# Reading > Forum Book Club >  February '11 Reading: The Adventures of Augie March

## Scheherazade

*In February we will be reading The Adventures of Augie March by Saul Bellow.

Please post your comments and questions in this thread.*

----------


## Sancho

Hey! I get to comment first, even though I dont really know what Im talking about. 

I read this book six or seven years ago and I dont have a copy close at hand, so this is a paraphrase rather than a direct quote, but I use this idea all the time, particularly in a tough neighborhood:

_Even if I dont know what Im doing, I act like I do._

Sorry about savaging Augies words, but they are words to live by.

----------


## papayahed

After I voted I remembered that I have already read a short story by Saul Bellow so this won't count in the challenge. Dang. I'm still in though.

----------


## Mutatis-Mutandis

Are you reading it in February or March?

----------


## kasie

Are you deliberately trying to confuse us all? Yes, of course you are!

Pity _DQ_ lost the toss - I have a copy of that but will have to aquire the Bellow, first I will have read of his for some forty years. Didn't care for him way back then, but I'll give him another go.

----------


## Mutatis-Mutandis

> Are you deliberately trying to confuse us all? Yes, of course you are!


No. The OP originally said: 




> *In March we will be reading The Adventures of Augie March by Saul Bellow.
> 
> Please post your comments and questions in this thread.*


I was a bit befuddled. Scher has obviously changed it  :Thumbsup: .

----------


## Sancho

This _is_ getting confusing. _Augie March_ in February and then in March something else. Also confusing is _DQ_. The man from La Mancha is _Don Quixote_. DQ is the place where I get a _Country Basket_ and an ice-cream treat called _The Blizzard_ - Mmmm, with M&Ms and little chocolate sprinkles. Wait! And sometimes Heath Bar Crunchies. Wait  wait  wait, also some Oreo Cookie Crumbles. Yummy.

Explanation: In certain parts of the USA (including every single wide spot in the road in Texas), The DQ is _The Dairy Queen_. Its usually a red and white, barn-shaped building and is a happy little burger joint and soda fountain.

Dang it. Off topic again.

----------


## papayahed

> Explanation: In certain parts of the USA (including every single wide spot in the road in Texas), The DQ is _The Dairy Queen_. Its usually a red and white, barn-shaped building and is a happy little burger joint and soda fountain.




Doh, I loved to get a chocolate dipped vanilla cone with, of course, sprinkles. Then we moved closer to a Baskin Robbins which seemed a little more high brow and I graduated to the double scoop -1 scoop chocolate chip 1 scoop mint chocolate chip.

----------


## Mutatis-Mutandis

> This _is_ getting confusing. _Augie March_ in February and then in March something else. Also confusing is _DQ_. The man from La Mancha is _Don Quixote_. DQ is the place where I get a _Country Basket_ and an ice-cream treat called _The Blizzard_ - Mmmm, with M&Ms and little chocolate sprinkles. Wait! And sometimes Heath Bar Crunchies. Wait  wait  wait, also some Oreo Cookie Crumbles. Yummy.
> 
> Explanation: In certain parts of the USA (including every single wide spot in the road in Texas), The DQ is _The Dairy Queen_. Its usually a red and white, barn-shaped building and is a happy little burger joint and soda fountain.
> 
> Dang it. Off topic again.


 :FRlol:

----------


## Sancho

> Doh, I loved to get a chocolate dipped vanilla cone with, of course, sprinkles. Then we moved closer to a Baskin Robbins which seemed a little more high brow and I graduated to the double scoop -1 scoop chocolate chip 1 scoop mint chocolate chip.


Mmm-hmm, and let’s don’t forget Dunkin Donuts. They’ve got good coffee _and_ donuts. I can get all hopped up on sugar and caffeine there.

Oh yes, Augie,




> I am an American, Chicago born—Chicago, that somber city—


Chicago, now I’m really getting hungry. Mutatis-Mutandi, you're from Illinois, help me out, I need an Uno’s pizza.

----------


## Mutatis-Mutandis

> Chicago, now Im really getting hungry. Mutatis-Mutandi, you're from Illinois, help me out, I need an Unos pizza.


I live by two  :FRlol: .

