean in Canadian politics.

----------


## OrphanPip

> Are the colors those that represent various political parties ordered from most to least popular? That's what they could mean in Canadian politics.


How so? The Tories are blue, but the Libs are red, NDP orange, Greens green, and BQ light blue.

----------


## JuniperWoolf

Oh nvm, I thought that Tories were red and Libs were blue ('cuz of the American liberal = blue, conservative = red thing) with greens pulling up the rear. I totally forgot about the NDP.

----------


## billl

This answer is not correct, according to the one source I tracked down, but since the information is somewhat variable, I'll throw it out there:

Silver.

(Silver/Gray is the most popular color for new automobiles. It has been for some time, but in 2009 white and black ranked ahead of blue.)

----------


## MarkBastable

All very inventive, but not right.

Would y'all like a clue?

----------


## kasie

? States of emergency?

----------


## MarkBastable

"It's a trap!"

----------


## prendrelemick

Is it Star wars related?

----------


## Scheherazade

> However, I want the why.


Bummer. I was hoping that I could get away with guessing the colour randomly.

 :Rolleyes: 

I see the thread has been revived.


> ? States of emergency?


I have already checked that but could not find anything feasable. I also checked many board games and sports but to no avail.

----------


## billl

Dalek-Related?

(If this is right, I can only guess that the black/green distinction would be the result of some sort of editing decision. And I would again go with Silver, I guess. Maybe Red?)


EDIT: Never mind, White is the new Supreme Dalek.

----------


## MarkBastable

Less Dalek and more K9.

----------


## prendrelemick

Greyhound racing colours?

Each "trap" has a different colour.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Greyhound racing colours?
> 
> Each "trap" has a different colour.


...Yep.

----------


## prendrelemick

Cut off my head and I apeer, cut off my tail and I apear.
Cut off both and I mostly hear.

----------


## Scheherazade

> ...Yep.


 :Prrr: 


> Cut off my head and I apeer, cut off my tail and I apear.
> Cut off both and I mostly hear.


Pearl?

----------


## prendrelemick

yepp!

----------


## Scheherazade

Another straightforward puzzle:

A clock that was correct at midnight started losing three and a half minutes every hour. It stopped two hours ago, showing "13.11". Keeping in mind that it ran less than 24 hours, what is the correct time now?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Another straightforward puzzle:
> 
> A clock that was correct at midnight started losing three and a half minutes every hour. It stopped two hours ago, showing "13.11". Keeping in mind that it ran less than 24 hours, what is the correct time now?



A little after 15:57

----------


## OrphanPip

16:00 isn't it?

----------


## billl

I say 2PM (14:00)

---------------------------------------------------

It loses 7 min per 2 hours that pass. 

At noon, it will read 12:00 - (6 x 0:07) = 11:18
At 2PM, it will read 11:18 + (2:00 - 0:07) = 11:18 + 1:53 = 13:11

----------


## MarkBastable

> I say 2PM (14:00)
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> It loses 7 min per 2 hours that pass. 
> 
> At noon, it will read 12:00 - (6 x 0:07) = 11:18
> At 2PM, it will read 11:18 + (2:00 - 0:07) = 11:18 + 1:53 = 13:11



....you skimmed the question, didn't you?

----------


## billl

Oops! Yes, thank goodness, I did. (I just found out how difficult it is to design a logic puzzle from scratch.)

----------


## Scheherazade

> I say 2PM (14:00)
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------
> 
> It loses 7 min per 2 hours that pass. 
> 
> At noon, it will read 12:00 - (6 x 0:07) = 11:18
> At 2PM, it will read 11:18 + (2:00 - 0:07) = 11:18 + 1:53 = 13:11


Bill, your method is correct; however, the answer is not right - yet. At this point, we need to take into account that it was 13.11 two hours ago, meaning that the correct time now is 16.00 (I think this is what Mark was implying by "skimming" as well).


> 16:00 isn't it?


Your turn!  :Smile:

----------


## billl

Here's one in case Pip is too busy or something:

*The Five Diners*
(Sapphire, Scher, Serena, Mark, IAmNobody)

The five LitNetters listed above had soup and drinks at a round table. 
Please answer the following questions:

1. In what order did they sit around the table? (i.e., Who sat where?)
2. What soup did each of them eat?
3. What did each of them drink?

Here are your clues:

The diners chose from the items on this very simple menu:

DRINKS: Beer, Wine, Water
SOUP: Tomato, Onion, Lentil
_also..._

Serena is allergic to onion soup, and can't sit next to a bowl of it (much less eat it).Sapphire sat to the right of IAmNobody.Scher and IAmNobody had the same thing to drink.Mark and Serena each drank beer.Both Serena and Sapphire had drinks that were different from the drinks had by the people next to them at the table.The two people who had tomato soup were not side-by-side.The person who had the onion soup sat between the only two wine drinkers.Only one person had tomato soup with beer.

----------


## Scheherazade

> Here's one in case Pip is too busy or something:
> 
> *The Five Diners*
> (Sapphire, Scher, Serena, Mark, IAmNobody)
> 
> The five LitNetters listed above had soup and drinks at a round table. 
> Please answer the following questions:
> 
> 1. In what order did they sit around the table? (i.e., Who sat where?)
> ...

----------


## billl

Scher, that looks good, but...




> Sapphire sat to the right of IAmNobody.


...was meant to indicate that Sapphire is sitting in the seat next to IAmNobody (the seat immediately to IAmNobody's right)

----------


## Scheherazade

Gah, I have been reading that "Serena"  :Sosp: 

Back to the drawing board!

----------


## billl

> Gah, I have been reading that "Serena" 
> 
> Back to the drawing board!


I know, I apologize for that. I thought it would be fun to include some people that'd been involved in the thread most recently, but all the 'S' names confused me too when I was making it.

----------


## Scheherazade



----------


## billl

There, that is correct--didn't take you long to fix it after getting the names straight.

----------


## Sapphire

A nice puzzle and well done! (I couldn't figure it out  :Blush: )

----------


## billl

If you aren't familiar with that sort of puzzle, I just googled a website that looks like it might be a good place to learn about that style of puzzle:

http://www.logic-puzzles.org/

They are called logic puzzles, or logic grid puzzles.

EDIT: actually, that website starts off with more difficult puzzles than mine, and the tutorials don't seem very good...

----------


## Scheherazade

I like logic puzzles.

Here is another quick one:

HO = 23

KD = 15

TA = 21

UW = ?

----------


## Greta Kin

it is 44

----------


## Scheherazade

> it is 44


Correct. Your turn to ask a question.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Correct. Your turn to ask a question.


Hang on. Why?

----------


## billl

Whoa, I was stumped, and it just now came to me in a flash. (add together the number representing each letter's ordinal position in the English alphabet, and you get the shown sum)

----------


## Scheherazade

> Hang on. Why?


What Bill said:


> Whoa, I was stumped, and it just now came to me in a flash. (add together the number representing each letter's ordinal position in the English alphabet, and you get the shown sum)


Still Greta's turn  :Smile:

----------


## Scheherazade

Since Greta is not around:

I was nine times the age of my nephew six years ago and I am three times his age now. What are our current ages?

----------


## Sapphire

I think this asks for the use algabra

Lets take I for my age and N for my nephew's age.

statement 1] (I - 6) = 9*(N - 6)
statement 2] I = 3*N 

Insert statement 2 in statement 1 

3N - 18 = 9N - 54
6N = 36
N = 6

So my nephew is 6 years old and I am 18.

----------


## Scheherazade

You are on the right track but not exactly. Read the question and second half of your calculation again!  :Smilewinkgrin:

----------


## MarkBastable

Eight and twenty four now.

(Two and eighteen six years ago.)



------------------------

Here's a real life one....

I woke up in the dark on Tuesday and although I don't own a bedside clock, I ascertained that it was twenty-five past four. I went back to sleep.

I awoke in the morning to find that my colleague Adam had texted me our co-worker Abena's phone number at twenty-seven minutes past four.

Why?

----------


## prendrelemick

Did you acertain the time using your phone?
Are Adam and Abena next to each other on your speed dial?
Why am I asking these questions?

----------


## billl

Perhaps Abena called and Mark sort of woke up by the time it stopped ringing. He noted the time (perhaps he even checked the time on his still lit-up phone), and then went back to sleep, wondering at the ungodly hour and why he might've suddenly woke up like that. Abena calls Adam, and Adam texts Mark with Abena's number, so that he can call her back, perhaps thinking that Mark didn't want to answer an unknown number in the middle of the night. Mark sleeps right through the sound of the text's arrival.

----------


## MarkBastable

Adam hoped that his action would be to his advantage.

----------


## Scheherazade

So, why was Abena calling you so early (assuming it was 4.25 am)? Curious minds want to know.

Or maybe Abena was in the US or Australia (or some other country with different timezone)?

Anyhow, it is Bill's turn, yes?

----------


## billl

Whoa, did I get it right?


(Gotta go right now, but I will try to come up with something if it turns out I'm right. It might be a day or two, though, so someone else is certainly welcome to provide a puzzle if they want, and if I did happen to get it right...)

----------


## MarkBastable

No, not right. But everyone's heading in the right direction. Here's the answer...

Picking up my phone in the dark, my fingers naturally fall across two buttons, one of which brings up the contact list and the other of which makes a call - and it calls the first person on the contact list which, because they're in alphabetical order, is Adam. Apparently I've done this several times over the last couple of months, always in the middle of the night.

Having been woken yet again by an accidental call from me in the small hours, Adam texted me Abena's number, knowing that she would go above him alphabetically in the contact list, and she'd get all future sleep-disturbing calls.

Brilliant, really, especially at half past four in the morning.

----------


## kasie

IOU a puzzle - it's not a great one but it's (fairly) topical:

Why would a man who made a pair of spectacles in the summer not be expecting to spend Christmas working in Australia?

----------


## Scheherazade

Something to do with the fact that it is summer in Australia at that time of the year?

----------


## kasie

Hmmm - sort of.....

----------


## prendrelemick

Because he is a Cricketer?
If "a pair of spectacles" refer to two "ducks" or zeros (OO) in a match. Then any Cricketer who made them this summer, would not be touring Australia this winter.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Because Christmas is a holiday? Who works on a holiday in Australia? Who works in Australia whenever they can avoid it, holiday or otherwise?

----------


## kasie

I was thinking of 'The Christmas Period', rather than the Day itself. Perhaps I should have said 'December/January' - sorry.

----------


## Scheherazade

> Because Christmas is a holiday? Who works on a holiday in Australia?


I was thinking of that but then again there is the Police and emergency services etc.


> I was thinking of 'The Christmas Period', rather than the Day itself. Perhaps I should have said 'December/January' - sorry.


Has it got something to do with heat?

----------


## kasie

No, nothing to do with heat.

Perhaps I have been a little too esoteric here, especially for our friends across the Atlantic, though I would have expected some of our regular Puzzlers to see the connection.

Maybe a clue is in order: think back to the puzzle about 'What comes between 0 and 40'....

----------


## Scheherazade

Kasie,

Just wondering whether you saw Mick's reply, which was stuck at the bottom of the previous page:


> Because he is a Cricketer?
> If "a pair of spectacles" refer to two "ducks" or zeros (OO) in a match. Then any Cricketer who made them this summer, would not be touring Australia this winter.

----------


## kasie

Many apologies, Scher and Mick - I didn't see that reply on the bottom of the previous page. Yes, Mick, you are right. I knew I could rely on a Yorkshireman to get it! 

Have I ever told you I was once the most popular lass at Headingly? I had taken my little tranny to the match so that I could listen to the Test commentary while watching Yorks v Warwicks - men kept coming over and whispering, 'What's the latest, love?' Oh, what a day!

----------


## prendrelemick

I must think of one with international scope.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

So because of your inexactitude we're all effectively right?

Police and emergency services don't make spectacles, but two streakers could effectively make a pair of spectacles of themselves at the cricket, and if they happen to be a policeman and an ambo, then they may still be arrested and detained over the holiday period.

I'm confussed.


Here's a quickie:

One man made it but didn't need it.

One man needed it but didn't see it.

One man saw it but didn't want it.

What was it?

Give in?

It's made of wood


Also, only the second streaker would make a pair - if you're as confussed as me...

Aah!

I get it! Pen got it first and therefore won!

Sorry everyone - I'll put myself in self-imposed exile for one month for being so hazy

----------


## prendrelemick

Is it a coffin MM? 

Don't apologise, I am struggling to think of anything worthy of this great thread. And anyway, I thought the explanation of a streaker making a spectacle was inspired.

Here is somethng really simple. 


A second is longer than an hour, a month is longer than a year and an age is less than a week. how so?

----------


## Scheherazade

> A second is longer than an hour, a month is longer than a year and an age is less than a week. how so?


Is it the length of the words (number of the letter they have in them)?

----------


## prendrelemick

Correct. I'll try and do better next time.

----------


## Scheherazade

OK, the next one takes a little time:

My first is in *BRICK* but not in *BUILD*.

My second is in *AMPLE* but not in *FILLED*.

My third is in *BANNER* but not in *SIGN*.

My fourth is in *FOOD* but not in *DINE*.

My last is in *STRUGGLE* and also in *WRESTLE*.


What am I?

----------


## MarkBastable

Those things usually have a last line that gives a clue to the whole word, like....

My fifth is in *girl* but never in *boy*.
My whole is a song full of seasonal joy.


...otherwise there could be many workable answers that fitted the clues.


Still, given the possibility of a couple of answers, and without a definitive clue to go on, my guess is *CABOT*, the explorer.

----------


## Scheherazade

> ...otherwise there could be many workable answers that fitted the clues.


Which is why it is challenging and fun.


> Still, given the possibility of a couple of answers, and without a definitive clue to go on, my guess is *CABOT*, the explorer.


A good guess but not the one I was looking for as in the questions it is implied that it is an object rather than a person:


> _What_ am I?

----------


## prendrelemick

On a topical note, it could be a carol, as Mark obviously knew.

----------


## Scheherazade

> On a topical note, it could be a carol, as Mark obviously knew.


That works, Mick. 

Your turn!

----------


## prendrelemick

The history of my family is worth telling, 
like an epic poem- with musical interludes of course, 
and a chorus of singing and dancing girls. 
It has its tragic aspects sure,
but plenty of laughs too. 
I don't see them as much as I'd like, what with all my nocturnal interests.

Who am I?

----------


## Sapphire

Hrm... 

Don't most Greek Tragedies/Comedies have a chorus with singing and dancing girls?  :Smile: 

I guess his/her appatite for the night life is a big clue, but I cannot remember an ancient hero who lived like that...

----------


## MarkBastable

Bacchus?

I'd like to think it's more oblique than that though.

----------


## prendrelemick

No, but both in the right area.

----------


## MarkBastable

How about Selene, or any other version of a moon goddess from classical myth?

----------


## prendrelemick

Nope. No need to guess the clues are all there.

----------


## Sapphire

In the Oresteia trilogy by Aeschylus, which tells the story of the family of Agamemnon (king of Argos), the choir sings about Nyx



> O mother Nyx, hear me, mother who gave birth to me as a retribution for the blind and the seeing."


Of course, that is just a general "oh mother" and not actually the "mater familias". And I don't think Agamemnon or Orestes had any particular taste for the night ... 

Searching on ...

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Salome?

----------


## Scheherazade

Zeus?

----------


## prendrelemick

You are all circling the answer. Just a little more *Inspiration* needed.

The *history* of my family is worth telling, 
like an *epic poem*- with *musical* interludes of course, 
and a *chorus* of *singing* and *dancing* girls. 
It has its *tragic* aspects sure,
but plenty of *laughs* too. 
I don't see them as much as I'd like, what with all my nocturnal interests.

----------


## billl

Morpheus. 

But of course not, that is not an answer to scorn a group of guessers over.

----------


## MarkBastable

Leslie Crowther.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

All of Greek theatre?

----------


## Scheherazade

Oliver (the Musical)


 :Smilewinkgrin: 


Odysseus?

----------


## kasie

The Muses?

----------


## prendrelemick

> Morpheus. 
> 
> But of course not, that is not an answer to scorn a group of guessers over.


No better sleep on it




> Leslie Crowther.


A cracker(jack) but wrong




> All of Greek theatre?


Good performance but wrong




> Oliver (the Musical).



Consider yourself incorrect.


 :Smilewinkgrin: 


> Odysseus?


A long way to go



> The Muses?


Correct! An inspired answer. Now which one has nocturnal interests?

----------


## kasie

Urania? Muse of Astronomy?

----------


## prendrelemick

Yes ! I had a feeling you'd get that one.
Your turn.

----------


## kasie

I've got a good Dictionary of Greek and Roman Mythology.  :Biggrin: 

OK - another puzzle - how about this one:

Town A is a hundred miles from Town B. A straight railway line connects them. Every day at mid-day, a train leaves Town A and travels to Town B at 60mph. At the same time, a train leaves Town B and travels to Town A. This train is not so fast and can only travel at 40mph. 

One day, a bird who has nothing better to do decides to fly with the train from town A until it meets the train from Town B and then hitch a lift back to Town A with the train from Town B. This super bird, who has certainly had his Weetabix for breakfast, flies at 70mph so, of course, overtakes the train from Town A and when he arrives at the train from Town B, he decides to fly back to the train from Town A instead of hitching the ride. When he gets back to the train from Town A, he's having so much fun, he turns round and flies back to the train from Town B - and so on. He keeps flying between the trains until they meet when he reverts to his original plan and hitches a lift on the Train from Town B back to Town A. He's exhausted - of course he is, he's flown - how far before the trains pass each other? (Yes, it's a double track, the trains don't crash into each other.) And what time did the trains pass? And what time did the bird get back to Town A?

----------


## MystyrMystyry

2:30pm and 3:30pm?

----------


## kasie

MM - One of the times is right, but which one and how is it right? And how far did the bird fly?

----------


## Sapphire

As for the bird: is it possible the answer is "0 miles", as it ended up back where it started?!

----------


## MystyrMystyry

This hurts the place where my brain should be

----------


## prendrelemick

i'd have a go if only I could find a pencil

----------


## MarkBastable

> As for the bird: is it possible the answer is "0 miles", as it ended up back where it started?!


Only if you can convince me that when I go to work and back each day, I've been nowhere at all.

----------


## faithosaurus

1:00 pm and 2:30 pm?

----------


## prendrelemick

Here are my thoughts. You don't need maths hardly at all.

The trains will meet I hour after setting off. 

At a point 60 miles from town A and 40 miles from town B

The bird must have travelled 70 miles in that hour (as it is going at 70 mph)

The bird arrives back at the sheduled train arrival time. (100 miles at 40 mph, which is 40 miles in 60 mins, which is 1.5 mins per mile, which is 150 mins total train journey time, which is 2hours and 30 mins

So 

The trains pass at 1 O'clock
The bird flies 70 miles
and arrives back at 2.30

As got by faithosaurus

----------


## kasie

That's right, faithosaurus and Mick - and you're right, Mick, it isn't really a maths question, it just looks like one. I got it from my educational Psychology lecturer years ago - he used it as an example of 'set' in thinking (or is it 'sett'?), (eg it looks like a maths problem, therefore I must use a mathematical approach, rather than what's the real problem here.)

Over to you, Mick, but I must bow out here as I'm away in a computer-less home over Christmas - yes, they do still exist! Happy Christmas, everyone.

----------


## prendrelemick

Here is one I heard years ago, a simple maths question with an almost unbelievable answer


Take a rope and pass it once round the world. (say 25000 miles) Pull it tight, then let out 6feet. As this is magic floaty rope, how far above the surface of the earth will that 6 ft of slack allow it to float. 

Now do the same with a tennis ball, (say 10 inches)

----------


## MarkBastable

> Here is one I heard years ago, a simple maths question with an almost unbelievable answer
> 
> 
> Take a rope and pass it once round the world. (say 25000 miles) Pull it tight, then let out 6feet. As this is magic floaty rope, how far above the surface of the earth will that 6 ft of slack allow it to float.


I know where this is going, and I too was amazed by the answer until someone pointed out to me the fallacy in the maths.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

I know of no maths fallacies in need of explanation. Is the answer a proportionately inverse square root of someone's ego/party pooping potentiality?

----------


## billl

I'm am gonna be reckless and not check this very basic equation (which I never use) just to get a seat-of-my-pants atmosphere going.

Circumference=2πr
(π is the symbol for pi, not the letter 'n')

So, next:

Circumference + 6 feet=2πx (We want to know x, ie. the new radius, in terms of r.)

2πr+6 = 2πx (then, divide both sides by 2)
πr+3 = πx (then divide by π)
r+3/π = x

3/π = 0.95, approximately

This makes me think that the rope would float a little less than a foot above the surface of the Earth.

However, Mark's post makes me think that this straight-forward approach might be a natural, but erroneous one. If that's the case, I will gladly be the sacrificial lamb we require for the demonstration of such, especially considering the absence of responsibility (for the next puzzle) that comes along with it.

----------


## prendrelemick

That is the answer I was looking for, but Mark has scuppered my confidence in it.
I reckon the answer is the same no matter what the circumference of the orb.

The next question could be, What's the mathematical fallacy involved here.?

----------


## MarkBastable

To be honest, I'm on shaky ground here. The first time I saw this problem I came up with the same answer as Bill, using the same method. Some time later I mentioned it to a guy who I consider better than me at maths, and he took it to bits and pointed out a fallacy - though I can't now remember what the hell it was. 

However, I've looked online to find the debunking maths - and I can't. On the other hand there are plenty of sites that present the solution that mick was looking for... Here's one (though it frames the problem by starting with the difference between the radii - three feet - and asking for the difference in the circumferences).

Looks pretty authoritative and convincing, doesn't it?

So maybe I just have to get past the following counterintuitive image:

I am standing on a plain in Kenya. I am holding two six-foot lengths or rope. At my feet there's a rope tight to the ground, stretching west and east to the horizon. There's also a tennis ball with a short piece of rope wrapped around it. 

I cut the rope around the tennis ball and magically splice in one of my six foot lengths. I make the new rope into a circle on the ground and put the tennis ball in the middle. 

I then cut the rope that's stretching both ways to the horizon, and splice in the other six foot length. Suddenly the rope along the ground floats - all the way to the horizon - in fact, all the way round the world. My six feet of rope has introduced slack along its 40000 miles. How much slack? Well, the rope floats at a height precisely equal to the distance from the tennis ball to the rope that surrounds it.

Put like that, it does seem unlikely, doesn't it? But, actually, that doesn't mean it's wrong. As I say, it might simply be counterintuitive. Me, I'm a great believer in the unarguable authority of maths so - despite the fact that this friend of mine once showed me what he considered to be flaw in it - I'm going to have to go with bill's calculation until someone shows me why it's wrong. It's the best explanation we have until we have a better one.

And that, as we so often say in a different context on this forum, is what science is.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

The ropey floaty rope? As a physical impossibility and physics being a branch of maths, we could discount that one

Tides? Deep sea waves? Moon's gravitational pull?

Mountains? And snow and ice to change the tension of our fallacious measuring instrument?

Equator and Poles? get a lot of crackle and sputter there


Forgive me - maths isn't my strong point - in fact it's my weakest. I think we're all going to be gobsmacked when its revealed, hopefully. I love it when axioms and stuff get shattered

----------


## prendrelemick

To be fair it only works with an imaginary earth and imaginary rope.

----------


## billl

I have a feeling that the whole thing might've been more daunting if we had been provided the circumference of the Earth as measured in feet, and been therefore tempted to figure it out that way. With calculators, it would've been easy, I guess, but after all of those big numbers, the result might've been surprising. But I think Mark is right about the surprise really being about how the radius doesn't matter. I checked a site last night (soon after my post...) and saw a less succinct description than the one in the site Mark linked to, but it had a section with a bolded heading mentioning this fact. 

I guess another example would be one's belt. If someone's waist were 36 inches around (mine is significantly less, but close enough to do the thought experiment, ahem), then tripling the length of the belt would lead to the same 1 foot of hovering space. 

And, actually, this puzzle has just now given me second thoughts about how significant a few extra inches around the waist might be--easing into this only 'slightly' larger size might be a surprisingly more roomy endeavor than I had imagined. Or have I noticed that before?

Anyhow, I'll provide another puzzle, something probably less stunning, I'm afraid.

============ ============ =========== ============ ============ =========== 


A man has a large, empty, clear, unmarked punch bowl that can hold exactly 8 liters of water. He has two filled bottles of water that can hold exactly 500 ml each. He also has another much larger container that can hold up to 20 liters, but markings on the side of this container indicate that it has exactly four liters of water inside of it. He also has a grease pencil which can write on glass.

The man would like to make markings on the side of the punch bowl to indicate the levels at which it would contain 500 ml, 1000 ml, 1500 ml, 2000 ml, 2500 ml, etc. Using only what is described above, how many such markings can the man make?

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Having given this quite some considerable thought over the past few seconds - ten?

----------


## billl

Thanks for kicking the speculation off for us! Sorry, though, more marks can be made.

(Also, since this is a puzzle that I made up real quick, I have to admit that *there could be more than one correct answer,* depending on some information that I hadn't thought to provide.)

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Aah - he may also be able to submerge the two (empty) 500ml bottles to increase the range by ah two, is it?

Therefore 12?

(though the accuracy of these may depend on the size and shape of his fingertips)

----------


## billl

Maybe! Well, yes, actually that is absolutely correct *IF* you are referring to the following markings:

500, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000, 4500, 5000, 5500, 6000

*UNLESS* something....

Your answer is the one that I had in mind when I typed up this puzzle, but I have since come up with another _possible_ answer. Since these puzzles are sometimes difficult to find or make up (in my opinion) why don't we let the speculation on this one continue. 

Can anyone think of a way in which this scenario might permit a marking or markings beyond the 6000 ml level?

----------


## MystyrMystyry

A clenched fist comes to mind.

Were he to remove 500ml and insert his hand until it displaced 500ml, make a mark on his wrist or forearm, remove, repeat process with other hand, reinsert 500ml and two empty bottles and one hand, then the other, making final marking on the container with pen in his mouth taking it up to fourteen

(yes, it would all require a little dexterity, but where there's a will...)

----------


## billl

> A clenched fist comes to mind.
> 
> Were he to remove 500ml and insert his hand until it displaced 500ml, make a mark on his wrist or forearm, remove, repeat process with other hand, reinsert 500ml and two empty bottles and one hand, then the other, making final marking on the container with pen in his mouth
> 
> (yes, it would all require a little dexterity, but where there's a will...)


I think that is a great idea, and what you describe would get you two more markings, thus reaching 7000. I suppose 7500 could be reached by using a foot, provided the shape of the foot and the bowl allow for the foot to be conveniently marked, and the bowl could fit the bottles, hands, and foot.

ANYHOW, I had also realized that the "much larger" container that I introduced (because I didn't want it to be something that could be submerged) ended up as something that the bowl might be submerged in. That is, if all of the water is put into the larger container, then the punch bowl could be submerged, marking off the gradations as it is lowered inside the larger container (which the puzzle mentions is already marked). There are problems with this, though. The material of the bowl would likely displace more than the plastic of a typical 500 ml bottle, which would throw things off. Also, the bowl might not fit in a narrow "much larger" container, or the "much larger" container might be VERY wide and be shorter than the bowl.

SO, on more than one account, your "clenched fists" get us 6500 ml and 7000 ml, and probably to the extra 7500 ml measurement, thus beating the original answer I had formulated (12) AND ALSO achieving a greater plausibility than the "perhaps allowable, but heavily-hypothetical" solution I later conceived.

That means you win, *you are correct!*, Mystyr, and are therefore tasked with the responsibility of presenting us with the next puzzle.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Hey, cool, I did something inadvertantly smart - haven't been there in a long time...

As I was going to St Ives
I met a man with seven wives
The seven wives had seven sacks
The seven sacks had seven cats
The seven cats had seven kits

How many were going to St Ives?

----------


## faithosaurus

30? Perhaps?

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Nope

Actually, this is only a yes or nope problem - not even cold, tepid, hot clues I'm afraid - when it's solved you'll see why

----------


## faithosaurus

Oh! Is it 1?

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Damn if I haven't been undermined by the girl's sly cunning twice in one morning before breakfast!

Correctomondo, Babe - you win the jackpot of three million dollars billl has so generously offered (though it may take some time to pry it from his cold dead hands - but with the shrewdness in evidence of your womanly wiles, hmmm...)

Yes, I was going to St Ives - the others were going the other way - but before faithosaurus posts a new question I think it's only fair we learn how many were coming from St Ives

----------


## faithosaurus

Yay!

Since some of the items weren't people...perhaps 22?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Damn if I haven't been undermined by the girl's sly cunning twice in one morning before breakfast!
> 
> Correctomondo, Babe - you win the jackpot of three million dollars billl has so generously offered (though it may take some time to pry it from his cold dead hands - but with the shrewdness in evidence of your womanly wiles, hmmm...)
> 
> Yes, I was going to St Ives - the others were going the other way - but before faithosaurus posts a new question I think it's only fair we learn how many were coming from St Ives


See post #8 in this thread, and a few following it.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Funny, sure I'd read them all.

Well I guess no-one gets their hands on his moolah then (nothing new there) 


Sorry Buddy - Go for it anyway, while no-one's watching (posting a new problem, I mean)

----------


## faithosaurus

Then it must be 29...

Well, now I must think of one. Hmm..

Hopefully no one has posted this yet:

*Romeo and Juliet are found dead on the floor in a bedroom. When they were discovered, there were pieces of glass and some water on the floor. The only furniture in the room is a shelf and a bed. The house in is a remote location, away from everything except for the nearby railway track. What caused the death of Romeo and Juliet?*

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Ah hah, a long overdue retwisting of the Bard's tale - and not before time

Firstly the glass has something to do with the lover's situation? But lack of blood would negate that. So something has broken as the result of another cause - 'tis it the yonder window through which what light breaks?

Or a bottle? A bottle that had contained the water?

Or had the water arrived from somewhere else? A hole in the ceiling perhaps? Or in a different container altogether?

Or had it been in a different form possibly? Unto ice?

----------


## kasie

A train on the nearby railway track thundered past; the vibrations caused the bottle of poison on the shelf to fall; it smashed as it fell to the floor; R&J ingested the poison/fumes: R&J died. Spilled poison looks like water - DO NOT TOUCH IT.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Possible Kas, but the problem clearly states water, not something that looks like water.

Your explanation sounds a little confident however, as though it were the standard answer for a similar poser. Though this could be enough to provide the missing clues.

Sympathetic oscillation from a train. Knocking something from the shelf - perhaps a large vase. Did it perchance also knock the shelf over also?

Large heavy vase of water falls on R's fat head - he is knocked out as J (untrained in first aid and therefore lacking knowledge of the correct position to place said noggin) lunges toward him catastrophically.

R dies of general head inuries, J carks it from an enormous oaken Shelf strikes a pressure point in the top of her spine (or her head to make it a poetic neatness)

----------


## prendrelemick

Sorry Faithosaurus, we've had this one before too, somewhere back deep in the mists of time on this thread. Unless your's is a different solution.

----------


## kasie

So we have - it was Jack and Jill last time, wasn't it? I thought it sounded vaguely familiar - but I like MM's scenario!

----------


## faithosaurus

> A train on the nearby railway track thundered past; the vibrations caused the bottle of poison on the shelf to fall; it smashed as it fell to the floor; R&J ingested the poison/fumes: R&J died. Spilled poison looks like water - DO NOT TOUCH IT.


Well if this was the solution to the last one, then it is not right. So perhaps it's somewhat different?

----------


## MystyrMystyry

I guess it's the law of averages - you get a hopscotch of mathematicians all coming through the grinder of a limited number of institutions where they were instructed by another hopscotch of mathematicians...

And then we wonder why some problems are similar to others - it's because their cogs are all tuned by the same mechanics


Faithosaurus? You need to tell us what elements are near or far

Is the train wobble correct? The glass container? The shelf? The window?

----------


## faithosaurus

Well, I'll tell you this: Romeo and Juliet are not necessarily people. And kasie's idea about the train is correct, but there's no poison.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

For some reason I'm getting this idea of a skylight covered in snow (seasonal) which came crashing in, the snow melting causing water and a slipping mishap

I'm also getting the idea that the train caused it, and that the shelf was used to climb - or perch on - it

Rom or Jul a bird?

Jul or Rom a cat?

----------


## faithosaurus

Nopers. Try again.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Does 'not necessarily be people' mean that there's an equal chance that they are, in fact and effect, people?

Is the glass important?

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Hold on - are they chimpanzees, monkeys, or similar (as distinguished from being fully 'like us' ?

----------


## faithosaurus

They are not people and nothing like people, to be more clear. The glass is important.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Mice? Cockroaches?

Could you just tell me quickly if I've been moving so far away from what Kasie thought was reasonable, it's prepoposterous?

----------


## faithosaurus

Heh, you're not even close. If the glass had not broken, R and J would be alive.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

R and J were in the glass vase? Or on the skylight - though you seemed to indicate that that's not the case...

----------


## faithosaurus

You must tell me what exactly R and J were. And no to the skylight.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

GOLDFISH!!!


In a GOLDFISH BOWL!!!

----------


## prendrelemick

phew! at last.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

I's got two legs from me hips
To the ground, and when I
Moves 'em they walks around,
And when I lifts 'em they climb
The stairs, and when I shaves
'Em they ain't got hairs

Who is I?


Just Googled 'I's got two legs'
It came up Terry Gilliam
So that was pretty ****weak
wasn't it?

----------


## prendrelemick

I'm looking at limb like shaped letters in certain words.

Also this "I" character is significant, I think.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

No, Mick, sorry, bad news, the problem is, in fact, wrong. I was told by a tea drinking B.S.er (the tea drinking's irrelevant - except he B.S.ed me about the milk getting scolded if you put it in last)* that the answer was Margaret Thatcher.

It never occurred to me to research the origin of the thing until now. I knew it was Monty Python, and the insoucient way he dropped the 'bombshell' at an impressionable age gave me no reason to doubt it.

So it seems it actually appeared in the Papperbok originally, and later performed by Gilliam on stage, neither with the Who am/is I? additition

The explanation, if you can call it that, was to do with the layout of No 10 as featured in Yes, Prime Minister.


I'll come up with something better, or hopefully someone else will (hint hint), when I find something gooder


*I have only suspicion, but as I'm yet to hear this from anyone else, I am prepared to be corrected

----------


## prendrelemick

Here is a quick one then.

The young Einstien, the young Shakespeare and the young Beethoven, were taking a balloon trip together in the Alps. The Balloon's pilot turned to them and said. "I'm sorry gentlemen, we are caught in a contrary wind and shall soon be dashed to pieces on that mountain. Our only chance is for one of us jump out, sacrificing himself to save the others. we can then clear the mountain and land on the other side. I would do it myself, but only I can land us safely. As it cannot be me, I must make the choice who is to jump. 

The three young geniuses began to plead for their lives.

"I am close to writing an equation that will lay bare the innermost secrets of the universe" said Einstien.

"I am full of words that will discribe and explain the human condition" said Shakespeare.

"And I have music in me that will lighten the hearts' of millions of people" said Beethoven. 

When each man had spoken the pilot shook their hand and hugged them. "Gentlemen." Said the pilot, "Time is up, and I now know who must jump."

Who did he choose?.

Who would you choose? Give reasons

----------


## billl

Shakespeare spelled "describe" incorrectly, but please, oh please, don't let me be the next winner, so quickly and easily...

----------


## prendrelemick

Funny, I often spell that word wrongly too.

----------


## billl

phew!

----------


## MystyrMystyry

The three geniuses combined their genius and mutineed - throwing out the pilot?

----------


## MarkBastable

So the pilot says, "Listen - plays and music - that's a lot of work. But an equation? Even if it's complicated you could scribble it down."

And Einstein says, "I can see where you're going with this. To be honest, the equation is so short, you could memorise it. And once you give it to other scientists, they'll figure out why it's right. So..." He swings a leg over the edge of basket. "..._e equals m c squared_. Toodle-pip."

And with that, he tips himself into the void and plummets earthwards.

"Right," says the pilot, turning to the other passengers. "_E equals any squared_. Remember that."

"No," says Shakespeare, "he said _e equals empty stares_."

"No, no," says Beethoven. "It was _soh-la-ti equals something or other_..."

"Whatever," says the pilot. "He was the fattest anyway."

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Einstein failed high school maths and had a ways to go before e equalled mc2

Shakespeare and Beethoven were already proven precocious prodigies by the same age

So, actuality preceding potentiality, Einstein is the one to get the boot


But! 

If responsibilty were to be taken for the link to the most instantaneous deaths and mutations caused by the scientific thought leading to the first nuclear bombs (but also bringing to a quick end the Amero-Austro-Nippon war which is far more important) then he should be kept

Shakepeare's best works ahead of him and the reprinting of which will cause the destruction of uncountable acres upon acres of forest and wild habitat, but will contribute more to political debate and ultimately lead to the foundation of modern democracy, and also bring great joy and reason to live, should also be allowed to live

Beethoven who also had great works ahead of him would prove to be the cornerstone of the modern record industry, the success and popularity of the electronic synthesiser, and was also known for his moody temper tantrums and should get flicked promptly forthwith

But!

Beethoven has provided even more joy to both the world's (illiterate and literate alike) populations and created a unification of the human heart worldwide moreso than Shakespeare, and his tunes last intact in the mind, where Shakespeare's monologues are regularly misquoted and meanings misinterpreted

Shakespeare didn't even care about the publishing of his works because 'the play's the thing' (though that may well be a misquote/misprint), and theatre and poetry were around long before him, and carried on long after regardless, with limited influence

Einstein however had a direct influence on our modern way of life - television, cellphones, computers, the Space Project (Teflon!), airconditioning, solar panels, refrigeration, and virtually everything including Social Philosophy which has had a profound effect of the modern Welfare Utopian State, which although a handful abuse and fail to apreciate it is still a major advance on anything before (especialy the states that relied on slavery)

Ipso Facto Shakespeare must be the Onion!

----------


## billl

Well, if Beethoven would just get them all working on a sing-along, it might "lighten everyone's hearts" enough to get them all over the mountain.

----------


## prendrelemick

Einstien was only a few years ahead of his time, perhaps he would not be missed so much. Beethoven had others of equal brilliance working in his field. Shakespeare was unique, but a poor speller.

Anyway, Mark was sort of right when he said Einstien was the fattest. When the Pilot hugged each man, he was estimating who was the fattest or heaviest - the only criteria that mattered at that moment. So the answer is "the heaviest."

Mark's go I think.

----------


## Scheherazade

*Happy New Year to one and all!


This thread was started with the assumption that everyone who contributed would refrain from resorting to internet shortcuts 

and 

I would like to believe that this is a promise we all keep at all times.

Please deal with your personal differences via PMs.*

----------


## Scheherazade

> Mark's go I think.


Still Mark's turn...

----------


## MarkBastable

o t t f f ?

----------


## prendrelemick

> So the pilot says, "Listen - plays and music - that's a lot of work. But an equation? Even if it's complicated you could scribble it down."
> 
> And Einstein says, "I can see where you're going with this. To be honest, the equation is so short, you could memorise it. And once you give it to other scientists, they'll figure out why it's right. So..." He swings a leg over the edge of basket. "..._e equals m c squared_. Toodle-pip."
> 
> And with that, he tips himself into the void and plummets earthwards.
> 
> "Right," says the pilot, turning to the other passengers. "_E equals any squared_. Remember that."
> 
> "No," says Shakespeare, "he said _e equals empty stares_."
> ...



Now, last night I couldn't sleep and my mind was flying hither and thither and began to imagine Einstien's fall to earth.

As he accelerates away from the gondola he notices a bird watching him, and it comes to him in a flash, that the time taken to fall will vary relative to the position of an observer. For him time will, relatively speaking, slow down and if he could achieve the speed of light it will, for him, stop altoge...

As for ottff, I'm thinking text-speak.

----------


## MarkBastable

> As for ottff, I'm thinking text-speak.


Nope. I first came across this one in the seventies, way before text-speak. I guarantee that not a single person reading this will fail to understand the answer the moment they see it.

----------


## misterreplicant

Hmm. That's an innovative one!  :Biggrin:  S S E N T... E T T F F S S E N T... how far do you want this? lol.

----------


## MarkBastable

Yep. 

*O*ne *T*wo *T*hree *F*our *F*ive *S*ix.....

Your turn.

----------


## misterreplicant

> Yep. 
> 
> *O*ne *T*wo *T*hree *F*our *F*ive *S*ix.....
> 
> Your turn.


Thanks...

I never was, am always to be,
None ever saw me, nor ever will,
And yet I am the confidence of all
Who live and breathe on this terrestrial ball.
Who do you think I am?

----------


## prendrelemick

My thoughts so far.

The first two lines could be "The future" but I can't resolve it with "the confidence of all".

----------


## misterreplicant

> "The future"


Close enough, but "tomorrow" would have been good too. 

Your turn.

----------


## prendrelemick

How is everybody on cyphers? The key is 6


Kmyyski, bmmo dgmv.

----------


## prendrelemick

Here's a clue. or Gsys'd a kxns.

----------


## billl

Correct, good show.



(Using your hint, and guessing at the gaps. Couldn't get the 6 to help...)

----------


## prendrelemick

Well done Billl

The cypher was something made up in 5 mins (though probably not original)

Write out the alphabet in a grid pattern, starting a new line after every 6 letters.

abcdef
ghijkl
mnopqr
stuvwx
yx

Then rewrite the alphabet vertically over the original letters to get the subtitutes.
So, a=a b=g c=m. and so on.

----------


## billl

Ah, thanks!

Mark mentioned Sgt. Pepper's earlier. I have a trivia question about another of their albums (a two-record set):

How many grooves are on the original pressing of The Beatles' "White Album"?

----------


## prendrelemick

Without any research at all, say 20 tracks, averageing 4 minutes each, thats 80 minutes, plus start and finishing grooves and 30 seconds between tracks, say another 10 minutes, equals 90 minutes. The record turns at 33 1/3 revs per minute, so 90x33.33 would be my nongoogled guess . Now where's my calculator?

----------


## MarkBastable

I'd say four - one on each side.

However, I have a faint memory of a mischievous little trick the Beatles played at some point in their career, where they pressed a record with two grooves on one side of an album, sort of intermeshed, so that what you heard depended on where you happened to put down the needle.

Then again, that might have been The Residents.

----------


## billl

I hope it was the Residents, because the answer I was looking for was four.

----------


## prendrelemick

This one comes from a school fundraiser quiz night, many years ago.

The idea is to guess what the initials stand for, every example has a number in it.

So, 3 CITF, would be, Three coins in the fountain.

10 DS
221a BS
50 WTLYL
20000 LUTS
T 4 T
P 6-5000
15 MOF
F 451
TJ5
HMTHA 3 TS


That last one is from that Quiz night. (Someone on our team actually got it.)

----------


## jajdude

> 10 DS Downing Street
> 221a BS --Baker Street
> 50 WTLYL - Ways to Leave your lover
> 20000 LUTS leagues under the sea
> T 4 T the four tops ?
> P 6-5000
> 15 MOF --minutes of fame
> F 451 Fahrenheit
> TJ5 the jackson
> HMTHA 3 TS


Will think. Did these things in class before. Students liked it.

----------


## MarkBastable

> This one comes from a school fundraiser quiz night, many years ago.
> 
> The idea is to guess what the initials stand for, every example has a number in it.
> 
> So, 3 CITF, would be, Three coins in the fountain.
> 
> 10 DS
> 221a BS
> 50 WTLYL
> ...


Tea for Two
Pennsylvania 6-5000

All I can up with for the last one is

How many toes has a three-toed sloth?

which, if it isn't right, ought to be.

----------


## prendrelemick

I am agog! 

Yes the three-toed sloth is correct.

Fair warning: If no one posts something else, I've loads of these, and am not afraid to use them!

----------


## jajdude

Some more then:

1. 64 S on a CB
2. 1 P for a FT
3. 11 P on a FT
4. 90 D in a R A
5. 7 W of the W
6. 32 D F at which W F
7. 1 H on a U
8. 3 B M (SHTR)
9. 18 H on a G C
10. 88 K on a P
11. 26 L in the A
12. 12 S of the Z
13. 24 H in a D
14. 1000 W (what a P is W)
15. 54 C in a D (with the J's)
16. 1001 T of the A N
17. 29 D in F in a L Y
18. 57 H V
19. 9 P in the S S
20. For Americans only: 200 D for P G in M
21. For everyone but Americans: 14 D in a F
22. 13 S on the A F (also for Americans)
23. 40 D and N of the G F
24. 1 W on a U

----------


## kasie

> Some more then:
> 
> 1. 64 S on a CB *64 Squares on a Chess Board* 
> 2. 1 P for a FT
> 3. 11 P on a FT *11 Players on a Football Team* 
> 4. 90 D in a R A *90 Degrees in a Right Angle* 
> 5. 7 W of the W *7 Wonders of the World* 
> 6. 32 D F at which W F* 32 degrees Fahrenheit at which Water Freezes* 
> 7. 1 H on a U *1 Horn on a Unicorn* 
> ...


Still puzzling over 2, 14 and 20.

----------


## billl

2. 1 point for a free throw

----------


## MarkBastable

200 dollars for passing _Go_ in Monopoly.

----------


## prendrelemick

A thousand words (what a picture is worth) I'll admit, my son got that one.

----------


## billl

This is like the end of _The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly._

----------


## prendrelemick

Can I be Clint?

----------


## kasie

Are you mean, moody and mysterious with chiselled good looks? Oh, and you'll have to change your wellies - wrong style for the rough, tough West.

----------


## prendrelemick

I'll be the Ugly one's donkey then.

----------


## billl

Hey, Mick!  :Mad:  You know what you are? Just a--actually, let this be a segue:

NOTE: *I have altered the puzzle, please check the next post.* I'll keep the old version here as a Quote, for the benefit of anyone who had been struggling with it and wanted to check what has been changed (a couple of phrases in the fourth paragraph of the story). Sorry!




> *Puppies and Kittens and The Overcrowded Academy*
> 
> There was a very busy animal shelter that had many puppies and kittens. At night, when the staff was gone, some of the older dogs and cats were in the habit of teaching special classes to the younger animals. They created a school called The Night-Time Animal Academy. There were courses in Human Behavior, Door Opening, Traffic, Cat-Dog Relations, etc. There was, in fact, a very determined effort to focus on a common agenda, and common topics, and to have kittens and puppies studying side-by-side in the same classes. It was an enlightened vision of a future in which cats and dogs would be treated equally.
> 
> However, there were too many puppies and kittens, and not enough wise old teachers among the pets in the shelter. Unfortunately, the classes were all full, and the puppies and kittens had to submit applications and take entrance exams.
> 
> At the start of one session, one rather proud little puppy that had not been accepted into the The Night-Time Animal Academy noticed something:* kittens were being admitted to classes in the school much more often than the puppies were.* There was quite a controversy, and kittens and puppies felt a little tense towards each other in the classes, not to mention outside of class. Were the cat teachers showing a preference towards kittens?
> 
> There was an investigation, and it turned out (rather surprisingly) that* in each class, puppies were actually being admitted a little more frequently than kittens,* although the discrepancy was slight and attributable to random variation. It didn't matter if the teacher was a cat or a dog, the puppies were never turned away any more frequently than the kittens applying for the class. The teachers were relieved at the news, but also realized that something still had to be done to get more puppies into classes.
> ...

----------


## billl

Sorry, I should have worded that little puzzle a little differently...

Here's a corrected version (I was using the word 'frequently' in a misleading way):



*Puppies and Kittens and The Overcrowded Academy*

There was a very busy animal shelter that had many puppies and kittens. At night, when the staff was gone, some of the older dogs and cats were in the habit of teaching special classes to the younger animals. They created a school called The Night-Time Animal Academy. There were courses in Human Behavior, Door Opening, Traffic, Cat-Dog Relations, etc. There was, in fact, a very determined effort to focus on a common agenda, and common topics, and to have kittens and puppies studying side-by-side in the same classes. It was an enlightened vision of a future in which cats and dogs would be treated equally.

However, there were too many puppies and kittens, and not enough wise old teachers among the pets in the shelter. Unfortunately, the classes were all full, and the puppies and kittens had to submit applications and take entrance exams.

At the start of one session, one rather proud little puppy that had not been accepted into the The Night-Time Animal Academy noticed something:* kittens were being admitted to classes in the school much more often than the puppies were.* There was quite a controversy, and kittens and puppies felt a little tense towards each other in the classes, not to mention outside of class. Were the cat teachers showing a preference towards kittens?

There was an investigation, and it turned out (rather surprisingly) that* in each class, the puppies were actually more likely to be admitted than the kittens were,* although the discrepancy was slight and attributable to random variation. It didn't matter if the teacher was a cat or a dog, puppies were never more likely to be turned away than kittens applying for the class. The teachers were relieved at the news, but also realized that something still had to be done to get more puppies into classes.

What was the real explanation behind the controversy? What sort of solution would the teachers most likely come up with?

----------


## jajdude

Well done above posters. Did not know the answers myself, just copied the Qs from somewhere.

----------


## prendrelemick

Billl. It seems a direct contradiction to me, but there is a slight difference in the words chosen. "Puppies were more likely to be admitted." "Kittens were being admitted."

Perhaps the Puppies had a high drop out rate.

Perhaps, I'm barking up the wrong tree.

----------


## billl

This one is admittedly sort of a stumper, and I gradually realized that one's way of describing the situation might inadvertently mask the subtle, underlying nuance. (I have based the puzzle on an actual problem that happened in an actual college.) And, yes, stick with that particular tree...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just to clarify (sort of a hint, but just as much a leg-up to the English language), let me mention the following...

Total enrollment in the Academy:
70% kittens, 30% puppies

Enrollment in particular classes:
"Human Behavior": 35% kittens that applied were accepted, 41% puppies were accepted
"Traffic": 40% kittens that applied were accepted, 45% of puppies that applied were accepted
etc.

Another class not mentioned in the original presentation(s): 
"Tail-Smelling: Etiquette and Appreciation"

----------


## Tallon

maybe cats are more popular than dogs, so cats were finding homes more often and having to drop of out of class. or maybe there is less dogs in the shelter and so they are more likely to be admitted when they apply but there were less applications.

----------


## billl

> maybe cats are more popular than dogs, so cats were finding homes more often and having to drop of out of class. or maybe there is less dogs in the shelter and so they are more likely to be admitted when they apply but there were less applications.


Actually, no animals are dropping out of classes. The number of puppies vs. kittens in the shelter isn't a factor, and they are all trying to get into classes. 

And, for simplicity's sake (although it doesn't really matter, I guess), let's say that each animal is applying to just one class.

----------


## billl

OK, to sum up (I can't tell if people are having a tough time, or just haven't been online, or if my description sucks--so just in case):

Significantly more kittens are being accepted into classes at the Academy. (Controversy!!!)For each class, the dogs that apply for the class are AT LEAST AS LIKELY to be accepted as a kitten applying for the class.

What was the real explanation behind the controversy? 
What sort of solution would the teachers most likely come up with?

----------


## kasie

'Positive' discrimination?

----------


## billl

I don't think so, kasie, but I'm not sure exactly what that might mean. It is certainly the case that the teachers judging the applications are not discriminating, one way or the other, for or against any of the submitted applications.

----------


## prendrelemick

Like Tallon said, the intake reflected the pool it was drawn from. There are more kittens than pups making applications.

----------


## billl

OK, one more thing: There are an equal number of kittens and puppies applying, and an equal number of applications from each of them (kittens and puppies).

Ex.



> 100 kittens (each applying once), 100 puppies (each applying once)
> 58 kittens accepted to classes at the academy this session.
> 42 puppies accepted to classes at the academy this session.
> 
> 5 classes, 20 students each.
> 
> for each class, puppies and kittens were rejected at the same rate.


(Note: I'll let this example override the example statistics I gave earlier--not because the previous example in which puppies were accepted more often wouldn't work just as well, but because the math would be more difficult, and I've just crafted a solution based on the simpler example featured here.)

I hope this makes it easier to think about the problem--sorry I didn't mention that the number of applicants from each group (kittens and puppies) could be equivalent.





> Like Tallon said, the intake reflected the pool it was drawn from. There are more kittens than pups making applications.


I am just going to say that Tallon didn't have it right. ;-)
No snark here, either... Just a last bit of caginess.

----------


## billl

Please note, at 6:37 I made a FINAL ALTERATION to the above quote, which is now accurate and (I hope) clear!

----------


## MarkBastable

How are the applications made? By post? In person? I mean, if the assessors are human and allergies to dogs are more prevalent than allergies to cats, that might do it. Or, however inclusive the authoritative creatures involved, it could be that the proportional entry of kittens and puppies reflects the relative numbers of cats and dogs on the panel.

----------


## billl

Mark, the teachers doing the deciding are elders among the cats and dogs in the shelter. An even mix, let's say. There could still be some inadvertent bias in _some form,_ of course--but they make no distinction among candidates and judge fairly among the applicants to the classes that they are teaching. In each class, the kitten has as good of a chance as the puppy applying in the next application folder--and the rejection and acceptance rates reflect this.

EDIT: I now realize that, with 5 classes, there can't be an "even mix" of cat and dog teachers admitting students into their classes. (EDIT: actually there COULD be, if each class had an even number of assessors, as Mark was probably imagining--whereas I had imagined a sole instructor doing that duty.) This is not a relevant point in the 'puzzle', however, and could be corrected by doubling the number of classes and teachers and students (which I should have done, in retrospect, sorry for the improvised and ramshackle nature of this thing.)

The applications are judged without unfairness and without favorability towards kitten or puppy, in the case of any particular class.

----------


## MarkBastable

Given that this is based on a real issue that came up at your college, would the problem work just as well if you'd chosen, say, elephants and giraffes? In other words, we're not looking for something cute about dogs and cats, right?

----------


## billl

Right, this puzzle is based on an interesting aspect of statistical evaluation. Nothing about cuteness, or animals being particularly quirky. (The 'real world' issue involved human males and females, apparently.)

Btw, it didn't happen at the school I went to, I just read about it this past week, happening on some other U.S. university at some point.

----------


## MarkBastable

Right - so we have very few elements to consider.


1. some inherent attribute that differs between the two groups of students
2. some inherent aspect of the process of enrolment that favours one of the groups of students (possibly but not necessarily because of 1)
3. some flaw in the lens of the data analysis that skews the perception of what's going on in 1 and 2.


In fact, as you hinted strongly in your last post, it has to be the last one, doesn't it because...

_100 kittens (each applying once), 100 puppies (each applying once).....
for each class, puppies and kittens were rejected at the same rate._

but, if the rejection rate was the same then how can it betrue that

_58 kittens accepted to classes at the academy this session.
42 puppies accepted to classes at the academy this session._



I shall think about this on the train to work.... Were the applicant kittens lying about their species? Or - here's a longshot - does the input form for the stats default to 'kitten' and when the inputters come up against a name of ambiguous species, do they leave it as the default?

----------


## billl

Number 2, more than anything. 

With number 3 being a repetition of 2 perhaps, or maybe the "What will they do about it?" part of the question... Actually, Number 3 is maybe just US STRUGGLING with the problem.

Or, shoot--you could blame it all on number 1, maybe.

----------


## billl

clarifying presentation:

Imagine you are of group A (man, dog, etc.) and there is another group B (woman, cat, etc.) that is also applying to study at some university that is offering some selection of classes. The university has an equal number of applicants from A and B (and, for argument's sake, each student applies just once, choosing only one class). All of that is equal. ALSO, if you (an 'A') are in line to submit your application to a professor, you can be absolutely assured that your chances of acceptance into the class are exactly the same as the A in front of you and the B behind you--everyone has an equal chance.

The puzzle is: Why is the university accepting significantly more members of one group?

(58% of those accepted are of type 'B', for example)

----------


## Scheherazade

How does the acceptance process work? First-come-first-served?

----------


## MarkBastable

> How does the acceptance process work? First-come-first-served?


Ah - kittens get up earlier in the morning! Or dogs, or whichever it was.

In other words, they are _rejected_ at the same rate, as bill says, but they _apply_ at different rates.

----------


## billl

> How does the acceptance process work? First-come-first-served?


There's a deadline, all applications are considered, and the best ones are chosen.


EDIT/ADDITION: That is, when it is stated that "100 kittens and 100 puppies apply", those applications are all considered for acceptance, none of them are "too late"--it isn't first-come, first-served.


************************************************** ***************
EDIT ADDITION:
To recap, and focus on the essentials: all of the info in this example (from post #427) is relevant, and sufficient to demonstrate the answer:

100 kittens (each applying once), 100 puppies (each applying once)58 kittens accepted to classes at the academy this session.42 puppies accepted to classes at the academy this session.5 classes, 20 students each.for each class, puppies and kittens were rejected at the same rate.

----------


## MarkBastable

Ah..._for each class, puppies and kittens were rejected at the same rate._ 


Subject bias.


If the boys as a group tend to apply to a narrower selection of classes, fewer of them will get in. Whereas the girls might apply more broadly across the classes, so more of them get in.

Let's say eighty boys and twenty girls apply for engineering - and they are rejected at the proportionate rate of four in five, because there are twenty places. So sixteen boys and four girls get in.


The remaining four classes each have five boys and twenty girls apply, rejected at a rate of one in five - so four boys and sixteen girls get into each class.


In total, there are thirty-two boys and sixty-eight girls enrolled in the year.

----------


## billl

YES!

If anyone wants to solve for 58-42 percent, maybe that can be a nice little puzzle until the next one is presented.


