# Teaching > General Teaching >  Prostitution: English major styles

## Charles Darnay

The title may be a bit misleading.....admittedly an attempt to grab attention - read on.

I came across something today that I may be over-reacting to, but wanted to get the opinion of people who's opinion on this sort of matter I respect.
(so much lead in, I know!)

Someone recommended I check this out after I mentioned I'm looking for ways to make money while trying to find a more permanent job than I have: 

http://essayexperts.ca/

Essentially, it`s an essay writing service. Students submit requests and writers pretty much do their essays for them. Now these essays are meant to be "models" for the students to then emulate in order to create their own essay...but who are we kidding? Students pay for an essay which they can then pass off on their own - that is what I'm getting from this. So really, isn't this just prostitution for English majors/writers?

Has anyone come across or used such a service? Am I really out of line here with my thinking?

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## Delta40

As an undergraduate, using this service could result in expulsion, certainly a fail for the unit the paper was submitted. I believe it comes under the umbrella of plagiarism, although I have heard some students use it but uni's are privy to these services as well so personally, I would never risk it. I know one tutor who picked up on it simply because of the distinct difference in writing style and referencing.

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## stlukesguild

There are also special websites employed by education institutions that utilize Google-like search capabilities to check against the possible use of such services.

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## My2cents

I'd do it. But I'd hesitate to encourage others to do it for the obvious ethical issues doing it raises. Then there's paranoia, the what if a customer decides to sue the company and you're somehow dragged into it despite the company's assurances that nothing like that would ever happen.

But again, speaking for myself, if they're willing to pay good money for what I might be able to do fairly well and might even enjoy doing, I would have no moral scruples for prostituting myself.

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## Buh4Bee

I'd do it also. Why should you feel guilty? If the business model is as you described, then I'd think of it that way. You are not responsible for idiot students and their ploys to cheat/plagiarize or simply flunk out. If it's a legitimate gig, with a real pay check and you need the money... But the other question is do you have other alternatives like tutoring at a firm for university test prep? Something along these lines can be lucrative as well.

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## Delta40

I abhor cheats. They disgust me and deserve everything that is coming to them.

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## zoolane

> The title may be a bit misleading.....admittedly an attempt to grab attention - read on.
> 
> I came across something today that I may be over-reacting to, but wanted to get the opinion of people who's opinion on this sort of matter I respect.
> (so much lead in, I know!)
> 
> Someone recommended I check this out after I mentioned I'm looking for ways to make money while trying to find a more permanent job than I have: 
> 
> http://essayexperts.ca/
> 
> ...


The whole idea as far make money very affords, but on other hands if the "customer" uses this service all time pure because of social life or lazy then fail because they did not understand the purpose of the essays then that stupid fault.

I would not feel comfortable used this so called service because I feel that I would be cheat and plus it un ethic if you not bright enough to do work yourself then you should not be here.

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## tonywalt

> I abhor cheats. They disgust me and deserve everything that is coming to them.


The world is full of private jets with a bunch of cheats sitting back drinking champagne. They do get what's coming to them and it is absolution and a life unreachable for the other 99%.

We can forget about natural justice or Karma. As for me, I model after Robin Hood.

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## Buh4Bee

But on occasion, some do get what's coming to them. There is no guaranteed absolution.

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## Scheherazade

While at university, I was twice offered money to take the English proficiency exam in someone else's place. 

The amounts offered on both occassions were enough to cover my expenses for a term and, being a student who relied on scholarships to carry on with my own studies, I was admittedly very tempted but declined on both occassions and kept studying harder not to lose my scholarships.

I don't think anyone should do anything that might cause them a moral twinge now or later.

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## ftil

It is interesting to see how different culture view cheating. I have the advantage of living and studying in two cultures. When I studied in my country, we were helping each other and with determination we cheated if it was necessary. Professors knew it and it was a matter who was smarter.  :Ihih:  Well, our creativity flourished and studying was pleasure and fun. I didnt have the same experience when I studied in North America. Students were highly competitive and cheating was out of question. I only enjoyed it because I chose a field that I was passionate about. I dont like competition but cooperation. Well, moral codes are different in different cultures.

