# General > General Chat >  Do You Believe In the paranormal and Did you ever experience supernatural Phenomena?

## Pendragon

I tought I'd start this in light of something I read on the "soul" thread, and also in light of those who have posted a belief in "life after death". My vote is "not in the usual sense.", that is, not as the departed spirits of the dead. When my children reported seeing the "ghost" of a confederate soldier in our mobile home park, my reaction was "Yeah, right." Then one evening, I stepped out on the porch about sundown, turned to the East, and there he stood in the next yard over. You couldn't see him from the knees down, as if he were standing in tall grass. My explaination: He was in his time, I was in mine, and I somehow saw him. I could see his legs, begause he WAS standing in knee-high grass. Not a departed soul, just a time lapse. That probably sounds crazy too, but give me your ideas, OK? Dragon out.

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## adilyoussef

Me too I vote 'not in the usual sense.' Ghosts exist, but they are different from the way they are represented in the movies. This is an exagerated way to picture the paranormal. If you want more clear ideas about ghosts, look for African magic and paranormals. You'll be astonished with their perseption of those things. Ghosts are different creatures living their life seperatly from human's. You can evoke them and harm them, as they can do as well, by the means of magic. Leave them alone they will leave you alone. Look for them you get in troubles.

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## Ancestor

I voted yes because of some the experiences I have had all my life and if other people think I am crazy that is okay. I do not care what they thing about me because that does not matter to me. I can feel the Spirit energy along with the energy off the living too. I also do my best to find out if I am right or not by doing research after the experience. Plus I am the type to believe anything is possible.  :Smile:

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## Themis

I voted "I´m open-minded on the subject". I have never seen a ghost or anything like that but I think, it's possible that ghosts exist. I imagine - given ghosts do exist - that I would not be able to see them. .. Well, that overlaps my believe of "life after death" and would get too complicated, so I'll just stop here, for now.

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## mono

I voted for "open-minded on the subject" as well. Throughout my few years, I have experienced some odd occurrences, and know not what to think of them, but, as with many subjects, remain highly skeptic.

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## papayahed

> I voted for "open-minded on the subject" as well. Throughout my few years, I have experienced some odd occurrences, and know not what to think of them, but, as with many subjects, remain highly skeptic.


As usual, I agree with Mono, I'm open minded on the subject. I've also had odd occurrences to totally discount ghosts or the paranormal - but then again there's always the very slim possibilty that it's all in my head.

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## baddad

NO to ghosts. NO to paranormal. But I've personally had experiences that I've attributed to senses we posess but do not readily acknowledge. We can feel in our gut when something seems 'not quite right', we hear our 'inner voice' direct us, and always ignore it at our own peril, but these unexplained senses are as 'voodoo' as I can go..........................and yes, the voices in my head are definately getting louder......now pass me the chicken bones and my lucky charms...........

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## subterranean

I always think there's something watching me from the corner in my bedroom; something which sometimes requires my attention and makes me wake up in the middle of the night and make me stay up till morning. So i choose open minded.

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## okmit

I voted yes.I think we are ghosts.I was in a fire fight in Nam in "68" and had an out of body experience.I wasn't freaking or anything but I found myself watching the battle in ecstacy.I seen myself get blown out of my right leg, and I got a severe case of the uglies,(when stuff that belongs inside is hanging outside.)In awe I thought;cool,you give up the ghost before you actually get whacked and you don't really go through all that pain!I couldn't hear anything but I seen myself wrenching an screaming.When I came to ,I was in a hospital ward,but thought I had been shown heaven and got sent to hell!No one could still be alive in this much pain!But I was back,body an ghost as one with years of hell to pay.

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## subterranean

Is spirit is the same with ghost? In my country, ghost is always define as unpeaceful spirit of people who died.

But I think that's an awesome experience Okmit..

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## Ancestor

> Is spirit is the same with ghost? In my country, ghost is always define as unpeaceful spirit of people who died.
> 
> But I think that's an awesome experience Okmit..


Depends on whom you ask but for me personally there are only Spirits not ghosts. Spirits can be good or bad just like us folks that are alive. subterranean may I ask what country you are from? If that is a too personal then please do not answer I am merely curious.

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## subterranean

I'm from Indonesia  :Smile:   :Wave:

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## okmit

I believe ghost refers to the center of spiritual life,the soul when manifest in any form.
When the Holy Spirit appeared as tongues of fire,it was the Holy Ghost.
God as a burning bush,was the ghost of God.
Ghostwriter...a representitive
I believe the Spirit is the driving force that brings forth attributes of the Soul.
My Soul doth magnify the Lord,my Spirit rejoices in God my savior...Luke 1:46

An Imp,or Poltergeist is a mischievous ghost that makes noises and creates disorder.
A mild pain in the ***.Most likely the dude in the corner!

My exprience was awesome,I wouldn't trade it for the riches of the world,nor would I give a penney to repeat it!I think I may have an understanding of how Lazurus felt when he was resurrected...Drat,I'm going too have to go through the sting of death AGAIN?

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## Pendragon

> I'm from Indonesia


Allow me to extend a wave in greeting from the USA to Indonesia and to any others who post from far away lands!  :Wave:   :Wave:   :Wave:  From the Dragon

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## Ancestor

> I'm from Indonesia


Wow, I hear that is a beautiful country. Thank you for answering me.   :Smile:

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## subterranean

Aww, thank you both.. :Wave:  back to you ...

Ancestor, as I were saying in previous post, the such belief which many people in my country hold, that ghost is a manifestation of unpeaceful soul of dead person, is fully influence by cultural values. Even when they claimed to be religious people, In Indonesia, we have so many kinds of ghosts  :Rolleyes:  ; each has its own "historical" backgrounds, and some of them have existed since very long time ago (since the time of kings).

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## Ancestor

My belief has many different kinds of manifestations and that spirit energy exists from all sorts because we are all sorts of people when we are alive. My faith is classified as new age but I have had some paranormal experiences also which were neat but slightly freaky at the same time. Thank you so much for showing me a small insight into your people you have opened my eyes to something new.  :Smile:

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## Pendragon

> My belief has many different kinds of manifestations and that spirit energy exists from all sorts because we are all sorts of people when we are alive. My faith is classified as new age but I have had some paranormal experiences also which were neat but slightly freaky at the same time. Thank you so much for showing me a small insight into your people you have opened my eyes to something new.


And that is why I started this discussion. To LEARN. When you have an experience you cannot explain, perhaps someone else has had a similiar experience that may shed light on your own-- provided you don't close your mind. Dragon out.  :Smile:

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## okmit

Ancestor,if you haven't already checked out Edgar Cayce I think you might enjoy his work.He too was able to provide intuitive insights.

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## Nightshade

Im not sure I havent voted. I guess I dont belive in ghost persay as dead people with unfinished buisness but I do belive in the exsistance of what Adil was talking about but not ghosys Jin or Djin if you want to spell it that way somthing else. and as for the dead? I dont know I think maybe the dead are wherever they are can see us but I dont think they are Here.
I have a feeling this post makes no sense at all  :Biggrin:

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## mono

> Ancestor,if you haven't already checked out Edgar Cayce I think you might enjoy his work.He too was able to provide intuitive insights.


Edgar Cayce had some interesting work that seems bound to provoke a lot of controversial thought in any reader, and he has turned a lot of heads. Reading his work, he sometimes reminds me a modern Nostradamus combined with, a good friend of his, Aleister Crowley.
Even while reading his work, I still remain quite skeptic on the subject, but Cayce, as okmit suggests, will certainly get your ideas flowing on these types of subjects.

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## Ancestor

> Ancestor,if you haven't already checked out Edgar Cayce I think you might enjoy his work.He too was able to provide intuitive insights.





> Edgar Cayce had some interesting work that seems bound to provoke a lot of controversial thought in any reader, and he has turned a lot of heads. Reading his work, he sometimes reminds me a modern Nostradamus combined with, a good friend of his, Aleister Crowley.
> Even while reading his work, I still remain quite skeptic on the subject, but Cayce, as okmit suggests, will certainly get your ideas flowing on these types of subjects.


Thanks okmit.  :Smile:  It appears you have read Edgar Cayce and my parents talked about him when I was a kid. I have read some but not all and was there a specific book you had in mind. I would like to know because I am a very intuitive person who needs to learn how to use it better. 

Mono anyone should be skeptic especially when dealing with paranormal events. So many people do try to take advantage of those people who are greiving. I am a skeptic until I have my own personal experience that I cannot find another answer to. So keep being skeptic until proven or disproven otherwise.  :Smile:

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## okmit

I think it best you select the genre that you feel coincides best with your gift for comparison only.I don't believe Cayce or anyone could or should teach you how to use your gift better.All good things come in time,and as your skill sharpens you decide how best to apply it.Cayce is an authority on his gifts,not yours.

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## Ancestor

> I think it best you select the genre that you feel coincides best with your gift for comparison only.I don't believe Cayce or anyone could or should teach you how to use your gift better.All good things come in time,and as your skill sharpens you decide how best to apply it.Cayce is an authority on his gifts,not yours.


Thank you, no one has put it that way before and I do enjoy learning from others as well it can help me also. Thank you again for your good advice.  :Smile:

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## Insomnia

Nope

But I do believe that humans are not the only sane creatures on earth, there is a whole other world here... they can see us but we can't see them, but they have their life as we do have ours... they eat, drink, learn, etc.

There could be one of them right next to you

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## Ancestor

> Nope
> 
> But I do believe that humans are not the only sane creatures on earth, there is a whole other world here... they can see us but we can't see them, but they have their life as we do have ours... they eat, drink, learn, etc.
> 
> There could be one of them right next to you


I do believe one can see those whom are deceased and that people should be more opened minded about life. I feel their energy and I do know when they are watching me but that does make me insane. What do you mean by sane creatures? Would you please clarify that for me? I am interested in hearing more about what you think on this subject.

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## subterranean

I don't know whether Imsonia was reffering to the Genies in the Islam. But few times I heard from my Muslims friends, that genies have similiar lifestyle as men. There are bad genies and there are good ones. They also married, have family, and intelligent as well. It is said that Allah created them. They can see human, but common people can't see them. And with certain methods, man can rule and "use" them as his wishes, like the one we see in the Aladin story.

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## mono

> I don't know whether Imsonia was reffering to the Genies in the Islam. But few times I heard from my Muslims friends, that genies have similiar lifestyle as men. There are bad genies and there are good ones. They also married, have family, and intelligent as well. It is said that Allah created them. They can see human, but common people can't see them. And with certain methods, man can rule and "use" them as his wishes, like the one we see in the Aladin story.


This reminds me of the concept of having a 'sixth sense' (no, not the M. Night Shyamalan film), but the idea of having a separate sense from the five common senses (sight, touch, taste, smell, auditory), enabling people to have the 'keen intuition' of perceiving certain phenomena.
What do you all think of the sixth sense, if it indeed exists?

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## papayahed

> This reminds me of the concept of having a 'sixth sense' (no, not the M. Night Shyamalan film), but the idea of having a separate sense from the five common senses (sight, touch, taste, smell, auditory), enabling people to have the 'keen intuition' of perceiving certain phenomena.
> What do you all think of the sixth sense, if it indeed exists?


I think I may believe we have a sixth sense. I dunno, I'm confused on this subject. Ever since I can remember 95% of the time I know who's on the phone before I pick it up and now I know who the email is from when the little envelope appears on the bottom of my screen. I always assumed this was normal and only when I was a teenage did I find out that none of my friends could do this. The question is what is "this", is it sixth sense?

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## okmit

Only those that know...know,the rest are left to wonder.

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## NewWorldOrder

One day I met a guy in a professional meeting, he was a ceo of a firm and a former director in Microsoft. Someone told an esoetric joke, I laughed, he stared at me telling me that karma exists. And he told me the Race of Snakes would return (what's that I asked; well it's the nazis), and he asked me to read a book which supposedly describe a guy who has been visited by an spititual guardian and explained him a lot of things about Ghosts, the future etc. For example Ghosts would be people who would stay too much attached to earth for some reasons (like they have been assassinated and they look for revenge).

Well I'm a rationalist, since I never experiment such things, I have no reason to believe in writers who are writing for money or propaganda so I just report the book's story  :Biggrin:

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## Ancestor

> One day I met a guy in a professional meeting, he was a ceo of a firm and a former director in Microsoft. Someone told an esoetric joke, I laughed, he stared at me telling me that karma exists. And he told me the Race of Snakes would return (what's that I asked; well it's the nazis), and he asked me to read a book which supposedly describe a guy who has been visited by an spititual guardian and explained him a lot of things about Ghosts, the future etc. For example Ghosts would be people who would stay too much attached to earth for some reasons (like they have been assassinated and they look for revenge).
> 
> Well I'm a rationalist, since I never experiment such things, I have no reason to believe in writers who are writing for money or propaganda so I just report the book's story


That is interesting and it seems to be a bit far fetched even for me who does believe in spirits. I feel the future is unwritten until it becomes the past and we are the writers of our own future. NewWorldOrder what made you pick that name? Just curious it reminds of the new Nazi's group but I do mean to imply you think that way, by all means I do not know how you think. I also feel everyone should be skeptic until proven otherwise.  :Smile:

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## subterranean

From the several interviews I watched on TV, psychic or paranormal often define their capability to predict the future or see mentald description of other people, as sixth sense. Some even said that everyone has sixth sense but not everyone capable to develop it; or some are actually gifted with sharper intuition compare to others in general.

I do think there are some people with higher sensitivy or mental awareness towards others and their surroundings; and this make them capable in seeing or hearing things that common people may taken for granted.

On the other hand, there are practices which can sharpen your common senses, like hearing, seeing, or tasting. A simple example, in one old show of "Only in America", I saw a man who work in a big ice cream company and his main (and only) task was to create new flavours of ice cream. His tounge was so sensitive to flavors, that he was able to differentiate tiny difference of ingredients of an ice cream flavor.




> What do you all think of the sixth sense, if it indeed exists?

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## Pendragon

> What do you all think of the sixth sense, if it indeed exists?


This is a little off topic, but I do believe in a sixth sense. Please don't ask me to try to explain it, as I really cannot. Besides, many would simply ridicule what I would have to say anyway. Ancestor, you will probably understand what I mean by auras. That's as far as I go. I am one Westerner who doesn't think all Oriential things just mumbo-jumbo however. Since I suffer from chronic illness, my Oriential Doctor taught me a principal of I Ching that I did not know (I've studied a lot of things!) to help me deal with stress. It works great!  :Smile:

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## NewWorldOrder

> That is interesting and it seems to be a bit far fetched even for me who does believe in spirits.



I have no reason to believe in anything that Science hasn't demonstrated yet. It's out of the realm of science at the moment. I'm scientist that's the reason why I just wait for science to discover the truth: I won't go into sects or believe anything I read as fiction.




> I feel the future is unwritten until it becomes the past and we are the writers of our own future.


This is rather a sociological belief than a scientific belief. People are endoctrined to believe for example that the schrödinger equation in quantum mechanics justifies this. In truth it is just one of subjective interpretation called the Copenhague interpretation which Schrödinger himself doesn't agree with. More and more scientists are discovering that Nature is fundamentally deterministic but appears to be random through chaos theory for example. Now for the mere mortal it doesn't change much: it's like in a role game: everything is predetermined by the game algorithm though you won't be able to predict precisely enough to do so because of the many combinatories that are possible.



> NewWorldOrder what made you pick that name? Just curious it reminds of the new Nazi's group but I do mean to imply you think that way, by all means I do not know how you think. I also feel everyone should be skeptic until proven otherwise.


Read my former post and you may guess why: I'm fundamentally anti-nazi and against so called New World Order which is in fact crafted for the first time by Mussolini. But people forget history and when they hear about New World Order of UN they think it's a socialist kind of order whereas socialism is not the one dreamed by people, it's just a manipulative instrument that is used by the neonazi. 

When I met the guy above, I didn't care much about what he said because I thought he was kind of mad guy but since I have assembled information that show there are indeed something going on and most people aren't aware.

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## Ancestor

> This is a little off topic, but I do believe in a sixth sense. Please don't ask me to try to explain it, as I really cannot. Besides, many would simply ridicule what I would have to say anyway. Ancestor, you will probably understand what I mean by auras. That's as far as I go. I am one Westerner who doesn't think all Oriential things just mumbo-jumbo however. Since I suffer from chronic illness, my Oriential Doctor taught me a principal of I Ching that I did not know (I've studied a lot of things!) to help me deal with stress. It works great!


Yes I do know what you mean by auras and I do have a good sixth sense also.  :Smile:  Only my sixth sense is more emapthic ability then just mere intuition but feeling illness, emotions, and auras as well. I practiced Tai Chi for stress which also worked but I have not done it for a few years now. Pendragon would please tell where I can look into I Ching principals. I wonder if that is part of Qigong or QI healing principals? I would love to learn to improve my whole being better due to I am not doing a good job at the moment. Stress is way too unhealthy for anyone. I feel we all have a sixth sense but some of us choose to use it and some do not want to tap into it let alone acknowledge sixth sense even exists. It is each to his or her own.

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## underground

i'll have to read the last three pages one of these days, but as for now, i'll just be self-centered and voice my own opinion.  :Tongue: 

yes, i do believe that ghosts exist, but i really wonder what makes people always assume that they're the souls of dead people. maybe ghosts are, you know, just from a whole different world. maybe those who look like people we know are the doppel gangers from another dimension.  :Tongue:  

this may be a little unrelated, but i was just thinking, maybe we're really not the only living things in this universe. you know like before columbus and all the conquistadors, the europeans didn't know about the native americans? why, maybe earth is just like one of the isolated continents, and one day people could be so advanced that they could go to another planet in a flash via airplane. and the history that the students learn in school would be mainly about the universe as a whole and about the earth just a little.

maybe i've read too much sci-fi.

ah, so there's a discussion about sixth sense. well, i heard it really depends on each individual; some people can sense and others just don't. some people, therefore, can see ghosts and other miscellaneous spirits while others--who became skeptics--can't. maybe it has something to do with your genes after all. (i've read the god gene by who knows who that basically says some people are more spiritual than others. "god" can probably be replaced by "ghosts.")

my family uses the words "ghosts" and "demons" interchangeably, but in my opinion, ghosts can be either good or bad (think casper), while demons are undoubtedly evil. then again, this is the opinion i formed four years ago. i will have to come up with a new one. both ghosts and demons, incidentally, are subgroups of "spirits." other subgroups include genies, poltergeists, vampires, etc. now that's the lesson of the day.

i also trust science most of the time, but i don't believe that science has the answer all the time. i'm sure everyone has heard of ghostly anecdotes. well, i really like the one with the tourists and the photographs. this one happened to my science-sy professor, by the way. he was visiting a place somewhere and decided to take pictures of the head tribe or something. but then someone nudged him and told him he needed to ask the head tribe's permission first, and because he didn't, he wasn't going to get any of the pictures. and so when he developed the film, all of the pictures were fine except for the one of the head tribes: they were blank. another student shared a similar story.

i don't think this is just a coincidence and that there are some supernatural/paranormal/outlandish power somewhere out there. one we obviously have yet to understand.

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## byquist

Only Hamlet's dad, Banquo, and the one in "Blythe Spirit."

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## Ancestor

> This is rather a sociological belief than a scientific belief. People are endoctrined to believe for example that the schrödinger equation in quantum mechanics justifies this. In truth it is just one of subjective interpretation called the Copenhague interpretation which Schrödinger himself doesn't agree with. More and more scientists are discovering that Nature is fundamentally deterministic but appears to be random through chaos theory for example. Now for the mere mortal it doesn't change much: it's like in a role game: everything is predetermined by the game algorithm though you won't be able to predict precisely enough to do so because of the many combinatories that are possible.


Yeah I know but there are things that happened to me that science cannot explain due to that they do not believe it can happen. I appear to fit into a catorgory that no one seems to be willing to scientifically study. My way of thinking is not totally against science in fact I love forensics which is not the kind of science we are talking about here. But there always have been things that can be scientifically explained and some that cannot be scientifically explained. Example, take a pair of dowsing rods and place them into someone hands. The dowsing rods beging to swing around but the person is not moving his or her hands. Can you scientifically explain how these rods swing for about 30 minutes without the person moving their hands? If you saw it with your own eyes would you believe what you are seeing or accuse the person of some trickery? I am a honest person and would never deceive anyone like that and my dowsing rod swing real well without my help. I do not expect anyone to believe me because that is something you have to experience for yourself.

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## Adelheid

You might like to read "Alien Encounters" by Chuck Missler and Mark Eastman. I never thought I'd ever believe in Ghosts or Aliens... but that book has changed my thinking alright. It's freaky enough in broad daylight. I'd advise anyone NOT to read it at night. I was so scared when I did.

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## Pendragon

> Pendragon would please tell where I can look into I Ching principals. I wonder if that is part of Qigong or QI healing principals? I would love to learn to improve my whole being better due to I am not doing a good job at the moment. Stress is way too unhealthy for anyone.


I studied I Ching from books I checked out from my local library. Any good library should either have them, or be able to get them on intra-library loan for you. The method I'm using at the moment is called "Heart Smiling", using a focus of Chi flow and meditation, modified to suit my personal tastes and religious beliefs. That is the beauty of I Ching as taught by my doctor, she can tailor it to a person so well. I used to be able to block pain, nearly stop my heart, etc., but I have trouble concentrating now. This version requires little concentration, as the meditation takes the form of positive statements said aloud. The philosopher Jung was into I Ching, if I recall correctly. My sixth sense is tied to my aura very strongly, but I understand what you mean by "empathy". Not that I see ghosts as a usual thing, I can usually explain what is going on. It's the 10% I can't explain that lead me to start this topic.  :Smile:  




> yes, i do believe that ghosts exist, but i really wonder what makes people always assume that they're the souls of dead people. maybe ghosts are, you know, just from a whole different world. maybe those who look like people we know are the doppel gangers from another dimension.  
> 
> 
> maybe i've read too much sci-fi.


Interesting. Are you familiar with the ghostly phenomenon of the _"doppleganger"_ or "fetch"? This is when a person is haunted by a replica of themselves. It is said to be fatal to see your own "fetch". As you might imagine from the name, this legend comes to us via the German people. I've read several cases that seem to be well documented. Parallel Universe lap-over? Works for me. Oh, and you can never read too much Sci-Fi...  :Smile:   :Alien:   :Alien:   :Alien:   :Alien:

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## BigDaddy_GFS

I've had some odd personal experiences with ghosts and/or spirits.
About five separate ocasions, I've seen an entity that cold be a ghost or spirit. 
Three times, I saw a curly-haired white man, heavy set, in rural clothes. Once,he was spotted sitting in a lounge chair in my den, and twice in the bedrooms. He vanished quickly, and never acknowledged my presence.
At least twice, I've seen a pillar of smoky material in my house that can't be explained away.
Add to the list, the sound of music boxes, when there are nonne in the house.
Also, the scent of men's cologne has been smelled, but no one in the house wears any.
Lights have switched on and off by themselves.
PErsonal items have disappeared, and then reappeared in odd places.

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## Ancestor

Cool experience's BigDaddy and has anyone else in your house seen this guy? Just curious do not have to answery if you do not want to. I feel that seeing is believing.  :Nod:    

Thank you Pendragon for answering my question and I will look into it. I am a firm believer that meditation does work and I do know that having a healthy Chi does help us. I do appreciate you answering so again thank you.  :Wink:

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## rachel

So many thoughts and opinions. Since I believe that we were always meant to have access to this world of material substance and that where God and His angels and such dwell I have never had a problem since baby hood accepting that my being extremely sensitive to the unseen was as it should be. Okay you can laugh til you cry but when I was nine i sat on the edge of the bed and i was determined i guess to sit there until i saw a vision of God.(when i was just three or so my father said i put on my coat and headed for the door declaring i was going to find God.)Well i sat and sat and then suddenly the room lit up which was hard because it was summer and the room was already bright because it was not twilight yet. at any rate there stood this magnificent well to me angelic being and i was so disappointed because i knew he was not God. He simply bade me get under the covers told me that God was with me and the next thing i know it was morning and i was still lying under the covers.This sort of thing has happened all througout my life. I have no idea why.
The two strangest were when one october night when my children were small i went outside to go down the street to get chocolate bars for a snack ( i know not healthy)
I distinctly heard a voice ask me how much i loved my God. I said with out thinking very much. "to the death?" i heard and suddenly felt scared. i went into the store and got the stuff and as i was heading home i felt overwhelmingly freaked out. i looked down the street and there sat what i at first thought was a guard dog but it was outside the gate of the auto wreckers. Then i noticed it was sitting but was about six feet high and was glowing electric blue and had glowing yellow eyes that looked somehow human. It started toward me and sounded like a train.I started screaming like an insane person and began to run across the crowded highway. people were staring at me and swerving and trying to see what i saw. i got to the other side and told it to go in Jesus' Name and it vanished. I went into the house with the chocolate bars and sat like a statue for about an hour trying to calm down.

The second( i hope i am not boring you) was a reoccurant strange thing at my place of work which was a night attendant at a senior's residence. as there was always only one person working each night caring for over seventy sick and dying people it was exhausting. and i had to do room check, go up all the floors and check to see there was no smoke or whatever. i always heard uneartlhly moanings and screams or deep hideous voices coming from some of the rooms that i knew sickly spindly weak people tucked into their beds were.
then i read from another attendant that she was thinking of quitting (we had to write all happenings in the book for the next shift.) because of the same things. she was terrified. we couldn't lose her, it was such a hard job no one was able to do but a few of us so in desperation i told her to do what i had done to tell whatever those things were to leave in the Name of Jesus. She wrote in the book a couple of days later that she had done so and the noises and slamming doors had ceased instantly. 
I don't pretend to understand all this stuff but it happens. constantly.

"And the demons screamed and cried out and said "Son of Man what have we to do with you ?" And He ordered them to be quiet and come out of him." holy Bible.

pendragon,

what is I Ching in the first place and how does it work. It is just a way of coping like some people do under doctor's care to diminish pain by what one thinks or says out loud or is it something else.

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## Ancestor

> I studied I Ching from books I checked out from my local library. Any good library should either have them, or be able to get them on intra-library loan for you. The method I'm using at the moment is called "Heart Smiling", using a focus of Chi flow and meditation, modified to suit my personal tastes and religious beliefs. That is the beauty of I Ching as taught by my doctor, she can tailor it to a person so well. I used to be able to block pain, nearly stop my heart, etc., but I have trouble concentrating now. This version requires little concentration, as the meditation takes the form of positive statements said aloud. The philosopher Jung was into I Ching, if I recall correctly. My sixth sense is tied to my aura very strongly, but I understand what you mean by "empathy". Not that I see ghosts as a usual thing, I can usually explain what is going on. It's the 10% I can't explain that lead me to start this topic.





> pendragon, what is I Ching in the first place and how does it work. It is just a way of coping like some people do under doctor's care to diminish pain by what one thinks or says out loud or is it something else.


I know you addressed this to Pendragon but I think I can answer it too. Asian practices of deal with Chi which is the energy within the human body. I Ching is a principal that allows one to balance the Chi within their own body to help the body heal thyself. A meditation form Pendragon describes in the above quote is used to help him is tailored to him. Aura is his spiritual energy which is your Chi. Often doing Tai Chi can also give you same results but I find that Reiki healing also helps me too. Otherwords use spiritual healing techniques along with whatever faith you are can help you stay healthy. I do need to get back into the practice of doing my Tai Chi again. Your mind is a power healing tool that most people do not use. But if you have negative thoughts then your mind can also make you sick. It depends on how one thinks of themselves and what they find works to keep them a healthy person. Sorry to have butted in and if Pendragon feels I did not interpret correctly I hope he will set me straight. I would rather be straight then to keep making mistakes.  :Wink:

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## B-Mental

I don't know the answer to this one, but when I was young my father owned a bar in Wisconsin. All sorts of weird things used to happen in the bar when I was there alone.
Later weird things would happen when I was closing it as a bar tender, usually alone. On several occasions people that used to work there have told me that they personally thought the bar was haunted and that it was the scariest place to be in alone.

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## NewWorldOrder

>Yeah I know but there are things that happened to me that science cannot explain due to that they do not believe it can happen. I appear to fit into a catorgory that no one seems to be willing to scientifically study. 


Science is not a religion but is also a system of beliefs I have no shame to admit this only those who are pseudo-scientist would claim that Science is pure facts  :Smile: . Henri Poincaré one of the greatest scientist of this century has written a book called "Science and Hypothesis" to dismiss that Science is just based on logics like Mathematics. For those who doesn't know him, he is the Grand Father of Chaos Theory and in fact also the first inventor of Einstein's relativity before Einstein it is officially known in scientific community since ten years but not yet by the mass public.

Nevertheless Science is based on RATIONAL beliefs not on revelation by some individuals. And science is aimed to revise its own system of beliefs which is not the case of revelation. If somebody like the guy I encountered who told me that he has exorcised somebody, well it's natural that I am skeptical and would rather think his patient was just schizophrenic and wanted to kill his wife because a voice ordered him to do so. He was also a scientist, I have no reason to suspect he wants to fool me as in the professional context of this seminar he had really ridiculised himself in front of several persons  :Biggrin: 

After that a very good friend of mine who is also very rational said, once he was plunging in the pool and had an accident he sunk into coma. But "from the air" he saw his own body as well as all people reanimating him. Well I am not stuborned, I would say maybe there is something, it isn't studied by science yet but I'm sure it will one day because Science cannot help to study truth. But it is sure that Science is controled politically and religiously and that it may not advance as fast as it could.

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## Ancestor

> I don't know the answer to this one, but when I was young my father owned a bar in Wisconsin. All sorts of weird things used to happen in the bar when I was there alone.
> Later weird things would happen when I was closing it as a bar tender, usually alone. On several occasions people that used to work there have told me that they personally thought the bar was haunted and that it was the scariest place to be in alone.


Where is the bar I love haunted places and find them very interesting. Having had many experiences myself I am used to it by and when a unfriendly one gets around I call for reinforcements. Prayers and my dead relatives keep me out of trouble which wears them out.  :Smile:

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## B-Mental

Its in Eau Claire, Wisconsin. It still goes by the name "The Mousetrap", but under new ownership. I wish the spirit of my dead ancestors kept me from trouble, but last March I blew out my ACL while snowboarding. I'm Irish, and I feel an affinity with my long lost heritage that month, but to no avail. Oh, the knee happened less than two months after I broke my clavicle, again snowboarding.

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## Pendragon

> pendragon,
> 
> what is I Ching in the first place and how does it work. It is just a way of coping like some people do under doctor's care to diminish pain by what one thinks or says out loud or is it something else.


Well, Rachel, I have nothing much to add to what Ancestor has already said. _(Don't worry about the butting in, Ancestor. You did fine.)_ Reiki healing was suggested to me when my other defences against stress and negitive thoughts had broken down. It is tailored to me in that I use The Lord's Prayer, favorite Bible verses (Psalm 23), and adress every positve statement to my Heavenly Father. You vocally excange a negitive thought something like this: "Heavenly Father, take my feelings of abandonment and exchange them for the knowledge that I am loved and I am wanted and needed. Smile to your heart." I can already hear the laughter, but it does work. There are ways to sit, hold the hands, etc. to maximize the flow of the Chi, but I've never had anything leave me feeling so peaceful. I imagine some would call it a form of "self hypnosis", but it isn't. I Ching can be used for other purposes, some non-medical and even bad. There is positive and negitive Chi. Sadly, as a wild teenager, I focused on the negitive aspects of I Ching. After becoming a Christian, I still used I Ching concentration to controll pain, but as I said, I can no longer do that.

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## NewWorldOrder

I have encountered other people on some forums who seem to really believe in some theories like after the death, we would be souls that would be forced to reincarnate again and again (that is to say we would have no choice to do so  :Biggrin: ) and that in between we would be haunting others though not always as visibly as a ghost. 

There are so many beliefs that people are just chosing the one that suits theirs. So what is it worth to do so ? I don't understand why people want to fool themselves with fake beliefs notably in sects. I prefer not to believe and wait for a true answer one day even if it isn't during this life - supposing I have some more.

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## Logos

Speaking of rationality and scientific beliefs.. and NewWorldOrder, I'm not trying to have a `go' at you, but this is a _big_ popular misconception about people who have schizophrenia. That voices tell them to kill people.




> "People with schizophrenia are far more likely to harm *themselves* than be violent toward the public. Violence is not a symptom of schizophrenia."


from this site:

http://www.schizophrenia.com/poverty.htm

I had to interject here because I know we all want to better informed about people and the world around us, huh?  :Smile: 




> Nevertheless Science is based on RATIONAL beliefs not on revelation by some individuals. And science is aimed to revise its own system of beliefs which is not the case of revelation. If somebody like the guy I encountered who told me that he has exorcised somebody, *well it's natural that I am skeptical and would rather think his patient was just schizophrenic and wanted to kill his wife because a voice ordered him to do so.* He was also a scientist, I have no reason to suspect he wants to fool me as in the professional context of this seminar he had really ridiculised himself in front of several persons


as far as the topic, I absolutely believe that some people are privy to events and energies that most of us are not aware of.

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## Stanislaw

Well, I have personally expierienced something that could be explained as a ghost, but my beliefs do not support the existance of ghosts, so I still struggle over this encounter. Now I suppose it is possible that ghosts are souls that are in pergatory too good for hell, too bad for heaven, and that they are given a second chance on earth, all be it in a different type of existance, and what they do determines their resting place...maybe, 'tis just a thought (well, one that could make sense with my beliefs)

Here is my incounter, please comment on it, ask questions, and perhaps enlighten me, I will try to be as descriptive as possible.
Back story: My family had decided to move, and we were shopping for houses, at one point we thought it would be cool to buy an acreage.

story: well on one excursion we visited a small country house, on this small plot, there were two decrepit buildings and a small circa 1920's farm house. One decrepit building was a collapsing barn, the other a age/wind damaged tool shed.
The house was rather odd on the inside, the furnishings, design and decorations were all that of the early 30's, the house smelled of bread (the food) and the lighting was of a yellow tone, (typical of the glass lightbulb covers). The owner was an elderly lady who owned the house and wanted to move after her husband had died. now there was an atic of sorts, with bedrooms and the like, with a staircase that had to be pulled down from the ceiling, a rectractable stair type thing.now my parents and the realistate agent were looking around the upper area, and I was sitting in the living room area, looking up at the atic area, now I saw a gentleman with a white shirt and green coller up there with my parents, and didn't think much of it. 

After we finished looking around, we decided to go for lunch, so we got in our car and left after bidding farewell to the lady whom owned the house. I asked my parents who the guy with the green collar was, and they said, that there had been no man with a grean collar. However, even they said the house felt weird, "like a place out of time". So suffice to say, it creeped me out.


Well, that was my story of my encounter with a ghost in rural alberta.

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## B-Mental

I looked all over the map and could not find Rural, Alberta.

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## Stanislaw

oh, heh heh, I ment rural as in, rural and urban, city and farm...

the location was about 100 kilometers outside of edmonton north eastish

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## Ancestor

Stanislaw how old were you when you saw this man with the green collar? I know that may seem to be a odd question but I am a proud odd duck here. There are many different ideals about seeing spirits and for one can only feel their them but I did see one long ago. It was not a very good spirit because I was terrified of him. I asked about your age because the younger you are the more easy it is to see a spirit. Youth is accepts more easily then us adults do unless you are one who is willing to see a spirit. Open minded people usually see beyond what normal sense's can and tend to accept with further proof of paranormal existance.  :Smile:

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## YellowCrayola

A question out of the blue: Do you guys believe in those psychics who believe they can contact and speak to the dead?