EDIT: By the way, if anyone is interested in the real world inspiration for this example, I'm afraid I can't point directly to it--I've been searching, but to no avail. HOWEVER, I heard about it in a little essay among many other essays by mostly interesting thinkers at the edge.org website. Unfortunately, the essayist (Seth Lloyd) only mentions the name of the researcher he heard about it from (Joel Cohen), and that wasn't enough for me to track it down out of all the papers published by the researcher online, and the undoubtedly many more that haven't been. But Seth Lloyd is a perfectly respectable computer scientist, famous even.

----------


## MarkBastable

At bleedin' last. 

Right, I'll get the next one together over the weekend....


Edit: Sorry - been busy. I'll get there in the next 24.

----------


## MarkBastable

What connects....

_Me and Bobby McGee_The Hubble telescope_The Beauty Myth_The Van Der Graaff generator

----------


## MarkBastable

Three days, and no one's so much as taken a punt at it. Are more clues required?

----------


## billl

I have learned a bit (just a BIT) about The Beauty Myth just now. This one is tough, though. If Janis Joplin had attended Princeton, things might be more than half-way to a solution, but as it is...

----------


## MarkBastable

> I have learned a bit (just a BIT) about The Beauty Myth just now. This one is tough, though. If Janis Joplin had attended Princeton, things might be more than half-way to a solution, but as it is...



....that's not a bad start. You need to look into the pupils of a Colossus.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Spaced out, space telescope, spacey, spatial something?

----------


## prendrelemick

Didn't Newton do something with pupils ? When he was doing light and rainbows in his _"Opticks"._

----------


## billl

1) A certain Mr. Roger Miller wrote the song "Me and Bobby McGee".

2) That Mr. Miller also wrote a musical called "Big River" that debuted in New York on April 25 (1985).
April 25 is also the date that the Hubble Telescope was placed in orbit (in 1990).

3) An album called "Present" by the group Van der Graaf Generator was released on April 25, 2005.

4) Naomi Wolf *probably* (I have no proof) liked the sometimes legendarily beautiful singer Janis Joplin, who did her own version of Miller's "Me and Bobby McGee".

----------


## MarkBastable

Inventive though that is, it falls at the first. Roger Miller didn't write _Me and Bobby McGee_. 

However, you do care who did.


I'll add one to the list, as a further clue

Me and Bobby McGeeThe Hubble telescopeThe Beauty MythThe Van Der Graaff generatorA stain on a blue dress

----------


## prendrelemick

Is that Monika Lewinski's famous blue dress.

Ok, I think the connection could be Oxford University, but more research needed.

----------


## prendrelemick

Rhodes' Scholars! Hence the "Collossus" clue.

Naomi Wolf, the writer
Kriss Kristopherson, the song writer
Bill Clinton, who produced the stain
Edwin Hubble, of the telescope

Am struggling with Van De (and Der) Graaf Generator though.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Rhodes' Scholars! Hence the "Collossus" clue.
> 
> Am struggling with Van De (or Der) Graaf Generator though.



Yep - they are all the products of Rhodes' scholars.

Robert Van Der Graaff (two F's, unlike the band), who invented the generator, was also a Rhodes' scholar. It's not mentioned in his personal Wiki entry, but it is mentioned in the Rhodes Scholarhip Wiki entry.


You're next, prendrelemick.

----------


## prendrelemick

I have an idea, just working out the detail.

----------


## prendrelemick

Here is some American Rhyming slang (there's no such thing I've just made it up,) in the style of Mills and Boon. 

Rhyming slang works as follows:- A word is replaced by the beginning of a short common phrase. The end of the phrase rhymes with the replaced word. Eg Apples replaces Stairs because Apples and pears rhymes with stairs. Here I have tried to use phrases of American origin.


_She felt tired. It was a sesame to hissy and acid a while. She saw Joe approach, this was catch. She tried to keep funny, but her touch felt long. She rubbed the back of her rain to enough herself. She was play, but he was go, a perfect match. "What a fifteen minutes I'm such a five O Clock," she thought.. You look like you need some murder he said._

Can you translate?

----------


## MarkBastable

Here's a partial attempt. 

In some cases, I have a phrase but can't come up with a rhyme (five o'clock shadow?), or I have a word that seems possible, but can't come up with a phrase (murder **** = sleep?). 



She felt tired. It was a sesame street (treat) to hissyfit (sit) and acid attacks (relax)a while. 

She saw Joe approach, this was catch. 

She tried to keep funnyfarm (calm), but her touch felt long. She rubbed the back of her raincheck (neck) to enough already (steady) herself. She was play, but he was go, a perfect match. 

"What a fifteen minutes I'm such a five O Clock," she thought.. 

You look like you need some murder he said.

----------


## billl

"What a shame (15 minutes of fame) I'm such a ho (5 o' clock shadow)" she thought.

----------


## prendrelemick

So far so good, Only I meant "acid test"-rest, but I don't think it is an exact science.


I'm not sure how to give clues. The five oclock shadow, is a difficult one, it's supposed to mean "pathetic." 

"Murder ***" is from any American Cop show. (Its not sleep.)

----------


## billl

murder rap
"You look like crap."

----------


## MarkBastable

> murder rap
> "You look like crap."




Nah, it's going to be _Murder one - sun_. But I prefer yours.

----------


## billl

You know, I had a Eureka moment and didn't even bother to look back at the context within the conversation, that's how sure I was about it.

----------


## prendrelemick

Its murder One - Fun, but I wish I'd thought of Billl's solution.

Soo, now for some Oxford blues, I'll paraphrase the phrases.

Catch **, You're wrong if you do, you're wrong if you don't.

Touch ****, A sporting phrase that also means keeping, or getting in touch with someone.

Long ****, A chance, but not much of one.

Play ****, The beginning of a baseball game.

Go ******, Go away and work it out for yourself


With five O-Clock shadow, I'm looking for a slang word for pathetic person.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

5 o'clock shadow - shmoe
catch [22] - taboo?
touch [base] - face
long [shot] - hot
play [ball] - tall
go - [something] taller

----------


## prendrelemick

no
yes but no, not taboo
yes
yes
yes
no

----------


## MarkBastable

go figure - bigger

five o'clock hero - zero?

----------


## prendrelemick

yes, yes

no,no

----------


## MarkBastable

...saddo


That's very satisfying. I was thinking, "Strictly speaking this ought to be a double rhyme with the stress on the first syllable, but nothing rhymes so neatly with _shad_... Hang on."

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Ah - definitely shadow - see above

----------


## JuniperWoolf

Catch 22 - new?

----------


## prendrelemick

Yes, "saddo" a near perfect rhyme. (unlike some of the others.)

New, is correct too, so that's it. Finished! 

Who's go is it ? Has anybody got something?

----------


## billl

For the record, I don't think any Americans had ever seen or heard the word "saddo" before the appearance of post number 466 of this thread.

----------


## prendrelemick

I did wonder, but who can resist a perfect rhyme.

----------


## billl

Mark found it very satisfying, so I say he's next, until someone else comes up with something.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Do another one Pren - that was good value!

----------


## prendrelemick

I have nothing left, I'm drained.

----------


## MarkBastable

This one's eminently googleable, but obviously that would just spoil it.....


This is a mnemonic I learned at school - what is it designed to help you remember?


_Camels Ordinarily Sit Down Carefully. Possibly Their Joints Creak. Perhaps Early Oiling Might Prolong Perfect Health._

----------


## prendrelemick

I am trying (in vain) to think of O level lists that had to be learned in the days of rote. There were loads in History (and Latin, my Grammer School wife informs me.)

----------


## MarkBastable

I'll give you a clue.

As the years pass, it's necessary to add words to the mnemonic to keep it up to date. But no one ever has done that.

----------


## Scheherazade

Well, there goes my theory that it might have something to do with the periodic table (chemical)...

----------


## prendrelemick

Periods of the Phanerozoic eon. Cambrian, Ordovician, Silurian, Devonian, Carboniferous, etc..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Era_(geology)#Terminology


I doubt there will be anyone around when the next word is needed.

----------


## kasie

Did you know that, Mick, or did you look it up? Are you a former Geology student, an Old Rocker, so to speak?

----------


## billl

I thought the Old Rockers had already come up with the next word: "Sexandrugcene".

----------


## prendrelemick

> Did you know that, Mick, or did you look it up? Are you a former Geology student, an Old Rocker, so to speak?


I guessed it, and then looked it up. ( I have been watching "Men of Rock" on BBC2 )


Billl, I reckon "Hollow-scene" is about right for this era.

Below is a passage from one of Conan Doyle's stories. 5 

"What!" he cried. 5 "Don't tell me that _you_ have had one of these preposterous telegrams for oxygen?" 7
I exhibited it. 2
"Well, well! 4 I have had one too, and, as you see, very much against the grain, I have acted upon it. 7 Our good friend is as impossible as ever. 2 The need for oxygen could not have been so urgent that he must desert the usual means of supply and encroach upon the time of those who are really busier than himself. 2 Why could he not order it direct?" 3

Each sentence has a value, (shown in red.) 5 

Can you work out the criteria used to find that value?3

----------


## kasie

Number of capital letters and punctuation marks? (I can't make out the function of those two dashes in the second sentence, however.)

I caught only the last of the _Men of Rock_ programmes - found it interesting but could not understand the complaint in this week's RT about the 'over-exposure' of the presenter; the correspondent preferred Tony Robinson's approach on a similar subject, calling him 'discreet'.  :Confused:

----------


## prendrelemick

That was so quick! I spent ages setting it! The two dashes were in the text I pasted, they seem to be the equivalent of _Italics_ in a Dan Brown.

I'didn't think much to the Tony Robinson programme, though both were a bit simplistic.


your turn.

----------


## kasie

Sorry, Mick - there must be something wrong with me, can't think how the brain came to be functioning at that time in the evening!

My turn? I'll think of something while I'm pedalling away in the gym..... (Yes, there's definitely something wrong with me.....)


EDIT: I am going away for a few days so would anyone else like to provide a puzzle to be going on with, please? 

IOU one puzzle when I get back early next week.

----------


## prendrelemick

Here,s a quickie. Finish the Metaphor.


As nervous as a **** ****** dog in a room full of ******* chairs.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Here,s a quickie. Finish the Metaphor.
> 
> 
> As nervous as a **** ****** dog in a room full of ******* chairs.


I hear this in a Gabby Hayes voice - I've certainily never heard a Brit say it. Anyhoo, as Gabby Hayes might also say, _a four-tailed dog in a room full of rocking chairs?_

----------


## MarkBastable

The underlines (not dashes) in the sentence in a previous puzzle, incidentally, were indeed italic indicators. 

I'm just trying to piece together the history here, to explain why that was done. I've never thought about it before, but I think that that notation is a sort of transitional thing.

In the days before computers and word processing packages (yes, yes, dearly beloved, surely there was such a time), when people used typewriters, long before the elephant got his trunk, standard manuscript notation to indicate italics was to underline the entire word. You'd type it and then backspace and underline it using the underline key.

You were essentially using two characters in the same typed space - you were overtyping, but the underline (just) fitted beneath the letter.

When people started using computers, there was a problem. On a computer, the underline couldn't be typed in the same character space as a letter - but there weren't yet any word processing packages that could render italics. In fact, there weren't even any fonts. I'm talking here about green-screen terminals of big SMERSH computers in the basement of your office building. No one yet had a PC at home, and the summers were long and hot, the kids showed some respect and there was always clean snow on Christmas morning.

So the convention to express italics was to put the underline before and after the _word_ you wanted italicised. Looks ugly as hell, but everyone got used to it.

They got _so_ used to it, in fact, that even in the mid-nineties, by which time people had home PCs and MSWord and such apps, it was still required by some publishers and typesetters that italics be expressed in this way. 

Christ, I feel old.

----------


## prendrelemick

As old as Methuselah,s Grannie! I read the dog and rocking chairs metaphor on a cricket blog. - Odd metaphors are very popular in the Cricet world at the moment.

----------


## prendrelemick

As old as Methuselah,s Grannie! I read the dog and rocking chairs metaphor on a cricket blog. - Odd metaphors are very popular in the Cricket world at the moment.

----------


## prendrelemick

To keep the thread ticking over...


Nun has lived-in look.

----------


## MarkBastable

I suspect it's _sinister_.

But usually cryptic clues have not only what you might call the constructive part (_put the word 'in' into a word for 'nun'_), but also the synonymous part (_the answer is the equivalent of 'left',_for instance). Without that second bit, you've got no corroboration, as it were.

So unless 'look' is the equivalent of 'sinister' - which I think would be a tough sell to regular _Times_ solvers - my guess is only that, and not internally supported, really.


Anyway, assuming it's my go....

Which is the odd one out?

Milton, Heaney, Tennyson, Penn Warren, Betjeman, Frost

----------


## prendrelemick

The thing with Cryptic clues, is that there are many kinds. Different compliers use different clues as to the type of clue you have, so words like _embedded_, _engulfed, mixed up, sounds like_ and _perhaps_, have to be watched for. Some need a deeply analytical approach, watching out for references and allusions and substitutions and such. Some need a carefull perusal for anagrams and words hidden between words and other trickery. Then there are those that are deceptively simple, where you have to stand back and clear your mind and the answer is obvious (once you've solved it.) They all contain (as you say) at least two hints at the answer, the bit to be worked upon and the bit for confirmation. 




No, not sinister

----------


## MarkBastable

> The thing with Cryptic clues, is that there are many kinds, though they all contain (as you say) at least two hints at the answer. Some need a deeply analytical approach, watching out for references and allusions and substitutions and such. Some need a carefull perusal for anagrams and words hidden between words and other trickery. Then there are those that are deceptively simple, where you have to stand back and clear your mind and the answer is obvious (once you've solved it.) 
> 
> 
> No, not sinister



Crap. In that case, put my entire peroration on hold, until we have an answer. I mean, it's still true, but it might not be true in this case.

----------


## prendrelemick

Granted sinister works nicely, but I would have put something like . "something strange left in a Nun, or Mostly inside left handed nun."

----------


## MarkBastable

How many letters?

----------


## prendrelemick

9 letters


(Its not really a cryptic clue, its a word substitution plus a corroboration, disguised as a criptic.)

----------


## billl

Heaven?

("devil" is spelled backwards, and a nun looks like she'd be quite at home in Heaven.)


EDIT: Hah, never mind, that isn't 9 letters.

----------


## prendrelemick

you're being far too clever.

----------


## billl

virginity?

----------


## MarkBastable

inhabited

----------


## prendrelemick

Yes.

So, back to your question.







> Which is the odd one out?
> 
> Milton, Heaney, Tennyson, Penn Warren, Betjeman, Frost

----------


## Scheherazade

Milton?

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Milton wasn't poet laureate

----------


## MarkBastable

Yep...

----------


## billl

Pedf dxa xwahv pehp d ehsa df jtdpa iqqk, otp dp'f pdva pq iap ohxr pq pea nhwhka qc ydca. Fqvapdvaf dp fpdmrf, otp gqt masaw rmqz zehp zdyk fptcc zdyy ehnnam hwqtmk pea mabp xqwmaw. Otp d yqsa pedf xwhn... D fphwa kqzm fptcc pehp xqtyk rdyy gqt dc dp cqtmk gqt. Zeawa hv d?

----------


## MarkBastable

I think the reference is beyond me. I have no idea what's implied by the ice cream.

----------


## billl

A clue will eventually come along, if necessary.

----------


## billl

What with this thread losing a bit of steam recently, my latest puzzle pretty much requiring a computer printout, and regulars being scattered across time zones, etc., it's hard to pace things well, as far as clues go.

Really, the best clue I could possibly give isn't in the puzzle at all.

----------


## Scheherazade

Is this based on a code, Bill? Ie, d=a, f=n etc?

----------


## billl

Yes, Scher, it's something like that, eventually revealing a mystery that managed to stop MarkBastable in his tracks.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Is this based on a code, Bill? Ie, d=a, f=n etc?


I've done that bit. I just don't know what it means when it's translated.

Take the uppercase version to Word and replace uppercase 'in' with lowercase 'out' letters, starting with those in the last sentence which is a dead giveaway. Soon you'll have a para in English - which seems to allude to an ice cream situation I don't know about. But maybe I'm missing something.

----------


## kasie

I've got the paragraph de-coded but, like MB, don't know what it means. Is it a quotation from a book? If so, I might have an ide, but it's so long since I read it (the book I think it might be) that I'm not really sure.

----------


## billl

I hope the clue I gave helps! (Not from a book, it's an original riddle.)

----------


## kasie

A ringmaster in a circus during the interval? Nah, can't be - can it?

----------


## billl

VERRRRRYYYYY CLOSE, Kasie. (Did the clue help? Maybe not...?) Anyhow, pretty close....

But no.

----------


## prendrelemick

Are you in a zoo? or an animal park of some kind? Watching a circus parade? (do they still have them)

----------


## kasie

A policeman on traffic control taking a break? (Thinking how you suggested this might stop MB in his tracks....)

----------


## billl

I want to give the win to kasie, but mick has stumbled upon it. The only letter not in the puzzle's solution (and its encoded analogue is, of course, also missing in the encryption puzzle) is the letter "z". 

Stopping MB in his tracks wasn't a clue, sorry about that. And the "parade of life" bit was a little more misleading than I should've made it, probably. "...on my parade through life," or something would've been better, but I was trying to eliminate unnecessary words because I didn't want it too long, and so that bit got a little weak.

Anyhow, I had imagined myself at the zoo, relaxing for a few minutes with some ice cream. Mick got it.

----------


## prendrelemick

Wh'd'ya mean stumbled!


what have the following in common.


Salmon
Island
Sword


In the unlikely event that no one gets it, I will add another each day.

----------


## billl

OK, you're right, you exhibited some skill when you got it in your sights, fair and square--but you took down two innocent scenarios with your scattershot blast.

----------


## iamnobody

> Wh'd'ya mean stumbled!
> 
> 
> what have the following in common.
> 
> 
> Salmon
> Island
> Sword
> ...


Maybe not the answer you're looking for but, they all have silent letters.

----------


## prendrelemick

Correct.

Your go.

----------


## iamnobody

The following words have been placed in this order for a reason. What is it?

Trick
Squad
Serpent
Cathexis
Antiseptic
Octopus

----------


## MarkBastable

> The following words have been placed in this order for a reason. What is it?
> 
> Trick
> Squad
> Serpent
> Cathexis
> Antiseptic
> Octopus


The relative ages of the languages from which they originate?

(Total speculation. I'm much too lazy to do research.)

----------


## iamnobody

Not it.

----------


## billl

To stump us.

----------


## iamnobody

It would help to be thinking mathematically.

----------


## jajdude

> The following words have been placed in this order for a reason. What is it?
> 
> Trick
> Squad
> Serpent
> Cathexis
> Antiseptic
> Octopus


Tri, quad, pent, "six", sept, octo.

----------


## iamnobody

Sooo close, but you're off by one. "Six" is "hex". Close enough.

Your turn.

----------


## prendrelemick

^That's brilliant. I was barking up the completely wrong river.

----------


## jajdude

Ok, how about detecting something notable in this sentence:

One time the forest felt strange.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Ok, how about detecting something notable in this sentence:
> 
> One time the forest felt strange.


It's an anagram of another sentence that means exactly the same thing.

----------


## prendrelemick

we're back to one, two, three, four, five, six.

----------


## jajdude

Yeah, I was lazy. If anyone can come up with that anagram I'd be impressed though.

----------


## Scheherazade

Truth be told, I have lots interest in the thread because some questions do not seem to offer enough mental excitement for me; I like it when I reach for pen and paper, so to speak, and work something out.

----------


## prendrelemick

Strange felt the forest one time. 

There's your anagram :Biggrin5: 



Next one.

Everything was hunky dory until the phone rang -not one of my pet sounds at that time in the morning- like a dummy, I grabbed it off the wall. Hi! What's going on? I said in my best Steve McQueen voice. The Woman on the other end sounded different class. You gotta help me she said. I held the phone closer, that voice had more raw power than a loaded revolver. My place has been ransacked, some of my vinyl is missing, but I don't know which ones. It's a sign o' the times doll, I drawled, but nevermind, I'm on the case!


There were at least 13 albums missing from her record collection. All top one hundred greatest of all time stuff, how many can you name? Bonus points for the artists.


Sorry scher no pencil needed.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

First three:

Hunky Dory - David Bowie

Pet Sounds - The Beach Boys

Revolver - The Beatles


Is it singles as well? Because Prince's Sign O' The Times, Off the Wall by Michael Jackson, What's Going On? by Four Non-Blondes, and few that seem to be obscured

----------


## MANICHAEAN

What's the speed of dark?

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Slightly faster than the speed of light - whenever light gets there, dark has already arrived and sitting comfortably on the couch with a stein of beer

----------


## MarkBastable

_Dummy_ - Portishead

_Steve McQueen_ - Prefab Sprout

_Different Class_ - Pulp

_Closer_ - Joy Division

_Loaded_ - Velvet Underground

_Raw Power_ - Iggy and the Stooges

_Nevermind_ - Nirvana


Plus MM's three (_Hunky Dory_, _Pet Sounds_ and _Revolver_) - and _Sign o' the Times_ and _Off the Wall_ are in fact both albums, as is_ What's Going On_ by Marvin Gaye.

----------


## billl

I couldn't spot anymore. (The was a Bangles album called "Everything", but, uh...)

----------


## MarkBastable

These can be grouped in threes - which is the one left over?

rain breast eye blood
mist haze peel
fever hammer
tit belly patch balls

----------


## billl

> These can be grouped in threes - which is the one left over?
> 
> rain breast eye blood
> mist haze peel
> fever hammer
> tit belly patch


I don't know if I am misunderstanding the puzzle, or if there was meant to be an additional word (or two less words) in the list. The way I saw it, since there are twelve words in the list, I was able to make four groups of three, with no words left over. Therefore, I have assembled three groups of three, as well as a fourth group of words that would not fit in the first three groups.

rain tit mist (words containing the letter "i" once)
eye peel fever (words containing the letter "e" twice)
breast haze hammer (words containing the letters "e" and "a" once each)
blood belly patch (the left overs)

Again, my groupings are probably all wrong ("rain" having an "a" in it, unlike its relatives, is particularly suspicious), I'm just throwing it out there.

----------


## MarkBastable

Crap - I missed one out. See edited original post. 

Yeah, you need four groups of three which will leave one over.

Apologies, bill.





> I don't know if I am misunderstanding the puzzle, or if there was meant to be an additional word (or two less words) in the list. The way I saw it, since there are twelve words in the list, I was able to make four groups of three, with no words left over. Therefore, I have assembled three groups of three, as well as a fourth group of words that would not fit in the first three groups.
> 
> rain tit mist (words containing the letter "i" once)
> eye peel fever (words containing the letter "e" twice)
> breast haze hammer (words containing the letters "e" and "a" once each)
> blood belly patch (the left overs)
> 
> Again, my groupings are probably all wrong ("rain" having an "a" in it, unlike its relatives, is particularly suspicious), I'm just throwing it out there.

----------


## billl

No problem! Well, actually, I think I'll probably have a big problem figuring it out.

----------


## Scheherazade

Fever hammer?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Fever hammer?


One left over - so, fever _or_ hammer. Which is it? And why?

Don't be misled by the layout either. It could as easily have been this....

_rain breast eye blood mist haze peel fever hammer tit belly patch balls_ 

And the order they're given here doesn't matter either.

----------


## billl

All of the words will remain English words after having one or more letters removed from them, except for the word "eye".

Groupings:
fever ever, tit it, peel eel (remove first letter)
mist is, blood loo, balls all (remove first and last letters)
breast beast, rain ran, patch path (remove one interior letter)
haze he, hammer her, belly by (remove more than one interior letter)

NOTE: "breast" could also, unfortunately, fit into the last grouping (thus yielding "best"), and so this final grouping finally makes my suggested system here look a little less elegant than the first three groupings seemed to be promising.

----------


## MANICHAEAN

What happens if you get scared half to death, twice?

----------


## Cunninglinguist

> What happens if you get scared half to death, twice?


You void you bowels.

----------


## MarkBastable

> All of the words will remain English words after having one or more letters removed from them, except for the word "eye".
> 
> Groupings:
> fever ever, tit it, peel eel (remove first letter)
> mist is, blood loo, balls all (remove first and last letters)
> breast beast, rain ran, patch path (remove one interior letter)
> haze he, hammer her, belly by (remove more than one interior letter)
> 
> NOTE: "breast" could also, unfortunately, fit into the last grouping (thus yielding "best"), and so this final grouping finally makes my suggested system here look a little less elegant than the first three groupings seemed to be promising.



So much thought appears to have gone into that it seems almost churlish to say, _No, not even close_.

----------


## prendrelemick

I have a strong feeling its hammer. Now to work out why.



I'm thinking colours

----------


## MarkBastable

It's not _hammer_.

I may have overcomplicated it. I can make it simpler by cutting it down to these, primarily...

_breast eye blood mist peel fever hammer tit belly balls_

----------


## prendrelemick

Its peel, which is orange.

haze, patch, rain. purple
blood, tit, balls?. blue
fever, belly, hammer yellow
mist, breast, eye. red

----------


## MarkBastable

Yep. Well done.

An American will happen by any minute to explain 'blue balls'....

----------


## prendrelemick

I'm not sure I want to know.


Here's one for Scher. I copied it, because I wouldn't know where to begin to do one of these. I don't know if its hard or easy.

----------


## billl

Does anyone here have experience with these? Maybe there's a name for them...

EDIT: removed a rambling and roundabout exploration of the question of "operator precedence" in this puzzle.

----------


## billl

Mick, have you seen the solution to this one? Does the math check out? I have a VERY NEAR solution, but the hand-written alterations (?) have me wondering if there was something amiss along the way. That, combined with the issue of operator precedence. (I actually thought I had the right answer, but I was working in pen and missed the negative sign.)

I have a "solution", but the 36 isn't negative. Maybe I just have to work harder, but I'd like confirmation that there's a solution that checks out, if possible.

Again, the "solution" I have is done without operator precedence... I just went left-to-right, and top-down: multiplication didn't necessarily come before addition. (e.g. 1+2x3=9 is the nature of the solution I found.)

I'll post this "near answer" later if it stumps everyone for too long, and if Mick allows me to do so. That's just a sketchy looking puzzle--but my apologies, of course, if that is your handwriting, Mick.

----------


## prendrelemick

Ah-ha Well spotted billl. I copied the puzzle straight from an old newspaper - and they have misprinted it - or made a mistake. I reckon that minus sign is wrong too, but it is there in the original.


That'll larn me not to use other peoples puzzles.


I left no instructions to add an extra layer of puzzlement.

----------


## billl

So you saw the solution, and it didn't add up? Or is it correctly copied from a respectable newspaper?

I may have found a way (well, it isn't as simple as a single 'way') to prove that it is unsolvable, with or without operator precedence--but I'm not a professional mathematician, so... Looking at the mess on my note pad, there's no real reason to be very confident about it at all. Still, the top row and the first two columns produce certain limitations...


here's a tantalizingly close grid for the "using operator precedence" angle (middle row *just misses*):

+1, +8, +8
-1, +1, +13
-10, -13, +2

----------


## prendrelemick

Sorry billl lets start again.

Ok, I wish I had never started this one, I am a total knobhead at maths.

The grid below is correct . (checked and double checked.)

The boxes along the bottom are totals of the column above them
The boxes down the right are totals of the line to the left of them

Those dashes are minus signs.

All you have to do is fill in the blanks.

----------


## MarkBastable

The problem, for me, is that the number above 21 has to be 21 because 1*x is always x.

And if it is 21, then the number to the right of 21 has to be -1.72, in order to get to -36.

At which point, I rather lose faith in either the puzzle or my understanding of it.

----------


## prendrelemick

There is a number above the one (or the minus one I should say)
so its something minus 1 times something equals 21

----------


## MarkBastable

> There is a number above the one (or the minus one I should say)
> so its something minus 1 times something equals 21


Yeah, which would imply operator precedence _and_ implicit brackets, wouldn't it? I mean, you'd have to have brackets around the (something minus something) in order for that bit to be done before the multiplication.

----------


## prendrelemick

Start at the end furthest from the total

----------


## billl

Thanks, Mick! I figured out an angle of attack that I had previously ignored, so I might be looking at it some more tonight.

(I think this is a good one, btw, now that the doubts have been addressed. Maybe it is just really difficult.)

----------


## billl

Got it!


2,4,8
5,1,6
3,7,9

Looks easy all of a sudden. I thought I checked it last night, but I must have left a negative sign in a blank unerased or something.


Here's a crappy attempt to display the whole thing with the symbols:

2 x 4 - 8 = 0
- . - . -
5 - 1 + 6 = 10
x . x . -
3 - 7 x 9 =-36
==============
-9 21 . -7

----------


## prendrelemick

That's correct billl. I'm such a numpty at maths I didn't know about operator whatsits.

----------


## billl

I think I may have blown a legitimate concern (operator precedence) way out of proportion, and then cast a stain of suspicion over what turned out to be a challenging and welcome addition to the thread, and I really do apologize Mick. Like Scher, I enjoy getting away from the screen and using pencil and paper for a while, at least some of the time. I just came across some near misses, looked at the hand-written alterations, and figured it wasn't MY fault that I wasn't getting it, or something, so again, I'm sorry about that.

Anyhow, I have no idea where Scher is, but I have another that might be a little fun to work on with pencil and paper. It shouldn't take quite so long, however, as this last one did... With luck, Scher and few more of us will get a crack at it before it gets solved.

*If you get the solution in the first few hours, consider sending me a Private Message rather than posting in this thread, and I'll be sure to give you credit as first to solve it (if you are):*



*The puzzle of the socalled "Poster Variations".*
There was recently a (since-deleted) thread on LitNet that explored a topic I dare not revisit, even in vaguest summary. By mentioning that it involved hanging chads and escalatingly ribald personal accusations, I only invite the risk of censorship once more.

However it should be possible to reconstruct the basic structure of the thread by using the clues below. See if you can describe which particular posts were written by which particular poster, and which posts (if any) the particular posts were in response to (a post can only be in response to ONE other post).


Six posts total.Only one post received more than one reply.No one replied to the 4th post.IamNobody was the last person to participate in the thread.Mark was the last person to participate in the thread.IamNobody replied to Scher twice.Scher replied to IamNobody and Mick.Mark replied to the reply to the OP.

----------


## MarkBastable

Can you check out the fourth and fifth bulletpoints?

----------


## billl

Let's call that "word play". Both are true.

----------


## MarkBastable

Okay - in which case, please check your inbox. I think it covers all the criteria including the wordplay.


Edit: In case you're wondering, I didn't get it quite right. This what comes of trying to do it on a train on your iPhone. I attempted to memorise the criteria and then figure the problem out by drawing with my fingertip in a patch of condensed breath on the train window. 

I was travelling, by the way, with a colleague, and I told him I was defining the payment structure for the contract we were travelling to a client site to discuss.

----------


## billl

Is it about time for a hint?


HINT:
Consider a thread that begins with 4 posts by the following people: Allan, Bob, Bob (again), and then Carl. Who posted first in the thread? Who posted second? Who posted third?

----------


## prendrelemick

I needed about 8 posts to meet all conditions, but ^ is helpful

----------


## Scheherazade

Oh, have I been missing all the fun?

I am sorry but have been busier than usual this week. Will give play around with this one today while at work.

----------


## billl

Well, now that everyone (incl. Scher and Mick) has had a fair chance to consider and take a crack at it, I think it'd be fine if we just posted solutions in the thread as normal. Send me a private message if you want, or if there's a particular question, but otherwise I think using the thread is perfectly fun and fair. Mick just sent me a pretty funny compilation of possible offensive posts, actually...

Anyhow, here's another HINT:

It might be the case that a certain person only posted once, and that he or she was the LAST to participate. However, that doesn't mean he or she posted the last post in the thread... For example, a person that had posted EARLIER than him or her might post again, AFTER he or she did.

EXAMPLE: This is page 39 of this thread. As of this post (number 577), I am the LAST person to participate on this page. However, isn't it also true that I participated before Scheherezade did, on this page...?
Try to deduce who did Post Number One in the puzzle, and then who could have done Post Number Six...

----------


## Scheherazade

Been trying but not getting anywhere.

Just want to ask whether the same poster can make two consecutive posts as I have been trying to avoid this.

----------


## billl

> Been trying but not getting anywhere.
> 
> Just want to ask whether the same poster can make two consecutive posts as I have been trying to avoid this.


They can (but it doesn't happen).



(EDIT: I think you guys can get this one. Again, begin by figuring out who did post number one and who did post number six. It's of course easy for me to say, though... I'm really quite delighted that it's proven such a challenge. But if you feel like you're getting too bored with it to really apply the analysis anymore, and would rather work on something else, please maybe provide some delicate hints... I'm thinking tomorrow or later today, I could give a clue/approach that would make this thing easier, but it might be a dead give-away. What with schedules and other things, for all I know everyone is just getting started on this.

Basically, I don't want to become the dude with the boring puzzle that killed the thread. But I think this thing is doable by you guys.)

----------


## billl

Another HINT/strategy for solving:

Focus on IamNobody and Scher. I think you should probably be able to determine the order in which their posts occur in the thread.

----------


## Cunninglinguist

nevermind

----------


## prendrelemick

How's this (I modified opinions and language for the public domain)

1 Scher- "Chavs are misunderstood children "

2 IAN- replies to (1) "I think they need a jolly good talking to" Replying to scher for the first time

3 Mick replies to (1) "Misunderstood!! String em up, I say"  Thus post (1) has 2 replies

4 Mark replies to (2) "**[email protected]@/#~!!!" Thus Mark replies to the reply of the OP and is the last of the four to participate.

5 Sher replies to (3) "You can't do that!" Thus Sher replies to Mick

6 IAN replies to (5) "He has a point though." Thus she replies to Scher twice and is last to participate.

Ta dar!!

----------


## billl

Close! However, one of the clues states that Scher replies to Mick and IamNobody. But you most certainly do not have to *totally* revamp your attempt, it really is pretty close.

----------


## prendrelemick

Ok, brain just about frazzled.


1- Mick is op
2- Scher replies
3- IaN replies to Scher for first time.
4- Mark replies to Scher (2nd reply for 2nd post)
5- Sher replies to IaN
6- Ian replies to Scher for the second time.

----------


## billl

Yes, that's the solution--thanks for working it through and bringing an end to its tortuous reign. I feel like I should apologize or something, because it was harder than I expected, and it probably made people a little frustrated and crazy. I mean puzzles are supposed to do that, but I can't help but feel guilty taking up five days. To think, my initial fear was that it would be done too soon for everyone to get a shot at it... 

I guess there were too many clues, perhaps, and it's a little different kind of logic puzzle than the usual ones with grids.

----------


## prendrelemick

Don't worry about that, it was up for 5 days but I reckon people only spend a few spare minutes here and there on it.

So, onwards-

Rorden Gamsey, a foul mouthed, scary, celebrity chef, barks an order to the timid Fish Fryer Freddy.

"I need three rare tuna steaks in exactly 3 minutes, or I'll have your guts for garters."

Fish Fryer Freddy knows rare tuna steaks must be fried for one minute on each side. He also knows that his frying pan will only hold 2 steaks at once.

"Yes Chef. No problem Chef" he shouts back.

How does he do it?

----------


## kasie

He puts two steaks in the pan; after one minute he turns one steak, removes the other steak and keeps it warm and puts in the third steak; after a further minute he removes the first steak, keeps it warm, returns the second steak to the pan to cook the other side and turns the third steak. At the end of the third minute he plates all three rare steaks and shouts 'Ready, Chef.'

----------


## Scheherazade

Excellent solution, Kasie!  :Smile: 

Just going back to the previous puzzle (I am not arguing but trying to understand)... Because there were two last posts to the thread, I had assumed that one of those was a direct reply to the OP and the other one was a reply to one of the other posts in the thread. And since Mark was mentioned as having replied to another poster, I, again, assumed that his would be the very last post in the thread and IaN would be the last person to reply to the OP.

I am not sure how the solution given accommodates these. Can someone explain please?


> Six posts total.Only one post received more than one reply.No one replied to the 4th post.IamNobody was the last person to participate in the thread.Mark was the last person to participate in the thread.IamNobody replied to Scher twice.Scher replied to IamNobody and Mick.Mark replied to the reply to the OP.





> 1- Mick is op
> 2- Scher replies
> 3- IaN replies to Scher for first time.
> 4- Mark replies to Scher (2nd reply for 2nd post)
> 5- Sher replies to IaN
> 6- Ian replies to Scher for the second time.

----------


## billl

Scher, I'm not sure what you are saying when you say that 1) a reply to the OP, and 2) post number 6 being a reply to something in the middle four posts would mean two "last posts" or whatever--I think that the whole "reply" angle is being looked at in a way I hadn't forseen or something, maybe. And I'll admit that the wordplay and spaghetti-type nature of this means I might be missing something pretty interesting.

Here's how Mick's solution works for IamNobody and Mark being "last":
--IamNobody is last because he did the final post (number 6).
--Mark is last because his post comes after everyone else has posted (he was the last one to join the discussion).
In this interpretation/solution, the matter of "replies" doesn't affect who is "last".

AHHHHHHHHHH....
It just occurred to me what you might be getting at!
Are you saying that you had envisioned a pair of "strings of replies"? Like someone replies to someone who had replied to someone, and the last in that string can be considered "the last to participate" in that series of replies? With one string beginning with the OP, and the other string involving the other posts that are not part of the OP's string of replies?

Since that particular pair of clues is built on wordplay, I'd have to say such a solution would be permissable, yeah! (If there is one...)

----------


## Scheherazade

> --Mark is last because his post comes after everyone else has posted (he was the last one to join the discussion).
> In this interpretation/solution, the matter of "replies" doesn't affect who is "last".


Gotcha!


> With one string beginning with the OP, and the other string involving the other posts that are not part of the OP's string of replies?


Yeah, something along those lines.


> Since that particular pair of clues is built on wordplay, I'd have to say such a solution would be permissable, yeah! (If there is one...)


Well, _obviously_ , I could not come with it if it exists!  :Tongue:  Not with 6 posts, at least (I think I managed it with 7, though).

Thanks for the reply, Bill  :Smile:

----------


## billl

No problem! Now I have to see if I can resist the urge to re-check all of the possibilities you already explored using the "strings of replies" interpretation, trying to match your seven.

----------


## prendrelemick

> He puts two steaks in the pan; after one minute he turns one steak, removes the other steak and keeps it warm and puts in the third steak; after a further minute he removes the first steak, keeps it warm, returns the second steak to the pan to cook the other side and turns the third steak. At the end of the third minute he plates all three rare steaks and shouts 'Ready, Chef.'




Correct! Now Kasie your turn, I'm not sure we can accept any more IOU's :Hand:

----------


## kasie

Oh dear, I knew I shouldn't have posted that answer - I am puzzled for a puzzle atm so I will have to think about it for a while.....

OK - I've thunk. I did a quick check and I don't think we've had this one before. If we have, then I apologise.

A farmer goes to market. He buys twenty sheep; he also buys twenty hurdles to make a small temporary fold in which to keep his new acquisitions. He calculates that twenty hurdles will just hold them comfortably. After a swift half at the Dog and Crook (Ramsbottom's Best, of course) he returns to the auction and buys a further twenty sheep, a bargain too good to miss. He then realises that he needs to buy more hurdles as he has doubled the size of his new flock. So - how many more hurdles does he need to buy to double the size of his enclosure? Remember he has already spent more on the sheep than he intended so he doesn't want to spend too much on the hurdles - what's the smallest number he can get away with?

----------


## prendrelemick

He goes back to the pub, and works out on a beer mat 20 Hurdles arranged 5x5 makes 25 sq Hurdles so twice the sheep will need 50sq Hurdles which is a pen 10x5. As he contemplates the 10 extra Hurdles he will need, he orders a pie and a pint.


As he stares at his round pint glass and nibbles on his Pie an Idea is slowly forming in his head, pie...pie...pi! And he realises he can get away with fewer hurdles by making a round pen. only 5 or 6 extra .

Sorry I can't do the maths (lost my calculator) but the square root of 50 over pi will be the necessary radius, then times 2 and times pi. and that is the number of hurdles (I think.)

----------


## billl

Imprecise, yes. But flashy!

----------


## Scheherazade

ESOL / NON-NATIVE ALERT!!!

What are hurdles???

----------


## kasie

Scher - hurdles are like fencing panels, portable frames with bars or brushwood in them: the farmer can move then around easily to make temporary enclosures. Sorry, it's a bit archaic, it's a very old puzzle, one I dragged back from my long-lost youth.

Mick, that is of course a shepherd's pie, isn't it? Which can be made rectangular, not necessarily round..... Have another pint and re-calculate.

----------


## billl

7.14 x 7.14

No way is that correct, but I might be just short of the correct answer. Unless Mick is on the right path. Orrrr any other number of reasons for me likely being wrong.

----------


## kasie

No, the farmer does not have to cut or bend any of the hurdles to make his sheep fold.

----------


## billl

Mick's math, approximated.

area = pi R*R
50 = pi R*R
R = square root of (50/pi)
R = square root of (15.9)
Circumference = 2 pi R = 2 pi (4.0) = 8 pi = 25.12 = 26 hurdles, so he'd need six more hurdles. And they'd have to be bendable, which Kasie rules out, OR the math gets more difficult and he needs maybe one or two (zero?) extra to make up for the relatively blocky nature of this "circular" pen.

************************************************** **********

Alternately, going back to the 5 x 5 = 25 sq feet being fine for 20 cows, then we can go with 8 x 7 rectangle having 56 sq feet being plenty enough room for 40 cows (and 7 x7 not being quite big enough).

So he'd need 10 more hurdles, if we do an 8 x 7 rectangular enclosure.

Maybe?

----------


## prendrelemick

Thanks for doing the sums Billl.


Course, if his first pen was round, (or a twenty sided polygon-which is round enough for farmers,) then the assumed 50 square hurdles needed is wrong.

----------


## billl

Yes, well, we'll work THAT scenario through soon enough.

----------


## kasie

You're all being far too complicated - this is Kasie, remember, who can't do Maths. This is a theoretical puzzle, they are theoretical sheep, very small theoretical sheep, so don't think animal welfare and how much room a real sheep would need, think _x_ number of units arranged to make a four sided shape the area of which is doubled by the addition of a minimum number of further units. 

Please - someone work it out - I'm already packing for New York, I'll be off on Saturday, I'll have to tell you the answer, oh, I wish I hadn't started this one.

----------


## billl

If it comes down to it, you could PM me or someone else with the answer!

----------


## MarkBastable

But what's wrong with the answers given so far?

----------


## kasie

The question was: what's the least number of hurdles he needs to buy to double the area of his enclosure? So far no one has come up with the (very small) number he need buy.

----------


## MarkBastable

> The question was: what's the least number of hurdles he needs to buy to double the area of his enclosure? So far no one has come up with the (very small) number he need buy.


Fair enough. They're wrong.

----------


## billl

Was the original enclosure a square or rectangle? Was it 5 x 5? Or could it have been 1 x 9, for example? Or a pyramid?

Definitely a square?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Was the original enclosure a square or rectangle? 
> Definitely a square?


At no point is that made explicit. So I'm starting from the assumption that we can't make that assumption.

----------


## jajdude

With 20 hurdles (also unfamiliar with this usage of the word) he can make a rectangle that is 7 by 5: area is 35. 

XXXXXXX
X..........X
X..........X
X..........X
XXXXXXX

I guess the dots are sheep poop.

With forty sheep he needs an area of 70, 7 by 10.

That's 30 hurdles

XXXXXXXXXX
X................X
X................X
X................X
X................X
X................X
XXXXXXXXXX 

And looks like a lot more poop.

Didn't someone already give this answer?

Come to think of it, wouldn't the biggest enclosure be a circle?

How to draw that, and measure the area?

Didn't somebody else also have this idea before me?

Darn it! I'll assume the 20 sheep can fit in a 9 by 3 enclosure: 

XXXXXXXXX
X..............X
XXXXXXXXX

Area, who cares?

Double size:

XXXXXXXXX
X..............X
X..............X
XXXXXXXXX

2 more X's

----------


## prendrelemick

jajdude, you are a genius

----------


## kasie

Hooray - he's right! The original enclosure was a rectangle 9 x 1 (20 hurdles altogether.) By adding one hurdle at each short end to make a rectangle 9 x 2 (22 hurdles altogether) the farmer has doubled the area of the enclosure at the expenditure of only two further hurdles. (It's hard to draw using only keyboard symbols because the hurdles would join corner to corner and edge to edge.)

Thanks, jj, now I can go off to NY and miss the groans that will be hurled in my direction. See you in a week's time, folks - try to behave while I'm away. Or on the other hand, you could just have fun.

----------


## jajdude

yeah, stumbled for a while on that one because was thinking too mathematically I guess, which seems to have thrown others off too. Forgetting about "area" seemed to help find the answer. 

Will try to think of a new one soon. Don't really have any ideas.

----------


## MarkBastable

This is an interesting feeling. I'm simultaneously pissed off and impressed.

----------


## billl

Actually, there is way in which a farmer could have doubled the area of his four-sided enclosure without the addition of any hurdles. If he had begun by enclosing the first 20 sheep with the enclosure's four sides in the shape of a parallelogram with corners set at 45 and 135 degrees, he could double the area of the enclosure simply by shifting the four sides into the shape of a rectangle (ie. setting all the corners at 90 degrees).

----------


## jajdude

A number with two digits is equal to five times the sum of its digits. If you add 9 to the number, the order of its digits is reversed. What is the number?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Actually, there is way in which a farmer could have doubled the area of his four-sided enclosure without the addition of any hurdles. If he had begun by enclosing the first 20 sheep with the enclosure's four sides in the shape of a parallelogram with corners set at 45 and 135 degrees, he could double the area of the enclosure simply by shifting the four sides into the shape of a rectangle (ie. setting all the corners at 90 degrees).


Except that he didn't know when he bought the hurdles that he'd buy more sheep, so he'd have been unlikely to have arranged the hurdles in such a way that.... Actually I'm not sure we want to get into the possible motives and geometrical inventiveness of the fictional farmer...

----------


## MarkBastable

> a number with two digits is equal to five times the sum of its digits. If you add 9 to the number, the order of its digits is reversed. What is the number?


45...

----------


## jajdude

yeah, too easy.

----------


## billl

It's an interesting one, and a little easy is a nice change of pace.

----------


## prendrelemick

> Actually, there is way in which a farmer could have doubled the area of his four-sided enclosure without the addition of any hurdles. If he had begun by enclosing the first 20 sheep with the enclosure's four sides in the shape of a parallelogram with corners set at 45 and 135 degrees, he could double the area of the enclosure simply by shifting the four sides into the shape of a rectangle (ie. setting all the corners at 90 degrees).





> Except that he didn't know when he bought the hurdles that he'd buy more sheep, so he'd have been unlikely to have arranged the hurdles in such a way that.... Actually I'm not sure we want to get into the possible motives and geometrical inventiveness of the fictional farmer...



Whereas all the above is true, jajdude was able to find the sheep in amongst all that wool.

----------


## MarkBastable

Mpe od yjr eomyrt pg pit fodvpnyrmy. ,sfr h;ptopid si,,rt nu yjod dpm pg Uptl/

----------


## prendrelemick

smf s;; yjr v;pifd yjsy ;pit#f i[pm pit jpidr,

----------


## MarkBastable

s jptdr" s jptdr"

(smf dp pm)

----------


## MarkBastable

Shall we say this one's solved, in which case I'll give the solution - or would others like to have a go at it, although Mick'll be taken as the winner?

----------


## billl

Here's my lame assent to Mick's victory:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_PZPpWTRTU

----------


## MarkBastable

Yeah, alright.

Mpe od yjr eomyrt pg pit fodvpnyrmy. ,sfr h;ptopid si,,rt nu yjod dpm pg Uptl/ 
_Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious summer by this son of York._

Typed using the key to the right of the correct one on a standard QWERTY. Mick responded using the key to the left of the correct one.

----------


## jajdude

next one Mick?

----------


## prendrelemick

Its another one of these. *BUT* this time here are the rules.

_Fill the empty squares with numbers that will make the across and down calculations produce the results shown along the bottom and far right. The numbers 1 -9 must appear once only. The calculations should be performed from top to bottom and from left to right (rather than strict mathematical order)_

----------


## jajdude

may be wrong

----------


## jajdude

I know it, but will not say.

----------


## MarkBastable

276
389
415

----------


## MarkBastable

A quick one. Which is the odd-one-out?


gland
terror
pretty
flash
salads

----------


## Cunninglinguist

Pretty - it being the only adjective?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Pretty - it being the only adjective?


Nope.

Well, I mean - yeah. But no.

----------


## prendrelemick

Pretty.

The others have words within words: land error lash lads.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Pretty.
> 
> The others have words within words: land error lash lads.


Nope, too.

My feeling is that when respondents come up with a plausible answer, I should not just say they're wrong, but feedback a further clue that demonstrates that it's not that; it's something else. When I said 'yeah' to the first guess, I meant, "Yeah - that's true, but it's not the right answer..." (I won't say whether or not it was the right word.)

So, in response to both the guesses so far....

_pure_

could be in there, but would not be the odd-one-out...

----------


## prendrelemick

Remember the great Roy Walker of Catchphrase.


"That's a good answer........But not right!"

----------


## jajdude

I'll go with "terror."

The others are not as scary.

Still wrong I know.

----------


## billl

"Salads"

Only one with a repeated vowel in it.

This answer is unbelievably boring and undoubtedly wrong, but it (and jajdude's) might help earn us another example like "pure".

----------


## MarkBastable

_rotor_

...would not be the odd-one-out.

----------


## iamnobody

Gland, as all others can be typed on a single line of a qwerty keyboard.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Gland, as all others can be typed on a single line of a qwerty keyboard.


...Yup.

----------


## iamnobody

What do the following states (listed alphabetically) have in common?

Alaska
Arizona
California
Connecticut
Hawaii
Illinois
Kentucky
Maine
Minnesota
New Hampshire
New Mexico
Oregon
South Dakota
Texas
Washington

----------


## jajdude

No idea. They all have 2 or more vowels?

----------


## iamnobody

Yes they do, but that's not it.

----------


## prendrelemick

Have they all got a watery boundary.

----------


## billl

Only if you include rivers, Mick.
(at least there are OTHER states with pretty obvious water boundaries that aren't included in the list, so...)

Gun laws, politics, and order of statehood are also not yielding any obvious reasons for this grouping of states.

----------


## iamnobody

Hint: If you were looking at a list of all fifty states, it might be obvious.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Hint: If you were looking at a list of all fifty states, it might be obvious.


I am, and it's not.

----------


## billl

I did too. And I'm an American citizen.


EDIT (I'm looking at an alphabetical list, though. Is that right, or is it the wrong kind of list?)

----------


## iamnobody

> I did too. And I'm an American citizen.
> 
> 
> EDIT (I'm looking at an alphabetical list, though. Is that right, or is it the wrong kind of list?)


You're on the right track.
Hint2...It has nothing to do with geography.

----------


## Scheherazade

2.Alaska
3.Arizona
5.California
7.Connecticut
11.Hawaii
13.Illinois
17.Kentucky
19.Maine
23.Minnesota
29.New Hampshire
31.New Mexico
37.Oregon
41.South Dakota
43.Texas
47.Washington

They are the prime numbered states when alphabetically listed and numbered.

----------


## MarkBastable

.....wouldn't it be great if that weren't the right answer but just a coincidence?

----------


## iamnobody

> 2.Alaska
> 3.Arizona
> 5.California
> 7.Connecticut
> 11.Hawaii
> 13.Illinois
> 17.Kentucky
> 19.Maine
> 23.Minnesota
> ...


You got it! Your turn.

----------


## Scheherazade

> .....wouldn't it be great if that weren't the right answer but just a coincidence?


We all know there is no such thing as coincidence, Mark.

All right, here is the next one, which I tried to adopt from a Mensa puzzle. Hope it works.


Out of the seven PMs in my Inbox, Mark's is immediately before Papaya's. Bill's is between Mystry's and Mick's. Iamnobody's is immediately after Jajdude and there are two people between Iamnobody's and Mystry's. Mystry's is immediately after Papaya's. 


From the top of the list, what is the order of PMs?

----------


## jajdude

jaj 
Iam
Mark
Papaya
Mystry
Bill 
Mick

----------


## Scheherazade

Yes, that is the correct answer. Bill also PMed it to me on Friday so whoever would like to go next  :Smile: 

(I'm sorry that I did not reply sooner.)

----------


## jajdude

Go ahead billl, if ya got one.

----------


## billl

A blacksmith has six sections of chain, each with four links. If it takes him 20 seconds to open and close a link with his tools, what is the minimum amount of time he would need to make one length of chain out of these six sections?

----------


## MarkBastable

100 seconds? That can't be right - it's too straightforward.

----------


## billl

Yep, that's right. Too straight-forward. (That is, 100 seconds is not the correct answer.)

----------


## prendrelemick

80 seconds. he breaks up one of the sections to join the five others.

----------


## billl

That's it, Mick. (I'd seen this one in a couple books previously)

----------


## prendrelemick

Oh gawd!


Right, time to scrape the bottom of a really old barrel.


How can 4 be half of 5.

----------


## jajdude

Reckon it has nothing to do with Roman numerals?

----------


## billl

Nice work, jajdude. I toyed with Roman numerals for a couple seconds, but not long enough for it to hit me.

----------


## prendrelemick

An iron clad ivy league question this!

----------


## billl

I really wish I could do something with 150 A.D.

----------


## MarkBastable

Wait, wait, wait - where are we now? Jajude thinks he might know. Bill assumes jajude knows. Mick is giving clues that imply jajude's right. Bill's working on variations around the same theme. With all those clues, anyone with a few minutes could work it out, one assumes.

Can we just kill this one - someone give the answer, accept a smattering of applause - and move on?

----------


## prendrelemick

> I really wish I could do something with 150 A.D.




OK, forget the cladding.


Good grief Iv'e got the feeling Jajdude was being iron ic.

----------


## prendrelemick

[quote=

----------


## jajdude

So, four = IV and that's half of FIVE (haha, Fe for iron, just got that hint too)

ok

----------


## prendrelemick

Your turn jajdude.

----------


## jajdude

I've got one I found tough, required some playing with digits 0 to 9, though two of them are not used. Will need some paper for this one I reckon.

Replace each different letter with a different digit to make

SEND + MORE = MONEY

----------


## billl

Yeah, good one.

s=9
e=5
n=6
d=7
m=1
o=0
r=8
y=2

_9567
+1085
10653

I'm guessing there aren't any other solutions, but I didn't actually try it out for r=(something besides 8).

----------


## billl

OK, unless I was dumb enough to triple-check my solution to the previous one incorrectly three straight times, here's the next puzzle, which it is my responsibility to provide.


The Wogged Pursuit of Perfection

In a completely different bubble of the Multi-verse that we lovingly refer to as "M", there is another universe with a similar type of cosmology, ruled over (created, in fact) by a deity known as "Gow". (But he's always been "Pat" to his deity-type-friends.)

Anyhow, Pat was never much for surprises, variety, or anything like that, but he was VERY good at one thing, and that was taking care of business promptly. For Pat, creating an entire planet in a week was a little behind the pace--he managed to create whole planetary systems in that much time. When he finally settled down to business, this is how it went:

For his first solar system, he built one star (sun) with one planet that had one moon. The next week, he built another star (always just the one star per system), but this time he was able to give it two planets, each with one moon. In the next system he built, he put three planets around the star, each planet having its own boring ONE moon orbiting it. And Pat stuck to this formula, oh yes, rigidly, steadily producing solar systems that were gradually (and very predictably) larger than previous ones.

After one year (weeks and years are "Earth years" calculated via atomic clock, for the purposes of this puzzle) Pat stopped. How many planetary bodies (stars, planets, and moons) combined did he have after 52 weeks of building them?

----------


## prendrelemick

At the half way point on week twenty six he will make 1 sun 26 planets and 26 moons and that is his average output for the year. Thats 53 bodies times 52 weeks, which is 2756. However my maths prowess is legendary - For all the wrong reasons - so I've probably done it wrong.

----------


## billl

Yes, not quite right. You've shown all the necessary brilliance, and have made a nice presentation of the technique that makes it all so elegant, of course. Just a little bit off. (Lucky for me!)

----------


## jajdude

2756 + 52 stars ?

----------


## billl

Yep. (Add first week and last week, then multiply by 26.) Your turn again, jajdude.

----------


## jajdude

If mick likes, he can find one. I got nothing right now. Can do later with more time to spare.

----------


## jajdude

OK, a cryptogram:

HSI KZD JST HSCDNE SI NDTJE CH ZPP SZE KIOIPX EHTGGIV HSCDNCDA.

----------


## prendrelemick

> Yep. (Add first week and last week, then multiply by 26.) Your turn again, jajdude.




I mean - why does that work? How can you possibly know to do that?

----------


## MarkBastable

> I mean - why does that work? How can you possibly know to do that?


I don't know whether you're taking the mick, but in case you're not, imagine having to add the numbers from one to five. 



* ** *** **** *****

The middle one is the average of the others. Or, to put it another way, you could take two from the last one, and put it on the first one. And one from the fourth one and put it on the second one. You make them all the same because they 'balance' round the middle one.


*** *** *** *** ***

So the sum is the middle number (3) times the number of instances (5).


Same principle with the suns and planets. Figure out how many there are in the middle one and multiply by the number of instances.