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## Buh4Bee

> The title may be a bit misleading.....admittedly an attempt to grab attention - read on.
> 
> I came across something today that I may be over-reacting to, but wanted to get the opinion of people who's opinion on this sort of matter I respect.
> (so much lead in, I know!)
> 
> Someone recommended I check this out after I mentioned I'm looking for ways to make money while trying to find a more permanent job than I have: 
> 
> http://essayexperts.ca/
> 
> ...


I attended a highly competitive high school. Children were expelled for using such a service as the one aforementioned. Cheating is very taboo and highly disapproved in the society I grew up in.

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## ftil

> I attended a highly competitive high school. Children were expelled for using such a service as the one aforementioned. Cheating is very taboo and highly disapproved in the society I grew up in.


Yes, different cultures, different values. I dont think that it is that much about cheating as it is about cooperation. I helped many times my friends. I didnt feel guilty as I wanted them to finish university. On the contrary, I was happy as they graduated. It more about competition that is not healthy. My family doctors son studied here . After first year, he decided to study in my country. I told him that he made a right decision as he hated studying here. Next year, he will finish medical school and he has been thriving studying there. It is cooperation that makes a huge difference. Secondly, I have never seen at university any student who suffered from depression. A few were stressed out as they wanted to stay at university. Others enjoyed studying, learning, and having fun. I can't say that about North America. We may ask what is more important mental health and pleasure of studying or competition that affect mental and emotional states of students.  :Biggrin5:

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## billl

How can we cooperate if there's no cheating?  :Nod:  :Nod:  If you love the subject, you will cheat. :Ladysman:  :Ladysman:  Some cultures  :Wave:  :Cornut:  :Cornut:  prefer students who don't use other people for writing their essays.  :Out:  :Yikes:  :Yikes:  Is that a good idea  :Idea:  :Confused5:  :Rolleyes:  if we want everyone to write good essays?  :Yikes:  :Yikes:  :Puke:  :Smilielol5:  Maybe the online essays are quite good.  :Thumbs Up:  And there's no  :Boxing Smiley: competition :Boxing Smiley:  .  :Cheers2:  It's positive.  :Driving:  :Banana:  :Lurk5:  :Banana:  BUYING ESSAYS IS COOPERATION YOU SILLIES lol  :FRlol:  :FRlol:  I know about my experience :CoolgleamA: , and so you shouldn't believe yours so much--you might be surprised :Tongue:  :Brow: . I know I have seen many people who tried to understand their own way :Smash:  :Crash:  :Crash:  :Rofl: --but they should use other people to tell them. :Cool:  Don't compete. :Cool:  You might be wrong.  :Dupe:  :Chevy Anim:  I will think my own way.  :Crazy:  :Crazy:  :Crazy:  :Crazy:  I have studied this and other things.  :Auto:  :Ihih:  :Rage:  I used essays and the other students did it and I didn't have to compete.  :Hurray:  :Hurray:  :Hurray:  :Hurray:  :Hurray:  Did you use the other students' work?  :Brow:  You should listen to me.  :Cuss:  :Cuss:  Maybe :Crazy:  I am helping  :Gnorsi: you cheat  :CoolgleamA: with life?  :Yikes:  :Thumbs Up:  :Ciappa:  :Brow:  :Brow:  :Cryin:  No problem. :Biggrinjester:

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## Mutatis-Mutandis

I definitely don't have the balls to cheat on that sort of level. I admit I have snuck in cheat sheets for exams in math and foreign language classes, and never a moral twinge have I felt. But even that made me nervous. I think it's funny how many are willing to cheat on this scale to seemingly alleviate stress, because if I did, I would be much more of a nervous wreck than if I just buckled down and actually did the work. 

As to if I would write a paper for someone . . . maybe. I'm not a fan of writing papers, even if I'm good at it, so the pay would have to be pretty good. I think if it was something like an engineering major just trying to get through a crappy English class, I'd do it, but I wouldn't for any English majors. 

