# Reading > Philosophical Literature >  Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment

## sushil_yadav

*Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment* 

Dear Group Members, 

I want to share an article with you. This is about the link between Mind and Social / Environmental-Issues. The article examines why Writers, Poets and Artists experience more emotion than other people - and would be of interest to members of this forum. The fast-paced, consumerist lifestyle of Industrial Society is causing exponential rise in psychological problems besides destroying the environment. All issues are interlinked. Our Minds cannot be peaceful when attention-spans are down to nanoseconds, microseconds and milliseconds. Our Minds cannot be peaceful if we destroy Nature. 

Thank you, 
Sushil Yadav 

Please note : The article has been written in short sentences rather than paragraph-form because it is about subjective experience / emotion/ reduction of thought. 

Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment. 

Subject : In a fast society slow emotions become extinct. 
Subject : A thinking mind cannot feel. 
Subject : Scientific/ Industrial/ Financial thinking destroys the planet. 
Subject : Environment can never be saved as long as cities exist. 


Emotion is what we experience during gaps in our thinking. 

If there are no gaps there is no emotion. 

Today people are thinking all the time and are mistaking thought (words/ language) for emotion. 


When society switches-over from physical work (agriculture) to mental work (scientific/ industrial/ financial/ fast visuals/ fast words ) the speed of thinking keeps on accelerating and the gaps between thinking go on decreasing. 

There comes a time when there are almost no gaps. 

People become incapable of experiencing/ tolerating gaps. 

Emotion ends. 

Man becomes machine. 



A society that speeds up mentally experiences every mental slowing-down as Depression / Anxiety. 

A ( travelling )society that speeds up physically experiences every physical slowing-down as Depression / Anxiety. 

A society that entertains itself daily experiences every non-entertaining moment as Depression / Anxiety. 



FAST VISUALS /WORDS MAKE SLOW EMOTIONS EXTINCT. 

SCIENTIFIC /INDUSTRIAL /FINANCIAL THINKING DESTROYS EMOTIONAL CIRCUITS. 

A FAST (LARGE) SOCIETY CANNOT FEEL PAIN / REMORSE / EMPATHY. 

A FAST (LARGE) SOCIETY WILL ALWAYS BE CRUEL TO ANIMALS/ TREES/ AIR/ WATER/ LAND AND TO ITSELF. 



I am trying to get the following experiment conducted in a psychophysiology/ bio-chemistry laboratory. 

There is a link between visual / verbal speed ( in perception, memory, 
imagery ) and the bio-chemical state of the brain and the body. 

Emotion can intensify / sustain only when visual and verbal processing 
associated with the emotion slows down ( stops / freezes ). 

The degree of difficulty of an emotion depends upon the degree of 
freezing (of visuals and words ) required to intensify and sustain that 
particular emotion. 


Experiment: 

Subjects (preferably actors specialising in tragedy / tragic roles ) 
will be asked to watch a silent video film showing any of the 
following:- 

(1) Human suffering. 
(2) Animal suffering. 
(3) Suffering ( Destruction ) of Air / Water / Land / Trees. 

Subjects will be asked to intensify and sustain the subjective feeling of pain/ grief for the sufferer. 

The chemical changes associated with the emotion in the body(blood) would be measured by appropriate methods. 

The silent video film will be shown at different speeds : 
(1) 125% of actual speed. 
(2) Actual/real speed. 
(3) 75% of actual speed. 
(4) 50% of actual speed. 
(5) 25% of actual speed. 


Results : 

(1) Intensity of emotion increases with the decrease in visual speed. 
(2) Intensity of emotion is maximum when visual speed is minimum (25% 
of actual speed) 

(3) The amount of chemical change associated with the emotion in the 
body(blood) will be found to increase with the decrease in visual speed. 

(4) The chemical change is maximum when visual speed is minimum. 
(5) The amount of chemical change will increase with the decrease in 
breathing rate. Breathing becomes so slow and non-rhythmic that it stops 
for some time at the inhalation/ exhalation stages. 

The above co-relations will be valid for all subjects -even for those who cannot feel pain/ grief. Such subjects will experience emotion associated with boredom/ discomfort/ restlessness/ irritability/ uneasiness. The chemicals released will be different but the co-relation between visual speed and amount of chemical will be same( the breathing rates will be different/ fast). 
All subjects will experience some kind of emotion. 

[If scientists can discover 4000 different chemicals in cigarette-smoke then they can certainly detect the few chemicals released in blood when weexperience higher-level emotions like pain, empathy, compassion, remorse etc ] 


In the 2nd stage of experiment we shall replace the silent video film with a Narrator ( Audio only ) and repeat the procedure thereby establishing the link between intensity of emotion and verbal speed. The narrator will slow down verbal speed by-- speaking slowly, stretching words, repetition of words/ sentences & making use of 
pause/ silence between words. 

Please note: 
(1) A THINKING MIND CANNOT INTENSIFY / SUSTAIN ANY EMOTION. 
While this statement is generally true for all emotions, it is 
particularly true for all painful emotions. 

(2) In a society in which visual ( verbal ) speed and breathing- rates 
are fast , pain / remorse / empathy cannot be experienced. It is 
impossible. 


PROOF. 
Proof of the link between pain and slow visuals / words :- 

In the last century man has made thousands of movies / films on various 
themes / subjects. Whenever pain / tragedy is shown in any film the 
visuals ( scenes ) and words ( dialogues ) are always slowed down. In 
many films tragedy is shown in slow motion. At the most intense moment 
of pain the films almost become static / stationary. 

Tragedy-films provide direct proof / evidence of the link between pain 
and slowness. 

Pain can intensify / sustain only when visual ( and verbal ) speed slows 
down( stops/ freezes). 


CHANGE IN VISUAL SPEED OVER THE YEARS 

One thousand years ago visuals would change only when man physically 
moved himself to a new place or when other people ( animals / birds ) 
and objects ( clouds / water ) physically moved themselves before him. 

Today man sits in front of TV / Computer and watches the rapidly 
changing visuals / audio. 

He sits in a vehicle ( car / train / bus ) and as it moves he watches 
the rapidly changing visuals. 

He turns the pages of a book / newspaper / magazine and sees many 
visuals / text in a short span. 


CHANGE IN VERBAL SPEED OVER THE YEARS 

In ancient times verbal processing was live in natureie it happened when people actually spoke. 
Today there is non-stop verbal processing inside the mind through print and electronic media ( newspapers, books, magazines, radio, television, computer etc) as a result of which the verbal content & speed has increased thousands of times. 


The speed of visuals ( and words ) has increased so much during the last 
one hundred years that today the human brain has become incapable of 
focussing on slow visuals /words through perception, memory, imagery. 

If we cannot focus on slow visuals / words we cannot experience emotions 
associated with slow visuals /words. 



Before the advent of Industrial Revolution Man's thinking was primarily 
limited to : 

(a) visual processing ( slow visuals ) 
(b) verbal / language processing ( slow words ) 

Today there are many kinds of fast thinking : 

(1) visual processing ( fast visuals ) 
(2) verbal / language processing ( fast words ) 
(3) Scientific / Technical thinking ( fast ) 
(4) Industrial thinking ( fast ) 
(5) Business thinking ( fast ) 

(3), (4) & (5) ARE ASSOCIATED WITH NUMBERS / SYMBOLS / EQUATIONS / 
GRAPHS /CIRCUITS / DIAGRAMS / MONEY / ACCOUNTING etc 

As long as the mind is doing this kind of thinking it cannot feel any 
emotion - not an iota of emotion. 

In a fast society slow emotions become extinct. 
In a thinking ( scientific / industrial ) society emotion itself becomes extinct. 

EMOTION IS WHAT REMAINS IN THE MIND WHEN VISUAL /VERBAL PROCESSING SLOWS DOWN (STOPS/ FREEZES )

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## sushil_yadav

*article continued.*

There are certain categories of people who feel more emotion (subjective experience ) than others. 

If we attempt to understand why (and how ) they feel more emotion we can learn a lot about emotion. 

Writers, poets, actors, painters ( and other artists ) 

WRITERS 
Writers do verbal ( and associated visual) processing whole day- every day. 
They do slow verbal ( and associated visual) processing every day. 
(A novel that we read in 2 hours might have taken 2 years to write. This is also the reason why the reader can never feel the intensity & duration of emotion experienced by the writer ) 

POETS 
Poets do verbal ( and associated visual ) processing whole day- every day. 
There is more emotion in poetry than in prose. 
This happens because there are very few words ( and associated visuals ) in poetry than in any other kind of writing. 
There is a very high degree of freezing / slowing down of visuals & words in poetry. 

ACTORS 
Actors do verbal ( and associated visual ) processing whole day- every day. During shooting / rehearsal they repeat the dialogues ( words ) again and again ( the associated visuals / scenes also get repeated along with the dialogues ) 

PAINTERS 
Painters do visual ( and associated verbal ) processing whole day- every day. 
They do extremely slow visual processing - The visual on the canvas changes only when the painter adds to what already exists on the canvas. 


There are some important points to be noted : 

All these people do visual & verbal processing - whole day - every day. 
They do slow visual & verbal processing. 
They do not do scientific / industrial / business processing whole day - every day. 

Most of the city people doing mental work either do this kind of mental processing which is associated with NUMBERS / SYMBOLS/ Equations / Graphs / CIRCUITS / DIAGRAMS / MONEY / ACCOUNTING etc or they do fast visual ( verbal ) processing whole day - every day. 

This kind of thinking ( processing ) has come into existence only during the last 200 years and has destroyed our emotional ability ( circuits ). 



SELF-ASSESSMENT OF ( SUBJECTIVE ) INTENSITY OF EMOTION IS ALMOST ALWAYS WRONG. 

Suppose the maximum intensity(and duration) of a particular emotion that 
can be experienced by any human being is 100 units. 

Let us suppose the maximum intensity(and duration) of that particular emotion ever 
experienced by two people A & B in their entire life is : 
A - 100units 
B - 20 units 

Now suppose A & B are made subjects on a particular day and are asked 
to feel that particular emotion under experimental conditions ( or 
outside the laboratory ) and the intensity &duration they actually experience is 
: 

A - 90 units 
B - 18 units 

If A & B are then asked to indicate the intensity &duration of emotion on a scale 
of 0 -10 their response is likely to be ; 

A - 9 
B - 9 

Who is right and who is wrong ? 
A is right. 
B is wrong - B is wrong by a wide margin - B has experienced an 
intensity(and duration) of 18 units out of a maximum of 100 units and his correct / 
actual score should be 1.8 

Self- assessment ( self rating ) can be accurate only if people have 
the capacity to experience the highest intensity &duration ( units ) of the 
particular emotion under study. 



Because of physical work and slow visual/verbal processing in small(slow)agriculture based societies of the past, the mind used to experience a state of emotion all the time. If we read one thousand-year-old literature we will not come across the term "boredom" -the concept of boredom did not exist in slow societies. There were long gaps between different visuals and between words/ sentences -and people had the ability to experience/ tolerate the gaps -it was normal for them. 

Emotion can intensify / sustain only when visual / verbal processing slows down ( stops / freezes ). In an Industrial (thinking) society people experience very little emotion because of fast ( visual / verbal / scientific / industrial / business ) thinking 

Suppose the maximum intensity and duration of a particular emotion ( for most people ) in a fast society has reduced to 5 units ( from 100 units that people used to experience in earlier /slower societies ). 

If such people experience 4 units of emotion they will give themselves a 
rating /score of 8 on a scale of 0-10 whereas their actual score should 
be 0.4 

IN A FAST SOCIETY SLOW EMOTIONS BECOME EXTINCT. 



*IQ Vs EQ* 

IQ always has an element of change in it  IQ is about trying to make/ discover/ invent something new all the time. 
Change is an inherent feature of IQ. 
IQ is also about thinking more in less timeit involves speeding up of mind. Someone who does more mathematics in less time is considered more intelligent in mathematics. IQ is about change and speed. 

EQ is about sustainment of the same feeling/experience over a period of time. When we experience any higher-level emotion for 10 minutes we experience the same feeling( subjective experience) over and over again for 10 minutes. 
The( same) feeling can sustain only if there is Repetition. 
EQ involves RepetitionConstancySameness. 

IQ and EQ are contradictory. 
IQ and EQ are opposites. 
IQ and EQ are inversely proportional. 



(1) A thinking species destroys the planet. 
(2) Animals lived on earth for billions of years (in very large numbers) 
without destroying nature. 
(3) They did not destroy nature because their thinking / activity was 
limited to searching for food for one time only. 
(4) Man has existed on earth in large numbers for only a few thousand 
years / a few hundred years. 
(5) Within this short period Man has destroyed the environment. 
(6) This destruction took place because of Man's thinking. 
(7) When man thinks he makes things. 
(8) When he makes things he kills animals / trees / air / water / land. 
( Nothing can be made without killing these five elements of nature ). 

(9) A thinking species destroys the planet. 



*Intelligence Is A Curse.* 

This planet is on the verge of total destruction. 

The cause of destruction is  overactivity. 
[Out of millions of species in this world the human-species is the only one that has indulged in overactivity] 

The cause of overactivity is  Intelligence. 
[The environment would never have got destroyed if Man had been only as intelligent as animals] 

Intelligence is the biggest cause/ source of destruction in this world. 

[In fact Intelligence is the only cause of destruction in this world other than natural causes] 



MENTAL WORK IS INJURIOUS TO THE MIND AND PLANET. 

There is no higher purpose behind work. 

People do not work because they want to work. 
People work because they cannot stop working. 

People cannot stop physical activity and mental activity (simultaneously) for even 2 minutes. 

For most people it is a choice between physical and mental work. 
The switch-over from physical work to mental work is disastrous for the planet. 

Man can do the same physical work every day. 
Man cannot do the same mental work every day. 

When man used to do physical work ( farming and related activities ) he could do the same repetitive work day after day- generation after generation. 

After the Industrial Revolution when man switched-over to mental work he 
began a never ending process of making new machines / things / products-- 
a process which can only end with the complete destruction of environment ( planet ). 


The nature of mental work is such that man has to do new mental work every day- in fact he has to do new mental work every moment- Man cannot repeat in the next moment the mental work that he has already done in the previous moment. 


A mathematician cannot solve the same problem of mathematics every day- once he has solved it he will be forced to take up a new( unsolved) problem. Even when he is solving one particular problem he has to move from one step to another - there is a continuous change involved -- there is no constancy at any stage. 

An engineer cannot design the same machine again and again once he has made a machine he will try to make changes/ design a new one. 

A writer cannot write the same article every day- he will be forced to write something new every day/ every moment (This is also the reason behind endless discussions/ debates/ arguments).

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## sushil_yadav

*article continued.*


*Discussions, Debates and Arguments.* 

Let us examine how much discussion we are collectively having in Industrial Society every day. 

Millions of pages in print  newspapers / books / magazines. 
Millions of web-pages on internet every day. 

Now add to this all the conversation (discussion) we are having through radio / television / telephone and several other media every day. 

And add to this all the discussion we are having through face-to-face interaction. 

The volume of discussion per individual in one week is greater than the total discussion someone living in pre-industrial society would have in his entire life. 

There is too much discussion in modern society. 
Discussion is not solving our problems  discussion itself has become a problem  a gigantic problem. 


A society that does mental work will discuss itself to destruction [extinction] 

A society that does mental work will argue itself to destruction [extinction] 

A society that does mental work will debate itself to destruction [extinction] 


A society that does mental work can never stop discussions / debates / arguments  it is impossible. It will discuss / debate / argue till the last moment of its existence. 


Discussions / Debates / Arguments  these are creations of a society that has switched-over from physical work to mental work. 

Discussions / Debates / Arguments  these are diseases of a society that has switched-over from physical work to mental work. 


Discussions / debates / arguments can end only in agriculture-based societies that do physical work. 

We cannot do physical-work and mental-work simultaneously. 

There is an inverse relationship between physical-work and mental-work. 
If one is high [more] the other has got to be low [less] 

If we want to do physical work we have to reduce mental activity by the same proportion. 
If we want to do mental work we have to reduce physical activity by the same proportion. 


There is very little discussion / debate / argument in societies that do physical work - ie, agriculture-based societies - And this is the reason why they are millions of times saner than industrial societies. 




Change is an inherent feature of mental work. 

Since change is an inherent feature of mental work - a society that does mental work can never be at peace with itself  it is impossible. 

A society that does mental work will always be restless. 

Only those societies that do physical work [agriculture and related activities] can find contentment and peace. 



AS LONG AS CITIES EXIST WE CAN NEITHER SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT NOR THE MIND. 

To save the [ remaining ] environment from destruction man will have to 
return back to physical work [ smaller communities ]. 

To save the mind from mental diseases man will have to return back to physical work [ smaller communities ]. 



*Criminality and Abnormality.* 

Industrial Society has collectively killed billions of Animals and Trees [ Remember -plant and animal species developed over a period of millions ofyears] 

It has also killed most of Water and Air [ Please note - polluting Water and Air is equivalent to killing Water and Air ] 

The soil was not fertile when the earth was created. It became fertile - very slowly - over a period of millions of years. And look what man has done - He has covered millions and millions of hectares of land with cement and concrete. All the land that has been covered with cement and concrete has been killed. 


Man has stockpiled thousands of tonnes of highly radioactive nuclear material and nuclear waste which is going to remain highly radioactive and carcinogenic for the next thousands of years - and which has already leaked into the environment hundreds of times. 


What could be more criminal than this. 
What could be more abnormal than this. 


Lawyers and Judges are trying to catch a few criminals. 
They dont realize the entire Industrial Society is criminal. 

Psychologists and Psychiatrists are trying to classify a few people as abnormal. 
They dont realize the entire Industrial Society is abnormal. 




Industrial Society is collectively making millions of tonnes of weapons and explosives [of all kinds] every year  and then it wonders why there is so much violence in this world. 

Big Mystery. 

If you make millions of tonnes of weapons and explosives on earth they are going to be used on earth  they are not going to be used on Mars. 




Make things 
Buy things 
Sell things 

This is not the purpose of life. 

Destroy Shopping Culture. 

No one deserves more. 
Everyone deserves less. 



There was a time when Man knew nothing about the number of species and millions of species existed. 
Today Man knows the names of millions of species and nothing is left of the species. 



It took millions of years for millions of species to slowly come into existence on earth - and man has decimated all other species. 

After destroying millions of highly-developed species on earth Man is today searching for a few molecules of life in outer-space. 

If a few microbes, a few molecules of methane / water are found on Mars - it becomes the newspaper headline. 

They call it progress. 



The following is about to come true. 

Nature can exist 

(1) before man. 
(2) after man. 
(3) not with man. 


Environment can be saved only if we stop production of most [ more than 
99% ] of the consumer goods we are making today. 

ENVIRONMENT CANNOT BE SAVED BY RECYCLING 

THE ATTEMPT OF AN INDUSTRIAL SOCIETY TO SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT BY RECYCLING IS LIKE SHOOTING SOMEONE 
10,000 TIMES AND THEN TRYING TO SAVE HIM BY TAKING OUT ONE BULLET. 


Time is running out for this planet. 


Yours Sincerely, 
Sushil Yadav 


Please note : 
Fast emotions =emotions associated with fast visuals/fast words/fast breathing/fast heart-rate. 
Slow emotions=emotions associated with slow visuals/slow words/slow breathing/slow heart-rate. 
Rate of thinking=number of visuals/words processed per minute. 
Gaps between thinking =gaps between visuals/ words/ sentences.

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## sushil_yadav

*article continued.*

Regarding Industrialization there is an important point to be noted. Modern Industrial Society has existed for 100 years - 200 years - 300 years. When we compare this period with the total duration for which human society has existed on earth this period is so short - so small that it almost does'nt exist. It is almost zero. 

Material things don't bring peace and happiness. Today billions of people have got things which even Kings did not have in the past. Car, computer, television, fridge, telephone - no King ever had these things. But people are still restless and unhappy. The fast-paced, consumerist lifestyle of Industrial Society is causing exponential rise in psychological problems - besides destroying the environment. Our Minds cannot be spiritual or peaceful when attention-spans are down to nanoseconds, microseconds and milliseconds. Our Minds cannot be spiritual or peaceful if we destroy Nature. 

Consumerist-Lifestyle is just not sustainable. If we do not immediately return to living a very simple and frugal life then very soon there will be no human life on earth. 


*Think Positive.* 

Psychologists say -- Think Positive. 
Politicians say – Think Positive. 
Economists say – Think Positive. 
Scientists say – Think Positive. 
Everyone says – Think Positive. 

Arctic ice is melting – Glaciers are melting – Rivers are drying up. 
Think Positive. 

Fish population in Oceans is down to 1/3 of what it was 100 years ago. 
Think Positive. 

Pollution levels are going sky-high and valley-deep. 
Think Positive. 

There used to be millions of members in most species of Animals and Birds. Now they are down to thousands and hundreds. 
Think Positive. 

Weather is getting more and more irregular and unpredictable. 
Think Positive. 


Thinking positive is the height of insanity. 
Thinking positive is the height of abnormality. 


This is a world that has become completely incapable of feeling Pain, Compassion, Remorse and Guilt. 
The planet is getting destroyed moment by moment – and people are thinking positive. 