----------


## Dark Muse

The book started out slowly for me. There was something about the narration of the story which I found at first a bit awkward to read difficult to follow and track what was happening and the time frame in which it was happening, but I think I am getting more into the rhythm of it now and the story is starting to pick up pace a bit more for me and becoming more clear. I am still not entirely sure just how I feel about the narrative voice. I have really enjoyed thus far reading all about Einhorn.

----------


## caspian

For those who can't find a copy. Here's the link you can read it online http://www.onread.com/reader/1414481

I've only read 10 pages, so far I like it.
Grandma is from Odessa -the city I know. And occasionally you need to understand her Russian talking to get the funny touch.

----------


## iamnobody

Thanks for that! I ordered my copy, but it hasn't arrived yet.

----------


## Dark Muse

I find that Mrs. Renling's realtionship with Augie is a bit disconcerting at times. She seems to be over involved in his sex life in a way that at times seems to border a bit upon the perverse. She somewhat reminds me of those mothers that become so protective of thier children, that relationship almost borders upon the erotic, and crosses a boundary that is not natural. She is somewhat obsessed with the idea that every woman who he gets involved with is some kind of whore. She even offers him to give him money for prostitutes as a way to protect him from becoming involved in some floozy girlfriend becasue she seems to view every woman that comes near him as having some sort of design to set out to get knocked up by him and ruin his life.

----------


## papayahed

I have to admit I'm not crazy about the writing style and I'm only on chapter 2.

----------


## Dark Muse

> I have to admit I'm not crazy about the writing style and I'm only on chapter 2.


That was my first impression early on in the book as well, but for me it did get better or perhaps I just became more accustumed to it as I read on. The book started out a bit slowly for me, but I am starting to enjoy more now.

----------


## bouquin

I'm on Chapter XII. I love the parts about Augie's adventures ..but I tend to just speed along over the extremely detailed physical descriptions and analogies with religion and mythology! 

Why is it that Augie refuses the Renlings' adoption proposal but says yes to Joe Gorman's scheme of smuggling people over the border from Canada?

I found this discussion guide:
http://us.penguingroup.com/static/rg...gie_march.html

----------


## Scheherazade

Just managed to get my copy from the library; hoping to start it tonight.

----------


## Dark Muse

> Why is it that Augie refuses the Renlings' adoption proposal but says yes to Joe Gorman's scheme of smuggling people over the border from Canada?


It is my impression that it is a matter of pride which causes him to turn down the adoption proposal. I do not think he liked the idea of the Renlings viewing him as if he were an orphan. He has a family of his own and I though it may not be much of one in the eyes of most, I don't think he liked the thought of renouncing his family so to speak in favor of the Renlings. 

He did not want to become Augie Renling, and be bond to them in such a way. As well it might in part be because he did not want to give up his sense of independence by inviting them to take such a part in his life and giving them so much control over himself.

----------


## caspian

"All the influences were lined up waiting for me. I was born, and there they were to form me, which is why I tell you more of them than of myself."
I don't know if i should blame my migraine or some influences are really too detailed. Einhom, dingbat bored me to death.

I loved Anna's addiction "to bother mirrors with her looks".* :Biggrin: 
I think, in serious fiction humor works as a pain killer and helps a reader to avoid drowning in drama. From this aspect I like Augie March's humorous language as much as I do "The catcher in the rye", "The prayer for Owen Meany", "Lolita".

Just want to share some funny quotes that made me laugh. :Biggrin: 

"Which all goes' to show how you couldn't avoid the question of inheritance. Was the old Commissioner fond of me? While Mrs. Einhom was a kindly woman ordinarily, now and again she gave me a glance that suggested Sarah and the son of Hagar. "

"Occasionally I got into hot water by bringing a book she didn't want. "How many times do I have to tell you if it doesn't say roman (novel) *I don't want it? You didn't look inside. Are your fingers too weak to open the book? Then they should be too weak to play ball or pick your nose. For that you've got strength!"





> Thanks for that! I ordered my copy, but it hasn't arrived yet.


 :Smile:  you're welcome

----------


## Dark Muse

This story has been rather rocky for me. It started out really slow but than as I continued it began to pick up more, particularly when it reached the part about the Einhom's but sense than reading it has been like a roller coaster ride. Now and than I will come to a part which really peeks and I will really get into, but than it will plummet into a screeching halt and I find myself just having to slough through just to move on to something else. 