Also, I think it's funny that students even try this, as any teacher who pays the least bit of attention to their students' papers should be able to spot a paper written by someone else quite easily. 9 times out of 10 it's going to be the students who are bad at writing papers who try this, and when a paper comes in without the usual horrible grammar and structure, it's a pretty big red flag.

P.S. Bill: That has to be the most annoying post I've ever seen. It doesn't even make since, sans emoticons.

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## ftil

> I definitely don't have the balls to cheat on that sort of level. I admit I have snuck in cheat sheets for exams in math and foreign language classes, and never a moral twinge have I felt. But even that made me nervous. I think it's funny how many are willing to cheat on this scale to seemingly alleviate stress, because if I did, I would be much more of a nervous wreck than if I just buckled down and actually did the work.


 I was nervous when I cheated on exam. Everybody did as it was a waste of time to study but some of students werent nervous at all. But I was never nervous when I helped friends during the exam. I guess I didnt feel that it was I who cheated. it was a higher purpose.

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## Scheherazade

> How can we cooperate if there's no cheating?  If you love the subject, you will cheat. Some cultures  prefer students who don't use other people for writing their essays.  Is that a good idea  if we want everyone to write good essays?  Maybe the online essays are quite good.  And there's no competition .  It's positive.  BUYING ESSAYS IS COOPERATION YOU SILLIES lol  I know about my experience, and so you shouldn't believe yours so much--you might be surprised. I know I have seen many people who tried to understand their own way--but they should use other people to tell them. Don't compete. You might be wrong.  I will think my own way.  I have studied this and other things.  I used essays and the other students did it and I didn't have to compete.  Did you use the other students' work?  You should listen to me.  Maybe I am helping you cheat with life?  No problem.


I can only reply by saying:  :Smilielol5: 

Thank you, Bill! That's one of the funniest things I have read on here in a long while.



> ...Everybody did as it was a waste of time to study...


Music to any teacher's ears! And since all the kids were doing it, it was OK to do so, I guess.

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## ftil

> Music to any teacher's ears! And since all the kids were doing it, it was OK to do so, I guess.



I was not talking about kids. lol Nobody was studying it as it was impossible to understand it. It was a theory that has failed anyway. After all, they have done a good job to teach us questioning and critical thinking. You cant fool that much university students.

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## Jack of Hearts

> I don't think anyone should do anything that might cause them a moral twinge now or later.


That's about the long and short of it. It's about the wisest thing this reader has ever seen in a thread about an ethical question (granted, the bar isn't often high).

There's probably no karma coming around again. People who cheat will probably never 'get what's coming to them.' Blessed souls, those who can look back and think 'I killed. I stole. I did it for wealth.' or similar without hating themselves for the act. Maybe they go their whole lives without a look backward, leaving you in the dust with your pretty, ethical thoughts.





J

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## Charles Darnay

> That's about the long and short of it. It's about the wisest thing this reader has ever seen in a thread about an ethical question (granted, the bar isn't often high).
> 
> There's probably no karma coming around again. People who cheat will probably never 'get what's coming to them.' Blessed souls, those who can look back and think 'I killed. I stole. I did it for wealth.' or similar without hating themselves for the act. Maybe they go their whole lives without a look backward, leaving you in the dust with your pretty, ethical thoughts.
> 
> J


Story of my life - the being left in the dust with ethical thoughts bit, not the guiltless murder part. I am not "holy" or "righteous", but I have an absurd set of principles that I stick to and, even when horribly inconvenienced, I cannot find my way to let go of.

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## Jack of Hearts

Cheers, amigo. Here's to being losers.

The upshot is that this reader probably wouldn't trade. That is, if every element within a person precariously comes together to make the person who she or he is, like a walker on a tightrope, and there's a risk of losing some essential 'person-ness' by lack of the smallest part...

Well, there have been experiences and there is a vision of living that this reader wouldn't want to give up.



"The path to salvation is narrow and as difficult to walk as a razor's edge."-W. Somerset Maugham


... taking salvation in a non traditional sense, anyways. More aesthetic than deontological.






J

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## anishastrologer

i don't think you are over reacting. this is a way to encourage plagiarism and plagiarism is the worst crime that a literature student or a literature lover can commit.