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## B-Mental

Do you mean like the that had a TV show? Nah, Houdini tried dozens of them. I guess first hand experience might change my opinion though.

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## YellowCrayola

> Do you mean like the that had a TV show? Nah, Houdini tried dozens of them. I guess first hand experience might change my opinion though.


Yeah, those television shows. I always wonder if those people who want the psychics to contact their dead relatives are "paid customers", if you know what I mean. Man, reality television has really taken the "real" out of reality.

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## B-Mental

Really...? Bummer, for real.

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## YellowCrayola

Yeah. I can't even tell where the truth ends and lies begin. After that notion, I just gave up watching reality television. Lol.

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## Ancestor

> A question out of the blue: Do you guys believe in those psychics who believe they can contact and speak to the dead?


Some are real and some are not just like with anything in life. Some get paid a lot of money for giving someone a reading but that does not always mean they are fakes. Sometimes that is how they make their living is giving reading for those whom want to speak to their departed ones. Nothing wrong with that as long as you are a honest person giving the reading.  :Smile:

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## Scheherazade

Thought some of you find the following article interesting. Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4271018.stm


> One in 10 people has had an out-of-body experience, yet scientists know very little about the phenomenon. Researchers say a new study could bring us closer to the ultimate question of what happens when we die. 
> 
> Out-of-body experiences involve a sensation of floating and seeing the physical body from the outside. They are often a symptom of the near-death experience, where people, whilst apparently dead, experience visions, tunnels of light and a feeling of peace, before being resuscitated. 
> 
> These experiences are reported across many cultures and "experiencers" often cite them as life-changing events. Preliminary studies have shown that certain populations are more susceptible. Among students, for example, the incidence of out-of-body experiences (OBE) rises to 25%. 
> 
> A team of scientists at the University of Manchester aims to study profile those who have and haven't had OBEs. Using an online questionnaire on body perceptions and experience, they aim to isolate differences between these groups. The survey will also gather details on the different kinds of OBEs people have, to categorise these experiences more precisely. 
> 
> "There are several theories as to why people have OBEs," says David Wilde, the researcher running the project. "A common link between them is the idea that in certain circumstances the brain somehow loses touch with sensory information coming in from the body. This triggers a series of psychological mechanisms which can lead to someone having an OBE." 
> ...


The survey mentioned in the article: http://www.freeresponse.org/muobe2005/

.

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## Pendragon

To Scheherazade's very informed article on the "out of body" experience, I will only add this. There are those who feel that they can do this at will, they need no "near death" experience to cause it. My advice from personal experiments as a wild teenager is leave things alone that you do not understand. It is far safer and much less likely to give you a good scare! I think that sometimes the unexplained is better off remaining unexplained. I have had several "ghostly" encounters, some which I can explain, some which I cannot, and some which I'm not certain I want to know. My son goes with a young lady whose house is haunted. He came home the other evening with his face scratched after making a snide remark about the ghost. My son is an ultra-skeptic, but he'll swear to this. Can I explain it? I'm not even going to try.  :Eek:   :Eek:   :Confused:

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## rachel

Thank you ancestor and Pendragon. Very interesting. Did you know that King David did something similar in that he would ask his soul what was wrong when he suffered deep depression and then he would share his feelings with God. After God comforted him and spoke to his heart David would bring out what he had learned and put it into a poem. Beautiful.
It does matter what you tell yourself. I remember being in despair about something that was going on and on and I felt like I was dying inside. One of my sons took me aside(he was always so wise since a baby) and told me to reconsider using the words I was using.He said if I kept speaking that to my soul I would succumb to it and then I remembered the scripture that said " the power of life and death is in your words"
I didn't feel any better but I began to speak different words to my soul such as " I can do all things thru Christ who strengthens me" , things such as that.
It still took time but the situation greatly improved and I was able to see it from a different perspective and not let it devestate me.
Logos thank you for that information. I feel distressed at the misinformation floating about in the atmosphere causing undue stress and antagonism and well prejudice.
Ancestor I just have to say that I love your name. Kind of makes me feel like you are family somehow.

"Do you know why" Peter asked "swallows build nests in the eaves of houses?" It is to listen to the stories." Peter Pan

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## mono

> A question out of the blue: Do you guys believe in those psychics who believe they can contact and speak to the dead?


No worries; it does not seem a question 'out of the blue,' but very much related to this thread. No, I do not believe in such psychics on television or telephone. Now and then, I have felt tempted to call them on the telephone, and ask them my name, date of birth, etc.
When something seems so unknown and unproven, such as the existence of ghosts, I think, it makes situations much easier to imagine. In the 1800's and early 1900's, and long before then, no one knew what the moon consisted of, but astronomers thought it looked a lot like cheese, so they assumed the moon consisted of a blue cheese. Because ghosts might exist does not always imply several people can have communication (maybe some, *if* they exist), much less for a paycheck.



> One in 10 people has had an out-of-body experience, yet scientists know very little about the phenomenon. Researchers say a new study could bring us closer to the ultimate question of what happens when we die . . .


Interesting article, Scher, thanks.  :Wink: 
I had a post-operative patient, whose surgery I witnessed, while 'X' had general anesthesia. After the procedure, 'X' woke in a perfectly healthy manner, while we transferred 'X' to the general medical-surgical area, after of which I was 'X's nurse.
After 'X' had fully recovered from the anesthesia, 'X' told me of a very similar experience, reporting feeling above the operating table, watching us, and even explaining some of the conversations we had among the surgeons, anesthesiologist, and nurses. I thought this very interesting, and remained very skeptical, but, of course, did not tell 'X' that. Anesthesia can do some strange things; sometimes patients wake slightly, remain numb, but still have the dizzy, confusing effect of the drug. I thought that interesting, anyway, and did not want to intrude on 'X's beliefs.

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## underground

oh my, much enthusiasm in this thread. i can't add more because i haven't spent that much time researching about paranormal stuff, but magic and ghost stories always fascinate me. whether they're true or not does not concern me. do tell more!  :Biggrin:

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## Rosevn

Such an interesting topic and this is why much enthusiasm has been spent in this thread (hi underground  :Wink:  ). Many of you have given your interesting ideas that I see some existing in me also  :Cool:  ! 

Well anyway I less believe in Ghosts than believe in Souls. I have never ever in my life seen a ghost (except in movies  :Smile: ), yet about the soul, I mean what we can feel by our hearts, yea, I think it exists somehow somewhere in our hearts. For example, as we deeply think of our loved departed ones or as we are in a deep memory of them, it's like their souls are beside us at the time or always...well it's not easy to describe for me...but that's what I have sensed as I recall my loved departed ones who have been so so dear to my soul.

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## Ancestor

> Thank you ancestor and Pendragon. Ancestor I just have to say that I love your name. Kind of makes me feel like you are family somehow.



You are welcome and I feel we are all family here since doing genealogy I have found many connections to other people I never knew. Glad though that we both helped answer your question.  :Wink:

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## Pendragon

> Thank you ancestor and Pendragon. Very interesting. Did you know that King David did something similar in that he would ask his soul what was wrong when he suffered deep depression and then he would share his feelings with God. After God comforted him and spoke to his heart David would bring out what he had learned and put it into a poem. Beautiful.


Anytime and everytime, Rachel. And now you know why I write poetry and songs!  :Smile:

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## YellowCrayola

I only believe in religious ghosts. Lol.  :Biggrin:

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## Ancestor

> I only believe in religious ghosts. Lol.



What do you mean by religious ghosts?  :Confused:

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## YellowCrayola

Like, hmm, let's see... Religious ghosts as in ghostly apparitions pertaining to Christian figures. An example was that incident where the Virgin Mary appeared atop the roof a church in Zeitun, Egypt. I believed that one.

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## Ancestor

Thanks, I was not sure if that was what you meant so thank you for clarifying yourself.  :Smile:  May I ask why only those kinds of spirits that you believe in? Hope that is not too personal of a question and if so forgive me.

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## YellowCrayola

Nah, no problem. Well, I was told by my parents that there are no such things as ghosts. I was told that if I do see any of them, they're in dire need of prayer so they can go to heaven, since they're stuck in purgatory (Catholic view). So that's why I only believe in those kinds of spirits, mainly because of my religion. I hope I explained enough.  :Smile:

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## Stanislaw

> Nah, no problem. Well, I was told by my parents that there are no such things as ghosts. I was told that if I do see any of them, they're in dire need of prayer so they can go to heaven, since they're stuch in purgatory (Catholic view). So that's why I only believe in those kinds of spirits, mainly because of my religion. I hope I explained enough.


'tis a similar belief with me.


oh, and for ancestor, sorry not to have responded ealier, I was around 12ish, when I had my encounter.

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## Ancestor

Not a problem Stanislaw and as for Yellowcrayla you have explained enough hope I was not a bother to you. Catholic faith is unknown to me because I have not met one in person that I know of. Most faiths here Spiritualist and think I worship Satan and I admit to not knowing all faiths but at least I ask for someone to explain before saying they are Satan worshiper. Thank you both for being open and honest with me.  :Smile:

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## YellowCrayola

No problem. I don't think I'm ever going to be a satan-worshipper, though (no offense to those who practice the worship).

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## EMB

I'm in the 'I want to believe' section of the population....my girlfriend does, but for me, to believe, I must experience and, after so many years, this has yet to occur. 

ED  :Cool:

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## Pendragon

Well, EBM, I'm always hearing it described as "haunted New England". Just kidding. I was always the same way. Let me experience it first, then I'll believe. Well, I did, on several occasions. Some I can explain, some I think I can explain, and some I don't know. My own advice to people is "Be careful. You may get more than you bargin for." I see these TV shows about ghost chases and I always wonder, "Are they really sure they know what they are messing with?" That doesn't include the ones that are almost certainly rigged...  :Smile:

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## Stanislaw

> Well, EBM, I'm always hearing it described as "haunted New England". Just kidding. I was always the same way. Let me experience it first, then I'll believe. Well, I did, on several occasions. Some I can explain, some I think I can explain, and some I don't know. My own advice to people is "Be careful. You may get more than you bargin for." I see these TV shows about ghost chases and I always wonder, "Are they really sure they know what they are messing with?" That doesn't include the ones that are almost certainly rigged...


 aie, if ye bed with pigs, you will become one...

ie. don't mess with the dead...or the dead will mess with you...

ie2. "when I am dead, I would like to remain with the dead and I would be upset if somone living forced me to do otherwise!" - fist full of dollers.

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## Dailen

Due to time constraints, this is short, and I have not read the entire thred yet. "Ghosts" in many misunderstood forms exist. If you have not encountered one, you are less likely to Believe.
Paranormal, as in Psychic abilities also exist in many misunderstood forms.

I toss my hat into this ring, and will return with a few more coppers for the pot. 
I will ask though....Am I the only one here 
(who has happened in and read this  :Biggrin:  ) 
With a background in this most perplexing field?

well now, 
I know it's only been a day, but it would apear
-This is an Ex-thread
So...if any others chime in, I'll be back.
It's hard to exchange thoughts when talking to myself.  :Wink: 
(an all to common habit)
Have a goodin'

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## Pendragon

> Due to time constraints, this is short, and I have not read the entire thred yet. "Ghosts" in many misunderstood forms exist. If you have not encountered one, you are less likely to Believe.
> Paranormal, as in Psychic abilities also exist in many misunderstood forms.
> 
> I toss my hat into this ring, and will return with a few more coppers for the pot. 
> I will ask though....Am I the only one here 
> (who has happened in and read this  ) 
> With a background in this most perplexing field?


If you mean by this, as I think you do, are any of us practising Psychics who actively persue ghost hunting, you are probably alone. I am familiar with most types of accepted hauntings. I have experienced some, not all of them. Some I cannot explain and do not try. My own vote as the starter of this thread was "not in the general sense." As for psychic powers, I do not discount them, but many fakers have cast doubt on people who may truly have them. I do not claim any. But what I have seen and experienced I know is true. Call me a skeptic until no explaination can be found. Then, to quote Sherlock Holmes,when you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, however unlikely, must be true. And if you cannot eliminate the impossible, change your mind about what is impossible!  :Biggrin:

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## MrBojangles

Perhaps these "experiences" you guys have had can be told here, because I for one believe that there have never been ghosts, but i enjoy that whole mysticism area. Just as much as a good book.

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## Ancestor

Do you have to see it to believe it? Do you feel those whom have had these kinds of experiences are crazy? Not always seeing is believing because as pendragon pointed out people who claim to be pyschic can cheat you. It is often healty be skeptic in this field not just because of those whom will take advantage but for your own piece of mind. Skeptical people often research and that helps you decide whether or not you have lost your mind.  :Nod:

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## MrBojangles

I keep confusing myself when thinking of a good response, and so what iam living with is that "being skeptical is more healthy."

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## Dailen

*Pendragon*:



> I do not discount them, but many fakers have cast doubt on people who may truly have them.


The fakers are the problem, Have you caught the British TV show where they "hunt" down ghosts? 
They are not hunting ghosts, they are listening to a story teller "get his word on". Not a bit of his impressions ever check out, and/or he gives unverifiable infromation.
When it comes to local Sooth Sayers, as each new one shows up with the tacky neon sign in the front window, I do go and check that person out, this way I feel secure in giving others a review of that persons "skills". 

Far too many people have had emotions played on, and wallet picked, by people who read body language, jewlery, clothing and auto - all of these things along with the opening introductory words, can give a "reader" enough info, to fill the average 20 minute sitting.



> Call me a skeptic until no explaination can be found. Then, to quote Sherlock Holmes,when you eliminate the impossible, whatever is left, however unlikely, must be true. And if you cannot eliminate the impossible, change your mind about what is impossible!


A most wise way to think on many things.

*Ancestor:*



> Not always seeing is believing because as pendragon pointed out people who claim to be pyschic can cheat you. It is often healty be skeptic in this field not just because of those whom will take advantage but for your own piece of mind. Skeptical people often research and that helps you decide whether or not you have lost your mind.


Along with what I stated above, It is highly important to walk into a "reading" with a, clear mind, stable emotions, and a healthy level of skepticism- never walk into a reading thinking - You are going to know your future, you will most likely be dupped, and conned out of more money, for the person to say special prayers for your "darkness"- this is an absolute sign of a scam.
They "the fake" will prey on anybody drowing in sorrow, Tears mean money to them. Many Key words exist to try to tap into the most financialy lucritive of emotions...Love and Loss.

A true reader will not go down this road, and the only tears welcomed by the real thing, are tears of joy.
The strangest of images can be the message from the other side, I'll give some examples:

Friday night I was reading a man, who from the time he walked in, I could feel a Joyous male to his side...we began the reading, This man with him had been trying to reasure his friend that, he needed to stop feeling guilt for the "seemingly" early death of his friend. - as an experienced reader, I knew this was not something I should just blert out. I asked the "other" for more.
The images I got made no sense to me: _normaly thats how it goes._

_the image_
A large building to the left with tall roll up doors facing the right, a tank parked in front, I could see the side of it and the cannon was facing away from the building, strangest part was the tank kept flashing red.

So to start small with his memories (ease him into it) I just asked him if a red tank made any sense to him. He thought a bit and said that he has seen many red tanks, (ok time to get specific) I explained the building and placement of the tank--I could see the lightbulb turn on, now, I said to him, Who stood with you at the tank.....Bingo, He now had proof (that I could never had looked up) that his friend was with us.
The reading continued.

Have you seen Interview with the Vampire? In the begining, where Louie tell the Christian Slater charactor, "We can't begin this way" then he turns on a light with speed that stuns the young man, but gives proof that something more is going on.
This is how I prefer to start my readings.

Just a silly side note: after the reading with the man above,and we were saying goodbye, I was Craving Moonpies, so..I mentioned this to him, turns out it was his friends favorite snack. 
That night I ate my first ever moonpie, not bad.
My complexion, however, thought otherwise.
Oxy just made money off the other side.

I just noticed how long I have Prattled on...So.Being that the first topic started was on Psychic abilities...we could tackle this. And then move on to Ghost, lingering strong emotion, telekenesis, and Out of Body.(if you wish)
(often a confusing mess, reasearch into each event is important to determine what class, if any it belongs in) Any and all questions are welcomed, I will admit if I do not know the answers, I am not all knowing, Just a bit weird.

ohh...Dear MrBojangles: I also hope stories will be shared here, and sometimes the smartest thing people can say is " I know nothing " 
Your skepticism is a good thing.

Now....I must move on to take care of 
The Revenge of The Moonpie - Enjoy.

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## Pendragon

> *Pendragon*:
> 
> The fakers are the problem, Have you caught the British TV show where they "hunt" down ghosts? 
> They are not hunting ghosts, they are listening to a story teller "get his word on". Not a bit of his impressions ever check out, and/or he gives unverifiable infromation.


Excellent example of a case in point. Although some of his impressions are verifiable, I doubt the "no prior knowledge" line. I didn't start this as a "let's get into ghosts" forum thread. It was more of a "do you believe in their existence" thread. If you wish to get really deeply into the subject of Psychic powers and ghost hunting, I'm not sure this is the right thread for you. You may wish to start your own, explaining the various types of hauntings and Psychic readings. You seem to not wish anyone to be taken in by a faker. I know what you mean about the subtle clues they can use, I have no psychic powers, but I can often read facial expressions and what a gambler would call "tells", the invoulantary movements people make and tell them what they are thinking. That is just observation and deduction. Don't take me wrong, I'm not telling you that you are unwelcome, far from it. But if you want to go deeply into details, your own thread might work better. But then again, maybe others on this thread would be genuinely interested in an in depth study of ghosts--and I'm fairly easy to get along with. If they have no objections, (this actually moving a bit off the mark), no one voted me in as President!  :Smile:   :Smile:   :Smile:  I just don't want you to feel restricted in any way. Whatever would best suit your line of inquiry, OK? Oh, and welcome to the thread!

----------


## baddad

All ghosts are within us.

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## Dailen

naw...it's cool. I could erase it if you like.
very politely put.

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## Ancestor

> naw...it's cool. I could erase it if you like.
> very politely put.


I would not erase it but do try to put up a seperate thread because I would like to hear more about what you have to say. Give us some more ideals to explore and learn more about what each of us thinks.  :Smile:

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## Pendragon

> naw...it's cool. I could erase it if you like.
> very politely put.


There's no erasing necessary at all. Your input was most welcome. I strive to be polite and caring with everyone. A new thread seems to be wanted to explore this fasinating part of ghostly lore. You'll probably even find me dropping in from time to time. So Ancestor and I would support your in-depth ghost study. Do you like the guys from TAPS, Ghost Hunters? Their season finale had an interesting take on Psychic powers. The veiw through that heat sensor camera was something else!  :Smile:

----------


## Dailen

It will be with shyness and trepidation, but I'll try starting a thread.
Like the great wizard, I am far more comfortable speaking from behind 
a curtain. 
TAPS guys....oh, when that show started up, I had already left 
Rhode Island, Had I not, You may have seen me tagging along
with them. (in the background) When I hear them speak 
- as a Propa' RoDielina' would, I miss home.
Strangely enough, I lived minutes from the store front they use now.

I am so happy for them. What they captured on film is priceless!
A full body apparition, is the Holy Grail of ghost hunting.
And It moved!
Outstanding!

----------


## Scheherazade

> All ghosts are within us.


Aye!



__________________

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## Theshizznigg

> I tought I'd start this in light of something I read on the "soul" thread, and also in light of those who have posted a belief in "life after death". My vote is "not in the usual sense.", that is, not as the departed spirits of the dead. When my children reported seeing the "ghost" of a confederate soldier in our mobile home park, my reaction was "Yeah, right." Then one evening, I stepped out on the porch about sundown, turned to the East, and there he stood in the next yard over. You couldn't see him from the knees down, as if he were standing in tall grass. My explaination: He was in his time, I was in mine, and I somehow saw him. I could see his legs, begause he WAS standing in knee-high grass. Not a departed soul, just a time lapse. That probably sounds crazy too, but give me your ideas, OK? Dragon out.



My goodness your a smart fellow. Hit the nail quite on the head. 
My homeland of Britain is one of the most haunted places in the world, and is one of the most oddly powerful places for old earth magic. 

I've seen, and heard some freaky deaky stuff, that would make peoples eyes turn, and stomachs crawl. 

As for Ghost I can think of two things really, oft time you can access spirits through mediums, yadi ya, but in my opinion many are milignant, and what from I have seen many are. 
They curse people, attach themselves to people, places, what not.
They cause trouble, possess people, all fun and sorts. 

Now the other idea, is the one you touched one Pendragon. The belief that Ghosts, are simply rips in the fabrics of time. 
There are many theories to support such ideals, and lots of un-explained evidence for occasions of short time travel. 

I personally believe it is a mixture of the two. 

Shizz.

"How long, how long, this long, oh thats long, long long, very long." 
Chinese Family reunion, The Longs.

----------


## thelordofdark

I think that ghost do exist, sometimes when I am lying on my bed I feel like if there is somebody with me right in my room, sometimes I imagine them like black skiny creatures, but to say the truth I feel very frustraighted of them, so I loud the music so that my whole thought go straight to lestin instead of thinking of such things.In my childhood when I was sleeping near my grandmother, there was a force like a pressure on my chest, I cant breath easily, and I feel like there is somebody who is very strong than me making me feel that I am weak.Even I shoat loudly nobody could hear me!
GHOST do exist, but the untasty truth is that ghost are living with us, talking with us and sharing the beds with us!

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## Theshizznigg

Fantastico!

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## Pendragon

I appologize for not answering your posts earlier, but I thought this thread was, ah, dead. Yes, England is a hot bed of ghostly stuff. I rather like the time lapse theory.

----------


## Amra

> I think that ghost do exist, sometimes when I am lying on my bed I feel like if there is somebody with me right in my room, sometimes I imagine them like black skiny creatures, but to say the truth I feel very frustraighted of them, so I loud the music so that my whole thought go straight to lestin instead of thinking of such things.In my childhood when I was sleeping near my grandmother, there was a force like a pressure on my chest, I cant breath easily, and I feel like there is somebody who is very strong than me making me feel that I am weak.Even I shoat loudly nobody could hear me!
> GHOST do exist, but the untasty truth is that ghost are living with us, talking with us and sharing the beds with us!


Maybe you should consider going to an imam to recite the holy Qur'an for you.

----------


## NightmareBeauty

I believe that there can be a supernatural world that cant be explained i.e ghosts demons, spirits, etc. Though I never encountered one myself but I want to someday!

----------


## Pendragon

> I believe that there can be a supernatural world that cant be explained i.e ghosts demons, spirits, etc. Though I never encountered one myself but I want to someday!


Careful what you wish for. You may just get it.... And from dozens of accounts that I have read, not all encounters with the paranormal or unexplained are very peaceful...




> Maybe you should consider going to an imam to recite the holy Qur'an for you.


In case of a haunting or spiritual problem, this might help, but we are only asking if people _believe_ in the possible existence of what could be termed "ghosts" or the "paranormal", not how to exorcise them. That should of course be handled by someone, as you point out, better qualifed for the job than the average person. And even then the person must take precautions.

----------


## sdr4jc

I have a hard time believing that God lets some of us wander around on earth while others are sent their eternal ways. But, it's even harder to dismiss infinate numbers of sightings, encounters, all that. So I've really searched this out in the Bible. While the Bible does not talk about ghosts, it does talk about angels and demons. I believe that there is CERTAINLY a supernatural realm that coincides with ours. I also believe that demons can inhabit or possess anything, including a person, just the same way that God can inhabit and live in things, and people. I believe that both angels and demons can take the "shape" of nearly anything, and that "ghosts" are here to test our spirits somehow.

I wish I knew more about this though. My beliefs seem shallow even to me. This is one of those shady areas that I mostly just give over to God. 

I experienced a lot of supernatural activity while in college, if anyone wants to know about it.




> Nope
> 
> But I do believe that humans are not the only sane creatures on earth, there is a whole other world here... they can see us but we can't see them, but they have their life as we do have ours... they eat, drink, learn, etc.
> 
> There could be one of them right next to you



You ever heard of the "willies?" just curious...

----------


## Theshizznigg

If I found a ghost, I think it neat. Because there just another thing that we don't know about, and God has deemed important enough to explain to us.

I wouldn't however ever mix with spiritualism, or voodoo, I've seen that stuff at work and it would turn peoples stomachs to see how much of it can actually be used as a weapon.

"The devils greatest challenge, convince you their is no God, if he fails in that respect, he tries to convince you that God is false, failing in that, he tries ever so hard to convince you he doesn't exist."

----------


## Pendragon

> I have a hard time believing that God lets some of us wander around on earth while others are sent their eternal ways. But, it's even harder to dismiss infinate numbers of sightings, encounters, all that. So I've really searched this out in the Bible. While the Bible does not talk about ghosts, it does talk about angels and demons. I believe that there is CERTAINLY a supernatural realm that coincides with ours. I also believe that demons can inhabit or possess anything, including a person, just the same way that God can inhabit and live in things, and people. I believe that both angels and demons can take the "shape" of nearly anything, and that "ghosts" are here to test our spirits somehow.
> 
> I wish I knew more about this though. My beliefs seem shallow even to me. This is one of those shady areas that I mostly just give over to God. 
> 
> I experienced a lot of supernatural activity while in college, if anyone wants to know about it.


You may, of course, share any experience you wish to and it will be listened to-- that I can assure you. But be warned! Quite often people post and then cannot take other people's criticism of their post. It will happen, and there's not much I could do about it. It's a free forum. If someone is skeptical, they are as welcome to post as one who firmly is convinced that the supernatural exists. So I just think that giving a heads up that someone may disagree and even try to debunk your experience is a likelyhood, and if you feel that you could not deal with that, maybe a PM would be better. I try hard to see that no one gets their feeling hurt on this thread, but if you post, then others have the right to answer according to their convictions. So really, it's your call. I'd like to hear your experience, myself. Take care.  :Wink:   :Nod: 




> If I found a ghost, I think it neat. Because there just another thing that we don't know about, and God has deemed important enough to explain to us.
> 
> I wouldn't however ever mix with spiritualism, or voodoo, I've seen that stuff at work and it would turn peoples stomachs to see how much of it can actually be used as a weapon.
> 
> "The devils greatest challenge, convince you their is no God, if he fails in that respect, he tries to convince you that God is false, failing in that, he tries ever so hard to convince you he doesn't exist."


Please, Shizz, we' are not debating the existence of God here. There are other threads for that purpose. This thread askes the question of ghosts and paranormal activity.

----------


## smilingtearz

an article on the net

There are many theories of what ghosts (if they indeed exist) are. Some people believe that ghosts are the residual energy left behind by an emotionally strong person or event. This theory holds that more energy/electrical impulses are expended during periods of high stress or excitement, and that the energy lingers for a long time. 

Freud thought that ghosts are actually the visions of people who are afraid of death. In this sense, ghosts would not be real at all but rather a projection of our subconcious mind. 

A somewhat plausible theory is that ghosts are telepathic images. That is, a sensitive person would pick up past vibrations from the area they were in and witness an event or person as it appeared many years ago. This would also explain instances where a person sees a loved one at or near the moment of the the loved one's death, since the loved one could be unconciously projecting their thoughts to the receptive person. 

Ghosts might also be the result of time slips, if time is nonlinear. An event that happened in the past might be seen briefly in our time because of a fluctuation in time/space. 

On his show -Mysterious World-, Arthur C. Clarke has speculated that our minds might play images to our eyes (the same way our eyes relay messages to our brain, but in reverse), almost like a movie screen. In this way ghosts would be bits of our imagination come to life. 

(http://www.ghosts.org/faq/5-10.html)

photographing a ghost
http://www.ghosts.org/faq/5-8.html

creepy... try the investigation photographs in this link, start from the last(no photos in the first few entries) 
and also go through the non-investigation photographs.. ghosts or nott.. i already have a wierd feeling around me..

http://www.ghost-investigators.com/p...hotographs.php

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## Birdy123

I think that our minds have to go somewhere when we die, so why not come back? However, i also think that a lot of people generally almost hope that ghosts exist as a way to reassure themselves that there's more to death than just lying in a box, what do you think??

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## Green Lady

I think a lot of people hope for it, but tend to doubt it. I've developed lots of theories over the years of why strange things happen, especially in well-lived in buildings and the best thing I can think of is that the majority of authentic supernatural occurances are much like an echo. The drama teacher once told us that we were the ghosts of the auditorium during one of his motivational speeches, and that makes some sense. The mind is a powerful thing and if enough emotions arise from it, we may be able to leave an impression upon the things around us that can be echoed into the future for years. I'm not saying this explains every strange ghost experience, but I think it can explain some, especially in the places where there is no evidence of someone dying like a new house. To things moving by themselves, this could be purely the power of the mind in some occurances or we're not alone, dun dun dun!

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## Pendragon

> Ghosts might also be the result of time slips, if time is nonlinear. An event that happened in the past might be seen briefly in our time because of a fluctuation in time/space. 
> 
> 
> 
> (http://www.ghosts.org/faq/5-10.html)


I, myself, ascribe to this theory. I have seen the figure of a Confederate Soldier near the house here, and he always seems to be standing in tall grass as his legs are partially obscured. But it only happens at certain times of the year. Ghost hunters would call this residual haunting, like a recording in time that replays itself over and over.

http://www.the-atlantic-paranormal-society.com/

These guys have a good site to visit.  :Nod:

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## smilingtearz

nice link Pen.. 

this one's so.. uhmm.. creepy..
http://www.the-atlantic-paranormal-s...ges/image8.htm

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## Shakira

I do believe in supernatural beings but I prefer to not to call them Ghosts. I call them Spirits - spirits which have not yet achieved their ultimate salvation & are, therefore, still roaming in this world. 

I know many people might find my stance to be illogical or childish but my personal experiences have led me to believe this.

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## umm_salama

My sister SAlam,
You must read a book ''Exorcist tradition''. This book is wrriten by Abu Amina Bilal Philip A noted scholer . You will find all your ifs and buts in it ok. sister Have a nice day. Thank you.
sister Umm_Salama

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## Truth Untold

I believe in some psychic stuff yes. I'm Wiccan so, yeah.

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## cuppajoe_9

I'll believe it when I see it.

I imagine seeing it would be really cool, though.

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## smilingtearz

If seeing is believing....

http://paranormal.about.com/library/.../aa101402a.htm

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## cuppajoe_9

"I would not this believe without the sensible and true avouch of mine own eyes"

-Horatio, in _Hamlet_



I used to fake ghost photographs as a hobby, and none of those have done very much to convince me either way. This one, however, is by far the best:

The rest of the image is in sharp focus, but the figure has a motion blur, and it does not look like a double exposure to my eyes.

I also like this one:

But I'm certain it's fake. As if actual ghosts go around with pillowcases on their heads. Is that supposed to be the ghost of a Klansman? Did he die in an explosion in a hotel laundry?

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## smilingtearz

:FRlol:   :FRlol: .. quite possible..

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## Pendragon

There is one thing you all should know about me. I'm hard to convince. Many things that have ghost hunters swooning are of no use to me. Orbs do not convince me, at least none I've ever seen taken. No picture of a supposed light anomaly has convinced me, nor one of a vortex. Few ghost pictures have. 

I don't live a mile from one of the most haunted spots in Southwest VA, The Old Stone Tavern on Highway 11. They do not encourage visitors, and refuse to try to reopen the inn, a historical landmark, because something bad has always happened every time. It's not too far a drive to Brown Mountain, NC, where the famous Brown Mountain Lights have been appearing for centuries and have yet to be explained. In Abingdon, arguably, SW VA's oldest town, The world famous Martha Washington Inn, is haunted. I know of several haunted houses of note in the area. 

I have seen ghosts, or whatever, and I subscribe to residual haunting theory. This is like a recording in time that replays when conditions are correct. Or possibly, its a point where the time stream overlaps at intervals, allowing you to see a past event. You would, by checking into the history of the place, find that those people thought it haunted, because they saw you.

The guys at TAPS, the link I gave Smilingtears have captured some wild things on their investigations. They go into one from the viewpoint of theres probably a good explanation for this, non-paranormal. They have captured on film some things that would blow your mind. Ultimately, you choose to believe or not. I can go to the average ghost picture site, and because photography is a hobby, tell you how they did some of the more obvious fakes. Others, I might have to have the negative to assure no tampering was done. Some, Ill admit I dont know. 

Happy hauntings!  :Wink:

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## thevintagepiper

I don't believe in ghosts, but I do believe that dead people's spirits can be called up...however, I also believe this is only by the power of the devil and _very_ wrong. 

I gotta say I do love that song by Tegan and Sara though....

"I was walking with a ghost
I said please, please don't insist...."

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## Pendragon

I am not big on mediums, (people who call up spirits and converse with them) myself. But some do not call up anyone, the spirit is there, they can see and hear what others cannot. Few have ever impressed me at all. 

As soon as a Psychic asks a leading question, such as "Does the name Robert have meaning for you? I become skeptical. Fishing is what I call that. 
Unknown to you, you will tell him/her things that he/she will then deduce and amaze you, since you don't recognize the game. The Psychic that makes statements, sure that he/she is correct in what he/she is saying gets my vote. There is a lot of fakery out there. This doesn't mean everything is faked. 
 :Wink:

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## sHaRp12

I do not believe in ghosts one bit. These personal occurences many of you seem to have are probably mind tricks or some other weird formation. I see ghosts as kind of silly subjects. And Im surprised that so many of you voted yes. In an enviroment filled with intelligent reasonable people I find that surprising. Ghosts are rubbish fictional characters made popular by main stream entertainment. Ugh! I just cant get over how some of you are so naive!

Science shall disprove, or prove all.

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## Pendragon

> I do not believe in ghosts one bit. These personal occurences many of you seem to have are probably mind tricks or some other weird formation. I see ghosts as kind of silly subjects. And Im surprised that so many of you voted yes. In an enviroment filled with intelligent reasonable people I find that surprising. Ghosts are rubbish fictional characters made popular by main stream entertainment. Ugh! I just cant get over how some of you are so naive!
> 
> Science shall disprove, or prove all.


Well, opposing views are always welcome. Without cynicism, most things in which people believe would have fallen apart long ago. The voice of the cynic, the one who dares to question, is what keeps those who believe on the path, because they feel they have something to prove now. That there are things that are far from easy to explain is my own viewpoint, and my vote is "not in the usual sense". Still I have seen and experienced things I cannot explain. 

I live about a half-mile (straight line, not by road), from an historical tavern. It remains closed, despite efforts to reopen it several times. It has a haunted reputation; and the owners refuse to even say much about it. I'd love to go inside and check it out. It is centuries old. But, que sera, sera. People will believe what they believe, and you cannot shake them. 

Science has some explanations and they are solid. But it's not that far to Brown Mountain, NC, famous for its Ghost Lights. I have yet to hear an explanation that will hold water. They don't know what causes the lights. Are they ghosts? I really don't think so. But what are they? That, we just don't know. They have appeared on that mountain as long as man can remember. Everyone's tried to explain them. Nobody has come up with a good reason for them. They're wild to see...  :Nod:

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## Danika_Valin

I don't know if I believe in "ghosts," but I do believe in strange circumstances that cannot be explained by science. I've had "unique experiences," and even though there are paranormal terms and theories to describe various phenomena, I don't know how to describe what happened. I don't know how to explain it. Do souls of dead people still roam the earth? Could be, but maybe not. Do tragic events leave a psychic imprint on the places they take place? Who knows. All I can say is that there are things that I can't understand and they don't seem to have any rational explanation. Maybe there isn't a rational explanation, or maybe I just haven't found one.

