# Reading > Philosophical Literature >  What is love?

## Aragorn

I am from China, I am still in university. I was wanderring in the net yesterday night, and happened to enter this forum accidently. 
I have a queastion for you guys. I really need your help. 
my question is......
does love exist? if it exists, then what is it like?
my girl freind left me yesterday. she said she's out to look for a rich man and she said if i could give her a BMW right now, she would come back right now.
we have been together for two years. 
really? two years' loving can not go beyond a BMW?  :Confused:

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## fzeko

my question is "what the hell is love"?

i have been trying to figure out that question for the past two and a half years since i started falling in love with my ex boyfriend and i realized that the more you try to figue out love, the more complicated it gets.

everyone experiences love differently and yes, love does exist in many various ways; you just have to be able to be open and receptive and have good insight.people love us in their own unique ways but if it is not our way than it is not enough. 

i am not sure if the BMW is the issue here but do you really want to have back a woman that is setting materialistic barriers in your relationship? good love is supposed to be unconditional in a rational way though and in accordance with our needs as well.

i am sure everything is black and white for you now but give it some time and get some prespective in the issue and let the feelings run their course and slowly you will feel better and time wil help you recover.

remember that no one has died of a broken heart (just trying to make you laugh) and you allow this experience to teach you things about youself and help you grow emotionally and spirituality.

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## Xamonas Chegwe

On one tune lovesickness finally broken heart alone tall building looks the completely sorrow of parting

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## bluevictim

The thread title triggered a bit of a flashback.

What is Love -- Haddaway

What is love
Oh baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more
Oh, baby don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more

What is love
Yeah

Oh, I don't know why you're not there
I give you my love, but you don't care
So what is right and what is wrong
Gimme a sign

What is love
Oh baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more
What is love
Oh baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more

Whoa whoa whoa, oooh oooh
Whoa whoa whoa, oooh oooh

Oh, I don't know, what can I do
What else can I say, it's up to you
I know we're one, just me and you
I can't go on

What is love
Oh baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more
What is love
Oh baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more

Whoa whoa whoa, oooh oooh
Whoa whoa whoa, oooh oooh

What is love, oooh, oooh, oooh
What is love, oooh, oooh, oooh

What is love
Oh baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more

Don't hurt me
Don't hurt me

I want no other, no other lover
This is your life, our time
When we are together, I need you forever
Is it love

What is love
Oh baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more
What is love
Oh baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more (oooh, oooh)

What is love
Oh baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more
What is love
Oh baby, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more (oooh, oooh)

What is love?

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## Aragorn

Thank you guys. That's true if materialistic things matter, that's no need to hang in there.

Now I think, when you pass the crush phase, love is more like a habit. You just used to those things. sometimes, you will be tired, but when you look back, home is always the sweetest.

nowadays, you have learn to love. 
love is based on those things, presents, and holidays. 
besides that, there's only sex. 
it's sad thing, sometiems you watch TV or read novels, watching so many romantic love going on. you will think, Oh, that's nice some day i gonna get that. 
But, in fact, these unconditional love never exists in real life.
because the imaginations of the authors of these stories can fly, fly high in heaven; we, normal creatures can not.
we are limited to love. 
maybe we just don't think too more of love. just treat it as a usual staff. 
not the meaning of life

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## lavendar1

> But, in fact, these unconditional love never exists in real life.
> because the imaginations of the authors of these stories can fly, fly high in heaven; we, normal creatures can not.
> we are limited to love. 
> maybe we just don't think too more of love. just treat it as a usual staff. 
> not the meaning of life


I'd have to disagree with you on that one, Aragon -- for 'real' love _is_  unconditional; it simply _is_; it exists outside time and circumstance. Don't be fooled that love is contingent on its being _returned_ to you. 

Have you ever heard a song called "Give it Away" by the Red Hot Chili Peppers? While I'm not a particular fan of theirs, I do believe in the lyrics of that song -- saying we should not be afraid to love - to _give it away_ to others without even needing for that gift to be reciprocated.

Sure, it hurts when those romantic feelings aren't returned -- but would you rather that you had never felt that way? Of course not! 

Time is a good teacher; trust in it. And never give in to beliefs that real love - unconditional love - isn't in the cards for you; it's up to you to permit it. There are few things in this life that are _pure_ - love is one of them.

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## Aragorn

[QUOTE=lavendar1]I'd have to disagree with you on that one, Aragon -- for 'real' love _is_  unconditional; it simply _is_; it exists outside time and circumstance. Don't be fooled that love is contingent on its being _returned_ to you. 
QUOTE]

So what is love? 
Is it pure sex? I think, according your words above, it's not?
Is it pure feeling? Is it pure giving and not asking anything back like is said is BIble?
I don't think so. 
If love excits outside time and circumstance. 
then lets trace back to the stone age: Whydid these cave people get married? they just have to carry on the torch of human race, as animals do. 
Later our forefathers invented language and everything, then, we started to have culture. 
slowly, the brain of theirs developed, and started to think about more things than sex. 
We should never underestimated the power of intellectual. They thought a lot more than others and even read down their thought in books. That's when normal people began to realize, oh, we can love in this way, we can express our feelings in this way.
I think, that's how the concept of love formed. 
Menfucius believed that there is a doctrine excits in the universe; It's there never change.
you say that love excits beyond time and circumstance. 
my question is : Is the love beyond understanding and human knowledge.
If not, what is it like. can you describe it?
if you can do that, how to get that?
Is love a two-people thing or just one person's crush for another can be called love?

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## Chava

I met a boy last year. Mutual interests, etc. all that jazz. If I were a romantist, like he is, i would assume that it was love at first sight, that we were soul mates, or whatever. But being who and what I am, i just appreciate that there's a person whom i can live my life with, and get the most out of it. A person whom i can be sporadical with. 
You see, if you're going to search for love, or find the meaning of life, it all get's very complicated. So i've chosen not to believe in all that stuff about there bieng one only one. that's just too depressing. But, with this darling boy, i can live my life in a way that i really enjoy without other compromises, and the fact that he does the same, shows a mutual "love". And now, we've been "together" for slightly more than a year, and curiously enough... we've never had a fight. It's love my dears, it's love.

What's more, i often find that people are insecure about if their "love" is correct, or the same as everyone else's. When really, love is just an attraction, a compassion, a real need to make life better for someone else. It's love.

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## RobinHood3000

I agree with Chava in that I seriously doubt there's just one person for everyone. Humans generally just aren't that picky.

I would definitely say that Ms. Beemer isn't worth your time. There are vast numbers of women out there who are less materialistic--statistically speaking, plenty of them are bound to enjoy spending time with you.

Still, I can understand your cynicism. It's tough to maintain a relationship and subsequently difficult to cope when such a relationship simply ends.

As for what love is, I think I'll wait until I have more time on my hands before explaining my perception of love.

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## Virgil

> As for what love is, I think I'll wait until I have more time on my hands before explaining my perception of love.


Keep waiting Robin. I'm 44 years old, been married almost 15 years, knew my wife almost three years before marriage, and had a few relationships before her. I still can't put my finger on what it is. All I can tell you is that it evolves. The love I have for my wife is not the same love of our early days, or the same as that of our early marriage, and perhaps the same as five years ago. For love to last a life span, one has to re-fall in love with that same person (and everyone changes over time including yourself) once again at critical times. Perhaps that is why so many marriages fail, the failure to refall in love. That is why comittment is so important. 

Growing up, my parents were constantly bickering and yelling at each other, perhaps the sterotypical Italian marriage. I always thought, no they're not in love with each other at least in the romantic sense. Well in the last year and a half my father has suffered some serious health problems that has him right now bound to a nursing home bed. I've never seen my parents show such affection to each other, caring for each other, comittment to each other. What can I say, that's love.

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## RobinHood3000

Well, I have a functioning definition of love that I use from day-to-day, but of course, like my belief system, it requires constant whittling, refining, and tinkering as I learn more and more.

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## rachel

1Corinthians 13 this is what I call true love:
The Attitude in Exercising One's Spiritual Gifts
13:1 If I speak with the languages of men and of angels, 
but don't have love, I have become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal. 
13:2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; 
and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but don't have love, I am nothing. 

13:3 If I dole out all my goods to feed the poor, and if I give my body to be burned, 
but don't have love, it profits me nothing. 

13:4 Love is patient and is kind; love doesn't envy. 
Love doesn't brag, is not proud, 
13:5 doesn't behave itself inappropriately, 
doesn't seek its own way, is not provoked, takes no account of evil; 
13:6 doesn't rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 
13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 
13:8 Love never fails.
this is how I live and what love is to me. but that is me.

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## lavendar1

> 1Corinthians 13 this is what I call true love:
> ...this is how I live and what love is to me. but that is me.


Thanks, Rachel. Me, too.

There are times when I think maybe my Don Quixote delusions are kicking in by believing this, but then again no. _I don't_  think so.

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## ElizabethSewall

I think love is a great many things actually. Plenty of feelings interwining. Elation and habits, questionning yourself constantly. Keeping principles but being able to forgive at the same time. Being here through happy days and sad ones. Wanting to make your beloved happy above all, even if it implies letting her or him go.

Virgil I liked what you said very much, about falling in love many times with the same person. This is so true

Aragorn if the whole thing is about a BMW I dont think she deserves your love. Take care and keep believing anyway

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## woeful painter

Love for me is...when I don't know the answer why i'm in love with the person...I just am. I'll put up with everything, good or happy times, just so long as I'm with the person. And even a decade of being together still feels like were circling around from the beginning of our relationship, meaning things are still that romantic, engrossing, childish fights every now and then but are abruptly finished with a good game, movie, reading etc. Lastly, my _love_ is not tolerative of all thoughts/actions such as being materialistic and so. This is not the definition of love...it's just me... :Smile:

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## Problem Child

Well to be honest lad, I'd say your bird was a bit of a cow since she bwould have prefered a BMW to you ... although there is another thought that comes to mind. Perhaps she wasn't reffering to the car make BMW but what younger kids like to laugh at.