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## My2cents

It's easy to be kind when we're well off. I think one could say same thing about being morally righteous.

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## Ecurb

University students are attending school volunatarily, and often sign honor pledges. However, grammar school and high school are compulsory (here in the U.S.). Why should students who might get punished for failing to complete an assignment have any compunctions about cheating? Why should they buy into the school's rules, which they had no hand in creating, and are imposed on them from above?

If I were in high school or middle school and one of my pals said, "Whoops! I forgot my homework! Mean ol' Mrs. X is going to scream at me! Help a bro out and let me copy!" I would have no hesitation (except the fear of getting caught). Helping a friend is more important than complying with school rules.




> i don't think you are over reacting. this is a way to encourage plagiarism and plagiarism is the worst crime that a literature student or a literature lover can commit.


Oh, come off it! Strict intellectual property laws (including copyright laws) impinge on freedom of speech (obviously). What constitutes plagiarism? Should people own ideas, or words?

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## ftil

> If I were in high school or middle school and one of my pals said, "Whoops! I forgot my homework! Mean ol' Mrs. X is going to scream at me! Help a bro out and let me copy!" I would have no hesitation (except the fear of getting caught). Helping a friend is more important than complying with school rules.



Absolutely! Helping people is an act of kindness. There are more important values that cant be broken then school rules. 






> Oh, come off it! Strict intellectual property laws (including copyright laws) impinge on freedom of speech (obviously). What constitutes plagiarism? Should people own ideas, or words?



Thats a good question if people should own words or idea. Do they write to share their ideas and souls with others or do they write for more selfish reasons?
There is also an important issue of freedom of speech.


*We have a natural right to make use of our pens as of our tongue, at our peril, risk and hazard.* 
*~ Voltaire, Dictionnaire Philosophique, 1764*


*I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
~ Voltaire*

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## Charles Darnay

> University students are attending school volunatarily, and often sign honor pledges. However, grammar school and high school are compulsory (here in the U.S.). Why should students who might get punished for failing to complete an assignment have any compunctions about cheating? Why should they buy into the school's rules, which they had no hand in creating, and are imposed on them from above?
> 
> If I were in high school or middle school and one of my pals said, "Whoops! I forgot my homework! Mean ol' Mrs. X is going to scream at me! Help a bro out and let me copy!" I would have no hesitation (except the fear of getting caught). Helping a friend is more important than complying with school rules.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, come off it! Strict intellectual property laws (including copyright laws) impinge on freedom of speech (obviously). What constitutes plagiarism? Should people own ideas, or words?


Plagiarism and copyright laws are not strictly the same thing, even if there is overlap.

As for copyright laws: while some (particularly in the US) seem to be a bit over the top - although I don't believe they cross the blurred "freedom of speech" law - people do own words and ideas. Writing an article/book is like inventing a product. You mix your labour with it and you should be the benefactor of inancial gain from the work (not to get all Marxist on this). 

However, this is not what plagiarism is about, to me at least. It's not a matter of "student x is stealing someone's ideas" but more "student x is passing off someone's ideas as their own." This lack of thought and effort put into any work is a slap in the face to any teacher who has to read a plagiarized essay/assignment. 

As for your point about up to high school being compulsory - yes it is true that there are people who "Don't buy into the school thing" - but should we let them cheat and pass them through with high grades? I have seen this happen and I have seen the university systems clogged up because these people who didn't give a damn about compulsory school feel that they also need to do the voluntary school (university/college) What then? Are they going to plagiarize in university? Or will they be in a position where they don't have the skills to succeed because they never put the time and effort into the work?

No, I don't agree that plagiarism is the worst crime for a lit student or lit. lover (that title belongs to burning books for me) - but it is a serious issue, and one that, as a teacher, I take a strong stance against.

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## ftil

> However, this is not what plagiarism is about, to me at least. It's not a matter of "student x is stealing someone's ideas" but more "student x is passing off someone's ideas as their own." This lack of thought and effort put into any work is a slap in the face to any teacher who has to read a plagiarized essay/assignment.