Very soon there will be 1 Animal and 1 Tree left in this world – and people will still be thinking positive. 

They will be holding Seminars, Conferences and Global-Summits to save the Environment. 




There is an important point which the human-species needs to understand. People think they can save the Environment by doing something. 

We can never save the environment by doing something. 

It is overactivity that has destroyed environment in the first place. 

Human-species is the only one out of millions of species that has indulged in overactivity on this planet [ And for this very reason the human speciesis going to exist on earth for the least amount of time] 

And it is not Mild Overactivity – It is Excessive Overactivity – Exponential Overactivity. 

We cannot save the environment by doing something. 

We can only save it by doing less of what we have been doing - much less of what we have been doing. 

If we want to save environment we will have to reduce human activity [overactivity] by 99%. 



*The Illogical Logic of Man.* 

A few birds have got infected with bird-flu and Man has started killing millions of birds. 
They say birds are a threat to humans. 

Sometime ago there was Mad Cow disease and Man started killing hundreds of thousands of cows. 
They said cows are a threat to humans. 


Ever since Man came into existence - millions of humans with infectious diseases have transferred such diseases to millions of other people - and will continue to infect millions more in future. 
Such people are a threat to rest of the people. 
Man should follow the same logic here and kill all infected people. 

It is Man who has killed millions of people in Wars and other forms of Violence – and can kill millions more any time in future. 
Man should follow the same logic here and kill all people. 


It is the human species which is the greatest threat to humans and all other life on this planet - In fact the human species is the only species which is a threat to all life on Earth. 

Man has decimated all Animal and Plant species – polluted the Sky and Oceans - and poisioned every square inch of earth. 

In a mere 200 - 300 years Industrial Society has destroyed all that Nature laboriously created over a period of millions of years. 


Humans pose the greatest threat to other humans. 
Humans pose the greatest threat to all other life on earth. 


The so-called Rational and Civilized Man should follow the same logic here - and destroy the entire human race. 


Please note : 

If you indulge in Factory Farming – If you torture the birds – confine millions of them in prison like conditions – depriving them of Sunlight and the freedom to walk and fly – you are creating an environment for the spread of virus and disease. 



*Lifestyle of Mass Destruction.* 

Destruction is an inherent feature of Development. 

Progress = Destruction of Nature. 
Development = Destruction of Nature. 


We can have Sustainable Lifestyle. 
We cannot have Sustainable Development. 

Development can never be sustainable. 
Sustainability and Development cannot exist together. 


Development and Sustainability are opposites. 
Development and Sustainability are contradictory. 

Sustainable Living is associated with consuming less – being satisfied with a simple and frugal life. 
Development is associated with never ending desires – always wanting more. 


Sustainable lifestyle requires Constancy. 
Sustainable lifestyle requires Sameness. 
Sustainable lifestyle requires Repetition. 


Development is associated with Change. 
Development is associated with New. 
Development is associated with Transience. 


Industrial Societies can never be sustainable – When you make thousands of consumer goods you kill Nature - you kill Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land. 

A Society that does mental work [city based] can never be sustainable - it will keep on making consumer goods - destroying the environment moment by moment. 

Only agriculture-based societies that do physical work can be sustainable. 


The term Sustainable Development is like the terms 

Stationary Walk. 
Silent Talk. 
Wakeful Sleep. 
Dark Sun 
Gentle Torture. 
Dry Rain. 
Peaceful War. 



There was a time when Man used to say – 

I work in order to feed my family. 
I work in order to put Food on the Table. 


Today man is putting a lot more than Food on the Table. 

Cars, Computers, ipods, Aeroplanes, 200 TV Channels, Luxury Yatchs, Caribbean Vacations, Palatial Homes, Video Phones, Designer Clothes, Designer Drugs, Cosmetic Surgery …………… The list is endless. 


Man is putting thousands of consumer goods and services on the Table. 
There is too much weight on the Table. 
*And the Table has begun to creak.* 


The more you put on your table the more you take out from the mouths of Animals and Birds. 

The more you put on your table the more you kill Animals and Trees. 

The more you put on your table the more you kill Water, Air and Land. 

The more you put on your table the more you kill Mountains and Valleys. 

The more you put on your table the more you kill the Sky and Oceans - the Rivers and Lakes. 



There are so many things on the Table that one can barely see the Food. 

We need just a few things to live. 
And we are making thousands of things. 

Billions of people are engaged in making, buying and selling of thousands of consumer goods. 


Destroy Shopping Culture. 

Go back to Simple Living. 
Go back to putting just Food on the Table. 


sushil_yadav

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## Sami

I agree with you that there is a lot that could be criticized about our materialist shopping culture. However, is there perhaps another dimension to this argument? 

In one sense, Western industrial (or post-industrial) societies enjoy some hefty advantages over pre-industrial societies. For instance, life expectancy has increased due to better nutrition, modern medicine and so on. Personally, I am very grateful for these aspects of current western society. Another thing is that technology has freed up time since we are no longer obliged to spend the majority of our lives in the quest for subsistence. Do we really want to go back to just putting food on the table? Does a simple agricultural life really allow for a richer emotional experience? Ive always thought of agriculture as very hard work, but then I am a life long city dweller so I have no direct experience here. 

Appreciating the advantages of technology does not necessarily rule out being critical of the present state of affairs. E.g. Karl Marx was critical of capitalist inequality, but at the same time, impressed by the abundance generated by industrial innovation. I would tend to say that the issue is not one of rejecting industrialization etc. but of working to see how its advantages can be extended to the majority of people in the world, rather than as at present, being confined to a privileged few. How this might be achieved in an environmentally responsible manner is, as you indicate, a troubling and highly significant question.

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## Nymo

We are nothing more than like a bunch of insects put into a jar by a larger being who watches. When we were few we were as mindful as an ant with a purpose relying on his instincts, but now are swarms in turmoil feeding off each other and the crumbs that are left. Deluded that we are that larger being and have wisdom and yet we can not see beyond that which holds us. In our mindless pursuits we are merely clawing at the glass and the words that come from our breath is fogging our vision to see clearly.

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## byquist

Sounds like a tad of eco-terrorism. But a lot of them just recently got arrested out in Oregon or Washington and will spend some time in the slammer. Definitely avoid that eventuality.

Can't really agree with categorizing that writers, artists and poets automatically have more feelings or emotions than, say a mathematician or businessperson. That would be a tough axiom to prove.

There's a ton of eco-literature that you will really enjoy if you haven't yet encountered it. Edward Abbey's "The Monkey Wrench Gang" for starters. That's a wild ride. Also, "A River Runs Through It."

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## smoothherb

I usually like to hear peoples opinions and I usually don't go as far as to say I hate something but reading this artical blew my mind how could someone write this.I don't have a comment I won't even state why I don't like it all I have to say is that the whole thing is ridiculous.

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## sHaRp12

You must be kidding. I cannot put into words such mind numbing stupidity.

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## Virgil

It sounds like dribble to me. I didn't read it all. Got bored real fast. Seemed like it was politically motivated.

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## mono

I, personally, found the article fascinating, despite my disagreement with a few parts of the article, which I thought, required immensely more empirical evidence to entirely prove all of the theories - theories, I call them, or hypotheses, because many concepts communicated appear far more reliant on non-linear logic more contingent on personal belief than, for example, a documented scientific journal or document.
If possible, sushil_yadav, could you supply the works cited for finding this article? Without breaking the law for posting this article, possibly forgetting to cite your sources, it would also satisfy my curiosity regarding the reliability of the source - whether it seems more of faith-based scientological outlook (though I intend no offense to scientologists) or something more fact-based by scientific research, composed by doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, ecologists, and other relating researchers to the article's content.
Despite how much right-sided hemisphere brain-cognition and left-sided hemisphere brain cognition differ, however, I find that both can live in unison; I offer myself as a decent, though not the best example. For this purpose, I will expose my vulnerability to a public forum that I do suffer from mental illness (two, in fact); besides my incessant struggle, I find myself strongly attached to both science (particularly human biology, and remain a mere 2 weeks from graduating from nursing school), and attached to literature (also as a writer, writing notebooks full of poetry, and a third play in progress). I also admit the fact of my male gender; I find this relevant because females, on average, can have an average 48% larger corpus callosum (the connecting tissue between both hemispheres of the human brain, thereby increasing neural transmissions between the two).
Despite any such research that appears uncited and absent of any scientific relevance without a reliable source (perhaps in a bibliography), I find this article difficult to consider. I can admit that I agree with some parts of it, but disagree with others; of course, not calling myself an empiricist in all my thought, when speaking in more scientific matters, I find empiricism essential in providing any proof of the relevance of this article.

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## caesar

:Rage:  OUTRAGEOUSLY RIDICULOUS.to say the least. What a monstrous waste of time and space.

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## Logos

Lets try not to get into current politics  :Smile:

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## antiresonance

This is old news I realize, but the level of absolutism in many of the negative responses is disturbing. Additionally, the black or white viewpoint that the article imparts is not exactly most objective either. The division between art and science is a facade. All valid disciplines of science seek the truth about the nature of things, be it the environment (ecology), mathematics, or human nature. Pound even stated someting akin to literature being the science of the soul. 

However, the article points out many validities in regards to how we are literally "buying" our own doom through purchasing usless sh*t. I think we as humans are trying to fill a spiritual hole created (only in part) by technology outpacing the evolution of the human spirit. Overall, I really enjoyed the article.

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## Shadowsarin

The article was difficult to read, but what I got from it was something extremely critical of the current state of the Westen world. Though I admit I read little. 

However, I also read something about saving the enviroment, which is a subject I refuse to talk about, because frankly I would lose control and swear to the point of bannage. 

So yeah, not altogether impressed with it.

Plus it wasn't an article, it was a bloody book!

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## WriterAtTheSea

While this article had some interesting points, I found it rather difficult to swallow, especially without any reliable sources cited. I would imagine those exist, but they were not posted. 

I also am uncertain what this really had to do with keeping within the Literary Forum, as this seemed rather science based.
 :Smile:

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## iloveamano

This is dribble. Worse, it's infuriating dribble.

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## Asa Adams

[QUOTE=mono;220346]I, personally, found the article fascinating, despite my disagreement with a few parts of the article, which I thought, required immensely more empirical evidence to entirely prove all of the theories - theories, I call them, or hypotheses, because many concepts communicated appear far more reliant on non-linear logic more contingent on personal belief than, for example, a documented scientific journal or document.[QUOTE]

I agree. I think that this piece has a good, but entirely strange theory. As it is an opinion, I have accepted it as just that. I do believe that the majority of it is irrelevant, and mostly a bit of a bore, also to which I disagree with most of what was written, though it is very interesting. It is a good thesis to work with but very far fetched. I don't think it has any scientific merit, especially if you are to use its findings to end the use of "fast thought" and science for that matter.

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## sushil_yadav

> I, personally, found the article fascinating, despite my disagreement with a few parts of the article, which I thought, required immensely more empirical evidence to entirely prove all of the theories - theories, I call them, or hypotheses, because many concepts communicated appear far more reliant on non-linear logic more contingent on personal belief than, for example, a documented scientific journal or document.
> If possible, sushil_yadav, could you supply the works cited for finding this article? Without breaking the law for posting this article, possibly forgetting to cite your sources, it would also satisfy my curiosity regarding the reliability of the source - whether it seems more of faith-based scientological outlook (though I intend no offense to scientologists) or something more fact-based by scientific research, composed by doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, ecologists, and other relating researchers to the article's content.
> Despite how much right-sided hemisphere brain-cognition and left-sided hemisphere brain cognition differ, however, I find that both can live in unison; I offer myself as a decent, though not the best example. For this purpose, I will expose my vulnerability to a public forum that I do suffer from mental illness (two, in fact); besides my incessant struggle, I find myself strongly attached to both science (particularly human biology, and remain a mere 2 weeks from graduating from nursing school), and attached to literature (also as a writer, writing notebooks full of poetry, and a third play in progress). I also admit the fact of my male gender; I find this relevant because females, on average, can have an average 48&#37; larger corpus callosum (the connecting tissue between both hemispheres of the human brain, thereby increasing neural transmissions between the two).
> Despite any such research that appears uncited and absent of any scientific relevance without a reliable source (perhaps in a bibliography), I find this article difficult to consider. I can admit that I agree with some parts of it, but disagree with others; of course, not calling myself an empiricist in all my thought, when speaking in more scientific matters, I find empiricism essential in providing any proof of the relevance of this article.



mono,

Thanks for reading the article and expressing your views on the topic.

The experiments I have proposed are primarily meant for those people who understand only the language of science. We don't need experiments to understand that our present lifestyle is destroying our Minds and Environment - the evidence is everywhere - left, right and center. The craze and fetish for science and scientific proof has mainly existed for the last 50 - 100 years. People have lived on this planet for thousands of years without needing scientific proof to understand something. It is Science and Technology that created the consumerist Industrial Society which has led to the destruction of Mind and Nature/ Environment. Who needs more science or more scientific proof. *Science is not the solution - Science is the problem.*

I have made some additions to the article *"Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment".* To read the modified article please follow any of these links :

freeinfosociety.com/wforum/viewtopic.php?t=3649 
ephilosopher.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?127001.post
corrupt.org/transcendence/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1167537083
foreignpolicy.com/resources/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2485

sushil_yadav

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## kilted exile

> *Science is not the solution - Science is the problem.*


Aside form the wonderful irony of decrying science via a medium that would not be possible without. I wonder exactly what you would have us do: Are we to become luddites and destroy every machine? Should we become like the Amish? Stop looking for advances in medicine? Stop looking for ways to make life easier?

Also without science how would we have ever known what effect we were having on the environment?

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## sushil_yadav

> Aside form the wonderful irony of decrying science via a medium that would not be possible without. I wonder exactly what you would have us do: Are we to become luddites and destroy every machine? Should we become like the Amish? Stop looking for advances in medicine? Stop looking for ways to make life easier?
> 
> Also without science how would we have ever known what effect we were having on the environment?



Want to know what irony is?

The human race has been destroying/ killing animals, trees, air, water, land and people from the very beginning of civilization. *Science and Technology has increased this destructive capacity millions of times.* 

Every man is a serial-killer. The per-capita destruction of Environment - per-capita destruction of Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land is thousands of times greater than what it was 1000 years ago - 500 years ago - 200 years ago.

The *Military-Industrial Complex* is all set to destroy whatever life and environment that remains on earth. 


There is a reason why the two World Wars happened in the recent past and not 1000 years ago?

It was not possible to have world wars 1000 years ago. World Wars became possible only when Science and Technology developed aeroplanes, ships and other carriers which could transport millions of troops and millions of tonnes of weapons[once again a creation of science and technology] from one corner of the globe to another.

And today one does'nt even need all these to fight a war. One just needs to move finger-tips to launch missiles that can destroy the planet several times over.

Right at this moment there are several countries fighting wars with one another. There is internal war going on in almost half of the the countries of the world. All these wars are being fuelled and sustained by billions of tonnes of weapons produced by the Military-Industrial Complex every year. 

And it is going to get worse and worse every day.

If you kill one person they call it murder.
If you kill a few hundred they call it terrorism.
If you kill a few million they call it war.

Science and Technology has made this world [millions of times] more violent and unsafe than before.

Science and Technology has produced billions of tonnes of weapons and explosives - chemical, biological and nuclear weapons - millions of tonnes of Radioactive material [ which will soon be used to make dirty bombs - which are going to contaminate the environment for hundreds and thousands of years]. *Science and Technology is the real terrorist.* 

sushil_yadav

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## kilted exile

Science & Technology has also saved many millions of lives. However, if you want to do away with every single technological advance and go back to living like it was in the dark ages by all means go ahead. You'll find however that there are still wars are many will still die (many of which in a far more gruesome way than now)

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## cuppajoe_9

Actually, the early hunter gatherer societies regularly caused other species to go extinct without the benefit of any technology more impressive than sharp rocks and sticks (unless you'd like to go without those as well?). Not to mention the evidence of violent clan-rivalries that cut the human population of the planet in half, possibly more than once.

The First and Second World Wars were emphatically not the first and second times there was a world war. To claim so is to forget the campaigns of Alexander the Great, the Roman conquests, Atilla the Hun, centuries' worth of carnage following the Protestant Reformation, the squabbling of the imperial powers – notably Britain and France – that divided the globe into European protecorates, Napoleon Bonaparte's rule and probably a few other events that I'm forgetting about. In fact: it's been three of four years since two sovereign governments have been openly at war with each other. I believe that is a record.

The world isn't becoming more violent, it's just that the violence that there is gets more coverage.

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## Derringer

Art is not a science. Emotion can not be empirically measured. I'm sorry to break it to you, but living a long time ago likely was much more difficult than living now.

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## billyjack

> *article continued.*
> 
> 1)Material things don't bring peace and happiness. Today billions of people have got things which even Kings did not have in the past. Car, computer, television, fridge, telephone - no King ever had these things. But people are still restless and unhappy. 
> 
> 2)Consumerist-Lifestyle is just not sustainable. If we do not immediately return to living a very simple and frugal life then very soon there will be no human life on earth. 
> 
> 3)A thinking species destroys the planet



the article brought up some solid truths and some flabby pseudo truths.

1)this seems right on to me. focusing our attention and sense of self on something as arbitrary as material possessions leads us through a merry-go-round of uquenchable desires. reason being, our desire is not thing desired, but the idea of the thing desired. then, once its gotten, our expectations (ideas) are most likely not met. this leaves us unsatisfied, wanting more, and thereby continuing the cycle of unquentiable desire. breaking the cycle would mean finding a way to be content with what one has. but our way of thinking makes this break seemingly unforseeable any time soon.

2) this claim is recockulous. it couldnt happen. asking us to "digress" to lifetstyles of 1,000 of years ago just wont ever work in a world. appealing to this "digression" as the answer to our contemporary problems is like demanding the industrial revolution to have taken place in five years. revolutions such as the industrial one take hundreds of years. re-discovering equilibrium with nature will take just as long, maybe longer since finding "the way" of nature involves a radically new view of man and his relation to the world.

3) this claim is cruddy because you cant put the blame on thought (language and symbolizing) alone. rather, our line of thought has gone astray-mistaking abstractions as more concrete than physcial reality itself. Feelings _and_ thought were and are effective tools for living.

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## Morrisonhotel

I would go through that article and destroy some of the worst parts of the arguments presented. I can't be bothered, though.

I'll leave you with a reccommendation for reading: Dick Taverne's The March of Unreason - it destroys and ridicules huge sections of that article.

Guess what, bud? You say you're from India - India has benefitted more than most countries from science and technology (G.M. crops, etc. - not to mention the massive population which is sustained by technological advancement).

Also, just one point: sustainability and development are not contradictory. Who ever heard of such clap-trap?

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## Argyroneta

Emotions are not gaps in between moments of thought; they are the very nature of thought. The mechanics of society may be faster than it was in the past but to say that that comes at the expense of emotion is ridiculous. Emotion arises from stimuli and will always be irrespective of the speed at which the brain registers them!

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## sushil_yadav

Man can repair and restore things that have been made by man himself. Car, Computer, Aeroplane, Rocket - if anything goes wrong with these things man can repair and restore.

Man cannot repair and restore Nature/ Environment - because man did not make Nature/ Environment. Once a Forest is destroyed - it is gone for millions of years. One cannot create a Forest in 5 or 50 years - it takes millions of years to make a forest - containing millions of species of animals, insects, birds, plants and trees. Man can create a plantation in 5 or 50 years - not a forest.

The only way to save Environment is by not destroying it - leave it alone - leave it undisturbed. If you destroy Environment you cannot repair and restore it.

sushil_yadav

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## sushil_yadav

> Emotions are not gaps in between moments of thought; they are the very nature of thought. The mechanics of society may be faster than it was in the past but to say that that comes at the expense of emotion is ridiculous. Emotion arises from stimuli and will always be irrespective of the speed at which the brain registers them!



Thoughts and Emotions are interlinked - but different things - totally/ completly different. 

Words can be spoken - words can be read - words can be heard. 

Emotion is a subjective-experience. Other examples of subjective experience are taste, smell, touch, headache, stomach pain. 

One can understand the difference this way : 

When we eat an apple we can feel the taste of apple. Apple can give us the taste of apple - but apple is not taste. 

If we pour apple juice into a glass - the glass will not feel the taste - it does not have the ability to feel taste. 

If a person eats an apple he will feel the taste - because he has the ability to generate taste from apple. 

Words/ Visuals can evoke, intensify and sustain emotions - but words/ visuals are not emotions. 



In every field there is easy work/activity and difficult work/activity. 

In mathematics there is easy mathematics and difficult mathematics. Everyone can add 2+4 within microseconds. A PhD level problem of mathematics would take hours [or more] to solve - and that too only by someone who has spent 20 - 25 years learning mathematics upto PhD level. 

Same way in the field of emotions there are easy emotions and difficult emotions. Easy emotions are evoked within nanoseconds, microseconds and milliseconds - anger, lust, fear, pleasure, entertainment and excitement are some examples. These emotions are associated with fast breathing and heart-rate. These emotions don"t require gaps between thinking to evoke, intensify and sustain. These are the emotions that can be found everywhere in today's fast society. 