To be honest, love for me is just a bad memory of a girl who thought I had a small penis because she was feeling in the wrong area. Me and my friends laugh about it now of course, but at the time it wasn't exactly fun.

Ah well. It be reet.

PS could anyone recommend me any other ace poets since I've got into it and I'd say William Blake is my fav, but was wondering if there were any similar ones that people know. Try n email me cos I don't want to take up King Aragon's thingy-bobbins

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## ClaesGefvenberg

What is love? What a good question...

In my opinion. the number of true answers is unlimited, because it's all in the eye of the beholder. Basically, it is a chemical reaction, of course, but that is not a very romantic way of describing it  :Rolleyes:  

I suppose it's a little bit like life itself. Sometimes you need to roll with the punches, and at other times it's all going your way. 

Myself? I consider myself lucky. I met the missus some 24 years ago.

/Claes

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## Aragorn

> Well to be honest lad, I'd say your bird was a bit of a cow since she bwould have prefered a BMW to you ... although there is another thought that comes to mind. Perhaps she wasn't reffering to the car make BMW but what younger kids like to laugh at.


I try not to blame her. She is one year older than me, which means she is graduating this semester and i will be one years later. maybe this is not a very big deal in western countries. but i think this is in china. China is going crazy, with all the development and reform. everybody is looking for money. 
our religion, is no longer Confucianism or buddhism. Maybe they are still dominant in our living style. But the thought pattern changed, the philosophy changed, the attitude changed. now, money is the only thing that matters. not only the business men are making money, but doctors, professors, teacher, scientists as well. everybody. 
However, not everybody has a fair chance. you have chane to struggle for your fortune, yet some many people don't even have to make money. they just use authority to get money. 
as the disparity between the poor the the rich intensifies. the children of the poor are still poor, cause they can not afford education. And they can not get free meal like the rich's children. if you see a modern woman driveing a BMW, you will probably want, before i can get a job in Merril Lynch, the fastest way to have a BMW ofr my girl friend, ex-girl friend, is to marry a rich man, or you don't even need to marry him, if you know what i mean. these kinds of things are going on like cazy in Chinese universities. 
Once, a friend of mine, who is half chinese, half American and born in Germany, asked me why in china all the agly men can get all the pretty girls. my answer was, unfortunately, some agly men happen to be rich men.
hope my country will be better off. 
Pray we can be rich both materialistically and spiritrually.
My English is not as good as your guys'. If you don't understand me on some points, just treat them as jokes.
world peace. No starvation. no war between Iran and USA. no between mainland China and Taiwan. No war between China and Japan. no war between Israel and Palestine. pray.

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## Virgil

I understand your english, Aragorn. I'm sure it's a stressful time in your country. Transition is a difficult thing, but once things settle down, I'm sure your lives will be better. Hold on to your beliefs while striving to improve your life and that of your family. I agree with what as been said. A woman who is only interested in a BMW is not worth it. Find an old fashion girl who will appreciate you.

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## Stanislaw

Love is like a good game of chess, you don't think about the moves in the game, nor do you think what you should do, you feel it in your brain, you feel the moves, the thoughts, and the words, as if they were in your very soul.

Love is more than sex, more than material, and more the life, love is an intermixing of stimulus, that you can taste, smell, hear, see, and feel all at once, and you know is intrinsicly present, like a gear in a machine flawlessly connecting, but in the soul.

It is the most unique sensation in the universe, and is so binding, that if it is ever damaged, the chances of recovering the feeling are very poor. Like it is said that only in life does an artist paint the defining masterpiece of his works, so is it true for love.

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## Countess

When I'm in love, I'd be happy living in a cardboard box with a guy.

For me love is both emotion and action. Just like faith without works is dead, love without action is dead. If you say you love someone, but do nothing to demonstrate it or do the opposite, then your lips lie. If you act "as if" you love someone, obediently following what one should do in such circumstances, then you're a glaring hypocrite.

Behavior naturally springs from the heart of the true lover. A heart bursting with adoration has no other choice but to express itself through praise, through selfless consideration of the other, etc.

I don't believe I shall ever know this love from another, but I know it exists because I have it.

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## dreamsbegone

i can't say anything for i do not believe in love. i know i shall love someday but i don't believe in it.

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## one_raven

Love is a verb.
It is not some ethereal, undescribable, unattainable emotion floating in the aether.
The connection between people comes from attraction, physical, emotional, intellectual...
Whatever it is you find attracive in a person.
Of course, there is also the ideals of protection, caring, faith, opneness and all the other aspects that make two people attracted to each other.

Love, on the other hand, is simply an action.
It is treating the person you care with honor and respect.
It is being honest, straight-forward and earning the trust that someone has decided to place in you.
It is being patient, kind and supportive.

"But he loves me."...
When I hear that half of me feels horribly sad and the other half gets viciously angry.
If he did, there would never be a "But" in front of that!

Love is not an excuse, a tool or a damned weapon.
It is not a commodity.
It is not anything but simple respectful treatment for the person you appreciate, desire and value.

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## jackyyyy

' need '

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## one_raven

> ' need '


Really?

Need, in my opinion, leads simply to desperation and obsession, not love.
If you truly love someone your desire for them to be happy, with or without you, transcends and surpasses your "need" for them.
You would not only willingly allow them to go find their happiness elsewhere, without you, but you would do so with a genuine gladness for them.

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## jackyyyy

Yes, I was being quick for sure, and I apologize for my attempt to condense above comments. 

a need to give
a need to take
a need to share
a need to not need (maybe)

Something that makes us do, feel, want, not want, react.. or, does not make us do, feel, want, not want, react.. a gerzillion things.. something. So I don't know its confining the state and condition. The word (to me) is open ended, not really defining anything, however always agreeing with the above.

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## one_raven

Ahhhhh.
I see.
I took your post as saying
"I love him/her" = "I need him/her"

It makes more sense to me now.
Thanks.

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## jackyyyy

aye, and I just woke up.. I am seeing the noun.




> does love exist? if it exists, then what is it like?
> my girl freind left me yesterday. she said she's out to look for a rich man and she said if i could give her a BMW right now, she would come back right now.
> we have been together for two years. 
> really? two years' loving can not go beyond a BMW?


Don't be confused.. its the curse of the richman to be straddled with such a fickle minded woman.. and a blessing to the poorman that he is left to move along and meet the right one. She ain't worth a ball bearing on that BMW. My humble advice because I don't know what love is.. don't go looking for it, it will find you.

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## rachel

that is beautiful jackyy. You sure you aren't a therapist? Unique therapist that can entertain truly psychotic clients with your party knees tricks to help them feel centred and happy once more.  :FRlol:

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## The Unnamable

> Love is a verb.
> It is not some ethereal, undescribable, unattainable emotion floating in the aether.
> The connection between people comes from attraction, physical, emotional, intellectual...
> Whatever it is you find attracive in a person.
> Of course, there is also the ideals of protection, caring, faith, opneness and all the other aspects that make two people attracted to each other.
> 
> Love, on the other hand, is simply an action.
> It is treating the person you care with honor and respect.
> It is being honest, straight-forward and earning the trust that someone has decided to place in you.
> ...


You express yourself with passion and uncompromising self-assurance. I fully understand what you say but wonder what you make of the following by Alice Munro. Its closer to the experience of love in my bruised and fractured world. Is it not love?

If we had been older we would certainly have hung on, haggled over the price of reconciliation, explained and justified and perhaps forgiven, and carried this into the future with us, but as it was we were close enough to childhood to believe in the absolute seriousness and finality of some fights, unforgivability of some blows. We had seen in each other what we could not bear, and we had no idea that people do see that, and go on, and hate and fight and try to kill each other, various ways, then love some more.

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## blp

> I try not to blame her. She is one year older than me, which means she is graduating this semester and i will be one years later. maybe this is not a very big deal in western countries. but i think this is in china. China is going crazy, with all the development and reform. everybody is looking for money. 
> our religion, is no longer Confucianism or buddhism. Maybe they are still dominant in our living style. But the thought pattern changed, the philosophy changed, the attitude changed. now, money is the only thing that matters. not only the business men are making money, but doctors, professors, teacher, scientists as well. everybody. 
> However, not everybody has a fair chance. you have chane to struggle for your fortune, yet some many people don't even have to make money. they just use authority to get money. 
> as the disparity between the poor the the rich intensifies. the children of the poor are still poor, cause they can not afford education. And they can not get free meal like the rich's children. if you see a modern woman driveing a BMW, you will probably want, before i can get a job in Merril Lynch, the fastest way to have a BMW ofr my girl friend, ex-girl friend, is to marry a rich man, or you don't even need to marry him, if you know what i mean. these kinds of things are going on like cazy in Chinese universities. 
> Once, a friend of mine, who is half chinese, half American and born in Germany, asked me why in china all the agly men can get all the pretty girls. my answer was, unfortunately, some agly men happen to be rich men.
> hope my country will be better off. 
> Pray we can be rich both materialistically and spiritrually.
> My English is not as good as your guys'. If you don't understand me on some points, just treat them as jokes.
> world peace. No starvation. no war between Iran and USA. no between mainland China and Taiwan. No war between China and Japan. no war between Israel and Palestine. pray.