I really enjoyed the part all about Mimi and Pedlla and a part of me really wanted to see Augie and Mimi get together even if I knew that could never really happen because of the way Mimi was I do not think she would in fact ever agree to marry Augie. And though I think it was pretty rotten how Simon treated him and how they all just assumed he had to be sleeping with Mimi, I was glad that his ties to Lucy and her family were severed. 

I find his ventured with the eagle and Thea now to be quite amusing, and I love the fact that he calls the bird Calligua, but I have to say it is now starting to drag on a bit longer than needed I think.

----------


## bouquin

> It is my impression that it is a matter of pride which causes him to turn down the adoption proposal. I do not think he liked the idea of the Renlings viewing him as if he were an orphan. He has a family of his own and I though it may not be much of one in the eyes of most, I don't think he liked the thought of renouncing his family so to speak in favor of the Renlings. 
> 
> He did not want to become Augie Renling, and be bond to them in such a way. As well it might in part be because he did not want to give up his sense of independence by inviting them to take such a part in his life and giving them so much control over himself.




I'm of the same reasoning but at the same time I could not fathom how Augie could have thought that he'd be his own man going along with Joe Gorman; he would only have served as the henchman. He would have become a felon, a criminal; he could have gone to prison or gotten killed, etc. Fortunately, circumstances separated them before they could actually carry out their mischief. How could that have been better than being adopted by the Renlings?

Huck Finn or Augie March?

----------


## Dark Muse

> I'm of the same reasoning but at the same time I could not fathom how Augie could have thought that he'd be his own man going along with Joe Gorman; he would only have served as the henchman. He would have become a felon, a criminal; he could have gone to prison or gotten killed, etc. Fortunately, circumstances separated them before they could actually carry out their mischief. How could that have been better than being adopted by the Renlings?
> 
> Huck Finn or Augie March?


I do not think that Augie thought that far ahead. Also I do not think that the involvement with Joe Gorman should be seen per sea as an alternative to the Renlings. I think those two events are separate from each other. Augie did not necessarily choose Joe Germon over the Relings. He simply knew he did not want to be adoptive by the Renlings, and becasue of this factor he thus lost his position with the Renglings which had placed him in a position of needing money. 

Joe Gormon presenting to Augie an opportunity to make money. Nor do I necessarily think that Augie really intended to stay with Joe Gorman he just agreed to work with him on this particular job of which he was reluctantly talked into.

----------


## bouquin

> I do not think that Augie thought that far ahead. Also I do not think that the involvement with Joe Gorman should be seen per sea as an alternative to the Renlings. I think those two events are separate from each other. Augie did not necessarily choose Joe Germon over the Relings. He simply knew he did not want to be adoptive by the Renlings, and becasue of this factor he thus lost his position with the Renglings which had placed him in a position of needing money. 
> 
> Joe Gormon presenting to Augie an opportunity to make money. Nor do I necessarily think that Augie really intended to stay with Joe Gorman he just agreed to work with him on this particular job of which he was reluctantly talked into.



Augie met Joe again - and quite by chance - months after his separation with the Renlings so yes, it does seem that Augie did not purposefully choose the Joe Gorman involvement as an alternative to the Renling adoption. But based on how he said yes to one & no to the other, what do you think does this say about his character and sense of morality?

Thea or Stella?




_________________
Currently reading: _Wide Sargasso Sea_ (Jean Rhys)

----------


## Dark Muse

> Augie met Joe again - and quite by chance - months after his separation with the Renlings so yes, it does seem that Augie did not purposefully choose the Joe Gorman involvement as an alternative to the Renling adoption. But based on how he said yes to one & no to the other, what do you think does this say about his character and sense of morality?
> 
> Thea or Stella?



The one thing of which Augie struggles with the most throughout the book is trying to define himself through his own means. Every where he turns it gets caught up in other people's plans for him. And the one thing which Augie does not want is fit into someone else's mold of who and what he should be. In the cases of both the Renlings and Thea, this is what was at risk of happening. If he had said use to the adoption, than he would have to become the Renlings idea of him, and follow their plan for what they think he should do with his life. It would be like having to forfeit his own identity to them and become something he is not. 