Then there are difficult emotions - which require ability and years of effort to develop - emotions associated with pain, compassion and peaceful states of mind are some examples. These emotions are associated with slow breathing and heart-rate. These emotions require freezing of thought - freezing of visuals and words - huge amounts of gaps between thinking - to evoke, intensify and sustain. 

Fast emotions =emotions associated with fast visuals/fast words/fast breathing/fast heart-rate. 
Slow emotions=emotions associated with slow visuals/slow words/slow breathing/slow heart-rate. 
Rate of thinking=number of visuals/words processed per minute. 
Gaps between thinking =gaps between visuals/ words/ sentences. 

sushil_yadav

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## Mortis Anarchy

> This is dribble. Worse, it's infuriating dribble.


Here here! :Biggrin:

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## sushil_yadav

> Sounds like a tad of eco-terrorism. But a lot of them just recently got arrested out in Oregon or Washington and will spend some time in the slammer. Definitely avoid that eventuality.
> 
> Can't really agree with categorizing that writers, artists and poets automatically have more feelings or emotions than, say a mathematician or businessperson. That would be a tough axiom to prove.
> 
> There's a ton of eco-literature that you will really enjoy if you haven't yet encountered it. Edward Abbey's "The Monkey Wrench Gang" for starters. That's a wild ride. Also, "A River Runs Through It."


byquist,

Thanks for reading the article and for giving information about Environmental Literature. You have mentioned EcoTerrorism. I want to say something in this context.

Governments and Law Enforcement Agencies have labelled a few Environmentalists as EcoTerrorists.

What are the charges against Environmental Activists? - Destruction of property? - endangering human life?

The Military Industrial Complex is doing much more damage to property - it is going around carpet bombing entire countries - flattening entire countries. The Military Industrial Complex is endangering much more human life - it is actually killing - killing millions in War/ Violence - directly or indirectly.

Who is the real Terrorist? - *Environmentalists* or *Industrial Society?*

The human race has been destroying/ killing animals, trees, air, water, land and people from the very beginning of civilization. *Science and Technology has increased this destructive capacity millions of times.*

Every man is a serial-killer. The per-capita destruction of Environment - per capita destruction of Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land in Industrial Society is thousands of times greater than what it was 1000 years ago - 500 years ago - 200 years ago.

Before Industrialization humans killed Environment primarily for *Food.* After industrialization humans are killing environment for* Food* and *[unnecessary]Consumer Goods.*

Industrial Society is destroying necessary things*[Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land]* for making unnecessary things*[Consumer Goods].*

The *Military Industrial Complex* has killed millions of people in War/ Violence. It has decimated all plant and animal species. It has destroyed all ecosystems. It has polluted and poisioned the Sky, Land and Oceans. It has raped and plundered "Mother Earth" in the name of Progress and Development.

The crimes of *"Military Industrial Complex"*are millions of times greater than the crimes of *Environmentalists.*

Comparing the crimes of *Environmentalists* with the crimes of *"Military Industrial Complex"* is like comparing the *Lamp* with the *Sun.*

*The entire Industrial Society is a Terrorist.
Science and Technology is the Terrorist.
Military Industrial Complex is the Terrorist.
Culture of Consumerism - culture of making, buying and selling is the Terrorist.*

sushil_yadav

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## Turk

> Who is the real Terrorist? - *Environmentalists* or *Industrial Society?*
> 
> The human race has been destroying/ killing animals, trees, air, water, land and people from the very beginning of civilization. *Science and Technology has increased this destructive capacity millions of times.*
> 
> Every man is a serial-killer. The per-capita destruction of Environment - per capita destruction of Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land in Industrial Society is thousands of times greater than what it was 1000 years ago - 500 years ago - 200 years ago.


I will tell my thoughts on subject later, but here i would like to point that you exaggerating and mixing things. 

1. Industrializtion or science are not the reasons of dectructionf of nature, in fact technology and science are in our hands, if we'd use them for good, then it wouldn't be necessary to destory environment.
2. I am not a serial killer, just a humble and modest Turk, who eats a little, who consumes a little and who doesn't corrupt nature. So not "every" man, but some man. I don't like this generaliztion.
3. True problem is perverted capitalist ideology, not industrial society, if we use industry for goodness of our world and for goodness of mankind, then it's not problem. But perverted capitalist mind is only concentrated on making more profit. That's the problem.

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## Midas

I hear so often today the many variations on this theme. So much negativity is spewed forth from that ubiquitous, around the clock, screen that annually grows in size as it narrows in depth, which is no doubt responsible for much of the preoccupation, and slant, of the mind on this area.

If anyone cares to study social history through the ages upon which we have record, it doesn't take any deliberating to conclude that for all its perceived faults, taking everything into consideration, we live far better today than in any previous era.

However, we must take into consideration, that in all other periods, to the people at that time where they were not privileged to see forward (neither are we today) but to only see backward (like we are) they would have probably felt they lived better than their ancestors.

No doubt, this will continue, and the people of our future will feel life is better for them, than for us today.

Ask yourself one question: Is there any period of history in which YOU would have preferred to live your life than the present? (I don't mean just drop in for a visit).

For those who worry about the weather, and conservation, let me remind you that once the whole of the UK was covered in ice and joined to the rest of Europe.

Later, when vegetation arrived most of the land was covered by huge forests. Today, it is warmer. Most of the forests have disappeared. Much of the timber went to build the ships of the British navy that ruled the waves (now even most of that navy has gone.) And 'foggy London is only to be seen on old black and white movies.

But life goes on, and Britain survives without its vast forests.

Life is about adapting, and survival. It has been doing it ever since life began. It will continue well into a future that is way beyond our conception (though we like to feel we can foresee it.)

It was John Lennon who said that 'life is what happens while we are busy making plans' . I could add 'and while worrying about tomorrow' which I guess is what he meant'.

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## sushil_yadav

> I hear so often today the many variations on this theme. So much negativity is spewed forth from that ubiquitous, around the clock, screen that annually grows in size as it narrows in depth, which is no doubt responsible for much of the preoccupation, and slant, of the mind on this area.
> 
> If anyone cares to study social history through the ages upon which we have record, it doesn't take any deliberating to conclude that for all its perceived faults, taking everything into consideration, we live far better today than in any previous era.
> 
> However, we must take into consideration, that in all other periods, to the people at that time where they were not privileged to see forward (neither are we today) but to only see backward (like we are) they would have probably felt they lived better than their ancestors.
> 
> No doubt, this will continue, and the people of our future will feel life is better for them, than for us today.
> 
> Ask yourself one question: Is there any period of history in which YOU would have preferred to live your life than the present? (I don't mean just drop in for a visit).
> ...



Midas,

*Life was never good in the past. 

Life will never be good in future. 

Life can never be good.* 

Suffering is a part of life - an inherent feature of life. Suffering can never be eliminated. 

There is Physical suffering - There is Mental suffering. 

In pre-industrial society there were physical diseases caused by virus and bacteria. 
In modern society there are hundreds of lifestyle related physical diseases - Cancer, Stroke, Diabetes, Obesity, Multiple Organ Failures. 


Mental suffering will always exist. It exists in agrarian society. It exists in industrial society. As soon as we stop working we experience mental suffering. 

We avoid mental suffering by working ceaselessly. 

There is no higher purpose behind work. 

People do not work because they want to work. 
People work because they cannot stop working. 

The energy generated by the food we eat forces us to work ceaselessly. 

Energy = Energy[Physical Work] + Energy[Mental Work] + Energy[Suffering/ Subjective Experience] 

All three energies on the right side are inversely proportional to one another. 

When we do hard physical work or hard mental work or a combination of physical work and mental work almost all energy is used up in doing work. 

When we stop physical work and mental work the unused energy is experienced as suffering/ anxiety/ restlessness/ discomfort. This suffering is so intense - so unbearable - that most people cannot stop physical activity and mental activity simultaneously for even 2 minutes - they can stop work/activity only under the influence of drugs and alcohol. 

People do not work because they want to work. 
People do not work for their family. 
People do not work for their nation. 
People do not work for any reason. 

People work because they cannot stop working. 

It does not matter what kind of work we do - whether it is physical work or any kind of mental work. As soon as we stop working we suffer from restlessness, anxiety, uneasiness and discomfort. 

[ In Yoga and Meditation the goal is to stop Physical Activity and Mental Activity simultaneously - and then transform the subjective-experience of restlessness/ anxiety/ suffering into peace. This requires ability and years of effort ] 

For most people the choice is between physical and mental work. 
The switch-over from physical work to mental work is disastrous for the planet. 

Man can do the same physical work every day. 
Man cannot do the same mental work every day. 

When man used to do physical work ( farming and related activities ) he could do the same repetitive work day after day- generation after generation. 

After the Industrial Revolution when man switched-over to mental work he began a never ending process of making new machines / things / products-- a process which can only end with the complete destruction of environment ( planet ). 

Today 50&#37; of world population - 3 bilion people are living in cities. The necessary work of growing/producing Food is being done outside cities - in villages and countryside. Most of the people living in cities are engaged in unnecessary work - making things, buying things and selling things. The switch-over from Physical work to Mental work/ Desk job has led to an endless cycle of unnecessary and destructive work. 

When society switches over from physical work to mental work it starts making thousands of consumer goods. People start calling them necessities. They are not necessities at all - 90% of consumer goods that we see today did not exist 50 years ago. 

Food, Water, Air, Little clothing, Little Shelter - these are necessities. 

Close your nose and stop breathing for a few minutes - you will then know what necessity is.

Stop drinking water for a few days - you will then know what necessity is.

Stop eating food for a few days - you will then know what necessity is.

Today people are making thousands of consumer goods - not because they are necessities - but because they cannot stop making them. People cannot stop doing work - After switching over to mental work they will keep on making thousands of unnecessary consumer goods. Industrial Society is destroying necessary things*[Animals,Trees,Air,Water and Land]* for makng unnecessary things*[Consumer Goods]*. This is the reason why the switch-over from physical work to mental work is so destructive. This is the point of no-return - once this is crossed the destruction of Environment/ Nature is inevitable. 

*If we live a simple life there is individual suffering - but no largescale destruction of Environment.

If we live a consumerist life there is individual suffering - plus largescale destruction of Environment.*

sushil_yadav

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## earthboar

While that was a huge cut & paste, and most of us would have appreciated the article cited rather than posted, some of it I would have to agree with. We have a lot of Tibetan refugees in my area, for instance, and one shop owner told me that the Tibetans were simple people, not by nature clever. The Chinese are more sophisticated and clever, and this very generalized distinction gave them the advantage when it came to dominating Tibet. In the very first part of the very first post (I didn't read the entire _tome_), I think we can see the effects of cultures that reinforce quick intellectual decision on those that take more time to assimilate change. What the Chinese did to the Tibetan world is no different from what the European expansionists did to the Native Americans, no different, whatsoever. Free Tibet? Why not Free North America? Same thing.

This closing gaps in thinking is quite interesting, but is also an artificial contrivance. Not all westerners allow themselves to be continually bombarded with a perpetual stream of marketing and media. Some do, but not all. As a whole, we are asked to process more and more information every year. Tax forms are too big for any one person to understand, and there are far more laws on the books than any one person can or should be expected to comprehend. I'm probably breaking some laws just by sitting here and typing on this computer.

An interesting, related book might be Antonio DaMasio's _Descarte's Error_. DaMasio proposed that western culture took it for granted that, "I think, therefore I am" constitutes truth, and in taking that path we forgot that "I feel, therefore I am" is an equally valid proposition.

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## Virgil

I didn't read much of this, but I did catch a few lines that are incredible if you ask me:




> In pre-industrial society there were physical diseases caused by virus and bacteria. 
> In modern society there are hundreds of lifestyle related physical diseases - Cancer, Stroke, Diabetes, Obesity, Multiple Organ Failures.


Life expectancy in this modern industrial world has reached around 80 years. Primitive man was lucky if he lived to 25. 




> We avoid mental suffering by working ceaselessly. 
> 
> There is no higher purpose behind work. 
> 
> People do not work because they want to work. 
> People work because they cannot stop working.


What did people do before industrialization? Work 14 hours a day on a farm and pray the crops grew or they starved to death. Ever work on a farm my friend? I bet after a year you would beg to work 8 hours a day in a factory in a nice city.

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## Logos

> While that was a huge cut & paste, and most of us would have appreciated the article cited rather than posted....


sushil_yadav has been very busy. *27,100* google hits for "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment"

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## NikolaiI

> I didn't read much of this, but I did catch a few lines that are incredible if you ask me:
> 
> 
> 
> Life expectancy in this modern industrial world has reached around 80 years. Primitive man was lucky if he lived to 25. 
> 
> 
> 
> What did people do before industrialization? Work 14 hours a day on a farm and pray the crops grew or they starved to death. Ever work on a farm my friend? I bet after a year you would beg to work 8 hours a day in a factory in a nice city.


But the problem is what we do to the environment. What if a glacier shelf slides off antarctica into the ocean, raises the water level 60 feet, and kills 95% of the population?

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## sushil_yadav

> sushil_yadav has been very busy. *27,100* google hits for "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment"


Yes, I have posted in many Forums and Blogs. What is wrong with it?

It has taken me 20 years to write the article and I am trying to spread the message. I have not gone around posting at random. I have always posted in Forums that are relevant to the article/ related to keywords in the article.

sushil_yadav

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## sushil_yadav

> I didn't read much of this, but I did catch a few lines that are incredible if you ask me:
> 
> Life expectancy in this modern industrial world has reached around 80 years. Primitive man was lucky if he lived to 25. 
> 
> What did people do before industrialization? Work 14 hours a day on a farm and pray the crops grew or they starved to death. Ever work on a farm my friend? I bet after a year you would beg to work 8 hours a day in a factory in a nice city.


Life expectancy of 80 at what cost - at the cost of destruction of all ecosystems?

Life expectancy of 80 for how long? 
Life expectancy is going to become zero very soon - human life will cease to exist - humans will be lucky to survive a few more decades.

Modern Industrial Society has existed for 100 years - 200 years - 300 years. When we compare this period with the total duration for which human society has existed on earth this period is so short - so small that it almost does'nt exist. It is almost zero. 

Man has lived most of its existence on earth in non-industrial society.

sushil_yadav

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## Lote-Tree

> Life expectancy is going to become zero very soon - human life will cease to exist - humans will be lucky to survive a few more decades.
> 
> sushil_yadav


We have heard this before. But human beings have this uncanny knack for survial! 

I think your assesment is too gloomy. Sure there are challenges for humanity. But we have the power to solve it. All it needs will power!

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## Logos

> Yes, I have posted in many Forums and Blogs. What is wrong with it?
> 
> It has taken me 20 years to write the article and I am trying to spread the message. I have not gone around posting at random. I have always posted in Forums that are relevant to the article/ related to keywords in the article.
> 
> sushil_yadav


You seem a little defensive--I didn't say there was something 'wrong' with it. Just pointing out a fact. But I always wonder why people (like this guy too) have to resort to posting their life's work in public discussion forums instead of having it published in a more scholarly/traditional manner.

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## Virgil

> Life expectancy of 80 at what cost - at the cost of destruction of all ecosystems?
> 
> Life expectancy of 80 for how long? 
> Life expectancy is going to become zero very soon - human life will cease to exist - humans will be lucky to survive a few more decades.
> 
> Modern Industrial Society has existed for 100 years - 200 years - 300 years. When we compare this period with the total duration for which human society has existed on earth this period is so short - so small that it almost does'nt exist. It is almost zero. 
> 
> Man has lived most of its existence on earth in non-industrial society.
> 
> sushil_yadav


Well, Sushil, if you don't want to enjoy the benefits of the modern world, you don't have to. Good luck. I for one thank God I live in the modern world. I enjoy the modern world with all of its comforts and reasonable work days, and if people were presented with the options of pre-industrial with industrial, then I am certain almost everyone would choose the modern world. Even you I doubt lives in a pre-industrial manner. Do you live in a hut? Do you have plumbing? Do you have electricity? Come on, let's get real.

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## NikolaiI

Social change is something that requires networking, and it takes a long time and it is gradual. Unorganized protests are doomed to fail, futile as flipping off a motor-cyclist. Social change will be more successful as a movement (you can't arrest a movement) rather than when they take up a savior for the cause. And Virgil, no one is calling sushil a savior, so let's look at his ideas and discuss them, rather than worrying about what kind of life he leads.

We are killing the environment. Somewhat recently the first species of animal went extinct thanks specifically to global warming, a snail.

About labor; it wasn't _until_ we industrialized that it became so bad for us, when factory workers became cogs in a machine, working themselves to death. I don't totally agree with sushil's equations, but thank you for bringing them up...

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## Virgil

> Social change is something that requires networking, and it takes a long time and it is gradual. Unorganized protests are doomed to fail, futile as flipping off a motor-cyclist. Social change will be more successful as a movement (you can't arrest a movement) rather than when they take up a savior for the cause. And Virgil, no one is calling sushil a savior, so let's look at his ideas and discuss them, rather than worrying about what kind of life he leads.
> 
> We are killing the environment. Somewhat recently the first species of animal went extinct thanks specifically to global warming, a snail.
> 
> About labor; it wasn't _until_ we industrialized that it became so bad for us, when factory workers became cogs in a machine, working themselves to death. I don't totally agree with sushil's equations, but thank you for bringing them up...


Let me ask you nick, how you would want us to lead life? Without modern medicine? That requires factories and factory workers ("cogs" as you call them) to make medicine and equipment. Do you want us to live with cars? Do you us want to live without electricity? How many people are you going to put out of work? Do you us want to live without plumbing? Or airconditioning? Or dishwashers? Or without sheetrock for your walls? Or concrete for you your home foundation or wood (trees cut down, the horror!) for your home? Or are you going to plant all your food? what are you going to use for toilet paper nick, when you find out that there is a factory of cogs that make toilet paper so you can wipe your pampered rear? 

I bet you no one would live like that. I see from your profile you're 19 years old. Well, when you grow up and live real life, come back and debate this with me, especially when you've gone and tried to live your utopia. Then you can tell me how easy it is.

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## NikolaiI

> Let me ask you nick, how you would want us to lead life? Without modern medicine? That requires factories and factory workers ("cogs" as you call them) to make medicine and equipment. Do you want us to live with cars? Do you us want to live without electricity? How many people are you going to put out of work? Do you us want to live without plumbing? Or airconditioning? Or dishwashers? Or without sheetrock for your walls? Or concrete for you your home foundation or wood (trees cut down, the horror!) for your home? Or are you going to plant all your food? what are you going to use for toilet paper nick, when you find out that there is a factory of cogs that make toilet paper so you can wipe your pampered rear? 
> 
> I bet you no one would live like that. I see from your profile you're 19 years old. Well, when you grow up and live real life, come back and debate this with me, especially when you've gone and tried to live your utopia. Then you can tell me how easy it is.


I think we should produce our food locally. If there were a crises in our current situation, there could be lots of starvation in the cities, as it would be hard to bring food in due to traffic concerns. I think we should restructure our cities, among other things. I think sushil had an interesting point in that a lot of our concerns have to do with things that are unnecessary, and as is proven, do not make us happier. 

Another big problem, that has to do with our direct effects on the world, is global warming. There are two antarctic shelves; one of them is on land, and one of them in the water. If the one on land went into the water, it would raise ocean levels 20-60 feet, and this would decimate a lot of the population that lives near the coast. One way to cool down the earth would be to put reflectors in the sky. This is doable. Also, the first species of life has become extinct, not due to our actions but due to global warming. This species was a snail.

Our ages are not relevant to this, and frankly I found your response hostile. If your next post is in a similar tone, I won't reply.

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## Scheherazade

*Please refrain from personalising your comments.*

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## Virgil

> I think we should produce our food locally. If there were a crises in our current situation, there could be lots of starvation in the cities, as it would be hard to bring food in due to traffic concerns. I think we should restructure our cities, among other things. I think sushil had an interesting point in that a lot of our concerns have to do with things that are unnecessary, and as is proven, do not make us happier. 
> 
> Another big problem, that has to do with our direct effects on the world, is global warming. There are two antarctic shelves; one of them is on land, and one of them in the water. If the one on land went into the water, it would raise ocean levels 20-60 feet, and this would decimate a lot of the population that lives near the coast. One way to cool down the earth would be to put reflectors in the sky. This is doable. Also, the first species of life has become extinct, not due to our actions but due to global warming. This species was a snail.
> 
> Our ages are not relevant to this, and frankly I found your response hostile. If your next post is in a similar tone, I won't reply.


Well, I guess it did come across hostile. I meant it as sarcastic and perhaps went over board. I apologize for that. 

But I find your solutions simple at best. I was going to say utopian, but frankly that is even too lofty a term. Do you think anyone can live by raising their own vegtables, without electricity, without factories, without modern medicine? Do you think other than a few people as yourself that anyone would want to? You know, we tried this once. It was called the middle ages.