I sympathise. I friend of mine is just back from two years working in China. He had a girlfriend in Europe all the while, so never thought about dating Chinese women, but said he never would have anyway because of precisely this kind of BMW, cheque-book grabbing, grasping materialism. 

By the way, the word you want is 'ugly' not 'agly'. But yeah, your English is pretty good.

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## jackyyyy

> that is beautiful jackyy. You sure you aren't a therapist? Unique therapist that can entertain truly psychotic clients with your party knees tricks to help them feel centred and happy once more.


Nooooooo, last time I looked I am in need of a therapist (joling)




> Alice Munro.
> 
> 
> If we had been older we would certainly have hung on, haggled over the price of reconciliation, explained and justified and perhaps forgiven, and carried this into the future with us, but as it was we were close enough to childhood to believe in the absolute seriousness and finality of some fights, unforgivability of some blows. We had seen in each other what we could not bear, and we had no idea that people do see that, and go on, and hate and fight and try to kill each other, various ways, then love some more.



I am taking this to next week with me... wonderful, and thank you!

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## rachel

> You express yourself with passion and uncompromising self-assurance. I fully understand what you say but wonder what you make of the following by Alice Munro. Its closer to the experience of love in my bruised and fractured world. Is it not love?
> 
> If we had been older we would certainly have hung on, haggled over the price of reconciliation, explained and justified and perhaps forgiven, and carried this into the future with us, but as it was we were close enough to childhood to believe in the absolute seriousness and finality of some fights, unforgivability of some blows. We had seen in each other what we could not bear, and we had no idea that people do see that, and go on, and hate and fight and try to kill each other, various ways, then love some more.


oh Unnameable those words are achingly exquisite and exactly what I believe.But it is hard and egos must give way to allow another try to make it work and then another, but in the end if the love was there to begin with it will be there at the end, finer, purified in the crucible of tears and pain and disappointment. That relationship to me is a thing of rare and unbelievable beauty.

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## elpidi26

But what if it were the other way around? That is, what if it were turned on itself? Is beauty still beauty that turns on itself? And what would that say for the love it presents?

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## rachel

I don't quite know what you mean. please help me understand. thankyou

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## one_raven

> If we had been older we would certainly have hung on, haggled over the price of reconciliation, explained and justified and perhaps forgiven, and carried this into the future with us, but as it was we were close enough to childhood to believe in the absolute seriousness and finality of some fights, unforgivability of some blows. We had seen in each other what we could not bear, and we had no idea that people do see that, and go on, and hate and fight and try to kill each other, various ways, then love some more.


I adore this passage.
It is a wonderful bittersweet depiction of the tumult many relationships must endure to succeed, and I have a real soft spot for the bittersweet.

However, this is not a depiction of love.
It is a depiction of passion, compassion, fear, anger and all the other emotions present in many dynamic and exciting relationships.
Words can make anything sound wonderful, even attempted murder, but attempted murder is simply not the fruits of a loving relationship.
Someone certainly can see the ugliness in a person and still love, respect and appreciate them for who they are.
A relationship can certainly go through phases completely devoid of love and may endure.
But to endure, any healthy relationship between two healthy people must have respect as it's kingpin.

Let me ask you this...
Your fifteen-year-old daughter says to you, "I know he hit me, but we were in a fight that just got carried away. We both lost control. He said some horrible, vicious things to me, as I did to him, but we love each other." And this happens once a week.
Would you think, "Well that's a result of all the wonderful dark and light passion that goes along with true love. They should stick together and ride this out."?

If so, we have quite different ideas of what love is, and will never see eye to eye on the subject.

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## The Unnamable

> I adore this passage.
> It is a wonderful bittersweet depiction of the tumult many relationships must endure to succeed, and I have a real soft spot for the bittersweet.


Bittersweet is not the word I would use to describe the kind of love I believe is referred to in that passage. Thats a word more suited to something far lighter. 

I take it you are limiting the idea of love to romantic love? I know that I did so with the Munro extract but does your definition apply to other types of love? Would you consider the feelings George has for Lenny in Of Mice And Men to be love? If a parent ever hits a child, is that parent incapable of love? 





> However, this is not a depiction of love.
> It is a depiction of passion, compassion, fear, anger and all the other emotions present in many dynamic and exciting relationships.


But not love?




> Words can make anything sound wonderful, even attempted murder, but attempted murder is simply not the fruits of a loving relationship.


How do you know? Besides, words can also make anything sound terrible.




> Someone certainly can see the ugliness in a person and still love, respect and appreciate them for who they are.
> A relationship can certainly go through phases completely devoid of love and may endure.
> But to endure, any healthy relationship between two healthy people must have respect as it's kingpin.


It seems to me that the strongest love of all, that of a parent for its child, has little to do with respect. Its simply unconditional love.





> Let me ask you this...
> Your fifteen-year-old daughter says to you, "I know he hit me, but we were in a fight that just got carried away. We both lost control. He said some horrible, vicious things to me, as I did to him, but we love each other." And this happens once a week.
> Would you think, "Well that's a result of all the wonderful dark and light passion that goes along with true love. They should stick together and ride this out."?


I think this is a pointless question. It would be like asking the mother of a murdered child if the killer should be executed. Either way, you arent going to receive a rational answer. Its also unfair in its use of deliberately crass language for what I might be thinking. That isnt _me_ but _your point_ speaking. So, although I would obviously be deeply concerned for my daughter, I cant ever be in a position to say with the assurance you have that there was no love in the relationship.

It strikes me as an odd thing to be so cut and dried over the issue of love. You seem to allow for only a very strict definition of love  one that seems to me unattainable by many people, myself included  and no, I have never hit a partner in anger before anyone jumps to any conclusions; nor am I justifying it. 

Obviously, it doesnt matter whether or not we do see eye to eye over this. Whatever else love is, its an emotion. I feel what I feel and if it doesnt meet your criteria for what love is, that will make no difference to what I feel. At least those reading the Munro have an alternative view to consider. I believe that there are many people who cant live life in straight lines, guided by a single defining principle. Many of us grub on in a muddle and try our best to touch and be touched. People arent perfect but it seems to me that for your ideal of love, they need to be.

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## rachel

having been a battered wife I can clearly see what Raven is talking about. But I did not understand the killing part to include physical violence which I think should not be tolerated whether it is the man or woman who is at the giving end.I think people "kill" one another thru words and unforgiveness and selfishness which in turn kills the love and the comradeship, the tenderness and the friendship. That is all I was referring to.

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## Anon22

If Hate is the opposite of Love, and Love is complex, then shouldn't hate be complex as well? Good defines bad and bad defines good, so if hate is the opposite of love, then the definition of Love would simply be, the absence of Hate, and the definition of hate, the absence of love. This is not the case though as love is more complex than hate, meaning that hate's opposite would be something else... Like. To like and to hate. So what is the opposite of love? What is the true absence of Love?

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## rachel

I really can't say but when I think of love I think of light and warmth and growth, when I think of hate I think of dark, not as night which is lovely, not as underground where the seed dies and comes forth to life, but as a dark that is so intense and devoid of any thing that has life that it is downright ugly and scarey. at least to me.rather like a crater on the moon without the wonder and majesty or beauty of it, or a black hole.

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## jackyyyy

it writes, 'various ways'. 

Interesting to me, there are people who, after 25 years of proding each other each day, don't call it love anymore, then suddenly rally and cry when the other falls ill. 

Assuming one bad day in a 1000, so .001 hate, is showing just how incontainable love is, its never black and white.

The passage is showing that a little giving may have saved this love, a failure.

Thanks, Digital... and then there are 'Love Hate' relationships. Love unrequited, unresolved, unsolved, lost, unreturned,... returned, et cetera ad infinituum. 

And, yes, I hate my medicine.

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## Scheherazade

Is it a realistic attitude to expect love to be all positive and expect the loved ones to be 'perfect'? We are not perfect (OK, maybe I should speak for myself) and I don't want to be loved in that light either... What a great burden to carry, trying to live up to someone's expectations all the time, being placed on a pedestal. There is a quote I love by Faulkner: 

Loving all of it even while he had to hate some of it because he knows now that you don't love because: *you love despite; not for the virtues, but despite the faults.*

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## Honey_Ryder62

Love is like God, it only exisits if you believe it exists and you will only find it when you are not ready for it.

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## elpidi26

I agree and disagree. If love IS like God, then truly believeing that, you will give love unconditionally to even the unlovable. While it is true that the discovery of love can be quite serendipitous, our charge for loving others (in the sense that you equate love to God ) is absolute, complete, and impartial. Maybe if all followed this principle, we might find what is understood as heaven right here on earth.

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## Aragorn

> Love is a verb.
> It is not some ethereal, undescribable, unattainable emotion floating in the aether.
> The connection between people comes from attraction, physical, emotional, intellectual...
> Whatever it is you find attracive in a person.
> Of course, there is also the ideals of protection, caring, faith, opneness and all the other aspects that make two people attracted to each other.
> 
> Love, on the other hand, is simply an action.
> It is treating the person you care with honor and respect.
> It is being honest, straight-forward and earning the trust that someone has decided to place in you.
> ...


if love is like this, don't you think it is a little bit too hard to enjoy?
i think there are too many premises of the love in your opinion.
let's assume there is this extremely selfish guy in Wall Street who only cares about money, can he love?
If he does love a girl very much and will do everything to make her happy, but meantime he will not shed a crocodile's tear for a handicapped kid struggling in the street, then is his love for the girl still unconditional love?
i think there is no saint in the world, every man has flaw. even a man has the unbelievalble love for his sweet heart, still sometimes they will quarrel and fight. 
maybe people just dont and wont know what love is like, so we will keep on think about, pore on, and imagine love. 
once i read a novel, Gramigna's Lover by Giovanni Verga. The girl, Peppa,fell in love with this gangster,Gramigna, with absolutely no reason. she never met him ,nor had a piture of him. she just knew his name and the fact that he killed a lot of people and was wanted by the police. this girl was not insane and she didn't love murder, moreover, she had a very handsome and successful fiance. but just before the wedding, Peppa went out to find Gramigna, and had his baby, and then he was captured by the police. Afterwards, she lived beside the prison with her little baby girl. the end.
maybe every love is in this way, just your thought. 

there are no saints in the world, so we can not afford saints' love. 
Intellectuals keep thinking, creating love, which is in fact non-existent.
maybe just the fact there is no evindence of its existence is just what inspires and stimulates us to meditate over it. 
kind of like god. if god is non-existent, there's no need to create it, guys.
if there is no such altruistic, unconditional, high-level love, there is no need creating it.
anyone here can claim that he is capable of and worth this acme-of-perfection love?
doubtful.......................................... .....................................