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## Ryan_002

Ghosts exist as a matter of perspective, as a form of interpretating the world, in the way that Gods do. However, the fact that something is of a cultural or psychological origin does not mean it is less real. Hence, ghosts are real.

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## Ancestor

Wow, you leave for a while and a thread really builds up which is all good. Lately I have run into people saying that someone whom has seen a ghost or Spirit which I perfer to call them is mentally ill. It is a touchy subject but for I know that Spirits do exist and that it is not a figment of my imagination. I also feel the energy that humans who are alive have and when they are deceased. I for one wonder how many people truly think outside the box we place ourselves in.

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## Embarr

alot of those pictures that are supposedly ghosts don't really convince me. I especially don't like the orbs and votex stuff. One person made a book about their paranormal experiences and put a few of the pictures they'd taken into it. They placed a sample of a room where dust had been disturbed and one that hadn't. The one that hadn't was suppose to hold the real orbs but to me the dust one looked just the same. People see a difference because they want to. And they had taken a picture of a votex in their book but anyone with enough sense would have seen that it was just part of a spiderweb really close to the lense. Strange things in pictures can be easily explained without turning to the paranormal. If it was an apparition that appeared in the photo (so long as it isn't tampered with) I'd probably believe that. Anything else I'm a skeptic to.

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## Pendragon

For the record, I'm not thrilled by pictures of orbs or vortex shots as they are almost certainly either dust, water, snowflakes, in the case of orbs, and camera straps, fingers, and strings in the case of vortex shots. Few ghost pictures I have ever seen impressed me at all. And here is a point I wish to make: Why do people assume that it has to be dark for a ghost to manifest itself? If they are, as many claim, not aware that they are even dead, why would they be afraid of the daylight? If you go on the hypothesis that what you see is a glitch in the fabric of time, again daylight has no place where you must factor it in. I've seen things I could not explain in broad daylight, in well lit houses, and felt the weird feelings. So, why do you need to "go dark"?

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## Embarr

Because it's far more mysterious  :Biggrin:  .

I think I've come across a few pictures that were taken in daylight. I don't know if they were real or not, but you never know. Maybe it's just easier to see them when it's dark? Of course, this would suggest that they give off some sort of light.

As far as pictures go, I'm a big skeptic but they are fun to look at occasionally. One of my sisters had a strange experience once though, and so did my mom so I'm willing to believe them. My sis was lying in bed one night and she felt something brush her leg and then suddenly the light came on in her room. It's one of those lights that has a remote control so there wasn't any flipping of switches. Then my mom was at a hotel and she felt something small, like a child, get up on the bed and lay behind her like it was cuddling up. There was something freaky with the shower and tub in her room too. Shower would suddenly get cold, and the jets in the tub would suddenly go off on her. And cliche of all cliches in scary stories, she was on the 13th floor.

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## Virgil

While I beleive in an after life and spirituality, God, and even angels, but I do not believe in paranormal. Sorry.

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## Embarr

how 'bout loved ones watching over us? I would think they'd occasionally want to see how we're doing or something like that.

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## PierreGringoire

I don't see ghosts. Is there something wrong with me?

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## subterranean

> I also like this one:
> 
> But I'm certain it's fake. As if actual ghosts go around with pillowcases on their heads. Is that supposed to be the ghost of a Klansman? Did he die in an explosion in a hotel laundry?



Funny stuff, Joe  :FRlol:  
He looks familiar.

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## Pendragon

> I don't see ghosts. Is there something wrong with me?


You sound fairly normal to me, mon ami! I always think the things I have seen were some type of time wrinkle or something, not a dead person come back. There are sme weird places out there though, that I really have no desire to explore and see what's going on, more power to those who do!  :Tongue: 




> I also like this one:
> 
> But I'm certain it's fake. As if actual ghosts go around with pillowcases on their heads. Is that supposed to be the ghost of a Klansman? Did he die in an explosion in a hotel laundry?


That one has been floating around (hee-hee) out there for a long while. I've never been impressed. Even if you assume the white area to be a skull, why would the figure be so out of shape-- elongated? No, this one hits my list of fakes in a hurry. The Ghost Hunters (TAPS) based in Rhode Island, have a TV show, and I've seen some impressive footage. And they've caught some fakes, someone messed with their equipment once to fake a bed unmaking itself. They thought they had good footage, but a sharp-eyed member of the crew caught the pause in the action where the faker had stopped the camera.

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## Kareniyna

"I'm open minded on the subject. I've also had odd occurrences to totally discount ghosts or the paranormal - but then again there's always the very slim possibilty that it's all in my head.[/QUOTE]

have experienced and felt the same. Wonder how many ppl experience unusual occurrences and wonder if it's "all in their head"? What would it take to 'convince' one?

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## tiny explorer

i always thought things like that are just the creation of our wild minds...but if you come to see one,you'll barely believe!like me...wheew,i never thought it was really true till i come to see one.no it wasn't just an imagination.




> I don't see ghosts. Is there something wrong with me?


i wish i dont see ghosts too!!! that's a bit normal and that will be better! at least i won't worry to see one in an unfortunate moment.

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## Ancestor

Lately I have seen a full apparition which is a bit unusual for me although it does not frighten me since I have always been sensitive to spirits all my life.

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## blacksheep

i see/hear/feel "paranormal" stuff and i used to believe in the paranormal. which is why i joined the forum at ghosts.org. anyone interested in the paranormal should check it out. now i believe that i have a more than slightly perturbed mind.

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## Pendragon

> i see/hear/feel "paranormal" stuff and i used to believe in the paranormal. which is why i joined the forum at ghosts.org. anyone interested in the paranormal should check it out. now i believe that i have a more than slightly perturbed mind.


Why? Because someone else told you that you were being delusional? I have seen very little in the way of evidence that I find convincing, and many things that I don't believe to be faked, could have been, if one knew how. Now comes a good question. The people out there that claim that personal experiences are not to be taken as evidence are the same ones that would sit on a jury and sentence a criminal to death based on eyewitness testimony, which they would call "rock solid evidence." Is this a double-standard or what?  :Rolleyes:  If it fits what they want to prove, yes, eyewitness account is perfect evidence. If it fits something they deny existence, "Oh, the mind plays tricks, and one is so easily fooled in to thinking one saw this or that but when examined by a rational mind (skeptic), it falls apart easily. Yas, you see what you want, don't you?  :Wink:

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## statman

I am a scientist who considers all hypotheses untrue unless they are overcome by consistent experimental evidence to the contrary. "Ghosts exist" is an hypothesis that has been tested many times with results that do not allow, using the rules of science, a rejection of the null hypothesis, i.e., that ghosts no not exist. Antecdotal evidence from personal experience notoriously is unreliable.

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## Ancestor

As a person whom believes through personal experience I can tell you that somethings you just cannot prove through science. I do however believe that people whom are skeptic need to express their opinions to help balance out the issues of life. I cannot explain how I knew certian things without having the schooling to back it up. I can sense cancer and serious illness within people when there is now logical way I should be able to. What happens when we do not yet have the science to back up what we know to be true when a doctor confirms what you already knew without any medical knowledge?

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## cuppajoe_9

Again, I have to point out that you cannot 'prove' anything in science. Proofs happen in logic and math. What you do in science is develop a theory that explains all the available evidence.

----------


## blacksheep

pendragon, i hope i don't see what I want to see. I think that I think I'm insane because insanity runs in my family. my mother saw ghosts of her mother. my grandma has sleepwalked to cemetaries and was caught digging at a random grave while she was asleep. she was diagnosed with schizophrenia and other random diseases and was put into an asylum. when she was released, she commited suicide for unknown reasons. my mom... well, she's crazy. I hope I'm not crazy but the appearances of paranormal activity seem to fit precisely into my mood and embarrasingly, my period cycles. I have never seen anything completely solid. I've hear mostly whispers or voices that are indistinguishable. and lots of music. Whenever I do see anything, it's in the dark.
well, at least that means i havent gotten to be as insane as my grandma who saw stuff everywhere...
(don't tell me to go see a psychologist)

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## Pendragon

> pendragon, i hope i don't see what I want to see. I think that I think I'm insane because insanity runs in my family. my mother saw ghosts of her mother. my grandma has sleepwalked to cemetaries and was caught digging at a random grave while she was asleep. she was diagnosed with schizophrenia and other random diseases and was put into an asylum. when she was released, she commited suicide for unknown reasons. my mom... well, she's crazy. I hope I'm not crazy but the appearances of paranormal activity seem to fit precisely into my mood and embarrasingly, my period cycles. I have never seen anything completely solid. I've hear mostly whispers or voices that are indistinguishable. and lots of music. Whenever I do see anything, it's in the dark.
> well, at least that means i havent gotten to be as insane as my grandma who saw stuff everywhere...
> (don't tell me to go see a psychologist)


Since you asked me not to, I won't ask you to go. But consider this. If you are aware that an predisposure to this type of illness runs in your family, and there has already been one suicide, don't you think that you might need to get some help? I know that having to admit to a problem is hard, I have bi-polar with severe complications that make me unemployable, so I'm classified as disabled. I must take more than 14 pills daily (after my latest increase in medication, about a week ago.) I have an IQ of 140. I am shunned by many, that's true. Their loss, not mine. All I will ask is don't let this thing go so far that it destroys you because you fear getting help. If I can talk to you and help in any way here's my e-mail [email protected] Just mention blacksheep in the "about" line. Otherwise my e-mail filter might toss it. I'll be praying for you.

Pen




> I have seen very little in the way of evidence that I find convincing, and many things that I don't believe to be faked, could have been, if one knew how. Now comes a good question. The people out there that claim that personal experiences are not to be taken as evidence are the same ones that would sit on a jury and sentence a criminal to death based on eyewitness testimony, which they would call "rock solid evidence." Is this a double-standard or what?






> I am a scientist who considers all hypotheses untrue unless they are overcome by consistent experimental evidence to the contrary. "Ghosts exist" is an hypothesis that has been tested many times with results that do not allow, using the rules of science, a rejection of the null hypothesis, i.e., that ghosts no not exist. Antecdotal evidence from personal experience notoriously is unreliable.


Didn't take very long to prove that statement at all. The Dragon rests the case. Let our scientist sit on a jury, and eyewitness testimony be all the evidence they have to present, and then see if it becomes "Notoriously Unreliable."

----------


## Ancestor

> Again, I have to point out that you cannot 'prove' anything in science. Proofs happen in logic and math. What you do in science is develop a theory that explains all the available evidence.


When there is a scientific test that can prove I knew before a doctor even saw my Sister what medical condition she had. I have no way of knowing about such things since I never studied medicine. You only have my word and I know today one's word is not worth anything but that is all I can give.

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## Shadowsarin

I'm open on the subject, but very skeptical. Too many people have faked and such in the past for it to be wise to blindly believe anything. However, to be utterly honest, if I could know for ceirtain there were Ghosts and such, I would rarther not know. I get scared worryingly easily by these things.

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## Niamh

I voted yes because i have had a few paranormal experiences.

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## Kelly_Sprout

Throughout time, and from all corners of the world, all forms of religion have had one thing in common: a belief in a spiritual realm that cannot be discerned, measured, or explained by the physical or natural world. It doesn't matter if you consider aboriginal native beliefs, prehistory peoples, death rituals, the mythologies of the Greeks, Romans, Babylonians or Chinese, the leading religions of the world such as Buddaism, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, or the emerging religions of the future such as Scientology or what I sometimes refer to as "Starwarism" (as in _"Use the force, Luke!"_).

How can so many people and cultures, some of them completely isolated from the others, in time, in geography, and in philosophy, all have the same idea that there is "another world out there" which has no physical properties, but rather, contains the essence or spirit of everything, and that this spiritual realm can interact with the physical realm, even though the physical realm cannot interact with the spiritual realm?

With our western devotion to science, we call this imaginary spiritual realm "the paranormal" because we cannot interact with it, sense it, or measure it in any meaningful, scientific way. Ah, but by that definition, our very thoughts must also be called "the paralogical" because there is no scientific way to measure, observe or prove thoughts, either. Therefore, I call arguments both pro and con about the existance of ghosts, spirits, the paranormal and the unexplained, "Paralogical discussions."

There is far too much diversity in the physical realm -- from the expanding universe to elemental atoms with specific properties that, when combined with other elemental atoms into molecules, exhibit completely unrelated properties, to the origins of life, to the definition of life, to the duration of life, to relativity to special relativity, to the very real probability that there are many more (perhaps endlessly more) dimensions than the four we can observe -- to dismiss the idea that a spiritual realm might also exist.

So, do I believe in ghosts? No.

Do I believe in what ghosts are about? Yes.

----------


## brainstrain

I believe that hautings and such things are rediculous, and created to bring tourists. But to an extent I do believe in the paranormal. Most people at my church see believing in the paranormal as ungodly, but Jesus cast out demons and such didn't he? I believe that could be classified as supernatural.

I'm not sure what I believe, and I doubt I will ever need to decide. As long as tennis balls dont start following me around I think indecision is fine ^_^

I am, as always, open-minded.

----------


## pjohara

If you are a person that reads and places value in Holy Scripture, there is account given of spiritual beings existing. Some of them have been referred to as "Demons"; e.g., the third of the angels that joined Satan, Adam and Eve in the rebellion against God.

The term "ghost" is, I believe, an older word meaning a "spirit".

As for the paranormal, there is a large body of literature and much research being done in this area, like parapsychology. There is also testimony to the affects/effects of unseen forces operating about us. We cannot see some of the electromagnetic spectrum with our eyes, but with certain instruments we can. Also, we can sense/feel this radiation (and other forces) at times as many persons have testified.

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## farnoosh

ok,i know this sounds a little bit crazy,but i have nightmares about ghosts and zombies and vampires and,etc.and i think they are real!!!
Take a look..
(these things are from my computer,but my sister got them from the internet .if i found out wich site it is I'll give it to you).

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## NikolaiI

Mm, I didn't look, but what's wrong with that? If you don't have something big in your life going on or changing, then you don't have to worry about them. It's more important what is going in your waking life. Your dreams should fade away, I should think. - er, I know that that sounds bad, but you know what I mean. I don't mean dreams as in aspirations, but tell me, are your nightmares a problem? I have nightmares occasionally but seldom. I don't think there's any problem.

Or do you mean when you wake up you think that you have actually been visited by ghosts and zombies?

I'm sure I've had zombie dreams, hell I've watched 28 days later enough times for that. Lately I haven't really been remembering my dreams.

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## farnoosh

I feel them in my room ,its horrible!

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## BulletproofDork

It's interesting to see what people have to say. . .
I actually voted no, (I'm a Christian), until I realized that Satan, is ,I guess, a sort of demon.
Hmmmmm. . . . . :Smile:

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## Bakiryu

Yes, I can read palms and sometimes I swear there are faces in the nights. It sounds stupid but true.

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## LadyWentworth

Well, I am a 100% firm believer in ghosts/spirits (whatever you choose to call them).

I have just had too many different experiences with them to not be anything but a believer. Then there are the experiences that other family members have experienced that make you believe.

The house we all grew up in really had some stuff happen. Then there are incidents at other places (i.e. my Gettysburg moment - yes, I had one!).

I try not to talk about it too much, though, because I swear people think I am crazy. Like I said, though, other people I know have had experiences, too.

When I was talking to a co-worker about it a few years ago, my boss overheard and just said "Noooo". I looked at her and said "What would I gain by lying? I sure as hell don't want the attention over something like that!!".

So, having said all that, again, yes I will say that I beleive!

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## stephofthenight

my house has a ghost, a young girl died here, and she likes to move things, we have never realy been bothered by it, because she just moves silverwear, opens drawers, moves keys, we once found all of our keys, cell phones and wallets in the freezer. verry strange seeings how we have a bowl on the oposite end of the house where all of that goes lol.

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## Demian

I believe in the Otherworld. But since our perceptions of it are seen 'through a glass darkly' what I'd really like to know is if ghosts (spirits) believe in us.




> Why? Because someone else told you that you were being delusional? I have seen very little in the way of evidence that I find convincing, and many things that I don't believe to be faked, could have been, if one knew how. Now comes a good question. The people out there that claim that personal experiences are not to be taken as evidence are the same ones that would sit on a jury and sentence a criminal to death based on eyewitness testimony, which they would call "rock solid evidence." Is this a double-standard or what?  If it fits what they want to prove, yes, eyewitness account is perfect evidence. If it fits something they deny existence, "Oh, the mind plays tricks, and one is so easily fooled in to thinking one saw this or that but when examined by a rational mind (skeptic), it falls apart easily. Yas, you see what you want, don't you?


"For those who believe, no evidence is necesarry. For those that do not, none shall suffice." 
-Source unknown

Seeing is not believing. Believing is seeing.

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## NikolaiI

Well yes, but that's why they say the accounts are not to be taken as evidence...the mind makes patterns, it sees them in everything, the clouds, the cereal, the grass, rocks, trees...ooh, especially trees. I used to have a tree I thought was somehow a person or something, it was right outside my window and I thought it was sentient.

I don't believe in Ghosts, or Faeries, but my mind isn't closed about them. I have other ideas that fall into similar lines...but I don't really think there's anything supernatural or paranormal. If there are ghosts, then they are natural and normal, and are meant to be here. Unless they are people who stayed because of un-finished business, and all that, but that seems so far fetched to me..

----------


## LadyWentworth

I've always felt that ghosts/spirits basically never made it to the "other side" (wherever that is!) because of the way that they had died. Generally that would be in a tragic way. So, their souls are unsettled. Then I do believe that there are the ones that don't really realize that they are gone. 

I can't help it. As I've said before, just too many things have happened in my life and other mambers of my family. I can't be anything but a believer.

----------


## Gadget Girl

Yes, I do believe in them, but I don't really think about them most of the times because the more you think, the more it becomes true and that makes me shiver.  :Cold:

----------


## Pensive

A friend once said, "I am paranormal myself!" I would go with that one.  :Tongue:

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## Niamh

I believe in ghosts. I took this in the Blair Street vaults in Edinburgh. What ya think? :Tongue:

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## AimusSage

> I believe in ghosts. I took this in the Blair Street vaults in Edinburgh. What ya think?


I think if there is a fire one needs to exit to the left. Not seeing any ghosts though.

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## Niamh

maybe its just me then. I can see a dark shadowy figure under the arch. ANd there was no one esle there as i was the last person through the arch and i keep feeling like there was someone behind me......

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## Lote-Tree

No. There is no paranormal. There is only normal.

Things we can't explain is regarded as Paranormal.

But once explained - it is regarded as normal.

Paranormal is the unknown. But when the unknown becomes known it is not paranormal anymore....

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## Niamh

> No. There is no paranormal. There is only normal.
> 
> Things we can't explain is regarded as Paranormal.
> 
> But once explained - it is regarded as normal.
> 
> Paranormal is the unknown. But when the unknown becomes known it is not paranormal anymore....


Oddly enough Lote, i think i have to agree with this statement.( Yeap theres a first for everything... :Tongue:  )

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## AimusSage

> maybe its just me then. I can see a dark shadowy figure under the arch. ANd there was no one esle there as i was the last person through the arch and i keep feeling like there was someone behind me......


Now that you mention it, there is a bit of a darker part in the stones beneath the arch, but I wouldn't call it a ghost.

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## Lote-Tree

> Yeap theres a first for everything... )


LOL  :Biggrin: 

My thoughts are nought but your own thoughts in sound
And my deeds your hopes in action  :Biggrin:

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## Niamh

> Now that you mention it, there is a bit of a darker part in the stones beneath the arch, but I wouldn't call it a ghost.


Probably isnt but i'm gonna keep pretending all the same! :Tongue:  Very eerie place though! Was surrounded by the smell of stale whiskey and sweat at one point as well. Thought i was imagining things until the tour guide told us all that some times people sense this very smell. I am a bit clairsentient anyway....and cliraudient....

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## AimusSage

> Probably isnt but i'm gonna keep pretending all the same! Very eerie place though! Was surrounded by the smell of stale whiskey and sweat at one point as well. Thought i was imagining things until the tour guide told us all that some times people sense this very smell. I am a bit clairsentient anyway....and cliraudient....


All this extra sensory perception makes the mind go round and round in circles.  :Smile:  Just don't let an American TV producer know, they'll want you in one of their silly paranormal TV shows.  :Eek:   :Tongue:

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## Niamh

> All this extra sensory perception makes the mind go round and round in circles.  Just don't let an American TV producer know, they'll want you in one of their silly paranormal TV shows.


Actually i'd love that! :FRlol:   :Biggrin:  (but not one of the american ones... That girly ghost hunters is the worst programme i've seen on telly in a long time!)
I'm jealous of the most haunted crew. If only they needed an Ex Archaeologist bookseller! :Rolleyes:  One can dream!

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## LadyWentworth

> That girly ghost hunters is the worst programme i've seen on telly in a long time!
> 
> I'm jealous of the most haunted crew.



What "girly ghost hunters" show is that? 

I would LOVE to be on "Most Haunted"!! I have tried to win the trip to go to the UK for the Halloween "Most Haunted Live" event. I, of course, didn't win!! I *NEVER* win anything! So, I am _hoping_ that they offer it again. I won't give up! I will try again!

Then I wanted to enter the "Ghost Hunters" (Sci-Fi channel program) contest to be the next ghost hunter with TAPS. Of course I couldn't enter that because I had absolutely NOBODY to help me out with sending in a film of myself. You had to either do it over the internet or send in a DVD of yourself. I couldn't do either one. I know no one who has the capability to do either one of those things. 

Then there is finally a paranormal investigation team in the state where I live that is affiliated with TAPS (the first one in the state so far). They recently accepted new applicants, but I couldn't apply. You have to live within 60 miles from the town where the headquarters is located. I live *3 hours* away!

Life is SO tough sometimes  :Frown:

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## Niamh

There is a programme that does sometimes be on living tv called Girly Ghost Hunters. Its really bad. I'd also love to be on most haunted live. :Frown:

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## Sweets America

I was wondering what you thought about paranormal phenomena:
Do you believe in ghosts/telepathy/past lives/telekinesy... and other kinds of strange things?
Are you afraid of that?
Have you already witnessed an event/phenomenon that you have not been able to explain? 
If not, would you like to witness one?

Personally I have always wanted to go to houses which are said to be haunted, out of curiosity. I am intrigued with the unknown.

EDIT: Ok, my thread was useless. :Frown:   :Frown:   :Bawling:  The only thread I make is useless, nice.  :Smile:

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## PrinceMyshkin

> I was wondering what you thought about paranormal phenomena:
> Do you believe in ghosts/telepathy/past lives/telekinesy... and other kinds of strange things?
> Are you afraid of that?
> Have you already witnessed an event/phenomenon that you have not been able to explain? 
> If not, would you like to witness one?
> 
> Personally I have always wanted to go to houses which are said to be haunted, out of curiosity. I am intrigued with the unknown.
> 
> EDIT: Ok, my thread was useless.   The only thread I make is useless, nice.


Yes, it's very disappointing when one starts a thread - especially if one hasn't done so before - only to have it be combined with some other one; although in this case the two are indeed similar.

But, to answer your question: No, I have never witnessed what might be considered a paranormal phenomenon and though I prefer to think of myself as open-minded, I would NOT want to witness one as it would be a cataclysmic challenge to my essentially materialistic view of the world.

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## Sweets America

> Yes, it's very disappointing when one starts a thread - especially if one hasn't done so before - only to have it be combined with some other one; although in this case the two are indeed similar.
> 
> But, to answer your question: No, I have never witnessed what might be considered a paranormal phenomenon and though I prefer to think of myself as open-minded, I would NOT want to witness one as it would be a cataclysmic challenge to my essentially materialistic view of the world.


Thanks.  :Tongue:  
I am open minded too, and I would love seing a strange event. I have no materialistic view of the world.  :Tongue:  

Oh, I am thinking: maybe if I created a thread about these sweet creatures that are Platypuses, it would not be moved? I'm sure nobody else has talked about Platypuses.  :Biggrin:

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## PrinceMyshkin

> Thanks.  
> I am open minded too, and I would love seing a strange event. I have no materialistic view of the world.  
> 
> Oh, I am thinking: maybe if I created a thread about these sweet creatures that are Platypuses, it would not be moved? I'm sure nobody else has talked about Platypuses.


YES! Platypuses have been totally overlooked on this site! We are so bloody anthropocentric here!

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## Niamh

Sweets,
Any thread that is similar or of the same context of an already existing thread will be merged as par forum rules etc. That is why it is advisable to always search the forums before creating a thread. It happens everday here so dont feel hard done by because i merged yours with an already existing thread. :Smile:  
And maybe people will discuss platypus'. Stranger things have happened on this forum. :Tongue:

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## dramasnot6

A friend of mine did a world-wide quiz on Wii, there was the question "Do you believe in ghosts?". The country with the highest proportion of "yes" answers was Japan, the country with the fewest was Austria.

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## Niamh

If you can, could you get the list and maybe post the top twenty? Pretty pretty please?  :Angel:

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## LadyWentworth

> A friend of mine did a world-wide quiz on Wii, there was the question "Do you believe in ghosts?". The country with the highest proportion of "yes" answers was Japan, the country with the fewest was Austria.





> If you can, could you get the list and maybe post the top twenty? Pretty pretty please?


I was just about to say the same thing!  :Biggrin:  So, there are two people here that would definitely love to read that!  :Biggrin:

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## Granny5

Being from the South, I do believe that there could possibly be souls roaming around lost. Or maybe they are watching over the ones they left behind. All things are possible. I have never seen one, but I know folks who have and I don't believe they are making things up or crazy or anything like that.

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## mercy_mankind

There are things that occur in our lives , 
we do not find a scientific explanation, because there is another world invisible to us, but things happen often indicate their presence. As for me, 
I believe in jinn existence with full faith This is also part of my doctrine, the Quran talked about the jinn in more than one position, and there is a complete verse with the name of jinn




> In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
> [72:1]
> 
> Say (O Muhammad): It is revealed unto me that a company of the Jinn gave ear, and they said: Lo! we have heard a marvellous Qur’an,
> 
> 
> [72:2]
> 
> Which guideth unto righteousness, so we believe in it and we ascribe no partner unto our Lord.
> ...


((And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a flame in wait for him.))

I think that most of us saw that flame in the sky at night , that flame make a strange movement and then disappear , as if it had finished its mission.

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## mazHur

Did you ever experience supernatural phenomena ? well those of you who have experienced any unusual or mysterious happening in life which cannot be explained on scientific basis not only I would be pleased to know about it but it would also provide some food for thought to those who either don't believe in magic, clairvoyance, intuition or the like or who are skeptical about such things. 

Okay, let's go!

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## novelsryou

Getting up and going to work every day seems like Deja Vu all over again.

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## blazeofglory

Every day I have a mysterious feeling. I had indeed experienced them.
Everything in the world is a mysterious phenomenon, and we all are mysterious beings.

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## The Atheist

> Did you ever experience supernatural phenomena ? well those of you who have experienced any unusual or mysterious happening in life which cannot be explained on scientific basis ...



How would someone know whether what they saw/felt/heard cannot be explained by science?

A person would need to be an expert at a large number of sciences to state that science could not possibly explain it. Maybe a theoretical neurosurgeon and psychologist with a PhD in phsyics and a strong interest in the action of light on the human retina, but for 99.99999% of people, the proposition is quite meaningless.

When people say that something is "beyond science", that usually equates to "I can't explain it." Another point is that humans make shocking eyewitnesses. Ask any cop about the complete unreliability of eyewitness testimony.

Still, good idea for a subject, I'm always keen to explore stories of supposedly supernatural phenomena.




> ...not only I would be pleased to know about it but it would also provide some food for thought to those who either don't believe in magic, clairvoyance, intuition or the like or who are skeptical about such things.


Food for thought is right, although I have to confess that I suspect the dish is likely to be a little stale. To date, not one instance of genuine supernatural/paranormal phenomena has been shown to have happened and every claim has a rational explanation. 

Let's see what comes out....

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## cipherdecoy

Déjà vu is a very common phenomenon and I think most of us have experienced it sometime in our lives. There is a scientific explanation for it I think, though I've forgotten what it was. I believe it was from one of those Time articles.

As for other supernatural phenomena, like ghosts/spirits, I haven't experienced them, and thank God I haven't  :Sick:

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## wilbur lim

Precisely,déjà vu is too cliche,we invariably do what we need to do what we should do virtually everyday.Phenomenon is peculiar to one,for the chosen one would suffer in anguish.I did not hitherto been through phenomenon and extraterrestrial things,unless I literally see a UFO or a ghost.But being a Christian and obey God makes that not to happen.

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## mazHur

> Every day I have a mysterious feeling. I had indeed experienced them.
> Everything in the world is a mysterious phenomenon, and we all are mysterious beings.


Blaze, thanks for joining in. What I am looking for is something , something 'supernatural' or 'magical'-----unexplainable and weird ---that one might have experienced personally. For example, there are reports that some people died and were taken for burial when they suddenly got up!

One gotta be something of a Poe to experience such mysteries or more! :Smile:

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## RoCKiTcZa

I just noticed something in the number of replies and views for this thread, that when read horizontally they display the very interesting number "666." I wonder what this means?  :Tongue:

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## mazHur

> I just noticed something in the number of replies and views for this thread, that when read horizontally they display the very interesting number "666." I wonder what this means?


It means nothing! The number is now 866!  :Smile: 

if you want to learn more about this superstitious belief regarding the number 666 (why seen horizontally and not verically? How would Einstein's e=mcsquare seem if read 'vertically' ??) here is a link

http://www.free-press-release.com/ne...136651762.html

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## LadyW

Yes I have funnily enough, about 3 years ago now. Unfortunately, I don't think any of the close relatives or friends I told actually believed what I was saying; either that, or they put it down to a mere trick of the mind. Maybe it was... but it sure didn't seem like it at the time.

I was lying in bed, very hot and uncomfortable; I couldn't sleep at all. So I propped my pillow up, and sat there wide awake. I noticed this figure at the bottom of my bed. It looked like someone sat on the floor in a long white veil and dress. I just froze completely - I couldn't scream, I couldn't move. 

Eventually I gathered myself together and threw the bedcovers over me, praying that when I got back up, it would be gone.

About 10 minutes later, I mustered the strength to uncover myself. It was still there. This time, although I was still scared, I didn't feel a need to hide; I was actually rather curious. So I crawled forward and took a closer look, it was just there gazing at me. It looked rather like an old lady with big grey eyes in this veil. 

After this, I just lay back in bed and fell asleep; by morning it had gone. But there was nothing at the end of my bed that I could have mistaken to be anything else...

----------


## mazHur

> Yes I have funnily enough, about 3 years ago now. Unfortunately, I don't think any of the close relatives or friends I told actually believed what I was saying; either that, or they put it down to a mere trick of the mind. Maybe it was... but it sure didn't seem like it at the time.
> 
> I was lying in bed, very hot and uncomfortable; I couldn't sleep at all. So I propped my pillow up, and sat there wide awake. I noticed this figure at the bottom of my bed. It looked like someone sat on the floor in a long white veil and dress. I just froze completely - I couldn't scream, I couldn't move. 
> 
> Eventually I gathered myself together and threw the bedcovers over me, praying that when I got back up, it would be gone.
> 
> About 10 minutes later, I mustered the strength to uncover myself. It was still there. This time, although I was still scared, I didn't feel a need to hide; I was actually rather curious. So I crawled forward and took a closer look, it was just there gazing at me. It looked rather like an old lady with big grey eyes in this veil. 
> 
> After this, I just lay back in bed and fell asleep; by morning it had gone. But there was nothing at the end of my bed that I could have mistaken to be anything else...


intersting experience, LadyW but it sounds more like a dream,,,,,,or perhaps hallucination

We all talk about magic , mysteries and weird but there's hardly anyone who has physically happened to deal with them in real life. I experienced one ----unexpalined one,,,before several living witnesses and it still amazes me as to how that could have happened?? That was a REAL mystery!

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## papayahed

> Food for thought is right, although I have to confess that I suspect the dish is likely to be a little stale. To date, not one instance of genuine supernatural/paranormal phenomena has been shown to have happened and every claim has a rational explanation. 
> 
> Let's see what comes out....


Wow, now that's a bold statement, every single instance? How do you quantify that?

----------


## mazHur

> Wow, now that's a bold statement, every single instance? How do you quantify that?


Yes, I went through the experience personally and physically in the presence of several witnesses,,,I still can't figure out how that could happen? 

I tried the 'experiment' again at a friend's house, though the result was not as good as before but it left everyone present with their mouths open!

----------


## LadyW

> intersting experience, LadyW but it sounds more like a dream,,,,,,or perhaps hallucination


No it definitely wasn't a dream, but I'm willing to except it was a hallucination... who knows, really  :Smile:  But it was certainly an experience - real or not, haha.

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## blazeofglory

I had moments like this

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## wilbur lim

I did not hitherto see a UFO before.These extraterrestrial aliens in the UFO reputed curse some people and make them psycho or suddenly loss their consciousness.Aliens would apparently rule the Earth,is it genuine or a myth?

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## manolia

> No it definitely wasn't a dream, but I'm willing to except it was a hallucination... who knows, really  But it was certainly an experience - real or not, haha.


I had a similar experience many times in my life. I don't believe in supernatular phenomena so i asked a friend of mine, a doctor, and he told me that there is a state of sleep where you actually sleep with your eyes half open and you are not exactly asleep (something in the middle) and you have a consciousness of the world around you and make it part of your dream. This happens in periods of stress etc..he told me what the name of this state is but i forgot both the name and the full explanation. Anyway what i saw all these times is somewhat what you explained in your previous post..a strange distorted face, wringled and veiled, possibly threatening..the doctor said that what i really saw was my bedsheets which at this point may have taken a weird shape. My half sleeping mind turned those bedsheets into a face  :Wink:

----------


## blazeofglory

Things happen and science follow in to define them.

----------


## mazHur

> Things happen and science follow in to define them.



No, Blaze, no. Science is still inchoate and 'swinging in Nature's cradle''!

There are yet no explanations to many many mysteries of the physical and paranatural phenomena! Just look aroud and you will be more than amazed!

----------


## The Atheist

> Wow, now that's a bold statement, every single instance? How do you quantify that?


Because most, if not all, paranormal claims have been investigated and not one has had any believable evidence whatsoever.

Even the Parapsychological Association admits that almost all cases of paramormality are false, but that their own results are true, however, upon verification, the PA results themselves have been shown to be wrongly interpreted.

I'm pretty comfortable in claiming that not one single instance of paranormality remains unsolved.

----------


## mazHur

> Because most, if not all, paranormal claims have been investigated and not one has had any believable evidence whatsoever.
> 
> Even the Parapsychological Association admits that almost all cases of paramormality are false, but that their own results are true, however, upon verification, the PA results themselves have been shown to be wrongly interpreted.
> 
> I'm pretty comfortable in claiming that not one single instance of paranormality remains unsolved.



I am witness to a paranormal scene

Wild healthy and active pigeons loosely held in hand when released were not able to take off for considerable time,,,,some took upto one hour, others more,and some could only flit,,very few could take a straight dive into the sky,,,and the one that was first 'touched' couldn't even move! Instead, his eyes bulged out, red as fire, he trembled and his neck elongated to double its length so I could count every digit of his vertebrae, his feathers fluffed, the shine of his feathers dulled down to a deadly fade! I shoes him, shouted , made noise but nothing would make him budge, He was just dying!