----------


## billl

Except 52 is an even number of elements (with no 'middle' integer--26 is actually the last member of the first half), so one has to take the other (similar) route (summing the extremes and dividing by two to find the average).

----------


## Armel P

> I don't know whether you're taking the mick, but in case you're not, imagine having to add the numbers from one to five. 
> 
> 
> 
> * ** *** **** *****
> 
> The middle one is the average of the others. Or, to put it another way, you could take two from the last one, and put it on the first one. And one from the fourth one and put it on the second one. You make them all the same because they 'balance' round the middle one.
> 
> 
> ...


Of course, 26 would be the middle of 51, not 52.

----------


## Armel P

Oh. Beaten by billl.

----------


## jajdude

> I mean - why does that work? How can you possibly know to do that?


Once read a story about Gauss, a great mathematician. Teacher wanted to keep kids busy so he/she told them to add numbers 1 to 100. He solved it real fast. I believe he, at maybe 6 years old, took out 100 and the middle number 50. Then it's 99+1 + 98 + 2 + 97 +3 ... or 49 x 100. Or was it 101 x 50, what ever worked. This one had 1 + 2 + ... +52 , or 53 x 26 (twice) as you noted, but forgot to add the stars.

http://www.jimloy.com/algebra/gauss.htm

----------


## billl

> ok, a cryptogram:
> 
> Hsi kzd jst hscdne si ndtje ch zpp sze kioipx ehtggiv hscdncda.


zdtdxkr*h?

----------


## prendrelemick

Thanks for that everyone. I think I understand.- If you add the extremes and divide by two, that must be the average, provided it is a regular progression. But Billl being Billl, was able to jump a step and just times by 26 to get the answer.

----------


## billl

Whoops! Wow! Finally, a wrapping-up and an end to the avalanche of carelessness (dating back at least to the mix-up about the variable Y in jajdudes puzzle from days ago. 10652!).

EDIT: Correction, I wasn't as careless as I just thought about skipping the division, and multiplying by 26. I think...

----------


## billl

I have a whopper all loaded up, if you guys really want to deal with it. Definitely requires math, and pencil and paper. I'm taking my time, in case some people are yet to give the cryptogram a fair shot... But raise your objections now, if you must, and I'll try to come up with something else, because you might not like this next one...
 :Leaving: 




EDIT: I've attached the solution to jajdude's cryptogram.

----------


## billl

Five Barrels

Goran has been assigned the task of ordering a customized trailer for his company. His company makes really big barrels of something (he isn't sure what, he mostly just uses the internet at his desk), and each barrel is 5 feet in diameter. If the trailers can't be wider than 9 feet wide, what is the minimum length the trailer must be to completely accommodate 5 barrels. (The barrels cannot be stacked or lain on their side.)

----------


## jajdude

Good job bill, will look at your puzzle later. Bit drunk now.

 :Wave:

----------


## prendrelemick

There's a coincedence I spent yesterday stacking 5ft round bales into my shed.

----------


## billl

That might've made for a better set-up than "Some guy has to do something with barrels full of who knows what," but I'm guessing hay is stacked and stored on its side (if drives in the country are sufficient to reveal how that works.)

That sounds great, though, to be outside (and in a shed) dealing with hay. Grass is always greener, maybe, at least some days, but still, sounds nice. Actually, the grass would have lost its green-ness, in this case, and would most certainly be greener over at the other hypothetical spot... Another nice coincidence there, this time in my application of an idiom. Hmph.

Delivering lambs, though--I think I'd have to get pretty good at it before I stopped dreading that particular task.

----------


## prendrelemick

Its usually wet and cold Billl.

----------


## billl

Mick got the latest puzzle (The Five Barrels).

I've attached the solution that he PM'ed to me.

----------


## prendrelemick

Ok, enough of all this logic and maths. Its time for some intuition, a little knowledge and possibly a bit of wiki-ing.


A King fisher is flying over the countryside, when it sees a small pond. Next to the pond is a convenient stone cairn. It lands on the cairn and peers into the water. In the pond is a freshwater fish, that is unfortunetly too large for the bird to catch. My question is, how much stone was needed to build the cairn?

----------


## billl

Enough stone for the bird to spot a rock perch?

("Perch" has two meanings in this undoubtedly incorrect answer, with one of them being a species of freshwater fish, including something called a "rock perch" which is not actually a perch at all, but is instead a type of small bass.)

----------


## prendrelemick

Thanks billl, my first clue was going to be that the fish is a perch, and not a red herring. so you're in the right area.

----------


## billl

24.75 cubic feet of stone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perch_(unit)#Volume

----------


## prendrelemick

That is correct. The cairn was a perch, and a perch is just under 25 cubic feet of stone. It's not all that archaic either, a few years ago I did a walling job for a large estate and was paid by the perch.

----------


## billl

The dictionary on my computer mentioned it as a unit to measure length, but didn't have the volume definition so I ended up thinking along different lines. So close...

I'll try and come up with something soon, but anyone else with a good puzzle/problem is welcome to jump in...

----------


## billl

Ike The Ice Cream Man
Ike the ice cream man has a problem. A bunch of sorority girls just got off at the shuttle bus stop outside his shop, and they are about to come streaming inside his door. Ike can't resist these girls, they get anything they want from him, and he has foolishly left a 750ml bottle of Schnapps that he recently purchased sitting at the side of the counter, in plain view.

The girls love only one thing more than Schnapps, and that's ice cream, and so Ike starts scooping it into cups at the rate of one cup every 10 seconds (the same rate at which the girls are now entering his ice cream shop).

If it takes a girl 60 seconds to finish one cup of ice cream, and 30 seconds to pour and drink a 50ml shot of Schnapps, How long (from the moment he begins scooping) will it be before the sorority girls finish off Ike's Schnapps?

----------


## kasie

Can I ask, billl - do the girls pour their own schnapps or does Ike stop scooping ice-cream and pour it for them?

----------


## MarkBastable

Does he keep them supplied with endless cups of ice cream, or does he stop after one each?

----------


## billl

They pour their own Schnapps, and he supplies as much ice cream as he can (he's still scooping when the bottle's finished).

----------


## prendrelemick

I can't see a reason why it isn't 7.5 mins.

----------


## billl

I could have maybe done a better job explaining, the situation is this:

Girls are pouring in at a rate of 1 every 10 seconds, and Ike serves each one of them ice cream at the rate of one cup per 10 seconds (which each of the girls are able to finish in 60 seconds). Those who don't have ice cream will do shots of Schnapps, at a rate of 50ml per 30 seconds, and girls without any ice cream to enjoy will share the bottle. (But any girl with an opportunity to have a cup of ice cream will choose ice cream instead of the Schnapps.)

The girls remain in the shop, eating ice cream as quickly as Ike can serve it to them, and so he is busy with a store filled with sorority girls until the following Friday, when a bunch of mandatory keg parties happen.

----------


## MarkBastable

So he's okay for the first six girls, but when the seventh girl comes in, he has a problem, because the first girl has finished her ice cream, so he has two girls to give ice cream to, and only ten seconds before another girl's finished and an eighth arrives - and every ten seconds that pass, he has another girl he can't keep occupied with ice cream.

The seventh girl in does a shot of Schnapps in thirty seconds, by which time there are ample girls available to drink further Schnapps.

So from the moment he starts scooping it's 1 minute (while he's holding the first six girls off with ice cream) + 750/50*30secs = 

*8.5 minutes*

The only thing that seems odd to me is that you say it takes thirty seconds "to pour and drink a 50ml shot of Schnapps". I'd'a thought that the next one could be poured as the previous one was being drunk, so what we really care about is how long it takes to pour.

----------


## billl

> The only thing that seems odd to me is that you say it takes thirty seconds "to pour and drink a 50ml shot of Schnapps". I'd'a thought that the next one could be poured as the previous one was being drunk, so what we really care about is how long it takes to pour.


Yes, I had intended to convey the idea that more than one girl could (would) be working on the Schnapp's at the same time. Sorry, again, I'm afraid the correct answer requires a little more jumping through mathematical hoops. (I'll look over my notes again, but I don't think there ends up being a line of people waiting at the Schnapps bottle.)

EDIT: to clarify, more than one girl might be drinking Schnapps at the same time, and each of them would be separately progressing at a pace of 50ml per 30 seconds. There are, as it happens, no cases of more than one girl finishing their drinks at the same time and arguing over the next pour, however (but such a thing could happen in slightly different scenarios).

----------


## MarkBastable

> Yes, I had intended to convey the idea that more than one girl could (would) be working on the Schnapp's at the same time. Sorry, again, I'm afraid the correct answer requires a little more jumping through mathematical hoops. (I'll look over my notes again, but I don't think there ends up being a line of people waiting at the Schnapps bottle.)
> 
> EDIT: to clarify, more than one girl might be drinking Schnapps at the same time, and each of them would be separately progressing at a pace of 50ml per 30 seconds. There are, as it happens, no cases of more than one girl finishing their drinks at the same time and arguing over the next pour, however (but such a thing could happen in slightly different scenarios).


So I've obviously gone wrong somewhere, but this was the way it came out for me. 

Ike can keep six girls happy with ice cream.

At sixty seconds there'll be seven girls in the store, one of whom'll hit the Schnapps.

At seventy seconds there'll be eight girls in the store - six occupied with ice cream, one with the Schapps and one free. If the Schnapps is free too, she'll hit that - so it depends whether the 'pour' part of 'pour and drink' takes less than thirty seconds. If it takes ten, say, she can hit the Schnapps. If it takes thirty, she has to wait.

By ninety seconds there'll be ten girls in the store - six on ice cream, one starting the second Schnapps (if the thirty-second 'pour and drink' cycles can't overlap) or starting the fourth (if the 'pour' part takes, say, ten seconds), and three hanging about, waiting for some kind of gratification (or two of them could be drinking Schnapps they poured earlier).

But if it's not necessary to know how long the 'pour' bit is, this may be where I've gone wrong - because in my way of working it out, you only need seven girls in the store - six on ice cream (on the 10 and 60 cycle for serve and consume) and one on Schnapps (on the 30 cycle for drink and pour). Any more girls than that are just hanging about. It seems unlikely to me that bill would have set up the problem in this way if he only needed seven girls - so my logic might have gone awry somewhere around there.

----------


## billl

> So I've obviously gone wrong somewhere, but this was the way it came out for me. 
> 
> Ike can keep six girls happy with ice cream.
> 
> At sixty seconds there'll be seven girls in the store, one of whom'll hit the Schnapps.
> 
> At seventy seconds there'll be eight girls in the store - six occupied with ice cream, one with the Schapps and one free. If the Schnapps is free too, she'll hit that - so it depends whether the 'pour' part of 'pour and drink' takes less than thirty seconds. If it takes ten, say, she can hit the Schnapps. If it takes thirty, she has to wait.
> 
> By ninety seconds there'll be ten girls in the store - six on ice cream, one starting the second Schnapps (if the thirty-second 'pour and drink' cycles can't overlap) or starting the fourth (if the 'pour' part takes, say, ten seconds), and three hanging about, waiting for some kind of gratification (or two of them could be drinking Schnapps they poured earlier).
> ...


Yes, you're right--the problem assumes (but doesn't state) that the pouring time is inconsequential. Unfortunately for me, it turns out that my solution involves more than one girl pouring herself Schnapps at the same time on two occasions (during the 50 second period before the bottle is finally emptied).

Anyhow, a bit of a screw-up there, sorry--but you've really saved the day on this one, Mark. You've nailed the issues down perfectly well, and since the replies haven't been exactly pouring in like sorority girls at a late-night ice cream parlour, I'm going to post the solution here in an attachment.

----------


## jajdude

Too much ice cream and schnapps for me.

Got a good one, Mark?

----------


## MarkBastable

This one was lifted straight from the 'Net, so it's easy to cheat. I'm going to have only intermittent access to LitNet over the next couple of weeks, so if everyone gets sick of the question, you might all agree to Google it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------


Three men were standing in a row, all facing the same direction, so that there was one in back who could see the two in front of him, one in the middle who could see the guy at the front, and the one in front who could not see either of the other two. 

They were shown five hats - three blue and two red.

One hat was placed on each man, without them knowing which, or knowing which two were left over. 

First the man in the back was asked if he could deduce what color hat he had on.

"No, I can't," he said.

The man in the middle was asked the same question.

"Nope," he said.

Then man in the front was asked - and he knew what color hat he was wearing.

What was his answer, and why?

----------


## prendrelemick

I had a beautiful lucid moment just then and worked out it was blue. Trouble is, I can't remember why.

----------


## billl

> I had a beautiful lucid moment just then and worked out it was blue. Trouble is, I can't remember why.


How about this:

The back guy says no, so the guys in front of him can't BOTH be wearing red hats (that would mean only blue ones were left over, so he could deduce "blue").

So the second guy knows that at least one blue must be on either his head or the front guy's head (and maybe both are wearing blue...). If the person in front is wearing blue, then the middle guy can't be sure if he is wearing a blue hat himself--it could be blue OR red. However, if the guy in front of him is wearing a red hat, then he (the guy in the middle) CAN'T be wearing a red hat, because of the situation with the guy in the back (noted above, i.e. he couldn't have seen two red hats without knowing he was wearing blue).

Therefore, since the middle guy can't deduce anything, he must be seeing a blue hat on the front guy. So the front guy deduces that he is wearing a blue hat.

----------


## MarkBastable

Yep, good. Me and the family are off to NY and the Virgin Islands. Carry on.





> How about this:
> 
> The back guy says no, so the guys in front of him can't BOTH be wearing red hats (that would mean only blue ones were left over, so he could deduce "blue").
> 
> So the second guy knows that at least one blue must be on either his head or the front guy's head (and maybe both are wearing blue...). If the person in front is wearing blue, then the middle guy can't be sure if he is wearing a blue hat himself--it could be blue OR red. However, if the guy in front of him is wearing a red hat, then he (the guy in the middle) CAN'T be wearing a red hat, because of the situation with the guy in the back (noted above, i.e. he couldn't have seen two red hats without knowing he was wearing blue).
> 
> Therefore, since the middle guy can't deduce anything, he must be seeing a blue hat on the front guy. So the front guy deduces that he is wearing a blue hat.

----------


## billl

I would not be at all offended if someone else were to post a new one. (Actually, Mick got the correct answer... so he's equally on the hook.)

I will put something up eventually though, if nobody has thought of any other good ones by then.

----------


## prendrelemick

How about if Mark leaves Heathrow at 06.00 oclock and lands in New York at 08.00. How long is he in the air?

----------


## MarkBastable

> How about if Mark leaves Heathrow at 06.00 oclock and lands in New York at 08.00. How long is he in the air?


It depends how many people under five you're travelling with. A few years back, when Nell and Grace were four and two respectively, I seem to remember being on a flight for several days.

----------


## MarkBastable

Also taken from the Net, and a variation on the previous one...

Three women - one of whom we'll call Intelligentsia, because she has a talent for logic problems, and is therefore an absolute blast at extended wine-bar lunches - are sitting in a circle. They are blindfolded and told that a spot of either red or white will be put on each of their foreheads.

A red spot is then put on each of their foreheads. 

The blindfolds are removed and they are told to raise their hand if they can see any red spots. All three raise their hands.

They are told to lower their hands if they know what colour spot they have on their own forehead.

Intelligentsia ponders for a moment, and then lowers her hand.

What has she figured out that the other two haven't?

----------


## billl

uh, uh..

----------


## prendrelemick

All those wine bar lunches paid off, she can smell the Pinot Noir on her forehead.

----------


## MarkBastable

Because precision of language is so important in these things, I've edited the problem slightly.


...just as a clue - the other two women are pretty bright too. But not as bright as Intelligentsia.

----------


## billl

Oh, one of the others has a white spot on their head. So the OTHER (3rd) woman must've seen a red spot on Intelligentsia's head.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Oh, one of the others has a white spot on their head. So the OTHER (3rd) woman must've seen a red spot on Intelligentsia's head.


No, they all have red spots.

----------


## billl

It has something to do with the plural "spots"?

----------


## billl

> How about if Mark leaves Heathrow at 06.00 oclock and lands in New York at 08.00. How long is he in the air?


Seven hours?

----------


## MarkBastable

> It has something to do with the plural "spots"?


Nope - there's nothing tricksy about it. The problem is just as it appears.

----------


## billl

But if Intelligentsia can see a red spot on each of the other women's heads, then it doesn't matter if she has a red or white spot--the other women would each see (at least the one) red dot. How could she be sure she didn't have a white dot?

Is it because the others would've known that THEY would both have a red dot if she had a white dot and didn't announce that she was sure that she had a red dot? And so the pause means no one can be sure, which means: three red dots...?

I see, then! So all three are smart enough to figure it out, if the given the visible dots are sufficient--but she is the first to figure out that she can, on account of their uncertainty, figure it out even when the visible dots had left some ambiguity...

----------


## MarkBastable

If the others are logical, Intelligentsia can be completely certain she has a red spot - unambiguously.

But you're damn close (in fact, you might be right, but I'm not certain about the phrasing).








> But if Intelligentsia can see a red spot on each of the other women's heads, then it doesn't matter if she has a red or white spot--the other women would each see (at least the one) red dot. How could she be sure she didn't have a white dot?
> 
> Is it because the others would've known that THEY would both have a red dot if she had a white dot and didn't announce that she was sure that she had a red dot? And so the pause means no one can be sure, which means: three red dots...?
> 
> I see, then! So all three are smart enough to figure it out, if the given the visible dots are sufficient--but she is the first to figure out that she can, on account of their uncertainty, figure it out even when the visible dots had left some ambiguity...

----------


## prendrelemick

> Seven hours?




Is it? Crikey!

----------


## prendrelemick

OK, this is work in progress

If Intelligensia had a white dot, then the other two would know they had red dots, because all three had seen a red dot. (so at least two dots had to be red) As they didn't know, Intellegensia's had to be red. 

Does that make sense?

----------


## billl

Actually, I just re-read what I wrote late last night, and it is really, really a mess. In particular, Intelligentsia's hypothetical behavior in the middle portion makes no sense. And near the end, where I say "ambiguous", I was just trying to convey the "As they didn't know" phrase that Mick uses in his solution.

----------


## jajdude

Can we go back to sheep and farmers? At least I got that one.

----------


## billl

I still think my answer in post 728 has something to it: Intelligentsia would have raised her hand (immediately) if she had seen that the other women had one white and one red dot between them. Since the woman with a red dot had acknowledged seeing red, that would mean that Intelligentsia would have to have a red dot as well.

The thing that threw me off was my misreading of the problem. It specifically states that all three have red dots. (I'm wondering if there might be a series of "Dotted Head" puzzles, with slight variations like this...)

----------


## billl

> Can we go back to sheep and farmers? At least I got that one.


I think we are all free to come up with one now, but I might take a day or two, unless I luckily stumble upon one quickly. I will keep your preference in mind, though.

----------


## prendrelemick

> I still think my answer in post 728 has something to it: Intelligentsia would have raised her hand (immediately) if she had seen that the other women had one white and one red dot between them. Since the woman with a red dot had acknowledged seeing red, that would mean that Intelligentsia would have to have a red dot as well.
> 
> The thing that threw me off was my misreading of the problem. It specifically states that all three have red dots. (I'm wondering if there might be a series of "Dotted Head" puzzles, with slight variations like this...)



But then they would all know what dot they had - I think.

----------


## billl

> But then they would all know what dot they had - I think.


Good point (I love this kind of puzzle). Still, Intelligentsia would get the win (first lowered hand?) because of her noted mental superiority.

(I think the one woman with a white dot wouldn't know *at first*, but the other red dot woman would know, same as Intelligentsia. Of course, after judging both of the red dot women's reactions, I guess the white-dotted woman could deduce her own white dot, much the same as Intelligentsia deduces her red dot in the original puzzle based on the reaction of the others... That's the interesting twist with some of these angles--it depends on judging the reactions of the others).

----------


## prendrelemick

Ok, time for a quickie.


I remember an interview given by Muhammud Ali before the "Rumble in the Jungle" fight. He said something along the lines of :- "Why I'm so fast, when I turn out the light by the bedroom door, I can be across the room and into bed before it goes dark." Typical Ali boastfull humour I thought. But then I realized he could actually do it.
How.

----------


## MarkBastable

Luminous wallpaper.


Or, with a big fight scheduled for the following day, he gets a really early night.

----------


## prendrelemick

Yes, one of those answers is right. :Smilewinkgrin: 


For jajdude...

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/wmg/Sheep.html

----------


## jajdude

> Yes, one of those answers is right.
> 
> 
> For jajdude...
> 
> http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/wmg/Sheep.html


baad joke

----------


## MarkBastable

12-26-21-15 29-18-25-26-15  15-26-14-19-17-25-26 16-19-36-23-13-14 12-18-36-23-19-12 _-_-_-_-_-_?

----------


## prendrelemick

35-14-13-21-28-22

----------


## Delta40

> Ok, time for a quickie.
> 
> 
> I remember an interview given by Muhammud Ali before the "Rumble in the Jungle" fight. He said something along the lines of :- "Why I'm so fast, when I turn out the light by the bedroom door, I can be across the room and into bed before it goes dark." Typical Ali boastfull humour I thought. But then I realized he could actually do it.
> How.


He goes to bed before the sun goes down.

----------


## MarkBastable

> 35-14-13-21-28-22


I thought that would take longer. Have we used that code before?

----------


## prendrelemick

> I thought that would take longer. Have we used that code before?


No, It's a beaut though.

----------


## prendrelemick

> He goes to bed before the sun goes down.



That's correct too. Have you a puzzle to post Delta? If so, please go ahead.

----------


## MarkBastable

> No, It's a beaut though.


Yeah, I was quite pleased with it, which is why I was a bit miffed you got it so quickly.I thought maybe it was less original than I imagined.

----------


## Delta40

How can you throw a ball as hard as you can and have it come back to you, even if it doesn't bounce off anything? There is nothing attached to it, and no one else catches or throws it back to you.

----------


## MarkBastable

> How can you throw a ball as hard as you can and have it come back to you, even if it doesn't bounce off anything? There is nothing attached to it, and no one else catches or throws it back to you.


Do it in such a way that it's, practically, in orbit. So, for instance, from quite high up on Earth. Or on a small planet with enough gravitational pull to stop the ball flying off into space, but not quite enough to bring it to the ground.

----------


## billl

Or throw it straight up, but (and this is crucial) *not* hard enough to attain orbit.

----------


## prendrelemick

Or hurl it close enough to a small planet for a gravitational slingshot effect to bring it back.

or throw a beach all into a stiff easterly wind on Skegness Beach. ( it works I've done it too often.)

----------


## billl

Or toss it into the water upstream as hard as you wish, while standing, immersed, in one of those amusement park flume rides.

----------


## prendrelemick

Or in a Tom and Jerry moment, it enters a hole in a tree, dissappears for a bit, then comes out of a lower hole, (preceeded by an angry squirrel) rolls along a branch, into some roof guttering, along the roof guttering, down a down spout, across the lawn and comes to rest at your feet.

It could happen you know.

----------


## MarkBastable

I like the one with the squirrel.

----------


## prendrelemick

I think we may consider the ball question thoroughly answered.


53-32-81 74-53-43-71 81-42-32 31-63-41-74 63-33 _ _ _.

----------


## prendrelemick

clue.

A few days ago mark posted a puzzle where he'd substituted each letter with its co-ordinates on a qwerty keyboard. 

This is an unashamed rip-off of that idea.

----------


## billl

I'm getting to it! Patience!

----------


## prendrelemick

Sorry billl, and don't call me Patience!

----------


## billl

Seriously, I am intrigued but haven't had much time, nor had I made any headway (beyond constructing some incorrect number ciphers)--I definitely needed that clue. Prendrelmick!

----------


## kasie

.....91-21-73

63-42 31-32-21-73, 81-42-21-62-74 43 42-21-81-31 81-61 81-41-43-62-51 63-33 21-62-63-81-41-32-73 71-82-94-94-3-32, 31-63-32-74-62-'81 43-81?

I think Patience is rather a good name for someone involved in lambing.

----------


## prendrelemick

93,82,71.

Now try that with predictive text on!

----------


## jajdude

What's going on? Anyone?

----------


## prendrelemick

53-32-81 74-53-43-71 81-42-32 31-63-41-74 63-33 _ _ _. 



OK, the code was co-ordinates from a mobile phone key pad - which I later realized is the same as texting really. So for "A" you press the number 2 key once, so it's 21, Then for "B" its 22, and so on up to Z which is 94.

Pretty fiendish, I thought.




I've just thought, I hope phone keypads are the same the world over!

----------


## kasie

63-52....I mean, OK, here goes:

Take Charlie and add his brother Jim; next add Jim's lass, Mary, and then her old man, Will, who was a colourful sort of chap. Don't forget her sister, Nancy, though technically speaking, she will not add anything to your total. Now add cousin George plus his boy, George, also his son who was unimaginatively named after Grandpa - they were around for an age. Add in his eldest son as well, likewise named after Grandpa: he liked to Be Beside the Seaside and was around for a nominal age as well though he's remembered more for his role. Then add his brother, Bill, who really did run away to sea for a while.

You should be up to 23 so far.

You can't forget their niece - she was around for an age after all - though like Cousin Nan she won't add anything to your total. Add her son, Ted, then his son who was named after his grandma's grandpa but changed the family name. Now add his son who was named after his grandpa though Mum and Dad called him Davie at home which was quite appropriate really - he didn't stay around for long but he has added the highest number yet to your score. Add his brother who was named after Dad but was known as Bert at home to avoid confusion. Add his girl, Betty - and that's as far as you can go for now. 

What's your total? You should have a prime number as an answer but that's a coincidence.

----------


## MarkBastable

.....51

----------


## kasie

Correct. Your turn.

----------


## prendrelemick

blummin' eck, I was no where near.

----------


## MarkBastable

(This might be absurdly easy to an American - in which case I apologise.)

Recently it's been Illinois, Massachusetts, Arkansas and Connecticut.

Any debate aside, what would Wikipedia say it is now?

----------


## jajdude

Not American, but anything to do with presidents?

----------


## MarkBastable

That's not an answer, dude. That's a question.

----------


## Calidore

Which is a different game. :-)

----------


## prendrelemick

Hang on a minute, 51, why?

----------


## MarkBastable

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...chs_of_England


Add up the ordinals, from the Restoration onwards. (Charlie, as the question has it.)

----------


## kasie

Thanks, Mark - you're right. I thought it might be an apropos question for Royal Wedding Week! I was going to go back to 1066 but thought that might be pushing it a bit (and I can't remember quite how all the Edwards and Henrys fit in the middle.)

----------


## prendrelemick

> (This might be absurdly easy to an American - in which case I apologise.)
> 
> Recently it's been Illinois, Massachusetts, Arkansas and Connecticut.
> 
> Any debate aside, what would Wikipedia say it is now?



They are the states that provided America with it's last 4 presidents, as jajdude knew. But not sure about the last bit.

perhaps Ireland? That seems to be where every president claims his roots are.

----------


## prendrelemick

Hawaii.

----------


## MarkBastable

....Yep.

----------


## prendrelemick

Here is a genuine logistical scenario from my other life as an Erector of Fences. This happened a few days ago

Me and Ade were at a livery yard.

We had 100m of post and rail fence to do, all the supplies were tipped at one end of the fence line, and because of the poor access we had to carry them out by hand.

The rails are 3.6m long and so required a post every 1.8m. It was to be a 3 rail fence, so the rails were to be laid out in piles of three, each pile touching end to end with the next pile. Along side each pile there were to be two posts, as the posts are 1.8 long this means the posts are also laid end to end .

Me and Ade are both farmers with dodgy knees and can only manage to carry either three rails or two posts at a time, we can also only manage to travel at 1m per second ,including picking up and putting down.

Now in the cut-throat world of Fence Erecting time is money, so Ade went to get help and I began to carry the stuff out. I'd done 10 trips when he arrived back with Richard and they began to help . Richard, the yard owner, is an ex-rugby league player with dodgy knees and could only travel at our pace, BUT he decided he could carry 3 posts each trip. He did this for 6 trips then sat down on the grass and watched me and Ade do the rest.


How long did it take us? Please show workings out, as I haven't done it yet either.

Assume the first trip was 3.6 metres. Remember this is a real life situation, so the numbers may not be exact, but there needs to be enough rails and posts to complete 100 metres of fence.

----------


## Calidore

Hmmm. If you bill for time, and we're working out the time for you, it seems to me a large consultancy fee is in order.

----------


## prendrelemick

Oh law, I've been rumbled.

----------


## prendrelemick

Before I find myself in the embarrassing situation of answering my own question wrongly (billl,where are you?) I now realize there is not enough infomation above to answer it, as you need to know exactly which posts Richard took out.

So assume that while Richard was helping, me and Ade carried out rails only.

----------


## billl

I'm working on it now, under the assumption that Richard laid out the posts for the sections of fence that would be nearest to the pile of supplies. Let me know if we want him to do the most distant piles, though.

ALSO (obviously, just nit-picking), it is assumed that this is a straight fence (no short-cuts to distant sections).

ALSO, I am assuming that the first pile of three rails (and the first three posts) are a distance of 0m from the supply pile, and therefore take "no time", even though picking up/putting down/and arranging end-to-end are all part of the process. However long this would take (something less than 3.6 seconds...) can of course be added to my final answer to the puzzle. This assumption allows me to (ideally, though not realistically) consider the second section as being simply 3.6m from the supplies, with no need for information about the distance of the supplies from the fence, or how that distance increases as the supplies dwindle.

EDIT: I decided it would be simpler (mathematically) to have the first THREE posts be at a distance of zero from the pile of supplies.

----------


## billl

I've got 41.94 minutes (41 minutes, 56 seconds).

I'll type up the work pretty soon here...

----------


## MarkBastable

Yeah. For sure. 41.94 minutes. That's what I got too. 41.94 minutes.

----------


## billl

Um, some points regarding what it takes to lay the first section of rails out has altered my result. (I'll be done soon, just keeping you posted.)

----------


## billl

NUMBER OF "SECTIONS" OF FENCE = 28
TOTAL LENGTH OF FENCE= 100.8m (3.6m x 28)

As explained in the puzzle, each section will have 3 rails of fence, and two posts. Note, the first section will actually have a third post (the 'end' post), and I will assume that this post can simply be left where it is in the pile of supplies at the beginning of the fence, and doesn't have to be carried anywhere.

*RAILS*
Note that I'm not worrying about the unmentioned (and apparently minimal, but *realistically* increasing as supplies are used up) distance of the supplies from the beginning of the fencing.

First, let's see how much distance must be covered to lay out all of the rails from end to end. Each section needs one "round trip" by a worker--even the first section, which just needs to be "arranged" at a distance of "zero" from the pile of supplies will need the worker to carry the far end of the rails the full 3.6 meters. So the first section is a round trip of 7.2 meters.

The Second Section would thus be 7.2m from the supplies (round trip of 14.4m), the Third Section would be 10.8m away (21.6m round trip), etc.
The furthest section needing a pile of rails would be the 28th Section, at a distance of 100.8m (round trip = 201.6m).

7.2m = Shortest Trip
201.6m = Longest Trip
Average Trip = (Shortest + Longest) divided by 2 = 104.4m
Total Ground Covered By Workers Carrying Rails = 104.4m x 28 round trips = 2923.2m

*POSTS*
Well, while Mick and Ade are working on the fencing, Richard gives them a head start on the posts by doing the first 9 sections (that's his 18 posts, plus the first one that's just lying at the beginning, with the supplies). When we realize that he gets work done faster than Mick or Ade, AND we assume that, what with his knee problems and everything, he only bothers helping with the nearest sections, it is safe to assume that Mick and Ade are still quite busy on the rails by the time Richard's contribution is complete. So we don't need to figure out how long it takes Richard to finish his part of the job (Although it is pretty interesting, not at all straight-forward, and *might *make a good puzzle). All we need to realize is that he has given the other two guys a head start on the posts, once they finish with the rails.

*MICK AND ADE CARRYING POSTS
*After Richard's head start, Mick and Ade still need to do the bulk of the post-carrying. Sections 10-28 remain to be done.

(3.6 x 10) x 2 = 72 = Shortest Trip (remember, these are "Round Trips", so we multiply distance by 2)
(3.6 x 28) x 2 = 201.6 = Longest Trip
Average Trip = 273.6 (Shortest + Longest) divided by 2 = 136.8m
Total Ground Covered By Mick and Ade Carrying Posts = 136.8m x 19 (sections) = 2599.2m

At this point, we could simply add the distances covered by Mick and Ade carrying the posts and rails, divide by two (because they are working simultaneously), and the result would be the number of seconds they spent doing the work. HOWEVER, Mick did the first 10 sections of rails on his own, and so we need to find the amount of time spent on that (and subtract THAT distance from the time that they were working on the rails *together*). I'm going to assume that Mick did the nearest sections first--but this assumption has a BIG affect on the final results... If he had done the 10 most distant sections first, that would've meant that Ade was off looking for Richard for a much, much longer time.

*JUST MICK ON THE RAILS
*Section 1 (round trip = 7.2m) to Section 10 (round trip = 72m).
Average Trip = 79.2m divided by 2 = 39.6m
Total Ground Covered By Just Mick Carrying The First 10 Sections Of Rails = 39.6m x 10 trips = 396m

*SO*
The total time spent while Ade was off looking for help = 396 seconds.
At the 396-seconds mark, Richard joins in (chipping away at the scope of Mick and Ade's task) and Ade and Mick begin to work together.

TOTAL DISTANCE COVERED BY MICK ALONE *AND* MICK AND ADE = Rail trips ground covered + "post Richard" Posts ground covered
TOTAL DISTANCE COVERED BY MICK ALONE *AND* MICK AND ADE = 2923.2m + 2599.2m = 5522.4m

5522.4m is the distance that needs to be covered, after Richard's head-start on the posts is taken into account.

*TIME*
TIME = (MICK ALONE) divided by 1m/sec + (MICK AND ADE WORKING TOGETHER) divided by 2m/sec
note that Mick and Ade working together cut the time in half...
TIME = (396)/1 + (5522.4-396)/2
note that Mick's early work is subtracted from the total work done, in order to find the amount done by them working together.
TIME = 396 + 2563.2 = 2959.2 seconds

Total time = 49.32 minutes = 49 minutes, 19.2 seconds.

Again, I assumed that Richard and Mick began the rails and posts by doing the nearest sections first.

Finally, I want to point out that, in all likelihood (unless I've been very lucky here) we would end up with either Mick or Ade standing around, arms folded, watching the other guy walking back from his job of carrying the final pair of posts to the most distant section (and my procedure here considers the walk back to be part of the job, but that's beside the point). Since that walk would take 108 seconds at the most, I have to say that my answer therefore has a 108 second margin of error--(because I'm not going to figure out the exact amount of time that one of them is left to work on the last bit by himself, I haven't even begun to think about how to do that...). It's worth noting that this margin of error would be cut down to a mere 3.6 seconds if Mick and Richard had begun the whole operation by starting on the most distant section first, but, as I mentioned earlier, we would've then ended up with a much longer time-frame for this job in such a case, and it frankly wouldn't bring me any sort of joy to run though the motions again and figure out the math on it. I mean, this was pretty fun (seriously!), but that's my best effort. Feel free to look it over--really, I think I have taken a reasonable stab at it, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were errors of even the most basic kind in this "solution"! I used a calculator app on my computer that required me to point and click on the numbers, for example.

----------


## jajdude

billl wins at life

----------


## billl

Well, thanks. Upon reflection, I think I'm possibly way off, in regards to the margin of error--one guy might begin the last section just as the guy doing the next to last is returning (I think), and that sort of situation could push the final guy's work to a 216 second trip. However, another thing I forgot to take into consideration is the fact that time spent with just the one guy working at the end is still *half* as efficient as when they are working together, which brings the margin for error back down to 108 seconds. Hmph... Oh, and the bit about how long it takes Richard to do his part isn't as tricky as I initially imagined, either.

Let's just say I've gotten it _right enough_, until someone else finds some other problem with it. In the meantime, that means I should be providing the next puzzle.

----------


## billl

A sheep herder has seven sheep: four white, two brown, and one black. How many of them can each say that they are the same color as another of the herder's sheep?

----------


## MarkBastable

> A sheep herder has seven sheep: four white, two brown, and one black. How many of them can each say that they are the same color as another of the herder's sheep?


None of them, unless they are remarkably talented sheep.

----------


## billl

That's right, I'll be back to my usual stuff next time.

----------


## prendrelemick

Thanks billl. 

My answer was almost the same, but I had made a few different assumptions.

Amazingly it took about that long in real life too. And well done for remembering that extra post at the end.

----------


## MarkBastable

Is it my turn?

----------


## Scheherazade

> Is it my turn?


That must be a trick question!

*takes out pen and paper*

----------


## billl

Yeah, Mark. I know what I did seems cheap.

----------


## kasie

> None of them, unless they are remarkably talented sheep.


OK, but maybe our friendly local sheep farmer can explain to me why all the white sheep in the flock in the field outside my kitchen window kept together and all the black sheep kept together. The white sheep chased the black lambs away but the black sheep didn't chase the white lambs away. Mind you, the black lambs (twins and a singleton) were pesky little fellows and kept fighting and the remaining white singleton (one died) liked joining in but ran off when things got a bit rough and head butting started. There was clearly communication of some sort going on there. Any comments about Welsh sheep will be regarded with extreme displeasure - you have been warned...(btw, I suspect there shouldn't have been any lambs there at all - it's usually a flock of barren ewes at that time of year.)

----------


## MarkBastable

<edited slightly since first posting>


There's a circular underground railway line (two lines, if you want to be pedantic) on which two trains travel - one going clockwise and one going counterclockwise, and they run twenty-four hours a day. The clockwise train takes take an hour and ten minutes to complete a circuit of the line, and the counterclockwise train, which is a bit decrepit and travels on the outer of the two parallel tracks, takes an hour and a half. There are four stations on the line, at the compass points - North Station, East Station, South Station and West Station.

I have not looked at the timetable, but I walk to the North Station wanting to go to South Station. As I step onto the platform, at which trains arrive on both sides, my phone rings. It's my friend at the South Station.

"To the nearest minute, how long is it going to take you to get here?" he asks.

Being a cautious person, I say, "Well, I plan to get the next train, so worst case..."

...What?

----------


## prendrelemick

> OK, but maybe our friendly local sheep farmer can explain to me why all the white sheep in the flock in the field outside my kitchen window kept together and all the black sheep kept together. The white sheep chased the black lambs away but the black sheep didn't chase the white lambs away. Mind you, the black lambs (twins and a singleton) were pesky little fellows and kept fighting and the remaining white singleton (one died) liked joining in but ran off when things got a bit rough and head butting started. There was clearly communication of some sort going on there. Any comments about Welsh sheep will be regarded with extreme displeasure - you have been warned...(btw, I suspect there shouldn't have been any lambs there at all - it's usually a flock of barren ewes at that time of year.)


The only thing I know about sheep is that they're very clever at being stupid.

----------


## prendrelemick

If you are very unlucky and have just missed both trains, 1 hr 45 mins.

----------


## MarkBastable

> If you are very unlucky and have just missed both trains, 1 hr 45 mins.


 ....Yep.

----------


## prendrelemick

can.yO.UF.inD.t.hEhi.DD.ENW.oRd.her.e

----------


## billl

could it be "den"?

----------


## prendrelemick

Morning billl.

Nope.

----------


## billl

Thank goodness. 

And good morning to you, too. Right now I'm using youtube to watch an episode of the 1969 TV show "UFO", because well that's what I ended up doing, trying to stay awake a bit longer on a boring Saturday night. Having to suddenly come up with a worthy puzzle would've shattered my morale.

----------


## prendrelemick

I do't want to dash anyone's hopes here, but its clue time.

----------


## MarkBastable

_drewfounded_

Not a common word, admittedly, but used at least once on the Web. Er..just then.

----------


## prendrelemick

A good woody sort of word, but wrong.

----------


## Calidore

"any"?

----------


## prendrelemick

No.
Ok there are two words really, but "words" wouldn't fit, because the number of letters is crucial.
Also, they're not really words, but a name.
Perhaps you could nibble on a morsel of cod as you think about this case.

----------


## prendrelemick

> can.yO.UF.inD.t.hEhi.DD.ENW.oRd.her.e



the sA ME naM e iSin TH ISS eNt enc e

----------


## MarkBastable

....now you're just making me feel stupid.

----------


## prendrelemick

I have part remorse about that STOP

----------


## Sano

Samuel Morse in morse code?

----------


## prendrelemick

> Samuel Morse in morse code?



Yesss! Upper case dashes, lower case dots.

Now for the bad news, you have to post the next puzzle.

----------


## billl

Ha, yes, I see.

----------


## Sano

Ok, this is pretty easy, but here it is:

I am what I am,
but if you know what I am,
I am not longer what I am.
Guess, what am I?

----------


## MarkBastable

A secret?

----------


## Sano

It could be, but it isn't the correct answer to this one. Try again.  :Smile:

----------


## togre

a wrong answer?

----------


## Sano

Nope. Tip: Mark's answer was closer to it than yours.  :Smile:

----------


## MarkBastable

I've never had much patience with riddles. They always seem so contrived to me. Contrived and quite often leaky as hell. I mean, look at the riddle of the Sphinx. Faced with that absurdly cobbled-together attempt at a puzzle, any traveller with a modicum of gumption would flip the Sphinx the finger and tell him - or possibly her - to spin on it, then gee up the camel and head for the first pub on Thebes High Street.

----------


## prendrelemick

> Ok, this is pretty easy, but here it is:
> 
> I am what I am,
> but if you know what I am,
> I am not longer what I am.
> Guess, what am I?




A puzzle ?

----------


## billl

Mystery?

----------


## prendrelemick

A mystery puzzle?

----------


## billl

A secret mystery puzzle?

----------


## MarkBastable

A stranger.

----------


## billl

A successful imposter.

----------


## Sano

> A puzzle ?


Yep, you got it.  :Smile:  Your turn now.

----------


## prendrelemick

Noooooo!


Give us a moment.

----------


## prendrelemick

seven is half of twelve in a certain situation. Explain.

----------


## Sano

twelve (6 letters) minus seven (5 letters) equals seven minus half (4 letters)? It does sound a bit crazy, but it's all I can think of at the moment.

----------


## MarkBastable

I have no clear way of drawing this but I'll give it a go...


\/ | |


is half of

\/ | |
/\ | |

----------


## prendrelemick

sano, brilliant but wrong!

Mark, correct! I've used the Roman Numeral route once too often me thinks.

----------


## MarkBastable

Here's one that forms a snippet of backstory in a fiction piece of mine.....


The second-born of a pair of twins is older than the first-born, having been born in a different country and a different year.

----------


## togre

On a plane at an airport in Vladivostok, Russia, a woman goes into labor. While the plane is taxiing down the runway, her first child is born at 9:00am, January 1st, 2009. The plane flies to Anchorage, Alaska, USA. The flight takes 1 hour, but crosses the International Date Line and therefore touches down at 11:00 am, December 31st, 2008. The woman gives birth to her second child--born after the first, but on in a different, earlier year.

----------


## prendrelemick

^ Sounds right to me.

----------


## billl

Yeah, togre, if you can think of a new puzzle, that would be great! It is your right!

(And, unfortunately, your responsibility. Of course, after this much time, you can allow yourself to be considered "shamefully unconcerned" with that responsibility, and then ANYONE might choose to do the next puzzle! Or you can just say that you were waiting for Mark's verification, and quickly post the next puzzle.)

----------


## togre

Bob is 6 feet tall, works as a butcher's assistant and has size 11 shoes. What does Bob weigh?

----------


## MarkBastable

Sorry. Been distracted. Yes. More later.

----------


## prendrelemick

Meat.

----------


## togre

Yep, prendrelemick!  :Party: 

Now its your turn.

----------


## prendrelemick

My age is 26 plus half my age, what's my age?

----------


## togre

52?  :Shocked:

----------


## MarkBastable

If it's not, I'm looking forward to finding out why.

----------


## prendrelemick

Course it is!




note to self : Must try harder.

----------


## prendrelemick

> I've never had much patience with riddles. They always seem so contrived to me. Contrived and quite often leaky as hell. I mean, look at the riddle of the Sphinx. Faced with that absurdly cobbled-together attempt at a puzzle, any traveller with a modicum of gumption would flip the Sphinx the finger and tell him - or possibly her - to spin on it, then gee up the camel and head for the first pub on Thebes High Street.




They didn't have camels, they rode around on Theban cycles.

----------


## MarkBastable

On the twin thing, togre was right on the money. 

This is how it's explained in the draft of the novel. Every time I read it I drive myself slightly nuts trying to work out whether I've got the direction right.

-----------------------------------------------


Tell me about your twin brother, Alice said during the next session.

Whats the relevance of that?

Maybe none. I dont know.

I sighed. Okay  heres the quirky thing about me. I was born in a different year and a different country to my twin.

Alice gave the quizzical look Ive come to expect when I trot out that freakish fact. How so? 

I was born at two oclock in the morning, January 1st, 1963, in the Solomon Islands. In the airport, in fact. I was two weeks early and I had decided to come into the world just as a spectacular typhoon was about to hit. I picked up my bottle of mineral water from which I took a swig. My father, God knows how, persuaded an American airforce plane to take my mother and I  still bloody and blue  on board. No one had any idea that the birth wasnt over. The plane flew east and was forced down in Samoa, where my brother Pablo was born. 

Amazing, Alice nodded.

But the plane had crossed the international dateline into the previous day. So Pablo was born on 31st December, 1962  after me, but the day before me.

Alice clapped her hands, laughing. Oh, I love that.

It breaks the ice at parties, I admitted.

----------


## prendrelemick

I knew a boy who was born on a flight over the arctic.. Suppose he was born exactly while above the pole, Is there a time there?

----------


## MarkBastable

I've just noticed something in my extract that leaves me clammy with mortification.

----------


## togre

Ok, it's me again? Decipher the following message:

YYURYYUBICURYY4ME

----------


## prendrelemick

Too wise you are
Too wise you be
I see you are too wise for me.

Good one togre.

While I think of something, can we try and guess what mortified Mark?

----------


## togre

> Too wise you are
> Too wise you be
> I see you are too wise for me.
> 
> Good one togre.


Right on. That's one my father taught me years ago.





> Too wise you are
> While I think of something, can we try and guess what mortified Mark?


From his tone I assume it's some unforgivable proof reading error or using "your" instead of "you're" but I looked for a couple of minutes and couldn't find anything scandalous.

----------


## togre

> the international dateline



Could it be "International Date Line" is the clammy-causing calamity? If so, that's a pretty acute conscience to be pricked so sharply by such a slip.

----------


## prendrelemick

> I picked up my bottle of mineral water from which I took a swig.





A trifle inelegant perhaps?

----------


## MarkBastable

> A trifle inelegant perhaps?


Funny you should say that. I edited that sentence on the fly as I pasted the passage in, and didn't really read it back to myself. So, yeah - I'll do something about that.

But that's not it. And it's not the lack of capitalisation on _International Date Line_, either, though I'da got that at final edit, I think.

----------


## billl

my mother and ME!

----------


## MarkBastable

> my mother and ME!


Yeah, that's it. 

It's a good example of one of the dilemmas of writing in the first person, actually. The narrator is exactly the sort of person who would make that over-compensatory error, so it's true to his voice. On the other hand, I'm exactly the sort of person who might make the error in speech but would correct himself immediately. So to leave the error in would require me to have a lot of confidence in both myself and in the reader's trust in me as the writer of a narrative voice.

I ought to leave it there, really, and learn to live with the cringe.

----------


## prendrelemick

I noticed that, but thought it was ok as mother and narrator were the subject of the sentence. However, in 1970s comprehensives we didn't do grammer - or spelling.

----------


## prendrelemick

I,ve done another rhyming slang one.

To remind you how it works, a word is substituted by the first word of a common phrase. The last word of that phrase rhymes with the substituted word.

For example "Car" can be substituted by "Jam" because "Jam Jar" rhymes with car. 




I've no chocolate and it gives me quiche to admit it, I was a pig's in my chicken life. I was a cup, living in a cottage, my life was a parma.

Harsh cucumber? Perhaps, but I need to rogan this chow away and turn over a new roast. It would be ground to be able to change your life as easily as a kiwi and apple and start a new parsley.

----------


## MarkBastable

So far....

I've no chocolate and it gives me quiche lorraine (pain) to admit it. I was a pig's trotter (rotter) in my chicken korma (former) life. I was a cup, living in a cottage, my life was a parma ham (sham).

Harsh cucumber? Perhaps, but I need to rogan josh (wash) this chow mein (stain) away and turn over a new roast beef (leaf). It would be ground meat (neat) to be able to change your life as easily as a kiwi fruit (suit) and apple pie (tie) and start a new parsley.

----------


## prendrelemick

Mostly right so far.

----------


## prendrelemick

This question is about as popular as a *********** in a **** tub.

----------


## billl

No, we're just going through a phase, I think. It's pretty challenging coming up with new ones--I've developed a fear of posting correct answers (it'd be rude! to make people wait for me to provide a good one in order to keep things going), and so I sometimes just figure someone else will get one, and I'll get back in the game once I've got something in pocket that I can deploy upon a successful solution to the latest offering.

Something like that--I will get back to this one (thanks for bumping--I had actually forgotten that there was a new one in play, sometimes we just sit for a while waiting for the next one...) hopefully this weekend. I think I had actually come up with something for "chocolate" but can't remember it at the moment...

----------


## billl

> So far....
> 
> I've no chocolate and it gives me quiche lorraine (pain) to admit it. I was a pig's trotter (rotter) in my chicken korma (former) life. I was a cup, living in a cottage, my life was a parma ham (sham).
> 
> Harsh cucumber? Perhaps, but I need to rogan josh (wash) this chow mein (stain) away and turn over a new roast beef (leaf). It would be ground meat (neat) to be able to change your life as easily as a kiwi fruit (suit) and apple pie (tie) and start a new parsley.


A possible bit of progress...
==============================================
I've no chocolate scones (stones) and it gives me quiche lorraine (pain) to admit it. I was a pig's trotter (rotter) in my chicken korma (former) life. I was a cup, living in a cottage pie (sty), my life was a parma ham (sham).

Harsh cucumber? Perhaps, but I need to rogan josh (wash) this chow mein (stain) away and turn over a new roast beef (leaf). It would be ground meat (neat) to be able to change your life as easily as a kiwi fruit (suit) and apple pie (tie) and start a new parsley.

----------


## prendrelemick

Time for some breaking news (clues) for the phrases


Chocolate: a light fluffy pudding or an elk.
Cucumber: you often cut corners to make this, and the edges as well.
Ground: Tarzan author had this for his middle course.
Parsley: A wise herb.
Cup: In my day, a bun

Cottage pie is right, but not sty.

----------


## MarkBastable

Chocolate: a light fluffy pudding or an elk 
chocolate mousse. Er, use? If so, it's a specifically North-of-Derby construction. Where I come from it'd be 'am' rather then 'have'. So I'm not convinced I've got the rhyme right.

Cucumber: you often cut corners to make this, and the edges as well. 
cucumber sandwich - langwidge.


Ground: Tarzan author had this for his middle course.
Rice? So, nice? I'da got this a lot quicker if a) I'd ever heard of ground rice and b) I hadn't convinced myself that _Tarzan_ was written by H. Rider Haggard.


Parsley: A wise herb. 
parsley and sage - age


Cup: In my day, a bun. 
Cupcake - fake.

Cottage pie is right, but not sty. 
If it weren't for that 'in' I'd say it was lie.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

> Ground: Tarzan author had this for his middle course.
> Rice? So, nice? I'da got this a lot quicker if a) I'd ever heard of ground rice and b) I hadn't convinced myself that _Tarzan_ was written by H. Rider Haggard


Best laugh all week!

----------


## prendrelemick

Just to let you know I sweated and cogitated about that inapropriate "in" but left it there anyway, for the sake of the cottage imagery. 

Didn't you have school dinners? Ground rice pudding with a blob of something jam-like in the middle.

Otherwise, you're half way there with "use." and threequarters there with "age."

----------


## MarkBastable

> Just to let you know I sweated and cogitated about that inapropriate "in" but left it there anyway, for the sake of the cottage imagery. 
> 
> Didn't you have school dinners? Ground rice pudding with a blob of something jam-like in the middle.
> 
> Otherwise, you're half way there with "use." and threequarters there with "age."



Typo - meant 'page'

----------


## MarkBastable

Oh - excuse.

----------


## MarkBastable

Phrases, idioms and sayings containing 'and'. (I mean, not any old 'and'. Phrases where the 'andness' is intrinsic to the meaning and usage.)


1. PSR&T

2. SC&P

3. HL&S

4. YF&S

5. S&D&R&R

6. AME&BM

7. LS&B

8. RH&PAW 

9. FH&C

10. AM&NT

11. OSOP&OH

12. F&FF

13. YG&B

14. B&PF

15. AA&AL

16. C"GFHE&SG!"

17. TH&B

18. GS&M

19. HSK&T,K&T

20. OTH&FA

----------


## prendrelemick

MarkBastable;1038754]Phrases, idioms and sayings containing 'and'. (I mean, not any old 'and'. Phrases where the 'andness' is intrinsic to the meaning and usage.)


1. PSR&T parsley sage rosmary and thyme

2. SC&P snap crackle and pop

3. HL&S

4. YF&S young free and single

5. S&D&R&R

6. AME&BM

7. LS&B lock stock and barrel

8. RH&PAW 

9. FH&C

10. AM&NT

11. OSOP&OH

12. F&FF

13. YG&B young gifted and black

14. B&PF

15. AA&AL

16. C"GFHE&SG!"

17. TH&B

18. GS&M

19. HSK&T,K&Thead shoulders knees and toes, knees and toes.

20. OTH&FA[/QUOTE]

----------


## kasie

> MarkBastable;1038754]Phrases, idioms and sayings containing 'and'. (I mean, not any old 'and'. Phrases where the 'andness' is intrinsic to the meaning and usage.)
> 
> 
> 1. PSR&T parsley sage rosmary and thyme
> 
> 2. SC&P snap crackle and pop
> 
> 3. HL&S Hook, Line and sinker
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

Not sure about No 8?

----------


## MarkBastable

Brilliant.

But 8 is not the one I had in mind. In fact, I'd argue that 'awhile' is one word. It's debatable, admittedly.

I thought 5 would be the easiest of the lot.

----------


## billl

5. Sex & Drugs & Rock & Roll

10. All Music & No Talk

----------


## MarkBastable

> 5. Sex & Drugs & Rock & Roll
> 
> 10. All Music & No Talk


That's not 10, though the right answer conveys a similar sentiment (or perhaps, if you take it apart, the opposite one). Also, it's idiomatically Brit - so the Yanks here stand very little chance. On the other hand, it's likely to be a Yank that gets 8. I'm very even-handed like that.

I thought 6 and 8 would be the tough ones. I'm simultaneously impressed and dismayed that kasie got _All My Eye and Betty Martin_ so immediately.


STOP PRESS: I've just discovered that there's a US equivalent of 10 - which would be AH&NC. It's one I'm going to start using, I think.

----------


## prendrelemick

8. Ridden hard and put away wet. (Kasie's is so much nicer)

10. All mouth andno trousers

----------


## MarkBastable

Well done, mick.

So we're left with two from the field of commerce:

14. B&PF

15. AA&AL

Also, following my addition to the previous post, the US version of 10, AH&NC (which might just be a Texan thing).... Not that that one's really part of the game - it just amused me.

----------


## billl

All Hat and No Cattle

----------


## billl

14. Bought and Paid For

----------


## kasie

15 Audited Accounts and Adjusted Losses? 

(I know the feminine version of the All Mouth one......)

----------


## MarkBastable

<duplicate post>

----------


## MarkBastable

> Audited Accounts and Adjusted Losses?


Nope. It has to do with the expression of cost. To be honest, I nearly didn't include this remaining one because I don't think it's as neat a 'listy' thing as the others. If no one's got it by this evening, I'll give the answer and we'll move on.





> (I know the feminine version of the All Mouth one......)


If you're thinking of FC&NK, I'd say that that wasn't quite like AM&NT, which is about failure to deliver on a boast, whereas FC&NK is more to do with a high likelihood of delivery despite pretensions to the contrary.

----------


## MarkBastable

An arm & a leg.


Kasie's go, I think.

----------


## prendrelemick

So obvious - when you know the answer.

----------


## kasie

Ah, gee, thanks, Mark.......

Right, the same only different - I'm incapable of original thought right now - opening lines of poems. An easy one to start off:

1 I X D K K /A S P D D

2 I W L A A C

3 H A L, H A L, /H A L O

4 S I C T T A S D? /T A M L A M T

5 I I A A M /A H S O O T

6 I W A A G N, A G T I

7 M L I L A R R R

8 T C T T K O P D

9 S O M A M F

10 A D T F I A T /W U E M G?

11 I M G D T T S A, T T L S A T S

12 H D I L T? L M C T W

13 I Y C K Y H W A A Y /A L T A B I O Y

14 T, T, B B /I T F O T N 

15 T,T, L S /H I W W Y A

16 T B A T S T /D G A G I T W

17 A D S H N D

18 O, T B I E /N T A T

19 L M N T T M O T M /A I, L I N L /W A W I A F, /O B W T R T R:

And to finish, not a beginning, but an ending:

20 .............O!Y
S T C C A T T T?
A I T H S F T?

----------


## MarkBastable

I'll smugly pick off the easy ones before I leave for work...