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## white camellia

> I try not to blame her. She is one year older than me, which means she is graduating this semester and i will be one years later. maybe this is not a very big deal in western countries. but i think this is in china. China is going crazy, with all the development and reform. everybody is looking for money. 
> our religion, is no longer Confucianism or buddhism. Maybe they are still dominant in our living style. But the thought pattern changed, the philosophy changed, the attitude changed. now, money is the only thing that matters. not only the business men are making money, but doctors, professors, teacher, scientists as well. everybody. 
> However, not everybody has a fair chance. you have chane to struggle for your fortune, yet some many people don't even have to make money. they just use authority to get money. 
> as the disparity between the poor the the rich intensifies. the children of the poor are still poor, cause they can not afford education. And they can not get free meal like the rich's children. if you see a modern woman driveing a BMW, you will probably want, before i can get a job in Merril Lynch, the fastest way to have a BMW ofr my girl friend, ex-girl friend, is to marry a rich man, or you don't even need to marry him, if you know what i mean. these kinds of things are going on like cazy in Chinese universities. 
> Once, a friend of mine, who is half chinese, half American and born in Germany, asked me why in china all the agly men can get all the pretty girls. my answer was, unfortunately, some agly men happen to be rich men.
> hope my country will be better off. 
> Pray we can be rich both materialistically and spiritrually.
> My English is not as good as your guys'. If you don't understand me on some points, just treat them as jokes.
> world peace. No starvation. no war between Iran and USA. no between mainland China and Taiwan. No war between China and Japan. no war between Israel and Palestine. pray.


I don't agree with you at all, Aragorn.
One truth prevails: the allurement of material things (money, electric products ...) do not only apply to some of our people-only if you look beyond the surface, knowing that roots in human nature, and study other nations, especially those who have practiced capitalism for centuries, for you to see what is going on there(we have evidence here).
Unblamable is that our denizens make more money under the economic reform in the latest decades, all to improve living conditions when some social problems emerge which is inevitable. 
"Ugly" but "rich" men do not always win "pretty girls", if poor intelligence of the men, and beautiful heart of the girls. Blessed is that many Chinese girls still radiate the Wang Zhaojun-like courage, and the Lin Daiyu-like wit.
Our traditions still play an important role in our daily life, in spite of those a few, the vacant and shortsighted, who fall unconsciously, in pursuit of fickle things, but the cultural and philosophical heritage shape our way of thinking inconspicuously(the conception of loyalty, etc.). 
Complains do not make a country better, and I've heard many from my friends as well as teachers from western hemisphere too.
I personally tend to think that there will be a war between China Mainland and Taiwan, very likely.

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## hera-on-earth

"We come to love not by finding the perfect person; but by learning to see an imperfect person perfectly" Well....i didnt say that...Sam Keene did!

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## Aragorn

> Love is like God, it only exisits if you believe it exists and you will only find it when you are not ready for it.


if god doesn't exist, there is not need to create it.




> "Ugly" but "rich" men do not always win "pretty girls", if poor intelligence of the men, and beautiful heart of the girls. Blessed is that many Chinese girls still radiate the Wang Zhaojun-like courage, and the Lin Daiyu-like wit.


i have never been to chengdu, so i keep my mouth shut about the situation there. but for the regions along the coast, i am sure of three things: 
first, in china, most rich men are not intelligent. their money is earned by dirty means. most of them are ugly, barefaced, shallow-hearted,and narrow-minded, and always trying to find some tweenkie girls. Wives and kids they have; loyelty and reponsibility they haven't. 
Secondly, even maybe some of the rich guys are intelligent, but the girls are not throwing themslves to the rich's beds to find intelligence. knowing those guys iare as old as their fathers, and has families and everything, you would believe that the girls are looking for something of high spiritual level? are you kidding me? 
The third, many Chinese girls still radiate the Wang Zhaojun-like courage, and the Lin Daiyu-like wit???? can you just give me one example, from the people that we both know, like movie stars or writers......


"Complains do not make a country better, and I've heard many from my friends as well as teachers from western hemisphere too."
i am not complaining, i am just disappointed, not just by my girl friend, but by everything here.

Our traditions still play an important role in our daily life, in spite of those a few, the vacant and shortsighted, who fall unconsciously, in pursuit of fickle things, but the cultural and philosophical heritage shape our way of thinking inconspicuously(the conception of loyalty, etc.). 

i dont think so. but i dont have enough time to argue with you tonight. going to study.
still, nice hearing your opinions.

Lu Xun once said, true intellectuals are always disappointed, because they are always unsatisafied, they want things better.
i just want things better like you do, white camelia. 
but in my opinion, china has heard enough praise nowadays, i will not add any more. 
i think we are blinded by the economic achievements. Man, time will not go back. we have only one chance. what if we are in a wrong way? what if the results are irredeemable? we have but one chance. and out there billions of people are suffering. man, maybe you are a beneficiary of the reform and openness. but some are not.
do not judge too soon. think about it, we have just one chance. no one wants to screw it up. i am concerned about motherland, but i dont want to say sweet words no more. 
you are so sure that the path we are oursuing is the right one? well maybe you are sure, but some are not. i am not sure. that's why i choose economics as my major. i want to make sure things are getting better, not worse, and not for short term, but in long term, not for a special previliged group, but for the majority.
maybe we can catch up with the developed countries economically, but culturally it's much and much hard.

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## Stanislaw

> Don't be confused.. its the curse of the richman to be straddled with such a fickle minded woman.. and a blessing to the poorman that he is left to move along and meet the right one. She ain't worth a ball bearing on that BMW. My humble advice because I don't know what love is.. don't go looking for it, it will find you.


Ai, true love is not a beast that can be hunted, it will be found only when you are not looking for it.

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## LustyObserver

love is too deep to describe in words because words can never come close to the dept of thoughts of emotions. LOve is the emotion that can only be pure when two people encounter a real commited friendship. Its not easy nor is it hard. It is the essentials to life. Therefore, don't force yourself to love (verb) or pressure your true self to love (noun). 

Thats my philosophy of love from my experience.

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## blp

> I don't agree with you at all, Aragorn.
> One truth prevails: the allurement of material things (money, electric products ...) do not only apply to some of our people-only if you look beyond the surface, knowing that roots in human nature, and study other nations, especially those who have practiced capitalism for centuries, for you to see what is going on there(we have evidence here).
> Unblamable is that our denizens make more money under the economic reform in the latest decades, all to improve living conditions when some social problems emerge which is inevitable. 
> "Ugly" but "rich" men do not always win "pretty girls", if poor intelligence of the men, and beautiful heart of the girls. Blessed is that many Chinese girls still radiate the Wang Zhaojun-like courage, and the Lin Daiyu-like wit.
> Our traditions still play an important role in our daily life, in spite of those a few, the vacant and shortsighted, who fall unconsciously, in pursuit of fickle things, but the cultural and philosophical heritage shape our way of thinking inconspicuously(the conception of loyalty, etc.). 
> Complains do not make a country better, and I've heard many from my friends as well as teachers from western hemisphere too.
> I personally tend to think that there will be a war between China Mainland and Taiwan, very likely.


I was wondering what your opinion would be, white camellia. 

I'm not sure it's relevant to say that complaints don't make a country better, or true. They may be the beginning of taking some kind of action to improve things. On the whole though, does it matter? If you get dumped by someone - especially over something as crass as a BMW - or your country seems to be going to hell in a handbasket, the first thing you want to do is just say you feel bad about it. 

This is a very interesting thread - and not because of the old 'what is love' question.

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## white camellia

> knowing those guys iare as old as their fathers, and has families and everything, you would believe that the girls are looking for something of high spiritual level? are you kidding me? 
> The third, many Chinese girls still radiate the Wang Zhaojun-like courage, and the Lin Daiyu-like wit???? can you just give me one example, from the people that we both know, like movie stars or writers......Lu Xun once said, true intellectuals are always disappointed, because they are always unsatisafied, they want things better.


Yes, I believe. From myself, and some others like me. That one girl betrayed you does not mean that another would. The old-fashioned one is still living undiscovered...I don't think I need to exemplify an argument here to support my belief in Chinese girls, or spiritual women as they do exist mostly as nameless who are living their own lives, not for fame. Writers tend to have a better intelligence, but not those kind of writers who merely dangle among readers' appetites, and for sheer commercial profit. Lu Xun also said "Either aroused in silence, or extinguished". Complainers do not make a better country, practitioners do.




> I was wondering what your opinion would be, white camellia.