It sounds that it is more about a teacher then passing someone ideas as their own.  :Wink5:  I woudnt have any problem if somebody used my ideas and made a better use than I. But I am not a teacher. 




> No, I don't agree that plagiarism is the worst crime for a lit student or lit. lover (that title belongs to burning books for me) - but it is a serious issue, and one that, as a teacher, I take a strong stance against.



Oh, I wish we had only that kind of serious issues. I would be more excited to hear how teachers teach critical and independent thinking. Perhaps, we wouldnt have a problem with plagiarism in the first place. 

*Books won't stay banned. They won't burn. Ideas won't go to jail. In the long run of history, the censor and the inquisitor have always lost. The only weapon against bad ideas is better ideas.

~ Alfred Whitney Griswold, New York times, 24 February 1959*

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## Shalot

It sounds like a fun job to have. I was listening to a news story about all the unemployed college graduates who majored in English and Psychology and Philosophy who have these student loans to pay for. In this economy, who can afford morals?  :Tongue:  

(Hello Shalot it appears that you have not posted on our forums in several weeks, why not take a few moments to ask a question, help provide a solution or just engage in a conversation with another member in any one of our forums?)

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## Ecurb

It is reasonable for teachers like Charles Darnay to ferret out cheating and refuse to give credit for plagiarized work. The teachers are a voluntary part of the system that calls such plagiarism “cheating”. However, from the STUDENT’S perspective, the moral imperatives are less clear. I’ll grant that plagiarism is a form of lying (and thus against the Ten Commandments). However, there are many situations where lying is morally acceptable, even mandatory. The student who is trying to skate through school without getting punished is different in degree from the Jew trying to skate through the Warsaw Ghetto in WW2 without getting punished, but not in kind. Neither has a moral obligation to follow the rules imposed upon him without his consent.

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## Ecurb

Obviously, Charles, you are right that people do "own" words and ideas, given our current intellectual property laws. I wasn't clear. I meant to suggest that there is no "natural" reason people SHOULD own words or ideas. Freedom of speech and thought is clearly in conflict with intellectual property law. We create intellectual property laws to allow writers, inventors, et. al. to make money from their creations, because we think that there is a value in doing so that outweighs the value of allowing free speech and thought. I don't think we should abandon all intellectual property rights -- but as a supporter of free speech I think we should interpret such rights narrowly, and limit them to the realm of business and finance.

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## Ecurb

> No, I don't agree that plagiarism is the worst crime for a lit student or lit. lover (that title belongs to burning books for me) - but it is a serious issue, and one that, as a teacher, I take a strong stance against.


Personally, I think burning people is worse than burning books (and I am a lit. lover).

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## Charles Darnay

> Personally, I think burning people is worse than burning books (and I am a lit. lover).


see, I thought we were keeping it confined to "crimes of the literary world" Yes burning people is pretty bad - although there are some people who I would choose to burn over certain books.

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## qimissung

I couldn't do it. If I write something I want it to be mine, and the idea of turning it over to some shallow, self-serving idiot cheater makes me queasy.

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## Ecurb

> I couldn't do it. If I write something I want it to be mine, and the idea of turning it over to some shallow, self-serving idiot cheater makes me queasy.


How about turning it over to some sophisticated, generous, brilliant cheater? How would that make you feel?

In addition, I think the "If I write something I want it to be mine" is silly. Surely you want people to READ what you've written, and when they do the words are no longer "yours". They are shared by the author and the reader.

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## ftil

> I couldn't do it. If I write something I want it to be mine, and the idea of turning it over to some shallow, self-serving idiot cheater makes me queasy.


LOL! It sounds that you dont consider the possibility that somebody can use your idea and take to the highs you cant imagine. I guess everything goes back to self confidence. If we trust ourselves that we we create more and better .we can share our ideas with an open heart.

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## billl

> LOL! It sounds that you don’t consider the possibility that somebody can use your idea and take to the highs you can’t imagine. I guess everything goes back to self confidence. If we trust ourselves that we we create more and better ….we can share our ideas with an open heart.