1 I X D K K /A S P D D In Xanadu did Kublai Khan

2 I W L A A C I wandered lonely as a cloud

3 H A L, H A L, /H A L Half a league, half a league

4 S I C T T A S D? /T A M L A M T Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?

5 I I A A M /A H S O O T 

6 I W A A G N, A G T I

7 M L I L A R R R My love is like a red, red rose

8 T C T T K O P D 

9 S O M A M F

10 A D T F I A T /W U E M G? And did those feet....

11 I M G D T T S A, T T L S A T S I must go down to the sea again

12 H D I L T? L M C T W How do I love thee?

13 I Y C K Y H W A A Y /A L T A B I O Y If you can keep your head...

14 T, T, B B /I T F O T N Tiger, Tiger, burning bright

15 T,T, L S /H I W W Y A

16 T B A T S T /D G A G I T W

17 A D S H N D And Death shall have no dominion

18 O, T B I E /N T A T Oh, to be in England

19 L M N T T M O T M /A I, L I N L /W A W I A F, /O B W T R T R: Let me not to the marriage of true minds

And to finish, not a beginning, but an ending:

20 .............O!Y
S T C C A T T T?
A I T H S F T?[/QUOTE] ...is there honey still for tea?

----------


## kasie

Well done - I think you'd better be preparing the next puzzle.  :Smile5:

----------


## prendrelemick

Blummin 'eck he's got the three I knew. (I obviously go to work much earlier than Mark)

----------


## prendrelemick

> I'll smugly pick off the easy ones before I leave for work...
> 
> 
> 1 I X D K K /A S P D D In Xanadu did Kublai Khan
> 
> 2 I W L A A C I wandered lonely as a cloud
> 
> 3 H A L, H A L, /H A L Half a league, half a league
> 
> ...


 ...is there honey still for tea?[/QUOTE]


But I get home earlier.

----------


## kasie

Wow, am I impressed or what! It looked easy until I typed it in and then it looked horrendously difficult but - you clever lot have cracked it - just three left. Think C18th, Nursery Rhymes and Nonsense......

----------


## MarkBastable

I I A A M /A H S O O T It is an ancient mariner/and he stopoth one in three


That'll be 'one _of_ three', given the clue. Now I have to look it up to see which of you is right.

(I'm not suggesting for an instant that I'd've got it either way, though I should have.)

----------


## prendrelemick

I standoth corrected.

15 .Twinkle twinkle little star.

----------


## billl

I really want to raise an objection about the lack of U.S. poetry in this puzzle. HOWEVER, I only know the beginning of maybe three U.S. poems, and I don't really have too many at all memorized from whatever country, and for all I know half of this puzzle does actually consist of U.S. poems.

----------


## MarkBastable

16. Twas brillig and the slithy toves....


Man, I'm embarrassed that wasn't the first one I got.

----------


## prendrelemick

Ahh. 16. Twas brilling and the slithey toves/ did gire and gimble in the wabe.



A day off work today (callooh callay.)


Edit: Sorry, too late.

----------


## prendrelemick

> I really want to raise an objection about the lack of U.S. poetry in this puzzle. HOWEVER, I only know the beginning of maybe three U.S. poems, and I don't really have too many at all memorized from whatever country, and for all I know half of this puzzle does actually consist of U.S. poems.



No, you're quite right billl, this is the kind of stuff we brits took in with our mother's milk.

----------


## MarkBastable

So we're left with the eighteenth century teaser...

8 T C T T K O P D 

..which apparently my mother failed to supply. She was always more of a post-modernist neo-expressionist breastfeeder.

----------


## kasie

> I really want to raise an objection about the lack of U.S. poetry in this puzzle. HOWEVER, I only know the beginning of maybe three U.S. poems, and I don't really have too many at all memorized from whatever country, and for all I know half of this puzzle does actually consist of U.S. poems.


I did realise that this was a rather anglo-centric selection, billl, and I almost apologised to you in advance but the only American verses I could think of were 'Captain, my captain!' (Thank you 'Dead Poets Society'....), something about Annabelle Lee, a raven quothing 'Nevermore', something vague from Hiawatha and 'The woods are lovely, dark and deep/ But I have promises to keep/ and miles to go before I sleep' and I couldn't remember the opening lines. I know, I could have gone on line to fiind them but I'm a sweetly old-fashioned sort of gal who likes her poetry from a book she can reach down from the shelf and I'm ashamed to say I have no book of American verse.  :Blush:  (It didn't find much of a place in Eng Lit courses in my day....) I did squeeze in a Scot, an Irishman and a Welshman - and I was a bit doubtful about Dylan but I can see his 'Lovely, ugly city' from my window so he sort of insisted on being in there somewhere - so it wasn't entirely English. And Mick's right - we grow up with these verses, even if we only remember the opening lines.

5 It is an ancient Mariner, /And he stoppeth one *of* three.

Only one to go - well done.

----------


## prendrelemick

The curfew tolls the knell of parting day


That was lucky, it's about the only C18 poem I know.

----------


## MarkBastable

Phew. That last one's a weight off my mind. I was becoming obsessed.

Okay - animal idioms. To give you something to go on, the animals are given in a separate list, but the initial letter is asterisked in the phrase initials. I think that a few solve themselves, simply because - given the animal - there's only one idiom it can possibly be, which'll make the rest easier to get. But we'll see how it goes.


ABFO*A*NFT*WLDWTLE*HIDAPAAC*A*ISCFLA*SLAB*ITGYCLA*TWA*CCIST*TGTCAPAA*LA*TTSA*IYBO*DMASUT*CH*IYPSTSFT*DCY*BTHA*WASH


ants
bear
bee
butterfly
cat
chickens
cows
dog
elephant
goats
horse
lamb
leopard
lion
monkeys
mouse
peacock
snake
swallow
wolf

----------


## prendrelemick

> Phew. That last one's a weight off my mind. I was becoming obsessed.
> 
> Okay - animal idioms. To give you something to go on, the animals are given in a separate list, but the initial letter is asterisked in the phrase initials. I think that a few solve themselves, simply because - given the animal - there's only one idiom it can possibly be, which'll make the rest easier to get. But we'll see how it goes.
> 
> 
> ABFO*A*NFAn elephant never forgetsT*WLDWTLThe lion will lie down with the lambE*HIDAPAAC*A*ISCFLA*SLABFloats like a butterfly stings like a bee*ITGSnake in the grassYCLA*TWA*CCISA leopard cannot change its spotsT*TGTCAPAA*LA*TTSA*IYBO*DMASOne swallow doesn't make a summerUT*CH*IYPAnts in your pantsSTSFT*DCY*BTHA*WASH
> 
> 
> ants
> ...


Thats a start anyway.

----------


## jajdude

4. Every dog has its day.
6. A wolf in sheep's clothing
9. You can lead a horse to water...
19. Don't count your chickens before they're hatched.

14. A bee in your bonnet.

----------


## prendrelemick

Hmm, Cat got your tongue, Cat's whiskers, Cat o nine tails, No room to swing a Cat, Cat's cradle, Like a Cat with the cream.

Ahh, No. 11 The cat that got the cream!

Brainstorming works!


What's left.

Monkeys
Peacock
Bear
Cows
Lamb
Mouse
Goats.

18. Sort the sheep from the goats
1. A barrell full of monkeys
16. Until the cows come home

----------


## kasie

> The curfew tolls the knell of parting day
> 
> 
> That was lucky, it's about the only C18 poem I know.


Me, too, Mick! (I think).  :Smile5:

----------


## MarkBastable

Update.....



ABFO* A barrell full of monkeys

A*NF An elephant never forgets

T*WLDWTL The lion will lie down with the lamb

E*HID Every dog has its day

APAAC*

A*ISC A wolf in sheep's clothing

FLA*SLAB Floats like a butterfly stings like a bee

*ITG Snake in the grass

YCLA*TW You can lead a horse to water...

A*CCIS A leopard cannot change its spots

T*TGTC The cat that got the cream

APAA* 

LA*TTS

A*IYB A bee in your bonnet

O*DMAS One swallow doesn't make a summer

UT*CH Until the cows come home

*IYP Ants in your pants

STSFT* Sort the sheep from the goats

DCY*BTH Don't count your chickens before they're hatched

A*WASH 


.....which leaves

bear 
lamb
mouse 
peacock

----------


## kasie

5 As poor as a church mouse

12 As proud as a peacock

13 Like a lamb to the slaughter

20 A bear with a sore head

Good game, Mark - Mick's turn, I think?

----------


## prendrelemick

A traditional riddle.

As I was going through Bramble hall,
A proud old man gave me a call;
His beard was flesh, his mouth was horn,
And this old man was never born.



Hang on a minute! I bet kasie knew them all - all along, but didn't want to set a question.

----------


## kasie

Ummm - not quite, Mick and anyway, you beat me to it, I was out on Thursday evening so didn't pick up the puzzle until Friday morning.

But as you've sussed me, I won't try an answer to your puzzle.....

----------


## jajdude

I have never heard these before:

The cat that got the cream
Sort the sheep from the goats
A bear with a sore head 

British expressions, perhaps?

----------


## MarkBastable

The cat that got the cream - probably Brit
Sort the sheep from the goats - Biblical, I believe (Matthew 25.31-46)
A bear with a sore head - probably US

----------


## jajdude

Ok, thanks. New puzzle? Whose turn is it?

----------


## MarkBastable

Mick posted a riddle last week. And apparently it's stumped everyone.

----------


## billl

> A traditional riddle.
> 
> As I was going through Bramble hall,
> A proud old man gave me a call;
> His beard was flesh, his mouth was horn,
> And this old man was never born.


Maybe like a large pipe organ, with someone (the beard) playing it?

----------


## prendrelemick

And I thought it was another case of prendrelemick kills off the thread with a too easy question .

Clue: This old man kept a comb but had no hair.

----------


## billl

Rooster? (I don't know what the comb would be, but I'm throwing it out there anyhow.)



EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comb_(anatomy)

**** of the walk, baby!

----------


## prendrelemick

Commiserations billl, you're right!

----------


## MarkBastable

So what's the 'never born' bit about? Having been an egg doesn't count as birth?

See, this is why I hate riddles. That kind of contrivance makes me cross.

Still - off we go....

----------


## billl

I heard this one over the weekend:

There's a 10-mile long bamboo and twine bridge between two islands in the South Pacific. It's a hell of a thing this bridge, enormous and pretty strong for not having any metal or concrete involved.

Anyhow, there's a toll booth at each end, and you have to pay AND you have to get weighed if you are in a truck, because the bridge has a strict (total) 20 ton limit. If you go even the slightest bit beyond that limit, the bridge will collapse.

Well, Joe Trucker drives onto the scales, and his truck (with him inside) weighed EXACTLY 20 tons. Not a milligram over or under. Well, the toll booth guy called the toll booth guy at the other end, and they blocked incoming traffic and waited for the cars already on the bridge to clear off. With the bridge eventually clear of all other traffic, Joe T. started the engine and began driving onto the bridge.

About half-way across, a sparrow came flying alongside his truck, on the passenger side. Then, amazingly, the bird stuck out its legs and made to land on the passenger-side rear-view mirror. In a matter of moments, the bird would be resting on the truck, and adding to the total weight!

What did Joe Trucker do?

----------


## Calidore

Shoot it, thus lightening the truck by the weight of a bullet?

Toss his coffee out the window?

Nothing, because he'd burned more than a sparrow's weight of gas driving that far?

----------


## billl

> Shoot it, thus lightening the truck by the weight of a bullet?
> 
> Toss his coffee out the window?
> 
> Nothing, because he'd burned more than a sparrow's weight of gas driving that far?


The last one in your list of suggestions is the one that the guys on the radio show Car Talk were looking for (Joe didn't have to do anything), but they also admitted that tossing a shoe out of the window and so on were also things that Joe might do. Good going, Calidore.

----------


## Calidore

Score one for the dartboard approach. 

However, I haven't a puzzle handy and don't always look at this thread anyway, so if anyone who doesn't normally get to would like to put one up in my place, go for it.

And if it's bad form to toss out an answer without a follow-up handy, please say so.

----------


## MarkBastable

What connects table football, calm water on a breezeless day and Soviet anti anti tank weapons?

----------


## billl

> What connects table football, calm water on a breezeless day and Soviet anti anti tank weapons?


I'm sorry, I just have to check (because the nearly redundant/repetitive "calm water on a breezeless day" opens up a vaguely tantalizing prospect, albeit one exposed as pretty much hopeless in the light of the straight-forward "table football") if there really is supposed to be two "anti's" in there.

----------


## prendrelemick

I 've heard of soviet tanks having "reflective" armour that exploded outwards when hit by a shell.

That would tie in with a reflective surface of water, (just noticed quotation marks - more research needed there.)

The table football has me stumped (or should that be sick as a parrot) at the moment.

----------


## MarkBastable

> I'm sorry, I just have to check (because the nearly redundant/repetitive "calm water on a breezeless day" opens up a vaguely tantalizing prospect, albeit one exposed as pretty much hopeless in the light of the straight-forward "table football") if there really is supposed to be two "anti's" in there.


Yes, there is.

----------


## billl

All right--and while I have you, would it also be the case that "weapon" would indicate something that strikes back/against (rather than some defensive equipment, like armor or camoflauge)?

----------


## MarkBastable

> All right--and while I have you, would it also be the case that "weapon" would indicate something that strikes back/against (rather than some defensive equipment, like armor or camoflauge)?


Yes, it would.

This is quite a difficult problem, and might require a bit of research - but the connection's not very contrived. If there's no progress by tomorrow, I'll give clues.

----------


## MarkBastable

Practically giving it away, here are the clues...

----------


## prendrelemick

I recognise the Thrush and the Kingfisher, and am willing to bet the other is a Falco Subbuteo because that was a line of enquiry I rejected last week.

So, table football = Subbuteo = Hobby

Still water = Halcyon =Kingfisher

That leaves the Thrush and its connection to auntie's anti tank weapon.

----------


## billl

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drozd

----------


## prendrelemick

Thanks billl, that means its your turn, eh?

----------


## billl

I suppose. A bittersweet victory, caught on the tails of doubly-grand-accomplishment and give-away-clues.

----------


## MarkBastable

The guy who invented the game tried to patent it as 'The Hobby' but was told that wasn't allowed. So he used the Latin for the bird of the same name - _Subbuteo_.

I find it oddly satisfying that the Russian 'drozd' is so obviously cognate with 'throstle'.

----------


## billl

I might be shaking my fist with a little too much indignant frustration here, because I wasn't even close, but the internet was directing me to Foosball when I checked "Table Soccer".

I actually had a friend who had the complete Subbuteo thing with the pitch and everything in the 70's, and I was totally thinking that might be what "Table Soccer" was until my Google steered me wrong.

But, to reiterate, it isn't like that was the one element that ultimately stumped me. And thanks for the memories!

----------


## billl

Yuae iuei otoh vfgr dtu!

----------


## prendrelemick

> I might be shaking my fist with a little too much indignant frustration here, because I wasn't even close, but the internet was directing me to Foosball when I checked "Table Soccer".
> 
> I actually had a friend who had the complete Subbuteo thing with the pitch and everything in the 70's, and I was totally thinking that might be what "Table Soccer" was until my Google steered me wrong.
> 
> But, to reiterate, it isn't like that was the one element that ultimately stumped me. And thanks for the memories!



Yeah, Google did that to me too, turned me from the right path early on.

----------


## billl

> Yuae iuei otoh vfgr dtu!


(It would be cruel to do a "typical" cryptogram as short as this one. It's a different kind of cipher, and pretty difficult I would think, if you are unfamiliar with it. Maybe a clue tomorrow, if needed...)

----------


## prendrelemick

It's got me stumped.

----------


## billl

Unlike other ones we've done, this one is not a *substitution* cipher.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Unlike other ones we've done, this one is not a *substitution* cipher.


Great. That narrows down my available approaches. From one to none.

----------


## billl

We might normally have the puzzle-giver give some clue here, somewhere between the lines of our typical one-upmanship half-disguised as discussion. Perhaps something like that would be in order?

----------


## prendrelemick

Ha! I've got it.

and it did indeed take alot of figuring out!


The clue was that all the vowels seemed to be together and so were all the consanants, so it was a case of sorting them out, then a pattern emerged.

simple but clever, well done billl.

----------


## billl

I didn't come up with it myself, but I'm glad you enjoyed figuring it out! (Nice work, by the way.)

Here's an attached text file with the explanation of the cipher for those who are done racking their brains on it:

----------


## MarkBastable

.....having read it, I still don't understand it. Or rather, I do, but I can't make it work with yours, even though I can see what the answer is.

This may be one of those things that have to do with how my brain works, along with not knowing my left from my right, and having all the spatial awareness of a stick-man drawn in lipstick on a mirror. I'm lousy at Scrabble too.

----------


## billl

Ha, well, I noticed that I spelled "book" wrong in my attachment, and so I wouldn't be surprised if my hasty explanation was inelegant or even featured a completely backwards near-misrepresentation of a key point.

Here is another explanation I found from Wikipedia, with a slightly trickier example that might be easier to understand than mine (at the very least, it's another look at the thing).

----------


## ShoutGrace

Yo uh av ef ig ur ed it ou t

Brutal. Took my brain a long time to work through that! I'm exhausted.

----------


## billl

I'll bet it was satisfying to finally figure it out, Grace.

So, Mick is next (unless he's really pulled off one heck of a bluff on us).

----------


## prendrelemick

No, no I split the sentence in half - ten characters in each, (including exclamation mark) Then wrote down the first letter of the first half, then the first letter of the second half, then the second letter of the first half, then the second letter of the second half.... Simples!


Now my turn

A group of friends booked a holiday together. With their conformation they received this weasley worded pledge.

"_We promise that regardless of age or gender, Iceland -your holiday destination - will inspire nearly all who visit_"


How many went on the trip?
What were their names?


And just for fun (To avoid the dreaded Brit bias ) what kind of bread was in the packed lunches.? and what was the gluten free alternative?

----------


## kasie

Well, that would have been Seth, Reg, Les, George, Andy, Des, Nat, Will, Ned and Al, the Terrible Ten, I think. And the sarnies were made of Hovis with an alternative of Rice. (You didn't ask, but they were sitting on the sofa when they decided on the trip.)

----------


## prendrelemick

They certainly were, :Biggrin:  but there were many more of them.

Ned may be a stowaway.

----------


## kasie

Did Rene and Tina go along too? And I wondered about Deric but I wouldn't have spelled his name like that.

----------


## MarkBastable

....I was going to suggest where they filled up the car on the way to the airport, but it seemed too little too late. Not that _they_ were late. Quite the opposite.

----------


## prendrelemick

yep, but they were by no means the only ladies.


Mark: a person may be named after not being late.

I'm not having Deric though..

----------


## kasie

Sorry, Ned shouldn't be there, he crept in via my poor handwriting that made a look like d.

I notice Eric may have joined the party. And maybe Ric? Did Ina decide to come as well?

----------


## prendrelemick

Ric and Ina couldn't get a passport with names like that.


About seven to go. (All the names were checked against "Names for Baby" 1981 edition)

----------


## MarkBastable

You mean Al, I suppose, who was picked up just past the church.

----------


## prendrelemick

Mmm, Will was in the church and Al just beyond.- but we've already had them.


I would like to apologise to Ina, she should've been going but I missed her. I hope there are no others.

----------


## prendrelemick

> No, no I split the sentence in half - ten characters in each, (including exclamation mark) Then wrote down the first letter of the first half, then the first letter of the second half, then the second letter of the first half, then the second letter of the second half.... Simples!
> 
> 
> Now my turn
> 
> A group of friends booked a holiday together. With their conformation they received this weasley worded pledge.
> 
> "_We promise that regardless of age or gender, Iceland -your holiday destination - will inspire nearly all who visit_"
> 
> ...



So far :-

Seth
Reg
Les
George
Eric
Andy
Des
Tina
Nat
Will
Rene
Ina
Al

With Hovis sandwiches and Rice alternative, the minibus was filled up at an ESSO garage and there is a sofa involved somehow.

There are another seven people to pick up yet.

----------


## billl

Well, here's some lame attempts:

Lin
Irene
Earl

seem sufficiently British.

"Nea" is a popular Finnish name.

"Ender" is the name of a famous Sci-Fi character.

"Cela" is probably an acceptable name in Spain or Portugal.

----------


## MarkBastable

Not to mention Lyall.

----------


## prendrelemick

Irene, earl and Lyall are in the official book. (Names for Baby )


Lin , Nea, Cela, and Ender aren't, even though "Ender's Game" is a classic of Sci Fi. If you aint in The Book, you aint on the trip.

4 to go

----------


## billl

It is less than five characters, so let me preface it with all of this--but how about**:

"I"?

EDIT: and "you"?

----------


## prendrelemick

Nope, 

A clue, Des and Tina's daugher, sister to Nat.

----------


## kasie

> Nope, 
> 
> A clue, Des and Tina's daugher, sister to Nat.


Is Estina a name?

----------


## prendrelemick

Nope, but you're in the right street - Destination Avenue - think of the Moon


Then there is Earl's twin sister who was born before her time. (I must admit I was suprised to find her in The Book, turns out it is an old male name. )

Then there is a couple who are always on holiday.

----------


## MarkBastable

Oli and Lida?





> Nope, but you're in the right street - Destination Avenue - think of the Moon
> 
> 
> Then there is Earl's twin sister who was born before her time. (I must admit I was suprised to find her in The Book, turns out it is an old male name. )
> 
> Then there is a couple who are always on holiday.

----------


## prendrelemick

Oli is in (suprisingly) Lida isn't but its so close.

----------


## MarkBastable

Ho? Olid? Liday? Iday? Day? Or even, Dayde?

----------


## prendrelemick

No, try again! no need to get in such a STATE.

----------


## MarkBastable

Ida. The ho.

----------


## MarkBastable

Not Io, surely? Though I'd love to meet someone with that name.

And if it is, I'd pedantically complain that the clue should have been 'think of the moon' (lowercase).

----------


## prendrelemick

I'm sorry if that's the case.

My daughters best friend was called Io Fox. 

Ida is right, but I cannot possibly comment on her status.

Now, only Earl's twin sister-who sounds like she was born was born before her time- to get, then I can go and get some work done. She may sound like a hippy child of the 60's but her name has ancient roots, meaning a young eagle. 

She and Earl are very close.

----------


## kasie

Early? Earlya?

----------


## prendrelemick

Yes! Its Early.

Thank goodness, I was about to post that I had made a terrible mistake - its actually down in The Book as a boys name! - I copied it out wrongly. (I've also just discovered Arly) 

So that's it. I think Kasie got the most of them.

----------


## kasie

Oh. Goody. My turn then......

Let's have an easy one. Here are some more '&' puzzles:

1 SS&BF

2 F&FB

3 TGTB&TU

4 SW&TSD

5 TW&HW

6 B&L

7 ATB&B, ACG&S

8 HS&J

9 HT&E

10 H&L

11 RD&MH (DILY, MOM?)

12 G&T

13 AO&SC

14 O&L, STBOSC

15 RH&HMM

16 AP&C

17 J&JWUTH

18 MLL&G

19 B&GCOTP

20 TIG&KYPD

These were the ones I was looking for last time but they weren't there.

Early is a name??

----------


## MarkBastable

There's a pizza in the oven. I have to rush.

11. Do I love you? My oh my. River Deep, Mountain High.

(You'll notice that I put no '&' in there, because I'm going to have to go back to the record to make sure she actually sings the word.)

----------


## jajdude

I don't know any on first glance.

----------


## prendrelemick

I got the Gin and Tonic straight away. (12)

Nothing else though.


1. Ship shape & Bristol fashion.

----------


## billl

You can be sure that the extent of my contributions to this mind-buster will be

2. Few & Far Between

----------


## prendrelemick

Morning bill. The Good, The Bad and the Ugly (3) have now all contributed.

----------


## kasie

So far, so good.

You may be right, Mark, in which case I apologise - it's just that 'singing' it in my head (and you would not want it sung any other way, believe me), I need an & to make the words fit the melody.

At that time in the morning, Mick? Oh well, I suppose the sun is over the yardarm somewhere in the world.

----------


## MarkBastable

5. The world and his wife
14. Oranges and lemons, say the bells of St. Clements
15. Robin Hood and his Merry Men
17. Jack and Jill went up the hill.

----------


## prendrelemick

20. Trust in God & keep your powder dry.

----------


## Calidore

7. All things bright & beautiful, all creatures great & small

----------


## billl

8. Hop, skip and jump.

----------


## kasie

So far, so good, folks. Let's have an update:





> 1 SS&BF *Ship Shape & Bristol Fashion*
> 
> 2 F&FB *Few & Far Between*
> 
> 3 TGTB&TU *The Good, the Bad & the Ugly*
> 
> 4 SW&TSD *Snow White & the Seven Dwarfs*
> 
> 5 TW&HW *The World & His Wife*
> ...


Just over half solved - a couple of Nursery Rhymes still to be deciphered.

----------


## MarkBastable

4. Snow White and the Seven Dwarves


Oh, and we've got 14.

----------


## kasie

Apologies, so you have - list duly amended. Yes, to no 4 as well.

----------


## prendrelemick

10. Highs and lows.


6. Big and little? (I suspect that's wrong)


19. Boys and girls come out to play.

----------


## kasie

10 I was thinking just 'High & Low' but I'll accept the plural.

6 No - it's a nautical expression that is irritatingly used wrongly in general speech. 

19 - Correct.

I'll amend the list.

----------


## prendrelemick

Ah, that'll be "By and Large" then. Something to do with wind direction ?

----------


## MystyrMystyry

9 - Here, There, & Everywhere

----------


## prendrelemick

16. All present and correct.

----------


## kasie

> Ah, that'll be "By and Large" then. Something to do with wind direction ?


That's it, Mick - I think it's something to do with using an adverse wind to move forward. My old seafaring chap explained it to me and Patrick O'Brian has Jack Aubrey use it from time to time but it's all a bit to complicated for a sworn landlubber like me. How did I ever come to marry a sailor??

And yes, 9 and 16 are correct.

Just two to go - think Detective stories (possibly) and banquets......

----------


## prendrelemick

18. My lords, ladies and Gentleman.

----------


## MarkBastable

...an open and shut case

----------


## Calidore

I've never come across 1, 5, and 14 before. What are they from?

----------


## prendrelemick

1. Is a nautical term. Ships from Bristol were supposed to be more polished, looked after and properly run. 

5. Is a way of saying everybody. No idea where it comes from.

14. Is a well known nursery rhyme, based on the different sounds of church bells in London.

Oranges and lemons, say the bells of St Clements,
You owe me five farthings, say the bells of St Martins,
When will you pay me, say the bells of Old Bailey,
When I grow rich, say the bells of Shoreditch,
When will that be, say the bells of Stepney,
I do not know, say the great bells of Bow,
Here comes a candle to light you to bed,
And here comes the axeman to chop off your head,
Chop! Chop! off goes the next man's head.

There was a game we used to play with it as well.

Ahh memories...

----------


## kasie

Well done, folks - down to you now, Mick, I think.....

----------


## MarkBastable

A bit more on 'Bristol fashion', suggesting a practical reason for ships in Bristol Harbour having to be well-organised.

----------


## billl

Yes, the difference in the clothes she wears--down to Mick...

----------


## Calidore

Thanks for the education, prendrelemick!

----------


## prendrelemick

You have a 6 inch tall cylindrical glass with some water in it. You know the glass holds 12 fl oz when full. When you tilt the glass untill the water is just at the brim on one side, it is 4 inches below the rim on the other. How much water is in the glass.?

----------


## Ecurb

> You have a 6 inch tall cylindrical glass with some water in it. You know the glass holds 12 fl oz when full. When you tilt the glass untill the water is just at the brim on one side, it is 4 inches below the rim on the other. How much water is in the glass.?


I haven't taken a math class in many decades. However, 8 oz. seems the obvious answer. In other words, 1/3 of the original in the 2" of cylinder at the bottom (4 oz.) + 1/2 of the remaining 2/3 volume (another 4 oz.).

----------


## prendrelemick

Well, that was treated with the contempt it deserved. Probably the fastest ever correct answer.

Your turn to post something Ecurb.

----------


## Ecurb

How many times must a man look up before he can see the sky?

(OK, that one's too easy. I'll come up with something else.)

Here's one from Lewis Carrol:

1) There are no pencils of mine in this box. 
2) No sugar-plumbs of mine are cigars. 
3) The whole of my property, that is not in the box, consists of cigars 

Assuming these three axioms, what can we conclude?

----------


## MarkBastable

> How many times must a man look up before he can see the sky?
> 
> (OK, that one's too easy. I'll come up with something else.)
> 
> Here's one from Lewis Carrol:
> 
> 1) There are no pencils of mine in this box. 
> 2) No sugar-plumbs of mine are cigars. 
> 3) The whole of my property, that is not in the box, consists of cigars 
> ...


If he owns any sugar-plums, they're in the box. He owns no pencils. The fetishistically narrow investment in cigars is unlikely to turn out well, even if he resists smoking his assets.

----------


## billl

You only own cigars. And things that aren't pencils, but are in that box (which belongs to someone else).

----------


## prendrelemick

> You only own cigars. And things that aren't pencils, but are in that box (which belongs to someone else).





Notice "sugar-plumbs" not "plums" which has leadey and therefore pencily conotations. (Plumbagoi is a name for the graphite used in pencils)


I think we can assume that he has some sugar-plumbs from the second statement, and (a weaker assumption) that there are some pencis in the box from the first statement. So we have to assume the sugar plumbs are in the box from the third. BUT because of the wording these are assumpions only


To sum up:

It is likely that the box contains someone else's pencils and his own sugar-plumbs. He also owns more than one cigar.

----------


## Ecurb

According to Charles Dodgson (aka Lewis Carroll), the answer is: "No pencils of mine are sugar-plumbs." 

Here's an explanation:
http://www.mathorama.com/geom/lessons/puzzle2.html

----------


## prendrelemick

We have gone to where logic slips the surly bonds of reality, where I struggle to follow.


I wonder what Sherlock Holmes would've come up with?

----------


## Ecurb

OK, I'll grant that was a hard one. Here's another Lewis Carroll puzzle that's a little easier:

No kitten that loves fish is unteachable. 
No kitten without a tail will play with a gorilla. 
Kittens with whiskers always love fish. 
No teachable kitten has green eyes. 
No kittens have tails unless they have whiskers. 

What can we conclude?

----------


## billl

> OK, I'll grant that was a hard one. Here's another Lewis Carroll puzzle that's a little easier:
> 
> No kitten that loves fish is unteachable. 
> No kitten without a tail will play with a gorilla. 
> Kittens with whiskers always love fish. 
> No teachable kitten has green eyes. 
> No kittens have tails unless they have whiskers. 
> 
> What can we conclude?


Is the answer short and snappy, or lengthy? One short answer would maybe be:

No green-eyed kittens will play with gorillas.

----------


## Ecurb

For some reason, Carrol says, "Only a kitten without green eyes will play with a gorilla."

Your answer seems the same to me, billl.

----------


## billl

Yeah, I had to choose how to express it. I thought I might have gotten it, but wasn't sure if maybe there was something further he might've been looking for. To know what's being looked for, one has to sort of see how it's set up to lead to one conclusion that's most "difficult" or "indirect".

The green eyes and the gorilla-playing were the only things that didn't get mentioned twice, so that's what we have to look at (have to connect, apparently).

Here's the work, because it's fun and satisfying to lay it out. (Nothing about my pride or ego or anything like that.)




> No kitten that loves fish is unteachable. 
> No kitten without a tail will play with a gorilla. 
> Kittens with whiskers always love fish. 
> No teachable kitten has green eyes. 
> No kittens have tails unless they have whiskers.


IF THEN STATEMENTS
If a kitten plays with a gorilla, it will have a tail. (rewording sentence 2)
AND
If a kitten has a tail, it will have whiskers. (5)
AND
If a kitten has whiskers, it will love fish. (3)
AND
If a kitten loves fish, it is teachable. (1)
AND
If a kitten is teachable, it won't have green eyes. (4)

Using deduction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism), we get:

If a kitten plays with a gorilla, it won't have green eyes.

----------


## billl

Here's an old Hindu puzzle (I originally found it in a Raymond Smullyan book):




> Out of a swarm of bees one-fifth part settled on a Kadamba blossom; one-third on a Silindhra flower; three times the difference of those numbers flew to the bloom of a Kutaja. One bee, which remained, hovered about in the air. Tell me, charming woman, the number of bees

----------


## jajdude

46? 

just a guess

----------


## billl

sorry, jajdude...

----------


## kasie

15??? (The extra ?s are there not only because I'm not sure of the answer but because the system [They] won't let me post 15? because it's less than five letters/figures.)

----------


## Ecurb

Fifteen is correct! Kasie rules (I got the same answer before looking at Kasie's though).

----------


## billl

Good going, guys.

----------


## kasie

I have a busy day ahead, so I ask your indulgence while I think of a new puzzle, folks. Also I need more time to recover from those Lewis Carroll teasers - nothing so tortuous will be coming from me, I promise!

----------


## jajdude

Well done, kasie.

----------


## kasie

OK - I've thunk - two of these actually appeared in the crossword and Codeword I did yesterday after lunch.

CROSSWORD CLUES

1 a fish (3)

2 You're being watched! (abbrev) (4)

3 South American tylopod (5)

4 one of these is very short (abbrev) (2)

5 strange and disturbing (5)

6 give out moisture (4)

7 always poetic (3)

8 with reference to the Pope (abbrev) (2)

9 very quietly (mus) (2)

10 leading African mammal (8)

11 sedimentary rock (6)

12 given to an exceptionally brave soldier (abbrev) (2)

13 a very small volume (abbrev) (2)

14 study of birds' eggs (6)

15 for and on behalf of (abbrev) (2)

16 critical day of action (1,3)

17 a very modern address (abbrev) (3)

18 black Chinese tea (6)

19 Manx races (abbrev) (2)

20 lots and lots (6)

So, what's the pattern? Once you have a couple, you'll see it. (And just to be kind, I didn't include words that cropped up in my Welsh lesson yesterday, such as 'Where do you live?' followed by 'Where's that?)

----------


## MarkBastable

They're all two-syllable rhymes?

(Having said that, the tylopod doesn't quite rhyme in my accent. And, wait, the study of bird's eggs is oology. Okay, forget that...)

1 a fish (3)

2 You're being watched! (abbrev) (4)

3 South American tylopod (5) llama

4 one of these is very short (abbrev) (2)

5 strange and disturbing (5) creepy

6 give out moisture (4) 

7 always poetic (3)

8 with reference to the Pope (abbrev) (2)

9 very quietly (mus) (2) pp

10 leading African mammal (8)

11 sedimentary rock (6)

12 given to an exceptionally brave soldier (abbrev) (2) vc

13 a very small volume (abbrev) (2) cc

14 study of birds' eggs (6)

15 for and on behalf of (abbrev) (2) pp

16 critical day of action (1,3) 

17 a very modern address (abbrev) (3)

18 black Chinese tea (6)

19 Manx races (abbrev) (2) tt

20 lots and lots (6)

----------


## prendrelemick

The fish may be a dab or an eel or a cod, I suspect that once we get the pattern we'll know which. Hmm COD is also an abbrev.. 

Unfortunately Elephant isn't.

----------


## kasie

Mark - yes to 3, 9, 9, 15, 19; no to 5 and 12 (not what I had in mind anyway.) and you should have gone with the birds' eggs idea.... And good idea about the two syllable rhymes -a future puzzle there, I think.

Mick - yes, it's one of those.  :Smile5:  And beware of 'leading' - these are crossword clues.

The abbreviations are a bit of a cheat, really, they are there to bulk up the quiz but they are all in the dictionary, the Chambers 21st Century dictionary, anyway.

----------


## MarkBastable

I suspect 2 is _cctv_, and 6 is _seep_. Is 7 _e'er_ and 16 _D-Day_?

Does this have something to do with the way that the answers can be 'fitted together'?

----------


## kasie

Mark - yes to 2, 7 and 16; not what I had in mind for 6 but I suspect you are getting close to working out the link.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Mark - yes to 2, 7 and 16; not what I had in mind for 6 but I suspect you are getting close to working out the link.



Oh no I'm not.

There are several six-letter sedimentary rocks, but for no reason at all I've decided it's _gypsum_.


(Except it's going to be oolite, isn't it?)

----------


## kasie

:Biggrin:  (kasie does her Cheshire Cat impression.) 

Not gypsum but you're nearly there, Mark......

----------


## prendrelemick

Ok, the link is now obvious, so I know its eel and ooze, and perhaps gazelle or baboon, but Mark is the only winner here.

----------


## kasie

Mick - yes to eel and ooze, but no to gazelle or baboon - you haven't quite got the link yet.

----------


## prendrelemick

I think I have it now. but still can't get many answers.

20. oodles
5. eerie
16. D day

----------


## billl

4 mm
10 Aardvark
18 oolong

----------


## MarkBastable

> Not gypsum...



I think I said that I knew it wasn't.

To be fair, and not wishing to take credit I'm not due, I can't see what's wrong with Mick's 'baboon'.

Or perhaps I can. In which case, bill's right that it's 'aardvark'. Which would make 17 _www_.

----------


## kasie

Well done, folks - let's do a recap:

[QUOTE=kasie;1048667]CROSSWORD CLUES

1 a fish (3) *eel*

2 You're being watched! (abbrev) (4) *CCTV*

3 South American tylopod (5) *llama*

4 one of these is very short (abbrev) (2)

5 strange and disturbing (5) *eerie*

6 give out moisture (4) *ooze*

7 always poetic (3) *e'er* 

8 with reference to the Pope (abbrev) (2)

9 very quietly (mus) (2) *pp*

10 leading African mammal (8) *aardvark*

11 sedimentary rock (6) *oolite*

12 given to an exceptionally brave soldier (abbrev) (2)

13 a very small volume (abbrev) (2) *cc*

14 study of birds' eggs (6) *oology*

15 for and on behalf of (abbrev) (2) *pp*

16 critical day of action (1,3) *D Day*

17 a very modern address (abbrev) (3) *www*

18 black Chinese tea (6) *oolong*

19 Manx races (abbrev) (2) *TT*

20 lots and lots (6) *oodles*

Well done everyone but - what's the pattern? Any takers for the last few? [QUOTE]

----------


## MarkBastable

Double _first_ letters.

Without looking it up, I'd guess that the Pope one is another pp. Or possibly pP. And bill suggested mm for 4.

----------


## prendrelemick

Hang on. Who got e'er and how does that work?


Ah, a poetic ever. Bit slow there.


Just the brave soldier then. Is MM short for Military Medal?

I think the Pope's signiture is followed by pp for Papa.

----------


## kasie

That's it, Mark!

Apologies to Billl, I overlooked the mm solution.

Yes, Mick - Military Medal was the one I had in mind. You and Mark may be right about the pp (or pP) for the Pope but the one I found in the dictionary was HH - His Holiness.

Over to Mark, I think.

----------


## MarkBastable

For this one, IM me your responses.


1. Request for gratification.

2. Accompanying the creators.

3. A dark passage of inflexible light.

4. Buggy retail.

5. 

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

11.

12.



I don't want the answer to number 5 - I want a clue to it. When someone gives a clue that implies they know the answer, I'll update the list and everyone else can have a shot at coming up with a clue for 6. And so on.


I can't decide whether this is ridiculously easy or unjustifiably hard.

----------


## kasie

er....... or then again maybe... er....

Perhaps just a _teeny_ clue, Mark?

----------


## prendrelemick

Don't know about IMing, so have PM'd my clue for no.5


Like any puzzle, it's easy once you've twigged it.

----------


## MarkBastable

Update....

Mick and Kasie have got it, so they're out. I've put in a clue to number 5.

Everyone else - PM me your clues for number 6.


1. Request for gratification.

2. Accompanying the creators.

3. A dark passage of inflexible light.

4. Buggy retail.

5. Mayday.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

11.

12.

----------


## MarkBastable

No action. Shall I kill this one?

----------


## billl

I would've asked for a clue, but... These are clues, right?

I think I might know number 1, but the next most promising was 4, and it's 3 away from one, so the sky's the limit. This is enticing, but I just had trouble getting it to click--hope it won't seem toooo obvious once I find out.

----------


## MarkBastable

1. Request for gratification. _Please Please Me_

2. Accompanying the creators. _With the Beatles_

3. A dark passage of inflexible light. _A Hard Day's Night_

4. Buggy retail. _Beatles for Sale_

5. Mayday. _Help!_


...and so on.

Mick got it first. Over to him.

----------


## prendrelemick

I have a little something prepared..er..copied if I'm honest.


Gudewife Judith returns from milking the goats with a 12 pint bucket brimfull of milk. She decides to use half to make cheese and half to make syllabub. She hunts about in her dairy but can only find her 5 pint earthernware pot and her 7 pint earthernware bowl. Undeterred she sets about pouring milk into and out of her 3 vessels and soon has exactly 6 pints in the bucket and 6 pints in the bowl. How does she do it.?

----------


## MarkBastable

*12 7 5 Receptacles*

Can't get the columns to line up, but....

12 0 0 
5 7 0
5 2 5 
10 2 0 
10 0 2
3 7 2
3 4 5
8 4 0
8 0 4
1 7 4
1 6 5
6 6 0


I really ought to do some work soon.

----------


## prendrelemick

faultless.

----------


## MarkBastable

> faultless.


Thank you. But really a lot easier than that explanation makes it look.

----------


## prendrelemick

Yes it is, all you need do is make sure you never repeat yourself and it works automatically.

----------


## billl

In the grown-up version, the containers are held by two sheep and a wolf, who have to cross a river in a canoe that can hold only two at once.


(To be clear, actually, that was a great puzzle, wish I had gone after it right away... Maybe just plugging away, half-asleep, would've won me the prize! Anyhow, both of you have been an inspiration...)

----------


## MarkBastable

Literary 'and's... Again, they aren't any old 'and'. They're either intrinsic to the answer or, at the very least, indicative of how to figure it out.

The convention here is that titles are in caps and quotations aren't, regardless of how they'd be set if they were printed in full...


1. O&L

2. Lugt,y&i...

3. TP&TG

4. TM&S

5.J&TP

6. Itbww,&twwwg,&twwg.

7.GE&H

8. D&S

9. DS:OHILTSW&LTB

10. TH&HB

11.TTLG,&WAFT

12. F&Z

13. DJ&MH

14. Z&TAOMM

15. Ouat&avgtiwtwamcdatr... 

16. DL&TLG 

17. TS&TF 

18. Iwad&sn...

19. Iwabcdia,&tcws13. 

20. Iyrwthai, tftypwtkiwiwb, &wmlcwl, &hmpwo&abthm, &atdckoc...

----------


## prendrelemick

Recognised 14 straightaway.
Zen and the art of Motercycle Maintainance.
8. Dombey and son.


Will try harder tomorrow.

----------


## Calidore

2. Let us go there, you and I (?)

----------


## Calidore

18. It was a dark and stormy night.

----------


## MarkBastable

> 2. Let us go there, you and I (?)


...'then', rather than 'there' - but close enough.

----------


## prendrelemick

19 "It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen".

----------


## billl

5. Josie and the Pussycats
9. Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
12. Franny and Zooey

----------


## MarkBastable

Update...


1. O&L _Oscar and Lucinda_

2. Lugt,y&i... _Let us go then, you and I...._

3. TP&TG _The Power and the Glory_

4. TM&S

5. J&TP

6. Itbww,&twwwg,&twwg. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and so on and so forth....

7.GE&H

8. D&S _Dombey and Son_

9. DS:OHILTSW&LTB _Dr Strangelove: Or How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb_

10. TH&HB _The Horse and His Boy_

11.TTLG,&WAFT _Through the Looking Glass, and What Alice Found There_

12. F&Z _Franny and Zooey_

13. DJ&MH _Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde_

14. Z&TAOMM _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_

15. Ouat&avgtiwtwamcdatr... _Once upon a time and a very good time it was there was a moocow coming down the along road..._

16. DL&TLG 

17. TS&TF _The Sound and the Fury_

18. Iwad&sn... _It was a dark and stormy night..._

19. Iwabcdia,&tcws13. _It was a bright cold day in the April and the clocks were striking thirteen._

20. Iyrwthai, tftypwtkiwiwb, &wmlcwl, &hmpwo&abthm, &atdckoc... _If you really want to hear about it._.. And so on. The (long) opening sentence of Catcher in the Rye.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

3. The Princess and the Goblin

11. Through the Looking Glass and What Alice Found There

13. Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde (shouldn't this be 'The Strange Case of Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde'?)

15. Once upon a time and a very good time it was there was a moo cow coming down the along road...

17. The Sound and the Fury







J

----------


## Annamariah

10. The Horse and His Boy

----------


## MarkBastable

> 3. The Princess and the Goblin
> 
> 11. Through the Looking Glass and What Alice Found There
> 
> 13. Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde (shouldn't this be 'The Strange Case of Dr. Jeckyll and Mr. Hyde'?)
> 
> 15. Once upon a time and a very good time it was there was a moo cow coming down the along road...
> 
> 17. The Sound and the Fury
> ...



I've never heard of your number 3 - it's not the one I had in mind, which I'll hold out for.

Yeah - you're right about Jekyll and Hyde.

----------


## kasie

3 The Power and The Glory.

----------


## prendrelemick

Have you missed a 't' out of number 6, ie- In the beginning was the word.?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Have you missed a 't' out of number 6, ie- In the beginning was the word.?


Er, yeah. Sorry.

Wouldn't it be intriguing if I'd said 'no', and you had to find a completely different answer?

----------


## prendrelemick

1. Oscar and Lucinda.

20. If you really want to know about it, ect.. Catcher in the Rye

----------


## MarkBastable

Scroll down a bit for the update. Only three or four left, which are (to give further clues) an Irish play referring to an exotic bird, a London novel in which many real people appear, a novel that moves from London to Tahiti via Paris and a children's book with culinary associations.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

*takethemick* is on a roll.






J

----------


## kasie

4 The Moon and Sixpence.

5 Juno and The Paycock.

----------


## billl

7. Green Eggs & Ham (thanks to the clue...)

----------


## MarkBastable

The last one - DL&TLG - is set in the Victorian era: a music-hall star appears in the title, as does a district of London and a kind of zombie. I think that the book might have been given a different title in America - for which I apologise.

----------


## kasie

ah - that would be _Dan Leno and the Limehouse Golem_ - and I would never have got it without the clue!!

A tricky set of clues, Mark!

----------


## MarkBastable

Can whoever got the most right do the next one? Or you can wait until I count it up, which is likely not to be until Friday, as I have to go to Scotland tomorrow and the very prospect so disturbs me that I'm going to have to start drinking heavily forthwith.

----------


## Calidore

> Can whoever got the most right do the next one? Or you can wait until I count it up, which is likely not to be until Friday, as I have to go to Scotland tomorrow and the very prospect so disturbs me that I'm going to have to start drinking heavily forthwith.


Scotland is an excellent place to drink if you like scotch.

I never heard of that last one. What's the American title?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Scotland is an excellent place to drink if you like scotch.
> 
> I never heard of that last one. What's the American title?


Well, I don't know for sure that it was re-titled in America, but Wikipedia mentions that it was 'also published as _The Trial of Elizabeth Cree_'). Both appear on Amazon US.

I don't like scotch, actually. I'm with Adrian Mole on whisky: _If it came in medicine bottles, grown-ups would pour it down the sink._

----------


## MarkBastable

A rough tot-up suggests to me that it's Mick's turn.

----------


## billl

Yep. I know I have no power here, especially with my meager (but respectable!) recent contribution(s!), but I think it might be worth mentioning that, really, if ANYONE has something good, they could probably go ahead and throw it out there (with apologies to the last "winner") after 24 hours or so.

That's just my thoughts on it, anyhow, since we've been bleeding each other dry, and racing around the globe (or city. or Yorkshire.) doing other things.

----------


## kasie

Quite so, billl - I'm sure Mick will not mind - if you have a good puzzle to offer, go ahead, I'd say.

----------


## billl

Oh, um. Yes. Quite right. Same for all of us. Me, as well. Anyone. Right, umm...

----------


## prendrelemick

Please go ahead billl, I didn't realise it was my turn, I have nothing prepared.

----------


## prendrelemick

Ok, to keep this thing ticking over, here is something I shamelessly copied.


Pair up these random words and connect each pair with a five letter word. eg "shop" and "boards" can be connected with "floor".

each
shop
icon
clock
village
side
ring
spring
super
smoke
cream
boards
wise
hair

----------


## MarkBastable

shop	floor	boards
smoke alarm	clock
spring onion ring
super	model village
hair	style	icon
each	other	wise
side	salad	cream


I'm not sure the Americans would ever have got 'salad cream'.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This lot can be divided into three groups of five, with one odd-one-out.



harvey	daddy	alan	maid
shake	party	ceremony	cane	
bag	plantation grounds	clipper	
dance	round	breast	bowl

----------


## prendrelemick

cane, daddy, Alan, plantation and bowl = sugar
shake, maid, breast, round and harvey = milk
clipper, ceremony, bag, dance and party = tea

grounds is the odd one out.


I think billl ought to set one about corn dogs and hershey bars to restore transatlantic balance.

----------


## billl

Yes, hopefully, if all goes well, I'll work a little magic tomorrow. I have to go to the dentist, though, and it isn't just a check-up. Maybe OK, though--and if so, I'd subsequently be delighted to sit here and come up with a little something to alleviate the awful deficit that's been built up.

----------


## kasie

harvey = milk??? This one escapes me - can anyone explain, please?

I thought you'd gone north of the border, Mark? They let you back into the country, then?

----------


## MarkBastable

> harvey = milk??? This one escapes me - can anyone explain, please?


Harvey Milk - American activist and politician, subject of a recent biopic starring Sean Penn.

----------


## kasie

Thanks, Mark - have never heard of the man or the biopic but then, I don't get out much. (Have heard of Sean Penn.)

----------


## billl

Doh! Nah, it's cool.
It was dinner for one again, and so Mr. Singleton stopped by the market on the way home--he had to buy a small packet of flour for the evening's pizza. When he got home, he went right to the kitchen, poured the flour into a bowl, and whipped-up some dough. Soon, he was flipping that dough around and rolling it flat, eventually forming a typical (albeit smallish, 20 cm across...) circular pizza-shape, one cm thick.

It was then that he realized that he had forgotten to buy the sauce. Frustrated for just a moment, he checked that he had some butter and garlic in the fridge, and then went about shaping the dough into a long two-cm-thick sausage-shape. This long roll was then cut into 20 cm long sections to make bread sticks.

How many garlic-and-butter-covered bread sticks was he able to bake that night?

----------


## prendrelemick

A pizza is only a short fat bread stick after all so you would think that if you made it a tenth as thick (from 20 to 2) it would be ten times as long (from 1 to 10) But due to the inpenetratable mysteries of maths that doesn't work.

So.. The pizza and the bread stick are really just cylinders of the same volume.

pi x (rxr) x h =v

3.14x100x1=314 (the pizza)

3.14x1x100=314 (the bread stick)

so the bread stick cylinder is 100cm long (h) or 5 x 20 cm lenghs

----------


## billl

That is correct, sir! Once again, Mick makes short work of a circle puzzle.

----------


## prendrelemick

Here's one dredged up from memory.


An ill fitting locked door is the only way into the room. There is nothing in the room apart from a small table with the only key to the door on it. 

How's that done then?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Here's one dredged up from memory.
> 
> 
> An ill fitting locked door is the only way into the room. There is nothing in the room apart from a small table with the only key to the door on it. 
> 
> How's that done then?



How ill-fitting is it? Is it, like, so ill-fitting that the gap between the door and the jamb is big enough for a portly chap to wander through with the key in his hand? Or just so ill-fitting that he could get his arm through the gap to drop the key on the table? Or so ill-fitting that...well, you can see where I'm going. 

'Ill-fitting' is a fuzzy and unqualified thing to tell us - but presumably it matters, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned it. In order to take a shot at the problem, we need to know what it actually means.

----------


## billl

Perhaps the _other_ key was destroyed (e.g. melted down) after someone used it to lock the the door, leaving the above-mentioned key in the room on the table.

----------


## prendrelemick

The ill fitting is significant. There is about half an inch gap at the top and underneath the door. There is and has always been only one key to the door.

----------


## kasie

Is the length of fine black thread dropped negligently on the floor outside the locked door of any consequence?

----------


## billl

Or the powerful electromagnet sitting on the table?

EDIT; I mean the electromagnet beyond the wall opposite the door, but it of course doesn't matter...

----------


## prendrelemick

It most certainly is Kasie (or is that Miss Marple?)

----------


## MarkBastable

.....well, go on then.

----------


## prendrelemick

Ok Kasie has probably got it. For the benefit of the others, close examination of the table would reveal a pin prick on its surface.

----------


## MarkBastable

It's an abseiling key?

----------


## prendrelemick

You could say that. Just the details to fill in.

----------


## MarkBastable

Bloke sticks a pin - actually a needle would be better - into the table, attaches a thread to it and walks out of the room, feeding the thread through the gap at the top of the door. He locks the door and slips the key over the thread. The key slides down the thread to the small table. The bloke yanks the pin out and pulls it back through the gap.

I have another version that involves a gymnastic mouse and a drinking straw, but it might be a bit far-fetched.

----------


## prendrelemick

Correct. One of several locked room scenerios from the murder mystery genre.

----------


## MarkBastable

Kasie?

----------


## kasie

Hello, people - I'm back.....

Apologies - I posted that reply and swanned off to London for a few days, little thinking it was the right answer. I remembered reading something like it in a whodunnit years ago (Christie? Conan Doyle?) but can't recollect exactly how it worked though I think Mark has the gist of it. 

Will post a puzzle as soon as I've recovered from the trip - all these late nights, I can't keep going like I used to.... Chat among yourselves for a bit unless anyone has something to keep us going until my brain catches up with me, I think it's still changing trains, Bristol or Cardiff, or somewhere...

----------


## kasie

OK - a day later....

Forgive me if we've had this one before - I know I've seen it somewhere but maybe it's just that the cousin who sent it to me today has sent it some time previously.

What have the following words in common?

1. Banana

2. Dresser

3. Grammar

4. Potato

5. Revive

6. Uneven

7. Assess

There - that should keep you busy for all of, oh, five minutes?

----------


## Annamariah

If you take away the first letter in each word, they are all palindromes?

----------


## kasie

You're heading in the right direction, Annamariah - do something with that first letter....

----------


## prendrelemick

Firstly I reckon Annamaria got it, because without her I wouldn't've noticed that if you put the first letter to the end you can read them backwards.

----------


## kasie

Well done, Mick and Annamariah - you decide who goes next.

----------


## Annamariah

I can't think of any puzzle at the moment, so if you've got one, Mick, go ahead  :Smile:

----------


## prendrelemick

Ok then

T'other year I built a circular sheep pen out of concrete blocks. The pen was 10ft in diameter, the walls were 4ft 6inches high. there were 2 x 3ft gaps in the wall for gates. A concrete block when laid (ie including morter) is 18x9x6 inches. How many blocks were needed to complete the pen?

----------


## kasie

I'll just nip down to Travis Perkins - they have this useful computer programme which works out how many blocks/bricks etc you need to order for your project. It designs patio layouts too doing clever things with different shaped slabs, did me a lovely one last year, printed out a plan as well so that the chaps doing the patio could get the pieces in the right places......Oh, yes, the sheep pen....

----------


## prendrelemick

Ahh, Travis Perkins the builder's merchant that sounds like a country and western singer.

----------


## billl

> Ok then
> 
> T'other year I built a circular sheep pen out of concrete blocks. The pen was 10ft in diameter, the walls were 4ft 6inches high. there were 2 x 3ft gaps in the wall for gates. A concrete block when laid (ie including morter) is 18x9x6 inches. How many blocks were needed to complete the pen?


1 foot = 12 inches (1.5 feet = 18 inches)

circumference= diameter x pi
In this case, we also will subtract out the two gaps (3 feet each)

circumference - gaps = 10pi - 6

the wall will be 9 bricks high (each brick is 6 inches "tall", so 9 of them make 4 feet 6 inches, if we ignore the mortar...). Therefore, we want circumference (minus the gaps) multiplied 9 times.

(10pi - 6) x 9
90pi - 54 = 283-54
229 feet of bricks is needed. Each brick is 1.5 feet "long".
229 divided by 1.5 = 152.7

So, 153 bricks? (17 per layer?)

----------


## prendrelemick

The bricks are 9inches tall and 6 inches thick. However this is NOT a maths question!





I am prepared to receive plenty of scorn when answer is revealed.

----------


## billl

One block, ugh.

To "complete" the pen.

And NOW I have to present the next puzzle, grrrrrr. Thought I had escaped got lucky, but... But--uh, well, hmph.

----------


## billl

This next one is really great fun, very satisfying once the solution is encountered. Perhaps you've heard it? (Actually, I should say "twice"...)




> An explorer walks one mile due South, turns and walks one mile due East, turns again and walks one mile due North. And he's right back where he started. He sees a bear. What color is the bear?

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Trick question. It changes colors. It's a *bi-polar* bear.






J

----------


## prendrelemick

He's wearing a yellow and blue kagool.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/353...gy-crisis.html

----------


## billl

That is a great, great Bear, Mick, but Antarctica doesn't work for the first step of the Puzzle.

(Although Jack is right about the way that a single, pawticular answer would only bearly be scratching the surface of the explanation(s))

----------


## kasie

> Ahh, Travis Perkins the builder's merchant that sounds like a country and western singer.