About what is love?
Actually, I've just begun to learn what is love and how to love as well as be loved in return since a year ago-my first time ever so close to true love, and in the hope that my last time.
I just found the first line from Contessa's opinion about love exactly express me, and I am inspired to say: I would love to live with my precious in a cave on 'Mountain Delectable' if he needs me to, or we need to.
It's been almost 3am here, and I haven't slept for a mini-second. How ruthless the time is that it goes so fast at notice that I'll have to get up for my morning class at 6am soon!
So I quit here, for now.

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## Aragorn

> Yes, I believe. From myself, and some others like me. That one girl betrayed you does not mean that another would. The old-fashioned one is still living undiscovered...I don't think I need to exemplify an argument here to support my belief in Chinese girls, or spiritual women as they do exist mostly as nameless who are living their own lives, not for fame. Writers tend to have a better intelligence, but not those kind of writers who merely dangle among readers' appetites, and for sheer commercial profit. Lu Xun also said "Either aroused in silence, or extinguished". Complainers do not make a better country, practitioners do.



so practitioner means one has to admit that everything in China is right? 
in my university, beijing foreign studies university, i have a very vivid experience about chinese girls. on friday evening and monday morning, you can see a long line of fancy cars on campus, and they drive fast than wind. on friday evening, they come and pick up girls, and on monday morning, at 6to 8 oclock, they drive the girls back. 
our university is so-called beauty university, and several universities around here, like dance academy and art academy witness the same drama. 
i am talking about the majority. if there is one girl doing this, no big deal. hewever, there are hundreds doing this while they are still in university. you wanna ask me to admit this is a good thing stimultated by economic success?
yes, there are good girl, a lot. but, what i am talking about is the atmosphere is so rotten and corrupted, even universites, such a pure place can not escape, that is an issue that needs the country's attention. 
doubtful......
either arouse in silence, or extinguish, yes, that's why i am so angry. hehe.
my opinion is no more putting economics first.

you guys wanna here something ironic? 'that girl' came back a few days ago and apologized. She cried and everything, begging me to take her back. i dont know what to say.............................................

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## blp

> About what is love?
> Actually, I've just begun to learn what is love and how to love as well as be loved in return since a year ago-my first time ever so close to true love, and in the hope that my last time.
> I just found the first line from Contessa's opinion about love exactly express me, and I am inspired to say: I would love to live with my precious in a cave on 'Mountain Delectable' if he needs me to, or we need to.
> It's been almost 3am here, and I haven't slept for a mini-second. How ruthless the time is that it goes so fast at notice that I'll have to get up for my morning class at 6am soon!
> So I quit here, for now.


Well actually, I meant I'd been curious to know how you were going to respond to what was being said about China and Chinese women. Somehow I can't imagine you dumping someone over a BMW or demanding the best table in a restaurant.




> you guys wanna here something ironic? 'that girl' came back a few days ago and apologized. She cried and everything, begging me to take her back. i dont know what to say.............................................


Maybe ask her if she realises you still don't have a BMW.

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## white camellia

I did not say that Every Chinese Girl deserves our respect, some do get lost in material things, such as BMW that I don't behold valuable if procured at the cost of love and one's truth.
I've heard of those scandals in some foreign language institutions long ago and I don't consider it virtuous and wise. Women should appreciate themselves. But, they are not the only ones to blame. Though this is indeed a phenomenon at some localities, but that cannot represent the whole. How many such lost women compared to the whole at one institution, how many foreign institutions compared to the overall universities, and how many females in those institutions compared to all others in every universities? You can consider then the minority and the majority.
I did not say that everything is going on right here, not here, not everywhere on earth.
I do feel sorry for those who are betrayed once or twice by their ex-girlfriends, or ex-boyfriends, but is not this a very personal thing to grieve or complain on your own? Better not make any victims here.

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## Aragorn

agree with that the girls are the victims to blame.
as i already mentioned, i dont blame anyone. i didn't become cynical for that. and i do think economic growth is a good thing.
but, still, i think the phenomenon in those universities do reflect some problem. they are perhaps a small fraction compared tp all the chinese people. yet as far as i am concerned, this aspect revealed a quite serious problem. chinese proverb: an immense dam can collapse because of a small ant cave. right?
in fact, there are so many problems here, which make me think we are just on a broken rocket. although it is soaring to the sky, but some day in the future, it is gonna fall to the ground, heavily.
this is my anxiety.




> is not this a very personal thing to grieve or complain on your own? Better not make any victims here.


if you read though all my posts, you can see that 
i was definitely not complaining. everyone has hie/her own choices............
blaming no one. 
truth, justice, peace, i seek.
anger, lust, grreedy, i disdain.
there maybe no war between mainland and taiwan.
or at least, i hope so.

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## white camellia

> Find an old fashion girl who will appreciate you.


A very good suggestion!  :Wink: 




> *China* is going crazy, with *all*  the development and reform. *everybody* is looking for money. 
> our religion, is *no longer*  Confucianism or buddhism. Maybe they are still dominant in our living style. But the thought pattern *changed*, the philosophy *changed*, the attitude *changed*. now, money is the *only*  thing that matters. not only the business men are making money, but doctors, professors, teacher, scientists as well. *everybody*. 
> 
> they are perhaps a small fraction compared tp all the chinese people.


do not be so absolute, that may not lead you closer to the truth

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## Koa

> Love is like God, it only exisits if you believe it exists and you will only find it when you are not ready for it.


so i don't believe in love because i don't believe in love? or viceversa?  :Confused:   :Biggrin: 

as for finding it when you are ready or not, rules on that are the biggest kind of bullsh*t that can be said.

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## white camellia

> hope my country will be better off. 
> Pray we can be rich both materialistically and spiritrually.


Most people are still nice ones. If they seemed not, we may infer that they are misguided, and lost.
"China is going crazy"-Can we simply conclude it with a word like "crazy"? Those spreading diseases here concern us all. Some place is indeed in turmoil to some extent, even an upheaval across the nation; then collapse? and get reborn in the end, but in another social form that can fit the development of productivity? Actually, this period of our great nation just reminds me of those days when our people were striving for a revival in the earliest decades of last century. 
Which can really save human, Fascism, Capitalism or Communism? A communist should have faith in Communism.

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## Aragorn

> Which can really save human, Fascism, Capitalism or Communism? A communist should have faith in Communism.


i am definitely no communist. _the road to serfdom_  [B] by Hayek destroyed my last straw of hope in communism.

no matter which is good for our country, i will try to find it, though yet i still have absolutely no idea. and i do think china is going too far on the track. it is the high time to slow down and think about what we are doing. in this year's NPC meeting premier Weh Jiabao said the growth rate of GDP will be slowed to 7% in next 5 years, which i take as a good sign. i am worried if this situation is not handled tactfully, the high-speed train of china would go off track in future. 
the growth of economy relies to much on extensive investment. and we do rank the 194th in medical care system among a total 198 countries. and the disparity between rich and poor ranks 166. the corruption problem rank 179; the pollution problem ranks 181. with a 4th ranked economy, this is appalling.
and many other issues, no need and impossible to list them all.
you seem to be so optimistic, well i am not. there are nice peoplein china. and that's good. but that's none of my business. my job is to make a difference to the situation that yet i am not totally satisfied. 
i dont know what to do yet; what i do know is something has to be done, either bu you or by me or by any other people, to ensure those 0.2billion people who are still living under 1 dollor a day will have a teeny tiny hope for their future......
i am not complaining; i want to identify the problem, find its cause, and give resolution, which i still lack the knowledge to do.

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## white camellia

> no matter which is good for our country, i will try to find it, though yet i still have absolutely no idea. i am not complaining; i want to identify the problem, find its cause, and give resolution, which i still lack the knowledge to do.


Very good then, Aragorn!  :Wink:

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## Aragorn

nice talking to you.

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## one_raven

I said nothing about being perfect or "a saint", nor did I say anything about expecting either in a lover.

This, I believe, is a big part of the problem.
I DID say that the act of loving someone necessarily requires respect and honor.
Since when does the simple act of treating someone you supposedly "love" with respect require sainthood?
Do you have such a depraved view of this so-called "love" as to not treat the one you love with respect?
"I am only human, after all - not a saint."
Do you have such a dim view of yourself and virtues that treating the one you "love" with respect is beyond your grasp?
Do you have such a low self-esteem that you do not expect, require and, in fact, demand your lover treat you with respect?
I am hardly talking about perfection.
I am not talking about people without faults.
I have not implied that a "good", "loving" or even "perfect" relationship is without disagreements.
In fact, the more you care for a person, the more likely you will disagree and argue.
If you care for the person's well-being and happiness and you witness behavior in your partner that you believe is detrimental to them somehow then the act of loving them requires that you will take a stand against such behavior.
This action is not a lack of respect, standing up against someone who is hurting themselves and not allowing it to continue without a fight is an act of the utmost respect and honor.
There is a great difference, however, between a nasty fight with personal attacks and disrespectful language and a heated, passionate argument.
The latter is an act of love, it is allowing your partner to be who they are and vice versa, while acknowledging differences between you.
The former, however, is intended to hurt your partner.
ANY act with the intention to hurt is simply not borne of love and is NOT an act of love.

I recognize that many relationships have raging rivers that require the painstaking effort of cooperating to build bridges to get past these rivers.
I also recognize, however, that without mutual respect these obstacles are extraordinarily difficult to surmount, if they are surmountable at all.

What happens to a relationship without mutual respect?
What happend when heated arguments cross that threshold to personal attacks intended to hurt?
I am sure many here have been there.
If you are not treated respectfully, you feel the need to protect yourself, so become defensive.
That defensiveness will grow and strengthen.
You begin to lose your faith in the trust you placed in this person, and righfully so.
Your defensiveness will inevitably escalate as your withdraw further, and what is elevated defensiveness, but offensiveness?
You go on the attack as well.
Fights happen more often, and lead to worse attacks.
This downward spiral continues until the relationship eventaully implodes.
Perhaps the saddest thing is that many people continue in the farce of a relationship even AFTER it implodes.
He is only human after all - not a saint.
She just had a bad day... again.
Bull****!
Have higher standards.
Have a bit more self-respect.
Have a bit more respect for others - especially those you care about.