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## NikolaiI

I know it is a simple thing to say, produce the food locally. But I think it is a very good idea. And that doesn't mean rejecting all technology at all, it just means we rethink the ways our cities and populations are structured/located/fed. As for the other, it matters not what you and I say here on lit-net. Even if I thought we should reject all technology, which might be best for the species in the long term, it would not happen. And let's say we rejected such things, and yet still butchered each other- then it would be as bad as now, or worse. If we rejected them, and figured out a way to live in peace (I know, I know, a lot of people don't want this..) then it might be better. I do accept this as being utopian and idealist, and I do admit myself to be utopian and idealist, it is just how I am. If you want to talk about that, fine. My father does, he comes from a more cynical point of view, and I could get into all the personal history and background, but I'd rather not. But suffice it to say that I am not unaware of reality, I actually pride myself on my wakefulness...and then let go of that pride.

..And when I say "as bad as now" I do not mean anything particular by it. I do not, in fact, mean things are bad now. But we cannot really go into that, for it is politics.

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## Virgil

> I know it is a simple thing to say, produce the food locally. But I think it is a very good idea. And that doesn't mean rejecting all technology at all, it just means we rethink the ways our cities and populations are structured/located/fed.


OK, so paint a picture for me as to how this would work? Rethink for me what cities and life should be like.




> As for the other, it matters not what you and I say here on lit-net. Even if I thought we should reject all technology, which might be best for the species in the long term, it would not happen. And let's say we rejected such things, and yet still butchered each other- then it would be as bad as now, or worse. If we rejected them, and figured out a way to live in peace (I know, I know, a lot of people don't want this..) then it might be better. I do accept this as being utopian and idealist, and I do admit myself to be utopian and idealist, it is just how I am. If you want to talk about that, fine. My father does, he comes from a more cynical point of view, and I could get into all the personal history and background, but I'd rather not. But suffice it to say that I am not unaware of reality, I actually pride myself on my wakefulness...and then let go of that pride.


No, you don't have to tell me about your personal history. And you sound like a nice young man. I have my ideals too, it's just that they are somewhat different than yours. I wish for humanity, everywhere, in all countries, to live at the highest standard of living. And at peace. I just believe how we get there is different than how you think we should get there. To summarize my point of view, industry and modern technology, in contrast to Sushil, has made people's lives far better, and the spread of that technology to all people would make people's lives better. Don't tell me the suffering that goes on in Africa would not be helped by a modern way of life.

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## sushil_yadav

> Well, Sushil, if you don't want to enjoy the benefits of the modern world, you don't have to. Good luck. I for one thank God I live in the modern world. I enjoy the modern world with all of its comforts and reasonable work days, and if people were presented with the options of pre-industrial with industrial, then I am certain almost everyone would choose the modern world. Even you I doubt lives in a pre-industrial manner. Do you live in a hut? Do you have plumbing? Do you have electricity? Come on, let's get real.



Virgil,

Sure, you live in the modern world.

You live in America.
You live in the country where 5% of world population is consuming 40% of world resources.

The entire world knows "The Great American Dream is a Nightmare for the Planet".

It is you who needs to get real - it is you who needs to do some introspection.

sushil_yadav

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## Logos

Mod Note: any more negative personal comments directed at other members will get this closed.

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## Virgil

> Virgil,
> 
> Sure, you live in the modern world.
> 
> You live in America.
> You live in the country where 5% of world population is consuming 40% of world resources.
> 
> The entire world knows "The Great American Dream is a Nightmare for the Planet".
> 
> ...


The US is consuming 40% of the world's resources? Where did you get that? Probably bogus. And even if we were, we're paying for it, so tell the other parts of the world not to sell it to us. No introspection will ever get me to not live my dream. Look, you want to live like a pauper or a caveman feel free. Don't tell me how to live my life.

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## sushil_yadav

Industrial Society is destroying necessary things *[Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land]* for making unnecessary things *[Consumer Goods].*

When we make consumer goods we kill Animals/ Trees, Air/ Water and Land - *directly or indirectly.*

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems - *all* Industrial Societies destroy ecosystems.

It hardly matters whether it is *"Capitalist Industrial Society"* - *"Communist Industrial Society"* - or *"Socialist Industrial Society".*

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems at every stage of its functioning - when consumer goods are produced - when consumer goods are used - when consumer goods are discarded/ recycled.

Raw material for industry is obtained by cutting up Forests. It is extracted by mining/ digging up the earth. It comes by destroying/ killing Trees, Animals and Land.

Industries/ Factories use Water. The water that comes out of Factories is contaminated with hundreds of toxic chemicals. Industry kills Water. What to speak of Rivers - entire Oceans have been polluted.

Industry/ Factories burn millions of tonnes of fuel and when raw material is melted/ heated up, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into the atmosphere. Industry kills Air.

Industrial Society has covered millions of square miles of land with cement and concrete. Industry kills Land.

When consumer goods are discarded/ thrown away in landfills it again leads to destruction of ecosystems. 

When consumer goods are recycled, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into air, water and land. 

Consumer goods are sold/ marketed through a network of millions of kilometers of rail / road network and shipping routes which causes destruction of all ecosystems that come in the way. 


*"Growth Rate" - "Economy Rate" - "GDP"

These are figures of "Ecocide".
These are figures of "crimes against Nature".
These are figures of "destruction of Ecosystems". 
These are figures of "Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality".*


sushil_yadav
*Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*

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## Granny5

> Industrial Society is destroying necessary things *[Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land]* for making unnecessary things *[Consumer Goods].*
> 
> When we make consumer goods we kill Animals/ Trees, Air/ Water and Land - *directly or indirectly.*
> 
> Industrial Society destroys ecosystems - *all* Industrial Societies destroy ecosystems.
> 
> It hardly matters whether it is *"Capitalist Industrial Society"* - *"Communist Industrial Society"* - or *"Socialist Industrial Society".*
> 
> Industrial Society destroys ecosystems at every stage of its functioning - when consumer goods are produced - when consumer goods are used - when consumer goods are discarded/ recycled.
> ...


So what do you propose?
No manifactured goods?
No heating?
No home building?
No food production?
Tell us, what do you propose to remendy the problem? If you are so sure that all these things are evil and doing harm to everything, you must have some solution in mind. Please share it with us.

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## Morrisonhotel

> You seem a little defensive--I didn't say there was something 'wrong' with it. Just pointing out a fact. But I always wonder why people (like this guy too) have to resort to posting their life's work in public discussion forums instead of having it published in a more scholarly/traditional manner.


Presumably because scholarly usually means peer-reviewed.

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## NikolaiI

I think if we disabled 99.9&#37; of roads, stopped use of that much electricity and gas. disable most of the roads; we still live in our houses, and we can make houses, we just don't do it on such scales as before. produce the food locally and move it in a way that doesn't hurt the environment. Otherwise we will be dead very soon. Recreate trees, the one resource we really can renew, and hope for the best...

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## Virgil

> I think if we disabled 99.9% of roads, stopped use of that much electricity and gas. disable most of the roads; we still live in our houses, and we can make houses, we just don't do it on such scales as before. produce the food locally and move it in a way that doesn't hurt the environment. Otherwise we will be dead very soon. Recreate trees, the one resource we really can renew, and hope for the best...


How long is "dead very soon?" Two months? Two years? Ten years? Let me know. I ned to prepare.

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## Granny5

I personally think that we shouldn't fuss about the things that we enjoy. If I felt that electric power was wrong and killing the world, I wouldn't use any. And if I felt that it was wrong to live in a home built by killing the world's trees, I wouldn't live in a home. How can anyone justify taking advantage of the comforts of modern life and complain about the evils of it at the same time? I like modern life.

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## Midas

If there is one thing that is constant in life, it is change. The life that exists today is because it has adapted to that change. The stone age did not end because the world ran out of stones. those living at the time slowly adapted to change which they eventually perceived was better.

Some people resist change, and suffer the consequences, which can vary according to the extent of their resistance.

Although the movement marked from the agrarian age to the industrial occurred some four hundred years ago (there is no precise beginning) it has been a progression of accelerating change since that time.

Technology, especially recent advances in information technology takes over from the mind of man which cannot keep pace. A bright young spark of our age;- William (Bill) Gates wrote a book 'Business at the speed of Thought.'

We are hampered by the inability to explore all the opportunities that even our present discoveries have brought forth. we have not developed our minds to anything near one quarter potential. ( I am being generous there)

How many people have expensive, state of the art, super fast computers, yet only use them for mundane tasks that even an old, cheaper version could do. To an extent, even I am guilty here. So it is not the lack of awareness that hold many back.

Is there any other past age in which you would like to serve your life sentence, than the one you are living now? Think first, and answer, to yourself, truthfully.
(I don't mean flip back in a time machine for a couple of hours, or so)

Change can often be 'uncomfortable,' it can make us insecure. We like the familiar. We have sayings like - better the devil you know........... This is what makes many stay in relationships which common sense, never mind their friends, tells them they should get out of.

It is a waste of time, and energy, looking to returning to the past, it is like wanting to return to our youth (if we've passed it). Time is a forward movement. Only the hands on a clock will move back, the time does not.

Some of my most unhappiest moments have been when I have tried to go back to my past, and, consequently, I won't enlarge.

Fighting lost causes, and wishing for the past, are fools pursuits. It wastes the one thing that is precious, and can never be replaced - TIME!

Therefore apply the mind to seeing benefits of the age, and, for better or for worse, adapting to them, and enjoying them. It's all you have got. Life, on earth, is not a practice run. Live it, love it, and seize the day.

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## Midas

As I mentioned in the opening of my above post that life is one of constant never ending change. However, what is not realised by so many is that change has also brought about the pace of change.

In the early days of human existence, change was slow and related far more to nature. In nature, as with a stone in natural situ, even today, the change if left only to the normal elements is imperceptible in a persons lifetime - and beyond.

However, as the mind of man has developed (not destroyed) he (this includes she) has innovated, and brought forth from his imagination developments that have chain reacted by cause and effect to increase the pace by which change has brought about further change.

We have always been limited only really by our ability to think, imagine, and communicate our thoughts and findings.

Books, and printing, increased the pace at which records could be made and circulated.

Then we had the telephone, and the computer - the latter still in its infancy.

To illustrate my point. From what I have read, the use of fire was known to homo sapiens about one and a half million years ago. But some historians say that it took over a million years before he started to rub two sticks together, and spread the word by 'monkey see, monkey do'.

Yet the humble match was not even known at the time of the American Revolution. In fact, the match was not invented until the early 19th century.

Think of the very highly sophisticated inventions that have occurred over the past 100 years, the past fifty years. Think, as change gathers pace, and computers provide much of the 'thinking' for man, and transfers this thought at ever increasing speeds - HOW WILL LIFE BE IN ANOTHER FIFTY YEARS?

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## sushil_yadav

> We are nothing more than like a bunch of insects put into a jar by a larger being who watches. When we were few we were as mindful as an ant with a purpose relying on his instincts, but now are swarms in turmoil feeding off each other and the crumbs that are left. Deluded that we are that larger being and have wisdom and yet we can not see beyond that which holds us. In our mindless pursuits we are merely clawing at the glass and the words that come from our breath is fogging our vision to see clearly.


*Nymo,*

Thanks for your views.

Humans have spent more than 99% of their time on earth in *non-industrial societies.*

Non-industrial society destroys ecosystems for *food, clothing and shelter.*
Industrial society destroys ecosystems for food, clothing and shelter *plus thousands of unnecessary consumer goods.*

Industrial society destroys necessary things *- animals, trees, air, water and land* for making unnecessary things *- consumer goods.*

Non-industrial societies have sustained on earth for thousands of years.
Industrial society has destroyed all ecosystems within 200 - 250 years.


*"Growth Rate" - "Economy Rate" - "GDP" 

These are figures of "Ecocide". 
These are figures of "crimes against Nature". 
These are figures of "destruction of Ecosystems". 
These are figures of "Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality".* 


*Destroy consumerism......before it is too late.

Destroy Industrial Society......before it is too late.

Just do it.*


sushil_yadav

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## Adopt

> We are killing the environment. Somewhat recently the first species of animal went extinct thanks specifically to global warming, a snail.



The earth has been warming and cooling for millions of years, causing extinction to many species of animals, plants, and other life forms. If you're trying to say that man-induced global warming has caused the extinction of this snail, there is hardly enough correlation to prove whether we are causing the warming, or if it's a natural cycle with irregularities in sun activity.

My apologies, I got a little sidetracked.


I have one posing question for your article sushil:

In the test you'd wish to perform, how do you propose to measure the intensity of the emotions? This is qualitative data, and science relies on quantitative data. Even finding a chemical correlation would not ensure accurate results.

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## sushil_yadav

> I have one posing question for your article sushil:
> 
> In the test you'd wish to perform, how do you propose to measure the intensity of the emotions? This is qualitative data, and science relies on quantitative data. Even finding a chemical correlation would not ensure accurate results.


*Adopt,*

Thanks for your post.

The experiments I have proposed are primarily meant for those people who understand only the language of science. We don't need experiments to understand that our present lifestyle is destroying our Minds and Environment - the evidence is everywhere - left, right and center. The craze and fetish for science and scientific proof has mainly existed for the last 50 - 100 years. People have lived on this planet for thousands of years without needing scientific proof to understand something. It is Science and Technology that created the consumerist Industrial Society which has led to the destruction of Nature/ Environment and restlessness of mind. Who needs more science or more scientific proof. *Science is not the solution - Science is the problem.* 

Some people demand proof of everything. They won't accept anything without proof. How do people accept their father as their father? Where is the proof? 
Scientific proof comes from DNA testing. How many people have got the DNA test conducted? 

Two things that have destroyed Environment are - Overpopulation and Overconsumerism. Science and Technology is responsible for both these problems. World population was less than 1 billion in the year 1800. Nature had its way of controlling population through disease and death caused by bacteria and virus. When man made medicines/ antibiotics he created disaster - population increased very rapidly. In the absence of "Industrial Agriculture" the feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control. If Industrial Revolution had not happened, environmental destruction due to production of consumer goods would not exist. In the absence of Science, Technology and "Industrial Revolution" we would not be facing the two problems that have caused destruction of ecosystems - overpopulation and overconsumerism. 

*Science is not the solution - Science is the problem.* 

sushil_yadav

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## blazeofglory

This allergy or kind of antipathy to science is a baseless obsession and not anything to take pride in in point of fact. Science is not to blame and it is indeed we human beings that make misuse of it.

Science is homogeneously consistent with the evolution of man, and man keeps on evolving eternally.

Now you would be in a cave if there was no science. And if we choose to be cave men and argue for that kind of life we are simply hypocritically behaving.

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## yanni

Like it or not, materialism is the result of 18th century's "philosophical discoveries". 

Only just, I went through reading Chastellux's "An Essay on Public Happiness: Investigating the State of Human Nature...". (1772)

It was mainly he who inspired Franklin, Washington and Jefferson,advising them to deviate from greek and roman philosophy and be at ease with their "wealth", the result of "new territory"and "science unlimited" combined.

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## blazeofglory

We suffer and live a stressful life owing to civilization and industrialization.

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## sushil_yadav

For several decades environmentalists have been warning modern society that ecosystems are getting destroyed - that consumerist lifestyle is not sustainable. 

But modern society which was busy chasing progress, growth and development did not listen. It refused to believe there was any environmental crisis or problem. It said science and technology will always find a solution - if earth gets destroyed we will move on to another planet. 

Impossible dreams were sold to people in the name of science and technology.

Moving to another planet would probably rank as the most impossible of all impossible things.

One space shuttle exploded during take off - another exploded on the return journey.

So far man has not been able to go beyond the moon. There is no other life sustaining ecosystem/ planet within the solar system. Outside the solar system planets and galaxies are millions of light years away - billions of light years away.

So when are we moving to a new home ?

Next year - or 5 years later ? 


sushil_yadav


*Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*

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## Bruce Bradley

I read most of this post and I think it is interesting but everyone knows that the past is the past. There is no going back right now. I bet there isn't one person out there on this web site that doesn't have A/C or a Television. We all have a choice to use them and we all choose to. We are spoiled and have lost faith in the simple things in life. Basically we live to die and let it hurry up. This is so sad for anyone to feel that way. All we have to do is slow down and enjoy the simple things. We all have the power to do it if we want to. Question is can you go a day without driving or watching TV. Better than that turn the A/C off on a hot summer day. I bet you only last a couple hours or until you start to sweat.

I work as supervisor running industrial projects, I have a lot time dealing with the younger generation. Most refuse to work outdoors to make good money. I have to hire Mexicans to complete jobs because I can't get our youth to do them. This is a major problem because we have became too educated and figure we don't have do but what we want to do. The Media doesn't help this by only broadcasting the bad in us all. We need a time of hardships to get us up to do the right things again. Let me say this hard work never hurt no one, try cutting your own grass for a change. See the outcome, it can be over whelming to watch plants grow. This is our ego system and you can't experence it from a book. Face it life will always go on and people will exist through out time. It is a matter of how we live that is at stake. I feel at sometime we will convert back to the ways of old, it will be because of necessity, not because anyone's wants it.

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## sushil_yadav

> I feel at sometime we will convert back to the ways of old, it will be because of necessity, not because anyone's wants it.





> We suffer and live a stressful life owing to civilization and industrialization.


*Industrial Society has been spreading blatant lies over the years.* 

*"Green Industry", "Green Technology", "Ethical Consumerism", "Sustainable Development".*

*These are contradictory terms – these are oxymorons.*
*Industrialization can never be green – it is impossible.*

*You cannot save a person after you have killed him.
You cannot save ecosystems after you have killed them for making consumer goods.*


When we make consumer goods we kill Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land *- directly or indirectly.*

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems - *all* Industrial Societies destroy ecosystems.

It hardly matters whether it is *"Capitalist Industrial Society"* - *"Communist Industrial Society"* - or *"Socialist Industrial Society".*

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems at every stage of its functioning - when consumer goods are produced - when consumer goods are used - when consumer goods are discarded/ recycled.

Raw material for industry is obtained by cutting up Forests. It is extracted by mining/ digging up the earth. It comes by destroying/ killing Trees, Animals and Land.

Industries/ Factories use Water. The water that comes out of Factories is contaminated with hundreds of toxic chemicals. What to speak of Rivers - entire Oceans have been polluted. Industry kills Water.

Industries/ Factories burn millions of tonnes of fuel - and when raw material is melted/ heated up, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into the atmosphere. Industry kills Air.

Industrial Society has covered millions of square miles of land with cement and concrete. Industry kills Land.

When consumer goods are discarded/ thrown away in landfills it again leads to destruction of ecosystems. 

When consumer goods are recycled, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into air, water and land. 

Consumer goods are sold/ marketed through a network of millions of kilometers of rail / road network and shipping routes which causes destruction of all ecosystems that come in the way. 


*We have limited resources/ ecosystems on earth which is just 40,000 km in circumference.

If we destroy ecosystems for fewer things [food, clothing, shelter] the ecosystems will last longer.

If we destroy ecosystems for more things [consumer goods] the ecosystems will finish much sooner.

The fewer things we make the more sustainable we are. 

This is common sense - plain common sense - which the so called smart, intelligent, advanced, civilized and developed Industrial Society does not possess.*


We are alive because of ecosystems - we owe our very existence to ecosystems.

Industrial Society has destroyed most ecosystems within a span of 250 years after Industrial Revolution. 

Industrial Society has destroyed necessary things *[animals, trees, air, water and land]* for making unnecessary things *[consumer goods].*

Ecosystems are not consumer goods that can be manufactured, repaired or restored by MultiNational Companies in industries and factories.

The collapse has already happened for millions of other species. Most of them have been decimated.

Very soon it will be the turn of man to go.


sushil_yadav

*Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*

----------


## NikolaiI

It's not entirely impossible, it's at least theoretically possible to run everything on solar power... we may have to produce less, and you are right that we should be more careful.

----------


## blazeofglory

The root of everything is living sumptuously and harnessing resources beyond capacities. 

Industrialization is leveraged owing to the philosophy that greed is a virtue.

----------


## trueromantic

I'll put forward one solution seen as though theres hardly been a dearth- Giant trees. Trees give us the things we really need, air, food, shelter, medicine, they give life to all things. We could do worse than live in societies with as many trees as possible, perhaps genetically enhance them to improve air output but who knows. Ginat trees, yeah  :Smash:  order, order.

----------


## The Atheist

> For several decades environmentalists have been warning modern society that ecosystems are getting destroyed - that consumerist lifestyle is not sustainable.


I hope you're still a member here, because I haven't seen this thread previously, and you raise a most interesting topic.

I think your thinking is a little flawed, and if you reply, I'll be glad to go through that. 




> But modern society which was busy chasing progress, growth and development did not listen. It refused to believe there was any environmental crisis or problem. It said science and technology will always find a solution - if earth gets destroyed we will move on to another planet. 
> 
> Impossible dreams were sold to people in the name of science and technology.
> 
> Moving to another planet would probably rank as the most impossible of all impossible things.


Oddly enough, I hear this view espoused by several otherwise intelligent people and I do find it incredible that anyone is stupid enough to think this is possible.

It's taken us 40 years of "space travel" to land a few blokes on the moon, get one telescope working and nearly build an international space station which might work.

Aside from the logistics of keeping a breeding population alive for probably hundreds of years, humans aren't designed to live in zero-G, and that will require either forced anatomical evolution, or artificial gravity.

I agree - probably the most laughable suggestion ever.




> *Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*





> The root of everything is living sumptuously and harnessing resources beyond capacities. 
> 
> Industrialization is leveraged owing to the philosophy that greed is a virtue.