The speed of their service is much the same as an average c&w mournful ballad too - you need a picnic lunch to while away the waiting time at our local branch.

btw - did you know my psychology lecturer? That's the sort of question he used to pose as an example of 'sett' in thinking: it sounds like a maths question, therefore...

ummm - billl - wouldn't the explorer have to walk a mile due west before he was back where he began? Or did the bear put him off his stride?

What happens to compasses at the North Pole? That's not a trick question, I'm just curious.

----------


## billl

grrrr...

(kasie, you could probably amp up the scorn just a little more than that "btw" business...)

----------


## kasie

billl, billl - no scorn intended, I promise....(smoothes ruffled feathers hastily......) And the btw was to Mick, really, about his 'maths' problem, just an aside, not a comment on the quality of the puzzles set in this remarkable thread. Who am I to talk? Who left her brain on the 12.45 from Paddington and took a day to be reunited with it? (It got on the slow stopping train at Newport and sat on the station till I came to collect it, it's taking a while to get warm again.)

----------


## billl

@kasie: Oh, yes, I totally was referring to the scorn that Mick had so brazenly (but disingenuously?) predicted would be raining down on him. *That's* what I was hoping for more of, with no other suspicions present. I was totally focussed on that.

----------


## billl

> ummm - billl - wouldn't the explorer have to walk a mile due west before he was back where he began? Or did the bear put him off his stride?
> 
> What happens to compasses at the North Pole? That's not a trick question, I'm just curious.


Just now noticed this portion of your post, Kasie. Good question about the North Pole! That's, of course, a starting point that would probably indicate a bear that was white in color. And there's our answer. Polar bear.

I don't know what would happen to a compass 'up' there, but I guess the puzzle assumes no problems, or GPS or star-navigation, if there's any problem with the compass.

OK, so that's a pretty cool puzzle, and it has baffled, amused, and caused surges of pride in people for ages--but it was brought to the attention of _Scientific American's_ Martin Gardner that the the North Pole *is not at all the only starting point that would qualify as a solution* to this classic puzzle. 

If any of you already know (knew) the answer to "Where else?", I'd suggest we give some of the regulars on this thread some time to think it over, and see if they can come up with it...

----------


## billl

To reiterate where we are (because all of that might look confusing), we have the classic:




> An explorer walks one mile due South, turns and walks one mile due East, turns again and walks one mile due North. And he's right back where he started. He sees a bear. What color is the bear?


along with the classic answer: "White". This is because the explorer would be at the North Pole, becasue if one begins at the North Pole and follows the marching directions, one ends up back where one started (the North Pole).

However, The North Pole is not the only possible starting point that would bring the explorer back to where he started, given the above directions (one mile South, one mile East, one mile North). Where else would it happen?

----------


## MarkBastable

> To reiterate where we are (because all of that might look confusing), we have the classic:
> 
> 
> 
> along with the classic answer: "White". This is because the explorer would be at the North Pole, becasue if one begins at the North Pole and follows the marching directions, one ends up back where one started (the North Pole).
> 
> However, The North Pole is not the only possible starting point that would bring the explorer back to where he started, given the above directions (one mile South, one mile East, one mile North). Where else would it happen?



Any point on the equator?

No - hang on. I'm halfway through a thought....

This has to do witha halfmile radius around the South Pole. If I hadnt just drunk two bottles of Pinot Grigio, I'd have this...

Mick? Kasie?

----------


## billl

Yes, one of you, please carry Mark across the finish line!

----------


## kasie

Couldn't you start anywhere, walk a mile north, then a mile east, then one south, then one west and be back where you started? You would have walked a square though I suppose you'd have to be north of the Arctic Circle or somewhere near a zoo to see a polar bear.

Didn't save me any of that Pinot Grigio, I see, Mark.

----------


## prendrelemick

I think I know what Mark was getting at before the wine kicked in.

You would have to walk south to a point near the south pole so that when you turn east and walk exactly one mile, you have circumnavigated the pole and ended up at the same place where you turned east. Then you walk north for one mile and you are back where you started from.

----------


## billl

Ah, yes--Mick and the circles. That's right. Start at (1 + 1.5 Pi) miles North of the South Pole--the latitudinal circle that is 1.5 Pi miles North of the South Pole has a one mile circumference. (It also turns out that a 1/2 mile circumference circle, or a 1/4 mile cirle, etc. would also work.)

Anyhow, the Bear Grylls photo was a pretty good answer, really.

----------


## prendrelemick

Thanks billl - and Mark for his wine fuelled inspiration.

On a lighter note, here are some bazaar headlines with a word taken out by me. You have to guess the missing word.

NATIONAL HUNTING GROUP TARGETING women
STOLEN PAINTINGS FOUND BY tree
U.S. ADVICE. KEEP  drinking WATER FROM SEWAGE
LOW wages ARE KEY TO POVERTY
**** OFF WOMAN'S LEG HELPS NICKLAUS TO 66
chilbirth IS BIG STEP TO PARENTHOOD
POLICE KILL YOUTH IN EFFORT TO STOP HIS suicide ATTEMPT
YOUTH HIT BY CAR riding BICYCLE
FIRE OFFICIALS ******* OVER KEROSENE HEATERS.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Some guesses:

National Hunting Group Targeting Rifle

U.S. Advice: Keep Drinking Water From Sewage

Intercourse Is Big Step To Parenthood

Police Kill Youth In Effort To Stop His Suicide Attempt

Youth Hit By Car Riding Bicycle

----------


## prendrelemick

Not bad J, three right and two wrong.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Low hanging fruit stains these cheeks.







J

----------


## billl

NATIONAL HUNTING GROUP TARGETING press

LOW wages ARE KEY TO POVERTY

chip OFF WOMAN'S LEG HELPS NICKLAUS TO 66

conception IS BIG STEP TO PARENTHOOD

FIRE OFFICIALS enraged OVER KEROSENE HEATERS.

----------


## prendrelemick

One right bill. You need to get even stranger.

----------


## prendrelemick

> Low hanging fruit stains these cheeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J




Which cheeks?

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Well, given enough time, all of them.








J

----------


## billl

ball OFF WOMAN'S LEG HELPS NICKLAUS TO 66

motherhood IS BIG STEP TO PARENTHOOD


(these are tough, both of these are probably duds)

----------


## MarkBastable

Youth hit by car impersonating bicycle.

----------


## prendrelemick

> Thanks billl - and Mark for his wine fuelled inspiration.
> 
> On a lighter note, here are some bazaar headlines with a word taken out by me. You have to guess the missing word.
> 
> NATIONAL HUNTING GROUP TARGETING *****. _obviously, they're all misogynists .
> _STOLEN PAINTINGS FOUND BY **** ._Cherry, for instance_
> U.S. ADVICE. KEEP  drinking WATER FROM SEWAGE
> LOW wages ARE KEY TO POVERTY
> **** OFF WOMAN'S LEG HELPS NICKLAUS TO 66. _was the leg attached to the woman?_
> ...


A few clues there.

----------


## billl

"pregnancy" doesn't have enough letters to match up with the asterisks...

----------


## prendrelemick

Hmm, alot nearer to motherhood than conception, infact overlapping slightly.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Stolen Paintings Found by (either pies/tree?)

Cuts Off Woman's Leg Helps Nicklaus to 66 (... not gramatically correct, though)

Copulation Is Big Step Toward Parenthood

National Hunting Group Targeting Women

Fire Officials Flamber Over Kerosene Heaters (flamber, as in the regular '-er' french verb whose past participle is *flambé*? Or the english word *flaming*, this reader's only other guess...)

----------


## billl

FIRE OFFICIALS steamed OVER KEROSENE HEATERS.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Nice, *billl*.








J

----------


## billl

I don't think it's a sure thing. Looks like a natural, but I have trouble imagining fire officials getting angry (steamed) about the particular way people heat their homes. I can imagine them telling families to take precautions. I can see them going to the government or the press to talk about the dangers of kerosene heaters, the use of which creates problems that they will inevitably have to deal with in their brave and stoic way. Exasperated, maybe, but angry? The'd have every right to be angry, but it just doesn't seem like a firefighter's style.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Sometimes you have to error a little on the side of bad punditry.

Childbirth Is Big Step Into Parenthood? (last guess, promise... multiple guesses seem like bad form. Egads, embarrassing enthusiasm.)






J

----------


## prendrelemick

Jack: What do you mean "a little"! You have to rush over and embrace it here.

billl: Steamed should've been right, but aint. The word used has an implied criticism of the Firemen! Which is unusual, I know.


We're creeping towards the finish line. Childbirth, Women and Tree are right. Still to get are the poor woman's traumatised leg and the hostile questioning of the Fire Officials .

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Are the firemen boiling? No idea about the leg one though. Somebody else give it a shot.


Fire Officials Boiling Over Kerosene Heaters??






J

----------


## prendrelemick

> Are the firemen boiling? No idea about the leg one though. Somebody else give it a shot.
> 
> 
> Fire Officials Boiling Over Kerosene Heaters??
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're kidding about the leg, right? - give it a "shot"- Correct!

Well that's every cooking method mentioned except the one they used. Its a mindset thing, we,re so used to Firemen being rightous and heroic we can't see them on the receiving end of a culinary process.

----------


## billl

shot OFF WOMAN'S LEG?

Maybe he then used it as a putter?

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Umm...








J

----------


## Jack of Hearts

No, the 'shot' comment was not a guess.


Were the fire officials roasted? Giving up on the fire officials after this. Hopefully they don't return the favor.


Things you cannot do to a fire official;

You can't steam them.

You can't boil them.

Tu ne peux pas les flamber.

You can't enrage them.





J

----------


## billl

> No, the 'shot' comment was not a guess.


I can't say for sure whether reading it influenced me or not, but there it is/was. Anyhow, it's out there formally now, so no one else can come in second place. Let's see if it wins.

And I had already ruled out 'roasted' after 'steamed' met failure. If Gilbert Godfried isn't explicitly mentioned, then...

----------


## prendrelemick

Shot and Roasted are correct 

So that's that, your go Jack.

----------


## billl

Well that's a rather quick resolution of some foolishness on my part.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

... Well it appears overzealousness has come full circle with the boot. Working on it as we speak but cannot guarantee quality.



Also, would not be offended if anyone else took this turn, if they have anything.







J

----------


## Jack of Hearts

*LitNet User Scavenger Hunt Puzzle Thing*




All users are currently active. All are substantially visible on the forum and all post in at least one of the major forums. Discover them from their 'Custom User Title ' (the little tagline above the avatar), which is given below. 

There is a number next to every 'Custom User Title'. The corresponding letter in the discovered username (NOT counting spaces as letters) is part of a word or phrase you'll have to unscramble at the end.

*Ex.*_ You have discovered that 'Bob Frapples' is a username that is an answer. Next to his clue/tagline is the number 4. The fourth letter in 'Bob Frapples' (don't count the space) is 'f', so 'f' goes to the letter bank to be unscrambled into a phrase when all the other answers have been found._


*'Custom User Titles'/ Clues*

1. Artist and Bibliophile (4) stl*u*kesguild

2. All Are At the Crossroads (8) qimissu*n*g

3. An organized mess (5) ever*y*adventure

4. Orwellian (8) The Athe*i*st

5. The Yodfather (9) stanisla*w*

6. Dance Magic Dance (1) *O*rphanPip

_You Win_.

If you discover the user, let them know that they were not only part of the scavenger hunt, but that you've claimed them as property.



*Soundly Solved by billl on 8/7/11.*

----------


## billl

Answer = "You win."


everyadvent 5 y
stlukes 4u ?
stanislaw 9w
the atheist 8i
qimissung 8n

(I still haven't found who the 'o' comes from, though)

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Well, that probably took longer to make up than it took you to solve it. Hope you liked it, or at least found it a little amusing. 

Well done, *billl*. That's your turn.







J

----------


## billl

It was a nice change of pace, but my internet connection was a little cranky, and that turned maybe 3 minutes into maybe 10 minutes, a fact that dampened the enjoyment of those 10 minutes.

I'm not ready with anything myself, so I'll open the floor to others, but will eventually come up with something failing any intervention.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Motion to rename the thread "Almost Daily puzzles/problems."








J

----------


## billl

Here's one I've been reluctant to put out there, but what the heck?

Driving carefully on a frozen Alaskan road--but also eating junk food and drinking soda while chewing gum--I accidentally just dropped a delicious cheddar "goldfish" into my tall, slender, ice-cold bottle of Pepsi™ (the only drink in the car). Naturally, I have pulled over to the side of the road, wanting to deal with this problem.

I have a toothpick that is two inches long, and I can hold it by just a half-inch at the end, so that it extends my reach into the top of the bottle by one and a half inches. Unfortunately, I have already drunk some of the Pepsi, and the goldfish is floating almost two inches beyond the bottle's screw-top opening.

What can I do to retrieve the goldfish?

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Put ice/snow into the bottle until the liquid is displaced enough to use the toothpick to 'fish' the 'fish' out?









J

----------


## billl

That's more succinct than my solution (stick the bottle outside for a while, until the Pepsi freezes, the ice expanding enough to raise the goldfish to a point where the toothpick can easily reach it, but the fish would probably be stuck in the ice and the toothpick would just dig at it and carve a hole, and so some smallish amount of the chewing gum would then be stuck to the end of the toothpick so that it could be mashed against the goldfish embedded at the top of the frozen Pespi. Bringing the bottle back into the heated compartment of the vehicle and maintaining a grip on the toothpick, the gradually thawing pepsi would eventually allow the gum-stuck goldfish to be pulled out of the bottle. Well, maybe--I haven't actually tested a lot of these elements, in particular the stickiness of a gum/goldfish-cracker bond in a freezing environment.)

Back to you.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

... Your solution is better.









J

----------


## Jack of Hearts

*The billl Chatting Up Women Puzzle Thing*


Our hero, *billl*, is at a classy cocktail establishment circa 1974. As he’s putting the Aqua Velva back into his smoking jacket and reaching for his pipe, two beautiful women, identical twins, approach him. As a matter of fact, they’re Bond girls (but not the transsexual one that Roger Moore chokes in _For Your Eyes Only_). Each of them offer him a fine scotch-whiskey, identical in appearance. Except one of these beverages is loaded with a laxative.


One of the girls always tells the truth. One of the girls always lies. He doesn't know which. How can *billl* entertain the company of these ladies and discern which drink is not poisoned?



*Superlatively Shamed by MarkBastable on 8/7/11.*

----------


## MarkBastable

Actually, we did this one a while back (though, admittedly, not with Bill in the lead role.)

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Whoops. Have looked through these but not that closely.

Ok, *MarkBastable*, have a go then?







J

----------


## prendrelemick

> Well, that probably took longer to make up than it took you to solve it. Hope you liked it, or at least found it a little amusing. 
> 
> Well done, *billl*. That's your turn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was a good one, I didn't have time to look at it till this morning. Too late, too late. 

Same with the coke bottle thing and the Bond girls one, though billl would soon have them both eating out of his hand, the silver tongued divil

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Thanks *Mick*. Going to start writing some goofy puzzles for fun now (it's summer before college and a full time job for another six weeks or so...). 

Hopefully it'll be entertaining with a lovely rind of clever...






J

----------


## MarkBastable

To the title of which Kurt Vonnegut novel might the following lead you?

_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
Four Quartets
Mr Balcony
Necronomicon
One Way Pendulum
The Cop and the Anthem
The Coral Island
The Gift of the Magi
The Great Gatsby
The Meaning of Meaning
The Waste Land
The House at Pooh Corner
Tulips and Chimneys_

----------


## Jack of Hearts

*SPOILER ALERT FOR "CAT'S CRADLE"*


Didn't really like Vonnegut, and it's been about four years since having read it... so this is probably a bad guess, but *Cat's Cradle*? And here's why (this reader cannot make _all_ the clues fit, but an interesting amount anyway):

The scene where the novel affiliates with its title is on a *balcony*.

Cat's Cradle is a children's string game and *pendulum* is part of the sequence.

In the novel, the narrator visits tropical locales (*Coral Island*).

The entire work had the undertones of the examination of *meaning* (aren't the final pages when the narrator encounters the Siddharta-like teacher... it's been so long)?

*The Waste Land* because the island that narrator visits is destroyed and he encounters the aforementioned teacher in the ruins of it?

*Necronomicon*, or some ancient deadly artifact, seems oddly pertinent (major plot point?) but it's just out of reach of memory. Having read most of Vonnegut's work at once really blended the material together. And the whole experience was like taking bad medicine anyway.

No real idea, but it was fun guessing.

Also, if the guess was correct but the rationale completely off, let's just call it wrong so we can appreciate the real solution if others can get it (no points for random luck).






J

----------


## billl

With italics and bolding, I think I've shown how _Deadeye Dick_ is a tantalizing candidate, particularly if we are ready to stretch things a bit here and there, going on my decades-old memory of the book:

**SPOILERS for the novel, Deadeye Dick SPOILERS**

Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? -- _by Phlip K. Dick_
Four Quartets -- _Dick kills someone inside of someone he kills (mother and foetus), much as four is embedded in quartets or something..._ 
Mr Balcony -- _strange name for a person, maybe a nickname?_
Necronomicon -- _Necro = dead_
One Way Pendulum
The Cop and the Anthem -- _Dick = detective_
The Coral Island -- _Haiti is an island_
The Gift of the Magi -- _an unlucky gift. i.e. his shooting ability_
The Great Gatsby
The Meaning of Meaning -- _in a meta sort of way, I think part of the protagonist's story turns into scripts that he has written or something_
The Waste Land -- _neutron bomb_
The House at Pooh Corner
Tulips and Chimneys

Finally, in regards to the last two clues, I can't remember how the bullet got to its victim(s), but maybe it involved a window (Pooh stuck in the window?) or a chimney...?

----------


## MarkBastable

Er, no - though it pains me to say so, given the ingenuity of your response, and Jack's too.

You don't need to know anything about the novel in question to get to the answer.





> With italics and bolding, I think I've shown how _Deadeye Dick_ is a tantalizing candidate, particularly if we are ready to stretch things a bit here and there, going on my decades-old memory of the book:
> 
> **SPOILERS for the novel, Deadeye Dick SPOILERS**
> 
> Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? -- _by Phlip K. Dick_
> Four Quartets -- _Dick kills someone inside of someone he kills (mother and foetus), much as four is embedded in quartets or something..._ 
> Mr Balcony -- _strange name for a person, maybe a nickname?_
> Necronomicon -- _Necro = dead_
> One Way Pendulum
> ...

----------


## prendrelemick

At the moment its a case of "pearls before swine."

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Yeah. This one's a toughie.









J

----------


## billl

I might be on the verge of solving this (or at least feel closer than in my first guess, which was, despite my initial enthusiasm, sort of a B.S. attempt).

----------


## Jack of Hearts

It was funny, though.


It's up to you guys. No idea here.









J

----------


## billl

Well, I just spent a lot of time on something that didn't work out.

@Mark, Here's a question to put my mind at ease, though: Many of Vonnegut's titles have "extended versions", and so, for example, do we need to consider "Slaughterhouse-Five" as being possibly also known as "Slaughterhouse-Five, or The Children's Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death"? Or should we just be looking at the titles we'd typically see on the front cover in largest print (e.g. "Slapstick", "Slaughterhouse-Five")?

----------


## Scheherazade

> To the title of which Kurt Vonnegut novel might the following lead you?
> 
> _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
> Four Quartets
> Mr Balcony
> Necronomicon
> One Way Pendulum
> The Cop and the Anthem
> The Coral Island
> ...


You have given the titles in alphabetical order (taking "the" into account as well)... Are we supposed to rearrange them or their authors (the initial letters of their names, for example) some how to get to the answer?

----------


## billl

Um, 

My crazy theory I was working on has me thinking that the answer might be "Deadeye Dick", because of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Deadeye,_or_Duty_Done

an animated cartoon based on (best I can tell) a character from Gilbert & Sullivan's musicals (that would be _W. S. Gilbert_ and Arthur Sullivan), in particular the musical called _H.M.S. Pinafore_.

----------


## MarkBastable

> You have given the titles in alphabetical order (taking "the" into account as well)... Are we supposed to rearrange them or their authors (the initial letters of their names, for example) some how to get to the answer?


Along the right lines. The authors of the listed works have something in common.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

They all have at least one initial in their nom de plume, well at least the ones that this reader knows... (A.A. Milne, T.S. Elliot, Phillip K. Dick, etc.).







J

----------


## billl

I was thinking that the librettist W.S. Gilbert might be the missing member of such a list, his inclusion providing a link to the Vonnegut novel Deadeye Dick via the character 'Dick Deadeye' from _H.M.S. Pinafore_...

Originally, I was looking for other authors who shared book titles with titles of Vonnegut books, hoping that one would have initials in his/her name, but this was as close as I got (besides the obscure mystery writer Jo A. Hiestand, author of "Pearls Before Swine")

----------


## prendrelemick

> They all have at least one initial in their nom de plume, well at least the ones that this reader knows... (A.A. Milne, T.S. Elliot, Phillip K. Dick, etc.).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J



I was looking at that, but there are some exceptions - O Henry and Hillary Putnam.

----------


## MarkBastable

> I was looking at that, but there are some exceptions - O Henry and Hillary Putnam.



_It was during these New Orleans days that I adopted my pen name of O. Henry. I said to a friend: "I'm going to send out some stuff. I don't know if it amounts to much, so I want to get a literary alias. Help me pick out a good one." He suggested that we get a newspaper and pick a name from the first list of notables that we found in it. In the society columns we found the account of a fashionable ball. "Here we have our notables," said he. We looked down the list and my eye lighted on the name Henry, "That'll do for a last name," said I. "Now for a first name. I want something short. None of your three-syllable names for me." "Why don’t you use a plain initial letter, then?" asked my friend. "Good," said I, "O is about the easiest letter written, and O it is."_


I've never heard of Hilary Puttnam.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

That's either a huge clue or a cruel misdirect. 







J

----------


## billl

There is another author who has written a book called The Meaning of Meaning: W. Terrence Gordon (although a C. K. Ogden is also in the mix for that one, maybe as a fictional author or something?).

----------


## billl

Is there perhaps an Irish translation of his second novel, titled _The Sirens O' Titan_?

----------


## MarkBastable

> There is another author who has written a book called The Meaning of Meaning: W. Terrence Gordon (although a C. K. Ogden is also in the mix for that one, maybe as a fictional author or something?).


That is the most difficult one, so I'll give it to you: I was thinking of this guy. Frankly, I didn't know about him until I started researching in order to construct this problem, as a component of which he qualified precisely.

----------


## prendrelemick

That's the fourth name in connection with that title

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Going to guess that if you unscramble all of the initials in the authors' names you will have letters sufficient to produce:

*Breakfast of Champions or Goodbye Blue Monday*

- but it seems where this reader has just arrived, *Scher* has already sat down, had a coke and a hamburger, and come back twice.


Not sure if there was a method to the 'unscrambling', just happened to see 'breakfast' in all the alphabet soup, for starters.




J

----------


## MarkBastable

Yep - the initials in the authors' names are the component letters of_ The Breakfast of Champions_. Scheh gave the method, if not the answer, several posts back.


Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?	..........Philip K Dick.......... k 
Four Quartets..........	TS Eliot.......... t	s 
Mr Balcony..........	CHB Kitchin..........	c	h	b	
Necronomicon	..........HP Lovecraft..........	h	p 
One Way Pendulum	..........NF Simpson..........	n	f 
The Cop and the Anthem..........O Henry..........	o 
The Coral Island..........	R M Ballantyne ..........	r	m 
The Gift of the Magi..........	O Henry.......... o 
The Great Gatsby..........	F Scott Fitzgerald.......... f 
The Meaning of Meaning..........	..........IA Richards....... i	a 
The Waste Land..........	TS Eliot.......... t	s 
The House at Pooh Corner..........	AA milne.......... a	a 
Tulips and Chimneys..........	EE Cummings.......... e	e

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Good one, *Mark.*








J

----------


## Jack of Hearts

*The Art History Two-Step Puzzle Thing*
Use these overly ambiguous clues to do the 'Art History Two-Step' and discover the name of *Jack of Hearts'* favorite artist. We'll show you the steps!


*Two to the right:*
Cool!

*Four to the left:*
Wow!


Cha-cha-cha!


*Six to the right:*
Amazing!

*Twenty-two to the left:*
Neat!


Cha-cha-cha!


*Nine to the right:*
Fun!


Cha!



*Positively Pulverized by MarkBastable on 8/15/2011*

----------


## prendrelemick

This is puzzleing on a whole new level.

By following the steps I ended up on the Gauguin.

But need to check a few things first, like where to start and is there another layer to unravel like, initials of artists.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

You're a natural *Mick*, we just need to get a good pace going. 

A good place to start is to know *exactly what you're looking at*. Once you figure that out, it seems *each of the five steps will somehow contribute to the greater whole*. 

And when they do, you'll already know that *you shouldn't count spaces*. No, never when dancing.





J

----------


## MarkBastable

Ernst?


(I'm pushed for time so I'm suggesting this without having finished the sleuthing.)

----------


## Jack of Hearts

While that's an incorrect conclusion, your method may be sound. If you post your sleuthing we can see what's correct and start putting this sick animal of a puzzle out to pasture.







J

----------


## MarkBastable

Without looking up the names of the paintings, and just going on those I know, I'd say we need an artist whose name is E*h**. 

Or, strictly speaking, É*h**.


However, I may be a long way up an erroneous tree.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Tell how you've acquired É with accent aigu?

Other than that your ingenuity is applauded so far...





J

----------


## billl

Taking the painters' full names (well, their first and last names, anyhow) as being circles of letters in which the last letter wraps to the beginning, and then beginning at the "space" between the first and last letter and following the directions for the name of the painter of each linked painting, I, well, I thought the last painting was a Goya, and it doesn't seem to be, and I can't be sure who painted the fourth one. But I did get this:

1. a
2. u
3. d
4.
5.

Which leads me to speculate that the poet Jack of Hearts might be a fan of Auden.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

*billl*, swing and a miss. If we were playing the children's game of hot and cold you'd be *very warm*. Between your guess and *Mark's* (who would be *burning up* right now) this puzzle is in its death throes (but it has a few fingernails dug in yet).

Maybe you ought to review the clue left in response to *Mick*'s contribution?





J

----------


## MarkBastable

Well, I was working on the principle that it was a question of counting from one end or the other of the titles of the paintings (from the first of which I originally forgot the 'le').

However, that'd give the answer:


1. Le Déjeuner sur l'Herbe
2. D'ou Venons Nous, Que Sommes Nous, Ou Allons Nous
3. Nighthawks
4. Peasant Girl with Yellow Straw Hat (aka Peasant Woman Against a Background of Wheat, but one could argue that I really ought to find out what it’s called in Dutch.)
5. Allégorie Réelle: intérieur de mon atelier, déterminant une phase de sept années de ma vie artistique


....which doesn't make a lot of sense. However, if I've got the titles of the paintings right, this might be a help to someone else.

----------


## prendrelemick

Thoughts so far.-

I have the Artists and the pictures - though there are different versions of the titles.

Got excited looking at 'The PICnic' thinking it would lead to PICasso, or a food related Munch. But it's all a bit tenuous so far. 


I reckon this is clinging on by more than fingertips

----------


## Jack of Hearts

*MarkBastable* deftly puts a stake in the heart of the thing! The beast has only one little fingernail left. So we have...

*Two to the right:
->*
_Le déjeuner sur l'herbe_ 
(Manet)

*Four to the left:
<-*
_D'où Venons Nous / Que Sommes Nous / Où Allons Nous_
(Gauguin)

*Six to the right:
->*
_Nighthawks_
(Hopper)

*Twenty-two to the left:
<-*
_Peasant Woman Against a Background of Wheat_
(van Gogh)

*Nine to the right:
->*
_L'Atelier du peintre, Allégorie réelle déterminant une phase de sept années de ma vie artistique et morale_
(Courbet)

*Gives:*

e n h i r 


... Which unscrambles into the name of what pre-eminent artist from the *American Ashcan school*?

*Robert Henri*

----------


## Jack of Hearts

*Mick*, you get ten thousand points for your Munch comment. Alas, if it were a better puzzle...







J

----------


## MarkBastable

Please, sir, is it Henri, sir?

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Robert Henri! Very good work *Mark*. Everybody did great with what was probably not a very good puzzle. But hopefully we had a little fun and looked at some cool pictures, at least.


Your turn.





J

----------


## MarkBastable

Put the following in order:



Village Chrome Betty Eric Ultra Turbulent William

----------


## kasie

Eric (the Red)
William (of Orange)
Chrome (Yellow)
Village (Green)
Betty (Blue)
Turbulent (Indigo)
Ultra (Violet)


I admit to Googling Turbulent..... and Betty......to check.....

----------


## MarkBastable

Sorry - much too easy. I should have laid another layer of deduction over it.

Off you go, k.

----------


## kasie

Will I never learn?

OK, I 'll get thinking.....


Sorry, people, I'm going to be rather more involved than I thought over the next couple of days, so if anyone has a puzzle they would like to present, please go ahead and I'll put one in when this unexpected 'crisis' is over..... thanks.

----------


## MarkBastable

What goes blue-red-yellow-blue-green-red?

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Aunt Gertie's holiday sweaters. Her mind has gone but, bless her heart, she still tries to knit.







J

----------


## MarkBastable

This wouldn't be a difficult one to look up on the Web, but, as ever, that would be contrary to the spirit of the thing....

----------


## Calidore

> What goes blue-red-yellow-blue-green-red?


Let's see: A smurf falls and hurts himself, but bandages the wound badly, and it becomes infected. Fearful of doctors, he paints the injury blue to hide it, but gangrene sets in, necessitating amputation.

----------


## prendrelemick

> Let's see: A smurf falls and hurts himself, but bandages the wound badly, and it becomes infected. Fearful of doctors, he paints the injury blue to hide it, but gangrene sets in, necessitating amputation.


word perfect if you ask me.

I was thinking of using an AA map to plan a journey, from Moterway to A road to B road back to Moterway on to a Major Route then on to an A road again.

----------


## MarkBastable

Until October 1998 it was green-red-yellow-blue-green-red. 

From November 1998 to July 1999, it was blue-red-yellow-blue-green-red-blue, but it must have been decided that the final blue added nothing - not even a sense of urgency or surprise.

This, incidentally, is not the first clue I've given.

----------


## prendrelemick

Thought of-
Colours of UK tax discs?
Colours of those fasteners on loaves of bread that tell you when they were baked?

But realising what the clue was - The Google colours?

----------


## MarkBastable



----------


## prendrelemick

Now I thought this was really good, but it turns out everyone I tell it to has heard it before. Nevertheless, here goes, a bit of lateral thinking needed. 


A man is driving through a winter storm in his nice warm car. Up ahead at a bus stop, he sees his best friend, the girl of his dreams, and an old lady suffering from hyperthermia. He can't give them all a lift because his car is only a two seater. What does he do? What would you do? Give explanations.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Have his mate drive the old lady to the hospital while he gets out and uses the old 'body heat' bit on the girl of his dreams? Classic!







J

----------


## jajdude

Have heard that one before. Guess the storm can't be too bad if people are out in it, and that a bus will be along soon. A good day for the driver, he gets to help the old lady, with help from his friend, and meet the girl of his dreams. If the storm is bad now though and no bus shows up, guess he can wait for his friend to return...

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Wait, is that the real answer? This reader was just making up something goofy. These open ended riddles are like the SAT essay prompts.







J

----------


## billl

It's too late now, but I would've probably just driven the old woman to the hospital, in reality. In Riddle World, I probably would've popped the hood and stood around the engine block with my friend, leaving the women inside until the bus came, knowing full well that our freezing feet would be marring the solution.

However, if it really were a good friend (and if I knew he would be a good driver in that sort of weather, using my car), and if "girl of my dreams" meant I really had to impress her but would most likely be rewarded for it (as opposed to her being some married Hollywood celebrity, etc.), I think there's a chance I would've come up with Jack's plan as well, if the situation were there before me, fully real. Too late though, sort of cheap to say that, I know.

----------


## prendrelemick

Yes, the aptly named Jack of Hearts leapt straight to the best solution. He gets the girl and the next question

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Didn't mean to win and don't have anything. Consider it open floor unless you want another fruity, awkwardly designed puzzle, which will come only in the presence of deafening silence.







J

----------


## jajdude

A man commits a crime and is sent before the king. The king says, "Make a statement. If it is true I will feed you to the lions. If it is false you will be trampled by wild buffalo." How does he save his life?

----------


## MarkBastable

This is going to be a self-referential one, isn't it?

"I will be trampled by wild buffalo."

----------


## jajdude

Fire away...

----------


## MarkBastable

Dead easy, this one, but fun...

Theres no such thing as a universally successful novel. Any work of fiction, however highly regarded, however solemnly revered, will evoke a negative response in some quarters. We all have a right to our opinions, of course, and Amazon gives a platform to the legions of the appalled, the disappointed and the indignant. 

So  the idea here is to identify the well-known bestseller under review. The text of the critiques, though trimmed a little, is presented largely unedited and unprocessed, in order to preserve the full spluttering outrage of the contributors. 

(The fourth one is just about my favourite critique of any book, ever.)


*Quest-ce que cest? Fa-fa-fa-fa.*

I cannot believe how bad this book is, and I am only on page 94! It is a pointless, rambling piece of garbage. The movie moved along at a good pace andwas funny, depraved, interesting and horrorfic. The book just rambles along. If you want something that gives ou information on name-brand clothes, restaurants, perfumes, colognes and hair gels and interesting places to visit, this is the book for you. Go see the movie. 

*Oh my America, my.*

After listening through half of the first audiocassette of this atrocious assemblage of adjectives, I hastened to the Amazon.com site to read what others had to say. I was so glad to see that there are others who agree with me that this book is so poorly written as to be unintelligible. After having to rewind the tape and listen over and over to seven or eight passages in the first twenty minutes, I just gave up. I still have no idea what she was trying to say. Believe me, Goethe she's not. And by the way, I get it. He has a weird chin. Get over it. 


*Not all moloko and cookies*

The biggest problem that I felt it had was that if the same content would have been written by another author, it would have been called pornogrophy but because it was by <this author> it is called classic literature. Beating helpless people, raping women, and drinking some kind of spiked milk should not be something that is glamorized, but it should be something hidden with the rest of the works such as this trash. 

*The Classic American Breakfast*

The "hero" of this tale spends the entirety of the book trying to force <something> upon a nameless skeptic. The "villain" turns down the offer several times, but the hero refuses to respect the man's right to say no, and badgers him incessantly until he caves under the pressure. 

What disgusts me most about the end of the story is that once the man gives in, he is simply another addition to a pool of addicts. The author's tragic allegory for the rising drug use among young people that plagued his time period is brilliant, but certainly not appropriate for young children. <The main character> is too easily twisted to become a hero, opening the antagonist's mind to new things, rather than a metaphor for Satan as I believe was originally intended.

*Gin a body meet a body*

I never heard of this book before our daughter said she had to read it for high school English. As soon as the teacher started reading it in class our daughter said it was dumb, she wanted out of English class ,I want to quit school, and why do I have to listen to my teacher read all this foul language including the F word repeatedly. We said you don't and pulled her from the class. Christian or not if you have any moral compass at all <this> is a book to avoid. It talks about and seems to condone all sorts of sin,including prostitution. drunkeness, lying,blasphemy, and fornication. The Bible says whatsoever things are honest, true, just , pure, lovely, and of good report, if there be any virtue, think on these things . You can't think on these things reading "goddamn "245 times in a 200+ page book. Beware Parents. This book is filth ,pure and simple

*...and where its going, no one knows.*

I have to say, with all due respects to the author, this is the WORST book I have ever read in my life. It is disjointed and hops all over the place. There's no continuity at all. The prose is terrible. The back cover says it is funny without laughing, splendid art, a book without tears. Wrong! I am actually crying: that I paid so much money for this. I gritted my teeth to finish reading this book.

I guess I am not cerebral enough (or maybe too cerebral) because I--do--not--get--this--novel. I am always admirous of writers and wish to praise them for their efforts when I like the book, but I couldn't here. I gave it what I think it deserved. (And why does he keep saying 'so it goes' all the time. Geez, that phrase is just annoying me now. That phrase would be okay if it was used once or sparsely. But over and over again!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Save your money and buy something else! 

*Squeak, piggy, squeak*

My daughter brought this home because her teacher forced this book on the class. I read it figuring it must be good. What a wrong impression! 

Some English boys get trapped on an island where they become increasingly uncivilized and mentally sick. Some of the boys are murdered in group rituals and eaten. The unnessary violence in this book is a disgrace. Many people live without modern conveniences and do not exhibit this behavior. This book is not about the dark side of human nature - it is about one English teacher's sick mind. 

The writing is overdone. The author must've made it his goal to use as many words as he could as symbolically as possible to portray his sick and violent fantasies. This is the worst writing I've ever laid my eyes on. 


*The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism*

I truly believe that <the authors> sole purpose for writing this novel was to encourage anarchy, and to convince his readers to be subordinate to authority. Though society and government are not perfect, they are not as evil and as oppressive as <he> made them out to be. He creates a negative Utopia in hopes to make people hate their leaders and to disagree with any form of government. It is because of people like <him> that our nation, as well as other nations, are so dramatically torn by the opinions of citizens towards their leaders, and their leader's decisions. Also, at the end of this novel, <the author> leaves readers with a sense of hopelessness, by allowing his main character to be manipulated, tortured, and brainwashed into following what <he> inderectly refers to as government. Let's try to be a little more optomistic, and work on a happier ending, shall we?

*Clueless is about right*

Best I can figure thiswoman stoll the plot of Clueless and rote a book. Too many coincidences to make me believe anything else. Why Alecia Sivlerstone doesn't sue <the author> is beyond me! 

*Like The Omen with sprinkles*

This book paints a very negative picture of children. With the exception of the main character, all of the children are bad and are punished in cruel ways for their faults. Are most children fundementally bad and deserving terrible punishment, at the moment they least expect it? This book suggests it (especially to a child who might be reading it and cannot understand what "social commentary" is yet). This book fits right in with the Omen and Rosemary's Baby. It is a child-exploitation story. I recommend this book to adults who do not like children.

*Scooby Doo its not*

I cannot expreess how Malignant this book is. The amount of dogs that die in this book is two numerous to place in this review.Spme dogs are ripped apart and eaten by other dogs.Another dogs has both his legs broken and the dogs eat him as well. One dog is worked too hard and when he is too tired to go on his owner cuts of his head with a knife.....Must I go on further?Many other dogs die in this book. This is just the tip of the iceberg.My family is vegiterian we dont eat meat because we think it is wrong to kill animals, so in a "GREAT" book that all eighth graders have to read we should find this much gore? This book is more graphic than horror movies or very graphic video games. Many people die in this book.This book was composed on values of murder and animal creulty.It should have never been published.Some of this book seems as if it was written by a seven year old or a small child who is obseesed with gore and nothing else.



*Compulsive carnivorous activity*

I read this book and i became sick. This is for children????... What could a child possibly learn from a book like this? With the last sentence being, "shes dead of course"!... This should be taken off the market and the auther penalized. He should get another career. This, clearly, is not his calling.

----------


## Scheherazade

> *Quest-ce que cest? Fa-fa-fa-fa.*


_American Psycho_ 


> *...and where its going, no one knows.*


_Slaughter House-5_


> *Squeak, piggy, squeak*


_Lord of the Flies_



> *The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism*


_1984_


> *Clueless is about right*


_Emma_



> *Like The Omen with sprinkles*


_Charlie and the Chocolate Factory_

Not sure how many of the above guesses are correct but, once again, I realise how unfamiliar I am with children's literature (English)...

----------


## prendrelemick

Scooby do its not : Call of the Wild, or could be White fang. (I can't remember which is which.)

The compulsive carnivorous activity: could be There was an Old Woman Who Swallowed a fly. (A song that may have been made into a children's book.)


Gin a body meet a body: I once read a review very similar to this of Catcher in the Rye.


Not all moloko and cookies A Clockwork Orange.


The Classic American Breakfast: The diabolical Green Eggs and Ham.

The Shipping News is an unreadable book set in (Oh America my) New found land.

----------


## MarkBastable

Yep - that's the lot. Scheh got six and Mick got six, so here's a tie-breaker just for you two... To give you both a chance (given that Mick seems to be up at some godforsaken hour to do something to animals), answers can be posted only after you've had your lunch.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

_If anyone other than <author> had written this then it would probably have ended up on one of the many vanity publishing websites that plague the Web. ...this has the feel of a commissioned piece, or the fulfilment of a book deal commitment rather than great literature. As a book this is a massive piece of self-indulgence. It is also inherently anti-Semitic in a way that only a book written by a Jew about Jewish culture and society could get away with. 

Overall a passingly useful insight into a very caricatured view of Jewish life, with quite a few Yiddish words that I didn't know, most of them scatological. As a book it doesn't seem to try hard to do anything other than dump the authors problems on the reader...

...it just reads like a little boy trying to see how many dirty words he can get away with using._

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

During the very short time it's going to take them to work that out, perhaps the rest of us can take another look at this review of _Green Eggs and Ham_, and consider the kind of superbly screwed-up mindset that produced it.

*Green Eggs and Ham*

_The "hero" of this tale spends the entirety of the book trying to force green eggs and ham upon a nameless skeptic. The "villain" turns down the offer several times, but the hero refuses to respect the man's right to say no, and badgers him incessantly until he caves under the pressure. 

What disgusts me most about the end of the story is that once the man gives in, he is simply another addition to a pool of addicts. The author's tragic allegory for the rising drug use among young people that plagued his time period is brilliant, but certainly not appropriate for young children. Sam is too easily twisted to become a hero, opening the antagonist's mind to new things, rather than a metaphor for Satan as I believe was originally intended._

----------


## prendrelemick

It's The Challenge Cup Final today, so Lunch will be starting about now, be mainly liquid and finish around 4 o'clock - later if Leeds win.

I'll wait till then so as not to incur your roth.

----------


## prendrelemick

Portnoy's Complaint.

----------


## MarkBastable

Yep. Off you go.

----------


## prendrelemick

[65 108 97 115 44] [112 111 111 114] [89 111 114 105 99 107 33] [73] [107 110 101 119] [104 105 109 44] [72 111 114 97 116 105 111 46]



ps. Those square brackets are not part of the message, I can't seem to get spacing without them.

----------


## prendrelemick



----------


## MarkBastable

I was about to apply some concentration to this but the sight of Arthur Askey - the least funny and most irritating little man ever to stand on stage* - put me right off.



*With the exception of Norman Wisdom.

----------


## Silas Thorne

> During the very short time it's going to take them to work that out, perhaps the rest of us can take another look at this review of _Green Eggs and Ham_, and consider the kind of superbly screwed-up mindset that produced it.
> 
> *Green Eggs and Ham*
> 
> _The "hero" of this tale spends the entirety of the book trying to force green eggs and ham upon a nameless skeptic. The "villain" turns down the offer several times, but the hero refuses to respect the man's right to say no, and badgers him incessantly until he caves under the pressure. 
> 
> What disgusts me most about the end of the story is that once the man gives in, he is simply another addition to a pool of addicts. The author's tragic allegory for the rising drug use among young people that plagued his time period is brilliant, but certainly not appropriate for young children. Sam is too easily twisted to become a hero, opening the antagonist's mind to new things, rather than a metaphor for Satan as I believe was originally intended._


Oh dear!  :Eek: There's too much reading of personal prejudices into this. I thought the whole point was to encourage people not to be closeminded about things. The writer clearly hasn't tried any Green Eggs and Ham. Maybe he/she should.

----------


## billl

> 


I've been working on this one, but just fiddling with the substitution cipher angle. I checked this guy's tunes on the web, and it was a nice break. Sounds like he had fun doing those songs. Was he maybe also beating the commies with cryptology, between the puns and zingers on those albums? A national hero? Or is he (much less dramatically) perhaps the source for the text of this encoded message or something?

----------


## prendrelemick

I'm sorry I put you through that billl.



All I shall say at this point is that it sounds like he should know the answer.

----------


## billl

Hah, it came to me suddenly as I arrived home and sat down. I saw "Key" in the guy's name, and firgured, "Ask key", so this guy knows, I would ask him, hmm....

Nope, ASCII, is the clue, thanks. (I actually had solved for "poor" already via substitution...)

"Alas, poor Yorick! I know him, Horatio."

----------


## prendrelemick

That's right billl. I'm always relieved when someone gets my clues, it shows I'm not totally odd.

----------


## billl

Yeah, I know, it can sort of feel like one is being rude when no one gets it right away.

NEXT ONE:

I was 8 when Amy was born.
Now, I am twice as old as Amy, and half as old as my Brother Bob. 

How old was Bob when Amy was born?

----------


## Scheherazade

24?



__________________

----------


## MarkBastable

Eight years ago Bob was 24.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Yeah, I know, it can sort of feel like one is being rude when no one gets it right away.


I always think it's a bit rude if one _does_ get it right away. That Scheherezade, for instance, zipping in there with her '24?' I mean, _breathtakingly_ rude.

----------


## billl

Yes, 24 is it. Sher was wise to save the 16 minutes by typing just the number.

----------


## Scheherazade

Yay! Much obliged that you gentlemen leave the less challenging ones for me to "solve"!  :Willy Nilly: 


A quick one:

At a cafe, the first 15 customers spend an average of £3 each. After a further 30 customers, the average amount spent rises to £9. What is the average spending by the last 30 customers only?

----------


## MarkBastable

> yay! Much obliged that you gentlemen leave the less challenging ones for me to "solve"! 
> 
> 
> A quick one:
> 
> At a cafe, the first 15 customers spend an average of £3 each. After a further 30 customers, the average amount spent rises to £9. What is the average spending by the last 30 customers only?


...18?

----------


## Scheherazade

> ...18?


Not the answer I have come up with.

----------


## billl

First 15 customers spend = £3 x 15 = £45

Average for all 45 customers = (£45 + ?)/ 45 = £9
? = total spent by last 30 customers = 8 x 45 = £360 [? = (8 x 45) because (45 + 8 x 45) is the same as (9 x 45)]

average spent by last 30 customers = £360 / 30 = £12

----------


## MarkBastable

> First 15 customers spend = £3 x 15 = £45
> 
> Average for all 45 customers = (£45 + ?)/ 45 = £9
> ? = total spent by last 30 customers = 8 x 45 = £360 [? = (8 x 45) because (45 + 8 x 45) is the same as (9 x 45)]
> 
> average spent by last 30 customers = £360 / 30 = £12



Yeah, that's exactly how I did it, except that at the last stage I divided 360 by 30 and got 18. Algebra I can do. Mental arithmetic - Im useless.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Not the answer I have come up with.


Incidentally, 'wrong' would have done.

----------


## billl

It's having shillings part of your currency that created these bad habits.



Tuna Delight

There are *four* hungry kittens in an 80cm x 80cm kitten cage
Each kitten can eat 100 ml of Tuna Delight for lunch, before getting full.There are two food bowls, each having a circumference of about 30 cm.A kitten's paw can absorb/accumulate up to 10 ml of Tuna Delight.A kitten's head has a "diameter" of roughly 6 cm.Kittens generally don't walk backwards.
Assuming the kittens are in every way as predictable as robots, how can one easily use the minimum amount of Tuna Delight to ensure the proper feeding and filling of the kittens, and what is that minimum amount?

*EDIT: The puzzle has been slightly altered and has been re-expressed in post #1275, sorry...*

----------


## prendrelemick

> Yeah, that's exactly how I did it, except that at the last stage I divided 360 by 30 and got 18. Algebra I can do. Mental arithmetic - Im useless.




I looked at the question and did nothing, knowing it had billl written all over it.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Tuna Delight
> 
> There are *four* hungry kittens in an 80cm x 80cm kitten cage
> Each kitten can eat 100 ml of Tuna Delight for lunch, before getting full.There are two food bowls, each having a circumference of about 30 cm.A kitten's paw can absorb/accumulate up to 10 ml of Tuna Delight.A kitten's head has a "diameter" of roughly 6 cm.Kittens generally don't walk backwards.
> Assuming the kittens are in every way as predictable as robots, how can one easily use the minimum amount of Tuna Delight to ensure the proper feeding and filling of the kittens, and what is that minimum amount?



Yep - this is another one to leave to bill. 

Bill! Bi-ill! BI.....! ...oh. Hang on.... 

Bugger.

----------


## prendrelemick

when feeding livestock a good rule is to give them only what they can clean up in 15 minutes.

However I don't seem to understand this problem. You state each kitten can eat 100ml of food, then ask how much food is needed for 4 of them, - or have I missed something?

----------


## billl

> when feeding livestock a good rule is to give them only what they can clean up in 15 minutes.
> 
> However I don't seem to understand this problem. You state each kitten can eat 100ml of food, then ask how much food is needed for 4 of them, - or have I missed something?


Urgh, you're right. I was trying to control the parameters in order to avoid a certain problem, but ended up removing most of "the puzzle" from the puzzle. Let's say that the goal is to give them 100 ml each, but the kittens won't necessarily be full if they have that much. I'll repost with this slight adjustment (only the first criterion is affected). 

Four hungry kittens, and we want each to get 100 ml, although each would eat more if they could... (Also, I'm willing to be flexible with the answer if a good explanation can be given.)



Tuna Delight

There are *four* hungry kittens in an 80cm x 80cm kitten cage
Each kitten should eat about 100 ml of Tuna Delight for lunch.There are two food bowls, each having a circumference of about 30 cm.A kitten's paw can absorb/accumulate up to 10 ml of Tuna Delight.A kitten's head has a "diameter" of roughly 6 cm.Kittens generally don't walk backwards.
Assuming the kittens are in every way as predictable as robots, how can one easily use the minimum amount of Tuna Delight to ensure the proper feeding and filling of the kittens, and what is that minimum amount?

----------


## prendrelemick

My thoughts so far.

The question seems to be HOW to feed the kittens ( I presume) so they all get exactly 100ml of Tuna. 

The easiest way would be to take two out untill the first two have finished their 100ml, allowing them a bowl each at opposite corners of the cage. then swop the kittens over. 

Allowing two kittens per bowl INSIDE the cage would not ensure fairness and is there enough room anyway?

Perhaps the question is hinting that you place the bowls OUTSIDE the cage and let the kittens reach through the mesh and get 10ml at a time. 

However, this is making assumptions about the size of kittens heads and paws in relation to the cage mesh. Also this is a billl question, so where's the maths? Should we be working out how many 6cm circles fit in a 30 cm circle?

----------


## billl

> My thoughts so far.
> 
> The question seems to be HOW to feed the kittens ( I presume) so they all get exactly 100ml of Tuna. 
> 
> The easiest way would be to take two out untill the first two have finished their 100ml, allowing them a bowl each at opposite corners of the cage. then swop the kittens over. 
> 
> Allowing two kittens per bowl INSIDE the cage would not ensure fairness and is there enough room anyway?
> 
> Perhaps the question is hinting that you place the bowls OUTSIDE the cage and let the kittens reach through the mesh and get 10ml at a time. 
> ...


Great job! You got it, Mick, just as I expected you might. Put the bowls at opposite ends, and guide a pair of kittens to each bowl. They'll each be able (due to the size of their heads and the bowl) to get access to the food in their bowl, but they won't get any more than just their front paws in the food while they're eating. Of course, the possibility of paws accumulating food means we have to account for the front paws of each kitten soaking up 10ml each, so we need 480ml of tuna divided evenly between two bowls, with the bowls set in opposite corners.

Your other ideas about removing kittens and feeding individually are, of course, even better--butrequires another cage or the kittens being held, or some safe way to keep them contained and safe, which I hadn't considered.

Well, there we are. I wanted to try and create something particularly cute to contemplate, but the math and geometric aspects were maybe not as crisply interlocking and ingenious as the puzzle otherwise deserved. Still, its gotten all the attention it probably should in rather short order, so no harm done. Sometimes, that's all we ask when the puzzle spotlight steers suddenly into our face.

----------


## prendrelemick

Hang on a minute, How did I get it, I'm still confused.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Hang on a minute, How did I get it, I'm still confused.


Thank God for that - it's not often that I understand neither the question nor the answer. 

I think bill's moved onto a higher plane.

----------


## billl

> Hang on a minute, How did I get it, I'm still confused.


You did suggest a viable solution (which was out of the bounds I had been considering, but not unreasonably so), and suggested (without realizing it) that an important element (two kittens per bowl) of my imagined solution would be a poor way to maximize efficiency and fairness. 

It's a good point, esp. if one of the kittens is bigger, or there's some health issue, etc., but I was thinking in terms of a situation where the kittens were roughly competitive and had enough room to get their fill. But, even with my attention to head size and bowl size, it remains the case that even the slightest edge in initial positioning could result in a less than ideal distribution of the Tuna Delight.

In awarding your near-comprehensive analysis the victory, I thought I might try to sweep the whole thing under the rug with my last post, shoe-horning on a crown made of my own solution, intending to convey a spirit of jest and exasperation, but instead ratcheting the disaster up a little more.

----------


## prendrelemick

Listen, serving up disasters is what I do best.


[WTDR] [DIAA] [YLIY]

[HMEL] [YSIR] [OINE]

[AYAA] [DDNE] UVGT]

----------


## prendrelemick

Not a substitution cypher or a maths based encryption. A very simple puzzle disguised to look complicated.

----------


## Scheherazade

> Incidentally, 'wrong' would have done.


Because I was not given an answer but had only the solution I had reached myself (12), I could not say it was wrong.




> Listen, serving up disasters is what I do best.
> 
> 
> [WTDR] [DIAA] [YLIY]
> 
> [HMEL] [YSIR] [OINE]
> 
> [AYAA] [DDNE] UVGT]


Would figuring out what comes in groups of four help?

----------


## prendrelemick

No. I suspect I have bamboozled all your Machiavellian minds with simplicity.

----------


## billl

Well, the clues helped A LOT. Top to bottom, left to right.

"what my dear lady disdain are you living yet"

Turns out this is a quote from my favorite of Shakespeare's plays (although I've seen it end "...yet living?" in my online search.) I'll have to read that again sometime soon.

I'll have another puzzle up in 8-12 hours, unless someone else has something they want to put up.

----------


## prendrelemick

Yup! thats right. Born out of despiration after I was declared sucessfull over those kittens. I know its a mis-quote but 'are-you-yet' fell all in a row top to bottom, and looked so obvious I changed them round (sorry Will.)

----------


## billl

Here's a riddle disguised as a terrible poem.

Names found in when school is out
Spring in the eastern mountains
And the bad side of honey
Make which force repel law's flout?

----------


## billl

Since there's some rather-less-than-teenage Brits here, I'd thought this latest riddle might have had a ghost of a chance as given, but I wasn't too optimistic. No surprise, another installment is appropriate. In case it isn't clear, the first three lines are a trio of clues (names), adding up to the fourth.

----------


## billl

While stalking might appear to not be as terribly concerning as it ought to, prostitution and sex with a minor are both clearly considered in a negative light by the subject of this riddle.

----------


## prendrelemick

I'm loving these clues.



Must try and solve the riddle though.

----------


## billl

Rio Rio Rioyo

----------


## billl

BONUS CLUE

Some of the more arresting ideas of Arthur Koestler and Carl Jung inhabited the precincts of this riddle's production.

----------


## billl

Rather than albums of possible suspicious persons, they produced albums with possibly suspicious titles.

----------


## kasie

Line 1 - Alice Cooper??

Line 2 - Aaron Copeland??

But as for the rest - ?? something to do with Humbert Humbert??

I think you've done it, billl - produced one that has stumped us all!

----------


## prendrelemick

> Here's a riddle disguised as a terrible poem.
> 
> Names found in when school is out
> Spring in the eastern mountains
> And the bad side of honey
> Make which force repel law's flout?




There's something Michaely Jacksonish in there perhaps?

----------


## billl

kasie is right both times! (line one and line two are correct)

Mick is definitely on the beat! (correct time frame)


EDIT: (Alice Cooper is not right, but I had Alice Cooper in mind... The clue there, again, is "...when school is out...")

----------


## papayahed

The bad side of honey are bees right?

----------


## MarkBastable

It's The Police.

Summer is when school's out - Andy Summers.
Kasie got Copeland - Stewart being the drummer.
And the bad side of honey will be the Sting.

----------


## billl

That's right.

Took a while, but I noticed some people were gone for a while...

----------


## MarkBastable

A pro. xf abf ryd.p bam. ,rgne om.nn ao o,..yv

----------


## MarkBastable

Would y'all like a clue?

----------


## billl

I've just been taking my sweet time, trying out substitutions now and then. Perfectly content, no complaints here. Though, I guess I wouldn't mind knowing if it weren't a substitution cipher.

----------


## MarkBastable

> I've just been taking my sweet time, trying out substitutions now and then. Perfectly content, no complaints here. Though, I guess I wouldn't mind knowing if it weren't a substitution cipher.



It is, yeah. Well, if I understand what a substitution cipher is. If it means, you can replace one character with another character, you just have to work out the mapping - then, yes, that's exactly what it is.

----------


## MarkBastable

A clue....

----------


## prendrelemick

thoughts so far.

Thanks for the clue, is it ;-

_"Ah allus thought it wor a bloody long way t' go forra loaf o' bread."_

I am also working on the letter R being substituted for J as in Dvorak.

----------


## prendrelemick

Or better still, substitute J for D as there is a silent D and a non existant J in Dvorak.