It was horrible. All this happened in the presence of 6 other people in my house! I picked up the dying pigeon and gently placed him in the open so that he could get away. But ot my amazement he just couldnt move! My staff and I stood afar watching as to what happened next but the weird bird won't move from its place! Then suddently a cat then a dog tried to approach him but to our amazement they turned back after taking a few steps ahead and went their way without coming near the bird! The place where the bird 'stood' was an open field ,,,,,,with no other people or noise there! this happened about 12 years ago!

How would my friends here explain this? Atleast i can't figure out what happened to the bird and why the bird could'nt fly,,,why it began to die?? :Biggrin:

----------


## papayahed

> Because most, if not all, paranormal claims have been investigated and not one has had any believable evidence whatsoever.


seriously? that's your response to "How do you quantify that?". Your response is almost as good as saying "because I said so"?






> Even the Parapsychological Association admits that almost all cases of paramormality are false, but that their own results are true, however, upon verification, the PA results themselves have been shown to be wrongly interpreted.
> 
> I'm pretty comfortable in claiming that not one single instance of paranormality remains unsolved


1) huh?
2) got links?

----------


## Shalot

A ghost threw a hairspray lid at me when I was 12. I was in the bathroom alone. The hairspray lid was on the tub and it hit me on the back. I was standing up which means that the hairspray lid did not FALL from anywhere. If it wasn't a ghost, I don't know what it could have been. It could have been a fast moving alien or something I suppose. Or a strange isolated gust of wind that originated in the bathroom.

----------


## The Atheist

> seriously? that's your response to "How do you quantify that?". Your response is almost as good as saying "because I said so"?
> 1) huh?
> 2) got links?


No, I was explaining that many genuine researchers have investigated claims of paranormality. I'd hoped people would research it themselves.

However, links I have, in spades.

I find the best place to start is with the Parapsychological Association. 

Then move on to Richard Wiseman, paranormal research and professor at Hertfordshire University in UK.

Another superb reference site is Susan Blackmore, former psychic herself, now a paranormal & psychological researcher and visiting lecturer at Uni of West England. 

Then the world's largest and best resource on failures of paranormality, James Randi, http://www.randi.org/ who's spent over half a century debunking frauds and offering huge money challenges to any person able to display a paranormal ability.




> A ghost threw a hairspray lid at me when I was 12. I was in the bathroom alone. The hairspray lid was on the tub and it hit me on the back. I was standing up which means that the hairspray lid did not FALL from anywhere. If it wasn't a ghost, I don't know what it could have been. It could have been a fast moving alien or something I suppose. Or a strange isolated gust of wind that originated in the bathroom.


This is great - exactly the sort of thing which crops up.

There is one potential rational possibility you missed. All aerosol cans have plastic lids which "snap" on. If it isn't put on properly, it can spring off using the kinetic energy stored in the plastic, which is twisted and under pressure. When they flip off, they can travel several metres.

Not likely to be a gust of wind or alien. (Aliens never use the bathroom)

 :Biggrin:

----------


## Shalot

> This is great - exactly the sort of thing which crops up.
> 
> There is one potential rational possibility you missed. All aerosol cans have plastic lids which "snap" on. If it isn't put on properly, it can spring off using the kinetic energy stored in the plastic, which is twisted and under pressure. When they flip off, they can travel several metres.
> 
> Not likely to be a gust of wind or alien. (Aliens never use the bathroom)


That's a good theory except that it wasn't aerosol. It was Rave super hold in the pump bottle and the lid wasn't on the bottle. it was on the tub. And a curious alien who is observing earthlings might hang out in the john just to see what us humans are up to. It could happen.  :Biggrin:

----------


## papayahed

> No, I was explaining that many genuine researchers have investigated claims of paranormality. I'd hoped people would research it themselves.
> 
> However, links I have, in spades.
> 
> I find the best place to start is with the Parapsychological Association. 
> 
> Then move on to Richard Wiseman, paranormal research and professor at Hertfordshire University in UK.
> 
> Another superb reference site is Susan Blackmore, former psychic herself, now a paranormal & psychological researcher and visiting lecturer at Uni of West England. 
> ...


Your links don't really help all that much, it's all pretty vague with tons of links to books or other websites.

----------


## mazHur

> Your links don't really help all that much, it's all pretty vague with tons of links to books or other websites.


I challenge anybody to explain why the pigeon almost died upon touching??
Why were cat and dog scared and won't come near the dying pigeon? 
Why that happened??

I am not sure but I can try that again,,,,with someone haunted!

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## Poetess

I chose "_I'm open-minded on the subject_ as to help myself try to ignore The Paranormal, while I do believe in this.


I experience the paranormal on a daily basis, and I don`t know what to call it. It is a long story that i`m not going to bore anyone with it. But I would gladly like to share my over 11 year-old experience of it.

Apart from my experience, I have seen videos of ghosts, and a friend of mine was investigating about lol.. Well so yes, I do believe in the Paranormal.

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## The Atheist

> Your links don't really help all that much, it's all pretty vague with tons of links to books or other websites.


That's because there have been millions of claims of paranormality/supernatural. You're not going to get a one-page answer to the investigations of claims.

I guarantee you that if you follow the information contained in those sites and their links, all of your questions will be answered. Those people - even the parapsychology ones - are university funded researchers with worldwide recognition as leaders in the fields of paranormality and human psychology research. (Except for James Randi - he's a magician who's spent his life investigating claims)




> That's a good theory except that it wasn't aerosol. It was Rave super hold in the pump bottle and the lid wasn't on the bottle. it was on the tub. And a curious alien who is observing earthlings might hang out in the john just to see what us humans are up to. It could happen.


Well, I'd be fairly sure there's a rational answer in there. Without seeing the site, products and circumstances, I wouldn't know, but I used the plastic cap as an example because I know that sort of thing has happened in the past. Like pictures "jumping" off walls because something has strecthed over time.

Anything _could_ happen, it's just how likely it is.

 :Smile:

----------


## papayahed

> That's because there have been millions of claims of paranormality/supernatural. You're not going to get a one-page answer to the investigations of claims.
> 
> I guarantee you that if you follow the information contained in those sites and their links, all of your questions will be answered. Those people - even the parapsychology ones - are university funded researchers with worldwide recognition as leaders in the fields of paranormality and human psychology research. (Except for James Randi - he's a magician who's spent his life investigating claims)


That's the point, what I've seen from those links don't have any hard evidence that would propel me to read further.

The Richard Wiseman link has two paranormal studies listed. The results I've quoted below :

Hampton Court:




> Results revealed that:
> 
> - people consistently experienced unusual sensations in certain locations
> 
> - people who believed in the existence of ghosts reported more experiences than disbelievers
> 
> - *some* of these experiences were caused by natural phenomena, such as subtle draughts and changes in air temperature. 
> 
> - there was some tentative evidence linking the locations in which participants reported their experiences with certain types of geomagnetic activity.


The Vaults:




> Results revealed that:
> 
> - people who believed in ghosts reported more experiences than disbelievers.
> 
> - participants consistently reported unusual sensations in the haunted vaults.
> 
> - there were *some* correlations between the number of experiences reported in each cell and certain environmental attributes, such as air movement and the visual appearance of the vaults.


Then it goes on to say that there are two photos that contained curious anomalies which can't be explained and asking if anybody can help.


If I wanted to convince somebody I'd throw in a few statistics. "Some" is not that quantifiable.

Now if I'm suppossed to be convinced that all paranormal activity has been shown to have logical explanations then perhaps you should leave this link out.

----------


## mazHur

> (Except for James Randi - he's a magician who's spent his life investigating claims)


what is your view of magic??

----------


## Pensive

If you mean 'me' by ghost/paranormal, sure. But if you mean to go by the usual definition of ghosts/magic and all that stuff, then no, I neither believe nor disbelieve in them.

----------


## Shalot

> Well, I'd be fairly sure there's a rational answer in there. Without seeing the site, products and circumstances, I wouldn't know, but I used the plastic cap as an example because I know that sort of thing has happened in the past. Like pictures "jumping" off walls because something has strecthed over time.
> 
> Anything _could_ happen, it's just how likely it is.


I already gave you a rational explanation - a ghost was trying to get my attention and threw it at me.

----------


## Scheherazade

> I already gave you a rational explanation - a ghost was trying to get my attention and threw it at me.


Can't help wondering why the ghost especially chose a plastic cap to get your attention... There must be a significance to that, surely? Maybe the brand name or maybe the colour? Or even maybe the person the can belongs to?

Oh, this is surely case for Scherlock!  :Biggrin:

----------


## The Atheist

> what is your view of magic??


One of the best forms of entertainment ever! Thank you Harry Houdini, the father of modern magic. 

Just to sidetrack onto magic - which is based on illusion and trickery, no "magic" - it was actually Houdini who got me started on researching paranormality. (No, I'm not that old!) I'd been fascinated by films on Houdini as a kid and read about him, which obviously included his firm belief that the supernatural was a fraud.

Do you ever wonder why professional magicians are so vehemently anti-paranormality?

Harry Houdini, Penn Jillette, James Randi, Chris Angel, Jon Zealando, Banachek; the list just goes on and on. Almost without exception, professional magicians don't just disbelieve the paranormal, they actively challenge it constantly.

Funny how all those people who admit their magic is illusory have such disdain for charlatans.





> Now if I'm suppossed to be convinced that all paranormal activity has been shown to have logical explanations then perhaps you should leave this link out.


Like I said, that's the place to start - you'd need to read his books as well. A good one with Wiseman is to Google his name - you'll find links to the meta-analysis Ganzfeld which is where the scientific research is.

I repeat, this is not something that can be explained in five minutes. The James Randi site alone would take months to go through all of the information there. While Randi's no scientist, there are thousands of links to scientific articles.

----------


## mazHur

i still havn't had any reply from the opponents of 'supernatural' on as to the calamity befalling the  pigeon on touching! Well, that's no magic, no trick. All was extempore and is substantiated by speaking evidence.

As for professional 'magicians', they are adepts and tricksters. 
Remember Disney Show, 
The Hand is faster than the Eye!
It surely is!
but herre we are talking about paranormal or unusual experiences witnessed by someone and supported by solid evidence!

----------


## The Atheist

> i still havn't had any reply from the opponents of 'supernatural' on as to the calamity befalling the pigeon on touching! Well, that's no magic, no trick. All was extempore and is substantiated by speaking evidence.





> I am witness to a paranormal scene
> 
> Wild healthy and active pigeons loosely held in hand when released were not able to take off for considerable time,,,,some took upto one hour, others more,and some could only flit,,very few could take a straight dive into the sky,,,and the one that was first 'touched' couldn't even move! Instead, his eyes bulged out, red as fire, he trembled and his neck elongated to double its length so I could count every digit of his vertebrae, his feathers fluffed, the shine of his feathers dulled down to a deadly fade! I shoes him, shouted , made noise but nothing would make him budge, He was just dying!
> 
> 
> It was horrible. All this happened in the presence of 6 other people in my house! I picked up the dying pigeon and gently placed him in the open so that he could get away. But ot my amazement he just couldnt move! My staff and I stood afar watching as to what happened next but the weird bird won't move from its place! Then suddently a cat then a dog tried to approach him but to our amazement they turned back after taking a few steps ahead and went their way without coming near the bird! The place where the bird 'stood' was an open field ,,,,,,with no other people or noise there! this happened about 12 years ago!
> 
> How would my friends here explain this? Atleast i can't figure out what happened to the bird and why the bird could'nt fly,,,why it began to die??


Sounds very much like the birds had been poisoned. That would go with the reaction of dogs & cats as well.

Maybe Shalot's alien/ghost was tired of throwing plastic lids and decided to kill some pigeons?

----------


## mazHur

> Sounds very much like the birds had been poisoned. That would go with the reaction of dogs & cats as well.
> 
> Maybe Shalot's alien/ghost was tired of throwing plastic lids and decided to kill some pigeons?


No. I'm telling you the truth. I, along with 3 other men, rode to the bird market and bought 4 very healthy ,smart and wild pigeons myself. The bird seller lightly tied their feet with jute string and put them in a paper bag so that I could carry them home. Within 15 minutes I reached my house., took out a pigeon and told my wife to hold it so that I could undo the string. I had hardly undid the knot that my wife screamed, ''hey, look what's going on with the pigeon'! My other friends also saw all this happening. I told my wife not to hold the pigeon tightly at which she opened her fist and said, ''I havnt held him tight, look!" Oh, the pigeon lay on her palm unable to move,,just like a dead mouse! Finding this i told my wife to put the pigeon on the ground which she did. To the horror of all present, the pigeon 'puffed' up ist feathers, all shine having gone, he was having convulsions,his neck started elongating and i could even count his neck vertebrae, his eyes were swollen red like burning coal and protruding; he was unable to move! Sighting this no one dare touch the mysterious pigeon so i had to request my wife to pick it up and gently 'place' it outdoors. She did ,,all of us accompanied her. then we hid near out gate and watched what happened next. The haunted pigeon did not take a step here or there, just lay in the open where he was put. I saw a dog then a cat advancing towards him but suddenly both of them turned back and fled!
We waited to see what went on with the haunted pigeon until darkness began to fall. He stayed there like the' king of the dead,' still convulsing and motionless! 
Next morning I went there to have a look at him but he was gone! Gone but where?? Why it took him so long to ''go'' wherever his final destination was?? Why a pye dog and a cat won't come near him?

After observing the fate of the first pigeon, i tried the experiment with the other 3 pigeons. The second one did not die but could fly when released, showing that he was affected by some unknown spell but not as much as the first pigeon. The third bird showed less degree of affection while the 
fourth one when released just took a straight dive into the sky and was gone!

Again, I repeated this experiment at a friend's house in another city,,,the pigeons which he gave me could not fly but just flitted and sat for hours on a branch or wall, however none of them died or had the same deadly condition which the first bird manifested.


I still cant figure out why this happened or can even happen if I tried it again! No magic, boy!

----------


## The Atheist

> No. I'm telling you the truth.


I'm sure you are.

The bad news is that as any court of law in the world will show you, unsupported anecdotes form only very weak evidence. What's to investigate? We have your word alone, which I'm not going to question.

If you had thought a real paranormal event had occurred, why didn't you keep the bird/s and bag and take the birds to a vet immediately? There will be any number of quite rational reasons why the whole thing may have happened, but without anything concrete, it becomes one of millions of unexplained stories.

----------


## mazHur

> I'm sure you are.
> 
> The bad news is that as any court of law in the world will show you, unsupported anecdotes form only very weak evidence. What's to investigate? We have your word alone, which I'm not going to question.
> 
> If you had thought a real paranormal event had occurred, why didn't you keep the bird/s and bag and take the birds to a vet immediately? There will be any number of quite rational reasons why the whole thing may have happened, but without anything concrete, it becomes one of millions of unexplained stories.


so, you agree that 'unexplainable' things do happen...does anyone on the links provided by you ever suggest a 'sscientific reason' for such things?

Here in Pakistan, human life is so cheap that who the heck is going to care for the poor birds! 

the most disturbing thing is that even today if I try the experiment the bird may suffer! Could you please send a Vet or advise the guys at Guiness to witness the scene?

----------


## The Atheist

> so, you agree that 'unexplainable' things do happen...does anyone on the links provided by you ever suggest a 'sscientific reason' for such things?


No, I don't agree that unexplainable things happen - I said lots of things remain unexplained, as will your pigeons, since the evidence is only your word.




> Here in Pakistan, human life is so cheap that who the heck is going to care for the poor birds!


I suspect that's being a little disingenuous, since there are plenty of vets in Pakistan, with a long-established society, and veterinary universities. 




> the most disturbing thing is that even today if I try the experiment the bird may suffer! Could you please send a Vet or advise the guys at Guiness to witness the scene?


Well, if you can still do it, then it's your ticket to fame and fortune! At last count, there is over $US5,000,000 available to anyone able to display a genuine paranrmal ability.

----------


## mazHur

> No, I don't agree that unexplainable things happen - I said lots of things remain unexplained, as will your pigeons, since the evidence is only your word.
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that's being a little disingenuous, since there are plenty of vets in Pakistan, with a long-established society, and veterinary universities. 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if you can still do it, then it's your ticket to fame and fortune! At last count, there is over $US5,000,000 available to anyone able to display a genuine paranrmal ability.



I didn't say there are no Vets in Pakistan, I just said who cares for life here,,,and that too of a bird! The Vets are not that serious folks 
here to look at such matters with awe and sincerity

I can still perform the 'feat' but don't feel like 'harming' the innocent birds for the sake of money. I'm greatly intrigued and want to discover as to why pigeons suffered?

thanks goodness I didnt have that capability with regard to humans otherwise I would be the most ''dreaded person' in the world!!
But, I hate getting Midas' ears for touching somelthing for money! :Wink:

----------


## papayahed

> Like I said, that's the place to start - you'd need to read his books as well. A good one with Wiseman is to Google his name - you'll find links to the meta-analysis Ganzfeld which is where the scientific research is.
> 
> I repeat, this is not something that can be explained in five minutes. The James Randi site alone would take months to go through all of the information there. While Randi's no scientist, there are thousands of links to scientific articles.


Nothing on wisemans website has even remotely convinced me that I should follow the links. As I mentioned previously the research he posted was wildly inconclusive and there was no information to back anything up. I have no reason to believe that his links are anything but the same.

----------


## mazHur

There are 2 very nice works by Wilson Colins,,,1. the Occult and 2. the Mysteries

I would recommend friends here going through them

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## Shalot

> Can't help wondering why the ghost especially chose a plastic cap to get your attention... There must be a significance to that, surely? Maybe the brand name or maybe the colour? Or even maybe the person the can belongs to?
> 
> Oh, this is surely case for Scherlock!


I think it was a friendly old ghost - maybe a dead relative -- who was trying to tell me to stop it with the mall bangs and the Rave hairspray.  :FRlol:

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## Idril

I tend to be fairly skeptical of ghosts and paranormal activity but yet at the same time, I would never say absolutely they don't exist, more like it's just something I choose not to deal with.  :FRlol:  However, I did have a weird experience once when I was younger. I was in Boston, being a nanny, away from my family for the first time and I had a...something...a dream I suppose of my Grandmother standing at the foot of my bed, just looking at me, it was a comforting feeling, like I was being watched over and in the morning I got a call that she had passed away during the night. It freaked me out a little bit but at the same time, I felt that I had had the chance to say goodbye even though I was hundreds of miles away.

----------


## mazHur

*Here is another weird story I picked up from the web,,,enough to scare your socks off! Enjoy reading it!

A man is hitchhiking along the side of the road in the middle of nowhere on a very dark and very stormy night. It's pitch black, and the rain is so heavy and driving so hard that he can see only a few feet ahead of him. Suddenly he sees a car come toward him and stop.

Without thinking about it, the fellow gets in the car and closes the door -- only to realize that nobody is behind the wheel. The car starts slowly and picks up a little speed. The guy looks at the road and sees a curve coming his way.

Scared, he starts praying, begging for his life. Then, just before the car gets to the curve, a hand appears through the window and moves the wheel.

The fellow is paralyzed in terror, and as the car keeps moving he watches how the hand appears just before every curve.

Finally, he gathers the strength to open the door and leap from the car. He runs to the nearest town, and wet and in shock, he goes into a bar. He orders two shots of tequila, and as he's downing them he starts telling everybody about the horrible experience he's just gone through.

Everyone in the little bar is silent, and they realize the man is still terrified and crying, not drunk.

About half an hour later, two other men enter the bar, and as they look around, one says to the other, "Hey, look, Fred! That's the guy who climbed into the car while we were pushing!"* :Wink:  :Crash:

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## Niamh

A friend of mine posted this like else where and i thought i'd post it here and see what people thought.  :Smile: 


http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/article.as...entid=15422134


This one gives you a better look at the photo. Creepy.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/eu...otland.ghosts/

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## Niamh

I've had a few spooky experiences.
Sensation of someone sitting on the end of a bed i was sleeping on in a friends house. Same house i ended up sleeping on the couch because i had the wits scared out of me. One night, i heard the sound of someone coming down the stairs and i turned and looked at the door and a white hazy figure suddenly drifted through the door and started towards me. well i jumped out of my skin!
When i lived in a gate house in Ravensdale, Dundalk Co.Louth, i was the only person in the house one evening. I was sitting in what was our living room, when i heard the noise of the door from the kitchen to the room open (it was shut when i turned my head) and close and the sound of someone walking across the room right in front of me and the going out by the side door. There have been sitings of an old woman knitting in a chair in that room. It was once part of a vestry.
When i lived in Monaghan, myself and my friend tracy were in the house we were renting. She was in the shower and I was in my room, when i heard the sound of a man laugh from the hall outside my door.
When i lived in Mullengar, the house i lived in freaked me out so much i went to bed with a butcher knife. (no Joke!) For a while there were three of us living in the house, and the two swedish girls had rooms upstairs. Mine was down stairs by the kitchen (renovated garage). They left after a few weeks. They really wanted sleep. I was left in the house on my own for the last two weeks of the dig, constantly begging people from the site to stay in the house some night so i wasnt alone. Every night, one of the bedroom doors upstairs would open and close. (may i point out that this was the only room in the house we couldnt get into because it was locked. The three of us tried) There would be bangings and footsteps for hours.
When i was out one night for a site christmas party in the Dublin Brewing Company, i had a hand placed on my shoulder. There was no hand there and the only thing behind me as a pot belly stove.
When i was in Edinburgh a few years back, i visited Mary Kings Close. I was at the back of the group and someone hummed into my right ear. There was no one beside or behind me. I was there last year again and both myself and my friend heard a childs cry and i felt something take a hold of my jeans leg at knee height.
I've strange experiences in the house i'm sharing with my best friend. i was cooking dinner and i turned around and thought there was a black shadow of a man standing behind me. My heart was pounding in my throat it jumped so much. I've heard strange things in this house but this was the first time anything happened like that. my best friend saw a similar shadow at the top of the stairs another time and it scared the living daylights out of her. We leave the landing light on now...we have an open plan living/ kitchen area and I was sitting in a chair at one end in the livingroom and a wine glass tipped over on its own in the kitchen. 
even spookier was while i was lying in bed one night i could hear my exercise ball in the corner being bounced.
My housemate said she could hear noises in my room while i was away in Canada like a door repeatedly opening and banging. I've heard the same thing happen to her bedroom door and only last week i closed the bathroom door over, but didnt shut it, walked into my bedroom and jumped at the sound of it slamming shut.
I also experience strange smells sometimes.

On the recent paranormal investigation i went on in Wales both myself and my friend got our hats pulled up from our heads. Then there is that picture...



Believe these or not, i'd never execpt people to believe stuff because i do. but these are genuine experiences.  :Smile:  not everything can be explained by science!  :Smile:

----------


## Nikhar

Once there were two ghosts in a distant forlorn forest. Suddenly, there were a rustle of leaves. One of the ghosts turned back and thought he saw something.

He then said to his buddy, 'Could that be a human?'

'Shut up dumbass! We all know that there is nothing called humans!'

 :Biggrin:   :Tongue:

----------


## Niamh

do you mean no such thing as humans?  :Tongue:

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## Nikhar

> do you mean no such thing as humans?


That is what the ghosts think...  :Nod:  :Nod:  Just like we don't believe in them, they don't believe in us...

 :Willy Nilly:  :Willy Nilly:  (I'm just using this emoticon coz I havent used it before and its rather cute.)


Edit:- Oh wait...Were you correcting me gramatically? :Blush:

----------


## BienvenuJDC

> do you mean no such thing as humans?





> That is what the ghosts think...  Just like we don't believe in them, they don't believe in us...
> 
>  (I'm just using this emoticon coz I havent used it before and its rather cute.)
> 
> 
> Edit:- Oh wait...Were you correcting me gramatically?


Sounds like the movie called _The Others_.

----------


## Madhuri

> I've had a few spooky experiences.
> Sensation of someone sitting on the end of a bed i was sleeping on in a friends house. Same house i ended up sleeping on the couch because i had the wits scared out of me. One night, i heard the sound of someone coming down the stairs and i turned and looked at the door and a white hazy figure suddenly drifted through the door and started towards me. well i jumped out of my skin!
> When i lived in a gate house in Ravensdale, Dundalk Co.Louth, i was the only person in the house one evening. I was sitting in what was out living room, when i heard the noise of the door from the kitchen to the room open (i was shut when i turned my head) and close and the sound of someone walking across the room right in front of me and the going out by the side door. There have been sitings of an old woman knitting in a chair in that room. It was once part of a vestry.
> When i lived in Monaghan, myself and my friend tracy were in the house we were renting. She was in the shower and was in my room, when i heard the sound of a man laugh from the hall outside my door.
> When i lived in Mullengar, the house i lived in freaked me out so much i went to bed with a butcher knife. (no Joke!) For a while there were three of us living in the house, and the two swedish girls had rooms upstairs. Mine was down stairs by the kitchen (renovated garage). They left after a few weeks. They really wanted sleep. I was left in the house on my own for the last two weeks of the dig, constantly begging people from the site to stay in the house some night so i wasnt alone. Every night, one of the bedroom doors upstairs would open and close. (may i point out that this was the only room in the house we couldnt get into because it was locked. The three of us tried) There would be bangings and footsteps for hours.
> When i was out one night for a site christmas party in the Dublin Brewing Company, i had a hand placed on my shoulder. There was no hand there and the only thing behind me as a pot belly stove.
> When i was in Edinburgh a few years back, i visited Mary Kings Close. I was at the back of the group and someone hummed into my right ear. There was no one beside or behind me. I was there last year again and both myself and my friend heard a childs cry and i felt something take a hold of my jeans leg at knee height.
> I've strange experiences in the house i'm sharing with my best friend. i was cooking dinner and i turned around and thought there was a black shadow of a man standing behind me. My heart was pounding in my throat it jumped so much. I've heard strange things in this house but this was the first time anything happened like that. my best friend saw a similar shadow at the top of the stairs another time and it scared the living daylights out of her. We leave the landing light on now...we have an open plan living/ kitchen area and I was sitting in a chair at one end in the livingroom and a wine glass tipped over on its own in the kitchen. 
> even spookier was while i was lying in bed one night i could hear my exercise ball in the corner being bounced.
> ...


 :Shocked:   :Eek2:   :Cold:  After reading this, I will have another sleepless night...it's 10:45 in the night here and I live alone...  :Frown:

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## Niamh

the others is a fantastic movie! I love it!

Oops! Sorry Maddie!

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## Emil Miller

I'm a rationalist and never accepted the paranormal either in the form of ghosts or any other strange phenomenon until something happened to me for which there is no rational explanation. I won't reveal what it was because it was something very personal to me but all I will say is that what was once a certainty as regards the paranormal no longer remains so.

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## Jay

Niamh, not to sound like a total *beep* but what's on the picture you posted that's paranormal? I mean, other than bits of dust and a couple of people I can't find anything (unless there's someone in the picture that wasn't there when the picture was taken but nobody seems out of place  :Wink:  )
Just asking because I feel silly for not getting it :s
Btw, actually enjoyed your scary experiences but that's most likely because of my guilty pleasure marathons of Ghost Hunters  :Wink:  (ahem, anybody else wanna 'fess up to following the show?  :Tongue: )

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## papayahed

> Just asking because I feel silly for not getting it :s
> Btw, actually enjoyed your scary experiences but that's most likely because of my guilty pleasure marathons of Ghost Hunters  (ahem, anybody else wanna 'fess up to following the show? )


 :Nod: Wednesday nights...

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## Niamh

oh sorry i didnt post the other picture. if you go to the photoalbum thread i posted the zoomed in image. there is a face in the picture that doesnt belong to anyone in the group staring right at the camera beside me.  :Smile:

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## Jay

Oh, ok, thanks  :Smile: , thought that was just someone out of the light. Funny how the face is 'dark', ie almost the same colour as the guy beside it. Guess nobody seen anything at the time the picture was taken? It looks dark in there.

You say recent paranormal investigation... where were you investigating? Any luck other than the yellow-eyed demon lady? (ok, I DID try not to make a Supernatural reference but I just couldn't help it, too tempting  :Tongue: , please ignore unless you get my reference  :Smile:  )

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## Niamh

I did an investigation of Pembrey Woods and War Bunkers in South Wales.  :Smile:  It was quite dark but there was some natural moon light in the room. No one saw the face at the time, but i had seem a face similar to it at one point before hand (and it was just the head) coming straight at me from under the really tall guy in blacks chin. I'd never been so terrified in my life. And thats the god honest truth. Hands flew to my face because it scared the wits out of me. I'll never forget it. When i saw that photo i paled and told everyone what i'd seen. they had seem my hands fly to my face and me cry "Oh my god!" but they thought it was because i was excited about winning the T-Shirt in our auction for charity and they thought it was weird i'd done it. Said it made so much more sense when they found out what i'd seem. It was the first time i'd seen something that wasnt a white glow of a figure or a black shadow. I can still see the image of the face coming straight for me when i close my eyes.

I'm hopefully going to do something in Derby in beginning of June!  :Smile:

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## Babbalanja

> there is a face in the picture that doesnt belong to anyone in the group staring right at the camera beside me.


 :Rolleyes5:

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## DanielBenoit

I don't believe in paranormal stuff or am I entirely interested in it (watching unscary episodes of GhostHunters pretty much turned me off), but I am opened minded to other peoples beliefs and always love hearing about strange things, even if I can't explain them or am even skeptical towards them.

Just think of the film My Dinner with Andre, it doesn't expect you to believe much of what Andre says, but it sure creates a damn interesting conversation. Too much rationalism takes away the joys and spontaneity of the human imagination. Rigidness is a metaphysical sin.

I really enjoyed reading about your experiences Niamh  :Smile: , you should really share them with us more often. . . unless you already have *runs to Niamh's blog*

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## Niamh

Hahaha, i dont think i've ever written anything in my blog about the paranormal... unless i mentioned the investigation but i dont think i did.

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## JuniperWoolf

> I don't believe in paranormal stuff or am I entirely interested in it (watching unscary episodes of GhostHunters pretty much turned me off), but I am opened minded to other peoples beliefs and always love hearing about strange things, even if I can't explain them or am even skeptical towards them.
> 
> Just think of the film My Dinner with Andre, it doesn't expect you to believe much of what Andre says, but it sure creates a damn interesting conversation. Too much rationalism takes away the joys and spontaneity of the human imagination. Rigidness is a metaphysical sin.


That is an excellent point.

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## blazeofglory

In fact I find supernatural phenomena highly engaging to me. It is hard to beleive them, but my question is the world is still a great mystery, and all that science has achieved is very little of it, and the great part of it still remains veiled from us.

Logically going everything, every event has a cause. Our presence here too has a cause. Our parents had desired for sex and the upshot is our existence in point of fact. What was the cause that led to copulation, maybe an external stimulus. What caused the stimulus and this goes on unending.

Then what is the supernatural? Is there a being? what causes everything in the world? 

Mysteries do exist but it is really hard to synchronize with phenomena

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## Babbalanja

> Too much rationalism takes away the joys and spontaneity of the human imagination. Rigidness is a metaphysical sin.


There's a responsible way to indulge our thirst for fantasy, and that's through poetry, music, and fiction. Let's follow the human imagination down the path of artistic invention, not the deep dark rabbit hole of numbnuttery.

Magical thinking isn't an admirable trait in adults. Once you're past a certain age, credulity is the real metaphysical sin.

Regards,

Istvan

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## Niamh

There is nothing fantastical or fictional about experiencing real paranormal activity.

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## Revolte

> There is nothing fantastical or fictional about experiencing real paranormal activity.


I agree with that 100 percent. When all is said and done though, I don't think most people will believe in the paranormal if they dont experience it first hand, and if they do believe in it just for the sake of believing in it, they tend to believe false ideas. Like every haunting being demonic. I've delt with the paranormal starting when I was a child up until now and though there have been a few, more then startling, experiences, for the most part all was calm and far from what most people would expect from spiritual activity.

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## Babbalanja

> There is nothing fantastical or fictional about experiencing real paranormal activity.


I'd say there's nothing paranormal about it either. 

Regards,

Istvan

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## Niamh

> I agree with that 100 percent. When all is said and done though, I don't think most people will believe in the paranormal if they dont experience it first hand, and if they do believe in it just for the sake of believing in it, they tend to believe false ideas. Like every haunting being demonic. I've delt with the paranormal starting when I was a child up until now and though there have been a few, more then startling, experiences, for the most part all was calm and far from what most people would expect from spiritual activity.


Exactly.  :Smile:  Somethings, especially in the case of the paranormal, need to be seen to be believed. I know many people who were very sceptical about the paranormal until they experienced things even they couldnt explain via science.




> I'd say there's nothing paranormal about it either. 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Istvan


Well you are intitled to your opinion.

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## Babbalanja

> Somethings, especially in the case of the paranormal, need to be seen to be believed. I know many people who were very sceptical about the paranormal until they experienced things even they couldnt explain via science.


But the point is you're not _explaining_ them simply by referring to them as paranormal either. Telling ghost stories and celebrating weird sensations isn't expanding our knowledge about the universe, it's just fetishizing the unknown.

Regards,

Istvan

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## soundofmusic

I never believed in such things; then I had a bad car accident in '93...it was terrible, I was always seeing things stepping in front of the car, running over disappearing people...I didn't dare tell the neurologist and the sensation disappeared completely after 10 years. 

Then, I began to do hospice nursing at night. I would sit in a dark room in the wee hours of the morning and just as the patients would die, I would see a bright light over them...I asked my workmates if they experienced this also; and many agreed they did...I decided to switch to days and have seen nothing in the rooms since. 

After my husband died, I began to see him at the foot of my bed every night. (He was retired from the military and was to be cremated immediately; but the services would take place a few weeks later at the national cemetary with several other vets) Each night, his apparition became more bloated and purple. I was so disturbed that after a few days I called the funeral home. His body had been lost on its way to the crematory. For two weeks, his body was unidentified and for two weeks he showed at the end of my bed; each night more horrifying than the previous. Once they found him and he was with his friends, he never again came to me.

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## DanielBenoit

> There's a responsible way to indulge our thirst for fantasy, and that's through poetry, music, and fiction. Let's follow the human imagination down the path of artistic invention, not the deep dark rabbit hole of numbnuttery.
> 
> Magical thinking isn't an admirable trait in adults. Once you're past a certain age, credulity is the real metaphysical sin.


Well I'd prefer talking to William Blake over Richard Dawkins any day.

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## Babbalanja

> Well I'd prefer talking to William Blake over Richard Dawkins any day.


 :Rolleyes5: 

Um, right, Blake would qualify as a visionary poet, the type of artist I praised in that post you quoted. Can you actually see the words I post here, Daniel?

And I assume your view of Dawkins is based on careful reading of his most fascinating work, like _Unweaving the Rainbow_, and isn't just a bias developed from watching youtube videos and reading hatchet jobs from wacko websites. Am I right?

Regards,

Istvan

----------


## soundofmusic

> There's a responsible way to indulge our thirst for fantasy, and that's through poetry, music, and fiction. Let's follow the human imagination down the path of artistic invention, not the deep dark rabbit hole of numbnuttery.
> 
> Magical thinking isn't an admirable trait in adults. Once you're past a certain age, credulity is the real metaphysical sin.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Istvan


It seems that while you are fulfilling your thirst for fantasy in a "safe and crowd pleasing" manner; the government is spending millions of dollars funding paranormal studies. 
Perhaps you should take a look outside your box and accept those of us who are not too afraid to consider that there may be something on our planet that is greater than ourselves.

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## JuniperWoolf

> the government is spending millions of dollars funding paranormal studies.


Really? That's... depressing.