LOL? You're laughing? Then you act as if the other person must have a confidence issue? Then you trumpet your heart? Enough emotional judo. (Or is it, quite?) I can't decide if I should use an LOL here--but I will question whether you've _considered the possibility_ you might be trying to get a rush out of cheaply shaming people on an internet forum.

No, the subject of intellectual property is more interesting than insecure people vs. people endlessly giving to each other. There is a value to giving credit where it's due, and it's worth considering whether or not you believe that the creativity of the human individual should be valued and acknowledged, and how that should be done, in which cases, etc. None of this means someone shouldn't be able to use the ideas of others, or make new and better ideas.

_In the context of education_, it's about encouraging creativity, of course. People should be able to _do better_ than simply track down some essay and claim it as their own. Finding sources, though, is a skill--and sources can be _pointed to_ in one's work, and used to create a new perspective on some issue, or to find a new solution to a problem, etc. It's not about insecurity. And, surely, (outside of some Library Science course work, I suppose) if we want students to practice thinking and writing for themselves, we wouldn't be satisfied with them simply producing _another person's_ essay, whether it was attributed or not. (If I type LOL here, do you think more people viewing the thread will agree with me? Remember, the LOL weapon is here for all of us to share and take to new heights...) 

_Generally_, though, if you want to share, you of course are free to. And a good system of intellectual property legislation would recognize that all protections should be _balanced_, not excessive. Absolutely barring access and use by others should be pretty rare. Also, methods and levels of compensation would need to be calibrated wisely (ie. don't just effectively let media corporations do it). Protections that are too ornerous (excessive red-tape, excessive fees) make the creativity less useful to society, and are thus counterproductive, and so this issue also needs to figure into the balancing.

There are some gray areas, and certainly a blind eye would probably be turned against some peculiarities and minor infractions that would inevitably pop up in a system that would seem impossible to perfect to everyone's complete satisfaction.

But we are people, not robots trying to construct simple and robot-like modes of interaction--we are designed to live among gray areas. Individuals have value (in my opinion), and boundary-less, unattributed, and devalued sharing of individual contribution seems an anal-retentive way of simplifying things, and making more primitive forms of bare-eyed "noticing" and "finding"_ more valuable_ than the more uniquely-human versions that reside in individual perspective and individual synthesis.

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## ftil

> LOL? You're laughing? Then you act as if the other person must have a confidence issue? Then you trumpet your heart? Enough emotional judo. (Or is it, quite?) I can't decide if I should use an LOL here--but I will question whether you've _considered the possibility_ you might be trying to get a rush out of cheaply shaming people on an internet forum.


 No, I didnt intend to shame. I never do that! But it sounds that it triggered your shame. Sorry, but it is your issue then, and please, dont project your issues and blame others for it. If you carefully read the post I responded to, you will understand why I was laughing. I have chosen to laugh rather than being judgmental.  :Tongue:

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## Jack of Hearts

> I couldn't do it. If I write something I want it to be mine, and the idea of turning it over to some shallow, self-serving idiot cheater makes me queasy.


This reader thinks there's something to this. Maybe because when you create something it is always yours and when other people assert the illusion of any kind of ownership it is intensely alienating. The creation essentially is you, for that matter, a representation of the 'internal' you in the actual world. 

And *billl*, like most of your posts here... well, pearls before swine. It often feels like what you try to say deserves a better outlet than an internet forum.







J

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## Ecurb

I agree with Billl that intellectual property is an interesting subject. However, Jack of Hearts opinion that The creation essentially is you, for that matter, a representation of the 'internal' you in the actual world.... is irrelevant to whether intellectual property rights should be protected. Lets look at a few simple examples: 

1) You sing a song in the shower.
2) A garage band sings a song at a party. They got $75 for playing there.
3) A bar band plays a song in a set in a bar.
4) A big show in Las Vegas plays a song.

Lets assume the song is under copyright. Who should pay a royalty? (Since, as I said earlier, I support free speech, I would suggest only 4 should, although 3 and maybe 2 are supposed to under current law (I think, although they probably never collect). 