Mammon is the real god.

----------


## sushil_yadav

> The root of everything is *living sumptuously and harnessing resources beyond capacities.* 
> 
> Industrialization is leveraged owing to the philosophy that greed is a virtue.





> I hope you're still a member here, because I haven't seen this thread previously, and you raise a most interesting topic.



What is most amazing about the issue of sustainability is the fact that modern society is trying to sustain the unsustainable - it is trying to sustain a consumerist system which has existed for almost zero percent of human existence on earth. The present consumerist lifestyle has existed for about 100 years. If we compare this with the total duration of human existence on earth it comes to almost zero percent. 

Economy is a non-issue. Environment is important. Economy will not even exist without environment. Humans will not even exist without environment. 

*Modern society has plunged to extreme depths of insanity.

Modern society thinks it can be sustainable while it continues producing thousands of consumer goods.

Modern society thinks a peaceul world is possible while it continues to sell billions of tonnes of weapons all over the world.

Modern society thinks cancer can be cured while it continues flooding the ecosystems with thousands of carcinogens.* 

On a small planet which is just 40,000 km in circumference the first rule of sustainability is *- destroy less.* 

We destroy ecosystems for food - for clothing - for shelter - and for thousands of consumer goods.

*The less we destroy - the more sustainable we are.

The fewer things we make - the more sustainable we are.*

On a small planet like earth only a non-consumerist society can be sustainable - only a society that destroys ecosystems for food, clothing, shelter[and health care] can be sustainable.



When something goes wrong with our cars, computers and aeroplanes, we contact the manufacturer to know how they could be repaired - where they could be repaired.

All ecosystems on earth are getting destroyed moment by moment. To repair, restore and regenerate them we need to contact the manufacturer. *But where is the manufacturer of ecosystems? There is no human manufacturer - There are no multiNational Companies that manufactured rivers and oceans, fertile soil, forests, millions of species, millions of members in millions of species, arctic ice and other glaciers.* 

About 30 years ago most people refused to believe that arctic ice was melting or could melt in future. 

Then satellite pictures started appearing and provided proof with "before and after" pictures. People reluctantly accepted that ice was melting - but were still not alarmed. They said it would take hundreds of years - thousands of years for ice to melt to a dangerous level.

If we compare satellite pictures of arctic ice of this year with those taken 30 years ago we would know how alarming the situation is.

Every ecosystem is in grave danger. The doomsday scenario is approaching hundreds of times faster than predicted earlier. *The signs - the indicators are already there - the recent climate changes - the extreme weather conditions - droughts, floods, fires, hurricanes and typhoons. The collapse has already happened for millions of other species - they have been decimated. Human collapse is very near - just around the corner.* 


sushil_yadav
*Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*

----------


## blazeofglory

Today we cannot think about living non-industrially. If there was no industry we now could not post what we feel about it and this togetherness between you and me across a multitude of geographies, economies, political peripheries could not be imagined if it was not for industry; of course the industrial revolution was indispensable, and that got us where we are now from the era of farming. 

Simplicity is preferable, something we crave for, the way pastoral communities and rustic life styles seem to us we feel very nostalgic about it.

But the point is evolution is man's natural course. Man does not remain the same and his aspirations, dreams, imaginations and industriousness grow bigger over time and that exactly set us here in an age of technology.

But the problem lies in the fact that man's decline commences with industrialization. There is so much greed; injustice prevails everywhere, and one man enslaves and batters another, and hounds for amassing more and more. He hungers for mountains of wealth creation.

And thus it creates divisiveness and fragmentation.

We are divided between the rich and very starved poor. Money is a tool for slaving people and ruling the world. This is in part what we got together with industrialization in point of fact.

----------


## isidro

My quite excellent blaze of glory, I fear I must respectfully point out a point or two missed in your discourse. Firstly, there was slavery among the Romans etc long before the industrial revolution. There are plenty of slavery venues including ignorance which may arguably create worse effects than the whole money issue. 

Secondly my dear friend, to argue that we CANNOT think about living in a non industrial society seems something of a fallacy since we CAN but generally choose not to do so. It would be a massive change, yes, but we as humans can in fact make massive changes and still stay intact. 

Perhaps if humanity began finding joy in simplicity and honor in human kindness there might be less of an overdrive toward the industrial and the negative effects that accompany it. But if we are to preach such things, the beginning of the solution must of necessity begin with us. If we wish to heal the breach between rich and poor let's work very hard and use our resources to reach out and aid. And in doing so we might make something of a difference and ourselves be happier people.

----------


## sushil_yadav

> But the problem lies in the fact that man's decline commences with industrialization.





> Perhaps if humanity began finding joy in simplicity and honor in human kindness there might be less of an overdrive toward the industrial and the negative effects that accompany it.


*Very soon science is going to announce the gene for environmental destruction.

Humans are not responsible for environmental destruction - it is the gene.*

Humans are not responsible for anything - the genes are responsible for everything.

It is the gene which is responsible for obesity.

It is the gene which is responsible for cancer.

It is the gene which is responsible for violence/ aggression.

It is the gene which is responsible for mental suffering.


*When it comes to Olympic medal they will give it to a person - not to the gene.

When it comes to Nobel Prize they will give it to a person - not to the gene.

When it comes to rewarding work they will pay million dollar salary to the CEO - not to the gene.

When it comes to "Theory of Relativity" they will give credit to Einstein - not to the gene.*



*On earth we have got oceans and oceans of water - which have been polluted/ poisoned by man - but this is hardly news for humans.

Recently Man bombarded the moon with a rocket to discover traces of water - and it became the newspaper headline across the world.

They call it progress, growth, development.*

Height of insanity - Height of abnormality.

Don't search for a few molecules of water in outer space. 

Take care of the water that is available on earth. 


sushil_yadav
*Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*

----------


## blazeofglory

> *Very soon science is going to announce the gene for environmental destruction.
> 
> Humans are not responsible for environmental destruction - it is the gene.*
> 
> Humans are not responsible for anything - the genes are responsible for everything.
> 
> It is the gene which is responsible for obesity.
> 
> It is the gene which is responsible for cancer.
> ...


These are great insights in point of fact. If we have these insights we will think once before subjecting ourselves to the destruction of nature.

----------


## flannel

i agree

----------


## Dinkleberry2010

makes me want to read a book

----------


## jbrace

> *Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment* 
> 
> Dear Group Members, 
> 
> I want to share an article with you. This is about the link between Mind and Social / Environmental-Issues. The article examines why Writers, Poets and Artists experience more emotion than other people - and would be of interest to members of this forum. The fast-paced, consumerist lifestyle of Industrial Society is causing exponential rise in psychological problems besides destroying the environment. All issues are interlinked. Our Minds cannot be peaceful when attention-spans are down to nanoseconds, microseconds and milliseconds. Our Minds cannot be peaceful if we destroy Nature. 
> 
> Thank you, 
> Sushil Yadav 
> 
> ...


I think this is what Tolkien was trying to get across in his books.

----------


## sushil_yadav

Industrial Society is speeding up the demise of ecosystems by providing jobs to all - education to all.

After Industrial Revolution work turned into extra work, over work, unnecessary work, destructive work.

Most of the people living in cities are engaged in the destructive cycle of
production of consumer goods, selling of consumer goods, buying of
consumer goods.This planet is very small - just 40,000 km in
circumference. Today 50% of world population is living in cities - and
this percentage is increasing day by day.

Provide jobs to all?
Provide education to all? - oh yes, provide jobs/education to all and
very soon the human species will go out of existence.

The entire education system is promoting consumerism, extra work, over work, unnecessary work, destructive work.

People who are getting education in technology/ engineering.... are engaged in production of consumer goods.

People who are getting education in the fields of business, finance, MBA....are engaged in selling of consumer goods.

Most of the people getting education in Arts subjects are also engaged in
selling of consumer goods and services - sales and marketing jobs.

If we destroy ecosystems for food, clothing, shelter, health-care the ecosystems will last longer. If we destroy ecosystems for consumer goods in addition to food, clothing, shelter, health-care the ecosystems will finish much sooner.

Industrial Society has destroyed necessary things [animals, trees, air, water,land] for making unnecessary things [consumer goods].

By providing jobs to all - education to all, Industrial Society is destroying the very things that created and sustained all life on earth for millions of years.

Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.



What would happen to your home if 1000 people entered and started doing work continuously - 24 X 7 - picking up things already lying in the house, breaking them up and making new things out of them without stopping?

A similar thing is happening to the planet - 6.8 billion people
continuously engaging in work - destroying the ecosystems moment by
moment.

Man started destroying "extra" after Industrial Revolution. This "extra"
destruction has risen exponentially in the last 50 years.

Work has turned into overwork, unnecessary work, destructive work. People who are working to provide food, clothing, shelter and healthcare are doing work - rest of the population is engaged in overwork, unnecessary work, destructive work.

Ecosystems are not consumer goods that can be manufactured / created by MultiNational Corporations. Who can undo the damage that has been done to ecosystems by billions of people over a period of 200 - 250 years?



Industrial Society has killed billions of acres of fertile soil by covering it with cement and concrete.This is insanity of the highest degree - insanity raised to the power of infinity.We
have got a very small planet. On this small planet two-thirds of
surface area is water. Only one-third is land - and this includes vast
areas of land that are not fertile - deserts, rocky
mountains, ice/ glaciers. There is very little surface area on
earth which is fertile. It is this fertile soil that has produced food
for millions of species that have lived on land for millions of years. Killing billions of acres of fertile soil is insanity of the highest degree - insanity raised to the power of infinity.The punishment is coming - very soon - punishment of the highest degree - punishment raised to the power of infinity.



"Green Industry", "Green Technology", "Green Development".

These are contradictory terms  these are oxymorons.
Industrialization can never be green  it is impossible.

Industry produces three kinds of waste - solid, liquid and gaseous.

There are only three places on earth where this waste can go - air, water, land.

There is no fourth place on earth where Industrial waste can go.

Industrial Society has produced billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous waste - billions of tonnes of metal waste, chemical waste, plastic waste, eWaste, nuclear waste.........

This waste has killed, polluted and poisoned rivers, lakes, oceans, underground water, the soil/ land, the air/ sky.

Industrialization can never be green  it is impossible.



We have created a society that rapes, plunders and exploits "Mother Earth" 365 days of the year - and then celebrates Earth Day.

When someone destroys the home of a human being it is considered a crime and the accused is sent to prison.

When the human species collectively destroys the homes [ecosystems] of millions of other species it is called Progress, Growth, Development.

The police, the law, the judiciary are trying to catch a few criminals - they do not realize the entire Industrial Society is criminal.

Psychologists and Psychiatrists are trying to classify a few people as abnormal - they do not realize the entire Industrial Society is abnormal.



What is most amazing about the issue of sustainability is the fact that modern society is trying to sustain the unsustainable - it is trying to sustain a consumerist system which has existed for almost zero percent of human existence on earth. The present consumerist lifestyle has existed for about 100 years. If we com...pare this with the total duration of human existence on earth it comes to almost zero percent.

The two things that have destroyed Environment are - Overpopulation and Overconsumerism.

Science, Technology and Industrialization are responsible for both these problems. World population was less than 1 billion in the year 1800. Nature had its way of controlling population through disease and death caused by bacteria and virus. When man made medicines/ antibiotics he created disaster - population increased very rapidly. In the absence of "Industrial Agriculture" the feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control. If Industrial Revolution had not happened, environmental destruction due to production of consumer goods would not exist. In the absence of Science, Technology and "Industrial Revolution" we would not be facing the two problems that have caused destruction of ecosystems - overpopulation and overconsumerism.

If "Industrial Revolution" had not happened what would be the scenario today?

The feeding capacity of soil would have kept population under control.

Diseases caused by virus and bacteria would have kept population under control.

Maybe I would'nt be existing today - and billions of others may not have existed - but millions/ billions of humans would exist [just like they existed before Industrialization]

Most ecosystems would be hundreds of times/ thousands of times in better shape than today.

Millions of other species that have been decimated by Industrial Society would be existing in very healthy numbers - their population levels thousands of times greater than what they are now.

Providing food, clothing, shelter and healthcare is good. But did "Industrial Society" stop at that?

Do we have an Industrial Society that only provides food, clothing, shelter and healthcare to people?

No - the jokers tried to sell hundreds of consumer goods to all citizens of Industrial Society. They tried to make all people consumerists.

Industrial Society started destroying ecosystems for "consumer goods" in addition to destroying them for food, clothing and shelter.

You cannot do this on a small planet that is just 40,000 km in circumference. If you live this way you end up destroying all ecosystems - you end up decimating all other species - you end up destroying animals, trees, air, water and land - the very things that created and sustained all life on earth.



The earth is sick.

Ecosystems are dying.

Animals, trees, air, water and land are dying.

People say - why bother, it was meant to happen this way, nature will take care of itself.

When people fall sick - they rush to the doctor to save themselves.

When people fall sick - they rush to the hospital to save themselves.

Insane, abnormal, selfish, criminal human species.



Almost every country has been claiming its green cover is increasing.

How can this ever be true?

A fully grown tree is cut down in seconds/ minutes.

It takes 20 years for a tree to grow fully.

The rate of destruction of fully grown trees is hundreds of thousands
of times greater than the rate of replacement of fully grown trees.

And only a small percentage of trees that are planted survive to grow into healthy adult trees.

And even if you manage to replace trees how are you going to replace
the population of millions of species of animals, birds and insects
that lived in the forest and died when the forest was cut down.

Secondly where are you planting new trees? You can plant new trees on forest land only if forest land remains forest land.

But this is not the case.

We have got a very small planet whose circumference is just 40,000 km.
On this small planet two-thirds of surface area is water. Included in
the remaining land area are deserts, rocky mountains and glaciers which
do not support vegetation.

If the soil is fertile and gets rain it will grow forests, trees,
plants, vegetation by itself. This is how nature grew all the forests
in this world.

Before the arrival of man all the land that could grow forests had forests on it.

Then the genius human species arrived on the scene.

First he cut down forests for fire, then he cut down forests for
agriculture and villages. After Industrial Revolution forests were cut
down for towns and cities, for setting up industries/ factories, for
mining and extraction of raw material/minerals, for railways, for road
network.

So once the forest is cut down the land is taken up for agriculture,
for cattle grazing, for industry, for towns and cities, for rail and
road network.

So where are the new trees being planted? Where are they growing up?

How can green cover ever increase?

Lies, lies, lies .........blatant lies.

The rate of destruction of forests has risen exponentially after Industrial Revolution.

One can know the truth by looking at the satellite pictures of forests - before and after. One can compare the pictures taken 30 years ago with those taken this year.



Why did God create the insane human species that is ready to do
everything for the wrong cause and nothing for the right cause  a
species which is willing to do everything to destroy the ecosystems and
nothing to save the ecosystems.

Man is ready to kill and get killed for religion, for country, for honour, for power, for money and fame - But not for environment.

Millions have been killed over trivial issues and causes.
Millions have died for trivial issues and causes.

How many people have died for environment? How many people have died for
the most important / precious things on earth  animals, trees, air,
water and land  the very things that created and sustained all life on
earth.

Most of the ecosystems are already gone. The
little that remains is dying moment by moment. The situation is
extremely critical but the human response is limited to the same old
insanity  bring this technology, bring that technology - bring this technology, bring that technology.

Environmentalism has failed.
Environmentalism never existed.
It was Pseudo-Environmentalism all the way.


When 3000 people died in World Trade Center collapse the west was outraged - Killers, Murderers, Terrorists - they cried out. America vowed to smoke out the culprits - attacked Afghanistan, flattened the country and killed hundreds of thousands of people [directly or indirectly].

When American company "Union Carbide"... killed 20,000 people in Bhopal, India the same desire for justice was not shown by the west.

Why? - Is this not killing, murder, terrorism?

There are hundreds of insecticides/ pesticides that are banned in western countries but the west is selling millions of tonnes of these chemicals in asia - leading to millions of deaths [directly or indirectly].

Is this not killing, murder, terrorism?

The west is shipping millions of tonnes of toxic , hazardous waste to asian countries for recycling - leading to millions of deaths [directly or indirectly].

Is this not killing, murder, terrorism?

The Military Industrial Complex has killed millions of people in wars. No terrorist organization has killed that many people.

Industry kills - Industry kills humans, Industry kills animals, Industry kills trees, Industry kills air, Industry kills water, Industry kills land.

Industry is the killer - Industry is the murderer - Industry is the
terrorist.



Destruction of ecosystems will soon lead to collapse of Industrial Society.

Humans have decimated millions of other species - very soon it will be the turn of Humans to get decimated.

But even decimation of humans will not save ecosystems - only a total wipe-out of humans will save ecosystems.

If a few million humans survive they will again try to build another Industrial Society because they have seen such a society.

Only human extinction will work.

When the human species appears again there must be no memory of Industrialization and consumerism left in the human brain.

It would be best if the human species never ever appears on the planet again.


This planet can only sustain societies that produce their own food.

This planet cannot sustain societies that do not produce their own food.

Everyone in this world is eating food.

But everyone in this world is not producing food.

Today 50% of world population is living in cities. This population is not producing food. A society that does not produce its own food creates unnecessary work to keep itself occupied. People would go crazy if this unnecessary work is not created. A city-based/ non-farming society is mostly engaged in production and selling of consumer goods and services. Work turns into over-work, extra work, destructive work.

When society produces its own food it destroys ecosystems for food, clothing, shelter.

When society does not produce its own food it destroys ecosystems for "consumer goods" in addition to food, clothing, shelter.

Cities existed before Industrial Revolution but their destructive impact was very little because they were not producing consumer goods that are being made today.

We can never save environment if we are destroying extra - We can never save environment if we destroy it for "consumer goods" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

It is impossible to save environment as long as cities exist.

It is impossible to save environment if we have societies that do not produce their own food.



Over-exploitation of ecosystems became possible only due to modern technology/ machines.

In the absence of modern technology/ machines it would be impossible for man to destroy all ecosystems.

If modern technology/ machines had not come into existence man would
have probably destroyed some ecosystems on land [forests] - and that
too at a much slower rate than that of the present Industrial Society.

It would have been impossible for man to destroy ecosystems in the sea/ oceans.

It would have been impossible for man to carry out largescale mining
activity and destroy ecosystems on the surface and deep inside the
earth.

It would have been impossible for man to poison the earth with thousands of toxic chemicals.

It would have been impossible for man to generate billions of tonnes of
solid, liquid and gaseous waste that has poisoned the air, water and
land - the entire planet.

It would have been impossible for man to generate billions of tonnes of
metal waste, plastic waste, eWaste, nuclear waste...... that has
poisoned the entire planet.

The Machine has killed all ecosystems.

It is impossible to save the remaining ecosystems as long as the machine exists.

The Machine will devour everything that remains on earth.

Machine is the killer.

Kill the machine.



The shameless, insane, abnormal and criminal human species
gets alarmed only when other species are about to go extinct  not before. And
even this late concern is fake - how could it ever be real.

The crime happens much before extinction of species. The tragedy happens much
before extinction of species.

This planet was made for millions of species - not for man alone.

The crime/ tragedy happened much earlier than extinction when man decimated all
other species.

The crime/ tragedy happened much earlier when the population of each species
dropped from millions to thousands and hundreds.

How would humans feel if the roles were reversed and the following happened.

All the animals of the world join hands to decimate the human species.

Humans are outraged , they cry out - killers, murderers, criminals, terrorists.

The animals say - "what are you complaining about?".

We are so compassionate - we did'nt kill all of you.

You should be grateful that we did'nt make you extinct.

There are 10 of you still alive on every continent.



Jobs or Environment?

Economy or Environment?

These are the questions that are being asked today.

This is insanity raised to the power of infinity.

Do we need to discuss, debate and argue for 100 years to know the answer?

Do we need to do research for 100 years to know the answer?

What would be the response of this genius society if professional killers said - you should not stop us from killing people - if you do that you are taking away our jobs.

Jobs are killing ecosystems, work is killing ecosystems, economy is killing ecosystems - work has turned into overwork, unnecessary work, extra work, destructive work.

Industrial Society is destroying necessary things [animals, trees, air, water, land] for making unnecessary things [consumer goods].

Without environment humans will not even exist.

Without environment millions of other species will not exist.

We are alive because of nature - we owe our very existence to nature.

But this insane, abnormal and criminal "Industrial Society" continues to choose jobs instead of environment - economy instead of environment.

Insanity raised to the power of infinity.



Out of millions of species the human species is the only species which is insane enough to believe that food comes from money.

Millions of other species have lived on earth for millions of years. Their food did not come from money.

Food does not come from money - food comes from nature - food grows because of nature - food exists because of fertile soil, water, air, sunlight.......

Industrial Society has killed, polluted, poisoned the very things that produce food.

You can load trillions of dollars into a rocket and send it to the moon - you will not be able to buy a single grain of food over there.

Money is paper, money is plastic - money is not food.

Chief Seattle of the Indian Tribe had warned :

"only after the last tree has been cut down, only after the last river has been poisoned, only after the last fish has been caught, only then will you realize that you cannot eat money"



When is this insane society going to understand that it is not just Industrial accidents that destroy ecosystems - all Industrial activity destroys ecosystems.