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## Babbalanja

> Perhaps you should take a look outside your box and accept those of us who are not too afraid to consider that there may be something on our planet that is greater than ourselves.


Where did I ever say I don't accept you? I'm simply humble enough to realize that there are many things that compromise our objectivity when we start defining things as paranormal: grief, wishful thinking, and plain old thrill-seeking.

I'm not going to apologize for being too staggered by what we already know about our universe to start making weird claims about the unknown.

Regards,

Istvan

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## soundofmusic

> Where did I ever say I don't accept you? I'm simply humble enough to realize that there are many things that compromise our objectivity when we start defining things as paranormal: grief, wishful thinking, and plain old thrill-seeking.
> 
> I'm not going to apologize for being too staggered by what we already know about our universe to start making weird claims about the unknown.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Istvan


Thank you for clarifying, Babbalanja (I really like that name; how'd you come up with it?) Anyway, I think the term "magical thinking" which is not a term that the mental health community generally pairs with minor depressive disorders, led me to the assumption that you were not accepting of others with different beliefs...and then the adjectives like wierd to describe peoples ideas. 
I do appreciate, however, your ideas of a universe totally lacking in any supernatural influence; but of course, even in our time, while many may not believe in ghosts, a majority believes in a god, angels and other supernatural entities.

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## soundofmusic

> Then, I began to do hospice nursing at night. I would sit in a dark room in the wee hours of the morning and just as the patients would die, I would see a bright light over them...I asked my workmates if they experienced this also; and many agreed they did...I decided to switch to days and have seen nothing in the rooms since. 
> 
> After my husband died, I began to see him at the foot of my bed every night. (He was retired from the military and was to be cremated immediately; but the services would take place a few weeks later at the national cemetary with several other vets) Each night, his apparition became more bloated and purple. I was so disturbed that after a few days I called the funeral home. His body had been lost on its way to the crematory. For two weeks, his body was unidentified and for two weeks he showed at the end of my bed; each night more horrifying than the previous. Once they found him and he was with his friends, he never again came to me.


I was thinking of what Babbs had said; and it occurred to me that as I, personally, do not believe in heaven or hell, there was no reason to "imagine" that I saw a bright light in the darkness when someone died.

Also, I had no way of knowing; before the appearance, that my husbands body had been lost. (I have never known anyone to get "lost" between the hospital and crematorium) And, if out of grief, I would have desired a visit from him; I would have envisioned him either as I had last seen him before death or as I would hope, a much younger, healthier version of my husband.

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## DanielBenoit

> Um, right, Blake would qualify as a visionary poet, the type of artist I praised in that post you quoted. Can you actually see the words I post here, Daniel?


No I was referring to Blake's well-known idiosyncratic piety and "visions". Wordsworth best expresses my sentiments when he said this: "There was no doubt that this poor man was mad, but there is something in the madness of this man which interests me more than the sanity of Lord Byron and Walter Scott."

Frankly I would be more engaged in a conversation with a guy who thought that he was seeing angels and demons all around than say a guy like Dawkins (or your typical fundamentalist preacher as well) whose view of the world I find to be lifeless and empty. This is not to say that Dawkin's work is empty and dull, but whenever he makes an attempt at philosophical discourse, it is a little pitiful.




> And I assume your view of Dawkins is based on careful reading of his most fascinating work, like _Unweaving the Rainbow_, and isn't just a bias developed from watching youtube videos and reading hatchet jobs from wacko websites. Am I right?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Istvan


You know I don't know why you have to assume that everyone who disagrees with you is either uninformed or under some delusion. Yes I have in fact read much of Dawkin's work and was even an admirer of him at one point. A book like The Selfish Gene is popular science writing at its best, a book where Dawkin's indulges in ideological dogmatism like The God Delusion. I'm not criticizing Dawkin's rhetoric in-so-much as I am criticizing his dogmatizing of atheism and of starting a movement which is about just as close-minded and dogmatic as the people they themselves criticize (when I refer to 'movemnt' I refer to Dawkins himself as well).

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## Babbalanja

> This is not to say that Dawkin's work is empty and dull, but whenever he makes an attempt at philosophical discourse, it is a little pitiful.


I guess we disagree there. I think his thesis in _Unweaving the Rainbow_ is at least an interesting defense of the materialist perspective. In terms of the subject of this thread, Dawkins would argue that people who thirst after the _supernatural_ and the _paranormal_ aren't giving the universe proper credit for its staggering wonders. The naturalistic perspective regards the marvels of the universe much more honestly than we do when we make up things in our ignorance.

Why couldn't these ghost-hunters find fascination in the wonders of astronomy, or the miraculous world of microbiology? Is it too much to ask that people get inspiration from the amazing things we know about the world we live in, instead of playing make-believe about some fantasy world of ghosts and spirits?

Regards,

Istvan

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## DanielBenoit

> I guess we disagree there. I think his thesis in _Unweaving the Rainbow_ is at least an interesting defense of the materialist perspective. In terms of the subject of this thread, Dawkins would argue that people who thirst after the _supernatural_ and the _paranormal_ aren't giving the universe proper credit for its staggering wonders. The naturalistic perspective regards the marvels of the universe much more honestly than we do when we make up things in our ignorance.
> 
> Why couldn't these ghost-hunters find fascination in the wonders of astronomy, or the miraculous world of microbiology? Is it too much to ask that people get inspiration from the amazing things we know about the world we live in, instead of playing make-believe about some fantasy world of ghosts and spirits?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Istvan


But what's wrong with having a passion? Just because you disagree with the it or find it ridiculous or absurd doesn't mean that everyone has to bow down to your opinion or in the case of Niamh, give up their interest in the paranormal and go to the more "virtuous" vocation of biology and whatnot. 

Actually you know what? I don't like that there are so many engineers on this website, they should all quit and become. . . .. film directors, yeah that's right! I'd like it if they did that!

Believe it or not but science can't provide all of the answers to life.

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## Babbalanja

> But what's wrong with having a passion? Just because you disagree with the it or find it ridiculous or absurd doesn't mean that everyone has to bow down to your opinion or in the case of Niamh, give up their interest in the paranormal and go to the more "virtuous" vocation of biology and whatnot.


My point wasn't that their passion was misplaced, only that they seem more interested in what we don't know than what we know. Are they really searching for answers to these weird phenomena, or are they merely fascinated with its weirdness? Is this what empirical inquiry is truly all about?




> Actually you know what? I don't like that there are so many engineers on this website, they should all quit and become. . . .. film directors, yeah that's right! I'd like it if they did that!


Tee hee.

The difference between what I was saying and your bizarre parody of it is that I was actually taking the paranormal folks at their word that they were engaging in responsible inquiry and not just cheap thrills. If they are, they should approach the paranormal in an objective way. If not, they shouldn't expect people to respect their hobby.




> Believe it or not but science can't provide all of the answers to life.


Well, regarding phenomena in our world, Daniel, empirical evidential inquiry has done a remarkable job at explaining things that were once considered mysterious. 

And what mysteries, pray tell, has the 'woo' mindset ever explained? Did it explain how DNA is the basis of heredity? Did it explain the structure of our solar system? Did it inform us about the shared ancestry of all life on Earth?

So what answers does 'woo' provide us, Daniel?

Regards,

Istvan

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## DanielBenoit

> My point wasn't that their passion was misplaced, only that they seem more interested in what we don't know than what we know. Are they really searching for answers to these weird phenomena, or are they merely fascinated with its weirdness? Is this what empirical inquiry is truly all about?


Whatever dude, take that up with Niamh I'm not into this stuff in the first place.




> The difference between what I was saying and your bizarre parody of it is that I was actually taking the paranormal folks at their word that they were engaging in responsible inquiry and not just cheap thrills. If they are, they should approach the paranormal in an objective way. If not, they shouldn't expect people to respect their hobby.


Oh so I guess science is the only 'objective' way of figuring out things, when in fact its epistemological origins are just as subjective as anything else. More pragmatic yes, but not infinite. 




> Well, regarding phenomena in our world, Daniel, empirical evidential inquiry has done a remarkable job at explaining things that were once considered mysterious. 
> 
> And what mysteries, pray tell, has the 'woo' mindset ever explained? Did it explain how DNA is the basis of heredity? Did it explain the structure of our solar system? Did it inform us about the shared ancestry of all life on Earth?
> 
> So what answers does 'woo' provide us, Daniel?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Istvan


See this is why it's so hard to have a debate with you because you are so condescending to the opposition. First off, I don't even know what the hell you're talking about when you say 'woo' nor do I understand why you have come under the impression that I am some rabid anti-science wizard who believes in magic. Is it not possible for me to criticize aspects of science and still believe it to be a valid tool? (I cannot believe that this whole thing started with me calling-out Dawkins, which I now regret).

What I meant by what I said was that science simply cannot provide all of the answers to life's questions. Why? Because the scientific method is limited logical system. It can't establish normativity (so to hell with the questions of ethics, the Is-Ought Problem, etc.), it cannot be self-reflexive nor can it deal with its own problems, such as the limits of induction, it cannot deal with how we treat its own concepts themselves, etc.

Also, as a critique of empiricism: natural phenomena is _not_ all which concerns the world we live in because so much of what we conceive and think of are in themselves simulations and signified subjects. Science cannot explain the infinite regress between the signified and the signifier because it would undermine its very own system to do so. Scientific empiricism cannot deal with the problems of perception, of representation, of the nature of language, because to do so it would have to reflect back on its very own nature, science itself being a certain representation of nature.

The claim that reason will solve everything is a meta-narrative just like those of world religions which uses a certain logical system to look into the world and explain things the way it is seem from that window of reason.

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## Babbalanja

Daniel,

You're preaching to the choir. I understand the philosophical issues with empirical evidential inquiry. Like you, I still feel it is a valid tool for expanding our understanding. And contrary to your view of me as arrogant, I celebrate the way empirical inquiry is geared toward circumventing our human narcissism. 

The scientific method is just a process by which we model reality in a way that can be tested. The testing is the way we ensure that we're not just affirming a model of reality that validates our prejudices. It's a protection against the cognitive biases that compromise objectivity. I submit that the type of inquiry involved in paranormal investigation merely panders to our species' notoriously inflated sense of self-worth. 

Regards,

Istvan

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## Niamh

> My point wasn't that *their passion was misplaced, only that they seem more interested in what we don't know than what we know*. Are they really searching for answers to these weird phenomena, or are they merely fascinated with its weirdness? Is this what empirical inquiry is truly all about?





> Why couldn't these ghost-hunters find fascination in the wonders of astronomy, or the miraculous world of microbiology? Is it too much to ask that people get inspiration from the amazing things we know about the world we live in, instead of playing make-believe about some fantasy world of ghosts and spirits?


Thats a rather big assumption to make seeing as you know absoloutely nothing about me. I might be one of "these ghost hunters" but I previously was an Archaeologist, have studied areas of geology, anthropology, history and enviornmental studies and am still greatly passionate about them all. I'm currently back studying Heritage and Literature. I've been interested in astronomy since i was a child. I definitely would not consider my passions "misplaced".

Studying the paranormal (and my interest in parapsychology) is just another one of my interests as it is with many others due to the fact that (as i have previously cited) i have had many things occur in my life that i would consider "unexplainable" or paranormal. When i'm dealing with the paranormal or events that could be paranormal i always apply scientific reasons or logic to why certain things occur or what could have caused something to happen. If i cant find any rational reason for it or am left stumped and it appears as if it could be paranormal, then i'll accept that it could be. 

In the case of the photograph, it was taken on a digital camera and the photo was shown to the group only minutes later so an explaination of photoshopping can be discarded. As can the concept of double exposure. All the team are accounted for in the original photo so we can safely say its no one involved in the investigation. But yet the face is there.

I appriciate and respect the fact that you do not believe in these things but i'd appriciate it if you could show the same respect for the fact that i _do_ and cease accusing me of fetishizing, playing make-believe and telling ghost stories, and insulting my intelligence.
Thank you.

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## JuniperWoolf

There's one thing that always bothers me about people who report to have seen ghosts... it's that there are in many cases only two options: either they really _did_ see something, or they're lying. In a lot of these stories it would have to either be a straight-up for-realzies ghost (which I don't believe in), or someone that you know is telling a bald-faced lie. 

For example, right after that little kid from my town was killed when his grandpa ran him over (the one I blogged about), a nurse claimed that she saw the boy standing by his grandpa's bed, holding his hand and saying "I'll be okay, poppa." 

Aaaalrighty... there is really no way that this could be a mistake on the part of the nurse coupled with wishful thinking (this is no "I smelled his aftershave" or "I heard my mother's voice last night," she _knew_ the kid and claimed that she recognized him). So I'm left with one conclusion: this woman is just lying right to everyone's face. I could think of dozens of similar stories that people have told me with which I have arrived at the same conclusion: they didn't make a mistake, it's not some funny psychological glitch, either they REALLY DID see a ghost (which again, I find impossible to believe no matter how hard I try) or they're just lying. Sometimes they're lying in a very delicate situation (like claiming to have seen someone's family member in pain), so it's not like they're lying out of the goodness of their heart to relieve the suffering of someone who's grieving.

Oh, and I'm not accusing you of lying Niamh. I don't believe that you've seen ghosts, but I'm willing to accept the fact that you believe that you have. 




> In the case of the photograph, it was taken on a digital camera and the photo was shown to the group only minutes later so an explaination of photoshopping can be discarded. As can the concept of double exposure. All the team are accounted for in the original photo so we can safely say its no one involved in the investigation. But yet the face is there.


Okay, a couple of questions (because I never get to grill people who claim to have seen ghosts, on account of I don't want to offend them or burst their bubble and kill their fun). 

Where were you? Was it closed off to the rest of the public? While you were there, did you see any other people around? You're sure that everyone in your group is in the picture except for the one holding the camera?

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## Niamh

> Okay, a couple of questions (because I never get to grill people who claim to have seen ghosts, on account of I don't want to offend them or burst their bubble and kill their fun). 
> 
> Where were you? Was it closed off to the rest of the public? While you were there, did you see any other people around? You're sure that everyone in your group is in the picture except for the one holding the camera?





> 


Original photo from a couple of pages back. I'm the one in the green coat. I'm facing where that face should be and there was no one there. I can name everyone else in that photo including the photographer and the owner of the red coat that you can faintly see beside me. She was standing facing the same way. No one is missing. Not sure if you can see the back of the photo. the bunker is open. It is on both sides because i once had trains running through it. Its located close to a beach at the end of The Pembrey Estate and Woods in Wales. No residence near by. If anyone else had turned up, it would have been the park rangers or coast guard and they would have been spotted and heard before they even approached the bunker. Yet there is still a face in the photo.

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## Babbalanja

> i have had many things occur in my life that i would consider "unexplainable" or paranormal. When i'm dealing with the paranormal or events that could be paranormal i always apply scientific reasons or logic to why certain things occur or what could have caused something to happen. If i cant find any rational reason for it or am left stumped and it appears as if it could be paranormal, then i'll accept that it could be. 
> 
> In the case of the photograph, it was taken on a digital camera and the photo was shown to the group only minutes later so an explaination of photoshopping can be discarded. As can the concept of double exposure. All the team are accounted for in the original photo so we can safely say its no one involved in the investigation. But yet the face is there.


I'm not accusing you of lying about this, I'm just playing the odds. It's much easier for me to believe that the face is either someone in the group you don't recognize, or someone who was there that you don't remember, than that it's some sort of otherworldly apparition.

This is what I meant about Homo Sap's exaggerated sense of self-worth. We not only like to believe that humans go on to live strange, exciting lives after death, but we also tell ourselves that our departed ancestors have nothing better to do in the great beyond than appear to the living in weird ways. The afterlife must be pretty dull if these spirits get amusement from following us around in the dark to get their pictures taken, knocking the caps off our hair spray bottles, and pulling our hats off while we're spelunking.




> I appriciate and respect the fact that you do not believe in these things


Really? Like when you said, "Not everything can be explained by science"? Isn't that your way of saying that anyone who considers these phenomena quite explicable is kidding themselves? If you have such a strong background in empirical inquiry, why are you denigrating "science" like it's inadequate for use in paranormal investigation? What is it about these weird experiences that's so inaccessible to the scientific method?

I'm always a little amused at the way paranormal believers like to characterize skeptics as arrogant, emotionally stunted killjoys. In this thread, I've been upbraided for my _rigidity_ and _dogmatism_. It's as if expecting evidence for extraordinary claims is itself a weird fetish, and asking questions is an inexcusable affront to those who tout their supernatural experiences. 

However, I insist it's the paranormal believers who display a marked lack of humility: they have crossed the line to the invisible world, they have lifted the veil of Maya, and their momentous experiences don't deserve to be questioned.

Regards,

Istvan

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## Niamh

> Really? Like when you said, "Not everything can be explained by science"? Isn't that your way of saying that anyone who considers these phenomena quite explicable is kidding themselves?


Thats not what i was saying at all. That was merely an opinion expressed at the end of my post and in no way was i implying anything of the kind.
That wasnt aimed at you so i dont even understand why you are taking offense to it.




> If you have such a strong background in empirical inquiry, why are you denigrating "science" like it's inadequate for use in paranormal investigation? What is it about these weird experiences that's so inaccessible to the scientific method?


I'm not denigrating anything. I've already mentioned i look towards science for answers, but they are not always there, hence "science cant explain everything." Because it cant. there are still so many things out there in our existence and in our universe that there are no answers for yet, and the same goes for things considered paranormal.

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## soundofmusic

This topic has a great deal of potential and I would love to hear of others experiences. As for those who don't believe; okay, we all know now that you don't believe; so why don't you open a thread of your own that discusses this?

Many of us who have had encounters don't go looking for them; we simply see what we see and go on with our lives. I doubt that the original buyers of the Amityville house were happy when they had to leave behind their investment. 

I was also thinking that many people who trash the idea of the paranormal are disappointed former believers. I recall the story of Houdini, who became so disappointed after he could not talk to his dead mother ; that he went on a one man mission to "out" the paranormal community. 

ie: Over the years, I have shown many people how to take their pulse; after placing their fingers over the vein, half of the people still cannot feel it. This does not mean that there is no heart beat; it only means that those people lack the sensitivity to feel it. 

Now, let's get on with the telling of experiences....
And to Daniel and papayahed: :Hurray:  :Thumbsup:

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## Nikhar

I wonder why people even care to vote when they have 'no opinion'.

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## billl

> I wonder why people even care to vote when they have 'no opinion'.


Perhaps they want to proclaim their humility, for all to hear? Or they are dedicated to statistics, and think even the 'no opinion voice' needs to be counted?

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## JuniperWoolf

> As for those who don't believe; okay, we all know now that you don't believe; so why don't you open a thread of your own that discusses this?


The title of the thread is "*Do You Believe In the paranormal* and Did you ever experience supernatural Phenomena?" 




> I was also thinking that many people who trash the idea of the paranormal are disappointed former believers.


Well, first of all we're not _trashing_ the idea of the paranormal, we're just challenging it. To challenge something isn't an insult. It's very important, that's how most of the greatest discoveries have been made (for example, if Aristotle's concept of the four elements had never been challenged we wouldn't have the periodic table). 

Secondly, I would disagree. I think that the widespread belief in the paranormal is a combination of thrill seeking (fear is exciting, and the weirdness of ghosts is a nice break from the drudgery of everyday life) and denial that death is the end (unlike Istvan though, I don't see anything wrong with that... fear of death is human, nothingness is a hard thing to come to terms with).

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## soundofmusic

> I wonder why people even care to vote when they have 'no opinion'.





> Perhaps they want to proclaim their humility, for all to hear? Or they are dedicated to statistics, and think even the 'no opinion voice' needs to be counted?


I think it helps to have their vote, too. It's like an undecided in the presidental elections. 



> The title of the thread is "*Do You Believe In the paranormal* and Did you ever experience supernatural Phenomena?" 
> 
> Well, first of all we're not _trashing_ the idea of the paranormal, we're just challenging it. To challenge something isn't an insult. It's very important, that's how most of the greatest discoveries have been made (for example, if Aristotle's concept of the four elements had never been challenged we wouldn't have the periodic table). 
> 
> Secondly, I would disagree. I think that the widespread belief in the paranormal is a combination of thrill seeking (fear is exciting, and the weirdness of ghosts is a nice break from the drudgery of everyday life) and denial that death is the end (unlike Istvan though, I don't see anything wrong with that... fear of death is human, nothingness is a hard thing to come to terms with).


Yes, Juniper, I realized that after I made the post. 
Really, though, when people begin to say that a person is either "hearing things or flat out lying"; it becomes insulting to those who are claiming such things. I think anything worth being discussed should hold up to challange; but, this topic is breaking down into an argument and passive-aggressive bullying. 
The people who have told of their experiences have not claimed that they have any empirical data. On the other hand; none of those who are challanging their experiences are backing it up with anything other than, "Oh yeah, um...Dawkins, uh...science, uh...well you're wierd"

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## Babbalanja

> Really, though, when people begin to say that a person is either "hearing things or flat out lying"; it becomes insulting to those who are claiming such things.


And it's not insulting to be called _dogmatic_ and _rigid_ for not approaching these claims with utter credulity? It's not insulting to be told that _we're_ the ones in denial for thinking these strange experiences are figments of the imagination or understandable products of grief?




> The people who have told of their experiences have not claimed that they have any empirical data. On the other hand; none of those who are challanging their experiences are backing it up with anything other than, "Oh yeah, um...Dawkins, uh...science, uh...well you're wierd"


Well, we offered perfectly reasonable explanations for the ghost-face-in-the-picture. But the burden of proof isn't on us. The people who are claiming that naturalistic science is helpless to explain these momentous, otherworldly experiences are the ones who are expecting others to believe their ghost stories. And they are the ones acting insulted when people ask questions or offer rational explanations for these not-particularly-inexplicable phenomena.

Regards,

Istvan

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## Janine

> Original photo from a couple of pages back. I'm the one in the green coat. I'm facing where that face should be and there was no one there. I can name everyone else in that photo including the photographer and the owner of the red coat that you can faintly see beside me. She was standing facing the same way. No one is missing. Not sure if you can see the back of the photo. the bunker is open. It is on both sides because i once had trains running through it. Its located close to a beach at the end of The Pembrey Estate and Woods in Wales. No residence near by. If anyone else had turned up, it would have been the park rangers or coast guard and they would have been spotted and heard before they even approached the bunker. Yet there is still a face in the photo.



*Niamh,* I am glad you posted this. I absolutely believe you. I went to a library night discussion on this same thing and the ghost investigators seemed to be totally honest. I also saw photos of the orbs and within the photo there was a face much like this one. I was prompted to go to the lecture, because my son stayed in a house his friend had purchased recently and the friend felt the house was haunted. I didn't know to if I should believe it, then but later my son, Sean, got really excited when he found a similar photo on his computer....he takes tons of photos all the time and he had not reviewed them; when he blew them up he was in for a surprise. This one definitely could not have been altered - he knows nothing of Photoshop or how to go about altering a photo. Clearly (even more than your photo) in the background through a window behind his friend was a face. It looked to be a woman from the 1800's by her hairstyle. Now, I guestioned him if maybe someone was peeking in the window, but he said it would be impossible. They set the shot up again and the window was too high for that to work. Also, when I looked at it, the demensions seemed a bit off. She would have had to be 8 foot tall and somehow the forshortening in the photo seemed wrong. But everyone said it was definitely a woman's face. He discussed the photo with his friends and they send it to the paranomial group at Rutgers University. They were very happy to have it. Needless to say, my son was scared out of his wits for months after the strange night he spend in the house.

Preceeding all of this the young man (his friend) had been renuvating the house and they took down part of a wall. Inside the wall they found an old toy. When they removed the toy is when the odd occurances began to happen. Later they put the toy back into the wall and now they spirit seems to have departed. Odd story, isn't it?

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## Satan

> Do You Believe In Ghosts or The Paranormal?


Non, non et non!

I wasted months looking for a paranormal slave during my early years: under my bed, in bathroom at night, in the ruins and everywhere else. What a disappointment!

_Normal_ is weird enough as it is.

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## DanielBenoit

> _Normal_ is weird enough as it is.


True dat.

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## JuniperWoolf

An example of how easily people are willing to believe in ghosts, and then how easy it is to disprove these stories:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_9DmF3Zc24

I love this guy, he's funny and good-natured. He has a lot of ghost story debunks, I recommend them.

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## soundofmusic

> And it's not insulting to be called _dogmatic_ and _rigid_ for not approaching these claims with utter credulity? It's not insulting to be told that _we're_ the ones in denial for thinking these strange experiences are figments of the imagination or understandable products of grief?
> 
> Well, we offered perfectly reasonable explanations for the ghost-face-in-the-picture. But the burden of proof isn't on us. The people who are claiming that naturalistic science is helpless to explain these momentous, otherworldly experiences are the ones who are expecting others to believe their ghost stories. And they are the ones acting insulted when people ask questions or offer rational explanations for these not-particularly-inexplicable phenomena.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Istvan


No, I appreciate your explanation of grief; and it is one that many psychologists would offer also, if we were ever brave enough to share these things with our psycholgists and neurologists.  :Cold: 
I didn't find your explanation for the picture, I looked several pages back. 

I know that both sides of this argument have been insulted; which is why I have suggested making the discussion less personal. We can learn alot from each other. For instance, I know little of scientific explanations for much of this phenomena. 
For me, I appreciate peoples experiences; and, I must admit, it was no more difficult for me to "take in" than the concept of "Fido" walking into the water one day and becoming a whale...Now, I buy both ideas. 
I don't think people can bear the "burden of proof" for their personal experiences; because what we see is subjective. It is up to the scientific community to prove or disprove such things. 



> An example of how easily people are willing to believe in ghosts, and then how easy it is to disprove these stories:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_9DmF3Zc24
> 
> I love this guy, he's funny and good-natured. He has a lot of ghost story debunks, I recommend them.


Thank you, Juniper. That really is something. I didn't think the thing in the window looked like a ghost; but I wasn't quite sure it looked like Ted Danson either. You make a good point though; there are many incidences in film where the paranormal was used to increase interest in the productions. 
I seem to recall that there were several rumors of the "Poltergeist" and "Twilight Zone" movies being cursed because of multiple deaths. 




> *Niamh,* I am glad you posted this. I absolutely believe you. I went to a library night discussion on this same thing and the ghost investigators seemed to be totally honest. I also saw photos of the orbs and within the photo there was a face much like this one. I was prompted to go to the lecture, because my son stayed in a house his friend had purchased recently and the friend felt the house was haunted. I didn't know to if I should believe it, then but later my son, Sean, got really excited when he found a similar photo on his computer....he takes tons of photos all the time and he had not reviewed them; when he blew them up he was in for a surprise. This one definitely could not have been altered - he knows nothing of Photoshop or how to go about altering a photo. Clearly (even more than your photo) in the background through a window behind his friend was a face. It looked to be a woman from the 1800's by her hairstyle. Now, I guestioned him if maybe someone was peeking in the window, but he said it would be impossible. They set the shot up again and the window was too high for that to work. Also, when I looked at it, the demensions seemed a bit off. She would have had to be 8 foot tall and somehow the forshortening in the photo seemed wrong. But everyone said it was definitely a woman's face. He discussed the photo with his friends and they send it to the paranomial group at Rutgers University. They were very happy to have it. Needless to say, my son was scared out of his wits for months after the strange night he spend in the house.
> 
> Preceeding all of this the young man (his friend) had been renuvating the house and they took down part of a wall. Inside the wall they found an old toy. When they removed the toy is when the odd occurances began to happen. Later they put the toy back into the wall and now they spirit seems to have departed. Odd story, isn't it?


That is amazing! What did your son do with the picture; I think it's a definite keeper. So, do you think the spirits were attached to the toy. 
I remember when the Amityville house was up for sale for 11,000 dollars. It was close to the ocean and I told my husband that the land, alone would be worth that much. I doubt if I'd move into it though. I got so freaked out in the Tower of London, I had to leave before I got to the torture chamber. 



> Non, non et non!
> 
> I wasted months looking for a paranormal slave during my early years: under my bed, in bathroom at night, in the ruins and everywhere else. What a disappointment!
> 
> _Normal_ is weird enough as it is.


Are you sure; I could have sworn I saw your face in the papers: Satan keeps man...oops, too late, ghost in chains under bed :Smilielol5:

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## Satan

> Are you sure; I could have sworn I saw your face in the papers: Satan keeps man...oops, too late, ghost in chains under bed


Argh! You know my secrets. I have to return some videotapes tonight. Coming with me?  :Ihih:

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## Babbalanja

> I didn't find your explanation for the picture, I looked several pages back.


My explanation ---get ready for this--- is that it's a living human's face. I think it's conceivable that Niamh is having us on, or that it's someone she doesn't recognize, or that it's a reflection of someone's face. Aren't all of these more likely than that the face is a disembodied spirit, mugging from the great beyond?

Janine didn't do us the courtesy of posting the picture she considers so otherworldly, but the principle is the same. She, too, could be having us on. Maybe her son is better at Photoshop than she realizes. Not having seen the face, I can't even say it looks like a face. If it does, maybe there really was a person outside the window, or it was a reflection of someone inside the room. Sound farfetched? Well, once again, how farfetched is it to believe it was the face of a ghost peering at the camera through a supernatural portal?

I'm not trying to be insulting. I'm just trying to show that there's a way to play the odds when we're dealing with questions like these.

Regards,

Istvan

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## soundofmusic

> Argh! You know my secrets. I have to return some videotapes tonight. Coming with me?


Oh my god, I haven't been out on a date in a year and I just bagged the king of hell...the man himself...though, if you don't mind, I prefer sleeping on the bed to sleeping under it :FRlol: 



> My explanation ---get ready for this--- is that it's a living human's face. I think it's conceivable that Niamh is having us on, or that it's someone she doesn't recognize, or that it's a reflection of someone's face. Aren't all of these more likely than that the face is a disembodied spirit, mugging from the great beyond?
> 
> Janine didn't do us the courtesy of posting the picture she considers so otherworldly, but the principle is the same. She, too, could be having us on. Maybe her son is better at Photoshop than she realizes. Not having seen the face, I can't even say it looks like a face. If it does, maybe there really was a person outside the window, or it was a reflection of someone inside the room. Sound farfetched? Well, once again, how farfetched is it to believe it was the face of a ghost peering at the camera through a supernatural portal?
> 
> I'm not trying to be insulting. I'm just trying to show that there's a way to play the odds when we're dealing with questions like these.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Istvan


Istvan, I sincerely appreciate your honesty :Nod:  NOw, I wouldn't go running for a popularity contest anytime soon; you might get dragged behind a pick up to area 51: :Wink5:

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## JuniperWoolf

> Thank you, Juniper. That really is something. I didn't think the thing in the window looked like a ghost; but I wasn't quite sure it looked like Ted Danson either. You make a good point though; there are many incidences in film where the paranormal was used to increase interest in the productions. 
> I seem to recall that there were several rumors of the "Poltergeist" and "Twilight Zone" movies being cursed because of multiple deaths.


I love him, he's funny. Here he takes on the most common example of paranormal phenomenon cited by ghost believers: the so-called "ghost orb" (ie. the little balls of light that sometimes show up in pictures).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh80X...eature=channel

Here's another one, this is my absolute favorite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyR_WHEmO_4




> That is amazing! What did your son do with the picture; I think it's a definite keeper. So, do you think the spirits were attached to the toy. 
> I remember when the Amityville house was up for sale for 11,000 dollars. It was close to the ocean and I told my husband that the land, alone would be worth that much. I doubt if I'd move into it though. I got so freaked out in the Tower of London, I had to leave before I got to the torture chamber.


I once stayed at a graveyard all night to see what would happen (I like to test things). It was creepy, and a deer in the woods scared me when it jumped through the trees. I also hung out in a hole in the ground of Louisburg where dozens of french Canadians got locked in and died of suffocation (this was like, 300 years ago). That was also pretty creepy. The marks were still on the walls from their fingernails.

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## soundofmusic

> I love him, he's funny. Here he takes on the most common example of paranormal phenomenon cited by ghost believers: the so-called "ghost orb" (ie. the little balls of light that sometimes show up in pictures).
> 
> I once stayed at a graveyard all night to see what would happen (I like to test things). It was creepy, and a deer in the woods scared me when it jumped through the trees. I also hung out in a hole in the ground of Louisburg where dozens of french Canadians got locked in and died of suffocation (this was like, 300 years ago). That was also pretty creepy. The marks were still on the walls from their fingernails.


I love the ball guy!
You are braver than I am; I don't even like graveyards during the day.

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## papayahed

~Reminder~

Please do not personalise your arguments.

Posts containing personal/inflammatory comments and/or showing intolerance towards other's beliefs will be removed or edited without any further notice.

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## Janine

> That is amazing! What did your son do with the picture; I think it's a definite keeper. So, do you think the spirits were attached to the toy. 
> I remember when the Amityville house was up for sale for 11,000 dollars. It was close to the ocean and I told my husband that the land, alone would be worth that much. I doubt if I'd move into it though. I got so freaked out in the Tower of London, I had to leave before I got to the torture chamber.


I think perhaps he still has the photo somewhere on his hard drive; but he is so 'touchy' when I have asked about it. The night he stayed in their house - he was suddenly awakened with some strange noise and he got up to investigate to see if his friends were playing games on him. He swears they both were sound asleep. I can tell you he must have been scared out of his wits; because he didn't sleep himself that night. This was before the photo was take and later found on his HD. His friends had told him they experienced some odd occurances in the house. The house was way out in the country. When my son showed my mother and I the photo and then he blew it up, it definitely looked to be a woman's face. I brought up the idea of it being reflected in the glass. He said absolutely no one else was in the house, but he and his friend, Joe. I know my son was not lying, if you could have seen the fearful excitement in his eyes. He's a joker sometimes; but I can tell when he is joking. He absolutely knows nothing of altering photos. I can swear for that. These were the raw files on his laptop, he bought just for his photography. He takes thousands of photos. He was very frightened everytime, I have mentioned that one photo. I just talked to Joe not long ago and he said he gave a copy to the Rutgers University Paranormal Society. If there wasn't any credence to it they would not have accepted the photo. They were pleased to have it. I found it fascinating, when I first viewed the photo, and I still do. I didn't feel any fear but then again I wasn't to the house. 

My aunt lived in a historical house and she and her husband claimed to have experienced a spirit; not on one, but many occasions. Her mother moved in the top floor apparment and she also had sitings. I do not any longer think it far-fetched at all. I don't know about the orbs, not just being some sort of natural phenomena; but I have seen photos like *Nimah's* which cleary show faces...one was away from a group in a graveyard, between what looked to be orbs of light. I notice those in the right of your photo, *Niamh*; did they disguss those at your group? My son's face photo was even clearer.

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## soundofmusic

> I think perhaps he still has the photo somewhere on his hard drive; but he is so 'touchy' when I have asked about it. The night he stayed in their house - he was suddenly awakened with some strange noise and he got up to investigate to see if his friends were playing games on him. He swears they both were sound asleep. I can tell you he must have been scared out of his wits; because he didn't sleep himself that night. This was before the photo was take and later found on his HD. His friends had told him they experienced some odd occurances in the house. The house was way out in the country. When my son showed my mother and I the photo and then he blew it up, it definitely looked to be a woman's face. I brought up the idea of it being reflected in the glass. He said absolutely no one else was in the house, but he and his friend, Joe. I know my son was not lying, if you could have seen the fearful excitement in his eyes. He's a joker sometimes; but I can tell when he is joking. He absolutely knows nothing of altering photos. I can swear for that. These were the raw files on his laptop, he bought just for his photography. He takes thousands of photos. He was very frightened everytime, I have mentioned that one photo. I just talked to Joe not long ago and he said he gave a copy to the Rutgers University Paranormal Society. If there wasn't any credence to it they would not have accepted the photo. They were pleased to have it. I found it fascinating, when I first viewed the photo, and I still do. I didn't feel any fear but then again I wasn't to the house. 
> 
> My aunt lived in a historical house and she and her husband claimed to have experienced a spirit; not on one, but many occasions. Her mother moved in the top floor apparment and she also had sitings. I do not any longer think it far-fetched at all. I don't know about the orbs, not just being some sort of natural phenomena; but I have seen photos like *Nimah's* which cleary show faces...one was away from a group in a graveyard, between what looked to be orbs of light. I notice those in the right of your photo, *Niamh*; did they disguss those at your group? My son's face photo was even clearer.