All property rights involve nothing more than the right of one person to limit the freedom of other people. I you own a house, if other people try to walk in your yard, or sleep in your house you can call the police and have them hauled off to jail, for example. Copyrights and patents limit freedom in a similar way. So if we think freedom is a good thing, we should limit it only for a good reason. Of course in the case of intellectual property, we limit freedom to allow inventors and artists to make a living by selling their protected works. Im not against that at all, but we shouldnt make the mistaken claim that property has any bearing on what is essentially you. Instead, it simply allows the property owner to limit the freedom of others.

I remember the band (I forget which one) that objected to one of its songs being used in support of some conservative candidate. Thats the kind of egregious misuse of property rights to which I object. If the user buys the CD (or whatever it is) fair and square, theres no reason why the seller should be able to limit its use. They should own some economic protection, but whats next? Can they sue someone who plays the song in his car, because they disapprove of fossil fuel consumption?

Patents encourage creativity. However, patented drugs that could save millions of lives in Africa and cost pennies to make are withheld, for fear they will be diverted back to lucrative markets in the U.S. and Europe. In general scientists see further than their predecessors because they stand on the shoulders of giants. Intellectual pursuit is a cooperative endeavor.

Ive moved on from cheating and plagiarism  mainly because I think intellectual property issues are interesting. Obviously Billl is correct that the student learns more from writing an essay than from plagiarizing it. I dont deny that. But the options arent always writing a decent essay or plagiarizing one. They might be plagiarizing an essay or failing to turn one in, and having the teacher embarrass you in front of the class. Some kids might face a beating at home if they dont get a C. There are all sorts of excuses for cheating that I see as reasonable. Maybe a good student has had some personal crisis and wants to slide by, just this once. Minor indiscretions, that harm nobody and protect some child from emotional or physical harm, dont seem so bad to me.

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## Jack of Hearts

That's right. *Jack of Hearts* wasn't preparing discourse for the overarching argument, and has no desire to (having largely ignored it- which to disdain more, academia or the exchanges that imitate it?).





J

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## ftil

> Obviously Billl is correct that the student learns more from writing an essay than from plagiarizing it. I dont deny that. But the options arent always writing a decent essay or plagiarizing one. They might be plagiarizing an essay or failing to turn one in, and having the teacher embarrass you in front of the class. Some kids might face a beating at home if they dont get a C. There are all sorts of excuses for cheating that I see as reasonable. Maybe a good student has had some personal crisis and wants to slide by, just this once. Minor indiscretions, that harm nobody and protect some child from emotional or physical harm, dont seem so bad to me.


You have brought very good points. I agree that there are many reasons why students choose to plagiarize. The educational system is far from being perfect. There are students who dont have any interest in literature and writing but they are great in math or physics, or perhaps, they will be a good computer programmer, doctor, or electrician. But they have to finish high school.
Life is not black or white.

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## Ecurb

> That's right. *Jack of Hearts* wasn't preparing discourse for the overarching argument, and has no desire to (having largely ignored it- which to disdain more, academia or the exchanges that imitate it?).
> J


If you can't be bothered to engage in the discussion, can't you just plagiarize something? At least that way, we'd keep the communication flowing.

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## Jack of Hearts

> If you can't be bothered to engage in the discussion, can't you just plagiarize something? At least that way, we'd keep the communication flowing.


Haha, classic.

But seriously, must bow out now. There are others interested in having the discussion, even if this reader is not. He just came in to empathize with and express something regarding *qimissung*'s post. And apparently give *bill* street cred for some reason.






J

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## qimissung

> How about turning it over to some sophisticated, generous, brilliant cheater? How would that make you feel?
> 
> In addition, I think the "If I write something I want it to be mine" is silly. Surely you want people to READ what you've written, and when they do the words are no longer "yours". They are shared by the author and the reader.


Yes, Ecurb, I do understand the interchange between writer and reader-but that's not what this thread is about. The only question being discussed is that of writing something in order to sell it to someone who plans to say they wrote it. Under those circumstances my answer stands.




> LOL! It sounds that you don’t consider the possibility that somebody can use your idea and take to the highs you can’t imagine. I guess everything goes back to self confidence. If we trust ourselves that we we create more and better ….we can share our ideas with an open heart.