The Bhopal gas tragedy killed 20,000 people, crippled half a million people for life, killed thousands of animals and birds, killed/ polluted/ poisoned... the air, water and soil.

Union Carbide was making pesticides/ insecticides in its plant. These carcinogenic insecticides and pesticides are killing millions of people all over the world every year - directly or indirectly. These toxic insecticides and pesticides are poisoning millions of acres of soil every year, These toxic insecticides and pesticides are killing millions of animals and birds every year. These toxic insecticides and pesticides are poisoning the underground and above-ground water sources. These toxic insecticides and pesticides have poisoned the entire food chain leading to multiple organ failure, genetic defects, birth defects.

If the Bhopal Gas Tragedy had not happened the toxic insecticides and pesticides produced by Union Carbide would have still led to destruction of ecosystems, killing of humans, animals, birds, air, water and soil.


Recently there was an oil spill in the sea in US. The oil is killing marine life.

Oil kills ecosystems when it spills into the sea.

Oil kills ecosystems even when it does'nt spill into the sea.

If the oil had not spilled into the sea it would have been used to power ships that move around oceans - catching fish, killing marine life, torturing marine life moment by moment. At any given time there are 50,000 ships moving in the oceans.

If the oil had not spilled it would have been used to run millions of cars, other vehicles, aeroplanes - whose exhausts would release millions of tonnes of toxic gases into the atmosphere. That is not all - ecosystems are killed to manufacture millions of cars, trucks, ships and aeroplanes that run on oil.

If the oil had not spilled into the sea it would have been used to run millions of industries and factories - all of which kill ecosystems - animals, trees, air, water, land.


When we make consumer goods we kill Animals/ Trees, Air/ Water and Land - directly or indirectly.

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems - all Industrial Societies destroy ecosystems.

It hardly matters whether it is "Capitalist Industrial Society" - "Communist Industrial Society" - or "Socialist Industrial Society".

Industrial Society destroys ecosystems at every stage of its functioning - when consumer goods are produced - when consumer goods are used - when consumer goods are discarded/ recycled.

Raw material for industry is obtained by cutting up Forests. It is extracted by mining/ digging up the earth. It comes by destroying/ killing Trees, Animals and Land.

Industries/ Factories use Water. The water that comes out of Factories is contaminated with hundreds of toxic chemicals. Industry kills Water. What to speak of Rivers - entire Oceans have been polluted.

Industries burn millions of tonnes of fuel and when raw material is melted/ heated up, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into the atmosphere. Industry kills Air.

Industrial Society has covered millions of square miles of land with cement and concrete. Industry kills Land.

When consumer goods are discarded/ thrown away in landfills it again leads to destruction of ecosystems.

When consumer goods are recycled, hundreds of toxic chemicals are released into air, water and land.

Consumer goods are sold/ marketed through a network of millions of kilometers of rail / road network and shipping routes which causes destruction of all ecosystems that come in the way.

Industrial Society has generated billions of tonnes of hazardous solid, liquid and gaseous waste - billions of tonnes of metal waste, plastic
waste, eWaste, chemical waste, nuclear waste.


When an Industrial accident happens the focus of entire world shifts to it.

All environmentalists are outraged.

As if the environment was in good shape before the accident and will be in good shape after the accident.

The problem is not Industrial accident -the problem is not any particular Industrial accident - the problem is Industry itself.

Industrial accidents will continue to happen as long as Industry exists.

They will only get bigger and bigger.

Bigger the Industry bigger the Industrial accident.


Industry kills ecosystems when there is an Industrial accident.

Industry kills ecosystems even when there is no Industrial accident.

All Industrial activity is an accident.

All Industrial activity destroys ecosystems.

All Industrial activity kills animals, trees, air, water, land.

All Industrial activity leads to environmental crisis, environmental disaster, environmental catastrophe.

It is impossible to save ecosystems as long as industry exists.




Technology has destroyed ecosystems.

But the Techno-Worshippers of this insane Industrial Society want still more technology, new technology, better technology, advanced technology - they claim that technology will save the ecosystems.

Two thousand years ago the air was clean - it was not contaminated with billions of tonnes of toxic Industrial gases and particulate matter.

Which technology made the air clean? - American?....British?....German?....Japanese?

Two thousand years ago the rivers and oceans were clean - they were not contaminated with billions of tonnes of toxic Industrial waste.

Which technology made the water clean? - American?....British?....German?....Japanese?

Two thousand years ago the planet was full of forests - millions of species thrived - their population was hundreds and thousands of times greater than what it is now.

Which technology made this possible? - American?....British?....German?....Japanese?

Two thousand years ago the oceans were full of fish and other marine species.

Which technology made this possible? - American?....British?....German?....Japanese?

Two thousand years ago billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous waste did not exist on this planet.

Which technology made this possible? - American?....British?....German?....Japanese?

Two thousand years ago billions of tonnes of metal waste, plastic waste, chemical waste, eWaste, nuclear waste did not exist on this planet.

Which technology made this possible? - American?....British?....German?....Japanese?


Technology does not save ecosystems - it is the absence of technology that saves ecosystems.

Science, technology and industrialization lead to over-exploitation of ecosystems.

Technology is not the saviour of ecosystems - technology is the destroyer of ecosystems.


sushil_yadav
*Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*

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## MarkBastable

Come again?

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## osho

I want to present per-industrial human society since some of the things go unspoken or prose becomes not enough replete with meaning: 

Imagine we live in our primitive character 
You have no cloth on your body or on your children's 
You have no storage 
The urge that arise currently surges you to look for commodities 

Be it food, water or sex 
Sin is undefined 
God is not invented yet

Family is not integrated 
Everything is possible 
Yet love is as ancient as life 
Urge is a tremor that arose with the flow of water 

There were the satisfier and the satisfied 

Called male and female in your modern dictionary

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## sushil_yadav

> Come again?



For the last 50 years Intellectuals have been debating what is good for Environment......Capitalist Industrial Society, Communist Industrial Society or Socialist Industrial Society?

This is like debating what is good for people.....Capitalist Poison, Communist Poison or Socialist Poison.

Poison kills people.....it does'nt matter who made it ......Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

Industrial Activity kills ecosystems.....It does'nt matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

All Industrial Activity destroys environment......Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Transportation Industry, Construction Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Millions of kilometers of Rail & Road network and Shipping Lanes…..they all destroy environment….. It does'nt matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

American Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems…..Russian Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems……Chinese Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems…….Indian Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems……Every Industrial Society destroys ecosystems…… It does'nt matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

In just 250 years Industrial Society has destroyed 75 - 90% of Forests, Wild Animals and Fish Population......Population of Lions, Tigers and Elephants is down to 2 - 5% of what it was 100 years ago......Population of Large Fish in Oceans is down to 10% of what it was 100 years ago.....Industrial Society has poisoned the entire planet with Trillions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste, Nuclear Waste.....It has killed Trillions of Animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses and billions of acres of Fertile Soil with Cement And Concrete.

Animals did not destroy Environment for millions of years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Hunter Gatherer Society did not destroy Environment for a million years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Agrarian Society caused very limited destruction of environment over 10,000 years[compared to Industrial Society].......because their activity was limited to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Society has destroyed almost all Ecosystems in just 250 years......because it is destroying environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods must stop immediately.......Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter......And even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.

*Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*

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## BienvenuJDC

> All Industrial Activity destroys environment......
> 
> American Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems..Russian Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystemsChinese Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems.Indian Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystemsEvery Industrial Society destroys ecosystems It does'nt matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.
> 
> In just 250 years Industrial Society has destroyed 75 - 90% of Forests, Wild Animals and Fish Population......


Your article is full of misinformation. Maybe I should just go as far as saying that it is Deceitful Propaganda. Bluntly saying...LIES.

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## Darcy88

> Your article is full of misinformation. Maybe I should just go as far as saying that it is Deceitful Propaganda. Bluntly saying...LIES.


Actually his main premise is correct. Industrialization destroys ecosystems. It won't be long before the world's fish stocks reach a state of collapse. I drive 20 minutes in any direction out of town and the whole vast area looks like the scene of an asteroid collision. Much of Northern Alberta looks like the surface of the moon, like Mordor in Lord of the Rings, and by the time the Canadian tar-sands are fully developed the affected area will be larger than the state of Florida. Atlantic cod has been fished out, a once seemingly infinite resource. The destruction of the Amazon has become trite to mention but the devastation there is great and ghastly. The examples go endlessly on.

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## sushil_yadav

> Actually his main premise is correct. Industrialization destroys ecosystems. It won't be long before the world's fish stocks reach a state of collapse. I drive 20 minutes in any direction out of town and the whole vast area looks like the scene of an asteroid collision. Much of Northern Alberta looks like the surface of the moon, like Mordor in Lord of the Rings, and by the time the Canadian tar-sands are fully developed the affected area will be larger than the state of Florida. Atlantic cod has been fished out, a once seemingly infinite resource. The destruction of the Amazon has become trite to mention but the devastation there is great and ghastly. The examples go endlessly on.


Thanks for your views Darcy88.

There is only one cause of environmental destruction......Industrialization.

Overpopulation and Overconsumerism are only consequences/ by-products of Industrialization.

Overconsumerism is quite obviously a consequence of Industrialization..... Industrial consumer goods and services would not exist without Industrial Activity.

Overpopulation is also a by-product of Industrialization. The entire world was overbreeding until the middle years of 20th century.....even Western Countries had 5 - 12 children per family[and even more].....and yet population of the world remained low before industrialization because of high death rate, lower life span and shortage of food and water. It was only 1 billion in 1800 AD. India and China have large populations today because they started with larger populations thousands of years ago, since ancient civilizations thrived in these regions. What was the population of Europe/ America/ West 2000 years ago????......Was it comparable to eastern population of India and China????

Industrialization is the cause of overpopulation and overconsumerism.

Moreover, Environment has been destroyed by Industrialization/ Consumerism.Not by Population/ Overpopulation.

Total World Population has not increased It has decreasedIn fact total world population has been decimated.

When we talk of population we should take into account population of all animal species, not just human population.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of Animal SpeciesIncrease in human population has coincided with decrease/ decimation of millions of animal species. The total burden of population on this planet has not increased..It has decreased.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of other species.....but there was a time when the combined population of other animal species was much greater than present human population.....and we don't even need to include smaller animals in this count.....the combined population of big animals alone whose size and weight was equivalent to or greater than man was much greater than current human population of 7 billion.

The amount of food this animal population was eating was much greater than the food consumed by humans today.......Yet millions of animal species did not destroy environment and lived sustainably on earth for millions of years......because they destroyed environment only for food and not for thousands of consumer goods and services.

If animals had started a consumerist "Industrial Society" millions of years ago they would have destroyed all ecosystems millions of years ago.

The entire world has been trying to control human population for 50 years and these efforts should / will continue in future.....so where is the problem with population?????

What is the cause of human overpopulation??????......It is Industrialization......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion today ........In the absence of Industrialization world population would only be a small fraction of 7 billion today.

It is not population that destroys environment......It is lifestyle.......The combined population of millions of animal species was much greater than present human population.......and yet they did not destroy environment for millions of years because they destroyed environment only for Food.......not for Thousands of Consumer Goods.

The cause of Environmental Destruction is Industrialization / Consumerism.........Not population / overpopulation.

A Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would not destroy environment [And a Hunter_Gatherer Society would never reach a population of 7 billion]

An Agrarian Society of 7 billion would cause much lesser environmental destruction than an Industrial Society of 7 billion [And an Agrarian Society would never reach a population of 7 billion]

Industrialization is the cause of Human Overpopulation and Overconsumerism

It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to complain about overpopulation when it itself is the cause of overpopulation......It is so ridiculous of Industrial Society to make attempts to control population while promoting Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP exponentially.

Height of Insanity!

Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods must stop immediately.......Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter.

*Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*

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## Darcy88

Overpopulation is not the result only of industrialization but of advances in medicine and sanitation too. 

I'm with you on the call for a new primitivism, but you must keep in mind that you can trace the cause of our civilization's ills a step further beyond industrialization. The true culprit is humanity itself, human nature, our ever unsatiated appetite which was worsened though not born with the advent of industrialization.

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## JuniperWoolf

> Much of Northern Alberta looks like the surface of the moon, like Mordor in Lord of the Rings, and by the time the Canadian tar-sands are fully developed the affected area will be larger than the state of Florida.


Haha, it _does_ look like Mordor:



And it stretches for miiiiiles:



That's money they're pulling out of the ground, though. If there were ever to be an environmental law written to shut down oil sands operations, my kinsmen would likely drink themselves to death just like last time when the coal mines shut down.

My friend Les just said this a second ago so I'm putting it here:




> Fun fact: did you know the oil sands employs more people and has 'fewer Co2 emmisions' than the Ontario auto making plants? But the entire worldwide oil industry is a gross immoral thing. Fighting the oil demands would be the way to go, don't just fall into the trendy scapegoating of the oilsands while still driving everywhere despite the fact your city has a descent public transportation system. Also, the alternative for oil right now is the middle east, mainly saudi arabia which is an *** backwards country under a monarchy that still holds public executions.


Then again, we have a personal interest in the oil sands.

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## cafolini

#1 and #2 are impossible to discuss. I have seldom seen more insanity in a single place. Good posts about madness.

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## Darcy88

> Haha, it _does_ look like Mordor:
> 
> 
> 
> And it stretches for miiiiiles:
> 
> 
> 
> That's money they're pulling out of the ground, though. If there were ever to be an environmental law written to shut down oil sands operations, my kinsmen would likely drink themselves to death just like last time when the coal mines shut down.
> ...


If all the money that went into oil were suddenly spent on the development of alternative energy sources there'd be no problem. I understand the whole focus on jobs, after all, one's family must eat, but if you look at what every credible scientist says is coming, the concern for jobs really becomes insignificant. Its way too politicized to get into here, but some of the predictions are downright apocalyptic. The Pentagon says the environment will become the single greatest threat to America's national security. That's the freaking Pentagon! 

On aesthetic reasons alone I'd scale the oil-sands back. And its not just Alberta that's sold its soul. British Columbia is the natural gas fracking leader of the world.

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## JuniperWoolf

> If all the money that went into oil were suddenly spent on the development of alternative energy sources there'd be no problem.


That's unrealistic though. I don't think there will be much of a change until there are some more urgent negative effects felt, and I think that the chances run high that we'll run out of oil before the environment takes too hard a hit (but that will still put humans at risk if we haven't found an alternative source of energy by then). Envorinmental doomsday predictions have really started to seem somewhat misguided to me, especially since I started seriously studying ecology. People often think that nature is a weak system that needs human protection, but that's not true. It's only our own survival and progress that would realistically justify searching for more efficient energy sources, and in that sense it _is_ justified. We as a species would have a lot more time, energy and resources to accomplish great things if we were able to easily and safely pull usable energy from the air, as Tesla proposed.

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## cafolini

> That's unrealistic though. I don't think there will be much of a change until there are some more urgent negative effects felt, and I think that the chances run high that we'll run out of oil before the environment takes too hard a hit (but that will still put humans at risk if we haven't found an alternative source of energy by then). Envorinmental doomsday predictions have really started to seem somewhat misguided to me, especially since I started seriously studying ecology. People often think that nature is a weak system that needs human protection, but that's not true. It's only our own survival and progress that would realistically justify searching for more efficient energy sources, and in that sense it _is_ justified. We as a species would have a lot more time, energy and resources to accomplish great things if we were able to easily and safely pull usable energy from the air, as Tesla proposed.


In that sense, Tesla is outdated. But he did leave us the frequency transformers and some other great stuf. Tesla was one of the greatest scientists that ever lived.
During the WW Marconi had the contracts and the ability to take over Tesla's work and the fascistic Italians to later (WWII) claim discoveries they never made.

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## Darcy88

> That's unrealistic though. I don't think there will be much of a change until there are some more urgent negative effects felt, and I think that the chances run high that we'll run out of oil before the environment takes too hard a hit (but that will still put humans at risk if we haven't found an alternative source of energy by then). Envorinmental doomsday predictions have really started to seem somewhat misguided to me, especially since I started seriously studying ecology. People often think that nature is a weak system that needs human protection, but that's not true. It's only our own survival and progress that would realistically justify searching for more efficient energy sources, and in that sense it _is_ justified. We as a species would have a lot more time, energy and resources to accomplish great things if we were able to easily and safely pull usable energy from the air, as Tesla proposed.


We have enough natural gas underground to keep us going for a very long time, America included. A 3 degree rise in overall world temperature is all that's needed for major changes to take place and our reaching that mark is all but inevitable. 

Your post brings to mind a classic bit by Carlin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNobFi3Q-9Y

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## JuniperWoolf

> 3 degree rise in overall world temperature is all that's needed for major changes to take place and our reaching that mark is all but inevitable.


I'm not worried about it. 




> Your post brings to mind a classic bit by Carlin:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNobFi3Q-9Y


Haha, I've never seen that before. I usually try to avoid the Carlin hype, I'm more of a Stanhope kind of person, but he really did have a great mind. He really knew his sh*t, I like this version (it was in the "related videos" column) where he says that the earth is a self-regulating system and describes the conditions under which life was previously extinguished and then re-built. 

Watching those videos reminded me of how much people who make reference to "saving the planet" or who call themselves "green" are really starting to piss me off, I was drowned in that whole culture in university (and I _would_ call it a culture - it really seems more about people defining themselves, and finding other people to identify with, than actual progression). Someone could have objectively described me as an "environmentalist" when I was 16-19ish, but now it just seems like one big ineffectual global-wide self satisfied circle jerk, with just a dash of fear mongering for profit. Humans are just a species, our job is just to exist in this world and continue to exist. There are feedback loops in nature which guarantee that our own ability to survive and reduce our own suffering means that we must live in harmony with our environment, and if we don't then _we_ die and nature as a system continues. 

"If nature were but to shrug, or to raise an eyebrow, then we should all be gone."
-Alan Moore

Saving ourselves is a worthy enough motivation without both flattering _and_ punishing ourselves by imagining that we not only can, but also have a responsibility to, save every _other_ species (well, the cute ones at least), Humans have a lot of potential and could really go far.

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## sushil_yadav

Environment has been destroyed primarily by Urban Population......Environment has been destroyed by population that does not produce food.

This planet can only sustain a society in which [almost] the entire population is engaged in producing food......It cannot sustain a society where 50% of world population produces food for 100% of population .......and the remaining 50% is engaged in production and marketing of Consumer Goods and Services.

In Industrial Society a fraction of population produces Food for entire population......The rest of the population [which means most of the people living in Cities and Urban Areas] creates unnecessary work to keep itself occupied.....which leads to Extra destruction of environment......which makes sustainability an impossibility.

*One profession means destruction of environment for one thing.......Thousands of professions means destruction of environment for thousands of things.*

Animals did not destroy Environment for millions of years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Hunter Gatherer Society did not destroy Environment for a million years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Agrarian Society caused very limited destruction of environment over 10,000 years [compared to Industrial Society].......because their activity was limited to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Society has destroyed almost all Environment in just 250 years......because it is destroying environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

*The list of unnecessary and destructive work in Industrial Society includes......Manufacturing and Marketing of thousands of "Consumer Goods" and Services, Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex, All kinds of unnecessary Research .....and lots of other work.*

Out of the population that does not produce Food, the maximum number of people - a few billion people are engaged in Production and Marketing of "Consumer Goods" and Services. Industrial Activity for production of "consumer goods" and services is the biggest destroyer of environment.

Millions of people are working in Sports Industry......Environment is destroyed to manufacture millions of tonnes of Sports Equipment......Millions of Trees have been cut down and billions of acres of fertile soil has been killed with Cement & Concrete to build millions of Stadiums, Golf Courses and other sports facilities.

Millions of people are working in Tourism Industry......Tourism is all about Travelling which promotes Transportation Industry that destroys Environment......Millions of kilometers of Road and Rail network cutting through Forests destroying Trees and Wildlife.....Millions of kilometers of Shipping Lanes torturing and killing Fish.....Millions of kilometers of Air Routes killing the Air with millions of tonnes of exhaust gases.

Millions of people are working in Entertainment Industry........Environment has been destroyed to construct millions of Buildings that are used for entertainment and to produce millions of tonnes of Electronic Equipment that provides entertainment.

Millions of people are working for "Military Industrial Complex" producing and selling billions of tonnes of weapons all over the world...... Environment is destroyed when weapons are produced and when they are used.

Millions of City People are engaged in other unnecessary work that destroys even more environment.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.

Environment has been destroyed by Energy Generation Industry, Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road network, Millions of kilometers of Air Routes and Shipping Lanes.

Industrial Activity has destroyed Forests, Rivers and Oceans....It has produced Trillions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste, Nuclear Waste......It has killed billions of acres of fertile soil with cement and concrete.

Industrial Society has destroyed 75 - 90% of Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years.

Industrial Activity for production of Consumer Goods and Services must stop immediately.........Human work must be limited to Food, Clothing and Shelter.

sushil_yadav
*Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*

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## BookBeauty

Much of this reminds me of what the Zeitgeist movies were saying, and the various ideas that the Venus Project has been volleying, about a resource-based economy, or trying to make our economy sustainable, and choosing better solutions for the environment. 