Like you, Janine, I do believe in ghosts. It has been asked why ghosts would "hang around". I have no idea; but I will say this: I don't find that people gain a great deal of insight or change a great deal on their death bed; so I don't see why ghosts would suddenly be any different than they were in life. 
Personally, I expect that if I come back, I will still be a couch potato.

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## lostworld

Yes I believe in the paranormal...but perhaps not in the traditional sense. I have seen far to much evil that is unexplainable to believe otherwise. The flip side however is to ask if it is only evil that seems to remain here after passing...

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## blazeofglory

It is difficult not to believe in ghosts. Things happen here, normal and paranormal and we try to rationalize the phenomena we come across every so often in every walk of life. 

I have so many moments I have across things that are paranormal and the experiences mystical. The words I use cannot contain all my feelings and experiences.
If there can be a mind to mind communication then only I can convince the other person I want to share with

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## TurquoiseSunset

Well, I don't want to believe in ghosts  :FRlol:  but a couple of creepy things have happened to me, so I'll tell and you decide. 

When my grandparents moved to an old age home all their furniture was divided between their children and grandchildren. I got my grandma's cabinet with a sewing machine built into it and we keep all our sewing things in the cabinet... I always lock the cabinet; it's got this tough lock that crunches when you turn the key. 

My mom's usually the one that uses the cabinet and my brother will open it occasionally to get a needle, but both of them are forever leaving the cabinet door open. So a few years back there was a period where the door was almost permanently open. Whenever I got home I'd have to close it, or when I was done watching t.v. or reading in the lounge I'd go to my room and the ruddy thing would have its mouth wide open again. So I'd go to my mom and brother and ask them to just lock it when they are done, pretty please. However, every time I asked them they would always say they didn't open the cabinet that day. I just assumed they were lying because they are always getting into trouble for leaving doors and cupboards open. It kept going on like that until they started to get irritated with me for asking them to close the door all the time. One Friday my parents and my brother were getting things ready to go away for the weekend, but I decided to stay home. I went into my room and saw the door was open. I closed and locked it, turned around and stood in my doorway while everyone was walking past me into the kitchen and out the back door. I followed them out, saw them get into the car and drive off. I went back into the house, walked down the passage and, low and behold, the door is open again. There was literally no way that anyone could have opened it since I was the last person to leave the house and the only one to go back into it. There are no back doors or windows to get in and why would anyone do that anyway? 

Anyway, make of it what you will, but it totally freaked me out that day. I locked it again and then put my bag in front of it. For a long time I always had something in front of the door...now only occasionally, but due to space issues, hehehe. It was only a year or so after that day that I realised the open-door period started right after my grans death...dum dum duuuuummmmmm  :Biggrin:

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## soundofmusic

I think it's interesting. If you checked the lock to make sure it doesn't slip and make sure the cabinet doors are even so they don't slip; then I'd believe for myself it was gran...then again, I find the idea of the supernatural very natural and comforting.

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## Pryderi Agni

No, and no.

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## TurquoiseSunset

> I think it's interesting. If you checked the lock to make sure it doesn't slip and make sure the cabinet doors are even so they don't slip; then I'd believe for myself it was gran...then again, I find the idea of the supernatural very natural and comforting.


Actually, I checked the lock every time I locked the door after my mom or brother 'left it open'. It's diffcult to turn the key...and the door doesn't slip, so even if I didn't lock it if will stay closed because it's a tight fit. That's what freaked me out even more, because I might have been able to blame it on the cat/s somehow (I would have found a way - denial is such a lovely thing  :Biggrin: ), but it's impossible for anything/one else but a human to open that door...and only if you intended to, not just by bumping the cabinet or brushing past the key and thereby turning it.

Anyway, whatever, I'm not saying it was a ghost. It was however the fist time in my life where I felt totally freaked out by the possiblity.

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## cranberry

Hello there  :Smile:  

Where I come from and as someone stated that spirits are not ghosts...
what i know that spirits of dead people come to their family and friends for extra help 
as in prayer ...when they are not peaceful or facing trouble in grave.

they usually visit people whom they know.
but they cannot be seen.

however there is what is called : Jin and or perhaps gennies in english but ofourse has nothing ever to do with a lamp like aladdin that was a story LOL  :Biggrin:  
there are good and bad and they can be seen sometimes.

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## Dodo25

I dont believe in the paranormal.

And of course I have never experienced any supernatural phenomena.

I think it's a tragedy how easily people adopt the viewpoint that there are paranormal things. I went to the book store recently and found 2 shelves of science literature next to a shocking 7 shelves of esoterics and paranormal activity and stuff. That ratio is a disgrace to the human species.

I'm not dogmatically insisting that all paranormal claims are nonsense (yet I very much believe so), I'd quickly change my view if evidence came up. Yet seriously, there are so many alternative explanations for all the phenomena mentioned here. It's so far fetched to think that there are ghosts, souls, demons or whatever responsible for this.

Twice I have been asked to check out 'psi' sites where they claim to have evidence for paranormal mind power stuff. I did so and found obvious inconsistencies in the statistical data, i.e. they claimed the 'James Randi Challenge' is unfair because odds of 100'000 to 1 against chance are impossible to achieve, even with (not too strong) paranormal powers. On another part of the very same website, they claim experiments with results of billions to 1 against chance have been done. Now if that isn't dishonest! 

As a side note, Paul the Octopus managed to get 256 to 1 against chance at predicting games in the soccer world cup, and to some people this is actually sufficient evidence that the thing is psychic! I've gotten beat in poker hands where odds were above 1000 to 1, yet this stuff happens if the sample is big enough. There are 6 billion people on earth, if everyone started 10 series of coin-flipping with the intent of getting as much heads as possible, odds are decent that one person will get heads 36 times in a row. And that's nothing supernatural, it's simple statistics!

Now if the same thing was done by everyone on earth, every day for one's whole life, it is actually likely that one person will hit a fantastic, incredibly amazingly awesome streak of legendary 50 times heads (another would hit 50 times tails if we change the rule to pursue tail streaks as well). And it will all mean: literally nothing.

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## free

I like parapsychology. It is not only about ghosts and other scary things. It is investigation of things about our world and human beings in it that have not been explained yet.

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## cacian

I voted no. there is no such thing as paranormal. it is us that are or imagine to be.

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## Iain Sparrow

> I like parapsychology. It is not only about ghosts and other scary things. It is investigation of things about our world and human beings in it that have not been explained yet.


Thus far in human history it has been, and will continue to be Science that unlocks the mysteries of the universe. :Smile:

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## YesNo

I just voted yes, because I have seen the ghost of my aunt when she died over 20 years ago. I was in Maine, in graduate school, minding my own business, when she appeared in the student common room of the house where I was staying. We had a brief conversation in our minds and she vanished. Later I got a call from my parents saying that she had died. 

Raymond Moody, who coined the term, "near death experience" called these experiences "shared death experiences". Although rare they are not that uncommon. There are two other members of my extended family who experienced something similar when a relative died. 

When someone who is supposedly a scientist, who doesn't believe that such experiences are real, explains such things, what that person does is comes up with a rationalization of the experience so that it doesn't disturb his or her materialist metaphysics. That process is not science. It is rationalization or an inappropriate way to deal with cognitive dissonance.

There are scientists who study the paranormal. One that I have liked to read is Dean Radin.

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## cacian

> I just voted yes, because I have seen the ghost of my aunt when she died over 20 years ago. I was in Maine, in graduate school, minding my own business, when she appeared in the student common room of the house where I was staying. We had a brief conversation in our minds and she vanished. Later I got a call from my parents saying that she had died. 
> 
> Raymond Moody, who coined the term, "near death experience" called these type of experiences "shared death experiences". Although rare they are not that uncommon. There are two other members of my extended family who experienced something similar when a relative died. 
> 
> When someone who is supposedly a scientist, who doesn't believe that such experiences are real, explains such things, what that person does is comes up with a rationalization of the an experience so that it doesn't disturb his or her materialist metaphysics. That process is not science. It is rationalization or an inappropriate way to deal with cognitive dissonance.
> 
> There are scientists who study the paranormal. One that I have liked to read is Dean Radin.


YesNo how do you mean by
''a conversation in our mind''?
and what was it that you said?

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## YesNo

Basically, words were exchanged, but I didn't actually hear them. It is like talking to oneself. She seemed concerned. I lived with her when I was around 10 for a year. She was a little hard to please from a 10-year old's perspective, but all she was was impatient and she and my uncle were arguing to help keep her on edge. What she said was, more or less, "I'm sorry." What I said was, more or less, "It OK."

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## cacian

> Basically, words were exchanged, but I didn't actually hear them. It is like talking to oneself. She seemed concerned. I lived with her when I was around 10 for a year. She was a little hard to please from a 10-year old's perspective, but all she was was impatient and she and my uncle were arguing to help keep her on edge. What she said was, more or less, "I'm sorry." What I said was, more or less, "It OK."


interesting.
the other thing is why would she appear in a place you were at but one that she does not know of.
I thought ghosts only appeared in the place where they either died or they know,

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## YesNo

> interesting.
> the other thing is what would she appear in a place you were at but one that she does not know.
> I thought ghosts only appeared in the place where they either died or they know,


Neither of us had any reason to know where the other one was. We were not close and had not seen each of in over a decade. She died thousands of miles from where I was studying. And yet the first time I thought of her in years was the time when she died. 

Even if it was all in my mind, which is what I thought at the time, the coincidence of her death and this conversation makes me think there was more to it. Add to that the reports of other people who have had similar experiences and I conclude, whatever it was, it was not all in my mind.

There may be other types of ghosts that haunt places. I haven't experienced ghosts in that way, but, given the experience with my aunt, I have no reason to believe that such things don't happen.

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## free

> Thus far in human history it has been, and will continue to be Science that unlocks the mysteries of the universe.


Sure.  :Smile:

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## Emil Miller

> Thus far in human history it has been, and will continue to be Science that unlocks the mysteries of the universe.


Except the one that overides all others i.e. What is the reason for the universe ?

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## free

You mean, the ultimate truths, Emil? Why shouldn't they be the subject for science?

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## Emil Miller

> You mean, the ultimate truths, Emil? Why shouldn't they be the subject for science?


I don't say that they shouldn't be of concern to science but human beings have been asking themselves what is the meaning of life and the universe since time immemorial and they are no nearer the answer than they have always been.

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## YesNo

Science has been studying the paranormal for over 100 years. Dean Radin's writing summarize the scientific results: http://www.deanradin.com/NewWeb/TCUindex.html Rupert Sheldrake attempts to build a falsifiable, scientific theory that incorporates mind on the idea of morphic fields. The bottom line for me of this research is that one cannot reduce mind or consciousness or first person awareness to any of the three currently promoted, and presumably unconscious, candidates: subatomic particles, selfish genes or neurons.

At the same time, we haven't figured out the meaning of life although the best first step is a belief that it is good. 

I realize I could have avoided all that rambling by just saying I agree with both free and Emil Miller.

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## Pompey Bum

First of all, I want to carp about the category "I'm open minded about the subject." That is something that could apply to those who chose any of the other categories, from not believing to believing that everything can be explained by science (especially the latter, since science remains open to any new empirical data squeezing through its method). It would have been interesting to see the categories people would have chosen if that had not been an option. I suspect more people would have said no if they really had to choose. 

Now that I've got that off my chest, I will believe in ghosts when they can be conjured up in laboratory conditions with repeatable results. Until then, they remain a matter of faith, and I do not have faith in their existence. (It is a source of amazement and amusement to me, by the way, how many people believe in ghosts, or souls, or soul mates, or a host of other things they find cool, but disdain faith in God as wishful thinking--but I guess that is for another discussion). I don't believe in ghosts, but of course I am open-minded to the possibility of their eventual "discovery."

I did have a strange experience, though, and I fully admit that at the time it was a little scary. It happened a few years ago when I was living in a country town in New England--not too remote but remote enough. My wife was visiting her family in the Far East at the time and I had been living on my own for about two months. One night in late September I was standing at our kitchen sink rinsing off some dishes. There is a window over the sink that looks into the back yard, and as I stood there, I saw a sudden small flash of light, maybe six feet above the ground, and about 100 feet away. It was much too large to have been a firefly but too small to have been much of anything else. If anyone here is old enough to remember that long extinct dinosaur of photography known as a flash cube, it had that sort of size and intensity. 

My initial response was: What the hell was that? The thought or feeling that it had been supernatural didn't enter into my mind. It had happened so quickly and unexpectedly, though, that I didn't really know what I had seen. I wasn't ready for it. Then, perhaps 20 seconds later, there was a second flash, directly in front of the window. It created the frightening illusion that whatever had flashed the first time had flown directly at my face. That startled me to the point of physical fear, by which I mean that the hair on my arms stood on end. (Yes, yes, "PAM has hair on his arms."  :Smile:  )

At that point I left the kitchen and sat in the chair where I like to read. I thought rational thoughts and read rational things, and after some time, I got a grip and actually went into the back yard. There was no sign of spooks, or aliens, or even soul mates. It was much to cold for anything like fireflies, though--the first cold night of the year.

That's sort of the end of the story, except for a strange dream I had that night (or actually the next early morning) that those who believe in ghosts may consider evidence for their view. It was a type of dream I have had all my life, although I get it only once or twice every few years. I dream that I wake up and get out of bed--the dream being so vivid, realistic, and accurate in detail that it may as well be real as far as my perception is concerned. But these dreams are always nightmares and always involve evil spirits or ghosts or whatever you want to call them. This was a relatively mild one.

In this dream, I awoke and, as usual, I talked a little with my wife a little before getting up. (That, of course, should have been the tell-tale sign that something was fishy, since she was in Taipei at the time). As we talked, though, I became increasingly aware that, although she looked and sounded like my wife, there was something missing; in some intangible way, it just wasn't her. At one point, she told me that the ground was very cold. "Just look outside," she said, "and you will see the frost." I got up, drew the curtains on a window back, and saw frost glistening in the morning light. I continued to have a strong feeling that this was not really my wife.

At that point, I turned and faced the woman, who unbeknownst to me had also risen and was standing directly behind me. I got a little start since she was closer to me than I had thought. Finally I looked her in the eyes and said, "Look, I don't mean to offend you, but I should tell you that I know that you aren't really [my wife's name]. The woman glared at me with a mixture of hatred and disdain, then turned around and stalked out of the bedroom. At that point I awoke for real and in terror. No ghost was there, and of course the window curtain was closed; but when I did draw it back, I looked down on the same frost glittering on the late September grass.

This was a dream, nothing more. It may have been brought on by the earlier fright, with the detail of the frost added simply because it was a cold night. Although it has not been exclusively so, I have tended to get that kind of vivid dream on nights when I find myself alone. After considerable scientific and spiritual reflection, I have decided that it's because I am a big wuss.

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## Ecurb

Abut five years ago my friend and longtime work colleague got married (she was middle-aged -- her second marriage). I had dinner at a table with her aunt and uncle. The uncle was Lewis Mudge, a theologian, Episcopal Priest, and former professor at Amherst and University of Chicago -- and my friend thought her aunt (a documentary film-maker) and uncle and I would hit it off, which is why she seated us together.

She was right. We had a great time at dinner and at the wedding. I told her how much I enjoyed her relatives.

About two months later, she came into my office at work. "Let's look google my uncle, whom you met at the wedding," she said. "I just want to show you how famous he is and how many books he's written." 

So we googled him, and talked about my conversation with him and his wife, and how much I enjoyed their company.

The next day, my friend told me that her father had called that morning and told her that the uncle had died suddenly (he was 80 years old) at almost the exact time we were having our conversation the day before. What possessed her to think about her uncle at that precise moment? 

Of course, any supernatural experience was hers -- not mine. 

One side note: my friend's aunt and uncle once lived in Emily Dickinson's old house in Amherst.

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## free

> human beings have been asking themselves what is the meaning of life and the universe since time immemorial and they are no nearer the answer than they have always been.


I agree with this. But, being an incurable optimist  :Smile: , I still believe and hope that when we here, on Earth, stop investing most of our intelligence into fighting and distruction, the day will come to reveal the mysteries of life that interest us.

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## Paulclem

That's interesting stuff Pompey. I like your attitude in that you don't overblow it but are willing to share. 

I've had a few experiences - nothing very startling - where it just defies explanation, and I think an open sensible mind is the right approach. One of the difficulties with strange experiences is the fact of them being unrepeatable. In that sense science can't comment on it, but should be open minded too. Ghosts in all likelihood do not exist in the way they are traditionally presented otherwise we would see more of them. The x factor in such recounts is the human mind and it's potential.

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## Carousel

I was a profound sceptic on all things that come under the paranormal banner my attitude was show me some positive evidence then Ill consider it. Then, a few years ago I was shown positive evidence.

My wife and I had recently moved to the Romney Marsh in the county of Kent. The Romney and the Walland Marshs are flat wetlands reclaimed over the centuries from the sea. You can easily acquire more info from the web.
The roads across the marsh twist and turn dramatically, bends are very near the left and right turns. They are unlit at night, very narrow and many have irrigation ditches either side. None have paths or pavements. To sum up they can be very dangerous to drive on at night.

We had made our Christmas Eve rounds to our London relatives and friends and had left it late to drive home so it was two oclock on Christmas morning when I was driving across the Marsh. It was a cold crystal clear night with a heavy frost on the road I could see ice forming in the headlights. I was approaching a very sharp bend, so sharp that it was impossible to see round the other side. 
Halfway round the bend a figure was standing by the side of the road. My wife screamed as I swerved to avoid hitting him, the car skidded across towards a steep ditch. I dont know how but I regained control and braked to a stop.

My wife was in a state of shock, I was absolutely livid; the idiot had almost killed the both of us. I opened the car door, 
John dont, it never had a face
Thats not all hell be missing if I get hold of him
I ran around the corner, there was no one there. He couldnt have gone anywhere, there was a bright moon and in the flat empty fields, there was simply no where to hide.

My recollection of the figure is only based on a second or two but it was tall wearing an ankle long garment, it held its hands high to its face as if it was reading a book.
It could have only been no more than a foot from my wife on the nearside passenger seat but still to today she never discusses it and hates it when I tell friends of the experience.

Personally I dont care if anyone believes this tale of not, I know its true and thats all that matters. Have I any explanation? Well no, but if you twist my arm I have come round to the theory that we experienced a Time Slip. We were witnessing an episode from the past. The figure itself had no substance; it never belonged to our time. It wouldnt have mattered if I had driven straight through it, though that option wasnt available at the time.

The occurrence of Time Slips is not as rare as I once thought and they fit more comfortably with an explanation of ghostly experiences than many others.

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## Emil Miller

> I agree with this. But, being an incurable optimist , I still believe and hope that when we here, on Earth, stop investing most of our intelligence into fighting and distruction, the day will come to reveal the mysteries of life that interest us.


I think that one will need more than optimism. The digital revolution has enabled science to make some headway in answering the question, 'how'? but until it can answer 'why'?, it will have failed to solve the fundamental problem that besets the human race.

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## Emil Miller

> I was a profound sceptic on all things that come under the paranormal banner my attitude was show me some positive evidence then Ill consider it. Then, a few years ago I was shown positive evidence.
> 
> My wife and I had recently moved to the Romney Marsh in the county of Kent. The Romney and the Walland Marshs are flat wetlands reclaimed over the centuries from the sea. You can easily acquire more info from the web.
> The roads across the marsh twist and turn dramatically, bends are very near the left and right turns. They are unlit at night, very narrow and many have irrigation ditches either side. None have paths or pavements. To sum up they can be very dangerous to drive on at night.
> 
> We had made our Christmas Eve rounds to our London relatives and friends and had left it late to drive home so it was two oclock on Christmas morning when I was driving across the Marsh. It was a cold crystal clear night with a heavy frost on the road I could see ice forming in the headlights. I was approaching a very sharp bend, so sharp that it was impossible to see round the other side. 
> Halfway round the bend a figure was standing by the side of the road. My wife screamed as I swerved to avoid hitting him, the car skidded across towards a steep ditch. I dont know how but I regained control and braked to a stop.
> 
> My wife was in a state of shock, I was absolutely livid; the idiot had almost killed the both of us. I opened the car door, 
> ...


I think I can explain this phenomenon. It was also in the early hours of the morning when I was a passenger in a car being driven along a deserted country road in Somerset. The driver and his wife were seated in the front and, as we turned a bend, I saw a strange figure standing at the side of the road ahead. My friends told me that on one occasion they had seen what looked exactly like a man standing by the road at a similar hour and only later did they discover that, for some reason, pockets of fog form shapes momentarily before disappearing into the atmosphere. I must say that the object I saw certainly looked solid enough but their explanation put my mind at ease.

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## Pompey Bum

> I think that one will need more than optimism. The digital revolution has enabled science to make some headway in answering the question, 'how'? but until it can answer 'why'?, it will have failed to solve the fundamental problem that besets the human race.


Bravo. I once saw a science book for children called The Big Book of Why. Wrong!--I remember thinking--Science is The Big Book of How. Why can be quite another matter.

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## Carousel

I take your point and its true that the Marsh can be misty but not on that night. It was a crystal clear night with a three quarter moon and any mist would have been reflected back because the car headlights were at full beam.
I spoke to my wife who said that if her side window had been open she could have put her hand out and touched the figure, she was that close to it, so there was no way it could have been a mist.

About 15 miles from where I live is Dover Castle which stands high on the white cliffs above the port and town of Dover. The largest castle in Britain; it was originally built a thousand years ago and was added to over the centuries to defend the shortest gateway to the realm.
If you are looking for Walt Disney palaces and pretty turrets from where Rapunzel dangled down her golden locks, walk on by, Dover castle wasnt built for fairy tales, it was built for business.
Underneath this fortress are maze of tunnels the latest of which where dug just before WW2. Deep down remains a command post, a hospital, canteens sleeping quarters and a telephone switchboard all now open to the public on guided tours. From time to time visitors experience strange events in these tunnels. The most disturbing to date was a Dutch lady in a group of tourists who later said she moved to one side to let a man in uniform walk round her when he walked straight through her. She was taken to hospital in a traumatic fit.

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## Pompey Bum

> That's interesting stuff Pompey. I like your attitude in that you don't overblow it but are willing to share.


Thanks Paul. Not believing in ghosts doesn't make one closed-minded any more than it does credulous. And apparently (based on my experience), it doesn't even stop them from messing with you.  :Smile:  




> I've had a few experiences - nothing very startling - where it just defies explanation, and I think an open sensible mind is the right approach. One of the difficulties with strange experiences is the fact of them being unrepeatable. In that sense science can't comment on it, but should be open minded too.


That is something you often hear religious apologists say about miracles: that they are one-time events or that they are inherently outside of natural science. I know what they mean, I suppose, but as an argument, I don't find it very convincing. In fact, it's a tautology: it's just saying that the supernatural is supernatural or the miraculous is miraculous. It doesn't advance the argument that either the supernatural or the miraculous actually exist. So science _can_ comment inasmuch as it can say No, I'm sorry, that won't quite cut the mustard. But of course science remains open to new data.




> Ghosts in all likelihood do not exist in the way they are traditionally presented otherwise we would see more of them. The x factor in such recounts is the human mind and it's potential.


Well let me put it this way: I'm glad that Pendragon and Carousel are thinking of their ghosts (a Confederate soldier and a mysterious robed figure, respectively) as time anomalies, because otherwise we would need to address the troubling issue of whether they were wearing the ghosts of their respective uniform and robe. At a certain point, it's time for string theory.  :Smile:

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## Carousel

> Well let me put it this way: I'm glad that Pendragon and Carousel are thinking of their ghosts (a Confederate soldier and a mysterious robed figure, respectively) as time anomalies, because otherwise we would need to address the troubling issue of whether they were wearing the ghosts of their respective uniform and robe. At a certain point, it's time for string theory.




No I am not talking of ghosts in the literal sense of the word those who experience a time slip are witnessing a real event of the past much like a replayed scene for an old movie as an intruder. Doing a bit of research in the subject I’ve found that the time slip for the majority is very short no more than a few minutes while a few are longer.

The one who is in a time slip can see and some can hear but is in the roll of an invisible observer. What they see is nearly always mundane, people and traffic pass by, workers in fields, just folks going about their normal lives.

A more interesting account concerned a young apprentice plumber by the name of Harry Martindale. I haven’t the time to spend in writing the account myself but here is one I downloaded.
It was 1953, and the Treasurer’s House was having modern central heating installed. Harry was tasked with checking over the joints of pipes installed by his more experienced colleagues, which was why he went down into the cellar - alone.
Harry was intent on his work when the incident began. He was up a short ladder so that he could check piping that was running along just below the cellar ceiling. He heard a muffled trumpet blast, but took no notice. He thought perhaps a band was nearby practising. The trumpet came again, nearer this time. Again Harry ignored it. Then a horse stepped out of the solid wall right in front of Harry’s eyes. Thunderstruck and terrified in equal measure, Harry fell off his ladder and tumbled to the floor. As he scrambled to get away from the figure of the horse, Harry could not tear his eyes from the apparition.

The horse continued to emerge from the wall into the cellar. On its back was a man in a long cloak and a helmet with a feather crest on it. Behind the horseman came a dozen or more men on foot. As Harry gradually recovered from his shock, he was deeply relieved to see that the ghosts paid him not the slightest bit of attention but marched on as if he were not there. The men on foot carried large, round shields with long spears slung over their shoulders and short swords hanging from their belts. They had what looked like kilts, dyed a dark green colour, and mail shirts. One of them carried a trumpet that was long, straight and battered as if from long years of hard use.

As the men marched across the cellar, Harry realised that he could not see them from the knees downward. Then the horsemen came to a spot where a hole had been dug into the floor. Harry could now see the horse’s legs almost down to the hooves. They carried shaggy hair around the fetlocks, similar to those on a modern shire horse. As the men on foot passed the hole, Harry could see their legs down to the ankles. They were wearing leather sandals attached by straps that ran criss-cross fashion up to the knees. The men marched on, giving out an aura of dejection and despondency, until they vanished into the wall opposite.

Excavations have shown that a Roman road runs underneath the Treasurer’s House leading from what had been a gate in the fortress walls to the east toward the headquarters building that stood where the Minster nave is now. The ghosts follow the route of this former road precisely. Even more interestingly, the surface of the road is about 18 inches below the cellar floor, and some three inches lower than the bottom of the hole that was there in Harry’s day. The ghosts are, of course, seen only from the knees up so it would seem that they are marching along the surface of the old road that existed when they were alive.

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## Pompey Bum

My point exactly. You're going to do better with that sort of thing than trying to explain how dead souls are wearing the ghosts of their clothes (especially if Grannie's nighty is still in the closet). Time slips get mixed reviews these days--apparently the original claim of two 20th century English academics that at least one of them had chanced upon Marie Antoinette near Versailles during a trip to France turns out to have been considerably embellished after their own research into "things they couldn't possibly have known at the time."

From the Museum of Hoaxes website:

_The most damaging analysis of their claims appeared in 1950, written by W.H. Salter. Salter concluded, based upon a close review of Jourdain and Moberly's correspondence with the Society for Psychical Research, that many details included in the accounts they had (supposedly) written in 1901 had actually been added at a much later date, in 1906, after the women had conducted extensive historical research. This discovery cast serious doubt upon their claims, because their entire case had rested upon the impossibility of the two of them, in 1901, being able to give an accurate description of 1789 Versailles._

And as far as Harry Martindale goes, anecdotal evidence about seeing ancient Romans--not even reported until 20 years after the alleged event--only gets you so far. But time travel, parallel universes, the multiverse--there may not be a shred non-theoretical evidence for any of them, but they're all way better than ghosts. And the multiverse may even be real.  :Smile:

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## YesNo

> But time travel, parallel universes, the multiverse--there may not be a shred non-theoretical evidence for any of them, but they're all way better than ghosts. And the multiverse may even be real.


It depends on what you _want_ to believe. I am pretty sure there is a "multiverse" because our universe had a beginning and I assume that beginning was not a unique event. I don't see why those other universes would be much different from our own. That means I want to believe that events aren't too unique. I like the metaphor of the cosmic egg that hatched into our universe. It is organic rather than mechanical.

However, I think that a "many worlds" multiverse depends on wanting to believe in complete determinism in spite of quantum mechanics insisting that is false. It is too mechanistic for me, so I don't _want_ to believe in mechanistic metaphors. Also time travel depends on time being real and not just changes in position. It implies there is a sort of "block universe" which also implies determinism which doesn't seem organic enough for my taste. So I don't want to believe in it.

I don't mind believing in ghosts. I want to believe that consciousness is primary and even more important than matter, if matter has any substance at all to it after quantum physics got through with it.

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## Pompey Bum

> It depends on what you _want_ to believe.


I agree with you to the extent that making meaning of our lives is a matter of choosing the things we believe. Personally I don't make those choices based on what I want to believe, but on a number of criteria, including reason, common sense, experience, and various types of knowledge; nor do I imagine that my belief in something in itself makes it so. Like everyone else, I can only do up to my best to understand--and I seldom do that!  :Smile: 




> I am pretty sure there is a "multiverse" because our universe had a beginning and I assume that beginning was not a unique event. I don't see why those other universes would be much different from our own. That means I want to believe that events aren't too unique.


I have to confess to being well out of my depth with theoretical physics. After I wrote my response to Carousel, I remembered that according to the mathematical theory of the multiverse (at least as it was spoon fed to me on public television), there can be no intercourse between universes--so that wouldn't account for the sort of time anomaly he is proposing. But you probably know more about it than me.




> I like the metaphor of the cosmic egg that hatched into our universe. It is organic rather than mechanical.


Metaphors on the other hand are free.  :Smile:  But cosmic eggs suggest cosmic chickens, and that puts me in fear of cosmic chicken sh*t. I choose the handsome monkey king's war with Heaven as a metaphor for the human condition, although I don't really get that story's cosmology (stone monkey eggs are just weird). 




> I don't mind believing in ghosts. I want to believe that consciousness is primary and even more important than matter, if matter has any substance at all to it after quantum physics got through with it.


As I said before, I have no faith in the silly things. But your mention of the primacy of consciousness over matter is interesting. There's a book I've been meaning to read called Biocentricity (by the physician who pioneered stem cell science) that sounds remotely similar. I know very little about the subject. Are you familiar with it?

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## 108 fountains

I guess I fall under the "not in the usual sense" category in that I think there are some phenomena that science cannot (yet) explain.

A few things have happned to me that were unusual, but one stands out far in front of the rest. I lived in Nepal for about two years and among the many friends I made was a man named Musafi. He was a big strong guy, with a prominent mustache, probably in his mid-thirties, and sold meat in a local market. He wasn't among my closest friends, but he was a friend nevertheless. Although I don't remember, at some point I must have given him my home mailing address in the United States.

Some six or seven months after returning to my home in the United States, I had an extremely vivid dream about Musafi. It was like I was looking down at him from the ceiling. He was sitting on a wooden chair in a small jail cell lit by sunlight streaming in from a single barred window near to where I was looking down from. He was writing a letter, and I could read the letter. Although I don't remember every word now (this happened many years ago), the gist was that he was writing a letter to me telling me that he had been arrested for murder and that he was innocent and asking if I could do anything to help him. One of the mnost vivid parts of the dream was the sensation I had that he was writing out of desperation and terror. Then I woke up.

This was in the early 1980s before e-mail and cellphones. It would normally take 10 days to two weeks to send or receive a letter between Nepal and the United States. About two weeks after my dream, I received a letter from Musafi. In it, he told me he had been arrested and was in jail (it said nothing about a murder) and asking if there was anything I could do to help. And there was a definite sense of desperation in the tone of the letter (written in somewhat broken English). Of course, I couldn't do anything to help, and I never answered the letter. But to this day, I am convinced that (given the 12 hour time difference and the fact that I received the letter two weeks later) I actually saw Musafi writing the letter from his jail cell. 

I'll relate one more incident, not experienced by me, but by a neighbor of my late aunt. This elderly aunt of mine, who had been sick for many months and who had not been outside of her house in weeks, died in the afternoon in her home. At the funeral home a couple of days later, her neighbor told me that he saw her the evening that she died walking down the road past his house (he didn't know at the time that she had died a couple of hours earlier). He saw her from the window and he remarked to his wife that he was surprised to see Marie walking outside since she had been sick so long. His wife corroborated the story, but it was clear she didn't want him to be talking about it at the funeral home.

I'm actually writing a short story based on this incident and hope to post it on the Forum soon.

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## Paulclem

> Thanks Paul. Not believing in ghosts doesn't make one closed-minded any more than it does credulous. And apparently (based on my experience), it doesn't even stop them from messing with you.  
> 
> 
> 
> That is something you often hear religious apologists say about miracles: that they are one-time events or that they are inherently outside of natural science. I know what they mean, I suppose, but as an argument, I don't find it very convincing. In fact, it's a tautology: it's just saying that the supernatural is supernatural or the miraculous is miraculous. It doesn't advance the argument that either the supernatural or the miraculous actually exist. So science _can_ comment inasmuch as it can say No, I'm sorry, that won't quite cut the mustard. But of course science remains open to new data.
> 
> 
> 
> Well let me put it this way: I'm glad that Pendragon and Carousel are thinking of their ghosts (a Confederate soldier and a mysterious robed figure, respectively) as time anomalies, because otherwise we would need to address the troubling issue of whether they were wearing the ghosts of their respective uniform and robe. At a certain point, it's time for string theory.



The whole time slip thing is as speculative as claiming a traditional ghostly prescence don't you think? I feel that given the dominance of the scientific worldview, the idea of a time slip seems to be a more acceptable explanation, whereas there is no more actual evidence for it being the explanation than for a dead person. I put that down to a kind of conditioning - it is deeply - unfashionable is the wrong word- unfashionable to refer to hauntings and ghosts whereas reference to physics, time and scientific sounding theories is ok. 

Culturally, that is interesting - I'm not trying to be critical of you here by the way. How could I be - there's no evidence either way for the truth of the matter? I do feel that science - with good reason - has become the default setting. Email's comment about the fog forming shapes is a clear attempt to rationalise a situation for which he couldn't possibly know anything about - especially given that the clearness of the night had already been stated. 

The problem it throws up is not that it contradicts earlier beliefs in ghosts for example, but that it might blind or obscure the actual facts of the matter which could be something equally radical and new. 

It is a fascinating topic as much for the reactions to it as the possibilities it might present.

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## YesNo

> I'll relate one more incident, not experienced by me, but by a neighbor of my late aunt. This elderly aunt of mine, who had been sick for many months and who had not been outside of her house in weeks, died in the afternoon in her home. At the funeral home a couple of days later, her neighbor told me that he saw her the evening that she died walking down the road past his house (he didn't know at the time that she had died a couple of hours earlier). He saw her from the window and he remarked to his wife that he was surprised to see Marie walking outside since she had been sick so long. His wife corroborated the story, but it was clear she didn't want him to be talking about it at the funeral home.