He also runs into this trouble when he gets involved with Thea. Thea wants Augie to fit into her plans of what she thinks Augie should be, of what she wants Augie to be. She has already scripted his life and future for him and expects him to act out that role which she wrote for him. In spite of Augie's love for Thea, he does not want to continue to act out Thea's vision of him. I think this is part of what leads him to being drawn to Stella. Augie was unable to willfully escape Thea, but Stella offered him the opportunity to break free. 

While neither Joe Gorman or Stella may not have been necessarily "better" choices for him than the Renlings or Thea, and while both of these options did place him in a perilous circumstance, and perhaps were morally questionable, the one thing Joe and Stella did not ask of Augie was that he in fact give them himself. They wanted his help but they did not have predetermined designs on his future or his identity. In addition, he could more easily walk away from involvement with them than he could with the Renlings or Thea which would have been more permanent commitments. 

The same thing happens with his bother Simon and the Magnuse's and Lucy. Augie gets sucked into this world, but it is not what he really wants for himself, it is Simon's idea of what he should be and what he should do with his life. And as before he does not have the means to wilfully walk away but Mimi offers him the means to slip through their trap. While on the one hand he may have genuinely cared for Mimi as a friend and truly wanted to help her, but on the other hand, at least on some subconscious level there may have also been the desire of his hoping that is involvement with Mimi would jeopardize his arrangement with Lucy, because he needed that catalyst to allow himself to break free, because even though he did get swept along, that was not truly the life he wanted for himself.

----------


## caspian

> I really enjoyed the part all about Mimi and Pedlla and a part of me really wanted to see Augie and Mimi get together even if I knew that could never really happen because of the way Mimi was I do not think she would in fact ever agree to marry Augie. And though I think it was pretty rotten how Simon treated him and how they all just assumed he had to be sleeping with Mimi, I was glad that his ties to Lucy and her family were severed. 
> .


I liked that friendship between Mimi and Augie too. Surprisingly pleasant relationship! I really didn't expect it would stay just as a regular friendship. But it did. Nice! Less disgust!

Good analyzing, guys.
I'm slowly catching up with you, though I haven't met Stella yet. Glad to know Augui will manage get away from Thea too. Augie is a gingerbread boy.

I like Augie being sensitive, unselfish, the way he cares for his family. I was touched by his grief over grandma's death.This story is all variety. I think I liked melodrama parts best.

But Augie's sense of morality...
he doesn't get much of my sympathy. While being engaged to Lusy his visits to lake avenue park, exchanging girls with Padilla , his book business.... I think the last irritated me most. I worked for a public library, a few times helped my cousin at her gift shop. So confronted many augie, padilla, mimi likes. Hate that!

----------


## Dark Muse

I think one of the interesting aspects of the book is the way in which it does focus a lot upon how flawed human nature is. Augie is not altogether a sympathetic character, and his morals are certainly questionable, yet at the same time, there is a sense that he does in his own way, and as well as he knows how care about other people, and he is loyal to his friends and family (even when perhaps he should not always be so *yes I am looking at you Simon*). 

There is also a lot of hypocrisy in Augie, as we can see how he reacted both to Stella's and Thea's involvement with other men, and yet, he ran off with Stella when he was with Thea, and after he married Stella, he was looking to hook up with women while he was off in the war, and he himself have been involved with married women. 

That is another one of the interesting things about the book is the question of love, lust, infidelity and relationships. I do not think throughout the book we see a single example of a faithful relationship. A lot of this could be that well at the period of time in which the book was set it was in vogue to have affairs. As I cannot recall who but someone made the comment to Augie implying that Charlotte should just take if for granted that Simon would be unfaithful to her. And there was the way everyone else just automatically presumed that Augie must be sleeping with Mimi and they could not conceive of any other possibility and would not even believe him if Augie tried to tell the truth. 

It is almost impossible to truly be wholly sympathetic to any of the characters because ultimately they are all "guilty" What wrong that one person has done to someone, that someone had themselves done.

----------


## bouquin

is Augie more contented, more comfortable with himself when he's mixed up with Joe Gorman or stealing expensive books? (as opposed to leading a more "respectable" and conventional lifestyle if he had allowed himself to be adopted by the Renlings).

Don't you get the impression that Augie has the penchant for things illegal? In the last chapter we find him involved in another rather shady endeavor working as middleman for Mintouchian. 




_______________
Currently reading: _True History of the Kelly Gang_ (by Peter Carey)

----------