----------


## MarkBastable

Nah, none of those. I thought someone might go for the Hovis thing, but if it were right, it'd've been a bit mean of me to do that to the nonBrits.

My previous substitution puzzles, you'll notice, have had to do not with the alphabet _per se_, but with the interface mechanism.

----------


## MarkBastable

Give up? Another clue? Completely lost interest?

----------


## kasie

Just confused, Mark - if this is one of those puzzles using language particular to some kind of computing, then I'm lost.

----------


## MarkBastable

Another clue....

I'll kill this Tuesday, if it remains unattempted.

----------


## prendrelemick

To be honest, I've been attempting it all week - with the qwerty keyboard as a starting point.

----------


## MarkBastable

> To be honest, I've been attempting it all week - with the qwerty keyboard as a starting point.


Well, it is a good starting point.

----------


## MarkBastable

Okay - the last clue.


PYFGCRL

----------


## kasie

I can make the first few letters say 'A quiz...' but then the same system doesn't seem to make much sense of the rest.

----------


## prendrelemick

Mm, I had that, but then disregarded it. Perhaps there is a "second movement"? there's more to do yet.

----------


## prendrelemick

Ah, thankyou Google! Apparently there is a Dvorak keyboard with the keys set out differently.

----------


## MarkBastable

Yep - the Dvorak keyboard is supposed to be more ergonomic and easier to use. There's no proof that this is the case.

Anyway, I typed qwerty strokes on a Dvorak keyboard. In Windows, you can convert your keyboard to Dvorak in about five minutes. Then it would take you about four hours to move the little plastic keys around.

So what did I type?

----------


## prendrelemick

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.



After weeks of trying different lines of symmetry, mirrors and cyphers!

----------


## MarkBastable

> A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
> 
> 
> 
> After weeks of trying different lines of symmetry, mirrors and cyphers!


Yes, sorry about that. Anyway - off you go.

----------


## prendrelemick

I apologise for the long pre-amble to this one. It concerns something that happened while I was on holiday in Noth Devon this summer.

The Guest House we stayed in was very nice, with solicitious hosts and comfortable rooms. Our room had a big double bed, two large sash windows with views of the 2 acre garden. It also had a en-suite bathroom, fitted wardrobes, bedside tables, a digital alarm clock, tiffany style lamps, colour TV etc... Everything you could want. Then there were the personal touches, like a chocolate on the pillow, a carafe of water by the bed, scented soaps and matching towels.

The first morning , Mrs P was in the shower and I was laid on the bed reading my book, waiting to go down for breakfast which we had ordered for 8:30. I glanced across to the clock on the opposite bedside table and saw it was 8:50 already. I shouted for the wife to hurry up and ran downstairs, hoping the porridge would still be warm. The landlady looked surprised to see me and said breakfast would not be ready for another 20 minutes!

Why not?

----------


## MarkBastable

It was the second of August. It was showing you the date, and it was upside down. 





> I apologise for the long pre-amble to this one. It concerns something that happened while I was on holiday in Noth Devon this summer.
> 
> The Guest House we stayed in was very nice, with solicitious hosts and comfortable rooms. Our room had a big double bed, two large sash windows with views of the 2 acre garden. It also had a en-suite bathroom, fitted wardrobes, bedside tables, a digital alarm clock, tiffany style lamps, colour TV etc... Everything you could want. Then there were the personal touches, like a chocolate on the pillow, a carafe of water by the bed, scented soaps and matching towels.
> 
> The first morning , Mrs P was in the shower and I was laid on the bed reading my book, waiting to go down for breakfast which we had ordered for 8:30. I glanced across to the clock on the opposite bedside table and saw it was 8:50 already. I shouted for the wife to hurry up and ran downstairs, hoping the porridge would still be warm. The landlady looked surprised to see me and said breakfast would not be ready for another 20 minutes!
> 
> Why not?

----------


## prendrelemick

nope.

----------


## MarkBastable

Works though.

----------


## NikolaiI

She took the 8:30 time as the time to start cooking?

----------


## prendrelemick

Mark: It would work, and you are thinking on the right lines, but still nope.



Nickoli: Nope. I was the one who had made a mistake.





.

----------


## Silas Thorne

Did you pull out the plug for the alarm clock the night before to plug in the other bedside lamp, and then your wife plugged it in again in the morning when she went to go in the shower?

----------


## prendrelemick

Nope.

It was a combination of items and circumstances that fooled me.

----------


## Calidore

Does England cover more than one time zone? Here in the U.S., it's not uncommon to forget to reset one's watch when traveling. Was it actually 7:50?

----------


## prendrelemick

No, we are all on British Summer Time over here.

The discription of the room is significant.

----------


## NikolaiI

Since you were laying on your back to read, when you looked at the clock, it was upside down and you saw 8:05 as 8:50. If you'd looked longer you might have seen the 8 was on the wrong side of the 50, but being so early, and perhaps not being completely used to digital clocks, you reacted before you could see your mistake.

----------


## Scheherazade

Is a mirror involved? Or a reflection on windows?

----------


## prendrelemick

NickolI: 
I did just glance at the clock, where as a longer look would have stopped me making a mistake. But still not right yet.

Scher:
Yours is the closest guess yet. Think refraction, not reflection.

----------


## MarkBastable

You were seeing it through the glass of the lamp. Or the carafe of water. But either way, something that inverted the image.

----------


## billl

Let's imagine that the next smiley represents the clock  :Out: 

It is sitting next to the right side/wife's side of the bed and (this would be important) it is facing the foot of the bed.

Since Mick is in bed still, lying or sitting on the left side, somewhat near the headboard, he has a poor angle at the face of the clock.

 :Seeya:  ...................  :Out: 

Mick _ <--bed--> _ clock

Well, if the clock (on the right) has a plastic domed cover for the clock face, then the curvature of the plastic dome would cause the clock-hands to bulge/swell up because of refraction. Of course, Mick is positioned higher than the clock, and so the swelling is more pronounced in regards to the second hand which is pointing upwards at the "2" on the clock dial than it is in regards to the hour hand which is near the "8". The refraction causes the minute hand to (seemingly) swell and pull over towards Mick, in the direction of the "10" on the clock-face. But Mick can't see the numbers, he just sees that the hand is (apparently) pointing where the "10" would be. (in the crazy green smiley, the second-hand should be aimed at the little eye, but it will be pulled into the bulging left side of the clock face cover.)

NOTE: This is a wild guess, and quite possibly inconsistent with real physics/optics.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Well, if the clock (on the right) has a plastic domed cover for the clock face, then the curvature of the plastic dome would cause the clock-hands to bulge/swell up because of refraction. Of course, Mick is positioned higher than the clock, and so the swelling is more pronounced in regards to the second hand which is pointing upwards at the "2" on the clock dial than it is in regards to the hour hand which is near the "8". The refraction causes the minute hand to (seemingly) swell and pull over towards Mick, in the direction of the "10" on the clock-face. But Mick can't see the numbers, he just sees that the hand is (apparently) pointing where the "10" would be. (in the crazy green smiley, the second-hand should be aimed at the little eye, but it will be pulled into the bulging left side of the clock face cover.)
> 
> NOTE: This is a wild guess, and quite possibly inconsistent with real physics/optics.


Er....





> It also had a en-suite bathroom, fitted wardrobes, bedside tables, a digital alarm clock...

----------


## billl

Oops, thanks.

Still, time well-spent.

----------


## prendrelemick

Mark has it.

I saw the clock partially through the carafe of water. I saw the 8 normally, but the 05 through the water bottle and it appeared as 50. 

I was wearing my reading glasses and it was just a glance, I don't know if the 5 was the wrong way round, but it fooled me.

----------


## billl

Maybe the "1" in "8:10" got warped by the bulge in the center of the carafe, and therefore looked like a "5"? The "8" might go unaffected, but I'm thinking the "0" might end up looking like an "8" if it went through the same process of refraction, though...



EDIT: OK, Mark's solution makes sense -- but how come it didn't look like "508" ? Only half was covered/affected by the carafe, I guess...

----------


## prendrelemick

Yes thats what happened (Only half was affected) but I reckoned mark had broken the back of the problem. I shall be recreating the scenario in our kitchen in a mimute.

----------


## kasie

And just how did you explain to (the longsuffering) Mrs Mick why you were lying on the kitchen floor looking at the clock through a glass of water? Hmmm?? On a Sunday morning???

----------


## MarkBastable

Okay - I'll come up with something shortly.

----------


## prendrelemick

> And just how did you explain to (the longsuffering) Mrs Mick why you were lying on the kitchen floor looking at the clock through a glass of water? Hmmm?? On a Sunday morning???



That's quite normal behavior isn'it?  :Smilewinkgrin:  

From my research I think the 5 was the wrong way round, and the lining up of clock, glass and eye has to be exact. 



Apologies to billl, I may have conceded the puzzle to mark a bit too soon, before all details were in.

----------


## MarkBastable

*Major Edit at 15:30 BST - Apologies*

----------------------------------------------

I went to a Direct Grant Grammar School which - for the non-Brits here - was a little backwater of the state education system in which bright and able working-class kids could be offered a classical academic education without having to cough up for it. It is because of this education that I have read enough Tolstoy to know that I can live without him.

Due to some political positioning that was beyond me even at the time, the right-wing party in the UK was in favour of grammar schools and the left-wing was against them. You'd think it'd've been the other way round. But this sympathy from the right meant that on two separate occasions the Tory education minister acted as patronising handshaker at our annual Prizegiving Day. Her name was Margaret Thatcher. So, as a teenager, I had plenty of opportunity to assassinate her, had I known what she was going to do to the country a few years later. 

Towards the end of my school career, there was talk of raising money to buy some piece of equipment for the science lab. I dunno what - I was a Modern Languages specialist. But I know we had to raise five hundred pounds, and I also know that it was my mate Fizz - a physicist, chemist and entrepreneurial purveyor of hallucinogens synthesized in the lab during lunch - who came up with the idea of auctioning Mrs Thatcher's 'thank you for having me' letter. Our English teacher took the letter to be valued by auctioneers in Mayfair and, disappointingly, they reckoned it'd raise about £150, of which they'd be very happy to take ten per cent commission.

Stick with me. This is all going somewhere.

_My_ brilliant idea was to organise a school sweepstake on how much the letter would sell for at auction. There were eight hundred boys in the school (yes, boys only. I didn't talk to an actual girl till I was about thirty.) so if we could get each of them to part with 25p (this was when 25p _was_ 25p. And it was not long after it was five bob.) we'd add another two hundred quid to the total. We needed to offer a prize, and we didn't want to part with the takings, so we persuaded the headmaster that one Friday the winning boy could choose the music that was played over the PA as we walked into assembly. (Which, it turned out, was the first time that most people in my school - including the headmaster - ever heard _Star***ker_, by the Rolling Stones.)

On the day of the auction, our English teacher attended the saleroom in town. The idea was that he would call us after the auction and tell us what the letter went for. As there was so much interest around the school, we were going to put the realised sale price up on the digital display in the window of the main hall, that was usually used to show how many days the school had gone without any injury occuring. (Or a drug-bust happening. Something like that.) 

However, that very morning some idiot first-former swinging from the stage curtains in imitation of Tarzan knocked over a scenery flat that toppled off the stage and took out the digital display completely.

"Great," I said, kicking the diminutive culprit up the steps to the lighting gantry. "Now what?"

"Coincidentally," Fizz said, nodding at the shattered bits of the digital display, "I made one of those last term. It's still in the physics lab."

"Well, go and get it!" I told him, punting the first-former over the railing and into Row B.

Fizz's contraption was a board about two feet by one, with wires all over the back of it. But it would work, and having punched in the right number on the keypad Fizz had cannibalised from a broken calculator, we could hang the board in the window where the 'official' one used to be.

Fizz was sitting with it on his lap as we waited for the English teacher to call in the auction sale price. He was fiddling. Suddenly, the phone rang. I leapt up.

"Uh-oh," Fizz said, looking at the board. "We have a problem."

"What?"

"Not all the lights work. Look."

As I picked up the phone, I glanced across at the board, into which Fizz had punched 888 - but it didn't say that.

As Fizz feared, some of the components were kaput. What I saw was this.



"It could take days to mend it," Fizz said.

"Hi, Sir," I said into the phone. "How did the sale go? I hope you had better luck than we're having. What did it sell for?"

It turned out that I was wrong about our luck - Fizz and I were very lucky indeed. The sale price of Margaret Thatcher's letter just happened to be the largest three-figure number we could display on Fizz's faulty read-out machine...

----------


## prendrelemick

792..

----------


## billl

Same guess.

The write-up was really fantastic, I guess you just couldn't wait for our highly-attuned digital clock puzzle instincts to dull a bit over time...

----------


## MarkBastable

Yeah. I knew it was too easy. I just felt like writing it during lunch.

What number does Fizz punch in?

And given that his real name was Paul Henry Isley, why did we call him Fizz?

----------


## NikolaiI

Hm I may be missing something but I don't see how you can get that number, even by turning it upside down. My bid is 261 - oh, to say it correctly, 261 is the number Fizz punched in..

[edit] because the first letter in each of his first name, followed by the first 2 of his last name, spell Phis, and you spelled it Fizz.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Hm I may be missing something but I don't see how you can get that number, even by turning it upside down. My bid is 261 - oh, to say it correctly, 261 is the number Fizz punched in..
> 
> [edit] because the first letter in each of his first name, followed by the first 2 of his last name, spell Phis, and you spelled it Fizz.


Nope, on the number punched in. 

Yes - first ever day of school he turned up with a satchel, on which his parents has stuck little gold letters above the clasp that read:

*PHISLEY*

----------


## NikolaiI

Oh, 241.

----------


## prendrelemick

264 is what NickoliI meant I think.

----------


## MarkBastable

Can't see 264 working either. Or 241.

Oh, hang on.....


...damn - screwed up.


Mick, how did you get your answer? I mean, I think it's right, but I also think I set it up wrong. And if I did, it can't be right.

In the right-hand figure, the top bar should be red, and the bottom right upright should be black.

----------


## NikolaiI

That makes things different, then, doesn't it? Actually I see the 792 now. But I guess it does depend on whether you are going to require 6 of 7 bars for a 9 or 6, or just 5 bars. My first guess 261 was based on using 5 bars, but then I checked my microwave and saw it uses 6 bars for 9's and 6's. But then again, you could say it doesn't have to be perfect in this case, as it isn't a terribly important issue.

Anyway ... my eyes have been opened. My new answer is 742. No - 772! my Final answer. Did I get it right?

Yep 772 is what I'm going with - oh and on second thought, I think your change doesn't affect the answer, if I understand it correctly - and if 6's and 9's both use 6 bars.

----------


## billl

I turned my head upside down (relative to the screen) just now, and 792 works. (9 having five bars)

----------


## billl

Here's an image from the first page of results after searching google images for "digital clock" (from my computer):



Not every image includes a clock showing the number 9, but still, it is notable that in the next 9 pages of results, I found no other examples of a 9 made from only 5 bars. The six-bar version is a favorite by more than 10 to 1, I'd say. Either kind would work, though, if schoolboy Mark had to display the number he heard on the phone.

----------


## MarkBastable

So, with my correction of my stupid error, 266 gives you 792, using the 5-bar 9 and 6.

----------


## NikolaiI

Prendrelemick wins!

----------


## prendrelemick

No, I think you win Nicolaii because I'm just confused, we'll call the Fizz question a tie breaker. So your go :Yesnod:

----------


## NikolaiI

Okay - this regards card counting in Blackjack and the problem is from "Blackjack Dealer Error" by ETFan...




> ...
> _But whatever dealer you choose, if you sit there for thirty minutes and don't observe a single error in any player's favor, you're at the wrong table. Professorial types may be surprised to learn this factor is even more important than penetration. 
> 
> If you're in an unfamiliar casino, you may be wondering just how to tell whether a dealer has been working there for three months or three years. There's a less obvious way to ask besides just coming out with "How long have you worked here?" (although there's no law against asking it like that). However, it involves telling a little white lie. I'll leave it to you to figure out, and to decide whether white lies fall within your moral calculus._
> ...

----------


## prendrelemick

I would say - Ey up Ralph, how are you? How long has it been? Must be three years, 'cause that was the last time I was in here!

----------


## togre

I think something like that would work, but knowing this is a riddle I suspect that might be too simple or vague. If not, I'll be mad that I didn't suggest it  :Smile:

----------


## NikolaiI

> I would say - Ey up Ralph, how are you? How long has it been? Must be three years, 'cause that was the last time I was in here!


Good guess, but not quite.

----------


## MarkBastable

I'm getting nowhere with this. Would it help to know why you'd want to know?

----------


## Scheherazade

Introduce yourself as a company director and claim people will receive bonuses depending on their time with the casino?

----------


## MarkBastable

I'd be amazed if there were not a corporate edict against directors playing in their own casino.

----------


## cafolini

> I'd be amazed if there were not a corporate edict against directors playing in their own casino.


It's even tacit.

----------


## Scheherazade

He does not have to say that he is there to play. Nik said a white lie was involved so he can pretend to be someone to interview the dealers.

Just a jab in the dark. Not sure if this is any different from asking how long they have been working there and I did not understand the first paragraph of Nik's post either, anyhow.

----------


## NikolaiI

> I'm getting nowhere with this. Would it help to know why you'd want to know?





> He does not have to say that he is there to play. Nik said a white lie was involved so he can pretend to be someone to interview the dealers.
> 
> Just a jab in the dark. Not sure if this is any different from asking how long they have been working there and I did not understand the first paragraph of Nik's post either, anyhow.


Perhaps I should have given more information. Here's a link to the source article. 

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/...aler_Error.htm




> Introduce yourself as a company director and claim people will receive bonuses depending on their time with the casino?


I fear I didn't give enough information to begin with. This suggestion would probably attract too much attention. 

I should have perhaps said that in this hypothetical problem, you are a skilled advantage player.

----------


## Scheherazade

Is it possible to guess how many games a dealer deals a day? Or a month?

Maybe jokingly we could ask how many games they dealt in their present position...

Again, jabbing just to revive the thread.

----------


## NikolaiI

Well, none of those involve telling a white lie.

Alright, how about a hint?

Think simple.

----------


## prendrelemick

Casino's don't mind naive would-be countdowners trying their moves, so an experienced dealer might hint he is new just to get you to sit down. He might be employing white lies too.

The problem is how to find out how long the dealer has been dealing, without him knowing you're doing it (Impossible if he is aware.) So you have to get him into a conversation about the past at the casino.

you could say something like - Is Old Nick still around? or what's Gloria doing these days? Or if that's a bit direct, start with "Those pit bosses get younger and younger"- anything to do with the passage of time. You could say- I once saw 3 pontoons in the same deal, but then I suppose you've seen plenty in your time." You could say,- "You don't look old enough to be a dealer".

If they don't rise to any conversation, change tables.

----------


## NikolaiI

Good answers and guesses, Prendrel, but you still haven't got it yet. The Old Nick or Gloria ones are a little too sophistocated. They would require too much planning, you'd have to find out about someone (named perhaps Nick or Gloria) you could ask about. When you did ask, you would be presumably telling a white lie by insinuation, i.e. because you actually _do_ know if they are still around, while implying that you don't, but all in all this approach is too much effort.

I liked your "pontoons" answer if you mean what I think you do, athough I've only seen the word once in print. It's a pretty good answer but not the one I had in mind. Your "you don't look old enough to be a dealer" is also original, but keep in mind most dealers do in fact look well over 21, often middle years or so; so that wouldn't work on all of them. 

You have put a lot of thought into it but you're still not there yet. And my hint was too good of a hint, so I won't reiterate it or give another one.

----------


## MarkBastable

> I liked your "pontoons" answer if you mean what I think you do, athough I've only seen the word once in print.



That might be a Brit thing. When I first learned Blackjack - from my dad, in the seventies - he called the game Pontoon.

But looking here, I realise that actually it's a slightly different game - one which gives better odds to the player against the house. I'd forgotten the differences - but reading this article I realise that the game my dad taught me wasn't, actually, Blackjack.

----------


## MarkBastable

"Deal me up a few hands like you did when I was here last year. Man, I made a bundle that night...."

----------


## prendrelemick

The idea of the Gloria/ Nick thing is that they are random names, and hopefully he has never heard of them, so the dealer asks "how long ago did they work here", and you're into a converstation about time, which is what you want. 


But really I would say. Excuse me sir I'm going to try card counting for the first time so would you mind terribly dealing slowly so I can keep up."

----------


## NikolaiI

Hi you guys, I wrote a longer post to this yesterday, but my computer crashed. Now I don't have time unfortunately to recreate it. I'm sorry for the brevity but you have some good thoughts but not quite there yet.

----------


## NikolaiI

> "Deal me up a few hands like you did when I was here last year. Man, I made a bundle that night...."


I feel like this would confuse the dealer more than anything. They would probably just chuckle. It might help a little bit though.




> The idea of the Gloria/ Nick thing is that they are random names, and hopefully he has never heard of them, so the dealer asks "how long ago did they work here", and you're into a converstation about time, which is what you want. 
> 
> But really I would say. Excuse me sir I'm going to try card counting for the first time so would you mind terribly dealing slowly so I can keep up."


The Gloria/Nick idea with your explanation is warmer - it's the closest answer so far. The only flaw in it is that it's a little complicated. There's still a better way. And again; it is more simple than anything guesed so far!

The latter idea is cute but they would probably just ask you to leave. Their jobs might require them to.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Hint!






J

----------


## NikolaiI

:Smile: 

well my hint is the same as before, the answer's simpler than anything given so far!

So simple that you'll all think it's too simple :P

----------


## MarkBastable

Please, sir, can we just give up?

----------


## NikolaiI

Yep I was going to post to the same today anyway. I'm giving it to Prendrel, for the closest answer.

----------


## JuniperWoolf

When did they get the (new carpet/jukebox/whatever) in here?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Yep I was going to post to the same today anyway. I'm giving it to Prendrel, for the closest answer.


Yeah, but, but....the closest answer to _what_?

----------


## Scheherazade

> Yeah, but, but....the closest answer to _what_?


I am not even sure I remember the question anymore...

----------


## NikolaiI

The question was a bit vague, so let's just wait for Prendrel to start a new one. Sounds good.

----------


## MarkBastable

No, no, no. You can't do that. Also, no, no, nuh-_huh_, no way. 

Given that we've put all this time and effort and patience into getting it not quite right, you've _got_ to tell us what answer you were expecting. And there _is_ one, because the guy you quoted said there was, and because you gave us a clue or two to help us get it, and you say Mick was closest to it.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

I think you gotta know when to hold 'em - and know when to fold 'em...

----------


## Jack of Hearts

This poor thread. What's that scene in _Star Wars_ where Darth Vader is clenching his fingers and the guy is choking...?

Oh yeah. Death by strangle-hold.





J

----------


## JuniperWoolf

Hahaha, poor Nikolai. What a debacle.

----------


## NikolaiI

> No, no, no. You can't do that. Also, no, no, nuh-_huh_, no way. 
> 
> Given that we've put all this time and effort and patience into getting it not quite right, you've _got_ to tell us what answer you were expecting. And there _is_ one, because the guy you quoted said there was, and because you gave us a clue or two to help us get it, and you say Mick was closest to it.


Sorry - I haven't had internet access for a while, nor with my job had the time or literally energy to go to a lab..

I'll tell you, but I warn you, you're not going to like it. at least not probably.




> Hahaha, poor Nikolai. What a debacle.


What the...? are you talking about, Juniper.

----------


## MarkBastable

> I'll tell you, but I warn you, you're not going to like it. at least not probably.


Hang on while I find a bit of leather to bite on.

Riigh..g'hed.

----------


## NikolaiI

So, what you'd do is tell the dealer you're thinking of becoming a dealer (the white lie), and asking him something like if it's worth it to work there for a couple years.

----------


## kasie

Oh.




Is that it?





All this time? And that's it?

----------


## MarkBastable

You're right. I don't like it.

Well, no - I don't like it or dislike it any more than any of the other suggestions.

What I don't understand, though, is the advantage it has over asking, "So how long have you worked here?"

----------


## Jack of Hearts

In a way it's the ultimate puzzle. 

And it doesn't even have to be a lie, if at the minute you say it you consider a serious lifestyle change.







J

----------


## billl

Here's one I heard over the weekend:

A guy comes home from work really tired. "Rough day," his son asks. "Yeah, I dug holes and planted five straight rows of four trees." "Hmm, I guess that'd be 20 trees," says the son. "Twenty? No, less than that," says the father.

How many trees did he plant? (Hint: pretty sure it was the smallest number possible, fulfilling those conditions. Five rows of four trees each...)

----------


## Scheherazade

15 trees?

----------


## billl

> 15 trees?


That was my guess, as well. However, the father had planted even fewer than 15 trees...

----------


## MarkBastable

Is this going to involve a Star of David?


Edit: Yeah, it is. I just drew it. 10.


Edit again: imagine a tree at each point and each intersection.




Oops. I miscounted. 11

----------


## hoope

4 trees maybe !

----------


## billl

> Is this going to involve a Star of David?
> 
> 
> Edit: Yeah, it is. I just drew it. 10.
> 
> 
> Edit again: imagine a tree at each point and each intersection.
> 
> 
> ...





> 4 trees maybe !


Well, the correct answer is somewhere between Mark and hoope's answers.

----------


## Scheherazade

Mark, that one has six rows?

10 with a five-sided star?

----------


## billl

> Mark, that one has six rows?
> 
> 10 with a five-sided star?


That's right.

----------


## MarkBastable

Yeah, you're right.

I envisaged a Star of David (first message).

Drew a five-pointed star and counted the nodes (second message)

Then Googled 'Star of David' and linked it (third message).


My excuse is that I was distracted by Steve Jobs buggering up my iPhone with an update from beyond the grave. 

God, I hate Apple. If my company didn't insist on me using an iPhone, I'd toss this thing out of the window,

----------


## Scheherazade

Have to admit, I was considering a triangle (after my initial pentagol failed) until Mark's post.

A quick one:

You are on your way to the market with some gold coins in your pocket; however, you need to cross nine bridges before you reach your destination and there is a troll sitting under each bridge... They greedily ask for half of each passer's coin possession but, being somewhat good-hearted trolls still, they return one coin back.

How many coins do you need to have at the beginning of your journey so that you are left with at least two coins when you arrive at the market?

PS: No word games. Straight forward maths.

----------


## MarkBastable

While my phone is in triage, I'll think about this in print.

So, in order to have two after the ninth bridge, you have to have three after the eighth bridge, because the troll will take....hang on...how's he going to take half of three?

So you have to have four. He takes two, gives one back, so you've got three after the ninth bridge, which fulfils the 'at least two' requirement.

To have four after the eighth bridge, you have to have six after the seventh bridge, because the troll will take three and give you one back.

To have six after the seventh bridge, you have to have ten after the sixth bridge, because the troll will take five and give you one back.

So - 18 after the fifth.

Okay, now i've either got to actually work it out, or - which would be much more fun - come up with a formula that works for any number of bridges.

Essentially, the number of coins you need for any bridge is 2 to the power of the number of the bridge (taking the last as bridge 0, and the penultimate bridge as bridge 1), plus two more coins.

I think.

That would mean it's (two to the power of eight) plus two.

So I think it's 258. It would be cowardly of me now to actually work out whether I'm right by going through the bridges one by one.

----------


## hoope

> That's right.


Well I thought the trick is how u read it ... 
But, Bill when u said in the hint " five rows and four trees each " that confused ! Coz there is no EACH mentioned in the puzzle words when u read it ! 

Good one ... And good job Mark & Scher  :Smile:

----------


## billl

> Well I thought the trick is how u read it ... 
> But, Bill when u said in the hint " five rows and four trees each " that confused ! Coz there is no EACH mentioned in the puzzle words when u read it ! 
> 
> Good one ... And good job Mark & Scher


It's true there's lots of puzzles like this that have a trick reading--it might've been better if I had put "each" in both places (I almost left it out entirely, glad I thought to put it in...!)

----------


## prendrelemick

> While my phone is in triage, I'll think about this in print.
> 
> So, in order to have two after the ninth bridge, you have to have three after the eighth bridge, because the troll will take....hang on...how's he going to take half of three?
> 
> So you have to have four. He takes two, gives one back, so you've got three after the ninth bridge, which fulfils the 'at least two' requirement.
> 
> To have four after the eighth bridge, you have to have six after the seventh bridge, because the troll will take three and give you one back.
> 
> To have six after the seventh bridge, you have to have ten after the sixth bridge, because the troll will take five and give you one back.
> ...


Perhaps you have to have 2 coins at the last bridge. He takes one and gives you one back. (A bit like VAT. ) In fact if that's right, you only need two coins when you set out, as each troll will take one and give you one back. Remember Trolls are fiscally inept.

----------


## billl

HA! 

Just like old times.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Perhaps you have to have 2 coins at the last bridge. He takes one and gives you one back. (A bit like VAT. ) In fact if that's right, you only need two coins when you set out, as each troll will take one and give you one back. Remember Trolls are fiscally inept.



Oh, *^$£*.

----------


## billl

> Oh, *^$£*.


If that's a cryptogram, it looks like you've chosen an out-of-the-ordinary obscenity.

----------


## MarkBastable

> If that's a cryptogram, it looks like you've chosen an out-of-the-ordinary obscenity.



Ah, yes - the choice of an out-of-the-ordinary obscenity. <sigh> That takes me back.

----------


## prendrelemick

Hang on a mo' the Great One hasn't pronounced yet. She did say it was a pure maths - no word play - question.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Hang on a mo' the Great One hasn't pronounced yet. She did say it was a pure maths - no word play - question.


Nah - there was no word play. I just fell for it. In fact, you can _see_ me falling for it, at the point where I say 'hang on'.

----------


## prendrelemick

Right then, re-arrange the following into 4 groups of 4 connected words.

_anvil, largo, prime, triangle,

tympanum, piano, irrational, altering,

grave, relating, cube, intergral,

presto, hammer, square , stirrup._

Yes, I have been watching 'Only Connect' on telly, to play it properly you have to do it in three minutes!

----------


## hoope

1 / triangle , cube , square
2 / piano , tympano , largo
3/ hammer, anvil , ( maybe grave is here ) :P 
4/ altering , relating , irrational 

stirrup .. maybe in 3... 
aaaaah i got lost.. someone fill the blanks  :Smile:

----------


## MarkBastable

45 seconds...


Ear  anvil, stirrup, hammer, tympanum
Key  largo, piano
Number  irrational, prime,

----------


## prendrelemick

I can declare the ear group correct and complete.

----------


## Calidore

Cube, square, irrational, prime are numbers
Presto and largo are tempo markings, and piano and triangle are percussion instruments. Would all fit together under "music"?

----------


## MarkBastable

Ear  anvil, stirrup, hammer, tympanum
music  largo, piano, presto, grave
number  irrational, prime, square, integral
?? - Altering, triangle, relating, cube

----------


## cafolini

> Nah - there was no word play. I just fell for it. In fact, you can _see_ me falling for it, at the point where I say 'hang on'.


258 wouldn't work because you'll have 3 left at the last bridge. They don't know fractions and you must have only two for the market. A problem for both. I go with two coins to start. No word play, since everything's specified. They must give you one back no matter how much they can take.

----------


## billl

> I go with two coins to start. No word play, since everything's specified. They must give you one back no matter how much they can take.


cafolini, good work, but Mick already solved it.

----------


## prendrelemick

> Ear – anvil, stirrup, hammer, tympanum
> music – largo, piano, presto, grave
> number – irrational, prime, square, integral
> ?? - Altering, triangle, relating, cube




thats so close.


you need to find the connection for the last group then you'll see where you err.

----------


## RobinHood3000

"Integral," "altering," "triangle," and "relating" are all anagrams of each other. (Which puts "cube" under numbers. And the musical terms are three tempos and a volume?)

Hmm, noted for future Scrabble use.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Actually, they're different *arrangements*.


Ear, music, number, arrangement?






J

----------


## prendrelemick

That's that sorted then,

I shall have to declare Mark the winner, for getting two groups - with special mention to Calidore for the number group and Robinhood3000 for spotting the anagrams or (thankyou Jack) the arrangements.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

The trick is to let *Mark* think he's won every time because these things are hard to come up with.






J

----------


## MarkBastable

> The trick is to let *Mark* think he's won every time because these things are hard to come up with.



Oh, cheers.




...Four groups of four.

_
mouse rod 
float sprat 
line jumping 
yard metre 
warden foot 
fly service 
steeple cast
stress frost_

----------


## Calidore

Well, honorable mention is certainly better than no mention at all. Gotta give props to Robinhood3000 for spotting the anagrams also.

So lessee:

Yard, metre, rod, foot are units of measure.

Line, fly, cast could refer to fishing (as could rod, but I think that's a red herring) (HA!)
Sprat is a type of fish, so it could go above, but it could also join with mouse and fly as animals. Or it could go with service, steeple, and stress as "s" words.

----------


## prendrelemick

Church: mouse warden yard service.
Jack: frost jumping sprat steeple.
Fishing: float cast rod fly.
Poetry: stress metre line foot

----------


## MarkBastable

> Church: mouse warden yard service.
> Jack: frost jumping sprat steeple.
> Fishing: float cast rod fly.
> Poetry: stress metre line foot


Rats. I was hoping it would take longer than that.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Did *take the mick* get it? What's the connecting theme for the categories?






J

----------


## MarkBastable

> Did *take the mick* get it? What's the connecting theme for the categories?
> 
> J


There isn't one. There never is. Mick didn't have one really - though you cleverly gave him a pun that made it look as though there was one.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Yes. 'Cleverly.'

Hiding all this genius for now. Will blindside you all when you least expect it.







J

----------


## prendrelemick

While I'm working on a fiendish maths problem (not ready) Here is a quick something for our American cousins.


_That afternoon the order came through to fill more pots of salmon roe. Ha! Yes boys! the fancy ones, topped off with one of Jack's onion sculptures, each one a work of art (hurriedly drawn) .

We took them by bus, half way across town, down to the pier. Celebrations are our business._ 


Who was at the party, and how are they connected.

----------


## kasie

So far, I've got Taft, Monroe and Jackson - would the link be Presidents?

Knowing Mick, there are probably twenty more names in there somewhere. I'm not well up in Presidents so I'll let someone else find them.  :Smile5:

----------


## prendrelemick

I won't tell you how many just yet. 

I have visions of people checking for a President Fancyones or Doffwit.

----------


## kasie

Fillmore, Hayes, Bush, Pierce - thank you, Wiki! Now I really must go and do something useful....

----------


## prendrelemick

Before you do that Kasie, you need to think of another puzzle. You've gone and got 'em all.

----------


## kasie

Ah. Yes. Thought there would be more - sorry, folks.

Ok - here goes, an easy-peasy one for a change: all these are 'double' words (I expect there is a correct grammatical term but I can't think of it off-hand). Some have hyphens, some don't; some rhyme, some don't; some are assonances (rhymes gone wrong, as Rita put it).

1 A crooked mile. (3-3)

2 Worn on the beach. (4-4)

3 Simply the best (3-3)

4 Australian Sun Code (4,4,4)

5 What a mix-up (4-4)

6 Weak and watery (5-5)

7 Whether he wants to or not. (5-5) 

8 Basics (5-5)

9 Ornament. (5-5 or 10)

10 Common lot. (3, 6)

11 Posh lot. (5-5)

12 Gossip (4-4)

13 Dance (3,3,3)

14 Wear it to dance (but not the one above!) (2,2 or 4)

15 Raindrops keep falling on my head. (6,6)

16 Dither. (6-6)

17 Puddin'n'pie. (4,4)

18 Select address. (4,4)

19 Falling over each other.... (4,4)

20 ...at high speed (6-6)

21 Native to Madagasgar (3-3)

22 I will conform to wishes immediately, Captain. (2,2 or 3,3)

23 Simply the best. (3,4-5)

----------


## RobinHood3000

10: Hoi polloi
14: Tutu?
15: Pitter-patter
22: Aye-aye!
23: Top-notch?

----------


## kasie

Well done, RH, but I had something different in mind for 23 (3,4-5).

----------


## MarkBastable

3 tip-top

5 topsy-turvy

7 willy-nilly 

12 not tittle-tattle

13 cha-cha-cha

17 georgie porgy

19 pell-mell ?

21 aye aye (the marmosetty thing)

----------


## kasie

Well done, Mark, yes to 3, 7, 13, 19 and 21 (it's a lemur!) but I had something different in mind for 5 (though I wish I'd thought of your solution) - 4-4 - and 17 - 4,4.

----------


## billl

2. flip-flop
5. mish-mash
8. nitty-gritty (urgh, second word doesn't fit)
9. knickknack

----------


## MarkBastable

12 . chit-chat

18. In Brit, 'select address' might be 'des res', but that's (3, 3).

23. The bees' knees. That possessive apostrophe prompts me to wonder how many bees are involved. Which in turn leads me to the realisation that I have never once in fifty years typed that phrase, otherwise I'd have wondered before now. Tell you what - let's avoid it all together and go for_ the dog's balls_.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

2. swim-suit




It may have already been got!







J

----------


## prendrelemick

Blummin eck! I missed this one - are there any left to get?


4. slip slap slop
11. Hoity toity or upper class
7. Willy nilly
16. dilley dalley (spelling?) or shilly shally

----------


## kasie

> Let's see how we're doing - well, done everyone.
> 
> 
> 1 A crooked mile. (3-3) *zig-zag*
> 
> 2 Worn on the beach. (4-4) *Flip-flop*
> 
> 3 Simply the best (3-3) *Tip-top*
> 
> ...


Well done, everyone - just five left. I think I'll edit no 17 to just "Puddin'", because I agree 'Georgie Porgy' fits the old clue better but it wasn't quite what I had in mind.

mark - looks like you might need to be on stand by for the next contribution.  :Biggrin5:

----------


## prendrelemick

6. Wishy washy

----------


## billl

1. zig-zag

----------


## prendrelemick

After watching last week's Masterchef:-

17. Tart' tata'

----------


## MarkBastable

6. namby-pamby ?


20. helfer levver

----------


## kasie

Yes,Mick (6).

Yes, billl, (1)

No, Mick (17) - nothing like as posh - good solid British fare, this one.

No Mark (6) but I like it and it could have been. And (20)? Er, no, not quite ..... but, again, I like it!

So - only, 17, 18 and 20 left.

----------


## prendrelemick

17. Roly poly

and if we're doing funny spelling

20. Likert ysplit 

18. Pall mall

20. Helter skelter.

----------


## kasie

I declare a draw between Mick and Mark - seven each. Fight it out between yourselves.....

----------


## prendrelemick

Well I have this work in progress, I was going to string it into a story - but I can't be bovvered.

You have to guess the name that has become a metaphor or generic - or whatever it is.

He left a (AMERICAN ARTIST) on the pavement
She called for a (HATED AGENT)
My name is (MURDERER'S DOCTOR)
He did a (ENGLISH PEER) on the beach.
She tweaked her (AMERICAN PRESIDENT'S) ear.
Don't (SHAKESPEARIAN CHARACTER)to him.
He was a (FICTIONAL DREAMER) character
Let's (HOMERIC CHARACTER) the speaker.
His stories have (YOUNGEST STARFLEET OFFICER) moments
I'm going to (AMERICAN INDUSTRIALIST) up
Was there a (BIBLICAL CHARACTER) on board?.

----------


## billl

His stories have (YOUNGEST STARFLEET OFFICER) moments

Wesley? Crusher?

Whoa.

EDIT: I see, I didn't realize Wesley's time with the bald trans-dimensional traveler lasted so long... So the answer is CHEKOV.


His stories have Chekov moments.

----------


## prendrelemick

That's a better answer than the one I want.

I should explain that the names I am looking for have entered the English Language as a metaphor for an action or situation or as a generic name of something. 

eg "The patience of JOB" clue would be "The patience of (BIBLICAL CHARACTER)


The one you have answered is the most obscure one. and infact Wesley Crusher's role could be an example.

----------


## MarkBastable

I'm not quite sure I've got my head around this. 

I'm assuming that FICTIONAL DREAMER is Walter Mitty, but if that's right, I don't understand what the point is of putting it in a sentence. Unless that's a particularly literal one, and some others are less straightforward - for instance, if there had been an AMERICAN PRESIDENT called Husband. Or, coming at it the other way, a cocktail called Quisling.





> Well I have this work in progress, I was going to string it into a story - but I can't be bovvered.
> 
> You have to guess the name that has become a metaphor or generic - or whatever it is.
> 
> He left a (AMERICAN ARTIST) on the pavement
> She called for a (HATED AGENT)
> My name is (MURDERER'S DOCTOR)
> He did a (ENGLISH PEER) on the beach.
> She tweaked her (AMERICAN PRESIDENT'S) ear.
> ...

----------


## billl

His stories have ENSIGN moments?

(Even using the internet, I can't really tell if that means anything..)

----------


## MarkBastable

Given that he's some kind of android, and therefore manufactured a couple of years ago, the youngest one would be that metallic guy, so the answer would be _His stories have data moments_. Which is not the sort of recommendation you're going to put above the title on the cover of the paperback.

----------


## prendrelemick

"He's a Walter Mitty Character." is a phrase I have often heard to discredit whistleblowers.

----------


## billl

Turns out Data was an amazingly young 9 years old when he became a Star Fleet Officer (actually, a mere 7 years old, if we discount the two years of deactivation before his discovery by the Federation).





> "He's a Walter Mitty Character." is a phrase I have often heard to discredit whistleblowers.


I've heard that too (although I might not have known what it meant exactly).

----------


## prendrelemick

OK 9 years old trumps my Star fleet officer. So additional info needed..

She appeared in one of the many Trekkie books that sprang up (Where she is billed as Starfleet's youngest Lieutenant at 15 years old.) A character without any flaws except that she hasn't any flaws.

----------


## kasie

? He did a _Lord Lucan_ on the beach.

? Was there a _Jonah_ on board?

? Let's _Hector_ the speaker.

----------


## prendrelemick

yes
yes
yes

----------


## MarkBastable

American Artist: Pollock
Murderer's Doctor: Mudd



...and apparently there was an American President called Pierce, though I don't think he gave his name to holes in bodies.

----------


## prendrelemick

yes
yes

----------


## prendrelemick

> Well I have this work in progress, I was going to string it into a story - but I can't be bovvered.
> 
> You have to guess the name that has become a metaphor or generic - or whatever it is.
> 
> He left a (AMERICAN ARTIST) on the pavement
> She called for a (HATED LANDLORD'S AGENT WHO WAS IGNORED )
> My name is (MURDERER'S DOCTOR)
> He did a (ENGLISH PEER) on the beach.
> She tweaked her (AMERICAN PRESIDENT'S FLUFFY) ear.
> ...


some clues.

----------


## MarkBastable

Th industrialist will be Hoover then. Only Brits might have got that. Yanks don't use the eponym as a verb - they say 'vacuum'.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

This reader was considering graduate school in England but, after reading this thread, realized he doesn't speak the language.

Also, *billl*, your inbox is full and it's hard to stuff a letter into there.







J



EDIT: Wow, this was 1,000.

----------


## MarkBastable

> This reader was considering graduate school in England but, after reading this thread, realized he doesn't speak the language.


First, don't get your knickers in a twist - you'd soon pick it up. My Beloved has managed to, and this is a woman who, before she met me, used to make primetime broadcasts mocking Madonna's adoption of British cadences and idioms.

Secondly, it's not that much of a fag to understand the language, even early on. Most of it's the same as yours.

Third, the flow of influence used to be from the US to the UK, but in the last ten years - since BBC America and the Harry Potter movies - I've noticed more and more Briticisms turning up in mainstream American slang. This is an anecdotal observation, certainly, but I don't think I'm talking out of my bum.

Fourthly, if I were you, I'd come here anyway on the basis that you might make a couple of mistakes but, really, no one gives a toss.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having run my eye down the characters in _Troilus and Cressida_, I think that it must be 'pander' from 'Pandurus'.

----------


## prendrelemick

Yep, thats another two right. I hope Jack takes a gander at your idioms Mark.



I thought I'd been severe in editing out things like " Hobson's choice" , "in like Flynn" and "Griselda" for a more international list.


"Yanks don't use the eponym as a verb"

oops! Didn't realize.

----------


## kasie

? Don't _pander_ to him. (Though the character is listed as Pandarus?)

----------


## MarkBastable

'Fraid that one's been covered, kasie.



The landlord's agent is 'Boycott', apparently. 

I didn't know that. Hasn't been an entirely wasted day, then.


Ah - okay - got there. The President in question is 'Teddy' Roosevelt.

----------


## prendrelemick

Just the very obscure trekkie one to get. A term I first heard on this very site about a year ago and had to wiki it, this was the result. 

_A **** ***, in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy for the author or reader. It is generally accepted as a character whose positive aspects overwhelm their other traits until they become one-dimensional. While the label "**** ***" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labeled "**** ***s" by readers are not intended by authors as such._

----------


## JuniperWoolf

I know what that term is. If I say it, does that mean I have to think of a new puzzle?

----------


## MarkBastable

I hope not, because I thought it would be me, and I've just spent my lunch hour coming up with a new one.

----------


## JuniperWoolf

Good then, because random trivia is the only mind game I'm any good at. The answer is:

----------


## MarkBastable

I would never have got that.

Because I've got to get back to work, can I be a bit presumptuous and post the new one....?


It's your basic group-by-connection thing, except that you need to find three groups of four and one group of three. 

Then you post _only the one-word connection for the group of three_.

Once I've said it's right, that'll give other people a chance to figure out what the other groups must be.

<change made to list Wednesday morning - see subsequent angsty post - 'cousin' replaces 'free'>



_iron, cage, early, cousin, 
music, source, year, mile, 
ignorant, brain, relief, pen, 
entertainment, Latin, song_

----------


## prendrelemick

Yup Mary Sue is right... but I didn't know she looked like that.


In fact I think it was one of juniperwolf's post where I first heard it.

----------


## kasie

Sorry, Mark, I failed to see your post-script.

----------


## prendrelemick

Well, shall I start (fingers crossed in case I've misunderstood)

Pig.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Sorry, Mark, I failed to see your post-script.


I should jolly well hope you are sorry. It was an unforgiveable lapse from the standards I've come to expect. You've let yourself down very badly - perhaps irrevocably. I'm afraid that I think much less of you because of this incident and, frankly, I'm not sure there's any way for you to recover your former position in the echelons of my esteem. I'm not angry - I'm just very, very disappointed.





> Well, shall I start (fingers crossed in case I've misunderstood)
> 
> Pig.


No, 'fraid not.

----------


## billl

HOLD ON, correcting

Hmmm, oops...

This is pretty technical, but my candidate for the group of three can actually be a group of four, if we include vocab for gas fixtures.

----------


## MarkBastable

> HOLD ON, correcting
> 
> Hmmm, oops...
> 
> This is pretty technical, but my candidate for the group of three can actually be a group of four, if we include vocab for gas fixtures.


Don't fish, boy! Don't mumble! If you have an answer, spit it out! Otherwise sit down and let one of your fellow reptiles have a shot at it.

----------


## JuniperWoolf

> Yup Mary Sue is right... but I didn't know she looked like that.


There are a lot of different Mary Sues. Here's another:

----------


## billl

> Don't fish, boy! Don't mumble! If you have an answer, spit it out! Otherwise sit down and let one of your fellow reptiles have a shot at it.


Yeah, I know--but if I'm wrong, I'm maybe just handing out one of the groups of four. I don't know if that'd be screwing up the game, cowardly, audacious, the way the cookie crumbles, rakishly reckless, or what... But I felt reluctant.

"Pop"

----------


## MarkBastable

> Yeah, I know--but if I'm wrong, I'm maybe just handing out one of the groups of four. I don't know if that'd be screwing up the game, cowardly, audacious, the way the cookie crumbles, rakishly reckless, or what... But I felt reluctant.
> 
> "Pop"



I think it's okay if you hit one of the groups of four, because it all adds to the general momentum, and anyway I'm not going to say whether or not what you say is one of them, so it might be that you're leading everyone astray. That's what I like about this way of doing it - it introduces more interference and permits more people to have a go. It's not just wham-bam.

So, anyway - to get to your suggestion that 'pop' might be the connector for the group of three....

No.

----------


## MarkBastable

> 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxPRU...eature=related

----------


## JuniperWoolf

"Age?"

----------


## MarkBastable

Nope, not 'age'.

----------


## kasie

[QUOTE=MarkBastable;1093470]I should jolly well hope you are sorry. It was an unforgiveable lapse from the standards I've come to expect. You've let yourself down very badly - perhaps irrevocably. I'm afraid that I think much of less you because of this incident and, frankly, I'm not sure there's any way for you to recover your former position in the echelons of my esteem. I'm not angry - I'm just very, very disappointed......[QUOTE]

Tough.

(Mark, you forget I used to be a teacher - I can do that sort of reprimand without blinking an eye. You should hear my Joyce Grenfell - 'Mark.... don't do that.....')

----------


## MarkBastable

You'd think someone would revive the comic character monologue with a modern twist, wouldn't you? I suppose the closest we've had in recent years is Victoria Wood.

----------


## prendrelemick

> I should jolly well hope you are sorry. It was an unforgiveable lapse from the standards I've come to expect. You've let yourself down very badly - perhaps irrevocably. I'm afraid that I think much less of you because of this incident and, frankly, I'm not sure there's any way for you to recover your former position in the echelons of my esteem. I'm not angry - I'm just very, very disappointed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, 'fraid not.




Thank goodness, some of the links for the other groups I had were looking a bit tenuous. I shall start again.

----------


## JuniperWoolf

I'm thinking "bird." (free)bird, bird(of song), bird(cage).

Oi Mick, I've been wondering all night, how'd you get "pig?" I can only find two, being pig(latin) and pig(pen).

----------


## billl

Two things:

1) In the previous post, Juniper is suggesting "bird" as a possibility. I'm wondering, though, does it matter if bird comes before or after the words in its group? I mean, can some be before, and some after? (and I'll add "early" and "cage" as other candidates to match with "bird", which I'm sure impresses everyone).

2) Is "Liturgical" what we're looking for?

----------


## JuniperWoolf

****, I missed (early)bird. Looks like it's more likely to be one of the groups of four.

----------


## billl

Oh, I accidentally repeated your mention of "cage"--I meant to add "brain" to the possible group members...

So we have the bird-comes-first candidates: cage, brain
and then the bird-comes-after candidates: early, song, free

It's a category that might very well be a red herring. Or it could be a group of three or four.

----------


## JuniperWoolf

Ah, bird brain! Of course! It's a bit ironic that I didn't pick up on that.

----------


## MarkBastable

You're supposed only to post the proposed connector, not the group itself. But what the hell.


_Bird_ is not a group-of-three connection.

Neither's _liturgical_.

----------


## prendrelemick

I have 2 groups of 5 at the moment.

----------


## prendrelemick

> I'm thinking "bird." (free)bird, bird(of song), bird(cage).
> 
> Oi Mick, I've been wondering all night, how'd you get "pig?" I can only find two, being pig(latin) and pig(pen).


Seeing it was wrong I can reveal- Pig pen, Pig iron, and Pig ignorant I had never heard of Pig Latin.

----------


## MarkBastable

See, the problem I always have with setting problems here is that if they're solved quickly I think, "Damn, shouldn't have made it so easy", and if they take a while I think, "Damn, the problem is probably badly set up."

The conversation at the moment is making think that 'free' was a bad clue - not attached sufficiently strongly to the word it's supposed to go with. So I'm going to make a small change to the problem....


Substitute 'cousin' for 'free'.....

----------


## billl

This puzzle is firing on all cylinders. People are trying, for God's sake. If we each come up with three groups of five, and they're all different, imagine the fun we'll have paring them down together.


EDIT: "Liturgical" is out of the question, I guess?

----------


## MarkBastable

> This puzzle is firing on all cylinders. People are trying, for God's sake. If we each come up with three groups of five, and they're all different, imagine the fun we'll have paring them down together.
> 
> 
> EDIT: "Liturgical" is out of the question, I guess?


Yeah. Should have said that. Have edited prior post to do so.

----------


## JuniperWoolf

> I had never heard of Pig Latin.


Evernay eardhay ofhay igpay atinlay? Aybemay stihay nahay ericanamay ingthay.

----------


## MarkBastable

Here's a little side question, the answer to which I haven't verified but which sounds true. (In other words, I'd like it to be.)


Only one fully-functional spoken language was invented in the twentieth century. What was it? (And it's not Esperanto.)

----------


## billl

> Here's a little side question, the answer to which I haven't verified but which sounds true. (In other words, I'd like it to be.)
> 
> 
> Only one fully-functional spoken language was invented in the twentieth century. What was it? (And it's not Esperanto.)


gotta be Klingon, right?

To be, or not to be...

----------


## MarkBastable

> gotta be Klingon, right?
> 
> To be, or not to be...


Yeah - isn't that brilliant?

----------


## Link

What the ****

----------


## billl

I saw a dictionary on sale recently--no way am I going to learn the language, but I still think I should've picked it up, oh well.

----------


## billl

Two Things:

1) I'm still wondering if there's a rule about word position. For example, could "bird" form a group including both "bird brain" and "early bird"?

2) Is "Country" responsible for the group of three?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Two Things:
> 
> 1) I'm still wondering if there's a rule about word position. For example, could "bird" form a group including both "bird brain" and "early bird"?
> 
> 2) Is "Country" responsible for the group of three?




Yes.

And yes. (Smattering of applause.)

So - if 'country' is the group of three connector, what are the other three connectors for the groups of four?

----------


## prendrelemick

Ok. Billl has "country."

everybody has " bird "

so can I suggest "Light" for the next group.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Ok. Billl has "country."
> 
> everybody has " bird "
> 
> so can I suggest "Light" for the next group.


Yep...

----------


## prendrelemick

> Evernay eardhay ofhay igpay atinlay? Aybemay stihay nahay ericanamay ingthay.


agI hagavage hageagard agof vagulgagar Lagatagin.

----------


## MarkBastable

So to sum up...


_Pig_ - iron, ignorant, pen, Latin, 

_Bird_ - cage, early, brain, song 

_Light_ - year, source, relief, entertainment,

_Country_ - cousin, mile, music


I had it as 'birdsong' - but i guess 'song bird' will do.



Anyway, bill got 'country' so he's next up. Thanks to all for playing.

----------


## billl

OK, I'm on the case. (For me, "pig" was the more impressive discovery/puzzle-piece, though.)

----------


## JuniperWoolf

For me it was "light." I never would have gotten "light entertainment" or "light relief," I've never even heard the latter term. Nor do I know what a "pig iron" is.

----------


## billl

OK, same type of puzzle that Mark did: These words can be grouped together (based on a shared connection to some other term, that you must discover for each group) in three groups of four, and one group of three.

We'll begin by looking for the group of three, and see who finds it first.

way, right, record, reverse
rain, wide, change, new
level, under, birth, real
log, camera, sesame


(NOTE: I've never made one of these before. Don't know about pitfalls, or what might be too hard... Is it really easy to make them near-impossible/unfair? Because I was shooting for something pretty difficult.)

----------


## Calidore

Brain's foggy because it's late, but I see "open sesame" and "open wide" (or "wide open") for starters.

----------


## prendrelemick

I suspect it is us Brits' turn to be bamboozled.

I have 3 groups of 3 so far.

----------


## MarkBastable

...Sea?

----------


## billl

> ...Sea?


No, sorry. 

(Well, it isn't what I had in mind, that is--I guess, if you could come up with good candidates for the three groups of four to go along with it, you could go ahead and provide those as well. I think it would be a pretty amazing coincidence, though--more likely there'd be trouble finding good fits...)

----------


## billl

It's the weekend. I'm hesitant to provide any clues just yet, since people might only barely have started. However, if one or two of you are really working on it, but having no luck, I could maybe give a clue. Just take a few wild guess or something...

Otherwise, I'll consider going the clue route no sooner than Monday, maybe Tuesday (in the U.S.)--if it turns out people really aren't making any progress.

----------


## prendrelemick

How about "deal" for the three?

Other wild guesses to follow.

----------


## billl

"deal"?

Intriguing.... but no.

----------


## iamnobody

My wild guess is...water.

----------


## billl

ooooh! Y- 

No, I'm sorry.

----------


## billl

> My wild guess is...water.


I repeat--this is NOT the group of three, but a great guess, nonetheless.

----------


## JuniperWoolf

Live?

----------


## iamnobody

Time?

----------


## prendrelemick

I have water as a four, I also have a couple of other "groups", but until you get them all you know they're probably not quite right.

----------


## billl

Sorry, Juniper and iamnobody!

----------


## prendrelemick

perhaps "angle" is a three (though it could be a four if wide goes with...)

----------


## billl

> perhaps "angle" is a three (though it could be a four if wide goes with...)


not a three!

----------


## billl

OK, HERE IS A LAME HINT, NOT REALLY A HINT EVEN, JUST CLEANING UP AND CLARIFYING:

No one has guessed the "group of three", however *two of the "groups of four"* have been discovered. Mark was wrong about "sea", but iamnobody (confirmed by Mick) was right about *"water"*. Mick got the one I thought would be toughest: *"angle"*.

----------


## prendrelemick

Ok another guess, "World" but that would leave a very dispirate last group.

----------


## billl

OH! So very close, but... No, I'm sorry, Mick--not a three!

----------


## JuniperWoolf

Was he REALLY close, or are you just saying that to give us false hope?

----------


## billl

"Star Wars--A New Hope"... Is that the sort of clue you are looking for, Juniper? Then, yes, it was that close when he guessed "world".