When we have geothermal, solar, wind and tidal power, and we're simply not utilizing it because it's not as profitable as oil, we have a problem. Industry was essential to progress, but there's a lot of rumours about peak oil, and the eventual and inevitable decline of oil.

Everything's about production. The onwards goal of : Go-Go-Going. But, here's the catch.. They have to continue making goods, with the cheapest available materials, which makes the goods obsolete. They're simply not made to last, or to be good quality. You can't trust skin cream because it's actually designed to make you _think_ you've got softer skin, drying it out in the process, making it essential to buy more. It's all about buying, and if we're not buying and selling, the economy is not functioning properly. This continual economic growth is not something that we can keep up with for an infinite amount of time.

Basically, our system is broken and people are ignoring it, sitting pretty watching television and going to 8-hour-a-day jobs they hate, which cause them to be antipathic to any issues that the world might have. 

The Venus Project has a plan, whereas the Zeitgeist movement is trying to get people together to find various plans, or solutions.

But, what everyone seems to agree with is that the system's not going to change until either it's just too late, or it's a hair's breadth away from being too late.

The best thing to do to take action as an individual, I think, is possibly the transitional towns and cities that have begun circulating their own currency, which doesn't effect the global economy. In addition, most goods then are bought locally, and there is less issue with environmental problems.

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## sushil_yadav

*BookBeauty,*

I want to thank you for your post in which you have expressed concern about environmental destruction and consumerism......and for giving information about the Zeitgeist movement and Venus Project. I have made some more additions to my article which I am posting here.

...........

Industrial Society is a lunatic society that is trying to save environment not by stopping Industrial Activity but by changing the technology.

Bring this technology, Bring that technology..........Bring this technology, Bring that technology.

A man is shooting someone with a gun........Some people are trying to save the victim.......They plead with the man asking him to save the victim by stopping the shooting.

The man says.....Don't worry......I will save him by changing technology......He replaces the old gun with a new one ........And continues to shoot.

.
.

Environment has been destroyed by Industrial Activity........Trying to save environment without stopping Industrial Activity is like ......

Trying to save a victim of shooting by shooting him even more.

Trying to save a victim of stabbing by stabbing him even more.

Trying to save a victim of poisoning by giving him even more poison.

Height of Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality.......You cannot save environment by destroying more of it.

Industrial Society has been destroying Extra environment for 250 years........It has been destroying environment for "thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

You cannot save a person after killing him.......You cannot save environment after it has been killed by Industrial Activity.

The entire Industrial Society deserves the Nobel Prize for Lunacy for pretending that environment is getting saved when the reality is that Industrial Society has been destroying extra environment after industrialization and has destroyed so much extra environment in 250 years that there is hardly any environment left to save.

.
.

There is only one cause of environmental destruction.......Industrialization.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth.......The biggest act of killing, murder and terrorism.

A Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food.

An Agrarian Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment [compared to an Industrial Society of 7 billion]...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Society of 7 billion has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years after industrialization because it destroyed environment for "Thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

A Hunter_Gatherer Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion.

An Agrarian Society would have never reached a population of 7 billion.

World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been only a small fraction of 7 billion today.

.
.

For the last 50 years Intellectuals have been debating what is good for Environment......Capitalist Industrial Society, Communist Industrial Society or Socialist Industrial Society?

This is like debating what is good for people.....Capitalist Poison, Communist Poison or Socialist Poison.

Poison kills people.....it doesn't matter who made it ......Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

Industrial Activity kills ecosystems.....It doesn't matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

All Industrial Activity destroys environment......Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Transportation Industry, Construction Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Millions of kilometers of Rail & Road network, Air Routes and Shipping Lanes..they all destroy environment.. It doesn't matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

American Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems..Russian Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystemsChinese Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystems.Indian Industrial Activity has destroyed ecosystemsEvery Industrial Society destroys ecosystems It does'nt matter which system runs it.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism.

In just 250 years Industrial Society has destroyed 75 - 90% of Biodiversity and Ecosystems......Forests, Wild Animals and Fish Population......Population of Lions, Tigers and Elephants is down to 2 - 5% of what it was 100 years ago......Population of Large Fish in Oceans is down to 10% of what it was 100 years ago.....Industrial Society has poisoned the entire planet with Trillions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste, Nuclear Waste.....It has killed Trillions of Animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses and billions of acres of Fertile Soil with Cement, Concrete and Asphalt.

.
.

Discussion cannot save environment........Money cannot save environment......Technology cannot save environment......Environmental Organizations cannot save environment.......Activism cannot save environment.

Animal Species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment through discussion......They did not even have a language for discussing environmental issues.

Animal species and Hunter_Gatherer Society did not save environment with money ........They had no money.

Animal species, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society did not save environment with modern technology........They had no modern technology......It was absence of modern technology that saved environment in pre-industrial societies........Over-exploitation of ecosystems became possible only because of Industrial Machines.

Animal species, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society did not save environment with the help of Environmental Organizations or Activism........They had no environmental organizations.

Animal Species did not destroy environment for millions of years.......Hunter Gatherer Society destroyed very little environment during a million years of existence......Agrarian Society destroyed very little environment [compared to Industrial Society] over a period of 10,000 years.

There is only one way to save environment.......Destroy less......Minimize the list of things that are destroying environment.

.
.

Promoters of Growth rate, Economy Rate and GDP are the biggest terrorists on earth.......Millions of times bigger terrorists than Taliban and Al Qaeda.

Our society has placed a bounty of millions of dollars on the heads of Taliban and Al Qaeda

No bounty on the heads of people who promoted Industrialization, Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP that has led to destruction of most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems on earth???

It was not Taliban or Al Qaeda that produced Trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste that has contaminated and poisoned the entire planet......It was Industrial Society.

It was not Taliban or Al Qaeda that decimated millions of animal and plant species......It was Industrial Society.

It was not Taliban or Al Qaeda that killed billions of acres of fertile soil with cement, concrete and asphalt......It was Industrial Society.

It was not Taliban or Al Qaeda that decimated fish in the oceans......It was Industrial Fishing.

It was not Taliban or Al Qaeda that killed millions of people in wars.......It was Military Industrial Complex.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth.

For millions of years before industrialization the list of things that destroyed environment never exceeded food, clothing and shelter.......Animals destroyed environment for food......Hunter_Gatherer Society destroyed environment for food......Agrarian Society destroyed environment for food, clothing and shelter.

Development is Destruction........Development is Destruction.

"Growth Rate" - "Economy Rate" - "GDP"
These are figures of "Ecocide".
These are figures of "Crimes against Nature".
These are figures of "Destruction of Ecosystems".
These are figures of "Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality".

Promoters of Growth Rate, Economy Rate & GDP are the biggest Killers, Murderers & Terrorists on earth.

.
.

Environment has been destroyed by Cities.......Environment has been destroyed by Urban Dwellers.........City People are doing extra work which has led to exponential "extra destruction of environment".......... Urban Dwellers are the destroyers of Forests, Villages, Tribal Land, Rivers, Oceans and Atmosphere.

For millions of years "searching for food" / producing food were the primary activities of animal species, hunter_gatherer society and agrarian society.........and that is why they sustained for millions of years because they destroyed very little environment compared to Industrial Society.......For millions of years the list of things that destroyed environment never exceeded food, clothing and shelter.

In Industrial Society 50% of world population is growing food for 100% of population and the remaining 50% living in cities is primarily engaged in production and marketing of "thousands of consumer goods and services".

It is impossible to save environment as long as Urban Population exists in this world.

It is impossible to save environment as long as Urban Population is engaged in production and marketing of consumer goods and services.

It is impossible to save environment as long as Urban Population is promoting Industrial Activity.

Industrial Activity is directly proportional to percentage of Urban Population.

Consumerism is directly proportional to percentage of Urban Population.

Destruction of environment is directly proportional to percentage of Urban Population.

Most of the people who do not produce food are engaged in production and marketing of consumer goods and services.

Most of the urban population is engaged in production and marketing of consumer goods and services.

In America 90 - 95% of population is urban......In Europe 80  90% of population is urban......this is why consumerism is so rampant in US and West.

World wide the percentage of urban population is about 50%.......If the entire world is made communist or socialist it is not going to stop/ reduce consumerism as long as the percentage of urban population remains the same.

As long as Urban Population exists all Industrial Activities will continue to exist and expand........ Energy Generation Industry, Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Oil Drilling Industry, Oil Refining Industry, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Network, Millions of kilometers of Air Routes and Shipping Lanes.....all these Industrial Activities will continue to exist and expand.

This planet cannot sustain a society that does not produce its own food.

This planet cannot sustain Urban population.

Environment has been destroyed primarily by Urban Population......Environment has been destroyed primarily by population that does not produce food.

This planet can only sustain a society in which [almost] the entire population is engaged in producing food.

One profession means destruction of environment for one thing.......Thousands of professions means destruction of environment for thousands of things.

Animals did not destroy Environment for millions of years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Hunter Gatherer Society did not destroy Environment for a million years.......because their activity was limited to searching for food.

Agrarian Society caused very limited destruction of environment over 10,000 years [compared to Industrial Society].......because their activity was limited to food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Society has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years......because it has destroyed environment for "thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter".

The list of unnecessary and destructive work in Industrial Society includes......Manufacturing and Marketing of thousands of "Consumer Goods" and Services, Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex, All kinds of unnecessary Research .....and lots of other work.

Out of the population that does not produce Food, the maximum number of people - a few billion people are engaged in Production and Marketing of "Consumer Goods" and Services. Industrial Activity for production of "consumer goods" and services is the biggest destroyer of environment.

Millions of people are working in Sports Industry......Environment is destroyed to manufacture millions of tonnes of Sports Equipment......Millions of Trees have been cut down and billions of acres of fertile soil has been killed with Cement & Concrete to build millions of Stadiums.

Millions of people are working in Tourism Industry......Tourism is all about Travelling which promotes Transportation Industry that destroys Environment......Millions of kilometers of Road and Rail network cutting through Forests destroying Trees and Wildlife.....Millions of kilometers of Shipping Lanes torturing and killing Fish.....Millions of kilometers of Air Routes killing the Air with millions of tonnes of exhaust gases.

Millions of people are working in Entertainment Industry........Environment has been destroyed to construct millions of Buildings that are used for entertainment and to produce millions of tonnes of Electronic Equipment that provides entertainment.

Millions of people are working for "Military Industrial Complex" producing and selling billions of tonnes of weapons all over the world...... Environment is destroyed when weapons are produced and when they are used.

Millions of City People are engaged in other unnecessary work that destroys even more environment.

Food, clothing and shelter......these are the maximum number of things this planet can provide to humans.

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been only a small fraction of 7 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated or minimized.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.

*
Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*

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## cafolini

I often wondered who was the freak advising Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban.

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## sushil_yadav

> I often wondered who was the freak advising Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban.


I also used to often wonder who was missing from the group of lunatics that advised George Bush and "Coalition of the Willing".

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## cafolini

> I also used to often wonder who was missing from the group of lunatics that advised George Bush and "Coalition of the Willing".


I think it was you all the way. They figured out your insane proposals and idiotic doings.

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## sushil_yadav

You are wrong genius.

I advised the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

You advised George Bush and "Coalition of the Willing".

I am glad I did not advise George Bush and Company.......The "Coalition of the Stupid".

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## cafolini

> You are wrong genius.
> 
> I advised the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
> 
> You advised George Bush and "Coalition of the Willing".
> 
> I am glad I did not advise George Bush and Company.......The "Coalition of the Stupid".


You'll submit to freedom, or evaporate, vice squad. Case closed.

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## Paulclem

> *BookBeauty,*
> 
> 
> A Hunter_Gatherer Society of 7 billion would have destroyed very little environment...... because it would have destroyed environment only for food.
> 
> [/B]


I don't think this is true. Hunter gatherers were nomads because they ate the food in one area and had to move to the next area with a stock of ready food. How would 7 billion hunter gatherers co-ordinate that?

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## Paulclem

> *BookBeauty,*
> 
> We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.
> 
> *
> Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*


This is very short sighted. There is a lot of movement of goods and services in and between countries, which involves transport, which requires fuel...etc

We can't go back to the model you suggest - there are too many people for that. 

There are other things thaty can be done though - remove the need, and cultural pressure for a large family, for example. Your country could do something about that. 

The Pope must not maintain a prohibition of contraception - though it looks as though their position is softening. 

Technology has brought us to this place - in industry and agriculture, and more work needs to be done on efficient food production.

Unstable governments need a political settlement in order to develop and eventually contribute. 

Alternative energy needs to be developed and promoted. 

Regression won't work.

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## sushil_yadav

> There are other things that can be done though - remove the need, and cultural pressure for a large family, for example. Your country could do something about that. 
> 
> The Pope must not maintain a prohibition of contraception - though it looks as though their position is softening.


Industrial Society blaming overpopulation for global crisis is like America blaming Taliban and Al Qaeda for violence and terrorism.

Taliban and Al Qaeda were creations of America / West which provided weapons and money to them for years and years when they were fighting against Russia.

Overpopulation is a creation of industrialization........World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been only a small fraction of 7 billion today.

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## osho

I hate industrialization in fact though I never can be out of the fetters of industrialization. The clothes I wear, the kind of foods, drink I take, the transportation- means I use to travel from place, the books I love to read, the movies I choose to see, the songs I listen every day and the Internet that has enabled me to talk to you across a thousand miles have to do with industrialization. I will be phony if I make the maximum of it and abhor it blatantly. The comforts of my home, the gadgets I bedeck my house with the best obtainable furnishings has to do with somebody's industry o invention. I take everything for granted as if I have claim over them by birth, inherently, naturally the way I feel I must have the freedom to breathe in air ( alas today we have no freedom to breathe in fresh air) but there are so many individuals, institutions, dedicated scientists and technologists contributing to make available all we easily are enjoying in this world. 

Let us think coolly for a while. We have been too greedy; We have emptied the seas of their sea animals, the planet of their rare species, the air of some very beautiful aerial beings, birds and carbonized the earth's surface. Deforestation is on the go destroying millions of natural habitations. Our urbanization is an anti-natural campaign leading to desertification of the earth's surface. Even our bucolic communities are engaged in clearing forests, destroying floras and faunas for their settlements. 

In fact we are disfiguring the Mother Earth shamelessly, and we are ruining her and in the end we will be ruining ourselves when we will have only stretches of tarred roads full of ashes behind and ahead of us with few lives there. We are greedy beings, and our world of consumptions is ugly and we are like deadly dragons that swallow up everything that comes its way and ..

soon there will be so many black holes  and we will be swallowedby our beloved industries

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## Paulclem

> Industrial Society blaming overpopulation for global crisis is like America blaming Taliban and Al Qaeda for violence and terrorism.
> 
> Taliban and Al Qaeda were creations of America / West which provided weapons and money to them for years and years when they were fighting against Russia.
> 
> Overpopulation is a creation of industrialization........World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been only a small fraction of 7 billion today.


I didn't say that industrial society is blaming overpopulation. It is just a fact that we have these two together. You are correct in saying that industrialisation has increased world population by virtue of better conditions, medicine, agriculture etc. It is what we have to deal with now. 6 billion people are not going to disappear. They have to be accommodated. 

I don't think the solution lies in the past, as that time dealt with the population as it is. We have to use our improving tech to improve the situation. 

So India has 1 billion people contributing to the world population, and is rapidly becoming industrialised. Is it that you see this as a bad thing in your own country and assume that it is the same everywhere else? Also, what would you suggest India do about your population growth? I'm not criticising your country. I'd like to hear your ideas.

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## sushil_yadav

The entire world has been making efforts to control / check population growth for the last 30 - 40 years........these efforts should / will continue in future.......so there is no problem with population.

The two things that have destroyed environment are overconsumerism and overpopulation [both of which are by-products of industrialization]. 

This world has been trying to control population while increasing consumerism exponentially.......this is very ridiculous.

Both have to be controlled.

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## sushil_yadav

Story of Pseudo Environmentalism in Industrial Society.

A Serial Killer with endless supply of ammunition goes on the rampage in the city.....The Police are informed.....They arrive on the scene.....They do not try to stop or capture the shooter.....They do not try to kill or incapacitate the shooter.....They allow him to continue shooting......They give him full liberty to move around all over the city.

The Police focus on the victims of shooting.....They take them to Hospitals and try to save them with the help of best Technology / Health Care.....The Government sets up thousands of Organizations to do research on how the Whites can be saved, How the Blacks can be saved, How the Asians can be saved, How the Young can be saved, How the Elderly can be saved.....The Government gives Billions of Dollars of Grant to "Think Tanks" and NGO's to find out how the victims can be saved.....People of the city engage in Billions of pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument to find a solution to the problem.

This is not the story of the Mass Shooter.....This is the story of Environmentalism in Industrial Society.

Environment is being destroyed by Industrial Activity........Environmental Activists and Organizations are trying to save environment without stopping Industrial Activity

One group is trying to save Forests......The second group is trying to save Rivers......The third group is trying to save Oceans......The fourth group is trying to make the Air clean......The fifth group is trying to save Tigers and Elephants......The sixth group is trying to save Whales and Dolphins.

Height of Insanity and Abnormality.

People who are trying to save environment in Industrial Society without stopping all Industrial Activity deserve the Nobel Prize for Lunacy.

Why don't people realize the futility and absurdity of their efforts......It is impossible to save animals, trees, air, water and land without stopping all Industrial Activity.

What is the point in saving a few Dogs, Cats, Whales, Tigers and Elephants when Industrial Society is killing billions of animals in Industrial Slaughter Houses and billions of Wild Animals in Forests by destroying Forests with Industrial Activities like Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks and ever expanding Towns and Cities.......Industrial Society is also killing billions of fish in the oceans with Industrial Fishing and through discharge of billions of tonnes of Industrial Waste into oceans which has made them poisonous, acidic, warmer and created oxygen-deprived dead zones in the oceans.

It is impossible to save Air, water and Land without stopping all Industrial Activity because Industrial Activity is killing them with trillions of tonnes of Metal waste, Plastic waste, Gaseous waste, Chemical waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.......Industrial Activity produces trillions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Waste and there are only three places on earth where all this waste can go....Air, water and Soil.....There is no fourth place on earth where this waste can go...... It is impossible for Rivers, Oceans, Atmosphere and Soil to be clean in Industrial Society.

This planet can only sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or an Agrarian Society......Not an Industrial Society.

All Environmentalism is Pseudo-Environmentalism in Industrial Society.......It is impossible to save environment in an Industrial Society.

People who pretend they are saving environment in Industrial Society are even more insane, abnormal and criminal than people who are destroying the environment.

It is impossible to save environment in Industrial Society because Industrialization itself is the cause of environmental destruction.........In a non-industrial society environmentalism was not even needed.......In the absence of Industrial Activity environment got saved automatically because only limited destruction of environment was possible without Industrial Machines.
.
.

Environment has been destroyed by Industrial Activity........Trying to save environment without stopping Industrial Activity is like ..

Trying to save a victim of shooting by shooting him even more.

Trying to save a victim of stabbing by stabbing him even more.

Trying to save a victim of poisoning by giving him even more poison.

Height of Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality.......You cannot save environment by destroying more of it.

Industrial Society has been destroying Extra environment for 250 years........It has been destroying environment for "thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

You cannot save a person after killing him.......You cannot save environment after it has been killed by Industrial Activity.

The entire Industrial Society deserves the Nobel Prize for Lunacy for pretending that environment is getting saved when the reality is that Industrial Society has been destroying extra environment after industrialization and has destroyed so much extra environment in 250 years that there is hardly any environment left to save.

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## cafolini

> Story of Pseudo Environmentalism in Industrial Society.
> 
> A Serial Killer with endless supply of ammunition goes on the rampage in the city.....The Police are informed.....They arrive on the scene.....They do not try to stop or capture the shooter.....They do not try to kill or incapacitate the shooter.....They allow him to continue shooting......They give him full liberty to move around all over the city.
> 
> The Police focus on the victims of shooting.....They take them to Hospitals and try to save them with the help of best Technology / Health Care.....The Government sets up thousands of Organizations to do research on how the Whites can be saved, How the Blacks can be saved, How the Asians can be saved, How the Young can be saved, How the Elderly can be saved.....The Government gives Billions of Dollars of Grant to "Think Tanks" and NGO's to find out how the victims can be saved.....People of the city engage in Billions of pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument to find a solution to the problem.
> 
> This is not the story of the Mass Shooter.....This is the story of Environmentalism in Industrial Society.
> 
> Environment is being destroyed by Industrial Activity........Environmental Activists and Organizations are trying to save environment without stopping Industrial Activity
> ...


Well, be prepared. It's going to get better with your insanity evaporating. Watch it if you please.