My niece's young daughter, about 7 or 8 years old, saw my father, her great-grandfather, walk across the backyard of the house they lived in together shortly after he died. She thought her daughter was delusional. 

I told her about how I saw my aunt and had a brief mental conversation with her around the time she died. Her boyfriend said he experienced something similar with a grandparent of his. 

My niece was at least consistent in receiving all this evidence. She had no problem thinking all three of us were delusional.

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## YesNo

> I have to confess to being well out of my depth with theoretical physics. After I wrote my response to Carousel, I remembered that according to the mathematical theory of the multiverse (at least as it was spoon fed to me on public television), there can be no intercourse between universes--so that wouldn't account for the sort of time anomaly he is proposing. But you probably know more about it than me.


Almost everything I might think I know about physics (big bang, many worlds, quantum physics, astronomy) or religion or even literature comes from Lit Net. Someone writes something and I look it up either in the library or on the internet. I'm no expert on any of this, but I figure it doesn't hurt to give my opinion.

So, taking what I have to say with a grain of salt, I think you're right that those many worlds are not able to communicate with each other except when it is convenient for them to do so such as account for the indeterminacy in our world. It is also convenient that you can't see Santa go down the furnace flue to deliver the presents.




> Metaphors on the other hand are free.  But cosmic eggs suggest cosmic chickens, and that puts me in fear of cosmic chicken sh*t. I choose the handsome monkey king's war with Heaven as a metaphor for the human condition, although I don't really get that story's cosmology (stone monkey eggs are just weird).


After I wrote that about the cosmic egg, I thought that metaphor is probably not good either. It does account for a beginning. One can get a male/female role in place. The female (Shakti, yin) lays the egg that the male (Shiva, yang) fertilizes. But how does the universe continue the process? Does the egg hatch into a Shiva or Shakti?

I probably need a better metaphor. 




> As I said before, I have no faith in the silly things. But your mention of the primacy of consciousness over matter is interesting. There's a book I've been meaning to read called Biocentricity (by the physician who pioneered stem cell science) that sounds remotely similar. I know very little about the subject. Are you familiar with it?


I'll see if I can find Biocentricity. 

I've been reading George Berkeley, the 17th century idealistic empiricist. I see him anticipating quantum physics. Consciousness seems so fleeting, like sound, that it doesn't seem as substantial as this computer I'm using right now, but if I understand quantum physics (and I probably don't) there is nothing substantial underlying matter. To assume there is leads to a contradiction. That idea came from Rosenblum and Kuttner's "Quantum Enigma".

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## Pompey Bum

> The whole time slip thing is as speculative as claiming a traditional ghostly prescence don't you think?


Yes, I do. Personally I'm as skeptical of one as the other. 




> I feel that given the dominance of the scientific worldview, the idea of a time slip seems to be a more acceptable explanation, whereas there is no more actual evidence for it being the explanation than for a dead person. I put that down to a kind of conditioning - it is deeply - unfashionable is the wrong word- unfashionable to refer to hauntings and ghosts whereas reference to physics, time and scientific sounding theories is ok.


I agree that there is about as much evidence for time slips as there is for ghosts. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that the evidence is of the same inconclusive and unconvincing type: anecdotal. Time slips may also be an example of reification, which means creating or seeming to create the existence of a phenomenon by naming it and treating it as real. But again, I don't know enough about theoretical physics to be sure of that. On the surface, however, it seems less absurd at least than ghosts. Whether that's because of cultural conditioning, as you say, or just because the quantum universe is a zany place, I don't know. But I imagine that's the reason for the prevalence of such stories. 




> Email's comment about the fog forming shapes is a clear attempt to rationalise a situation for which he couldn't possibly know anything about - especially given that the clearness of the night had already been stated.


I'm not so sure about that. The night was clear, but it was night, and night on a marshland at that. There is an interesting psychological phenomenon--more of an optical illusion--called pareidolia, which is the mind's construction of human or human-like forms from random background material (The Virgin Mary on a taco shell, that sort of thing). Some pareidolic images are cartoonish, but others appear virtually photographic. There are scientists who think that pareidolia is an evolutionary vestige of the millions of years that our hominid ancestors needed to be able to detect the faces and forms of predators at night against a topography that aided camouflage (natural selection favoring those who erred on the side of caution over those who erred on the side of "Meh--it's probably just a rock!") Emil can speak for himself about whether he was talking about something like that, but in the meantime, I wouldn't be too dismissive. It's a more likely explanation than a time slips (or ghosts).

I have an amazing photograph, by the way, that I took in the early 90s at a Taoist/animist (spirit worship) temple in the hills near Taipei. I was in a decrepit and nearly abandoned upper floor of this Temple (I had jumped a chain with a sign telling me not to go up there) and was photographing shrines to various animistic deities, typically with grotesque-looking effigies. One of them featured two small and not terribly scary looking figures; but when I got the pictures back (this was before digital cameras), there was a near-photographic image of a face that resembled pictures of Pan or Satan, over the alter. Its head was tilted back and its eyes seemed to be open in rage. it definitely looked like it didn't like having its picture taken. This was (and is--I still have the picture) a perfect example of a pareidolic face because, even though it looks like a photograph of the devil, you can see the things on the alter that compose it (the eyes, for example, are the heads of the two small effigies). It is also remarkable (from a psycho-neurological perspective) in that the photographic aspect of the image is much more pronounced in the lower to middle part of the face. The horns at the top of the head are obviously from a design on a painted board behind the alter. It's a creepy picture in a way (especially considering the circumstances in which it was taken); but in another way, it's easy to see that the whole thing is an optical illusion.

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## Carousel

I have no interest or desire in wanting to believe in anything, UFOs, Parallel Universes etc. but when an incident happens to you when theres no adequate explanation its only natural that you look to make sense of it.
Time Slips are not common in relation to other reported paranormal experiences and differ from the accounts of ghostly witnesses i.e. encounters with the dead, fuzzy images etc, and time Slips are not confined to the past, the can also be glimpses of the future.

So what are the possible explanations, hoaxers, attention seekers, well possible but not probable. If I was going to the trouble to invent a hoax I think I would do a bit better than a two second glimpse of a figure standing on a road and apart from the initial shock many of these slips in time are witnesses to the mundane as I mention before. You dont get to have a chat with Napoleon or have a front row seat to the battle of Agincourt.

So that leaves hallucinations which are a more probable explanation but then you have to account for two or three individuals that are having the same vision at the same time; which is most improbable.

Of course the existence of slips in time is just speculation and I would have agreed but for my own experience but I suggest they are a more feasible understanding than dead spirits retuning to scare the living daylights out of you.

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## Pompey Bum

> I suggest they are a more feasible understanding than dead spirits retuning to scare the living daylights out of you.


Well perhaps. Or perhaps Paul's right--maybe time slips only sound less silly than ghosts because they appear to have the trappings of science about them. Do we even know, for example, that time slips are theoretically possible (by which I mean, have they been suggested by the mathematics of theoretical physics)? If not, then count me out. It's bad logic (classic circular thinking) to say that time slips exist because people who have seen revenants (or claim to have seen them) have experienced time slips. 




> So what are the possible explanations, hoaxers, attention seekers, well possible but not probable. If I was going to the trouble to invent a hoax I think I would do a bit better than a two second glimpse of a figure standing on a road and apart from the initial shock


Oh I take it on faith that you're not lying. But I don't agree that many others wouldn't do so--to gain fame, or to feel important, or to believe that they were clever enough to pull one over on the supposedly smart people. And to take the Thomas Ockham approach, lying is the simplest explanation for the presence of ancient Romans in the cellar of the York treasury building ("We've tried sprays, we've tried powders, we just can't get those Romans out!"). It is the most likely explanation by (by far).




> many of these slips in time are witnesses to the mundane as I mention before. You don’t get to have a chat with Napoleon or have a front row seat to the battle of Agincourt.


Well to be fair, the original "time slip" allegation (the so-called "Versailles time slip") included a sighting of Marie Antoinette, who may have been worldly but was hardly mundane. But it's not clear to me what mundane features of a story have to do with its veracity. An allegation of ancient Romans walking through walls in 20th century York is about as far-fetched as a 20th century celebrity sighting of Marie Antoinette, isn't it?




> So that leaves hallucinations which are a more probable explanation but then you have to account for two or three individuals that are having the same vision at the same time; which is most improbable.


Well it doesn't "leave hallucinations" in the sense of hallucinations being the only possible solution besides time slips. But in your case, let's dismiss the idea that you and your wife were hallucinating. I will tell you exactly what I think happened that night, but I want you to understand that no part of it is a criticism of you. As you said, you are merely making meaning from an experience, and of course, you must make that meaning yourself. But here's what I think happened: 

You were driving along Romney Marsh at night when, very suddenly and unexpectedly, in what you have described as "a two second glimpse," you and your wife simultaneously perceived a pareidolic image against the background of moonlight on the marsh. (Paradolia is a scientifically recognized phenomenon while time slips are not; and it was not a "shared hallucination" since any number of people may perceive such images). You pulled your car to a halt, but because it had moved, the the momentary illusion was lost. You saw no one on the marsh because there was no one to be seen. Almost immediately your memory played this dramatic but lightning fast event back for you, as it has many times since. Each time, you have retained not only the memory of the event but your memory of the memory--somewhat embellished by reduplicative error (this is the classic problem with the reliability of eye-witness testimony). At this point, you remember the experience and the image much more distinctly than the sudden two-second illusion that it was, and for which you were completely unprepared.

If we eliminate the possibility of dishonest testimony (which, as I said, I am more than willing to do in this case), then my explanation is far more likely than a time slip. If it is discredited, though, I fear we must fall back on one of two of my alternate hypotheses, both more likely than time slips (or ghosts):

1. The Scarecrow of Romney Marsh (who turned out to be a local clergyman, I think)

2. Well, I didn't want to say this before, but it _was_ Christmas Eve...  :Smile:

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## YesNo

> If we eliminate the possibility of dishonest testimony (which, as I said, I am more than willing to do in this case), then my explanation is *far more likely* than a time slip. If it is discredited, though, I fear we must fall back on one of two of my alternate hypotheses, both *more likely* than time slips (or ghosts):
> 
> 1. The Scarecrow of Romney Marsh (who turned out to be a local clergyman, I think)
> 
> 2. Well, I didn't want to say this before, but it _was_ Christmas Eve...


How do we justify that one explanation is "more likely" than another?

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## Ecurb

> How do we justify that one explanation is "more likely" than another?


My guess: any ONE SPECIFIC explanation for such an event is exceedingly UNLIKELY. There are thousands of possible explanations -- picking any one of them is merely making a wild guess. Obviously, the more general the explanation (there's a "natural" explanation, for example, as Pompey suggests, but without the specific details he suggests), the more likely it is to be at least somewhat correct.

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## Pompey Bum

> How do we justify that one explanation is "more likely" than another?


If you dig through all my blither, yes/no, you will find that my criteria for the likelihood of pareidolia over time slips were that time slips have not been demonstrated, nor are they indicated by the mathematics of theoretical physics (but again, if they are, please let me know); whereas pareidolia is a commonly accepted neuro-psychological phenomenon that has been frequently demonstrated. 

As for the part of my post you quote, my principle was taken from the great John Le Carre, who once wrote: _ I believe an eleven bus will take me to Hammersmith. I don't believe it's driven by Father Christmas._  :Smile:

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## Carousel

> You were driving along Romney Marsh at night when, very suddenly and unexpectedly, in what you have described as "a two second glimpse," you and your wife simultaneously perceived a pareidolic image against the background of moonlight on the marsh. (Paradolia is a scientifically recognized phenomenon while time slips are not; and it was not a "shared hallucination" since any number of people may perceive such images). You pulled your car to a halt, but because it had moved, the the momentary illusion was lost. You saw no one on the marsh because there was no one to be seen. Almost immediately your memory played this dramatic but lightning fast event back for you, as it has many times since. Each time, you have retained not only the memory of the event but your memory of the memory--somewhat embellished by reduplicative error (this is the classic problem with the reliability of eye-witness testimony). At this point, you remember the experience and the image much more distinctly than the sudden two-second illusion that it was, and for which you were completely unprepared.
> 
> I


Pareidolia images relate to seeing faces, objects etc in cloud formations, ink blots, if you look long enough its possible to see The Man in the Moon. The figure we saw that night was standing half in the road, lit by full beam headlights, which makes your explanation seem even less likely than mine.
Bold Street in Liverpool where bookshops of 1996 change to 1950 clothes shops, both inside and out. That’s one of a hell of a Pareidolia image.

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## Pompey Bum

> The figure we saw that night was standing half in the road, lit by full beam headlights, which makes your explanation seem even less likely than mine.


Oh on the contrary, headlights at night create an even more likely scenario for a pareidolic figure. But I have no desire to convince you. As I said before, you're the one who needs to make meaning of your own experience. Once again I wish you all the best.

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## Carousel

There’s only one way to reach any kind of a definitive conclusion and that is to experience the phenomena yourself, then only to know what it isn’t’ not what it is.

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## YesNo

> My guess: any ONE SPECIFIC explanation for such an event is exceedingly UNLIKELY. There are thousands of possible explanations -- picking any one of them is merely making a wild guess. Obviously, the *more general the explanation* (there's a "*natural*" explanation, for example, as Pompey suggests, but without the specific details he suggests), the more likely it is to be at least somewhat correct.


I wonder what a "natural" explanation is. I think it involves explaining the experience (evidence) of ghosts as illusions. The goal of that explanation is to remove the evidence from consideration in determining what reality is about. The key point being to convince oneself that there was nothing _conscious_ out there that generated the experience, because the underlying "natural" belief system assumes that nothing conscious can be out there.

So, according to the "natural" explanation, when I saw and talked to my aunt around the time she died, there was no consciousness out there talking to me, but it was all in my mind. No doubt my mind (and I don't mean neurons) was involved in my experience, but how do I know that "natural" explanation is "more likely"? Maybe she was there. She seemed real to me.

The problem is this. Who is more delusional, the one who saw the ghost or the one who refused to believe that the ghost the other person saw was real?

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## Ecurb

> I wonder what a "natural" explanation is. I think it involves explaining the experience (evidence) of ghosts as illusions. The goal of that explanation is to remove the evidence from consideration in determining what reality is about. The key point being to convince oneself that there was nothing _conscious_ out there that generated the experience, because the underlying "natural" belief system assumes that nothing conscious can be out there.
> 
> So, according to the "natural" explanation, when I saw and talked to my aunt around the time she died, there was no consciousness out there talking to me, but it was all in my mind. No doubt my mind (and I don't mean neurons) was involved in my experience, but how do I know that "natural" explanation is "more likely"? Maybe she was there. She seemed real to me.
> 
> The problem is this. Who is more delusional, the one who saw the ghost or the one who refused to believe that the ghost the other person saw was real?


Well, ONE natural explanation to Carousel's experience was "Pareidolia". There are, doubtless, dozens of others. I'm not sure what constitutes a "natural explanation" to talking to one's dying aunt-- but if you knew she was dying, you might have been more likely to think about her, or dream about her, or day dream about her.

It's a well known fact (or at least a well-established rumor) that no space ships were sighted before the possibility of space travel was established. It's likely that people saw the same things they see today, but interpret them within a conceptual framework with which they feel comfortable. 

In general, the "evidence" is something you saw and heard -- to think of it as "evidence of ghosts" involves a conceptual framework that includes ghost stories. Without this framework, you might think of it as evidence of a hallucination, or evidence of something else. "Evidence" is always interpreted. My friend the sasquatch hunter claims he has seen a sasquatch (which is different, because nobody claims sasquatches are supernatural)). He saw it at night, peeking out from behind a tree, from about 50 yards away. Everyone knows that the woods at night are strange places, and we see dozens of things that disquiet us. If we are looking for sasquatches, we might see them.

Of course you don't know if the "natural explanation" is more likely than (what we now see as) a supernatural explanation. However, there are dozens of possible supernatural explanations, just as there are dozens of more natural explanations.

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## Ecurb

By way of clarification: dreams used to be considered "supernatural". Today, most people accept a more naturalistic explanation of dreams. The dreams are probably much the same as they were in the past; we just think about them in a different way.

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## Pompey Bum

> I wonder what a "natural" explanation is.


My understanding is that a natural explanation is one consistent with naturalism, which is the materialist philosophical view that everything that exists arises from nature phenomena that can be (or could be, given adequate technology) demonstrated to exist using strictly empirical criteria. (That is why Darwin is often referred to as a naturalist, as opposed to a botanist, which is what he actually did for a living).

Not every naturalistic hypothesis, however, implies acceptance of a strictly naturalist or materialist viewpoint. I am not a materialist, for example, but choose to exhaust naturalistic explanations for phenomena that are perceived by the physical senses (as opposed, say, to a vision, or dream, or experience of gnosis). I also believe in God, something for which that I have no empirical evidence whatsoever.




> I think it involves explaining the experience (evidence) of ghosts as illusions.


I suppose it could--or lies or heartfelt delusions. But again, not every naturalistic explanation arises from an exclusively naturalistic viewpoint. It would be wrong to tar all of those who don't believe in ghosts with the brush of exclusive materialism. 




> The goal of that explanation is to remove the evidence from consideration in determining what reality is about. The key point being to convince oneself that there was nothing conscious out there that generated the experience, because the underlying "natural" belief system assumes that nothing conscious can be out there.


At this point, I'm afraid you have lurched into a straw man argument. (It's really dicey to try to impute the motives of others). I certainly am not interested in "remov[ing] the evidence from consideration in determining what reality is about"--far from it! It does not follow that I do simply because I draw a distinction between sensory experience and gnostic experience. And it is frankly somewhat prejudiced to assume that all who may employ naturalistic hypotheses seek to do so. If I have misunderstood what you meant to say, then I apologize for that comment.




> So, according to the "natural" explanation, when I saw and talked to my aunt around the time she died, there was no consciousness out there talking to me, but it was all in my mind.


A strict naturalist would surely say something of the sort. Philosophical naturalism excludes the spiritual. You can take that up Carousel, our resident materialist, but leave me out of it. I am not going to defend a philosophy that I do not share.




> No doubt my mind (and I don't mean neurons) was involved in my experience, but how do I know that "natural" explanation is "more likely"? Maybe she was there. She seemed real to me.


Now you're talking. What makes you think that the _physical_ apparition of a ghostly revenant to your _physical_ senses is more significant than an experience of the mind? True, that experience would not demonstrable to others, but did your auntie come to talk to you so that you could bear witness to others? Or was something more personal going on? If it was the latter, then who cares what the materialists think? And if it was the former, then welcome to religion.  :Smile: 




> The problem is this. Who is more delusional, the one who saw the ghost or the one who refused to believe that the ghost the other person saw was real?


Well I never said either one was delusional, did I? An optical illusion is not a mental delusion, and if my reconstruction of the Romney Marsh incident is correct, there was nothing delusional about what Carousel experienced.

I'm awfully sorry to hear about your auntie, by the way. I meant to say that in an earlier post, but I forgot. It sounds like she was important to you. (My mom, who died when I was 29, puts her arms around me all the time, by the way  :Smile:  ). I'm also glad that Carousel and his wife were spared a serious accident. If it were me and my wife, I would consider that to have been the pertinent aspect of the experience. But we all must make our own meaning of our lives.

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## Ecurb

After my mother read "Treasure Island" to me as a young boy, I kept hearing Blind Pew's staff tap... tap... tapping down the street in front of my house. Does that count?

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## Pompey Bum

> After my mother read "Treasure Island" to me as a young boy, I kept hearing Blind Pew's staff tap... tap... tapping down the street in front of my house. Does that count?


No, no. That was psychosis.  :Smile:  (Even if I did sleep with garlic around my neck after reading Dracula at 12).

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## ladderandbucket

I've had a few dreams which seem to have contained premonitions of places which I would later visit, and of which I couldn't possibly have had any prior knowledge. 

The first time I had this experience I was convinced something awful was going to happen. In fact all these 'premonitions' have been quite mundane. 

I suppose it is possible that my mind is playing tricks on me, but my memory of the dreams has been very clear - I can remember dwelling on them before my real life experience - and the premonitory parts of the dream were often integral to the overall narrative. If my brain had fabricated these memories then it would mean that I can't trust anything that's going on in my head.

I guess in a contest between the laws of physics and my mental experience, physics holds the stronger position. But still, there's a lot of stuff we don't know yet. I think almost anything is possible.

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## YesNo

> Well, ONE natural explanation to Carousel's experience was "Pareidolia". There are, doubtless, dozens of others. I'm not sure what constitutes a "natural explanation" to talking to one's dying aunt-- but if you knew she was dying, you might have been more likely to think about her, or dream about her, or day dream about her.


In the case of my aunt, I didn't know she was dying. She moved to Phoenix many years previously from Indiana and I was a grad student in Maine. My brother and I lived with her for some months when we were under 10 years old and I did not want to see her again. She treated us OK. I just didn't feel welcome. I was not thinking of her at all and she was not someone I would have expected to appear to me.




> It's a well known fact (or at least a well-established rumor) that no space ships were sighted before the possibility of space travel was established. It's likely that people saw the same things they see today, but interpret them within a conceptual framework with which they feel comfortable.


Some people see "orbs" which are similar and are not related to space ships. I don't know much about them, but they make me think that space travel is not the cause of people seeing these bright, round things.




> In general, the "evidence" is something you saw and heard -- to think of it as "evidence of ghosts" involves a conceptual framework that includes ghost stories. Without this framework, you might think of it as evidence of a hallucination, or evidence of something else. "Evidence" is always interpreted. My friend the sasquatch hunter claims he has seen a sasquatch (which is different, because nobody claims sasquatches are supernatural)). He saw it at night, peeking out from behind a tree, from about 50 yards away. Everyone knows that the woods at night are strange places, and we see dozens of things that disquiet us. If we are looking for sasquatches, we might see them.


I think I agree. Evidence is evidence "for" something. If one sees a ghost, then that is evidence "for the existence of ghosts". To say the evidence is an hallucination is to try to discredit the evidence for the existence of ghosts.

But that brings up the point I was trying to make. Who is delusional, the one who saw the ghost or the one who refuses to accept the evidence for their existence because it does not agree with their framework of what reality should look like?

In the case of ghosts, too many people have seen them. Some people see them more often than others and so much so that they can market their skills as mediums.




> Of course you don't know if the "natural explanation" is more likely than (what we now see as) a supernatural explanation. However, there are dozens of possible supernatural explanations, just as there are dozens of more natural explanations.


My main point was that a "natural" explanation is one that does not involve consciousness. Natural explanations do not want to expand consciousness beyond what it has to accept because of our existences. A ghost is a form of consciousness. That is why it is rejected.

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## YesNo

> Not every naturalistic hypothesis, however, implies acceptance of a strictly naturalist or materialist viewpoint. I am not a materialist, for example, but choose to exhaust naturalistic explanations for phenomena that are perceived by the physical senses (as opposed, say, to a vision, or dream, or experience of gnosis). I also believe in God, something for which that I have no empirical evidence whatsoever.


I am not trying to make a theistic argument. One could accept other forms of consciousness without involving theism which would imply some transcendent (outside space and time) consciousness. I would use Thomas Nagel's panpsychism as an example of a non-theistic approach to expanding consciousness beyond ourselves.





> I suppose it could--or lies or heartfelt delusions. But again, not every naturalistic explanation arises from an exclusively naturalistic viewpoint. It would be wrong to tar all of those who don't believe in ghosts with the brush of exclusive materialism.


It is more of a challenge than a tarring. Many people have claimed to see ghosts. Some even claim to communicate in various ways with those who have died. After hearing these accounts, if one does not accept them, why not? The same would go for UFOs. Or Sasquatch.




> At this point, I'm afraid you have lurched into a straw man argument. (It's really dicey to try to impute the motives of others). I certainly am not interested in "remov[ing] the evidence from consideration in determining what reality is about"--far from it! It does not follow that I do simply because I draw a distinction between sensory experience and gnostic experience. And it is frankly somewhat prejudiced to assume that all who may employ naturalistic hypotheses seek to do so. If I have misunderstood what you meant to say, then I apologize for that comment.


I don't know what you mean by "gnostic" experience.




> A strict naturalist would surely say something of the sort. Philosophical naturalism excludes the spiritual. You can take that up Carousel, our resident materialist, but leave me out of it. I am not going to defend a philosophy that I do not share.


I think most of us are materialists, even those who are theists. Even myself. That is why I like these discussions. I want to become conscious of what I am assuming is true about reality in order to question it.




> Now you're talking. What makes you think that the _physical_ apparition of a ghostly revenant to your _physical_ senses is more significant than an experience of the mind? True, that experience would not demonstrable to others, but did your auntie come to talk to you so that you could bear witness to others? Or was something more personal going on? If it was the latter, then who cares what the materialists think? And if it was the former, then welcome to religion.


It was an experience of my mind. Just like looking at this computer is an experience of my mind.




> Well I never said either one was delusional, did I? An optical illusion is not a mental delusion, and if my reconstruction of the Romney Marsh incident is correct, there was nothing delusional about what Carousel experienced.


Perhaps the distinction is like this. Seeing a ghost may be an "illusion" if the experience were false. If the experience were true, then those denying that experience because their view of reality insists such forms of consciousness are impossible would be suffering from a "delusion". Their ideas of what are real block them from seeing reality. 




> I'm awfully sorry to hear about your auntie, by the way. I meant to say that in an earlier post, but I forgot. It sounds like she was important to you. (My mom, who died when I was 29, puts her arms around me all the time, by the way  ). I'm also glad that Carousel and his wife were spared a serious accident. If it were me and my wife, I would consider that to have been the pertinent aspect of the experience. But we all must make our own meaning of our lives.


The event happened decades ago. Thank you for your condolences, but I was not close to her. I don't know why she appeared.

----------


## Pompey Bum

> I've had a few dreams which seem to have contained premonitions of places which I would later visit, and of which I couldn't possibly have had any prior knowledge. 
> 
> The first time I had this experience I was convinced something awful was going to happen. In fact all these 'premonitions' have been quite mundane. 
> 
> I suppose it is possible that my mind is playing tricks on me, but my memory of the dreams has been very clear - I can remember dwelling on them before my real life experience - and the premonitory parts of the dream were often integral to the overall narrative. If my brain had fabricated these memories then it would mean that I can't trust anything that's going on in my head.


Yes, I've had dreams that foretold future events. The most remarkable of those required some interpretation, but the interpretation proved accurate in a very short time (unfortunately).




> I guess in a contest between the laws of physics and my mental experience, physics holds the stronger position. But still, there's a lot of stuff we don't know yet. I think almost anything is possible.


Perhaps. I have a tendency to keep the physical and the mental/spiritual in separate drawers. So if someone had a dream that produced the over-powering conviction that one's mother was terminally ill (as I did), and she was diagnosed with terminal-stage cancer within the month (as she was), I would prioritize a gnostic interpretation over a naturalistic one (although coincidence. which which I suppose would be the naturalistic explanation, would remain a possibility). On the other hand, If I perceived physical lights with my physical eyes in my physical back yard, (as I also did), then I would prioritize a naturalistic explanation for them, even if I did not know what caused them, and despite a dream on the same night in which a ghost crawled in bed with me. That's how I make meaning--at least so far.

But as I mentioned to yes/no, I am open minded to learning more about biocentrism, a theory proposed by Robert Lanza, the physician who pioneered stem cell science, that could change things. And just to clarify, I am open minded enough read Dr. Lanza's book, called Biocentrism: How Life and Consciousness are the Keys to Understanding the True Nature of the Universe, which I haven't read or even purchased yet. So I'm not advocating biocentrism. I may hate it as a theory--who knows?

At present, my understanding is that when Lanza's scientific reputation was at its height (he had gone from being a working class kid from Stoughton, Massachusetts to being called one of the three most important scientific thinkers alive by the New York Times), he proposed a radical paradigm shift in which physics would be removed from its now ascendant position and replaced with biology, correcting physics current "belief that the world has an objective observer-independent existence." Rather, he claimed, the physical universe is a product of consciousness, and not, as current physics contends, the other way around. 

On the surface, this sounds like mystical religion, but Lanza offers evidence for his claim, much apparently pertaining to paradoxes of physics. Some respected scientists got behind Lanza when he published--one even said something like, Yes, we've all sort of thought that, but no one's had the nerve to say it before. But the reaction of the entrenched physics community was, as you might imagine, explosively negative, and Lanza went from being a hero of science to--at least in the eyes of some--a traitor and a quack. Apparently no one likes to be told that his or her religion turns out to be full of sh*t. 

This is a synopsis of Biocentrism, from an NBC WEBSITE:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/31393080/n...ates-universe/

Let me emphasize that I do not fully understand Lanza's argument because I have not read his book yet (I have not even read the synopsis above, since I just found it). Also, as I told yes/no earlier, theoretical physics is not really my thing. Usually I stand back and let the Tyrannosaurus rexes (Tyrannosauri reges?) of science duke it out for themselves. But in this case, I may make an exception. I love a rebel, especially one from Massachusetts.  :Smile:

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## YesNo

> This is a synopsis of Biocentrism, from an NBC WEBSITE:
> 
> http://www.nbcnews.com/id/31393080/n...ates-universe/
> 
> Let me emphasize that I do not fully understand Lanza's argument because I have not read his book yet (I have not even read the synopsis above, since I just found it). Also, as I told yes/no earlier, theoretical physics is not really my thing. Usually I stand back and let the Tyrannosaurus rexes (Tyrannosauri reges?) of science duke it out for themselves. But in this case, I may make an exception. I love a rebel, especially one from Massachusetts.


I love rebels as well, even if I don't completely agree with them. I like Thomas Nagel, for example, and Rupert Sheldrake. Thanks for bringing Robert Lanza to my attention. 

Overall, I agree with what he has to say. Here would be one question that I have: If we create the universe by our individual observations, why do we see a similar universe as others do? Or, to phrase this differently, if the universe is our private dream, why does it sync so well with the private dreams of others around us?

George Berkeley uses this to justify the existence of a transcendent consciousness who keeps the universe consistent. I think Berkeley is right, but I don't know how Lanza deals with the problem of solipsism.

----------


## Pompey Bum

> I am not trying to make a theistic argument. One could accept other forms of consciousness without involving theism which would imply some transcendent (outside space and time) consciousness.


No, I didn't mean to suggest that you were. I was just using the case of my faith in God as a example of how a non-materialist can still employ naturalistic arguments. It doesn't make you an exclusive materialist.




> I would use Thomas Nagel's panpsychism as an example of a non-theistic approach to expanding consciousness beyond ourselves.


Okay, sure. Dr. Nagel himself might look out across his little faculty front yard at NYU one day, throw his hands up and cry out, "Oh the trash is all over the driveway! That damned corgi from next door must have been at it again!"--a perfectly naturalistic explanation that doesn't compromise his panpsychism in the least. (Personally I'd compliment him for not going straight for a poltergeist.  :Smile:  )




> Many people have claimed to see ghosts. Some even claim to communicate in various ways with those who have died. After hearing these accounts, if one does not accept them, why not? The same would go for UFOs. Or Sasquatch.


Because people can be mistaken about what they see, as the man who reported the first "flying saucer" later insisted he was. And people also lie, as the man responsible for the famous Loch Ness monster photograph later confessed to be doing; as the man responsible for the famous bigfoot video of my youth later confessed to be doing; and as the little girls who snookered Sir Arthur Conan Doyle into thinking that they hung out with fairies also later confessed to be doing.

If making a claim in itself constituted an established fact, then we could all go back to the days of King John's England where human rights are concerned. Jews would have horns and blacks would have tails just because someone said so. If a student claimed that a teacher had raped him or her in a satanic ritual with local parents, then that would just settle the matter. If white supremacist claimed that he had seen a black neighbor molesting his daughter, that would settle it, too. And if a rapist claimed that a victim had begged her to play along with a secret rape fantasy, that claim would be sufficient to exonerate him. 

You get the picture. A claim in itself does not establish a fact, especially when it is not otherwise substantiated (and sometimes when it is--there was photographic evidence for all the frauds I mentioned in the previous paragraph). And it doesn't matter how many people make the claim, how heartfelt their claims seem to be, or what their reputations are. Lots of people claimed that Jews had horns and blacks had tails (photographic evidence based on birth defects was even circulated for the latter claim). The Loch Ness photo hoax was perpetuated by a doctor, the man who actually took the Bigfoot (big?-)footage was innocent of the hoax and spent the rest of his life earnestly claiming that he was telling the truth (which he was--but the guy in the monkey suit wasn't). And the Cottingley fairies hoax was fronted by a beloved (and deluded) British author, and two innocent looking girls who just couldn't be lying. 

As I wrote the above paragraph, I kept thinking about the Salem/Danvers (Massachusetts) witch accusations of 1692-1693, in which 20 people, mostly women, some elderly or handicapped, were executed; while many more were imprisoned under inhuman conditions, because of the uncorroborated claims of a handful of teenage girls. The girls uttered strange sounds and contorted their bodies, claiming that the specters of those they were accusing of witchcraft were pinching them and pricking them with pins (even though the individuals were elsewhere). At first the girls went for local weirdos no one liked, then family enemies, and finally anyone they felt like destroying. Later, as adults, they confessed that they had concocted the entire humbug from the beginning. Then there is the blood libel against Jews, endless harmful stereotypes of various ethnic groups (and women), and the terrors of political denunciations. Not every claim is harmless, and a degree of skepticism, it seems to me, is a healthy thing.




> I don't know what you mean by "gnostic" experience.


Oh sorry. When I use that term, at least in this context, I mean a profound experience of knowledge unmediated by normal rational thought or language. It's hard to describe if you haven't experienced it yourself, but it's what rational thought or language makes an attempt to articulate. Gnostic experience a direct connection--that's the best way I can describe it. It's only happened to me three (or maybe four) times: when I was 29, when I was around 7, when I was probably around 5, and possibly during my baptism, although it is very difficult to be sure about the last one. The part of the brain that stores memory isn't very well developed in infancy (Freud turns out to have been a total wanker), although I was not actually baptized until I was 3. I retain the experience, though.




> I think most of us are materialists, even those who are theists. Even myself. That is why I like these discussions. I want to become conscious of what I am assuming is true about reality in order to question it.


Thanks. I like these discussions, too. But when I said materialist, I meant an exclusive materialist--a naturalist. You are not one of those and neither am I.




> It was an experience of my mind. Just like looking at this computer is an experience of my mind.


Maybe Lanza can convince me. 




> Perhaps the distinction is like this. Seeing a ghost may be an "illusion" if the experience were false.


It would be an illusion if it was false because it was an illusion; it would be a delusion (or at least a mistake) if the illusion were taken for real; and it would be a lie if the illusion were seen through but nevertheless inspired a false claim, or if there was no illusion at all, just a fabrication. 




> If the experience were true, then those denying that experience _because_ their view of reality insists such forms of consciousness are impossible would be suffering from a "delusion".


Or at least a mistake--if it were true about the ghost. But in that case it would also be a mistake for those who denied the experience for reasons other than an insistence that "such forms of consciousness are impossible"--those, for example, did not credit the testimony, but might have been convinced by more compelling evidence. They would not be deluded--just skeptical.




> Their ideas of what are real block them from seeing reality.


But that only works, of course, where "reality" is consistent with their _actually being a ghost._ How would you know that the claim was true? (You sure sound like a theist to me!  :Smile:  )

And again, this is a tautology and gets us nowhere. It just means that those who insist that such forms of consciousness are impossible have ideas that preclude such ideas. A is A. We already knew that.