----------


## prendrelemick

> OK, same type of puzzle that Mark did: These words can be grouped together (based on a shared connection to some other term, that you must discover for each group) in three groups of four, and one group of three.
> 
> We'll begin by looking for the group of three, and see who finds it first.
> 
> way, right, record, reverse
> rain, wide, change, new
> level, under, birth, real
> log, camera, sesame
> 
> ...


Ok time to share I think.

WATER. way, level, birth, under.
ANGLE. right, reverse, wide, camera. 

perhaps someone has different groups?

then, WORLD, (wrong but close) real, new, record,

That leaves. sesame, rain, change, and log. HOWEVER - my groups obviously have mistakes in them, so what has anybody else got?

Am I right in thinking "Sesame" can only have - open, close, bun, street or seed. 

And "Log" can't have too many connections either -jam, captain's, pine, split, book, ship's, yule, before we delve in to the scatalogical.

EDIT of course. RAIN water I'm an idiot!

----------


## MarkBastable

I was pretty sure about 'world' too. 

Incidentally, 'log' could be part of the 'water' group, which would free up one of those. I'd take 'birth' out.

And, while I'm at it, I've got a two-er - sesame oil, oil change. If I knew more about cars, I could convince myself that what a dipstick does is check the oil level. Which, if 'log' went with 'water' would give 


_oil_  sesame, change, level
_angle_ camera reverse right wide
_water_ log rain, under, birth



and a remaining four of:

way, record, new, real


which brings us back to 'world', if we can offload 'way' into the probably-not-oil group.






> Ok time to share I think.
> 
> WATER. way, level, birth, under.
> ANGLE. right, reverse, wide, camera. 
> 
> perhaps someone has different groups?
> 
> then, WORLD, (wrong but close) real, new, record,
> 
> ...

----------


## billl

Wow, Mark--I got lost in the edits there, and just checked back to see that you almost immediately came up with a lot of further ideas. This thing is VERY close to being solved.

----------


## JuniperWoolf

Is the group of three connection not "oil," then?

----------


## billl

> Is the group of three connection not "oil," then?


That's right--OIL along with WATER, ANGLE and WORLD.

Who wins?

----------


## JuniperWoolf

I think it'd be Mark, he's the one who identified the group of three.

----------


## MarkBastable

So it's 'underworld' and 'waterway'?


I'm sure you phrased it carefully*, and I should go back and look, but I definitely got the impression that 'world' was wrong.


*Yeah - you said 'not a three'. Which it isn't.

----------


## MarkBastable

These places have something in common. It's not something you have to be British to know. You don't even have to know where the places are. 

I want you to give me another place that could make the list - there are five or six candidates... But don't say _why_ you think it qualifies, because then we can keep it going, by adding your right answer to the list. If you're wrong, I'll say so and then you can say what the thought process was, which'll be informative in itself.



_Bishopsgate
Ukraine
Tucson
Gibraltar 
The Isle of Wight
??????????_

----------


## prendrelemick

Blackburn.

----------


## MarkBastable

God, I hate you.

So now we have....


Bishopsgate
Ukraine
Tucson
Gibraltar 
The Isle of Wight
Blackburn


Anyone else like to add one, although Mick has won, obviously? I just thought this was too good a puzzle to kill as soon as someone (my money was indeed on Mick) got it right.

----------


## MarkBastable

I can see how the thrill might be gone, now Mick's won, so I'll give a bit of context for each place to help things along, and if no-one's showing any interest by the weekend, I'll kill it.

Bishopsgate - the scene of spectacular world-challenging feats
Ukraine - where the women are far superior to their Occidental equivalents
Tucson - hometown of a traveller bound for greener pastures
Gibraltar - convenient because of its proximity to Spain
The Isle of Wight - good place for a self-catering holiday 
Blackburn - subject of a void survey

----------


## prendrelemick

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...de-solved.html

Meanwhile, MI5 could be approaching us litnet puzzlers very soon.

----------


## Basil

> Anyone else like to add one, although Mick has won, obviously?


The Black Hills of Dakota.

For some reason, I needed Mick's contribution in order to make the connection. I'm very annoyed at myself for not solving it from the original list.

----------


## MarkBastable

> The Black Hills of Dakota.
> 
> For some reason, I needed Mick's contribution in order to make the connection. I'm very annoyed at myself for not solving it from the original list.


I'm rather glad you're annoyed.

But - yes - the Black something Hills of Dakota qualify. We could get picky about what's precisely the right phrase.

----------


## MarkBastable

_The celebrated Mr K performs his feats on Saturday at Bishopsgate.

The Ukraine girls really knock me out - they leave the West behind.

Jojo left his home in Tucson, Arizona for some California grass.

You can get married in Gibraltar, near Spain. 

Every summer we could rent a cottage in the The Isle of Wight, if it's not too dear. 

...ten thousand holes in Blackburn, Lancashire._


Mick's go.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Come and keep your comrade warm!!

... d'oh. Missed it. A little slow. Just like the elementary school counselor predicted.






J

----------


## billl

> _The celebrated Mr K performs his feats on Saturday at Bishopsgate.
> 
> The Ukraine girls really knock me out - they leave the West behind.
> 
> Jojo left his home in Tucson, Arizona for some California grass.
> 
> You can get married in Gibraltar, near Spain. 
> 
> Every summer we could rent a cottage in the The Isle of Wight, if it's not too dear. 
> ...



I absolutely SWORE to myself that I would look at this band before doing anything else upon the arrival of a MarkBastable puzzle. Won't get fooled again!

----------


## prendrelemick

Now, I have a fiendishly simple cypher that is so ridiculous I shall wait till I'm emboldened with drink to post it. 

Meanwhile here are some more of those double sounding almost matching rhyming words. I think we should call them "Kasies"

1. Angry pattern 5/5 
2. Globe trotters 3/3 
3.anyhow, anywhere  5/5 
4. sounds very faithful 2/2 
5 slippery Richard 6/5 
6 A con 5/5 
7 hurry up 4/4 
8 Gossip 6/6 
9 A thin man 4/3 
10 Lovely and funny 3/3 
11 40's style 4/4 
12 Girls top 4/4 
13 The best TV 5/4 
14 Thankyou ma'm 4/3 
15 many flavours 5/6 
16 daft william 5/5 
17 Lit genre 3/2 
18 youngster running free 4/5 
19 Get a move on Poppins 4/4 
20 card game 5/4 
21 An expert 3/4 
22 South African tribe 9 
23 too soft 7/7
24Scared 4/6 
25 I can't I can't I'm sick 4/4 
26 Ian dury's brainy man 6/6 
27 hand signals 3/3 
28 one legged 3/3

----------


## Jack of Hearts

This reader has an eye for low hanging fruit. Thank you, public education!

5 tricky dick

15 ample sample

16 wills skill

21 hot shot

----------


## MarkBastable

5 tricky dicky
7 chop chop 
8 tittle tattle 
9 slim jim 
12 boob tube 
14 wham bam 
15 tutti frutti 
16 silly billy 
17 sci fi 
20 black jack 
22 hottentot 
26 clever trevor 
27 tic tac

__________________

----------


## billl

18 wild child
22 [strike]shaka-zulu[/strike]
28 peg leg

----------


## prendrelemick

Well, that's shot down most of them!


Mark's are all right

billl and Jack have two each

----------


## kasie

Oh! Fame at last! How honoured I am, Mick. I'm not joining in, however, as I'm dropping off the edge of the planet on Sunday (a little 'holiday' courtesy of the NHS) and just haven't the time atm.

----------


## prendrelemick

Good luck with that Kasie, Watch out for those medical students!

----------


## MarkBastable

1. criss cross ?

----------


## prendrelemick

> This reader has an eye for low hanging fruit. Thank you, public education!
> 
> 5 tricky dick
> 
> 15 ample sample
> 
> 16 wills skill
> 
> 21 hot shot




Hang on a minute Jack, Public Schools are where all the rich kids go in dear old England.


Criss cross is right.

----------


## kasie

Thanks, Mick - chance would be a fine thing!

----------


## prendrelemick

> Now, I have a fiendishly simple cypher that is so ridiculous I shall wait till I'm emboldened with drink to post it. 
> 
> Meanwhile here are some more of those double sounding almost matching rhyming words. I think we should call them "Kasies" (Or Kasie-wasies)
> 
> 1. Angry pattern 5/5 CRISS CROSS 
> 2. Globe trotters' collection of fast planes 3/3 JET SET 
> 3.Bill does it anyhow, anywhere 5/5 WILLY NILLY 
> 4. sounds stratospherecally faithful 2/2 
> 5 slippery Richard 6/5 TRICKY DICKY 
> ...



Nearly there, I've extended a few clues

----------


## MarkBastable

11. Zoot suit

----------


## JuniperWoolf

2. Dream Team

----------


## MarkBastable

13. Prime time
19. spit spot

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

3. Willy Nilly

----------


## prendrelemick

Yes to all those except Dream Team - which I would've had if I'd've thought of it.


more clue extensions above

----------


## MarkBastable

2.jet set
10.rom com

----------


## prendrelemick

Yes. only 4 to go

6. talking up a con, selling it to the Mark. Informal. n. 1. Nonsense; humbug. 2. A deception; a swindle. 4/4
23. Too soft, mushy to the touch. 7/7
24. Sounds like Greek Goddess is feeling a tremor of fear. 6/7 (there is some leeway in the spelling here)
25. I can't, I can't I have a fruity disease. 8 (sorry not 4/4 )

----------


## MarkBastable

> 25. I can't, I can't I have a fruity disease. 8 (sorry not 4/4 )


I can't find any way to make beriberi work for this.

----------


## prendrelemick

"Beriberi" Translates from the native language where the disease was first documented (Singhalese) as "I can't I can't". ( According to University Challenge t'other week.)

and it sounds a bit fruity!

----------


## MarkBastable

I'll claim that then.

----------


## JuniperWoolf

23. Ooey gooey?

----------


## MarkBastable

24. afro-dightey 

(=frighty. Hellenic rhyming slang, with allusion to what happens to your hair when you're really terrified)

----------


## prendrelemick

You see, put the work in and you get the rewards! 

Only not in this case. Both wrong.




I think I shall reveal the answers tonight, if no more guesses are forthcoming.

----------


## prendrelemick

flim flam
squishy squashy
heebe jeebies

----------


## JuniperWoolf

Damn, I was going to say squishy squashy.

*edit* now _there's_ a sentence you don't hear very often.

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

Could 25 be Lemmon Lime? (Lyme disease)

----------


## MarkBastable

I've tried to come up with something fiendish to get us to Christmas at least. It's so difficult to judge whether one's made it too hard or too easy.

Ready? This might need some lateral thinking, some internet research and some cooperation.

Each of these clues - some of which are straightforward and some of which are a bit cryptic - leads to an answer. The answers form four groups of three, with one over. What is the odd answer?

1. An impromptu gathering to lose the smog.
2. The state of swamp cabbage. 
3. Girl told to let her hair down, regardless of her father's occupation. 
4. "I’m the hero," he says lassitudinously. 
5. She was evilly winked at by a snake of a guy.
6. "Will you be my friend?" is his spirited request.
7. Once tipped on Wilshire and North Vine. 
8. Flighty Florence and Myrtle.
9. "Good grief!" he says roundly.
10. His opening line: _It was a dark and stormy night..._ 
11. A tempting metaphorical girl heading west.
12. A lopazoo on the coast. 
13. A southern girl with two left feet.

----------


## MarkBastable

Have I made this so difficult that no one knows where to start?

----------


## Jack of Hearts

No, no... just savoring the image of swamp cabbage. Which apparently is a real thing and not a rude euphemism.






J

----------


## prendrelemick

Must clear my mind of trouser snake imagery with number 5. Then I may be able to progress.

----------


## Scheherazade

> 1. An impromptu gathering to lose the smog.
> 2. The state of swamp cabbage. 
> 3. Girl told to let her hair down, regardless of her father's occupation. 
> 4. "Im the hero," he says lassitudinously. 
> 5. She was evilly winked at by a snake of a guy.
> 6. "Will you be my friend?" is his spirited request.
> 7. Once tipped on Wilshire and North Vine. 
> 8. Flighty Florence and Myrtle.
> 9. "Good grief!" he says roundly.
> ...


3. Rapunzel?

9. Charlie Brown?

10. Snoopy?

I feel there is something about peanuts and Florida in there but no time to google.

----------


## Jack of Hearts

Oh lord. Hahahaha


10. Edward Bulwer-Lytton?

This reader has no idea about any of the others, but then again he's pretty stupid. So you've failed to make this puzzle accessible to stupid people.






J



EDIT: Is 'Florida' the state of swamp cabbage?

----------


## MarkBastable

I don't want to give affirmatives or negatives as you go along, but just to get things started I will say that Scheh is heading in the right direction with a couple of hers.

I'll also say that where the clue is essentially a quote, I tried to rephrase the question in such a way that you couldn't just Google what I'd typed - you'd have to re-cast it if you were going to search on it. So if I wanted you to get to 'Jude', the clue might be _He's advised that things'll be made better if he sings a sad song_.

----------


## Scheherazade

Something to do with hurricanes?

----------


## prendrelemick

In the spirit of sharing we also may have Charleston, Casper, Eve, Bird, Busta Rhymes and many more possabilities

Is the temptress Delilah? = Repunzel = Hair? Who knows its early days

----------


## Basil

Swamp cabbage (#2) is another term for _sabal palmetto_, the state tree of both Florida and South Carolina; however, it is South Carolina that is known as "the Palmetto State." Also, as Mick pointed out, #12 is likely to be Charleston, a South Carolinian city. And Florence and Myrtle (#8) are also the names of cities in South Carolina.

I'm guessing #3 isn't Rapunzel, but the name of a girl mentioned in a song. Isn't it a common trope in rock music for a girl to be prevailed upon to lighten up, let her hair down, and have some fun despite the fact her daddy is the local alderman or something? This one has been bugging me all day.

#7 could be Charles Bukowski, which could match up with Charlie Brown (#9), assuming they are both correct. If #10 is Snoopy (and not Bulwer-Lytton), then I would be willing to bet that he fits into a different category than Charlie Brown; Mark would never have put those two clues consecutively like that if they were to be grouped together.

----------


## prendrelemick

I was thinking Sth Carolina too, but "Flighty" steered me away as Florence and Myrtle are also the names of American Birds. But I didn't know the Swamp Cabbage - Carolina connection then. 

If #1 was a crossword clue it would be "clear the air" if that helps anyone.

The Cult wanted an indian girl to let her hair down, but no daddy mentioned.
So did Slade

----------


## MarkBastable

I'll give a few pointers to keep this going.


1. An impromptu gathering to lose the smog. (You're looking for a song.)
2. The state of swamp cabbage. 
3. Girl told to let her hair down, regardless of her father's occupation. (You're looking for a song.) 
4. "I’m the hero," he says lassitudinously. 
5. She was evilly winked at by a snake of a guy. (You're looking for a song.)
6. "Will you be my friend?" is his spirited request.
7. Once tipped on Wilshire and North Vine. 
8. Flighty Florence and Myrtle.
9. "Good grief!" he says roundly.
10. His opening line: It was a dark and stormy night... 
11. A tempting metaphorical girl heading west. (You're looking for a song.)
12. A lopazoo on the coast. 
13. A southern girl with two left feet. (You're looking for a song.)

----------


## iamnobody

I'm pretty sure 3 is Sloopy, of Hang on Sloopy.

----------


## Calidore

5 would be "Time Warp" from _Rocky Horror_.

----------


## MarkBastable

> 5 would be "Time Warp" from _Rocky Horror_.



Because the hint was a bit misleading, I feel bound to say that that's very nearly right. It's the 'she' that matters.

----------


## prendrelemick

^It must be Columbia - also in Sth Carolina.

So is that now 4 South Carolina's?

Number 13 could be Jennifer with skin like cinnamon.

Hang on Sloopy, wikis up one Dorothy sloop. Also the state of Ohio.

----------


## MarkBastable

Okay, this isn't generating quite the maelstrom of fun and interest that perhaps I'd hoped. I can't have pitched it well.

However, let me have one last shot at keeping it alive by telling you what you've got right so far. I've also changed a couple to make them (I hope) a bit easier.



1. An impromptu festival to lose the smog. (You're looking for a song.)
2. The state of swamp cabbage. *The Palmetto State (South Carolina)*
3. Girl told to let her hair down, regardless of her father's occupation. (You're looking for a song.) *Sloopy.*
4. "I’m the hero," the dog says lassitudinously. 
5. She was evilly winked at by a snake of a guy. (You're looking for a song.) *Columbia*
6. "Will you be my friend?" is his spirited request. *Casper*
7. Once gastronomically tipped on Wilshire and North Vine. 
8. Flighty Florence and Myrtle. *(Airports in) South Carolina*
9. "Good grief!" he says roundly. *Charlie Brown*
10. His opening line: It was a dark and stormy night... *Snoopy*
11. A tempting metaphorical heroine heading west. (You're looking for a song.)
12. A lopazoo on the coast. *Charleston*
13. A southern girl with two left feet. (You're looking for a song.)

To recap the goal - the answers form four groups of three, with one over. What is the odd answer?

----------


## billl

4. Lassie.

----------


## MarkBastable

Not Lassie. Seriously, dude, would you consider me so low as to employ a pun like that? Who do you think I am? Mick?

----------


## billl

Well, with Mick, it would've been be a generous stooping. This turned out to be a trap.

----------


## Calidore

#11 wouldn't be Holly from Lou Reed's "Walk on the Wild Side," would it?

----------


## prendrelemick

The dog is Droopy I think. 

So we have droopy snoopy and sloopy - we need another oopy


EDIT:

Or not, I've just found "Woodstock" by Joni Mitchell and the lyrics fit the smog thing. (No. 1)

so we have Woodstock, Charlie Brown and snoopy.

----------


## MarkBastable

> #11 wouldn't be Holly from Lou Reed's "Walk on the Wild Side," would it?


Nah - she was heading east.

Actually, now you mention it, I think she was from Miami, and she hitchhiked her way 'across the USA' which would imply west. But she ends her journey in New York. So - not for the first time - Lou has been a bit lazy on the lyric there.

----------


## prendrelemick

> Well, with Mick, it would've been be a generous stooping. This turned out to be a trap.



I stoop to concur.

----------


## MarkBastable

> I stoop to concur.


Now that one I'd claim.

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

I put a little thought into number 11...

“The Unsinkable Molly Brown” a heroine of the Titanic. Tempting - ? difficult to tell due to the unrevealing protocol of fashion in that time. Titanic headed west (only)
Song – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulRpS-HE_W4 
Any takers?...

OK, this one has to be it; “Isis”. She looks pretty tempting based on images the ancient Egyptians left behind. Worship of Isis spread “westward” to the Greco-Roman empire.
Song - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq2Z5...eature=related 
Hmmm…nothing still?

Got it! - How about “Venus”? – The planet “moves westward” across the sky. Foxy [strike]virgin[/strike] {edit} (Virgo crossed my mind), still Venus is hot = tempting. Associated with military victory, among other things = heroine.
Song – “Venus” by Shocking Blue - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LhkyyCvUHk

Man, I’m good!......what!?, unhand me, you cannot refute Venus. 

.

----------


## prendrelemick

> Okay, this isn't generating quite the maelstrom of fun and interest that perhaps I'd hoped. I can't have pitched it well.
> 
> However, let me have one last shot at keeping it alive by telling you what you've got right so far. I've also changed a couple to make them (I hope) a bit easier.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. An impromptu festival to lose the smog. (You're looking for a song.)
> 2. The state of swamp cabbage. *The Palmetto State (South Carolina)*
> 3. Girl told to let her hair down, regardless of her father's occupation. (You're looking for a song.) *Sloopy.*
> ...


Oh 4 groups of three!!  :Frown5:  Thats about two weeks of my life wasted then.


GG, what about Atlanta - carried west on the back of a bull?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Oh 4 groups of three!!  Thats about two weeks of my life wasted then.
> 
> 
> GG, what about Atlanta - carried west on the back of a bull?


I really thought this was one of the easier ones, especially for Brits of a certain age. Mick - '...metaphorical heroine...' - come on. 

Here's a weird thing, though. If GG's first guess from his last post were what I'd meant, it would be right.

Three left to get.... Just to check myself, I've tried Googling combinations of the key words or phrases, without giving any thought at all to the sense or context of the clues. Within a couple of tries, the answers came up on the first returned page, except for #13, which I've now made easier. (It really sounds like I'm desperate to help you now, doesn't it?)

1. An impromptu festival to lose the smog. (You're looking for a song.) *Woodstock*
2. The state of swamp cabbage. *The Palmetto State (South Carolina)*
3. Girl told to let her hair down, regardless of her father's occupation. (You're looking for a song.) *Sloopy.*
4. "I’m the hero," the dog says lassitudinously. *Droopy*
5. She was evilly winked at by a snake of a guy. (You're looking for a song.) *Columbia*
6. "Will you be my friend?" is his spirited request. *Casper*
7. Once gastronomically tipped on Wilshire and North Vine. 
8. Flighty Florence and Myrtle. *(Airports in) South Carolina*
9. "Good grief!" he says roundly. *Charlie Brown*
10. His opening line: It was a dark and stormy night... *Snoopy*
11. A tempting metaphorical heroine heading west. (You're looking for a song.)
12. A lopazoo on the coast. *Charleston*
13. It ain't her sister - it's a southern girl with two left feet. (You're looking for a song.)

I'll give this a couple of days, then fill in the remaining answers so that you can do the groupings.

----------


## prendrelemick

Brown Sugar?

I really hope it isn't that, as it just complicates the groups situation.

----------


## billl

Ruby Tuesday was heading for the new day (off in the West, presumably), but was she tempting?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Brown Sugar?
> 
> I really hope it isn't that, as it just complicates the groups situation.


_Brown Sugar_ really isn't that metaphorical, I don't think. I mean, 'Brown Sugar - how come you taste so good? Just like a black girl should'. It's all he can do not to swap out 'taste' for what he really means - but he sings it like he means what he means.

Still, I'd settle for it.

----------


## prendrelemick

Oh gawd, just found another Brown.

No.13. Sweet Georgia Brown.

I m sure Brown Sugar is a metaphor for SOMETHING.


I only hope Gordon Brown wasn't gastronomicly tipped anywhere in LA

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

I put a little _more_ thought into no. 11.
Looking at heroine in terms of a drug led me to "Molly" or "Brown Molly" and somehow made my way to "Golden Brown"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_51bEKfOfw

There's a line in there about heading west. Will that one work??

That means there's still a chance that "Isis" could be the odd one out, right?

----------


## MarkBastable

> I put a little _more_ thought into no. 11.
> Looking at heroine in terms of a drug led me to "Molly" or "Brown Molly" and somehow made my way to "Golden Brown"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_51bEKfOfw
> 
> There's a line in there about heading west. Will that one work??


Yep, _Golden Brown_ is right. One left.

1. An impromptu festival to lose the smog. (You're looking for a song.) *Woodstock*
2. The state of swamp cabbage. *The Palmetto State* (South Carolina)
3. Girl told to let her hair down, regardless of her father's occupation. (You're looking for a song.) *Sloopy*
4. "Im the hero," the dog says lassitudinously. *Droopy*
5. She was evilly winked at by a snake of a guy. (You're looking for a song.) *Columbia*
6. "Will you be my friend?" is his spirited request. *Casper*
7. Once gastronomically tipped on Wilshire and North Vine. 
8. Flighty Florence and Myrtle. *(Airports in) South Carolina*
9. "Good grief!" he says roundly. *Charlie Brown*
10. His opening line: It was a dark and stormy night... *Snoopy*
11. A tempting metaphorical heroine heading west. (You're looking for a song.) *Golden Brown*
12. A lopazoo on the coast. *Charleston*
13. It ain't her sister - it's a southern girl with two left feet. (You're looking for a song.) *Sweet Georgia Brown*

----------


## MarkBastable

*7. Once gastronomically tipped on Wilshire and North Vine.* 


If you Google:

_"Wilshire" "North Vine"_


the first returned page is this.

So now, if any reader yet gives a flying one, all you have to do is arrange them in four groups of three in order to identify the one left over.

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

> ...GG, what about Atlanta - carried west on the back of a bull?


I read about a a pioneer family that left Atlanta heading west to Oregon. They used a bull to carry their belongings including Grandma Atlanta.

Can't find the correct song, so we'll go with this.... 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRXRH...eature=related




> [B]
> 
> ..._"Wilshire" "North Vine"_
> 
> 
> the first returned page is this.
> 
> So now, if any reader yet gives a flying one, all you have to do is arrange them in four groups of three in order to identify the one left over.


Is this the correct order?...

Woodstock - Charlie Brown - Casper = animated characters

The Palmetto State - South Carolina - Charleston = Relative to South Carolina 

Sloopy - Droopy - Snoopy = "oopy" 

Golden Brown - Sweet Georgia Brown - Brown Derby = "Brown"

Odd one out "Columbia" - completes the third airport in the list of clues, but not part of the answer list

----------


## MarkBastable

> I read about a a pioneer family that left Atlanta heading west to Oregon. They used a bull to carry their belongings including Grandma Atlanta.
> 
> Can't find the correct song, so we'll go with this.... 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRXRH...eature=related
> 
> 
> 
> Is this the correct order?...
> 
> ...


Nope. Apart from anything else, 'The Palmetto State' and 'South Carolina' would appear to be the same answer stated two ways. Did you mean 'Tha Palmetto State' and 'Florence and Myrtle'? In which case, what makes Columbia the odd one out?

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

> ...Did you mean 'Tha Palmetto State' and 'Florence and Myrtle'? In which case, what makes Columbia the odd one out?


Uh...yeah?...maybe?
(aside) No, couldn't be Columbia. Why Columbia? Why not Charleston? Charleston has an airport too. Florence was in the Brady Bunch, but that was filmed in California. Myrtle...oh the hell with it!
Prendrelemick where are you? someone, anyone.

.

----------


## Basil

I can't really help you, Gilliat, but I'll list my hunches--such as they are--in the hopes they will possibly assist someone more capable than myself in solving this [strike]blasted puzzle[/strike] maelstrom of fun:

1. I'm not sure Charleston and Columbia match up very well with either of the South Carolina answers; I'm thinking the third answer to complete that grouping may be Casper (as in Casper, Wyoming) for 'U.S. Cities beginning with the letter C'.

2. Sloopy, Droopy and Snoopy, almost certainly.

3. Charlie Brown, Golden Brown and Sweet Georgia Brown.

...which leaves Woodstock, the Palmetto state, the Brown Derby, and (Airports in) South Carolina; two of which seem to go together, but I can't for the life of me figure out which of the other two would join them. Anyone?

----------


## prendrelemick

Thinking out loud..

I suspect Casper is the odd one out, as all the other seem to go together, though not in the right grouping.

There's a "oo" group, 

a South Carolina group,

a Peanuts group,

and a Brown group.

and Casper. 

These are all overlapping and would easily make three groups of four (dropping the peanuts group)

GG spotted there may be a cartoon group - but that would leave Sloopy high and dry (or odd one out?)

The other thing that works is "names of towns that are also names of characters" group

Woodstock
Casper
Columbia

Then the oopies
Droopy
Sloopy
Snoopy

Then the Carolinas
Palmatto
Airports
Charleston

Then the Browns - but there are four of them, any could be odd one out, but "Brown Derby" isn't a person so I would say that one...

----------


## MarkBastable

> Thinking out loud..
> 
> I suspect Casper is the odd one out, as all the other seem to go together, though not in the right grouping.
> 
> There's a "oo" group, 
> 
> a South Carolina group,
> 
> a Peanuts group,
> ...


Nope. You may or may not have more than one group right - but I'll give you one for sure. The 'oopies' are right.

----------


## MarkBastable

Okay - I obviously failed to attract popular interest here. My apologies. I wanted to come up with thirteen items that suggested multiple possible groups, so that the actual correct one left over would be inarguably so only when all four groups of three slotted together in a way that was solidly and satisfyingly self-evident. I might have made that too rubbery.

Last giveaway before I give it all away...

The odd-one-over is _Woodstock_. So what are the four groups of three? 'Oopies' is one of them.

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

Maybe I should change my name to "Stretch Armstrong"...

Sloopy - Droopy - Snoopy = "oopy" 

Charlie Brown - Golden Brown - Casper = Songs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UnPzp2lmNk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_51bEKfOfw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlyR9U1pQ70

(Airports in) South Carolina - Columbia - Charleston = airports in SC

Sweet Georgia Brown - Brown Derby - The Palmetto - restaurants

(btw - I've been to Sweet Georgia Brown a few times for some down home south Dallas Soul Food)

Woodstock = one leftover (extra song)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF_XB5xrHS4

.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Maybe I should change my name to "Stretch Armstrong"...
> 
> Sloopy - Droopy - Snoopy = "oopy" 
> 
> Charlie Brown - Golden Brown - Casper = Songs
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UnPzp2lmNk
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_51bEKfOfw
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlyR9U1pQ70
> ...


So, as I understand it, your argument is that Woodstock is the odd-one out because it's a song that you haven't included in the group of, er, songs.

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

> So, as I understand it, your argument is that Woodstock is the odd-one out because it's a song that you haven't included in the group of, er, songs.


A fitting response would be; good grief! I see your point.

(quick damage control)...

Uhwhat I meant isits the only song that begins with a W andand therefore its the odd one out since it is the fourth song in alphabetical order? 

(Let me quickly rearrange the other three, so this argument makes sense)

Casper - Charlie Brown - Golden Brown - Woodstock

No, noI didnt mean song. I meant to say it is the odd one out because it represents an event rather than a song, airport, oopies or restaurants. That has to be it, right?

Thats it for me; Prendrelemick?...Basil?...someone?

.

----------


## billl

Casper is pure white. Woodstock had brown acid. So three browns, and Casper left over.

EDIT: a bare 10 seconds of checking my idea over reveals that there'd be at least five browns if brown were a category.

----------


## Basil

I think I may have discovered the missing link:

1. Sloopy, Droopy, Snoopy - the oopies

2. Golden Brown, Sweet Georgia Brown, Brown Derby - the brownies

3. The Palmetto State, Florence and Myrtle, Charleston - South Cackalacka

4. Casper, Charlie Brown, Columbia - all names used by NASA for Apollo mission Command Modules

----------


## MarkBastable

> I think I may have discovered the missing link:
> 
> 1. Sloopy, Droopy, Snoopy - the oopies
> 
> 2. Golden Brown, Sweet Georgia Brown, Brown Derby - the brownies
> 
> 3. The Palmetto State, Florence and Myrtle, Charleston - South Cackalacka
> 
> 4. Casper, Charlie Brown, Columbia - all names used by NASA for Apollo mission Command Modules



Yep. I feel a bit guilty that this one proved difficult to the point of being tiresome.

----------


## billl

Might've been pretty satisfying for Basil at the end, though.

My only complaint about this one (and my limited participation ended up silencing me on the issue) was that I never understood about the South Carolina thing, and the two cities, or was it airports, or was it the state of South Carolina itself that might be a member of something else, or what--I'm not so good at this type of puzzle usually, so having this confusion spread over a couple pages and a few attempts sort of scared me off.

Otherwise, it looked to be an appropriately devilish one with several layers to deal with. This thread has been sort of low on steam for a couple months or so, and I think _that's_ probably why this one went so long. Our habitual dedication got pummeled by a couple strange ones or something (I can only vaguely remember).

----------


## MarkBastable

> My only complaint about this one (and my limited participation ended up silencing me on the issue) was that I never understood about the South Carolina thing, and the two cities, or was it airports, or was it the state of South Carolina itself that might be a member of something else, or what...


I felt it went "Charleston, the airports and 'the Palmetto State' are all associated with South Carolina." But you're right - you could argue that 'South Carolina' was both the clue and the answer, which was arguably a category error and it did cause me some sleepless minutes. But by the time I'd come up with all those deliberately misleading cross-references for the whole thirteen first-level answers, I was exhausted.

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

Great job Basil and Mark.
I didn't find it tiresome at all, in fact the longevity turned out some interesting responses, which made the whole experince enjoyable. billl beat me to the punch on the *(airports in) South Carolina* point, but alas I hear the ah so sad tune of a violin. 
I'm still working on a better bull carrying Atlanta heading west response. I'll save it for the family though.

----------


## billl

My research for this one taught me that "The Charlie Brown" was a dance move, but not a dance in itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REKU1...elated#t=2m40s
Of course, the song is by DJ Casper...

But wait, does this qualify as a dance?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5IGo...eature=related

----------


## prendrelemick

I admit to some admiration of Mark. I would've crumbled and given the answer weeks ago.

----------


## prendrelemick

Soo, if we're all recovered. Basil it's your go.

----------


## prendrelemick

Here is the most ridiculous cypher ever devised by anybody ever.


afkpugmiejoty bcdhmrvwx abcdfkpuvwx adfhklprux

----------


## prendrelemick

I don't know if anyone has looked at this yet.

However first clue is, you can put the letters of each group in any order and it will still work.

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

It hasn't gone unnoticed. I briefly looked at it when you first posted.
I'm currently shopping for an Enigma on E-bay to aid me.

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

I believe the answer is "12"

----------


## prendrelemick

Nope.

Next clue :- The number 5 is the key.

----------


## billl

> Nope.
> 
> Next clue :- The number 5 is the key.


This is undoubtedly not the answer.

EDIT: But big clue, I do see the distance of 5 happening for a while, and then stopping at the start. And then similar sequences plugged into different spots. Hmph.

----------


## MarkBastable

Different minds, outlooks, skills.... I have absolutely no idea how to go about solving a problem like this, and - perhaps a bit defensively - I have no interest in finding out. I'm not knocking those who can and do, you understand. It's just that I look at it and think, "Oh dear. Call me when it's over..."

----------


## prendrelemick

It may take a "different mind" to do this one.




> This is undoubtedly not the answer.
> 
> EDIT: But big clue, I do see the distance of 5 happening for a while, and then stopping at the start. And then similar sequences plugged into different spots. Hmph.



You're getting close. Look at the third group - it almost gives it away :Tongue:

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

> Nope.
> 
> Next clue :- The number 5 is the key.


*Answer: The Double Nickel Steakhouse in Lubbock Texas*

http://www.doublenickelsteakhouse.co...d=47&Itemid=55

and heres how the Enigma arrived at the answer:
A 4 f 4 k 4 p 4 u -13 g 5 m -3 I -3 e 5 j 4 o 4 t 4 y = 14 
B 0 c 0 d 3 h 4 m 4 r 3 v 0 w 0 x = 14 
A 0 b 0 c 0 d 1 f 4 k 4 p 4 u 0 v 0 w 0 x = 13
A 2 d 1 f 1 h 2 k 0 l 3 p 1 r 2 u 2 x = 14

(note this counts the number of letters _between_ the beginning and end of each range) 

Therefore:
14+14+13+14 = 55 aka Double Nickel = The Double Nickel Steakhouse in Lubbock Texas

Btw- My first answer of 12 turned out to be a faulty vacuum tube.

----------


## prendrelemick

Like your thinking Gilliat. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6a97SpWrgE


Still wrong.

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

> *Answer: The Double Nickel Steakhouse in Lubbock Texas*
> 
> http://www.doublenickelsteakhouse.co...d=47&Itemid=55
> 
> and heres how the Enigma arrived at the answer:
> A 4 f 4 k 4 p 4 u -13 g 5 m -3 I -3 e 5 j 4 o 4 t 4 y = 14 
> B 0 c 0 d 3 h 4 m 4 r 3 v 0 w 0 x = 14 
> A 0 b 0 c 0 d 1 f 4 k 4 p 4 u 0 v 0 w 0 x = 13
> A 2 d 1 f 1 h 2 k 0 l 3 p 1 r 2 u 2 x = 14
> ...





> Like your thinking Gilliat. 
> 
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6a97SpWrgE
> 
> 
> Still wrong.




billl
I see you're online.
Have you put anymore thought into this?

.

----------


## billl

> billl
> I see you're online.
> Have you put anymore thought into this?
> 
> .


Actually, no. Not, that is, until I noticed your most recent post. You inspired me to spend maybe more than two hours working on a way to get my computer to check something that I could probably do by hand in 5-10 minutes (and so I won't tell you what I'm checking--just let me say that it isn't a very promising idea, it's probably wrong, but I'm having fun with the computer). I'm almost there, will definitely finish tomorrow.

*P.S. I actually like this one a lot.* If people get frustrated or whatever and want something else to work on, might I suggest leaving this one unanswered (until those of us interested in it have given up)? This thread seems to have a different vibe these past few months. Perhaps we could have two puzzles going on at once--it might keep people's eyes on it a little more, satisfy a wider variety of tastes...

Then again, some people might be dying to know the answer. This idea might be unfair to them... Basically, I just got interested in this one again a little bit, I guess that's all I'm saying.

----------


## prendrelemick

Another clue.

This is not a math cypher. Maths will not help you at all.

remember former clues.

It is ridiculous
the letters of each group can be in any order
5 is significant.

and finally, you're looking for a 4 letter word.

----------


## billl

I KNEW IT was a four-letter word!

----------


## billl

Just to get all the info back on the current page:




> Here is the most ridiculous cypher ever devised by anybody ever.
> 
> 
> *afkpugmiejoty bcdhmrvwx abcdfkpuvwx adfhklprux*





> Another clue.
> 
> *This is not a math cypher. Maths will not help you at all.
> *
> remember former clues.
> 
> *It is ridiculous
> the letters of each group can be in any order
> 5 is significant.*
> ...


Well, my computer experiments from 3 posts ago are at an end, and sure enough, the results were negative--UNLESS "qmcq" is the answer we're looking for...

*crosses fingers*

Yes, well, in the unlikely event that is the correct answer, my method is as follows. For each group of letters:
1) sum the ordinal values of the letters (e.g. a=1, b=2, c=3 ... f=6... z=26).
2) divide the resulting sum by 26, and look at the remainder (a modulus operation).
3) convert the remainder to a letter (via ordinal value). If the remainder is 0, use "z" as the letter.

Thus we get
GROUP SUM / MODULUS / LETTER
afkpugmiejoty 95 / 17 / q
bcdhmrvwx 117 / 13 / m
abcdfkpuvwx 133 / 3 / c
adfhklprux 121 / 17 / q

There's a guy with a myspace page called "qmcq", and his profile pic is him with a dog, which is "god" spelled backwards, of course...

----------


## prendrelemick

Nope, the nearest you came to the answer is when you typed the word "pic."


We're in a bit of a *grid*lock here. you need to *co-ordinate* your efforts to get the *picture.*

----------


## billl

GOT IT.

A clue like that, well, it was what was needed. A great cypher, tough without the grid or co-ordinate hint... I have no pride, here. I'm just the one up late enough to get the news (and get saddled with the curse of next puzzle!), but here it is:

Mick has made each letter represent a pixel in a 5 by 5 grid (so "z" isn't involved), in which the shape of the letters is portrayed:

*
abcde
fghij
klmno
pqrst
uvwxy

*
when we "color in" the areas corresponding to the letters in each group, we get the following four images (i.e. "four letters"):

*
x---x
xx-xx
x-x-x
x---x
x---x

-xxx-
--x--
--x--
--x--
-xxx-

xxxx-
x----
x----
x----
xxxx-

x--x-
x-x--
xx---
x-x--
x--x-

*
which, of course, spell out a dirty word.

----------


## billl

Well, I loved that one--it'll be hard to top. I don't have a lot of time, so I'm not left with many options--I'll just try a twist on Mick's idea.


abcdekrvy aefghimnoptxy bcdjklrvy abcdeijklmquy

----------


## MarkBastable

> GOT IT.
> 
> A clue like that, well, it was what was needed. A great cypher, tough without the grid or co-ordinate hint... I have no pride, here. I'm just the one up late enough to get the news (and get saddled with the curse of next puzzle!), but here it is:
> 
> Mick has made each letter represent a pixel in a 5 by 5 grid (so "z" isn't involved), in which the shape of the letters is portrayed:
> 
> *
> abcde
> fghij
> ...


That's very clever. I like that.

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

> Well, I loved that one--it'll be hard to top. I don't have a lot of time, so I'm not left with many options--I'll just try a twist on Mick's idea.
> 
> 
> abcdekrvy aefghimnoptxy bcdjklrvy abcdeijklmquy


billl, before I go off on a wild hair with numbers, should I go off on a wild hair with numbers?

----------


## billl

> billl, before I go off on a wild hair with numbers, should I go off on a wild hair with numbers?


No, don't do that. It's a bit like what we've seen (not a complete re-imagining in sheep-farmer's clothing).

----------


## prendrelemick

I've gone mad with shapes, grids and lines, nothing yet. but there are sequences or blocks of letters that are telling us something...




(You really wouldn't want to go anywhere near a sheep farmers clothes.)

----------


## billl

I'll go ahead and mention at this point that the original post (#1659) on this latest one contained a clue. (Actually, there's a few more clues in it as well, but they're maybe not as useful to begin with as the main clue.)

----------


## prendrelemick

Ooo I see, sneaky

The word is "THIS"

----------


## billl

That is correct, sir.

----------


## prendrelemick

Bill had done the same as my previous encryption, only his grid was twisted (hence the clue) and spiraled to the centre.

abcde
pqrsf
oxytg
nwvuh
mlkji

Now, remembering this is supposed to be the *daily* puzzle thread, here is something quick from Jamaica.

Mr Parrott sittin' in de tree
some pigeons am flyin pas'
"Mornin' Mr Parrot" dem say
"Mornin' Mr Hundred" say Mr Parrott.
Pigeon say. "We not Mr Hundred, 
want twice as much, half as much,
quarter as much an' you Mr Parrott
to make a hundred."

How many pigeons were there.

----------


## MarkBastable

Nine.

----------


## billl

Thirty-Six!

(with an assist to Mark)

----------


## MarkBastable

> Thirty-Six!
> 
> (with an assist to Mark)


Oh, crap. Having started with the quarter as x, I forgot to multiply by four at the end.

This is what happens when you do maths while cleaning your teeth, looking for socks and listening for the toaster to ping.

----------


## billl

Well, I was struggling with the accent, definitely needed the head-start.

Here:

Marsha and Marjorie were born on the same day of the same month of the same year to the same mother and the same father, yet they are not twins. How is that possible?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Well, I was struggling with the accent, definitely needed the head-start.
> 
> Here:
> 
> Marsha and Marjorie were born on the same day of the same month of the same year to the same mother and the same father, yet they are not twins. How is that possible?


They are two-thirds of triplets.

On the tangential basis of which, here's an extract from a novel that's about to ricochet around London's publishers, looking for a place to settle...


--------------

We all trooped back to Auntie Mays Victorian terrace with its bilious staircarpet and apple-and-pear motif on the wall-tiles in the kitchen. The women passed around anaemic sausage rolls that flaked like a skin condition, while the men opened cans of lager which  in deference to the solemnity of the occasion  they attempted to decant into petrol-station glasses, before discovering that they were too small and swigging the rest from the can.

Waste not want not, eh, Tom? my Uncle Bob said, tossing an empty into the swing-top. Heres to Alan, the old bastard. Two down, two to go. He took a long slug and smacked his lips. Just me and Trevor left now. And Trevs not been well.

Im sorry to hear that, I said, glancing at Uncle Trevor who was standing in the hall trying to balance a plate on his arm whilst holding a beer and lighting a cigarette. He looks all right.

Bob leaned forward. Cancer, he said, in a carrying whisper. It's his bowel. Nothing they can do for him. The ciggies can't hurt him now. There was a yolky stain on Bob's black tie. I imagine he had taken it off and tossed it drunkenly into the wardrobe after the last family funeral. 

Still in the will-writing business? he asked. Must get that sorted. Can't take it with you, can you?

Were working on it."

An hour or so later  and five crates of beer more relaxed  the inconsolable mourners put some music on and had a party. They would have referred to it, I suspect, as a _knees-up_. I exchanged glances with my mother, who was rigid with smiling embarrassment on the sofa. I tipped my head towards the door.

Did you see them, Tomàs? she hissed in the car. Mother of God  they have no class! No class at all! 

So where did Dad come by any class? I asked her.

In some people it is natural. Like painting. She opened her handbag and extracted a compact. I can see it the first time I meet him. Peasant bones, but good class.

Which makes me a peasant too.

No! You have your fathers good class, and noble Catalan blood. Anyone can see that. An idiot can see it.

This, incidentally, is another of my mothers recurring themes. Shes not Spanish  shes Catalonian. It explains the blonde hair and her sense of beleaguered superiority. Im sure there are Catalans who till the soil and herd pigs, but in the view of Isabel Maria Vivas Lyne every one of them, however humble, is part of a natural aristocracy. 

All of you  Pablo, Jacinta  all of you have good blood.

Speaking of whom, was Pablo invited today?

My mother put her make-up back in her bag and tutted. 

I dont know where he is. Hes not call since my birthday. Where is he?

I have no idea. Im surprised he remembered your birthday.

Remember my birthday? No  it was coincidence. Pablo  how nice you call me on my birthday, I tell him. He says, Oh  its your birthday? He is not right in his head.

Hell turn up when he needs some money, I told her. 

You find him and make sure hes okay, Tomàs.

As it happened, it wouldnt be necessary to find him because a few days later hed be all over the ten oclock news. But, as ever, my mother expected me to be the responsible one, the protective one, the dutiful one. Pablo was considered too delicate and unworldly to take care of himself. He was always the favourite. As a kid, I couldnt understand it  how can you choose a favourite from twins, for Gods sake? But the Condesa coddled Pablo and babied him from the moment she laid eyes on him  and I was nine or ten years old before I found out why.

When Pablo was born, in an American military hospital in Samoa, he was hustled away from my mother before she could see him. My father, remember, was still stranded on the typhoon-tossed Solomon Islands, clinging to a palm tree with Jacinta strapped to his chest. Mother was alone, disorientated and hardly _compos mentis_. In the previous twenty-four hours, shed undergone a lengthy labour delivering me, shed been flown through a tropical storm in a USAF aircraft and shed suffered a second labour to give birth to Pablo. 

This was in the days before ultrasound, of course  she hadnt even been aware that she was carrying more than one baby. Whats more, she barely spoke English at all  she and my father always conversed in Spanish, right up until they moved to Surrey. So when a midwife whisked the newborn away the Condesa became forgivably agitated. They knocked her out with a syringeful of something, if only to give her the chance to sleep.

When she awoke I was in a crib beside her. She assumed, understandably, that I was the infant she had most recently given birth to, and that somehow she had mislaid the one she had brought with her from the Solomon Islands. She tried to explain this to a nurse using a combination of mime and fractured English. She was holding me in the crook of one elbow, but she stretched out the other arm like an aeroplane wing, and then made baby-rocking motions. Where baby? Two baby! Where baby?

The gesture with the stiff, extended arm was unfortunate, because it led the nurse to believe that my mother had been told about Pablo. She brought him from the nursery and handed him over. Unlike me, he was not snugly dressed in a hospital all-in-one sleepsuit. He was loosely wrapped in a woollen blanket. My mother put me in the crib so that she could swaddle Pablo more cosily. She pulled the blanket off him  and screamed. She screamed as only an emotionally-exhausted Iberian mother can scream. 

Protruding from the babys back, slightly to the left of the spine, was an underdeveloped but perfectly recognisable arm complete with tiny hand and tinier fingers. The rest of the foetus, it turned out, was enclosed within the newborns body  a separate being, but undeniably part of Pablo. One child consumed by the other within the womb.

So, strictly speaking, Pablo and I are not twins. We are surviving triplets.

----------


## prendrelemick

Good stuff. These will be the twins who are triplets who were born in different years.

----------


## billl

The thread has become pretty discombobulating, which is the point after all. Mark certainly got the latest puzzle right, and then the extract leaves some mystery about the larger story (advertising it well). And then I read Mick's comment.

----------


## MarkBastable

> The thread has become pretty discombobulating, which is the point after all. Mark certainly got the latest puzzle right, and then the extract leaves some mystery about the larger story (advertising it well). And then I read Mick's comment.


Thank you.

Mick was referring to this....

----------


## billl

Oh, that's right, I remember giving up right away on that one.

----------


## MarkBastable

Details from the covers of eight albums. The initial letters of the (first word of the) album titles can be arranged to form a word or words or phrase.



The name of the file, incidentally, is nothing to do with anything. It's a screw-up in Photobucket.

----------


## billl

Don't recognize images 3 and 8 (l to r, top to bottom).

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

> Don't recognize images 3 and 8 (l to r, top to bottom).


billl,,
I can identify the third one using your orientation, but that's all at the moment.
There is something vaguely familiar with the gal in the number two box.
Based on your comment, it sounds like you have the others pegged.

----------


## billl

For number 3, I know it can't be this, but I've been straining to get a better look at this dude's shoulder, with the blonde locks spilling down:



After David Gilmour's leather jacketed solo album cover, that's all I've come up with.

Number 8 also reminds me of an album that is probably not the right one, but I can't even place which wrong one I'm thinking of in that case.





> There is something vaguely familiar with the gal in the number two box.


Interesting you say that, because I was surprised to learn recently that she's much better known for something else. (Well, that's what "the experts" say. The "something else" woman herself claims to be unsure if that's her in the pic, since it was the 70's then, anything's possible, etc.)

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

> For number 3, I know it can't be this, but I've been straining to get a better look at this dude's shoulder, with the blonde locks spilling down:


I'm willing to sell you the answer to number three, but you better not send me a _rubber_ check.

----------


## billl

> I'm willing to sell you the answer to number three, but you better not send me a _rubber_ check.


Hmm.... OK, So I got number 3, now!! (Thanks, but maybe I should call the cops on you for interfering...)

Anyhow...

Let's see if we can find someone with 8, and then we can work on a Grand Bargain.

The six letters I have aren't enough to work with, so I'm just working on the pic for 8. It looks like something from a 90's album, I've been thinking Neil Young and Tome Petty, but those aren't it. Also was thinking Pearl Jam and Smashing Pumpkins, but no. Knowing Mark, and looking at the other ones, it's probably 70's - 80's though...

I might be happiest, in the end, if it's simply one I haven't seen before, because I really feel like I should be able to get it.

(also, i did an edit to the post you replied to that you might've missed)

----------


## prendrelemick

I hate this puzzle! It,s like when there is something in the back of your mind, and you can't quite remember what it is - nine times over.

----------


## MarkBastable

> I hate this puzzle! It,s like when there is something in the back of your mind, and you can't quite remember what it is - nine times over.


Oh, good. That's the effect I'm after. 

Bill - can you IM me the gossip on the chick in number 2?

----------


## billl

Should I soon list the album covers that I've recognized (7 out of the 8)? 

Maybe, given those "letters", someone might find it easier to guess number 8?

And if someone knows 8 already, let's make a deal?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Should I soon list the album covers that I've recognized (7 out of the 8)? 
> 
> Maybe, given those "letters", someone might find it easier to guess number 8?
> 
> And if someone knows 8 already, let's make a deal?


Sure. I think it's gone on long enough. 

Though if I were in your position, I'd be trading them one-for-one.

----------


## billl

> Details from the covers of eight albums. The initial letters of the (first word of the) album titles can be arranged to form a word or words or phrase.
> 
> 
> 
> The name of the file, incidentally, is nothing to do with anything. It's a screw-up in Photobucket.


123
456
78

1. Bruce Springsteen, *D*arkness On The Edge Of Town
2. Tom Waits, *S*mall Change
3. The Beatles, *R*ubber Soul*
4. Joni Mitchell, *B*lue
5. Steely Dan, *A*ja
6. Pink Floyd, *M*eddle
7. The Police, *S*ynchronicity
8. ?, ?

The letters so far: A, B, D, M, R, S, S

*(Number 3 via Gilliat Gurgle)

----------


## jajdude

Bass drum?

----------


## billl

Whoa, quick work. Wikipedia actually has a "category" page/index called "English-language albums", and luckily the U's are a manageable collection to look over. But I saw nothing promising (checked Ummagumma, just in case, though).

----------


## prendrelemick

And I thought Nine was the white album.

----------


## MarkBastable

Yep.

So did someone identify the U?

----------


## jajdude

Doesn't look promising for anyone getting the U. I didn't know any of them actually, but now that it was pointed out I can see the Springsteen one.

----------


## MarkBastable

_Unplugged in New York_ - Nirvana

----------


## billl

An unexpected choice! That probably _was_ in that list of English-language albums...

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

Nice job billl and jajdude.
I wasn't able to spend much time on this one. Having seen the answers, I doubt that additional time would have helped. 
The "U" intrigued me as does the ukulele, but no luck going down that road.

Is my check in the mail billl?

.

----------


## billl

> Is my check in the mail billl?


I guess it's still bouncing around in the email system somewhere.

----------


## Basil

The following quotes or expressions all refer to a particular literary figure--name the person being discussed. Bonus points if you can also identify the speaker for the quotes marked with an *. As always, no googling.

*1. "He has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to the dictionary."

*2. "He was a true Poet and of the Devil's party without knowing it."

*3. "About eight years or so ago, Valentine's Day, I seem to remember, you received an extremely bad reviewand this review, unlike most bad reviews, came accompanied with a very large advance."

*4. "What unfolds in his works is not a multitude of characters and fates in a single objective world, illuminated by a single authorial consciousness; rather a _plurality of consciousnesses, with equal rights and each with its own world_, combine but are not merged in the unity of the event."

*5. "Explaining metaphysics to the nation 
I wish he would explain his Explanation."

6. "Count No 'Count"

7. "Before [him] there had only been good and bad characters, deliverers and traitors, saints and blasphemers, in literature; here the hero is saint and fool in one and the same person."

8. "It is a better and a wiser thing to be a starved apothecary than a starved poet; so back to the shop [sir], back to plasters, pills, and ointment boxes."

*9. "Once upon a time a Georgian printed a couple of books that attracted notice, but immediately it turned out that he was little more than an amanuensis for the local blacks."

*10. "A beautiful and ineffectual angel, beating in the void his luminous wings in vain."

*11. "[He] was perhaps the first great nonstop literary drinker of the American nineteenth century. He made the indulgences of Coleridge and De Quincey seem like a bit of mischief in the kitchen with the cooking sherry." 

*12. "[He] did a great many notable things for his countryit is not the idea of this memoir to ignore that or cover it up. No; the simple idea of it is to snub those pretentious maxims of his, which he worked up with a great show of originality out of truisms that had become wearisome platitudes as early as the dispersion from Babel."

----------


## Basil

I should probably add that one or two of the names might not necessarily rank as "literary." Or maybe they do; I suppose it depends on how stuffy you are on the subject.

----------


## prendrelemick

8. Keats?

----------


## Basil

> 8. Keats?


Correct, sir.

----------


## prendrelemick

11. Edgar Allan Poe.? There are many famous drunken American writers but Poe was definitely 19th century.

----------


## jajdude

Wonder if the first one refers to Hemingway. He seemed to keep the vocab simple.

----------


## Basil

Poe and Hemingway are both correct. Doing good, folks.

I might add that the third quote came from an interview, which explains why that 'you' is in there.

----------


## prendrelemick

9. Is intriguing "Local blacks" suggest an American like Mark Twain, but "Georgian" suggests pre revolution or British.

12. Wild guess time. Is it an ungenerous discription of Winston Churchill.

----------


## Basil

> 9. Is intriguing "Local blacks" suggest an American like Mark Twain, but "Georgian" suggests pre revolution or British.


I am outraged by your suggestion that Georgians are considered something other than American. I demand satisfaction, sir. Pistols, 6 o'clock. Gilliatt shall serve as my second.

Winston Churchill is incorrect. Funny, you just took a stab at the two individuals whose inclusion under the 'literary' title seemed most dubious--one because he's better known as a statesman, the other for the type of stories that he wrote.

----------


## MarkBastable

6. Tolstoy?

----------


## prendrelemick

> I am outraged by your suggestion that Georgians are considered something other than American. I demand satisfaction, sir. Pistols, 6 o'clock. Gilliatt shall serve as my second.
> 
> Winston Churchill is incorrect. Funny, you just took a stab at the two individuals whose inclusion under the 'literary' title seemed most dubious--one because he's better known as a statesman, the other for the type of stories that he wrote.


Not a subject of the Hanovarian Kings then. :Biggrin5:  Tell Gilliatt to keep his head down - I'm a lousy shot.



9. Joel Chandler Harris. (Ok I admit to Googling, but only after I thought of Uncle Remus.)

----------


## Basil

Joel Chandler Harris is correct, Tolstoy is not. I have a sneaking suspicion I'm going to have to give a clue for 6, since there really isn't anything there to enable one to "figure it out."

Sorry I blew up like that, Mick; I'm very sensitive about my Georgian heritage, particularly our origins as a debtor's colony. Idril brings it up all the time, and it's a source of great friction between us.

----------


## Basil

So to recap:

"He has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to the dictionary." *Ernest Hemingway*"He was a true Poet and of the Devil's party without knowing it.""About eight years or so ago, Valentine's Day, I seem to remember, you received an extremely bad reviewand this review, unlike most bad reviews, came accompanied with a very large advance." "What unfolds in his works is not a multitude of characters and fates in a single objective world, illuminated by a single authorial consciousness; rather a plurality of consciousnesses, with equal rights and each with its own world, combine but are not merged in the unity of the event.""Explaining metaphysics to the nation 
I wish he would explain his Explanation.""Count No 'Count""Before [him] there had only been good and bad characters, deliverers and traitors, saints and blasphemers, in literature; here the hero is saint and fool in one and the same person.""It is a better and a wiser thing to be a starved apothecary than a starved poet; so back to the shop [sir], back to plasters, pills, and ointment boxes." *John Keats*"Once upon a time a Georgian printed a couple of books that attracted notice, but immediately it turned out that he was little more than an amanuensis for the local blacks." *Joel Chandler Harris*"A beautiful and ineffectual angel, beating in the void his luminous wings in vain.""[He] was perhaps the first great nonstop literary drinker of the American nineteenth century. He made the indulgences of Coleridge and De Quincey seem like a bit of mischief in the kitchen with the cooking sherry." *Edgar Allan Poe*"[He] did a great many notable things for his countryit is not the idea of this memoir to ignore that or cover it up. No; the simple idea of it is to snub those pretentious maxims of his, which he worked up with a great show of originality out of truisms that had become wearisome platitudes as early as the dispersion from Babel."