Most of the people that I have known who stay in relationships without love stay because they have a serious lack of self esteem that manifests itself as either thinking they don't deserve better, can't get better or simply can't be happy unless in a relationship and this is what is here now.
That makes me sad.
THAT is not love.

Scheherazade,
I disagree with the sentiment of your quote. You do not love despite someone's faults, you love someone because of their faults.


Along another vain...
"Love" is wholly and painfully insufficient as a noun for so many reasons.
Not the least of which, all that is encompassed when people refer to what they feel as "love", should be so much more (and varied) than a single word could encompass.
I prefer to be more specific.
I care about someone's well-being.
I have compassion for someone.
I feel a strong sexual desire for someone.
I adore someone.
I would die to spare someone's life.
I would kill to spare someone's life.
etc...
"Love" (the noun) performs the same pathetic action that any other "all-encompassing" label performs.
It serves to qualify, quantify and per-package the vast breadth and depth of an extraordinarily complex, unique and personal experience.
It simplifies that which should most certainly not be simplified.
It limits, restrains and lends a deplorable disservice to the actual experience by boiling them down, distilling them and compartmentalizing them for mass consumption.

Again, love is a verb.

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## SleepyWitch

> I try not to blame her. She is one year older than me, which means she is graduating this semester and i will be one years later. maybe this is not a very big deal in western countries. but i think this is in china. China is going crazy, with all the development and reform. everybody is looking for money. 
> our religion, is no longer Confucianism or buddhism. Maybe they are still dominant in our living style. But the thought pattern changed, the philosophy changed, the attitude changed. now, money is the only thing that matters. not only the business men are making money, but doctors, professors, teacher, scientists as well. everybody. 
> However, not everybody has a fair chance. you have chane to struggle for your fortune, yet some many people don't even have to make money. they just use authority to get money. 
> as the disparity between the poor the the rich intensifies. the children of the poor are still poor, cause they can not afford education. And they can not get free meal like the rich's children. if you see a modern woman driveing a BMW, you will probably want, before i can get a job in Merril Lynch, the fastest way to have a BMW ofr my girl friend, ex-girl friend, is to marry a rich man, or you don't even need to marry him, if you know what i mean. these kinds of things are going on like cazy in Chinese universities. 
> Once, a friend of mine, who is half chinese, half American and born in Germany, asked me why in china all the agly men can get all the pretty girls. my answer was, unfortunately, some agly men happen to be rich men.
> hope my country will be better off. 
> Pray we can be rich both materialistically and spiritrually.
> My English is not as good as your guys'. If you don't understand me on some points, just treat them as jokes.
> world peace. No starvation. no war between Iran and USA. no between mainland China and Taiwan. No war between China and Japan. no war between Israel and Palestine. pray.


(I haven't read all the posts in this thread so I hope i'm not repeating what's been said before)...
wow, you must be a very mature and good-natured guy if you try not to blame her...
I don't wanna be rude, but in the long run you're probably lucky she left you (no offence!)... i mean, it's not your duty to buy her a BMW. if she wants one let her work and earn her own money so she can buy one herself! can women get well-paid jobs in China? I think they have equal rights officially?? are there any liberated, independent women in China? if you want my advice, try to get to know women who can look after themselves. that way they won't expect you to break your back for them. They might be more difficult to get along with than old-fashioned women, but they will like you for who you are, not for materialistic reasons...

what is love??? i think there's as many answers to that question as there are couples.... I got to know my boyfriend at univ and first we were just friends... so it's wasn't very romantic or passionate, but that way we got to know each other before we got together, so we didn't have too many silly expectations... he's still like a very good friend plus some more... .. forget about sex.. it IS one of the most important aspects of a relationship, but if you like and respect someone very much it will sort itself out, no need to worry about it....

----------


## Xamonas Chegwe

This song sums it up better than most.




> *The Verb 'To Love'
> 
> Todd Rundgren*
> 
> _Some people tell me that love is a feeling
> or a possession
> Somehow it seems so cold
> And when they say love is sweet,
> does it mean that you eat it?
> ...

----------


## Aragorn

> I said nothing about being perfect or "a saint", nor did I say anything about expecting either in a lover.
> 
> This, I believe, is a big part of the problem.
> I DID say that the act of loving someone necessarily requires respect and honor.
> Since when does the simple act of treating someone you supposedly "love" with respect require sainthood?
> Do you have such a depraved view of this so-called "love" as to not treat the one you love with respect?
> "I am only human, after all - not a saint."
> Do you have such a dim view of yourself and virtues that treating the one you "love" with respect is beyond your grasp?
> Do you have such a low self-esteem that you do not expect, require and, in fact, demand your lover treat you with respect?
> ...


YOU ARE RIGHT... THERE ARE STILL SOMETHING IN YOUR POST I AM A LITTLE BIT DAUBTFUL ABOUT, BUT BASICLY, YOU ARE RIGHT.

----------


## shorebreak

Though I did not read the post from S, it seems Scheherzade and One Raven are both only halfway there: You have to Love the parts you like about the beloved and love as well the parts you don't like. Otherwise, its not real Love and you best be moving on. Printed this out earlier today, says it as well as any words. David Bowie from Soul Love:

Love is careless in its choosing
Sweeping over cross a baby
Love descends on those defenceless
Idiot Love will spark the fusion
Inspirations have I none
Just to touch the flaming dove
All I have is my Love of Love
And Love is not Loving


Aragorn, hope that China works out, but what you describe is exactly what it is to be a stupid American: the ones who can use every means to have more money, more power, and more things. And the Earth an all of us living creatures suffer for it. One really has to focus themselves to have an intelligent or creative or, Loving path through this mess. But you'll meet friends along the way if you go...

----------


## Chava

A spanish author once wrote; "Love is the willingnss to extend oneself". I agree with that.

----------


## yizxik

Love in the romantic sense is a biological mechanism to trap us into having sex and procreating. Love in the rational sense, is merely a sort of validated pride. 
However, love in the poetic sense is the act of making yourself and someone (or something) else better through interaction which produces something that would never have been attained without the whole-hearted adherence to one specific goal by both or all of the parties. It isn't selfish nor is it selfless; it is self-full. If you think about it, for all people who claim to have a reason to live, in a broad sense it is the word used to identify that reason. Religious people claim to love God. Married people love their spouses. When you love is the only time you feel fully transcendent and more important than you know you could ever be. Its a bird's-eye view into your own soul, whereas all of the happiness is held in sight. It is the act of completely forgetting everything that you do not and cannot have. I've never actually been in love but I'd imagine that is what it is.

----------


## Virgil

> I've never actually been in love but I'd imagine that is what it is.


Well, if you've never been in love, then what makes you such an expert?

----------


## white camellia

> Well, if you've never been in love, then what makes you such an expert?


 :FRlol:  



"love between us is something that surpassed the language of words" I forgot where I got this, but I always keep such an abstract entity of love before me. Proper silence might conceive the depth of love and preserve it as what it is. One can translate the silence into pictorial feelings. This reminds me also of some lines from Emily Dickinson:
To tell the Beauty would decrease
To state the Spell demean--
There is a syllable-less Sea
Of which it is the sign--

----------


## yizxik

> Well, if you've never been in love, then what makes you such an expert?


Does an expert on classical history need live
under the rule of a Roman emperor?

----------


## rachel

"I have little doubt that when St. George had killed the dragon he was heartily afraid of the princess." - The Victorian 

"Marriage is a duel to the death which no man of honour should decline." - Manalive 

"The whole pleasure of marriage is that it is a perpetual crisis." - "David Copperfield," 

Although I passionately believe in love being from the depths of the heart and a covenant between two hearts I also thought there was some merit in the above.  :Biggrin:

----------


## Stanislaw

Love is like the idea of Dao. (as in Dao in the Daoist sense) a sort of undescribable entity than any description does not acuratly describe it.

----------


## myself

i think love is very silly and ruins a girl's/boy's life. just the fact that you know a boy or a girl(opposite sex) can cause problems. trust me. in my school i am knowm to be a very quite girl and make no problems. then i met this guy and ever since then i lost my bestest friend and other friends which i was really close to and every one started to change. only because i spoke with him and laughed with him. ever since then i hated boys ( no offence) because they caused me problems!!!!!!!!!!!!

----------


## RobinHood3000

Now that's not quite fair. There's a joke that says, "Ever since Eve gave Adam the apple, there has been a grave misunderstanding between the sexes about gifts." Girls have laid problems galore at the guys' doorstep, but you don't see us forsaking you entirely. Many of us are content to gather and complain communally from time to time--when our significant others aren't putting the kibosh on that, too.

----------


## myself

maybe i think this way because i want to have a peacefull life!!!! i would rather stay on the sfae side of no problems than on the danger side of losing evry girl i love.
what do you think of love robinhood?

----------


## ElizabethSewall

You sound like Jo in Little Women, who didn't want her sisters to marry and leave the house. I say that with affection!

Robin is true gentleman with the ladies, as you will see.

----------


## myself

so what do you think of love?

----------


## ElizabethSewall

I think love can bring you life or make your soul die. But it is the greatest emotion I ever felt and even though it tore me apart I wouldn't change anything...