Well, of course I would prefer to be the one taking an idea to highs heretofore unimagined, but back to the main point...

Have you ever seen the movie "Finding Forrester"? In it a young man is given the first couple of paragraphs of a novel (it's given to him by the author) and from that he proceeds to write a short story (I think) which wins a prize. He is then accused of plagerism. It all ends well, but the point I am making is the generosity of the author in sharing his work with the novice writer and what the young writer then did with it.

A lot of rap music nowadays also "sample" or take a portion of other musicians music to create something of their own.

All art builds on other existing art. Nothing is created in a vacuum. I get that-and thrive on it as an artist (of sorts). 

Again, this thread is not about that. It is about someone who, with the permission of another, passes off their work as his/hers. Not the same thing at all. I mainly object because of the sheer laziness of it all. To even suggest that it is remotely similar in nature to the act of creation is almost sacreligious to me.

Billl, your rebuttal was a thing of beauty, and I would like to thank you and Jack of Hearts for your show of support. I have always depended on the kindness of strangers, as Blanche Dubois once said.  :Smile:

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## ftil

> Y
> 
> 
> 
> Well, of course I would prefer to be the one taking an idea to highs heretofore unimagined, but back to the main point...


You can relax then. If somebody will take your idea.you will create a better one. 

My last point is that we didnt have these rules, for example, 100 years ago. They didnt need that. Humans dont change that much. Only rules that.we may accept without questioning.

As Alan Watts said, 
Insecure society are the most intolerant.So unsure of the validity of their game rules. Everybody must play the rule. We become more conformist..Everybody is equally inferior.  :Tongue:

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## The Comedian

I couldn't do it -- it completely undermines educational legitimacy. I mean, one of my jobs as a teacher is to know (as best I can) what it is that students know. This basic premise is the bedrock of grade assessment and value.

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## Ecurb

If we think the “grade assessment and value” system a worthy one, you are correct. However, as I pointed out, not all students DO think that the teacher’s “grade assessment” is a legitimate method of rating, categorizing, and placing them in tracts. I have sympathy for these opinions. 

That being the case, qimissung I’m not sure the “sheer laziness” of copying merits your objections. If Mozart copied a Physics Lab report, because he was too busy writing symphonies to bother with writing boring physics lab reports, but needed to pass the class or get punished, we can hardly think him “lazy”. Rather than laziness, it’s simply a matter of the student having different priorities from the teachers. I’ll grant that in most cases the priority might be playing baseball, or watching movies, or making out with one’s girlfriend rather than writing symphonies – but I sympathize with someone who would rather play baseball than write an English essay. There was a time – long before my participation at Lit Forum – where that would have been true of me.

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## cyberbob

Do it. Writing essays is pretty much the only skill college gives us English majors so if there's an opportunity to make money doing it, take it. 

You're officially only writing it so they can use it as a model, so on its face it's legit. If they turn it in as their own then you shouldn't be responsible.

Don't do it, though, if you're still in school too because you might get in trouble for that.  :Smile:

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## qimissung

> If we think the grade assessment and value system a worthy one, you are correct. However, as I pointed out, not all students DO think that the teachers grade assessment is a legitimate method of rating, categorizing, and placing them in tracts. I have sympathy for these opinions. 
> 
> That being the case, qimissung Im not sure the sheer laziness of copying merits your objections. If Mozart copied a Physics Lab report, because he was too busy writing symphonies to bother with writing boring physics lab reports, but needed to pass the class or get punished, we can hardly think him lazy. Rather than laziness, its simply a matter of the student having different priorities from the teachers. Ill grant that in most cases the priority might be playing baseball, or watching movies, or making out with ones girlfriend rather than writing symphonies  but I sympathize with someone who would rather play baseball than write an English essay. There was a time  long before my participation at Lit Forum  where that would have been true of me.


Hey, I took classes where I skated by, but I never cheated or passed off someone else's work as my own, so yes, they are lazy.

I was lazy, too, or not talented or interested, but mine at least was an honest laziness (if there is such a thing).  :Biggrin:

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