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

> ...I demand satisfaction, sir. Pistols, 6 o'clock. Gilliatt shall serve as my second.





> ..Tell Gilliatt to keep his head down - I'm a lousy shot.
> ...


I'll bring the M1 Carbine for this one.




> So to recap:
> [*]"Count No 'Count"[*]"Before [him] there had only been good and bad characters, deliverers and traitors, saints and blasphemers, in literature; here the hero is saint and fool in one and the same person."


6. Is it Mina Murray resisting the advances of the Count (Dracula)?

7. Perhaps Prince Myshkin from Dostevsky's _The Idiot_? or Alyosha Karamozov?

.

----------


## Basil

Sorry, Gilliatt, I should have been more precise when laying out the quiz: these quotes refer to actual writers, not literary characters. The word _author_ would have been a much better choice than the slightly murky term _literary figure._

I don't actually own any firearms, but I am the assigned armorer for my unit--I could possibly get my hands on the Ma Deuce.

----------


## Basil

I'll repost the list, since we've carried over a page:




> "He has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to the dictionary." *Ernest Hemingway*"He was a true Poet and of the Devil's party without knowing it." *Milton*"About eight years or so ago, Valentine's Day, I seem to remember, you received an extremely bad review…and this review, unlike most bad reviews, came accompanied with a very large advance." "What unfolds in his works is not a multitude of characters and fates in a single objective world, illuminated by a single authorial consciousness; rather a plurality of consciousnesses, with equal rights and each with its own world, combine but are not merged in the unity of the event.""Explaining metaphysics to the nation –
> I wish he would explain his Explanation.""Count No 'Count""Before [him] there had only been good and bad characters, deliverers and traitors, saints and blasphemers, in literature; here the hero is saint and fool in one and the same person.""It is a better and a wiser thing to be a starved apothecary than a starved poet; so back to the shop [sir], back to plasters, pills, and ointment boxes." *John Keats*"Once upon a time a Georgian printed a couple of books that attracted notice, but immediately it turned out that he was little more than an amanuensis for the local blacks." *Joel Chandler Harris*"A beautiful and ineffectual angel, beating in the void his luminous wings in vain." *Percy Shelley*"[He] was perhaps the first great nonstop literary drinker of the American nineteenth century. He made the indulgences of Coleridge and De Quincey seem like a bit of mischief in the kitchen with the cooking sherry." *Edgar Allan Poe*"[He] did a great many notable things for his country…it is not the idea of this memoir to ignore that or cover it up. No; the simple idea of it is to snub those pretentious maxims of his, which he worked up with a great show of originality out of truisms that had become wearisome platitudes as early as the dispersion from Babel."

----------


## MarkBastable

2. Byron

----------


## prendrelemick

I was thinking Byron for number 10. "Ineffectual Angel" is ringing bells somewhere in my head and putting me in mind of those Romantic poets Coleridge-Keats-Shelly-Blake-Byron.

IF Byron is number 2, and as he was mad bad and dangerous to know it is likely, and Keats has already gone, and Blake was no Angel of any kind, then Shelly for number 10.

----------


## prendrelemick

> Sorry I blew up like that, Mick; I'm very sensitive about my Georgian heritage, particularly our origins as a debtor's colony.



Phew, (Takes off Kevlar boiler suit.) I'm a Yorkshireman - I understand. Here in Merry Old England, Georgian refers to a period, rather than a place.

----------


## Basil

Number 2 isn't Byron, but Shelley is correct for 10.

----------


## prendrelemick

7. Could be refering to Gatsby, so Scott Fitzgerald ?

----------


## Basil

Not Fitzgerald. The first few words of that clue are key.

----------


## prendrelemick

2. Milton.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Not Fitzgerald. The first few words of that clue are key.


Dostoevsky?

----------


## MarkBastable

Incidentally, I'm very interested in the answer to number 4, as that's a pretty accurate summary of what my writing increasingly attempts to achieve.

----------


## Basil

> 2. Milton.


Correct.



> Dostoevsky?


Incorrect. I've changed my mind--it's the last phrase of that quote that is key, not the beginning.

----------


## Basil

I'm really hoping someone will figure out #3. It helps if you realize the speaker is using the terms "bad review" and "advance" rather ironically.

----------


## hawthorns

4. Faulkner?

----------


## prendrelemick

I'm now resorting to listing the usual suspects, and see if any quote fits.

Herman Melville, possible no. 5
Henry James, 
Joseph Heller
james joyce
J D Salinger
John Stienbeck
Stephen King, possible no. 3

7. Ahh, is that Don Quixote? - Cervantes

----------


## Basil

> 4. Faulkner?


Nope.




> 7. Ahh, is that Don Quixote? - Cervantes


It is indeed Cervantes. Just like I said--the very beginning and the very end of that quote are key.  :Tongue: 

Unfortunately, none of the other names you produced are present on the list. Here's a hint: a few of the names that match up with some of these last unanswered clues have been said already, but they were offered for the wrong quote.

----------


## Basil

> *1. "He has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to the dictionary." *Ernest Hemingway*
> 
> *2. "He was a true Poet and of the Devil's party without knowing it." *Milton*
> 
> *3. "About eight years or so ago, Valentine's Day, I seem to remember, you received an extremely bad review…and this review, unlike most bad reviews, came accompanied with a very large advance."
> 
> *4. "What unfolds in his works is not a multitude of characters and fates in a single objective world, illuminated by a single authorial consciousness; rather a _plurality of consciousnesses, with equal rights and each with its own world_, combine but are not merged in the unity of the event."
> 
> *5. "Explaining metaphysics to the nation –
> ...


*****

----------


## prendrelemick

Thanks for the clue, so a bit of reshuffling is in order.

4. Tolstoy.
12 Mark Twain.

----------


## Basil

> Thanks for the clue, so a bit of reshuffling is in order.
> 
> 4. Tolstoy.
> 12 Mark Twain.


No and no...although Mark Twain is the one who said #12--who's he talking about? A statesman once involved in a literary endeavor known for publishing maxims and witty proverbs.

----------


## MarkBastable

> No and no...although Mark Twain is the one who said #12--who's he talking about? A statesman once involved in a literary endeavor known for publishing maxims and witty proverbs.


Franklin?

(It was 'witty' that threw me for a while there...)

----------


## Basil

> Franklin?
> 
> (It was 'witty' that threw me for a while there...)


Yeah, I'm not sure why I was feeling so charitable towards the long deceased. I'm glad you were finally able to see through the mischaracterization, as Benjamin Franklin is the correct answer.

----------


## prendrelemick

My mother (who just knows these things) says Faulkner is number 6.

----------


## jajdude

Seems like #3 could be about Mark Twain. Doubt that is correct though.

----------


## Basil

> My mother (who just knows these things) says Faulkner is number 6.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YoOFIPvj40

That's why in retrospect this was a lousy clue to use--it could only be solved by someone "who just knows these things"; it wasn't figure outable.

Number 3 is not Mark Twain.

I'll post hints for the remaining three quotes later tonight if they remain unsolved. I am mildly surprised that our British members are unfamiliar with #5.

----------


## MarkBastable

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YoOFIPvj40
> 
> That's why in retrospect this was a lousy clue to use--it could only be solved by someone "who just knows these things"; it wasn't figure outable.
> 
> Number 3 is not Mark Twain.
> 
> I'll post hints for the remaining three quotes later tonight if they remain unsolved. I am mildly surprised that our British members are unfamiliar with #5.


Milton.

----------


## Basil

> Milton.


Um, no.

The quote comes from a poem written by a Romantic with a fondness for sprinkling references to other poets of his day throughout his poetry. The poet being referenced had largely stopped writing poems at that time and had instead turned to expounding on literary criticism and metaphysical principles, including one particularly dense and lengthy volume that many readers of the time found impenetrable.

----------


## Basil

> 3. "About eight years or so ago, Valentine's Day, I seem to remember, you received an extremely bad reviewand this review, unlike most bad reviews, came accompanied with a very large advance."


Most 'reviews' don't come with advances, do they? So what you have to ask yourself is...who gets the 'advance'? And what is it for (especially in the context of the 'bad review')?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Most 'reviews' don't come with advances, do they? So what you have to ask yourself is...who gets the 'advance'? And what is it for (especially in the context of the 'bad review')?


Well, yeah. Restating the question isn't much of a clue though. I was hoping for something more along the lines of 'Find the Tyrant King' or "Consider Cambridge but bugger Birmingham'...

----------


## Basil

> Well, yeah. Restating the question isn't much of a clue though.


I thought raising the possibility that someone other than the author would be receiving the 'advance' expanded on the original clue rather significantly. 

There is a series of children's books featuring a kid detective named Encyclopedia Brown and his antagonist, the villainous Bugs Meany. The stories are solvable, with the solution usually hinging on the reader's knowledge of facts such as dolphins are mammals, not fish; or that hard-boiled eggs spin faster than uncooked eggs. I wish I could provide you with a key that would unlock this clue in a similar fashion, but sadly I can't think of one.

----------


## MarkBastable

> I thought raising the possibility that someone other than the author would be receiving the 'advance' expanded on the original clue rather significantly. 
> 
> There is a series of children's books featuring kid detective Encyclopedia Brown and his antagonist, the villainous Bugs Meany. The stories are solvable, with the solution usually relying on the reader's knowledge of facts such as dolphins are mammals, not fish; or that hard-boiled eggs spin faster than uncooked eggs. I wish I could provide you with a key that would unlock this clue in a similar fashion, but sadly I can't think of one.


'Find the Tyrant King' is the central clue in a book I read as a kid, in which the young sleuths had to go to all sorts of London landmarks to solve the mystery. The Tyrant King turned out to be the fossil Tyrannosaurus Rex in the Natural History Museum. 

I loved that book, and I seem to remember buying a Red Rover one-day pass to go by bus to a lot of the places they'd gone to. I don't know what prompted me to do that. I remember that London Transport had some sponsorship thing going on with the book, and it was suggested in the story that the young sleuths managed to visit all these places around London because they had a Red Rover one-day pass to go by...

...HANG ON A MINUTE!

----------


## hawthorns

4. Dostoevsky??

----------


## prendrelemick

> Um, no.
> 
> The quote comes from a poem written by a Romantic with a fondness for sprinkling references to other poets of his day throughout his poetry. The poet being referenced had largely stopped writing poems at that time and had instead turned to ex*pound*ing on literary criticism and metaphysical principles, including one particularly dense and lengthy volume that many readers of the time found impenetrable.



Now, Lets say you're giving out hidden clues. :Smilewinkgrin: 

3. Ezra Pound

----------


## Basil

> 4. Dostoevsky??


Correct! Only two left now...



> Now, Lets say you're giving out hidden clues.
> 
> 3. Ezra Pound


You're giving me waaay too much credit, Mick.

----------


## Basil

> *1. "He has never been known to use a word that might send a reader to the dictionary." *Ernest Hemingway*
> 
> *2. "He was a true Poet and of the Devil's party without knowing it." *Milton*
> 
> *3. "About eight years or so ago, Valentine's Day, I seem to remember, you received an extremely bad review…and this review, unlike most bad reviews, came accompanied with a very large advance."
> 
> *4. "What unfolds in his works is not a multitude of characters and fates in a single objective world, illuminated by a single authorial consciousness; rather a _plurality of consciousnesses, with equal rights and each with its own world_, combine but are not merged in the unity of the event." *Dostoevsky*
> 
> *5. "Explaining metaphysics to the nation – *Coleridge*
> ...


*****

----------


## jajdude

Wild guess on #5 John Donne.

----------


## prendrelemick

By clutching-at-straws-process-of-elimination methodology (ie. we've got Shelly and Keats,) and Byron was a sardonic sod, so Byron for number 5 

I mean the Quote was Byronic, about Wordsworth?

----------


## billl

#3 has a whiff of Dorothy Parker talking to some dude, maybe.

----------


## JuniperWoolf

> The quote comes from a poem written by a Romantic with a fondness for sprinkling references to other poets of his day throughout his poetry. The poet being referenced had largely stopped writing poems at that time and had instead turned to expounding on literary criticism and metaphysical principles, including one particularly dense and lengthy volume that many readers of the time found impenetrable.


Biographia Literaria? Coleridge?

----------


## Basil

Just when I was about to hammer the final nail in this coffin, the corpse has suddenly shifted to the right. What else to do but continue beating him until we know for sure that he's dead?




> Biographia Literaria? Coleridge?


That is correct; Mick also correctly judged the quote to be Byronic.

So that just leaves us this quote, from a 1997 interview, between two Brits:




> "About eight years or so ago, Valentine's Day, I seem to remember, you received an extremely bad review…and this review, unlike most bad reviews, came accompanied with a very large advance."

----------


## prendrelemick

As the renowned carpet bomber of this thead, (as opposed to jajdude the sniper) I shall have yet another wild guess

JK Rowling.

----------


## Basil

> JK Rowling.


Incorrect.

I just read somewhere that this author is known as a "night bachelor". I have no idea what that means, but it sounds pretty wild.

----------


## billl

Martin Amis? (Sometime around _The Information_?)

----------


## Basil

> Martin Amis? (Sometime around _The Information_?)


Nope. Sorry.

These days, this author can be found haunting the neck of the woods of another writer from the list...although I bet nobody accuses _him_ of being an amanuensis for the local blacks.

----------


## prendrelemick

Philip Roth? -his ex wife Claire Bloom gave him the bad review.

----------


## prendrelemick

^ sorry not British.

----------


## jajdude

> jajdude the sniper


I approve of this.

----------


## prendrelemick

Sir Alan Ackbourne? He became a Knight Batchelor on 11 feb 1997




Oh 'eck, wrong date we're looking for a literary figure who was knighted on 14th Feb 1989, are we?



Ahh unless the bad review was a fatwah against Salman Rushdie.


I'm carpet bombing again

----------


## Basil

> Ahh unless the bad review was a fatwah against Salman Rushdie.


You got it. Good job, Mick. I'll post a wrap-up a little later.

----------


## prendrelemick

By dint of lots of guessing I got the most right - I also got the most wrong but never mind .



Here's something we haven't tried before.

Imagine a room with ten people in it. Most are sat in, or on the arms of, comfy chairs and sofas that have been arranged in a half circle around the fire place. The focus of their attention is a young woman stood in front of the fireplace. She is gesticulating wildly, and all the others are shouting at her. 

First, she holds her hands out in front of her, thumbs uppermost and palms together, she turns them outwards.

2. She holds up 5 fingers.
3. She holds up 1 finger.
4. She holds up one hand vertically and the other horizontally across the top of it.
5. She holds up 2 fingers
6. She cups one hand to her ear and gesticulates with the other, making the shape of little waves heading towards her ear.
7. She holds up 3 fingers.
8. She tugs the lobe of her ear
9. She points to her hand
10. She holds up 4 fingers.
11. She holds up one hand vertically and the other horizontally across the top of it again.
12. She holds up 5 fingers
13. She stamps about on the carpet, she shakes her fists aggressively, she draws back her lips to show her teeth are clenched, her brow is furrowed.

She repeats actions number 6 and 13 over and over, finally she points to one of the others and nods.
Then everyone applauds and she sits down. The person she pointed at takes her place.


So, what's going on and what's the answer?

----------


## JuniperWoolf

One hand vertically and the other horizontally across the top of it... like this?:

----------


## prendrelemick

Yes just like that.

----------


## billl

> Imagine a room with ten people in it. Most are sat in, or on the arms of, comfy chairs and sofas that have been arranged in a half circle around the fire place. The focus of their attention is a young woman stood in front of the fireplace. She is gesticulating wildly, and all the others are shouting at her. 
> 
> First, she holds her hands out in front of her, thumbs uppermost and palms together, she turns them outwards.
> 
> 2. She holds up 5 fingers.
> 3. She holds up 1 finger.
> 4. She holds up one hand vertically and the other horizontally across the top of it.
> 5. She holds up 2 fingers
> 6. She cups one hand to her ear and gesticulates with the other, making the shape of little waves heading towards her ear.
> ...


I guess they're playing charades. I don't have a lot of experience with the game, but I think she begins by using her hand(s) to indicate how many letters are in the word (i.e. this word has 5 letters), and then holds one finger up for the first letter in the word, followed by a clue, then she holds up two fingers for the second letter and gives its clue, and so on.

So, right off the bat, we have a five-letter word with a couple T's in it, if things happen to be so straight-forward:

T _ _ T _

At this point, I have to ask about whether or not it might matter which country the players were educated in. I've spent a little time here with some lame and surely wrong ideas about what the clues for letters 2, 3, and 5 might be, but bouncing around in the back of my head are some of my earliest introductions to literacy, which included learning the alphabet "British-style". I might be way off-base here, because I never paid the issue any attention again, once I had gotten the hang of it and later moved on to the "American-style", but at least in early education at that time, British students were taught the letters according to how they _sound_.

For instance, a class of British children practicing the alphabet would pronounce the first four letters "AHH, BUHH, KUHH, DUHH..." and from there I think maybe it was "EH, FUHH, GUHH..." but those last three I'm not so sure about, I might be just imagining those at this point. I do remember, though that the earliest letters sounded a LOT like the beginning of "abracadabra" which was a revelation, and the final letter, of course, is the well-known "zed". Anyhow, I assume all of this to be the case, because it was what I encountered, but it might be the case that my school was out of step with the rest of Britain, maybe this was hippie nonsense or something, I don't know...

And, for the sake of completeness, I should point out that the "American-style" pronunciation of the letters is exactly the one British people know from the movies, songs, TV shows, and news reports that the US has bombarded them with.

So, Mick, do I need to worry about this issue? Has England switched over to the US pronunciation since I was educated there perhaps? Or was I _in fact_ in a progressive hippie school that was totally unrepresentative of Britain all those years ago? (Didn't seem like it.) Or what?

Anyhow, I'm thinking the second letter _might_ be "U", because that's what the other players would call the woman (i.e. _they_ would call _her_ "You").

The third letter might be "N" but I'm really doubtful about that one. By tugging at the ear, she's indicating that her forthcoming clue will "sound like" the third letter (rhyme with it, probably). So, the clue is maybe "hand" or "palm"? Maybe one of those sounds like "N". (American style...?)

Anyhow, IF the second letter were "U", then it's a crossword-type combo that would have a pretty limited number of solutions, I would think...

T U _ T _

"TUFTS"? "TUTTI"? So, I'm probably wrong about these three letters... Unless it is indeed "TUFTS". I wouldn't put it past Mick to use that, I guess. Wool reference?

And I have no idea what the last clue might be. And then the repeating of the two letters over and over, I don't know, maybe that just means the other players had trouble with those two letters?

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

They are playing charades and the answer is (drum roll):

"The Sound and the Fury" ...I think. Am I close?

.

----------


## billl

Gotta Be!


(My fractured understanding of the game is made obvious.)

----------


## prendrelemick

Correct GG. I'm so glad a non brit got it as I thought there might be cultural issues. Billl's mind is endlessly fascinating to me, I know he would've got it if he had set out with the right premise.





> By dint of lots of guessing I got the most right - I also got the most wrong but never mind .
> 
> 
> 
> Here's something we haven't tried before.
> 
> Imagine a room with ten people in it. Most are sat in, or on the arms of, comfy chairs and sofas that have been arranged in a half circle around the fire place. The focus of their attention is a young woman stood in front of the fireplace. She is gesticulating wildly, and all the others are shouting at her. 
> 
> First, she holds her hands out in front of her, thumbs uppermost and palms together, she turns them outwards. *It's a book*
> ...

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

> Correct GG. I'm so glad a non brit got it as I thought there might be cultural issues. Billl's mind is endlessly fascinating to me, I know he would've got it if he had set out with the right premise.


Not so fast Mick, we need to cross at least one cultural divide that stumped me for a moment and that regards the use of the "time out" hand gesture giving away the "The".
I asked the missus if she had ever employed the timeout gesture for "the" and I received an emphatic "are you kidding me? is that how they do it over there!!?"
No wonder we never get past one or two rounds; it takes us half an hour just getting past "The".

Okay, this is my first time to offer up the next game, so let's see how this goes:

Name the character and the book

Clues:
1.	Clue to the book in the lyrics of a Procol Harum song (dont be concerned about deep cuts)
2.	The character must have eaten too much of the magical fruit
3.	Received a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9KniULwvjE singeing
4.	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyzI323zFrs

.

----------


## MarkBastable

> Not so fast Mick, we need to cross at least one cultural divide that stumped me for a moment and that regards the use of the "time out" hand gesture giving away the "The".
> I asked the missus if she had ever employed the timeout gesture for "the" and I received an emphatic "are you kidding me? is that how they do it over there!!?"
> No wonder we never get past one or two rounds; it takes us half an hour just getting past "The".
> 
> Okay, this is my first time to offer up the next game, so let's see how this goes:
> 
> Name the character and the book
> 
> Clues:
> ...


I'd guess it's the Miller in the _Canterbury Tales_. Or, to be more accurate, Nicholas in the Miller's tale in the _Canterbury Tales_.

Incidentally, that T gesture doesn't mean 'time out' in the UK, because we don't have any games in which the participants can stop the clock just because it suits them. So that gesture has only ever been the sign for 'the' in the game Charades.

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

> ...Or, to be more accurate, Nicholas in the Miller's tale in the _Canterbury Tales_.
> 
> Incidentally, that T gesture doesn't mean 'time out' in the UK, because we don't have any games in which the participants can stop the clock just because it suits them. So that gesture has only ever been the sign for 'the' in the game Charades.


You got it; Nicholas and _The Canterbury Tales_ are the correct answers. 
Good job Mark.

Cultural divides, you gotta love 'em. 
Timeouts can be a beating. I recall many frustrating games of tetherball interrupted by the spontaneous time out call at the moment I was delivering the beat down on my opponent and then came instant replay.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyRDM...eature=related


.

----------


## MarkBastable

I've tried to pull albums from a broader range of decades this time. You want the initial letter of the first word of each album's name - and when you have nine (or enough to see where it's going) you can arrange them to make the name of another album.



I think this is probably a collaborative thing, where you post the names of the albums - or the letters - here, and the winner is the first to get the constructed album title.

1...2...3
4...5...6
7...8...9

This may help....

----------


## prendrelemick

5. On the Beach - Neil Young.

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

"This may help".... Frank Zappa _Apostrophe_

.

----------


## prendrelemick

6. Scary Monsters - David Bowie.

----------


## billl

1. Radiohead _OK Computer_
3. U2 _October_

----------


## prendrelemick

> I've tried to pull albums from a broader range of decades this time. You want the initial letter of the first word of each album's name - and when you have nine (or enough to see where it's going) you can arrange them to make the name of another album.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is probably a collaborative thing, where you post the names of the albums - or the letters - here, and the winner is the first to get the constructed album title.
> 
> O...L...O
> S...O...S
> T...C...U
> ...



Thats 4 letters and an apostrophe so far.

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

2. = Led Zeppelin III

.

----------


## prendrelemick

^ Heavens above! I actually owned that one and didn't recognise it.


That number 4 is familiar too - I hate this quiz!

----------


## billl

For Number 4, I've checked: Pulp, Oasis, Blur, Weezer, Primus, and quite a few others from that time period.

Before the latest Zep hint, I had already checked all US and UK Number One Billboard albums in the history of mankind, and none of those have an apostrophe and three O's in the title.

----------


## MarkBastable

I'll give you the year of release for the remaining ones....

4 - 2010
7 - 1967
8 - 1994
9 - 2004

Number 8, actually, is not an album I know, although it is by a big band. I wanted to broaden the reference of the game beyond the stuff I'm personally familiar with. Subsequent research, however, suggests that, although the band's well-known, the album might be a bit obscure. So, here's an alternative Clue 8.




OHHHHHH FFFFFFF....iddlesticks!

I just realised I left a letter out! Damn!

Well, at least you hadn't got so far down the track that you'd've been misled by its absence - I hope. Sorry though. Here's the missing letter....



I should have changed the game, by saying the winner is the person who figures out the missing letter.

----------


## prendrelemick

The alternative 8 is Crosby, Stills and Nash

The extra one is Hard Promises by Tom Petty

----------


## prendrelemick

7. Their satanic family requests - by The Rolling Stones. Which I had never heard of.
9. Up all night by Razor light.
4. Sea of cowards by The Dead Weather.


As you may have gathered I have found a suitable site for this kind of thing.

----------


## MarkBastable

> 7. Their satanic family requests - by The Rolling Stones. Which I had never heard of.
> 9. Up all night by Razor light.
> 4. Sea of cowards by The Dead Weather.
> 
> 
> As you may have gathered I have found a suitable site for this kind of thing.


Their Satanic Majesties Request - but close enough.

What was the site?

----------


## billl

Well, I got it, thanks to Mick and his handy site:

School's Out by Jimmy Reed.

(Mark really put together a wonderful barrel of fun this time!)

----------


## MarkBastable

> Well, I got it, thanks to Mick and his handy site:
> 
> School's Out by Jimmy Reed.
> 
> (Mark really put together a wonderful barrel of fun this time!)


Ah see, there was your mistake when you were going through Billboard Number Ones. An album of the same name by a less hip group hit number two in the US and UK, but reached number one in Canada.

----------


## billl

Yes. Alas, I knew I had cooped myself up with that particular technique--but it was all that Wikipedia had to offer.



EDIT: I'll try to have the next one up reasonably soon... It'll be in the same vein as yours, but it might take some work to keep it from being too easy (or near impossible).

----------


## MarkBastable

> ...it might take some work to keep it from being too easy (or near impossible).



Tellin' me.

----------


## prendrelemick

> Their Satanic Majesties Request - but close enough.
> 
> What was the site?



Amazon. 
By the way what was the cat's eye one?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Amazon. 
> By the way what was the cat's eye one?


You put in the year and then scrolled through every album released?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheshir...link-182_album)

----------


## prendrelemick

No, only the top 100. I do have a life - of sorts.

----------


## MarkBastable

> No, only the top 100. I do have a life - of sorts.


I've often wondered what shepherds do to get to sleep.

----------


## billl

Like the recent puzzles Mark has done, this one involves images that clue one in to particular letters. We're looking for 13 letters this time, and they will be used to form a well-known song title. The images presented here are composites of other images alluded to in the clues:


The first letters of the last names of these *two* authors (one Brit, and one American) provide *two* letters for the solution to the puzzle:




The first letters of the last names of these *three* U.S. authors provide *three* letters for the solution to the puzzle:




The first letters of the last names of these *two* authors (one American, and one Brit) provide *two* letters for the solution to the puzzle:




The first letters of the last names of these *two* British authors provide *two* letters for the solution to the puzzle:




The first letters of the album titles for these *four* album covers provide *four* letters for the solution to the puzzle:




SO, that's 13 letters total. These thirteen letters can be arranged to create the title of what hit pop song?

(Note: the clues refer to the images _below_ them. Also, I'm not entirely sure that each step of this is sufficiently difficult, but I've been wrong before.)

----------


## prendrelemick

Crikey billl, you've been busy.

Is the Brit in the first one Mark Bastable?

----------


## billl

> Is the Brit in the first one Mark Bastable?


I see the resemblance, but no. (Brilliant idea, I must say.)

----------


## MarkBastable

The fourth one is a composite of George Orwell and Virginia Woolf.

And one of the albums is _Abraxas_. 

.

I'd be immensely flattered to feature in a quiz such as this. But it'll never happen.

----------


## jajdude

EA Poe in the one with three? Perhaps Mark Twain as well? 

Maybe Stephen King in the first one?

----------


## billl

> The fourth one is a composite of George Orwell and Virginia Woolf.
> 
> And one of the albums is _Abraxas_. 
> 
> .
> 
> I'd be immensely flattered to feature in a quiz such as this.


Right!




> EA Poe in the one with three? Maybe Stephen King in the first one?


I was hoping someone would say King there (but no, it isn't King, sorry). But you're in the ballpark (these aren't all repeat-Pulitzer-winners here).

No Poe in this--actually, that one with three might be tougher than I think. Even knowing the original pics, I kind of have to work at it to see them in that one... These might require clues, but I'll wait a bit longer.



TO SUM UP, Mark got this one (Orwell and Woolf):



from these


and he got one of the Albums (_Santana's Abraxas_)

Letters so far: O, W, A

----------


## prendrelemick

One of the three is Hemmingway.

----------


## billl

> One of the three is Hemmingway.


YES

...and I thought that might be the hardest one there in that one. (It's the most famous photo of him, I think, so I was just hoping those scraps would click with someone around here.)


Letters so far: O, W, A, H

----------


## MarkBastable

Poe?

Also...




and possibly

----------


## billl

Neither Poe nor Twain feature in any of the images.

However, these two album covers (from _Thriller_ and _Nevermind_) DO feature in the final image. That means that three of four albums have been accounted for. The last album might be the most challenging part of this puzzle (like Abraxas, it's a "classic" LP, but not in the same league sales-wise as these last two).

So, we have:

(*first* image, two authors to go)
1 author (*second* image, two authors to go): *Hemingway*
(*third* image, two authors to go)
2 authors (*fourth* image, completed): *Orwell, Woolf*
3 albums (*fifth* image, one album to go): *Abraxas, Thriller, Nevermind*

Letters so far: O, W, A, H, T, N


Note: Due to differences in the proportions between images, there has been some (generally slight) warping of some original images, in order to completely fit them in the area taken by the other images of the composite. This is analogous to the warping we sometimes see when a panoramic film scene gets squeezed, and suddenly the cowboy hero looks particularly tall and emaciated.

In the case of one of these images, the warping is rather severe, so I'm going to post an alternate form: it's the same composite of the same two images, but this time the images will swap status as "warped" and "non-warped". (This problem could have been avoided with some judicious trimming pre-compositing, but live and learn...)

So, here's the original *third image*, side-by-side with the new version:

----------


## MarkBastable

The problem here, for me, is that I don't actually know what most authors look like. I'd say that if they appeared on the TV, I'd recognise about one in eight of the authors whose books are on the shelf closest to where I'm now sitting.

----------


## billl

REMINDER OF THE PUZZLE



> The first letters of the last names of these *two* authors (one Brit, and one American) provide *two* letters for the solution to the puzzle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first letters of the last names of these *three* U.S. authors provide *three* letters for the solution to the puzzle:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Neither Poe nor Twain *(edit: nor Stephen King)* feature in any of the images.
> 
> So, we have:
> 
> (*first* image, two authors to go)
> 1 author (*second* image, two authors to go): *Hemingway*
> (*third* image, two authors to go)
> 2 authors (*fourth* image, completed): *Orwell, Woolf*
> 3 albums (*fifth* image, one album to go): *Abraxas, Thriller, Nevermind*
> ...


*----------------------------------------------------------------------*



> The problem here, for me, is that I don't actually know what most authors look like. I'd say that if they appeared on the TV, I'd recognise about one in eight of the authors whose books are on the shelf closest to where I'm now sitting.


Yeah--I was wondering if some people around here might have this or that favorite or whatever, and if the problem might be overcome by a group effort. Even still, I think some clues are in order, in order to at least narrow things down.

*SOME CLUES*
*(round one?)*
Pic One (bluish one): As an example of my ignorance of things literary, I was slightly surprised to learn (while researching this puzzle) that the Brit was, in fact, a Brit. (I did read one of his books, years ago, though.)

Pic Two (three-in-one Americans): all three are deceased.

Pic Three (the one with the warping): both living.

Pic Four (the one that we've already gotten):.

Pic Five (four albums): no clues yet, just a mention that a bit of it is legible.

----------


## MarkBastable

> REMINDER OF THE PUZZLE
> 
> 
> Pic Five (four albums): no clues yet, just a mention that a bit of it is legible.



I've been working on the bit of it that's legible for about three hours.

The font puts the album somewhere between 67 and 74, I'd say - and that's supported by the snippets you can see that advise you it's a stereo recording but it won't destroy your mono equipment.

There's a pink bit of writing and a green bit of writing, which are the album title and artist, or vice versa. On the pink bit you can only see the bottom of the letters, which isn't much use. But you can see quite a lot of the green bit, and even some full letters. I'd let you in on what I think legible bits are, but that might prejudice others' perception. However, I am prepared to pool resources on this, because it's bugging the ******* **** out of me.

Hang on.... Got it.

----------


## billl

Nicely done, that's a terrific relief for me.


Letters so far: O, W, A, H, T, N, *I*

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

The Brit in pic 3 is MarkBastable (?)
Looks like his avatar picture.


I gotta say billl, very creative idea.

.

----------


## MarkBastable

> The Brit in pic 3 is MarkBastable (?)
> Looks like his avatar picture.
> 
> 
> I gotta say billl, very creative idea.
> 
> .


Yeah, it's me. Which I saw immediately, which in turn says something about how quickly the human brain can separate the familiar from the unfamiliar, even on so little information. 

So who's the literary chick with the big glasses and the red lipstick, with whom I'm mixed up?

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

Beyond the matching shade of gray, it was the tail of hair coming out of or from behind your left ear and the arcing eyebrow that gave it away.

.

----------


## MarkBastable

_As an example of my ignorance of things literary, I was slightly surprised to learn (while researching this puzzle) that the Brit was, in fact, a Brit._


Is that really as maddeningly unhelpful a clue as it appears, or is there something cunning and cryptic going on?

----------


## billl

Well, he certainly hadn't _always_ been British--that much was quite clear to me.

----------


## prendrelemick

^kazuo ishiguro

----------


## Scheherazade

Is the one with cigarette Salinger? Though smile looks too big for him...

----------


## billl

> ^kazuo ishiguro


Sorry, it isn't him.





> Is the one with cigarette Salinger? Though smile looks too big for him...


Nor him, I'm afraid.


For the record, the letters so far: O, W, A, H, T, N, I, B (out of 13 total letters).

----------


## MarkBastable

> Well, he certainly hadn't _always_ been British--that much was quite clear to me.


T S Eliot?

----------


## billl

> T S Eliot?


More recent, not so high on the "famous" scale, and wrong birth country.

----------


## billl

*IN CASE YOU WANT A CLUE*
(chapter 2)

*PIC ONE:* TWO AUTHORS, one American, one British
One of them has gotten some really, really top rate literary awards. The other might very well have sold more books than all the rest of these guys combined (if we leave "required school texts" out of the equation). I haven't actually done the math, and I might be completely wrong, but that's the idea with him anyhow, moreso than the "literary awards" angle.

*PIC TWO:* Hemingway...

...and TWO MORE AUTHORS (Americans, all three deceased).
Both of these remaining two guys are pretty big deals in literary circles, although one's position among America's 20th-Century greats is probably yet to solidify. And the other guy, I'm a little surprised here, no clues, seriously, how are you all not seeing his face?

*PIC THREE:* Mark...
...and ONE MORE AUTHOR. I really needed the first letter in her last name to complete the puzzle... Still, I think a lot of people would recognize her once they are given the name. Looking at awards, reputation, etc., she's a moderately big deal, at least. She's still around, and has published something notable in the last 10 years (have to admit, though, I hadn't heard of it before just now checking her Wikipedia page).

*EDIT:* Finally, I should mention that all "original" images used for this puzzle (e.g. the Hemingway up there) appeared _very_ early on in image searches for these authors (using bing.com).

----------


## Basil

> So who's the literary chick with the big glasses and the red lipstick, with whom I'm mixed up?


Joyce Carol Oates

----------


## billl

> Joyce Carol Oates


That's right! How'd you get it? Familiar with the photo, or a bunch of trial and error with google/Wikipedia, or something in-between?

I'm worried I might've given out to many clues too soon--but in her case, I didn't really give much of a clue at all.

(The letters so far: O, W, A, H, T, N, I, B, O, with four more to go)

----------


## Basil

> That's right! How'd you get it?


The glasses.

----------


## billl

Here it is:


very writerly--but how about this "less popular" image of her from earlier in her career:

----------


## MarkBastable

Franzen, in the three-in-one, I think.

Koontz, for the populist?

----------


## MarkBastable

> Joyce Carol Oates


Not for the first time, I was mixed up with a woman without really knowing who she was.

Never heard of her.

Then again, to be fair, I don't suppose she's ever heard of me.

----------


## prendrelemick

Tom Clancy in the first pic.

----------


## billl

> Tom Clancy in the first pic.


Yes !

.

EDIT: REMAINDER OF THE PUZZLE




> The first letters of the last names of these *two* authors (one Brit, and one American) provide *two* letters for the solution to the puzzle:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The first letters of the last names of these *three* U.S. authors provide *three* letters for the solution to the puzzle:


The first of these pics features Tom Clancy AND:
a young-ish photo of a living British author who has gotten some really, really top rate literary awards. An earlier clue:



> As an example of my ignorance of things literary, I was slightly surprised to learn (while researching this puzzle) that the Brit was, in fact, a Brit. (I did read one of his books, years ago, though.)


The second pic features Ernest Hemingway AND:
two more deceased Americans.
the clue:



> Both of these remaining two guys are pretty big deals in literary circles, although one's position among America's 20th-Century greats is probably yet to solidify. And the other guy, I'm a little surprised here, no clues, seriously, how are you all not seeing his face?


The following are not in the images: Kazuo Ishiguro, J.D. Salinger, T.S. Eliot, Koontz, Archer, Jonathan Franzen.

(Although Franzen was a close one! Not dead enough, though.)

The letters so far: O, W, A, H, T, N, I, B, O, C, with three more to go.

----------


## billl

*MORE CLUES
*
I've already mentioned that the British writer in the first photo has won some rather impressive awards. It might also help to know that that particular writer, along with the _other_ black-and-white photographed writer yet to be named (the one featured in the second photo along with Hemingway), can be found on the Modern Library's List of 100 Best Novels (of the 20th-Century).

The writer in the color photo that is barely revealed in the second image hasn't won any of these major awards, and isn't on the Modern Library list. _Time_ magazine, however, gave one of his novels a place in their "100 Best Novels (since _Time_ began, in 1923...)" list. I think he's wearing a t-shirt or a sweatshirt or something.

----------


## MarkBastable

Do we need a K?

----------


## billl

No, don't need a "K".

You know, the Brit with the fancy awards: well, I'm not kidding around, he has won the Booker Prize and the Nobel. The B&W American won the National Book Award. The color-photo American hasn't gotten anything like those, but he sometimes makes up for it in the size of his books.

----------


## MarkBastable

Naipaul.

(I think you compressed him a bit, East to West. Which is probably quite appropriate.)





> No, don't need a "K".
> 
> You know, the Brit with the fancy awards: well, I'm not kidding around, he has won the Booker Prize and the Nobel. The B&W American won the National Book Award. The color-photo American hasn't gotten anything like those, but he sometimes makes up for it in the size of his books.

----------


## billl

> Naipaul.
> 
> (I think you compressed him a bit, East to West. Which is probably quite appropriate.)


Heh! Wow, yeah--it seems to matter less I guess when I'm mixing them together and have the original image in hand.

The letters so far: O, W, A, H, T, N, I, B, O, C, N

Two more to go, both in that deceased-American-three-in-one!
Looking for a pop song title (No "K" in it, incidentally).

----------


## billl

A book by one of the two is often required reading for American high schoolers. A book by the other one is the sort of thing American university students sometimes read on their own and then tell everyone about it.

----------


## MarkBastable

On the basis of nothing at all - Salinger.

----------


## billl

Close about the "nothing", perhaps... Just kidding! Really, it's the opposite (as far as I can see). 

This is in danger of becoming some sort of endless joke, where I post these clues, and like no one can see them, dude.

(Note: the above is an assembly of clues, not a case of me taking on some sort of 'attitude'.)

----------


## jajdude

Is F for F Scott Fitzgerald in there ?

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

That^ or possibly William Faulkner? 
I'm on my last Newcastle Brown ale and it leads me to believe that one of the mustachio's and one eye is Faulkner's.

----------


## billl

No, sorry, you two--we aren't looking for the letter "F" here. We're looking for a vowel and a (non-"F") consonant. (Glad to hear the beer is helping your eye focus on that guy, though...)

Also, I might've set people on the wrong track with the "often studied in high school" thing. I think it is "sometimes" studied there, and it certainly makes a lot of "recommended reading" lists for summer vacation I think, and is looked at in University as well. But it isn't nearly as common as Fitzgerald or Salinger, or even Faulkner. I haven't read it myself, but it's considered a classic, and I am certainly aware of its cultural importance, and I can imagine it would be a popular choice if a class wanted to cover its "diversity" bases.

The other guy we're looking for has a thread about one of his recent books popping up in LitNet "New Posts" listings now and then in recent days.

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

Billl, now I'm starting on a Warsteiner Weissbier grabbing at straws. James Joyce came to mind, but I'm not seeing the distinctive glasses or eye patch.
That's my last guess for the night. We'll let the boys on the other side of the pond take over for the night shift.
Goodnight.

----------


## prendrelemick

What about O Henry. He's a black and white mustachioed writer.



Is Orhan Pamuk the other one? 


edit: Ah no, he's not American enough or dead enough.

----------


## MarkBastable

> What about O Henry. He's a black and white mustachioed writer.
> 
> 
> 
> Is Orhan Pamuk the other one? 
> 
> 
> edit: Ah no, he's not American enough or dead enough.



Hailey?

----------


## billl

No, no, no.

Just a reminder: the one you're currently stabbing at made it onto this (rather lengthy) list:
http://www.modernlibrary.com/top-100/100-best-novels/

The other guy, well, he writes big American novels--and while the literary merit and novelty of them make him something special perhaps, it has to be said that, sales-wise, he's done all right, but is still a _pale_ imitation of Stephen King.

----------


## MarkBastable

Irving! Miller! Herbert! Shute! Hubbard! Pynchon!


Wait a minute. _Hubbard_? In the readers' list of best 100 novels? I despair.

----------


## billl

Both Lists!




> Irving! Miller! Herbert! Shute! Hubbard! Pynchon!
> 
> 
> Wait a minute. _Hubbard_? In the readers' list of best 100 novels? I despair.


Quite a Top Ten for the readers, actually. What are the odds that _both_ of those groups would infiltrate the process? (Seven out of the Top Ten!)

----------


## jajdude

Well, I give up, those pictures are wrong. Not like we're all really familiar with pictures of writers either as Mark may have said. My eyes hurt trying and I could only guess really on the few I thought were maybe in there. Good puzzle though. Curious to know the other letters and the song. 

Damn this game, I say, damn it all the way.

----------


## prendrelemick

At last, a red haired dead American author with glasses. Also the "endless joke" clue helped.

David Foster Wallace.

----------


## billl

> At last, a red haired dead American author with glasses. Also the "endless joke" clue helped.
> 
> David Foster Wallace.


Yes! 



I have to admit, Mr. Wallace could've used a few extra pixels. I figured him having such a recent/modern-looking photo AND being dead would be enough to get him figured out--but that's easy for _me_ to think, starting from the original. Still, took a lot of clues... Great persistence everyone!

...and now just one more that none of you can see!

The letters so far: O, W, A, H, T, N, I, B, O, C, N, W (a hit pop song, not current)

----------


## prendrelemick

We can't see him because he is an Invisable Man.

Ralph Ellison.

----------


## billl

That's it, Mick. Ralph Ellison... Sorry everyone, I think I might've really underestimated just how long a Top 100 list can actually be, I think. (Also, for clarification, it isn't the H.G. Wells type of invisible, in case some people aren't familiar.)



O, W, A, H, T, N, I, B, O, C, N, W, E 

(alphabetized)

A, B, C, E, H, I, N, N, O, O, T, W, W

Rearrange the letters to spell *the title of a hit pop song*, not current...

----------


## Gilliatt Gurgle

billl,
I spent a little time scrambling letters this morning.
I cut out letters so I could slide them around qucikly.
Each combination was typed, but nothing translated into a popular song I've heard of.
Nevertheless, since they were already typed, I figure I would share the thought process.
"Bow to new China" and "Chow in new boat" got me excited for a moment.

Who can win ebot?
Bonawone witch
Bow to new China
No cow bath wine
No white cow ban
Wow, Annie Botch!
We cant win hobo
Chow in new boat

.

----------


## billl

Gilliat, that is absolutely fantastic, what a selection. This puzzle is very much on the verge of being solved by someone, and it'll likely be because of your labor on that part right there.

----------


## prendrelemick

> Gilliat, that is absolutely fantastic, what a selection. This puzzle is very much on the verge of being solved by someone, and it'll likely be because of your labor on that part right there.


Are you embedding clues again billl ?

----------


## billl

It'd be a mistake to make a lot of hay about clues in that post, Mick. There's only one there, and it's pretty indirect, although the rest of it looks "clue-y", I admit. 

Actually, I am, at this moment, NOT providing two clues that would possibly make this all too easy (but would make me look "clever"). Instead, here is an official clue that might be OK, I guess:

Longest word(s) in the song title = three letters long.

----------


## MarkBastable

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swQi4CAzmrA



If that's it, I should say that I got it by a process of rearrangement and google, because I'm not sure I've ever heard of the song.


And this is probably why...


_[The single] went on to reach number one in the USA and number 45 in the UK in 1982..._

----------


## billl

> And this is probably why...
> 
> 
> _[The single] went on to reach number one in the USA and number 45 in the UK in 1982..._


Yeah, that's it (for the record: Men At Work's "Who Can It Be Now")--and I'm surprised at it only reaching 45 in the UK, that's a crime. Come on, they aren't Americans, just like you guys!

----------


## MarkBastable

What did you use to make the pictures?

----------


## billl

> What did you use to make the pictures?


A couple years ago (or so?) I encountered this "demonstration" called Grids Of Lines. 

http://demonstrations.wolfram.com/GridsOfLines/

It's free to download the player, and there's tons of other interesting things to mess around with--but this one in particular got me thinking… What if, instead of black and white, I used images? I wanted to see if it was possible to simultaneously recognize two images in the same space.

Earlier this year, I realized that 1) finally upgrading my Mac to a particular OS (Snow Leopard) would be extremely inexpensive, and 2) it would come with a suite of professional-grade programming tools, absolutely free.

So, after a month of reviewing "how to program" stuff (I used to do it as a hobby back in the day), my second "interesting" project was to make this image compositing program, based on that grid demo. The most difficult parts are taken care of by the amazing programming environment, and the concept is pretty straightforward--but it did take some time to find some shortcuts and get little technicalities ironed out.

Anyhow, this has been pretty fun finally using it here for the puzzles (it's been on my agenda for a while now), and in some cases it seemed to work pretty well. The needs of the letter-scramble sort of "forced" things in a couple cases, and there was the warping issue, as well, so… But finding a "right" balance of images ended up making it a decent challenge in each case--the roughest part was our limited knowledge of author portraits, of course. 

By the way--images made from 3 or 4 originals are actually the result of combining two, and then combining that result with another image (or another combination of two images). So, if you look at the top-left corner area of the 4-album image, you might be able to recognize how Thriller and Abraxas were combined together before being mixed with the other combo-image (which had slightly more narrow gridding).

Anyhow, some of them I really thought were pretty nice-looking. Portraits have certain obvious conventions, but they are an "artistic" form, and so combining them creates some nice "artistic accidents", when the mix is just right. I thought the Orwell/Woolf combo was beautiful, and the three-in-one looked even more like some kind of "difficult" cubist painting.

----------


## Basil

Ahh, Men At Work...featuring Colin Hay.

Your use of the word _hay_ was obviously a hint, but all it did was fool me into thinking that the word _cow_ was in the song title.

----------


## billl

> Ahh, Men At Work...featuring Colin Hay.
> 
> Your use of the word _hay_ was obviously a hint, but all it did was fool me into thinking that the word _cow_ was in the song title.


Also, "It's a Mistake" and the earlier lame attempt to paint Gilliat as just one of a group of Men At Work on the solution.

I thought it was a pretty lucky break when I started putting names and faces together and "Who can it be now" eventually presented itself as a possibility!

----------


## MarkBastable

You're looking for a placename that's the title of a novel. As ever, I can't tell whether this is much too easy or completely impossible.

----------


## billl

> You're looking for a placename that's the title of a novel. As ever, I can't tell whether this is much too easy or completely impossible.


To begin with, I need to point to the narrow *black bar* near the end, right between the "n" with an umlaut over it and the white "s" at the end… It's *just part of* the image cut out for *the "s"*, i.e. it is a section of black bordering, not an "i" or "l"--but it did have me scratching my head for a minute, so in case anyone else wonders about it…

So, here's the letters I see. The ones I recognize are all letters from the printed name of a band, on the cover of an album…

1. "S" from a Genesis album called "The Lamb Lies DOwn On Broadway".

2. "B" It's backwards, and I'm pretty sure it is from "ABBA" don't know which album yet.

3. "P"

4. "S" from Aerosmith. "Toys in the Attic" album maybe?

5. "K" for Pink Floyd, definitely off of the album called "The Wall"

6. "c" and this one is on the tip of my brain, but I haven't pulled it yet. (Sonic Youth? EDIT: no, I don't think so...)

7. "A" is from Green Day's album called "America Is It!"

8. "s" is from the band named "Oasis", not sure which album.

9. "n" is from Spinal Tap, I guess it would necessarily be from their second album, "Breaking Like The Wind"

My gut is initially telling me that we are going to be using the first letter of the band names to solve this one, because tracking down the albums might lead to more than one use of the particular form/font of the letter. Until I've given this strategy a fair shot, I'm not going to bother with finding the album names.

Anyhow, so far, I have
Genesis, Abba, Aerosmith, Pink Floyd, Green Day, Oasis, and Spinal Tarp, with three unknown.

initial letters = *A, A, G, G, O, P, S,* with 3 and 6 to go.

----------


## MarkBastable

Damn. Much too easy then.

They're all (nearly all) logos that were used over some time, rather than for one album - because, as you say, it would have been cruel to expect people to find the specific album.

I was going to do something with Wolfram, but having downloaded it, I couldn't figure out how to make it work.

----------


## billl

> Damn. Much too easy then.
> 
> They're all (nearly all) logos that were used over some time, rather than for one album - because, as you say, it would have been cruel to expect people to find the specific album.
> 
> I was going to do something with Wolfram, but having downloaded it, I couldn't figure out how to make it work.


Number 3 looks Led Zeppelinny, but I couldn't find an example, so... Maybe not. Number 6, man, maybe I'm just imagining that I know it.

RE: the Wolfram download (CDF Player)

I just now downloaded it myself (I used to have it, but ditched it for disk space a while back), and I also had trouble with it. Basically, once you start it up, it expects us to choose a CDF document to view. But we don't have any CDF documents on our computer yet, and the program doesn't seem to be pointing to any, or suggesting how to get them. (I think the idea is that this is _supposed_ to be like Adobe PDF reader or something, which similarly wouldn't be suggesting links for pdf files. But it really hasn't quite reached that level of usage...)

So, I went back in this thread and clicked on the link I had posted a few posts ago, visited that webpage, and downloaded the demonstration for Grids and Lines from there. The link to download it is on the right side of the page, look for "Download Demonstration as CDF »"... 

There are also more Demonstration pages right below that button/link ("Related Demonstrations"), and you can really get yourself completely overwhelmed by clicking on TOPICS at the top, and then browsing all of the available demonstrations.

ANYHOW, after downloading any one of these, you'll end up with a file of type ".cdf" (e.g. GridsOfLines.cdf). It might be on your desktop, or in a "Downloads" folder somewhere, wherever downloads usually end up for you probably... All that remains to be done is to open that file using the player.

----------


## jajdude

A, A, G, G, O, P, S plus 2 more... looks like Galapogos. Guessing the Led Zeppelin was right. And whatever number 6 is, the band/artist starts with O. 

Just discovered it's a Kurt Vonnegut novel. 

Credit goes to billl of course.

----------


## MarkBastable

> A, A, G, G, O, P, S plus 2 more... looks like Galapogos. Guessing the Led Zeppelin was right. And whatever number 6 is, the band/artist starts with O. 
> 
> Just discovered it's a Kurt Vonnegut novel. 
> 
> Credit goes to billl of course.


Galap*A*gos. 



The missing one is Atomic Kitten. I thought that might throw you.

Over to you, j.

----------


## jajdude

Ah, spelling thing. Figure billl did the main work if he wants to do next one.

----------


## billl

I can try to get something together if you want, jajdude. I might take a little while, I don't have anything in mind. But it's the weekend, which sometimes doesn't see a lot of action with these, so maybe that's OK.

But if anybody wants to jump in with a puzzle, please feel free to do so.

----------


## MarkBastable

Here's an old-fashioned one.

Eleven books, five films and four songs with colours in the title. If it proves difficult, I'll tell you which is which. But given the likely colours, there aren't many choices as to which letter is the colour, so it might not be as trying as it looks.



ACOBMCGCYFAGEAHHGWMVRRWROTPSSGTWTCITB(TAWWM)RSTCPTLHMTRATBTSLTSCTC:WVWWF

----------


## Scheherazade

ACO - *A Clockwork Orange*BM - *Blue Moon*CGCYFAGEAH - *Green Eggs and Ham*HGWMV - *How Green Was My Valley*RRWROTPSSGTWTCITB(TAWWM)RSTCP - *The Colour Purple*TLHMTRATBTSL - *The Scarlet Letter*TSCTC:WVWWF - *White Fang*

----------


## prendrelemick

15. The Red and the Black.
10. Soylent Green.
3. Charlotte Grey.
8. Red Red Wine.
14. The Lavender Hill Mob.
12. (The Angels Want to Wear My) Red Shoes

----------


## MarkBastable

Good start. I will just say that when you come to add up the songs and books and movies, you'll find that one of these, though it works, isn't right.

----------


## Calidore

9. Riders of the Purple Sage

----------


## Scheherazade

It might be 'Blue Moon' that doesn't work.

----------


## MarkBastable

> It might be 'Blue Moon' that doesn't work.


Actually, I'm going to give you Blue Moon, as I've just realised that the book title I meant it to be is actually a partial subtitle.


ACO - A Clockwork Orange 
BM - Blue Moon 
CG - Charlotte Grey
*CY 
FA* 
GEAH - Green Eggs and Ham 
HGWMV - How Green Was My Valley 
RRW - Red Red Wine
ROTPS - Riders of the Purple Sage
SG - Soylent Green
*TWTCITB* 
(TAWWM)RS - (The Angels Wanna Wear My) Red Shoes
TCP - The Colour Purple 
TLHM - The Lavender Hill Mob
TRATB - The Red and the Black
TSL - The Scarlet Letter 
*TSC 
TC:W 
VW* 
WF - White Fang

----------


## jajdude

(I guess) That's why they call it the blues (Elton John) ?

----------


## MarkBastable

Yep....

----------


## Basil

TSC = The Silver Chair?

----------


## Annamariah

TC:W = Three Colors: White?

----------


## MarkBastable

Yes and yes.

----------


## MystyrMystyry

Chrome Yellow

Forever Amber

----------


## MarkBastable

ACO - A Clockwork Orange 
BM - Blue Moon 
CG - Charlotte Grey
CY - Chrome Yellow
FA - Forever Amber
GEAH - Green Eggs and Ham 
HGWMV - How Green Was My Valley 
RRW - Red Red Wine
ROTPS - Riders of the Purple Sage
SG - Soylent Green
TWTCITB - That's Why Thay Call It the Blues
(TAWWM)RS - (The Angels Wanna Wear My) Red Shoes
TCP - The Colour Purple 
TLHM - The Lavender Hill Mob
TRATB - The Red and the Black
TSL - The Scarlet Letter 
TSC - The Silver Chair
TC:W - Three Colours: White
*VW* 
WF - White Fang 


One song left. I'll give it twenty-four hours.

----------


## jajdude

Well Mark, it must be Vanna White. Wait, is she a song? She sure looks like one..

----------


## billl

> Well Mark, it must be Vanna White. Wait, is she a song? She sure looks like one..


http://www.amazon.com/Vanna-White-Ma...8236599&sr=1-7

?

----------


## MarkBastable

The remaining one is *Violet Wine*.

Without having counted up the right answers, I think Scheh's next.

----------


## Scheherazade

A very easy one to revive the thread.

Books... 

1. SAS

2. PAP

3. MP

4. NA

5. P

----------


## Calidore

Hey, I can do this one!

1. Sense and Sensibility

2. Pride and Prejudice

3. Mansfield Park

4. Northanger Abbey

5. Persuasion

 :Wink:  back atcha.

----------


## Scheherazade

Your turn, Calidore  :Smile:

----------


## Calidore

One more try...

TV

1. TOL

2. OSB

3. T

4. AHP

5. TFTC

6. NG

----------


## Scheherazade

Uh-oh. TV is not my strong suit... Hope someone can tackle these!

----------


## Calidore

I will be very disappointed if Pendragon doesn't get them.

----------


## Calidore

Gah! Screwed up clue #1, but it's fixed now.

----------


## Scheherazade

Ohhh, are they all sci-fi/fantasy themed?

----------


## Scheherazade

> Gah! Screwed up clue #1, but it's fixed now.


Now I know why I couldn't guess them!  :Tongue:

----------