----------


## myself

i cant take pian physically or amotionally so love is not the right thing for me!!!!!
i can only love when i get married (if i ever do)

----------


## ElizabethSewall

I can understand that. I wish you happiness anyway  :Cool:

----------


## AimusSage

Not meaning to sound rude our anything, but you can't shield yourself from love. It's not something that can be controlled. You can try, you can pretend it isn't there, but it still excists. It'll make life a lot easier if you accept this. 

You say you want a peaceful life, but at the same time say are not willing to love because you are afraid of losing the love of your friends. I'll say this, if they are truly your friends, no love can break that bond. They will support you and be there for you when love is beating you down, and share your joy when love lifts you up. 

Of course, love is not without dangers, but the pain it can cause will happen anyway, even if you want a peaceful live, love is unstoppable, and when you try to turn your back to it, it will hit you in the face like a ton of bricks, walking all over you, making you feel miserable. It is much better to open up to love, and be accepting of it. It'll make it's warmth reflect of your face. It can still kick you in the face too, but at least you'll see it coming, so it won't walk over you.

Anyway, I just had to say that, only wish I could have worded it a little better.

----------


## NNoah3

> Not meaning to sound rude our anything, but you can't shield yourself from love. It's not something that can be controlled. You can try, you can pretend it isn't there, but it still excists. It'll make life a lot easier if you accept this. 
> 
> You say you want a peaceful life, but at the same time say are not willing to love because you are afraid of losing the love of your friends. I'll say this, if they are truly your friends, no love can break that bond. They will support you and be there for you when love is beating you down, and share your joy when love lifts you up. 
> 
> Of course, love is not without dangers, but the pain it can cause will happen anyway, even if you want a peaceful live, love is unstoppable, and when you try to turn your back to it, it will hit you in the face like a ton of bricks, walking all over you, making you feel miserable. It is much better to open up to love, and be accepting of it. It'll make it's warmth reflect of your face. It can still kick you in the face too, but at least you'll see it coming, so it won't walk over you.
> 
> Anyway, I just had to say that, only wish I could have worded it a little better.



WOWWWWWW!!!!!!
You simply left me without words while I was reading your post!!!!!
I totally agree with you. I believe also that those who have experienced these feelings will agree too.





> "To fear love is to fear life, and those who fear life are already three parts dead." *Bertrand Russell*

----------


## Aragorn

love between man and wife, love between parents and children, love between friends, are these different loves? or just the same love in various camouflage? 
many philosophers believe that there is a kind of justice exicts beeyong time and space. a Chinese philosopher calls it kindness. and some western philosopher say that it is knowledge. 
maybe it is love that is dominating the universe.
or god in whatever religion.  :Nod:

----------


## one_raven

myself,

It is not "love" that caused these problems for you.
It is the situation that caused them.
A bad relationship with an immature person, perhaps... Maybe so-called friends that did not treat you like a friend... Maybe you just weren't ready for a relationship yet.
I don't know the details of what happened, so I couldn't possibly say what DID cause the problems.
I CAN say, however, that "love" itself did not cause them.

If you are in a relationship that made you unhappy, and blame love, rather than the relationship, you are doing yourself a grave disservice by not taking a good, honest look at what happened so you can learn from it.
If you simply blame love, you are bound, almost guaranteed, to repeat the same mistakes.
Don't use love as a scapegoat to avoid life's problems because it simply does not work.

That's my advice.
Take it for what you may.

----------


## Natalie K

I can't believe what you have written ..... I actually thought you may be joking.
Love has no prescription. Love can not be bought. Love is down to chemistry - and i do not mean in a lab. I mean - you can't describe love. You just like someone and from there it grows into love. 
Yes we live in an era of immense capitalism - but love can not fall into this realm.
Although it is no place for me to judge, but if your girlfriend really said what you say she did about the BMW - do you really want to be with someone like that? I would rather be on my own.
Love does exist but it won't if you don't allow yourself to believe in its existence. love is probably one of the only things left in this world that is free.

----------


## The Unnamable

They all want to escape from the pain of being alive. And, most of all, from love Its no good trying to fool yourself about love. You cant fall into it like a soft job, without dirtying your hands It takes muscle and guts. And if you cant bear the thought of messing up your nice, clean soul, youd better give up the whole idea of life, and become a saint. Because youll never make it as a human being. Jimmy Porter _Look Back In Anger_

----------


## Mililalil XXIV

Love is a substantial extension of one's own being into which one's strength is freely, willingly poured, to embrace and support and secure the utmost well-being of another's whole personal essence.

----------


## myself

OK one_raven i dont really blame love for everthing that goes wrong, i blame the opposite sex( no ofence), people say they are "in love" with some one else and start a problems. thesame problems started againg today. the same friend of mine got into a fight with the same girl that dated the guy she "loves". this girl again went out with new guy my friend "loves". im really fed up of this whole "i love him and he hates me" me thing between girl and boys.

----------


## woeful painter

> Love is a substantial extension of one's own being into which one's strength is freely, willingly poured, to embrace and support and secure the utmost well-being of another's whole personal essence.



How profound! Yet holds a very sensible and critical message I have been looking for...thanks for opening my eyes...  :Thumbs Up:  

Okay! Time to put it into action!  :Cool:

----------


## RobinHood3000

Love is profound, love is magical, love is unfathomable. Love can pull a person up off the ground as if on wires, yet keeping one's feet upon the earth is critical to long-lasting, emotionally-fulfilling, adequately-hyphenated relationships.

More later.

----------


## Keltic Banshee

May sound silly but... for me, love is closing my eyes, and being able to feel the person I love, even if we're miles apart... it's never being alone, even when there is no one around... never sleeping alone again, even when there's no one to share the bed with... because I know that somewhere, he's thinking of me, as I am thinking of him. To quote one of my favourite quotes... "there is some madness in love... but there is also some reason in madness" 
Now the realistic part of me comes in and adds: it's a pity a heart can be so easily broken... because, at least for me, the wounds of betrayed love never completely heal... 

Hm... I think I'm getting to paranoical even for my paranoical way of being ^_^

----------


## chef

no it's actually right i mean to me because love is when you feel somthing for someone, and that something is so strong there could be miles between eachother but you are so close at the same time...

----------


## woeful painter

Love can never be defined no matter how much we try to, else it's magic will be lost should it be bounded by mere personal descriptions. Yet still for me, it's also immesurable, and unbounded by time and space...by flesh and bone...by any matter this whole exsitence can ever create...I don't see it as something infinite (still mathematically calculable) but something eternal...beyond everything...

And a nice definition from Banshee and Chef  :Thumbs Up:

----------


## onions

Love is what you all long to have writing so many pages about it  :Smile:

----------


## Stanislaw

> Love is what you all long to have writing so many pages about it


heh, never has the truth been summed up so acuratly.

----------


## tn2743

> Love is what *you* all long to have writing so many pages about it


"You"? I wonder if by contributing you should include yourself within "you", else you might be wrong. Lest you are willing to admit that you don't have love; then you might just be expressing yourself here. And that would be fine. I don't think that we need to be told about ourselves in here.

----------


## The Unnamable

> "You"? I wonder if by contributing you should include yourself within "you", else you might be wrong. Lest you are willing to admit that you don't have love; then you might just be expressing yourself here. And that would be fine. I don't think that we need to be told about ourselves in here.


Good for you, *tn2743*. The comment to which you are responding is the product of very little thought but a great deal of presumption. Why not argue that all the writers we discuss here are in need of love?  they write even more about it than we do. You will always get smart-arse comments from those who know very little but assume they know others. 
Signed - a man desperate for love.  :FRlol:

----------


## raxikool

> Good for you, *tn2743*. The comment to which you are responding is the product of very little thought but a great deal of presumption. Why not argue that all the writers we discuss here are in need of love?  they write even more about it than we do. You will always get smart-arse comments from those who know very little but assume they know others. 
> Signed - a man desperate for love.


hey can we get 2 know each other.

----------


## raxikool

hello, how are u doing, let get to know each other first.

----------


## The Unnamable

I'm sure the pleasure would be all yours.  :Biggrin:

----------


## IrishCanadian

Haha thats cute. I've been away for a bit (good to see you again!) so I confess to only having read the last page so far. Anyway ... "what is love?" ... C. S Lewis wrote a brillient text called The Four Loves. Its a pretty easy read and you can probably find it almost anywhere. If that doesn't suffice for what love is, try the fourth chapter of John's first letter (my personal favorite).

----------


## Bookbot

I think that english needs more words for "Love".

The "Love" that we discribe as ethereal, magical and undefinable is really infatuation. Infatuation is quite a lovely state to be in, and the more you feed it, the strongers it gets. This feeling is experienced by everyone at some point, and it is generally the jumping off point for "Love".

The next "Love" is that love that you see in couples that have been together forever. This love is born of mutual sacrifice and mutual dependancy. 

Mutual Sacrifice:
People who have this love have begun to overcome their natural self-centeredness and SHOW "Love" (the action), even when they don't FEEL "Love" (the infatuation).
The clincher here is that BOTH parties must be willing to do this.

Mutual Dependancy:
Over time, these couples are able to recognize their partner's sacrifice and be grateful for it. They also simply get used to each other, and begin to feel utterly comfortable with each other.

(And yes, "Love" absolutely includes NEEDING...if I didn't NEED my husband, why in the world would I miss him when he is gone? By definition, you cannot have love and complete independance, you must choose one or the other.)



By any definition, this girl did not love you... Someone who is that caught up with herself Can't Love. In the meantime, save up your money so you can buy a BMW for a girl who REALLY loves you! Does your mom need a new car? Wink

----------


## Asa Adams

Love to me is this:

-Flying to her home city to surprise her on her birthday. 
-Saying how much of a friend you are, when thats all she/he wants to be.
-Being there for them at that exact time their hearts break and they could not feel more alone. 
-accepting their choices in life. 
-Loving them. 