> The event happened decades ago. Thank you for your condolences, but I was not close to her. I don't know why she appeared.


You're welcome. And yes, I remember now that you said something of the sort earlier. Still it must have been meaningful for you as a kind of--apology? You would think they'd be lined up and down the streets to talk to me.  :Smile:

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## Carousel

I once had similar convictions until an encounter changed my mind, then my self taught explanations seemed to fit no explanation at all.

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## YesNo

> Because people can be mistaken about what they see, as the man who reported the first "flying saucer" later insisted he was. And people also lie, as the man responsible for the famous Loch Ness monster photograph later confessed to be doing; as the man responsible for the famous bigfoot video of my youth later confessed to be doing; and as the little girls who snookered Sir Arthur Conan Doyle into thinking that they hung out with fairies also later confessed to be doing.
> 
> If making a claim in itself constituted an established fact, then we could all go back to the days of King John's England where human rights are concerned. Jews would have horns and blacks would have tails just because someone said so. If a student claimed that a teacher had raped him or her in a satanic ritual with local parents, then that would just settle the matter. If white supremacist claimed that he had seen a black neighbor molesting his daughter, that would settle it, too. And if a rapist claimed that a victim had begged her to play along with a secret rape fantasy, that claim would be sufficient to exonerate him. 
> 
> You get the picture. A claim in itself does not establish a fact, especially when it is not otherwise substantiated (and sometimes when it is--there was photographic evidence for all the frauds I mentioned in the previous paragraph). And it doesn't matter how many people make the claim, how heartfelt their claim seems, or what their reputation may be. Lots of people claimed that Jews had horns and blacks had tails (photographic evidence based on birth defects was even circulated for the latter claim). The Loch Ness photo hoax was perpetuated by a doctor, the man who actually took the Bigfoot (big?-)footage was innocent of the hoax and spent the rest of his life earnestly claiming that he was telling the truth (which he was--but the guy in the monkey suit wasn't). And the Cottingly fairies hoax was fronted by a beloved (and deluded) British author, and two innocent looking girls who just couldn't be lying. 
> 
> As I wrote the above paragraph, I kept thinking about the Salem/Danvers (Massachusetts) witch accusations of 1692-1693, in which 20 people, mostly women, and some elderly or handicapped, were executed; while many more were imprisoned under inhuman conditions, because of the uncorroborated claims of a handful of teenage girls. The girls uttered strange sounds and contorted their bodies, claiming that the specters of those they were accusing of witchcraft were pinching them and pricking them with pins (even though the individuals were elsewhere). At first the girls went for local weirdos no one liked, then family enemies, and finally anyone they felt like destroying. Later, as adults, they confessed that they had concocted the entire humbug from the beginning. Then there is the blood libel against Jews, endless harmful stereotypes of various ethnic groups (and women), and the terrors of political denunciations. Not every claim is harmless, and a degree of skepticism, it seems to me, is a healthy thing.


People can be mistaken or deceitful and skepticism has its place.





> Oh sorry. When I use that term, at least in this context, I mean a profound experience of knowledge unmediated by normal rational thought language. It's hard to describe if you haven't experienced it yourself, but it's what rational thought or language makes an attempt to articulate. Gnostic experience a direct connection--that's the best way I can describe it. It's only happened to me three (or maybe four times): when I was 29, when I was around 7, when I was probably around 5, and possibly during my baptism, although it is very difficult to be sure about the last one. The part of the brain that stores memory isn't very well developed in infancy (Freud turns out to have been a total wanker), although I was not actually baptized until I was 3. I retain the experience, though.


I don't think I've ever had a gnostic experience. 




> Thanks. I like these discussions, too. But when I said materialist, I meant an exclusive materialist--a naturalist. You are not one of those and neither am I.


You sound more like a Cartesian dualist. I would be an idealist like George Berkeley. 

After quantum physics and relativity sunk in, other philosophies of mind tried to save what they could of materialism by questioning reductionism or adding mind to matter in some way. I see Nagel's attempt as one of these. I don't think it works, but I may not understand it.

One thing to note is that if materialism is gone so is dualism since it accepts materialism as part of the explanation.




> But that only works, of course, where "reality" is consistent with their _actually being a ghost._ How would you know that the claim was true? (You sure sound like a theist to me!  )


I would be a generic panentheist. Examples of panentheism would be traditional judeo-christo-islamic-hindu religions. Probably more ancient religions were panentheistic as well. I don't have a favorite one. They all work for me.

I think one can show that such a theism is correct using Berkeley's arguments which received scientific confirmation by relativity and quantum physics.


EDIT: I found a copy of Lanza's "Biocentrcism". I like this line from page 4: "The universe is like a watch that somehow wound itself and that, allowing for a degree of quantum randomness, will unwind in a semi-predictable way." I agree with him that that watch metaphor is getting tiring.

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## Pompey Bum

> You sound more like a Cartesian dualist.





> So, according to the "natural" explanation, when I saw and talked to my aunt around the time she died, there was no consciousness out there talking to me, but it was all in my mind. *No doubt my mind (and I don't mean neurons) was involved in my experience*, but how do I know that "natural" explanation is "more likely"?


Same church, different pew?  :Smile: 




> I would be an idealist like George Berkeley.


Berkeley's views are immaterial!  :Smile:  

Just kidding. Yes, I am a gnostic dualist and you are a subjective idealist. But didn't Berkeley believe that spirits cannot be perceived by us except through their effect, upon inward reflection, on our subject consciousness (our ideas)? And wasn't that more or less what I was saying about your auntie?




> After quantum physics and relativity sunk in, other philosophies of mind tried to save what they could of materialism by questioning reductionism or adding mind to matter in some way. I see Nagel's attempt as one of these. I don't think it works, but I may not understand it.


All I know about Nagel is that he teaches at NYU. So I told you about Lanza and you told me about Nagel. Thank you. Even my nieces aren't going to do that well for Christmas. 




> One thing to note is that if materialism is gone so is dualism since it accepts materialism as part of the explanation.


Perhaps, but I don't think we're quite there yet. As religious radicals go, I guess that makes me a moderate. Faith is a fine invention for gentlemen who see/But microscopes are prudent in an emergency. I don't know how Lanza handles it, but I don't think Berkeley denied the existence of physical objects, just their significance to metaphysics. That is not necessarily inconsistent with my sort of dualism (the gnostic Christian variety). They can throw you to the lions, break you on the wheel, torture you for years. That is all real, and it matters terribly for now, but in the much larger picture it shrinks to insignificance. 

That is an non-Orthodox but still faith-oriented position; but the truth is that the secular/materialist view isn't very different. With the certain obliteration of each human being and the ultimate extinction of humankind, human suffering and death also shrink to insignificance in the 5 billion years until the sun expands. And think of the human suffering and death (and hopes and joys) that are lost in the millions of years of prehistory that constitute more than 90% of human experience on this planet.

That's an aside, I suppose. Destroy materialism ("no one will miss it," to take Berkeley a little out of context), and we can talk about abandoning dualism.  :Smile: 




> I would be a generic panentheist.


Interesting. So you would look for theos pervading the matter of the universe where I would look for zoe (psyche?) imprisoned in the matter--or perhaps just at school for a term. How do you reconcile that position with subjective idealism? If matter doesn't exist in a really significant way, then would divinity really pervade it? Perhaps we'll both need a new religion if materialism goes the way of lava lamps and the bustle.  :Smile: 




> Examples of panentheism would be traditional judeo-christo-islamic-hindu religions.


Well, traditional Christianity is a problematic concept (to say the least); so is traditional Judaism. I don't really know enough about Islam or Hindu religions to offer much of an opinion. (In the case of Hinduism, I assume you are referring to Brahman--but is that a case of panentheism or pantheism?)




> Probably more ancient religions were panentheistic as well. I don't have a favorite one. They all work for me.


I suppose it depends what you consider ancient. Christian traditions that emphasized a sharp distinction between the Creator and the created (as in some aspects Eastern Orthodoxy) were panentheistic. It was supposed to be part of the whole Nicene package, but Christian theologians were always trying to fudge the difference, especially in the West where the Church (Catholic or Reformed) became hyper-involved in secular affairs. Some of the pre-Nicene Christian traditions had panentheistic elements, too, but our knowledge of them is limited because the Nicene Christians torched most of their writings. Bahai is pretty panentheistic, but then again it's pretty modern. Were you thinking of any ancient religions in particular?




> I think one can show that such a theism is correct using Berkeley's arguments which received scientific confirmation by relativity and quantum physics.





> George Berkeley uses this to justify the existence of a transcendent consciousness who keeps the universe consistent. I think Berkeley is right, but I don't know how Lanza deals with the problem of solipsism.


I'd be interested to hear that argument. My understanding is that Berkeley attempted to solve the problem you asked about Lanza's ideas, namely:




> If we create the universe by our individual observations, why do we see a similar universe as others do? Or, to phrase this differently, if the universe is our private dream, why does it sync so well with the private dreams of others around us?


...and suggested that because the other minds/spirits that we perceive through their effects on us show such a commonality of purpose that we are drawn to recognize what you have called a "transcendent consciousness," which is in some way their source. But I don't know Berkeley nearly as well as I should (many universes have imploded since I studied him), so I probably have it wrong. How would you make an argument for theism using Berkeley/Quantum?

----------


## YesNo

> Same church, different pew?


Yeah, that's one way of putting it. 




> Just kidding. Yes, I am a gnostic dualist and you are a subjective idealist. But didn't Berkeley believe that spirits cannot be perceived by us except through their effect, upon inward reflection, on our subject consciousness (our ideas)? And wasn't that more or less what I was saying about your auntie?


The spirits are what manifest the world around us when we aren't doing it ourselves.





> All I know about Nagel is that he teaches at NYU. So I told you about Lanza and you told me about Nagel. Thank you. Even my nieces aren't going to do that well for Christmas.


I've read over half of Lanza's book and I think Rupert Sheldrake may be more relevant, not that Lanza's book isn't refreshing in its own way.




> Perhaps, but I don't think we're quite there yet. As religious radicals go, I guess that makes moderate. Faith is a fine invention for gentlemen who see/But microscopes are prudent in an emergency. I don't know how Lanza handles it, but I don't think Berkeley. Denied the existence of physical objects, just their significance to metaphysics. That is not necessarily inconsistent with my sort of dualism (the gnostic Christian variety). They can throw you to the lions, break you on the wheel, torture you for years. That is all real, and it matters terribly for now, but in the much larger picture it shrinks to insignificance.


The only dualism that would be undermined if materialism were discredited is Cartesian dualism: we have minds; everything else is a materialistic machine--at least that is how I see that form of dualism.




> That is an non-Orthodox but still faith-oriented position; but the truth is that the secular/materialist view isn't very different. With the certain obliteration of each human being and the ultimate extinction of humankind, human suffering and death also shrink to insignificance in the 5 billion years until the sun expands. And think of the human suffering and death (and hopes and joys) that are lost in the millions of years of prehistory that constitute more than 90% of human experience on this planet.
> 
> That's an aside, I suppose. Destroy materialism ("no one will miss it," to take Berkeley a little out of context), and we can talk about abandoning dualism.


For Berkeley, the world is out there. It's real. It's just not there because of some unconscious material substance that gives it existence, but it exists as the dream of a divinity who keeps it going. If there were no mind making it up, it would not exist.




> Interesting. So you would look for theos pervading the matter of the universe where I would look for zoe (psyche?) imprisoned in the matter--or perhaps just at school for a term. How do you reconcile that position with subjective idealism? If matter doesn't exist in a really significant way, then would divinity really pervade it? Perhaps we'll both need a new religion if materialism goes the way of lava lamps and the bustle.


If zoe is imprisioned in unconscious matter, then we would have a difference of opinion. My idealism is not subjective. The world is out there for everyone to enjoy or run experiments on, if that suits them.





> Well, traditional Christianity is a problematic concept (to say the least); so is traditional Judaism. I don't really know enough about Islam or Hindu religions to offer much of an opinion. (In the case of Hinduism, I assume you are referring to Brahman--but is that a case of panentheism or pantheism?)


I don't know that much about all of these religions, but I don't want to exclude anyone. I think of those Hindu deities like I think of Catholic saints or angels. Reciting a mantra to Saraswati would be like reciting a prayer to Saint Francis, or paying homage to a Greek muse.




> I suppose it depends what you consider ancient. Christian traditions that emphasized a sharp distinction between the Creator and the created (as in some aspects Eastern Orthodoxy) were panentheistic. It was supposed to be part of the whole Nicene package, but Christian theologians were always trying to fudge the difference, especially in the West where the Church (Catholic or Reformed) became hyper-involved in secular affairs. Some of the pre-Nicene Christian traditions had panentheistic elements, too, but our knowledge of them is limited because the Nicene Christians torched most of their writings. Bahai is pretty panentheistic, but then again it's pretty modern. Were you thinking of any ancient religions in particular?


I heard that about Eastern Orthodoxy as well. I wasn't thinking of any ancient religion in particular. 




> How would you make an argument for theism using Berkeley/Quantum?


I would use Berkeley's observation that everything we perceive is an "idea" or perception that we have. It requires a mind to perceive. There is nothing unconscious underlying what we perceive since only a mind can experience something. 

Locke would have said that there is something out there that is unconscious that gives it properties such as extension or length that are independent of any observer. Einstein later said that such extension depends on our frame of reference, so even that is part of a mind's experience. Furthermore with quantum physics, there is no underlying material substance since we can choose to observe quantum stuff and get two contradictory conclusions about what it was prior to the observation: was it a particle or a wave? 

Berkeley insists the world is out there. That is what drives his conclusion that there must be some mind that manifests the world like we would manifest a dream state. We don't manifest the universe so that it stays consistent even when we are not paying attention to it. Since the universe is there, there must be a Mind manifesting it.

That's the argument as I understand it. Berkeley had the whole thing in place hundreds of years ago. Einstein confirmed that things like extension are really relative and not part of the unobserved object. Quantum physics confirmed that there is no unconscious material substance. The only question that remains is whether the world is really out there. If it is, then Berkeley's conclusion of the existence of a deity that dreams that world follows. If it is not, it probably doesn't matter.

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## YesNo

I finished Lanza's "Biocentricism". Although I liked the way he presented the double slit experiments, his position appears to be a form of solipsism. I will have to keep it in mind as an example of how some people might interpret the quantum enigmas.

I would be looking for something more substantial. The universe is real. It is just not made out of some unconscious material substance.

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## Pompey Bum

> I've read over half of Lanza's book and I think Rupert Sheldrake may be more relevant, not that Lanza's book isn't refreshing in its own way.


I've looked over the NBC synopsis, but I probably won't buy the book until my next big Amazon haul in January (after my brothers' mechanical but appreciated forking over of their Christmas gift cards). One of the reasons I haven't bought Biocentrism until now is that it's only 200 pages. I budget my book money (or else I'd spend everything), and I sometimes feel--rationally or not--that I'm wasting my money on a book that short. (Okay, I'm a miser).

I _have_ dug out good ol' volume 37 of The Harvard Classics series, though (well, the cyber version), which gives a representative sampling of Berkeley, Locke, and Hume. It's been a lot of fun to thumb through it and remember some of this stuff.




> The only dualism that would be undermined if materialism were discredited is Cartesian dualism: we have minds; everything else is a materialistic machine--at least that is how I see that form of dualism.


Thanks. I had a classical education, so I tend to see everything through the lens of the ancient world. The distinction between Cartesian dualism and some parts of Stoicism sometimes gets a little hazy to me. (I figured Descartes just got fed up with religious baggage during the Thirty Years War and tried to produce a "cleaner" version of what Augustine had Christianized). But your explanation helps.




> For Berkeley, the world is out there. It's real. It's just not there because of some unconscious material substance that gives it existence, but it exists as the dream of a divinity who keeps it going. If there were no mind making it up, it would not exist.


Sounds Hindu. But who dreams the dreamer? Is that our job? Or is it turtles right on down.  :Smile: 




> I don't know that much about all of these religions, but I don't want to exclude anyone. I think of those Hindu deities like I think of Catholic saints or angels. Reciting a mantra to Saraswati would be like reciting a prayer to Saint Francis, or paying homage to a Greek muse.


I suppose one could do that to some extent, although a more in-depth look would reveal some limits. Duty, for example, is a major ethical component of Hinduism, including rather strict attention to ritual as a matter of piety. So a Hindu prayer to Saraswati (depending obviously on the context) might be somewhat similar to an Ave Maria or Pater Noster being liturgically recited, but it probably wouldn't have much in common with the spontaneous prayers favored by many Protestant denominations; and it would be a world away from Homer or Hesiod inviting the Muse to possess their bodies. (They definitely told us not to do that sort of thing in confirmation class).  :Smile: 




> If zoe is imprisioned in unconscious matter, then we would have a difference of opinion.


And that's because the matter is produced by subject consciousnesses or by an all-pervasive Universal Mind when the subject consciousnesses are busy? 

I don't know if I buy that completely, but I do feel I understand it better now. For one thing, I will insist that Divinity pervading matter and matter itself are not the same thing (in other words, I can accept panentheism but not pantheism). You seem to agree by your use of the term "panentheism," but I'm unclear whether you cross the line in asserting:




> The spirits are what manifest the world around us when we aren't doing it ourselves.


For the sake of clarification:

1) Are you suggesting that subject consciousnesses ("the spirits") and the Universal Mind share a nature (_physis_)? (In other words, is the soul a spark of the Divine?) 

2) Are you suggesting that the subject consciousnesses and the Universal Mind (or just the Universal Mind) and physical matter share a nature (_physis_)? In other words, is the Divine not only everywhere and beyond (panentheism) but every_thing_ and beyond as well?

I may not object if the answer to the first question is yes. That's Valentinian gnosticism, more or less, and I am at least open to it. I do suspect that you (and Berkeley) are venturing a bit into the realm of speculative theology (I'm one to talk), but I don't reject the notion per se (as Orthodox Christians certainly would do).

But I get off the boat if the answer to the second question is yes. That is not because of religious doctrine (which I make up as I go along), nor from any intolerance of pantheists, but because pantheism ignores the problem of evil. Soldiers rape women because (in the view of Scottish historian and Harvard professor Niall Ferguson) of a procreative instinct produced by the particular evolution of the Homo genus. Cells reproduce incorrectly and children get cancer of their blood and kidneys. American Cowbirds prey on the maternal instinct of other birds by laying eggs in their nests, then flying off. Their offspring kill the birds real chicks, then remain, parasite-like, through their early adulthoods, while the deluded mothers instinctively bring them food. One day, they just fly off, too. A species of wasp lays it's eggs in the bodies of caterpillars. When the larva hatch, they devour their foster mothers from the inside out. Infectious diseases prey on children and the elderly first, clearing the way for the physically fit. Homo antecessor, the first known human beings in Europe, cannibalized the children and young teenagers of rival bands, despite an abundance of food that they were also accessing. Chimps do the same thing today. All life must kill (or have someone else kill) or starve. As Darwin famously reflected: "What a book a devil's chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering, low, and horribly cruel works of nature." And as Hitler commented to Eva Braun, "Nature is cruel so I must be cruel."

That is not my God, Yes/No. The God of Love and Justice is not identifiable with the physics and chemistry that produce the biology of natural selection, and the trophic pyramid. That god may or may not be the ruling power of the material cosmos (I am inclined to think the former), but it is not Divinity. God's presence may be limitless (at least _in potentia_) but that does not mean that all things are God.




> I heard that about Eastern Orthodoxy as well.


Well even in the West making the "error" of worshipping the created rather than the Creator would have got you burned at the stake at various times in history. As a heretic Christian myself (to talk the Orthodox talk), it's not important to me as a point of dogma, but as a point of religious scruple, the distinction is the reason I am able to share some aspects of my wife's Buddhism with her, but almost none of my brother-in-law's animistic Taoism with him (despite my fondness for the pre-Buddhist Sun Wukong as a literary metaphor; and Sun Wukong in general--he's a hoot!) The same goes for all nature religions: sometimes cool, sometimes enchanting, but not for real, not for me.




> I would use Berkeley's observation that everything we perceive is an "idea" or perception that we have. It requires a mind to perceive. There is nothing unconscious underlying what we perceive since only a mind can experience something.


Okay. I'll spare you objections about the unconscious mind since we've already established that Freud was a total wanker.  :Smile:  But your religious metaphor of Divinity dreaming does seem a little strange in this context. (Can't even God get some shy eye?  :Smile:  ) But okay, I'm following you so far.




> Locke would have said that there is something out there that is unconscious that gives it properties such as extension or length that are independent of any observer. Einstein later said that such extension depends on our frame of reference, so even that is part of a mind's experience. Furthermore with quantum physics, there is no underlying material substance since we can choose to observe quantum stuff and get two contradictory conclusions about what it was prior to the observation: was it a particle or a wave?
> 
> Berkeley insists the world is out there. That is what drives his conclusion that there must be some mind that manifests the world like we would manifest a dream state. We don't manifest the universe so that it stays consistent even when we are not paying attention to it. Since the universe is there, there must be a Mind manifesting it.


An unconscious mind, right? A dreaming mind. God is asleep at the wheel. You know, theologically that _would_ explain a lot.  :Smile:  I kind of like it, actually. God's not dead, he's just nodded off.  :Smile: 




> That's the argument as I understand it. Berkeley had the whole thing in place hundreds of years ago. Einstein confirmed that things like extension are really relative and not part of the unobserved object. Quantum physics confirmed that there is no unconscious material substance. The only question that remains is whether the world is really out there. If it is, then Berkeley's conclusion of the existence of a deity that dreams that world follows. If it is not, it probably doesn't matter.


Thank you. I still have concerns about the problem of evil, and I am still a gnostic dualist, but I am (seriously) delighted to hear that the lonely redoubt of my faith may receive reinforcements from some of those who lately besieged it. You have convinced me that God exists. Congratulations!  :Smile:

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## YesNo

> I've looked over the NBC synopsis, but I probably won't buy the book until my next big Amazon haul in January (after my brothers' mechanical but appreciated forking over of their Christmas gift cards). One of the reasons I haven't bought Biocentrism until now is that it's only 200 pages. I budget my book money (or else I'd spend everything), and I sometimes feel--rationally or not--that I'm wasting my money on a book that short. (Okay, I'm a miser).


It is probably not worth buying the book. I think the point is his claim that biology needs to be primary in any theory of everything and physics is not able to incorporate consciousness into its unconscious particle and waves. I agree with that, but I would like to know how biocentricism works any better rather than just an account that physics doesn't work. 

The biologist's reduction of everything to genes and neurons doesn't work either. There are too many things genes and neurons can't account for such as the paranormal phenomena we are discussing in this thread. Specifically, when we look at someone, there is clearly stuff happening in our brain, but does it stop there? Some people get a sense that they are being watched. What causes that? To explain that there must exist not only the waves coming into our brains, but a wave going back out from our minds associated with our intentionality (consciousness). 

This wave going back out would likely be rejected by someone like Lanza, but if he insists that physics must accept consciousness, whatever replaces physics must accept telepathic phenomena associated with consciousness.

I found a copy in one of the local libraries I can borrow from. This site may be adequate to understanding biocentricism, but I haven't looked at all the videos: http://www.robertlanzabiocentrism.com/




> I _have_ dug out good ol' volume 37 of The Harvard Classics series, though (well, the cyber version), which gives a representative sampling of Berkeley, Locke, and Hume. It's been a lot of fun to thumb through it and remember some of this stuff.


I have some copies of these works also, but most of them are freely downloadable to a Kindle app. 




> Thanks. I had a classical education, so I tend to see everything through the lens of the ancient world. The distinction between Cartesian dualism and some parts of Stoicism sometimes gets a little hazy to me. (I figured Descartes just got fed up with religious baggage during the Thirty Years War and tried to produce a "cleaner" version of what Augustine had Christianized). But your explanation helps.


You probably know more about this than I do. 





> Sounds Hindu. But who dreams the dreamer? Is that our job? Or is it turtles right on down.


I saw the reference to dreaming in Berkeley and so used the idea. Once one has an eternal dreamer there is no need to go further. If the universe were eternal there would be no need to question what happened before it or to bring up a deity. However, the universe does not appear to be eternal so the whole question of what started it comes up.





> I suppose one could do that to some extent, although a more in-depth look would reveal some limits. Duty, for example, is a major ethical component of Hinduism, including rather strict attention to ritual as a matter of piety. So a Hindu prayer to Saraswati (depending obviously on the context) might be somewhat similar to an Ave Maria or Pater Noster being liturgically recited, but it probably wouldn't have much in common with the spontaneous prayers favored by many Protestant denominations; and it would be a world away from Homer or Hesiod inviting the Muse to possess their bodies. (They definitely told us not to do that sort of thing in confirmation class).


There probably are many differences between these religions. I don't understand most of them. If one is in a particular religion, one should follow the practices of that religion, however, I think people in various different religions may be just as well off. They have a different cultural perspective.





> And that's because the matter is produced by subject consciousnesses or by an all-pervasive Universal Mind when the subject consciousnesses are busy?


That's how I see it. Now if the stuff we see is not really out there, then one could have solipsism because only my mind matters and you and I and everyone else would be "one" creating the world. I think that is what Lanza tries to argue, but it gets too mystical for me although I agree with a lot that he has to say.




> I don't know if I buy that completely, but I do feel I understand it better now. For one thing, I will insist that Divinity pervading matter and matter itself are not the same thing (in other words, I can accept panentheism but not pantheism). You seem to agree by your use of the term "panentheism," but I'm unclear whether you cross the line in asserting:
> 
> 
> 
> For the sake of clarification:
> 
> 1) Are you suggesting that subject consciousnesses ("the spirits") and the Universal Mind share a nature (_physis_)? (In other words, is the soul a spark of the Divine?) 
> 
> 2) Are you suggesting that the subject consciousnesses and the Universal Mind (or just the Universal Mind) and physical matter share a nature (_physis_)? In other words, is the Divine not only everywhere and beyond (panentheism) but every_thing_ and beyond as well?
> ...


I don't accept pantheism either. It seems like you have a better understanding of the consequences of these positions.

For (2), I see there being forms of consciousness that have enough freedom to mess things up. That is where the evil comes from. Ultimately, the universe and the Universal Mind are good. My assumptions are (a) some freedom exists, (b) the universe is good and (c) the Universal Mind is good and personal.





> Well even in the West making the "error" of worshipping the created rather than the Creator would have got you burned at the stake at various times in history. As a heretic Christian myself (to talk the Orthodox talk), it's not important to me as a point of dogma, but as a point of religious scruple, the distinction is the reason I am able to share some aspects of my wife's Buddhism with her, but almost none of my brother-in-law's animistic Taoism with him (despite my fondness for the pre-Buddhist Sun Wukong as a literary metaphor; and Sun Wukong in general--he's a hoot!) The same goes for all nature religions: sometimes cool, sometimes enchanting, but not for real, not for me.


I read a good part of _Journey to the West_. My favorite chapter is the one telling of Sun Wukong standing in God's palm claiming he can escape.





> Okay. I'll spare you objections about the unconscious mind since we've already established that Freud was a total wanker.  But your religious metaphor of Divinity dreaming does seem a little strange in this context. (Can't even God get some shy eye?  ) But okay, I'm following you so far.
> 
> 
> An unconscious mind, right? A dreaming mind. God is asleep at the wheel. You know, theologically that _would_ explain a lot.  I kind of like it, actually. God's not dead, he's just nodded off.


I don't think Mind can be unconscious. Our minds, limited by our bodies' abilities to make us aware, just lack full awareness of what we know.




> Thank you. I still have concerns about the problem of evil, and I am still a gnostic dualist, but I am (seriously) delighted to hear that the lonely redoubt of my faith may receive reinforcements from some of those who lately besieged it. You have convinced me that God exists. Congratulations!


I don't see any way around the existence of God. I don't know much about the various religious positions people have. I assume too quickly they are all the same.

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## Pompey Bum

> I saw the reference to dreaming in Berkeley and so used the idea.


As I said before, I am no expert on Hinduism, but the dreaming deity sounds like Lord Vishnu, who dreams the universe while sleeping on the Cosmic Sea. Actually, I think he is lying on a snake on the Cosmic Sea, although where the snake, or the Cosmic Sea, or Lord Vishnu came from, I couldn't say.




> Once one has an eternal dreamer there is no need to go further. If the universe were eternal there would be no need to question what happened before it or to bring up a deity. However, the universe does not appear to be eternal so the whole question of what started it comes up.


There arises the question of we know that the Universal Mind is eternal and uncreated. As far as I can see that is a first principle, and a matter of faith. Another question is whether this Mind actually created the material universe in the process of starting things up, or whether that was secondary (and inferior) to the creation of life/consciousness. My point about the problem of evil is that the material universe seems like an awfully flawed and nasty thing to expect from an all-good God. If it's really that bad, then maybe it is the product of a lesser agency, which set things in motion, warts and all. Perhaps it was created by a blind, selfish demiurge (as the Sethian gnostics believed), or by a big, dumb screw-up (as the Valentinian gnostics thought). Orthodox Christians (at least the ones who know their own theology), will tell you that _o Christos_ made the material world. But when you consider what sort of a world that really is, it would make a lot more sense for them to say that _o satan_ was the creator of matter and the God of Love and Justice was the author of life/consciousness--the existential predicament of our experience being that matter has imprisoned life, and the Sotorological significance being that life can be liberated. Or maybe there's another answer.




> For (2), I see there being forms of consciousness that have enough freedom to mess things up. That is where the evil comes from. Ultimately, the universe and the Universal Mind are good.


Right, which is pretty consistent with my last paragraph--whatever the mythopoetic trappings. Maybe you're more of a gnostic dualist than you know.  :Smile: 




> My assumptions are (a) some freedom exists, (b) the universe is good and (c) the Universal Mind is good and personal.


I agree with you about freedom; I believe that the Universal Mind is good (but the jury is still out for me on the material aspect of the Universe); and I have faith in the personal quality of God. 2.5 out of three. Maybe we are in the same pew after all.  :Smile: 




> I read a good part of _Journey to the West_. My favorite chapter is the one telling of Sun Wukong standing in God's palm claiming he can escape.


Yes, and peeing on his fingers and writing graffiti. Only it's not God. It's the Buddha of the Western Heaven, depicted as wiser, holier, and more powerful than the Taoist/Animist "God," the Jade Emperor--whose ally he is. That strange arrangement comes from the Doctrine of the Three Ways, a traditional attempt to harmonize the materialism of Taoism/animism, the immaterialism of Buddhism, and ethics of Confucianism. It's an important aspect of later Chinese culture (including Chinese-American culture), but in terms of our discussion, it is a marriage of things that really don't belong together, at least for Taoism and Buddhism, at least for me.

But that doesn't effect my enjoyment of Journey to the West at all. The scene you mentioned comes at the end of Sun Wukong's war with Heaven, which I see as a metaphor for the human experience of growing up. Mao tried to use it as a symbol of his murderous Cultural Revolution. And others have pointed out similarities with the story of the revolt of Satan. But the author, in my opinion, was talking about something called "monkey mind," (in effect, immaturity, but it's so much better than that when Sun Wukong does it). Monkey mind is one of the phases or stumbling blocks that a Buddhist strives to overcome in the course of a lifetime. Ironically, that is why the character is funnier before his conversion to Buddhism than afterwards, at least in my opinion.

Oh well, I'm blithering again. I wrote you a piece of doggerel about freedom and evil in Paul's poetry thread. Monkey mind is still a problem for some of us.  :Smile:

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## YesNo

> As I said before, I am no expert on Hinduism, but the dreaming deity sounds like Lord Vishnu, who dreams the universe while sleeping on the Cosmic Sea. Actually, I think he is lying on a snake on the Cosmic Sea, although where the snake, or the Cosmic Sea, or Lord Vishnu came from, I couldn't say.


I didn't know that Vishnu dreamed the universe, but I don't know much about Hinduism. I have read Sally Kempton's Awakening Shakti which gave me a perspective on the Hindu Goddesses.




> There arises the question of we know that the Universal Mind is eternal and uncreated. As far as I can see that is a first principle, and a matter of faith.


Yes, one would have to assume the Mind sustaining the world is eternal.




> Another question is whether this Mind actually created the material universe in the process of starting things up, or whether that was secondary (and inferior) to the creation of life/consciousness. My point about the problem of evil is that the material universe seems like an awfully flawed and nasty thing to expect from an all-good God. If it's really that bad, then maybe it is the product of a lesser agency, which set things in motion, warts and all. Perhaps it was created by a blind, selfish demiurge (as the Sethian gnostics believed), or by a big, dumb screw-up (as the Valentinian gnostics thought). Orthodox Christians (at least the ones who know their own theology), will tell you that _o Christos_ made the material world. But when you consider what sort of a world that really is, it would make a lot more sense for them to say that _o satan_ was the creator of matter and the God of Love and Justice was the author of life/consciousness--the existential predicament of our experience being that matter has imprisoned life, and the Sotorological significance being that life can be liberated. Or maybe there's another answer.


I tend to think the universe is not that bad and so don't mind having God's mind create it, but I am beginning to understand your gnostic dualism which seems based on the dualism of good and evil.





> I agree with you about freedom; I believe that the Universal Mind is good (but the jury is still out for me on the material aspect of the Universe); and I have faith in the personal quality of God. 2.5 out of three. Maybe we are in the same pew after all.


After reading Lanza's account of time, I think one could derive from quantum physics either (a) there is no material substance or (b) time does not exist in the sense that we are creating the past as well as the future. One might not need to deny both of them. I prefer denying that material substance exists. That forces Mind to exist. However, if we are creating the past as we need to make the present consistent, then one doesn't need a Mind, but one is caught in solipsism.




> Yes, and peeing on his fingers and writing graffiti. Only it's not God. It's the Buddha of the Western Heaven, depicted as wiser, holier, and more powerful than the Taoist/Animist "God," the Jade Emperor--whose ally he is. That strange arrangement comes from the Doctrine of the Three Ways, a traditional attempt to harmonize the materialism of Taoism/animism, the immaterialism of Buddhism, and ethics of Confucianism. It's an important aspect of later Chinese culture (including Chinese-American culture), but in terms of our discussion, it is a marriage of things that really don't belong together, at least for Taoism and Buddhism, at least for me.
> 
> But that doesn't effect my enjoyment of Journey to the West at all. The scene you mentioned comes at the end of Sun Wukong's war with Heaven, which I see as a metaphor for the human experience of growing up. Mao tried to use it as a symbol of his murderous Cultural Revolution. And others have pointed out similarities with the story of the revolt of Satan. But the author, in my opinion, was talking about something called "monkey mind," (in effect, immaturity, but it's so much better than that when Sun Wukong does it). Monkey mind is one of the phases or stumbling blocks that a Buddhist strives to overcome in the course of a lifetime. Ironically, that is why the character is funnier before his conversion to Buddhism than afterwards, at least in my opinion.


Well, Sun Wukong was a monkey. I didn't know that Mao used that scene to justify the Cultural Revolution. I don't see how it fits.




> Oh well, I'm blithering again. I wrote you a piece of doggerel about freedom and evil in Paul's poetry thread. Monkey mind is still a problem for some of us.


Yes, I saw that and responded continuing the idea. 

Bringing this all back to ghosts and other paranormal experiences, it seems that the existence of things like telepathy implies that there be some field of consciousness that carries the influence outward from the Mind as the source. This is not an electromagnetic or gravitational field but would explain the effect by using a similar action at a distance idea.

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