Thats what i feel. hope it helps in this forum.

----------


## cuppajoe_9

I have no idea exactly what love is, what causes it, or how it works. I doubt if anybody does.

I can tell you that the unrequited kind gets really old after a while.

----------


## blondeatheart

ah unrequited love

ay amor es una tortura

im in love :P

----------


## littleLindkvist

To me love is one of the only things you can't possible explain with any sense of logic.. 

love consist in in the very rare moment where you feel utterly happy.. a bit like meditation, several aspects of life melt together and you see the world in a different light.. 
In those moments you feel an indescribable sense of unity... feeling that way towards another human being has nothing to do with materials of the evey day life, it is much to rare for reason..

----------


## Chava

Love is an attraction. It is not a thing, it's the word we use to express a profound attraction for someone. (or thing...)

----------


## rachel

hullo Blonde, how are you kitten?
Hey Joe, miss you.
To me real true love doesn't have much to do with ourselves as being first in anything. Feeling happy,warm fuzzy feelings is to me simply having desires gratified. Babies have that feeling as soon as they are given the breast or bottle, changed, given a toy or food they desire. But that is not love.
To me love is being kind and gentle and good and thoughtful as well as supportive to another with absolutely no thought of getting something back. Viewing the other as so important and worth while that one's own desires come second.
On the other hand love, to me is also never bending the core of who I truly am and what I honestly stand for to impress another or let them have their way when it would be wrong for he/him and disatrous for me. To lose who I am is to put that person in a position of a god and then I would be incapable of showing true love to that person. I would cease to exist and merely become an extension of the other.
True love, to me, always seeks the highest and best for the other no matter what.
And meaness and spite and revenge have absolutely no place to me in the realm of true love, whether that love be directed toward a lover, friend, child, parent.

----------


## tn2743

love is more thicker than forget
more thinner than recall
more seldom than a wave is wet
more frequent than to fail

it is most mad and moonly
and less it shall unbe
than all the sea which only
is deeper than the sea

love is less always than to win
less never than alive
less bigger than the least begin
less littler than forgive

it is most sane and sunly
and more it cannot die
than all the sky which only
is higher than the sky

ee cummings

----------


## rachel

oh sweet guy,
that is very pretty.
hope you are well.

----------


## Virgil

Oh boy!!  :Banana:  Both TN and Rachel! Hi guys.  :Wave:

----------


## Anonymous Angel

A lot of what has been said here is absolutely true. Love itself probably does exist outside of what we know as reality, and it surfaces in true caring-not just about human beings but about the entirety of our lives in general. Obvious you view love in a more natural state, meaning loving another human being. Your ex-girlfriend seems to take a more materialistic view of life, in that love cannot exist without things to support her internal value structure. I'm sure it's not that you didn't share love, but that your value structures are so different that it was difficult to maintain love based on each other's view of life. Don't worry. There's someone, maybe many someones, out there who will share your value system and there's no harm in waiting, learning, and trying people on in the process of finding them. It will be worth your wait to know that the person you are with will share not only your life, but will reflect your values and feelings in a more appropriate manner.  :Wink:

----------


## crazy baby

> I am from China, I am still in university. I was wanderring in the net yesterday night, and happened to enter this forum accidently. 
> I have a queastion for you guys. I really need your help. 
> my question is......
> does love exist? if it exists, then what is it like?
> my girl freind left me yesterday. she said she's out to look for a rich man and she said if i could give her a BMW right now, she would come back right now.
> we have been together for two years. 
> really? two years' loving can not go beyond a BMW?


Love is a name we give to certain "phenomena". It is more about a name, a definition we use to identify those certain feelings, than a proof for the existence of something. 

Does love exist? It depends on the definition, on your definition.
That girl you like has a very different one from what we are used to read in books, watch in movies or see from people around us, but you must have your own one. 

If yours is the same with heirs, then try to improve yourself, try to get what she wants, but if yours is different, then just let her leave. You'll surely find someone fitting to your heart.  :Smile:

----------


## Kouchy

The word love:overused, under-rated and Falsely claimed. But the emotion? A point of discussion since the beginning of human life....I still haven't figured it out. i don't know how to describe it, but i do believe that love exists and we love everyone at different capacities. Some more truly than others. Maybe this girl couldn't understand the capacity of your love. Or, maybe she did not have the capacity to love you completely without outside factors. Either way, i'm sure you will find someone who will love you as strongly as you love them.

----------


## muhsin

It simply means a natural feeling of likeness toward something.

----------


## RobinHood3000

I disagree. Naturally liking something is attraction, not love. The difference, as oh-so-many can attest, is considerable.

----------


## thevintagepiper

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends. 

That is love, to me. 
As Rachel said, the verses in Corinthians define it as well.

----------


## Mary Sue

Love is a magnetic pull, that which draws us to other like beings. But when it's based wholly on EROS it can't last, being just the biological urge of one body towards another. No permanence there. For as the body alters with time and may become boring in its very familiarity, so interest diminishes. Whereas AGAPE is the higher urge, the pull of one kindred mind/soul to another that only gets better through shared experience. 

Message to Aragorn: Your ex girl friend, who wants a BMW, isn't really "into" love. At least not at this point in her life. She's after status symbols, material things that will make her feel good about herself. She needs to grow up, emotionally, before she's ready for a deeper connection. So don't "cast your pearls before swine" any longer. Keep looking. Your real soul-mate is out there somewhere and when the time is right, you'll find her.

----------


## mono

Though I will not attempt to define 'love' in its complexity vs. simplicity, and I have avoided this thread for that reason, I remember reading some such poem (and I cannot remember who wrote it), that went something like --

Love is . . .

Lessons
Of
Venus
Embodied.

 :Smile:

----------


## Fat29

On an individual level about love between two persons (bf and gf), love is about two person sharing a common soul. When two persons no longer share that common soul, then the strain of keeping the love relationship becomes more and more problematic.

Your gf has her reasons for her choice and she has her needs and wants. If you cannot provide for her and she need or want what she desires badly enough, then she will move on. To love someone is to share her soul. If you love her, help her to achieve what she desires. If you cannot help her, the useful and gracious thing to do is to give her the freedom to pursue her needs/ wants. 

Just my humble views about love.

----------


## grace86

I do not think that I can be taken seriously today. I saw the heading for this thread and started singing "What is love? Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more"

I hope that people are familiar with this song because otherwise I just look kind of funny. 

Don't know if I answered this one already, but I will come back to it.

----------


## RobinHood3000

> On an individual level about love between two persons (bf and gf), love is about two person sharing a common soul. When two persons no longer share that common soul, then the strain of keeping the love relationship becomes more and more problematic.
> 
> Your gf has her reasons for her choice and she has her needs and wants. If you cannot provide for her and she need or want what she desires badly enough, then she will move on. To love someone is to share her soul. If you love her, help her to achieve what she desires. If you cannot help her, the useful and gracious thing to do is to give her the freedom to pursue her needs/ wants. 
> 
> Just my humble views about love.


True or not, I don't think the girlfriend had any particular interest in sharing Aragorn's soul.

----------


## Madhuri

I understand that nothing happens without a reason; and we have heard Aragorn's story so far, but not from the girl's story (which is not possible in this case), having said this I am not trying to take the girl's side, just trying to analyse why the girl might have done such a thing to Aragorn.

It is quite possible that the girl did not have the courage to bring up the real issue in the relation and made up this execuse for breaking off. And how can a person let go someone with whom they have been for about two years just because one day they said they wanted material things. I sometimes wonder how could he accept such an execuse to break off whithout going deeper into the matter.

So far as my experience goes, long relations dont break off that easily and such are certainly not the reasons (it might be from the outside, but I think that there might be something that is beyond the car that the girl demanded).

It might be that, if the real reason was told Aragon must have started feeling bad about himself and she let him think bad of her instead of him. And I also think that certain times people dont disclose the real reason as they are aware that the situation instead of improving might become worse and discussing wont lead to any conclusion, or to simply not start the pain and hurt associated with a break off resulting from the real reason. The consequences of the break off are very evident in this case because obviously Aragorn is feeling bad, but he also has this at the back off his mind that he was not the one who did it (which could exactly be what the girl wanted him to think), and maybe he is getting some comfort from this feeling of being the one who did not betray.

These are some of the thoughts that came to my mind, I might be completely wrong.

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## Fat29

Love is about sharing a common soul. If the gf don't share Aragon's soul or vice versa, then it brings to the point that there is no common ground. Hence, love becomes problematic if both parties try to carry on the relationship. May all find their soul-mates. Regards.




> True or not, I don't think the girlfriend had any particular interest in sharing Aragorn's soul.

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## caesar

You people think you know, eh?

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## PierreGringoire

Love in relationships can be described as "getting along". True Love is conceived by true Justice. One cannot love if one does not have the components of justice figured out. And neither can the two virtues be seperated.

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## apple jiang

I quite agree with Fzeko' opinion.

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## AllisonForbes

Love exists outside our cognition or participation in it. It is quite possible to be loved by one or many people and to never return those feelings. And the reverse is true as well. Love does not depend on our seeking nor our individual concept of it. 

Love, seems to me, to be a choice by individuals to embrace and learn. It is putting our self gratification aside for the greater benefit of the person or thing we seek. It is possible to love things, ideologies, people, places and to love them to such an extent, we are willing to die for them -- which is the ultimate expression of denying one's self. 

Love is not automatic, it is experienced from another, then we choose whether we wish to continue the experience and love others. The purity of love is in how much of our self/desires/motivations we are willing to give up in order to serve/care for/protect/spend time with an entity that is not part of us.

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