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## Paulclem

> Story of Pseudo Environmentalism in Industrial Society.
> 
> A Serial Killer with endless supply of ammunition goes on the rampage in the city.....The Police are informed.....They arrive on the scene.....They do not try to stop or capture the shooter.....They do not try to kill or incapacitate the shooter.....They allow him to continue shooting......They give him full liberty to move around all over the city.
> 
> The Police focus on the victims of shooting.....They take them to Hospitals and try to save them with the help of best Technology / Health Care.....The Government sets up thousands of Organizations to do research on how the Whites can be saved, How the Blacks can be saved, How the Asians can be saved, How the Young can be saved, How the Elderly can be saved.....The Government gives Billions of Dollars of Grant to "Think Tanks" and NGO's to find out how the victims can be saved.....People of the city engage in Billions of pages of Discussion, Debate and Argument to find a solution to the problem.
> 
> This is not the story of the Mass Shooter.....This is the story of Environmentalism in Industrial Society.
> 
> Environment is being destroyed by Industrial Activity........Environmental Activists and Organizations are trying to save environment without stopping Industrial Activity
> ...


The problem is politics. Governments are not swift enough to adopt green measures and promote sustainable living enough - but it is beginning. Your post is apocalyptic and retrograde. I've no idea what you think would happen to all the people who are sustained by modern processes and economies. We now need these systems to sustain our populations. What is certain is that without a drastic reduction in the population, a return to the agricultural past will not happen.

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## sushil_yadav

.
*When there was still time to save environment a whole century was wasted in the futile debate over Capitalism, Socialism and Communism.*

Trying to save environment after 250 years of relentless Industrial Activity is like trying to revive a dead man.....There is hardly any environment left to save.

*Industrial Activity destroys environment.....Where there is Industrial Activity there is environmental destruction.....Capitalism, Communism or Socialism doesn't matter at all.*

Monsanto is not going to become less harmful under Communism or Socialism.

Nuclear Power Plants are not going to become less harmful under Communism or Socialism.

Mining Industry is not going to become less harmful under Communism or Socialism.

Logging Industry is not going to become less destructive under Communism or Socialism.

Construction Industry is not going to become less destructive under Communism or Socialism.

Transportation Industry is not going to become less harmful under Communism or Socialism.

Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Tar Sands and Hydraulic Fracking are not going to become less destructive under Communism or Socialism.

.
.

This planet cannot sustain an Industrial / Urban Society......The problem is not Capitalism, The problem is Industrialization / Urbanization.......The solution is not Communism or Socialism, The solution is Non-Industrial / Non-Urban Society.

Capitalism, Communism or Socialism does not matter at all........What matters is percentage of Urban Population......A Socialist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population will be as Harmful, Destructive and Evil as a Capitalist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population...... A Communist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population will be as Harmful, Destructive and Evil as a Capitalist Industrial Society with 80% Urban Population.

Urban Population is responsible for consumerism.......Urban Population does not produce Food.....It produces thousands of Consumer Goods and Services.

Consumerism is directly proportional to Percentage of Urban Population.

Saving environment in Industrial Society is an impossibility......No Industrial Society can save environment.......Communist or Socialist Industrial Societies cannot be less destructive than Capitalist Industrial Societies.

There cannot be any sustainable Industrial Society........The fault does not lie in Capitalism.....The fault lies in Industrialization.....All Industrial Societies are the same.....All Industrial Societies are equally harmful, destructive and evil.

Destruction of environment is guaranteed in Industrial Society......The debate over Capitalism, Communism and Socialism in the context of Environmental Crisis is meaningless and absurd.

Industrialization , Urbanization and Consumerism go hand in hand......They happen together.

Today 50% of world population is Urban, living in cities...... 50% of world population is producing food for entire population and the remaining 50% population living in Cities is primarily engaged in production and marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services........Urban population is not producing food, it is producing consumer goods and services.......Even if the entire world is made Communist or Socialist it is not going to bring about any change in consumerism because the percentage of Urban Population will remain the same and it will continue producing and marketing thousands of consumer goods and services.

In America 90 - 95% of population is Urban......That is why consumerism is so rampant in the US......Even if America is made Communist or Socialist it is not going to reduce consumerism because the percentage of Urban Population would still remain the same.

In Europe 80 - 90% of population is Urban.

In China and India consumerism has risen exponentially with the increase in percentage of Urban Population.

Capitalism, Communism or Socialism does not matter.......What matters is Industrialization and Urbanization which results in Consumerism.

This planet cannot sustain Industrial Urban Population.......This planet cannot sustain a society that does not produce its own food.

This planet can sustain a Hunter_Gatherer Society or an Agrarian Society where almost the entire population is engaged in "searching for food" / producing food......This planet cannot sustain an Industrial Society where 50% of population is producing food for entire population and the remaining 50% population is producing thousands of consumer goods and services.

.
.

A person is being shot 100 times......Some people are supposed to save the victim.....They do nothing till 99 bullets have hit the victim.....When the last bullet is about to be fired they rush to save the victim, who is already dead by then.

Industrial Activity has been destroying Biodiversity and Ecosystems for 250 years.....Industrial Society should not have been started in the first place.....Once it came into existence its harmful impact on environment should have alerted people and they should have tried to stop Industrial Activity in the early stages.....If people had tried to stop Industrial Activity 50 years or even 100 years after it began, environment could have been saved because most of the environmental destruction has taken place in the last 50 - 100 years when the rate of Industrialization and Consumerism rose exponentially.....Trying to save environment after 250 years of Industrial Activity is like trying to revive a dead man.....There is hardly any environment left to save.

More than 99.9% destruction of this planet has already happened.....Only the end of humans is yet to happen.

Most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems have already been destroyed.

*Species are not lost when they become extinct....Species are lost when they get decimated....Species were lost when their populations dropped from billions and millions before industrialization to thousands and hundreds after industrialization.*

There are(were) millions of species in this world....Most of them have already been decimated because Industrial Activity has destroyed most of the forests....Millions of Plant and Animal species have been decimated by Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks, Ports and Airports..

*If we calculate the decline in populations of millions of species after industrialization the combined loss will come to more than 99.9%.*
.
.

Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Atmosphere and Land have been polluted, poisoned and killed by trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.....The entire planet has become a Toxic Dump.....All Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste that has been produced by Industrial Society in 250 years after Industrial Revolution has accumulated on earth....It has not gone out of earth.

Oceans have turned acidic and warmer and there are oxygen deprived dead zones in the oceans....Fish in the oceans have been decimated by Industrial Fishing.

Billions of acres of fertile soil that was the source of food to millions of species has been killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt.

More than 99.9% destruction of this planet has already happened.....Only the end of humans is yet to happen.

A society that has destroyed all the natural resources of the planet will also destroy itself.

After destroying biodiversity and ecosystems which sustained human life for millions of years man will not exist...It is only a matter of a few years now.
.
.

When a mass shooter kills 20 American kids the world is outraged.

When millions of baby seals are clubbed to death the world is not outraged.

When Industrial Society kills billions of animals in Slaughter Houses the world is not outraged.

When Industrial Society kills billions of wild animals by destroying forests with Industrial Activity the world is not outraged.

When Industrial Society kills Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Atmosphere and Land with billions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste the world is not outraged.

When Industrial Society kills billions of acres of fertile soil that provides food to millions of species with Cement, Concrete and Asphalt the world is not outraged.

When Industrial Society kills ecosystems that are home to millions of species it is called Progress, Growth, Development.

.
.

*Who is not a killer in Industrial Society?????*

*Every citizen of Industrial Society is a Serial Killer.....Serial Killer of nature.....Serial Killer of animals, trees, air, water and land.*

Industrial Society has killed billions of farm animals in Slaughter Houses and billions of wild animals in forests with Industrial Activity for making consumer goods and services.....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita killing of animals.

Industrial Society has killed billions of Trees in forests with Industrial Activity for making consumer goods and services.....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita killing of Trees.

Industrial Activity has produced billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous Industrial Waste.....This waste has polluted and poisoned air, water and soil....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita waste which is a measure of per capita killing of air, water and soil.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is a Serial Killer.....Serial Killer of nature.....Serial Killer of animals, trees, air, water and land.

Mass shooters are not the only insane people in this society.....The entire Industrial Society is insane.

The entire Industrial Society is insane, abnormal and criminal.

.
.

Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.

This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" Societies.....It cannot sustain an Industrial Society.

This planet can only sustain Hunter_Gatherer Society or Agrarian Society.....It cannot sustain an Industrial Society....It cannot sustain an Urban Society that produces thousands of consumer goods and services instead of food.

An Industrial Society will always be cruel to millions of other species and to itself.

A society that has destroyed all the natural resources of the planet will also destroy itself.

After destroying biodiversity and ecosystems which sustained human life for millions of years man will not even exist.

Welfare of humans and millions of other species is only possible in a non-industrial society.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth....The biggest act of killing, murder and terrorism on earth.

.
*Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*

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## sushil_yadav

.

Five Elephants were run over by a train in the state of Orissa in India yesterday.

One of them was a female in advanced stage of pregnancy whose foetus came out as the train hit the mother.

The world will celebrate one more New Year's Eve today......After torturing, slaughtering and decimating millions of species this world will celebrate yet another New Year today.
.
.

After destroying planet Earth.....After destroying most of the biodiversity and ecosystems, Industrial Society should be in Mourning but it wants to Celebrate instead.

It wants to Celebrate Diwali, Christmas, New Year and Hundreds of other Festivals.

If Industrial Society had any shame there would have been no Celebrations in the past , no celebrations for the next thousands of years.....only Mourning.

Industrial Society has decimated millions of Animal Species, destroyed Forests, poisoned Rivers, Oceans, Soil and Sky with Billions of Tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste.

Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.

Celebrate!!!....Celebrate!!!....Celebrate!!!

Celebrate Diwali, Christmas, New Year and Hundreds of other Festivals!!!!.....Go Shopping.....Spend Money.....Buy Gifts....Buy thousands of consumer goods and services.....Promote and Accelerate Industrial Activity which will kill even more Biodiversity and Ecosystems.

And then wait for next year to celebrate the death of nature once more.
.
.

Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.

This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" Societies.....It cannot sustain an Industrial Society.

This planet can only sustain Hunter_Gatherer Society or Agrarian Society.....It cannot sustain an Industrial Society....It cannot sustain an Urban Society that produces thousands of consumer goods and services instead of food.
.
.

*Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*

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## stlukesguild

If Industrial Society had any shame there would have been no Celebrations in the past , no celebrations for the next thousands of years.....only Mourning.

So why don't you take on that project for us... a thousand years of mourning... instead of typing on your computer and posting on the internet... both products of industrialization. Your whole rant is nothing more than a moronic fantasy. You may imagine that the pre-industrial work was some idyllic fairyland... in spite of what you see in the under-developed nations of the world, but history suggests something quite different:

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pink..._violence.html

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## sushil_yadav

.

Eat, Drink and make Merry (while the planet burns).

.

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## miyako73

I'm not being racist.

If the world will collapse environmentally, culturally, philosophically, economically, politically, spiritually, technologically, socially, Indians are to blame. Anywhere you go in the world, you'll see Indians manage or monopolize these things. The Indianization of the world is currently happening.

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## sushil_yadav

..
Progress, Growth and Development (of the material kind) are / were primarily western concepts which were forced upon rest of the world.

Today the entire world is collectively involved in destruction of environment but the biggest role in this process of destruction was played by Western Civilization.

The West was the first to start Industrial Revolution and travel on the destructive path of Industrialization and Consumerism.......It then forced western lifestyle on its colonies in Asia, Africa and America whose cultures it had already destroyed during the era of Colonization.

The West took the entire world on the wrong path of Industrialization, Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP that has led to destruction of most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems.

The West did not have the foresight to know that a lifestyle based on loot, plunder and exploitation of natural resources would destroy the very things that created and sustained all life on earth for millions of years and ultimately lead to total destruction of biodiversity and ecosystems.

The West started Industrial Revolution and promoted Materialism because it focused on "Reason"......The East had focused on "Subjective Experience" for thousands of years which led to "Spiritual Development".

The West spent its time and energy on "reason" which led to Science, Technology and Industrialization / Material Development....The West has got very little knowledge of Spiritual Development.....Very little concept of peaceful states of mind / peaceful subjective experience.

The Aborigines of Australia would not have started the Industrial Revolution.

Red Indians / Native Americans would not have started the Industrial Revolution.

The Africans are very unlikely to have started the Industrial Revolution.

These cultures were quite happy and content with their Rituals and Spiritual Practices.

In India people had made efforts for Spiritual Development for thousands of years.....They developed methods and techniques for making the mind quiet, tranquil and peaceful......The knowledge of subjective experience led to the fields of yoga, meditation and pranayam [breath control].......Material Development has destroyed the planet, If any kind of development was needed it was Spiritual Development.

Human work should fulfill the basic needs of food, clothing and shelter.....It should not turn into overwork or destructive work.....If extra time is available to people and society after basic needs have been fulfilled it should be used for Spiritual Practices, Art and Culture.
.
.
*Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment*

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## miyako73

This is the kind of thinking that exports poverty (Indian version) all over the world through World Bank and Asian Development Bank whose policy makers are mostly Indians.

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## Emil Miller

This a difficult subject to deal with because while much of what you say is indisputable, the rest is open to question.
For those who would argue against the proposal, they should remind themselves that the Earth's resources are finite.
Those who argue for it must realise that that mankind, at its present stage of development, isn't going to revert to a hunter gatherer lifestyle. 

What has become increasingly obvious in fairly recent times is that humans are simply part of a system but like other life forms are subject to a correction in their numbers according to the exigencies of natural forces of which we understand little. If all the famines, plagues, wars and natural disasters to which humans are prone had not taken place. the world's population would already have outstripped the resources that maintain it. It seems reasonable to assume that this correction in numbers is part of some indefinable balancing act that keeps humans at the top of the food chain without destroying their species in the process.
Given that, through science, we have managed to massively increase our numbers despite the aforementioned correcting factors, there would appear to be a need for a correspondingly massive reduction in the earth's population.
How this will come about is not known but nuclear war is a distinct possibility. The usefulness of atomic energy as a source of power has been undermined by catastrophic events in Russia ( Ukraine) and Japan, but its efficacy as a means of mass destruction remains unaltered.
Pandemics are also a possible method by which a large swathe of humanity could be reduced or there could be a drastic lowering of the sperm count in the male population as recent French studies have shown.
In any case, what is indisputable is that the current surge in industrial activity in the so called BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China) cannot be environmentally sustained and will have both short and long-term consequences for mankind as a whole.

----------


## Alexander III

> I'm not being racist.
> 
> If the world will collapse environmentally, culturally, philosophically, economically, politically, spiritually, technologically, socially, Indians are to blame. Anywhere you go in the world, you'll see Indians manage or monopolize these things. The Indianization of the world is currently happening.





> This is the kind of thinking that exports poverty (Indian version) all over the world through World Bank and Asian Development Bank whose policy makers are mostly Indians.


It is a universaly aknowleged truth that all financially sucessfull races belong in the oven.

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## sushil_yadav

..

*Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners.
*
Environment has been destroyed by Urban Population, Urban Work and Urban Education.

All Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is being run by Urban Population and Urban Education.

Industrial Activity has destroyed so much environment in 250 years that there is hardly any environment left to save.

Industrial Activity for production of thousands of consumer goods and services must stop immediately....Millions of other species get only food from earth....The maximum that man can/ should get is food, clothing and shelter....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working.

Billions of animals are being slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day.....Billions of fish are being killed by Industrial Fishing every day....Millions of acres of Forests are being destroyed by Industrial Activity every day....Millions of wild animals in forests are being killed by Industrial Activity every day.....Millions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste is being added to environment every day....Millions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste and eWaste are being added to environment every day.... Millions of acres of Fertile Soil is being killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day....Nuclear Industry has produced millions of tonnes of Nuclear Waste which will keep contaminating the planet with hazardous radioactivity for the next thousands of years.

*Progress, Growth, Development. 
*
This is terminology for all unnecessary and destructive work being done by Urban Population.

*Growth Rate - Economy Rate - GDP. 
*
These are figures for all unnecessary and destructive work being done by Urban Population.

*If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.

If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.*

If Urban Society stops all its supplies to Villages......electricity, oil, machinery, equipment and consumer goods, Villagers will survive forever.

If Villages stop all their supplies to Cities......Food Grains and Vegetables, Urban Population will die within a month.

[ Villagers need Electricity, Oil, Machinery and Equipment to produce food for the Urban Population , They would not need these things to produce food for themselves]

*Urban Work is not only dispensable it is highly injurious to planet earth.
*
Two centuries of Urban Work after industrialization has destroyed most of the biodiversity and ecosystems on earth.

Urban Work must stop immediately.

Cities, Urban Dwellers, Urban Work and Urban Education are a curse on this planet.

Urban Dwellers are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.

Urban Dwellers are serial killers of nature....Serial Killers of Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land.

If consumer goods are eliminated from cities people will not die....If food and water are eliminated from cities people will die.

*Growth Rate* - *Economy Rate* - *GDP*
These are figures of "Ecocide".
These are figures of "crimes against Nature".
These are figures of "destruction of Ecosystems".
These are figures of "Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality".

Urban Population is a curse on this planet....Urban Dwellers are a curse on this planet.

Urban Population has destroyed necessary things [Animals, trees, Air, Water and Land] for making unnecessary things [Consumer Goods and Services]

Food, clothing and shelter are necessities, Not thousands of consumer goods and services.

.
.


For millions of years "Searching For Food" / "Producing Food" were the primary occupations of almost the entire human population in Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian Society.

There is Zero chance of saving the little environment that is left on earth without fixing the problem of "Urban Population".

.
.

All Urban Dwellers are Eco Killers.....Adults as well as Children.

Urban Adults are already destroying environment by running Industrial Activity for production and marketing of thousands of consumer goods and services......Children are being groomed to do the same in future through Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education.

School and University Education has destroyed environment....All Industrial Activity is being run by Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education.

Everything in Cities is destructive in nature......Urban Dwellers, Urban Work, Urban Education.....Everything.

Environment has been destroyed by Urban Dwellers, Urban Work and Urban Education.

The source / cause of all Industrial Activity is Urban Population, Urban Work and Education.

**Urban population trying to save environment is like Petrol trying to extinguish a fire.**

.
.

Rural Population of this world is doing work.....Urban Population of this world is doing destructive work.

Rural Population is producing food......Urban Population is producing thousands of consumer goods and services.

Since Urban Population is not producing food, it has created thousands of unnecessary professions to keep itself occupied [People would go crazy without work]....Destructive works and professions of Urban Dwellers include Production of consumer goods and services, Marketing of consumer goods and services, Jobs in Tourism Industry, Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Military Industrial Complex, All kinds of unnecessary research and jobs in hundreds of other fields.

.
.

Why should rest of the world suffer for the decadent and destructive lifestyle of Urban Dwellers????

Why should Forests be destroyed for the Industrial Projects of Urban Dwellers????

Why should Animals and Trees die for the Industrial Projects of Urban Dwellers????

Why should Villages and Tribal Land be destroyed for the Industrial Projects of Urban Dwellers????

Why should Rivers, Lakes and Oceans be destroyed for the Industrial Projects of Urban Dwellers????

.
.

A fraction of world population producing food for entire population....This is the root cause of all environmental destruction.

Rural Population producing food for Urban Population....This is the root cause of all environmental destruction.

Urban Population is not producing food, It is doing *Extra* Work which is causing *Extra* Destruction of environment.....Urban Population is producing thousands of consumer goods and services which has led to *Exponential* Extra Destruction of environment.

All Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is being run and promoted by Urban Population of the world.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth....The biggest act of killing, murder and terrorism on earth.

This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" Societies.

Hunter_Gatherer Society was sustainable.....Agrarian Society was sustainable.....The question of Industrial Society being sustainable doesn't arise.

We cannot save environment by destroying more of it.....We cannot save environment by destroying it for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
.
.

Animal Species had Zero Percent Urban Population.......Hunter_Gatherer Society had Zero Percent Urban Population.......Agrarian Society had less than Two Percent Urban Population.......All these societies sustained for millions of years collectively.

The current Industrial Society which has 50% Urban Population worldwide has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years after Industrial Revolution.......Industrial Activity has been promoted by Urban Population......Industrial Activity has been promoted by people who do not produce food.

This planet can sustain Animal Species.....It can sustain Hunter_Gatherer Human Society......It can sustain Agrarian Human Society......It cannot sustain Industrial Human Society.

This planet can only sustain food producing societies where almost the entire population is engaged in food production......It cannot sustain an Industrial Society where 50% of world population is growing food for entire population and the remaining 50% living in cities is promoting Industrial Activity.

Animals saved environment for millions of years because they destroyed it only for food.....Hunter_Gatherer Society saved environment because it destroyed environment only for food.....Agrarian Society saved environment because it destroyed environment only for food, clothing and shelter.

Industrial Society has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems because it destroyed environment for "Thousands of consumer goods and services" in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

In the Animal Kingdom, Hunter_Gatherer Society and Agrarian Society almost the entire population was engaged in "Searching for Food" / "Growing Food".

It is the Urban Population that is engaged in and promoting all kinds of Industrial Activity ......Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Transportation Industry, Construction Industry, Recycling Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Millions of kilometers of Rail & Road network, Air Routes and Shipping Lanes.

Food, clothing and shelter......These are the maximum number of things this planet can provide to humans......The only way to save the remaining environment is by reorganizing the entire population so that food production remains the only primary activity just like it was for millions of years before Industrialization.

.
.

Industrial Society has existed for barely 250 years which comes to almost Zero Percent of Total Human Existence on earth....In fact Industrial Society has existed for only about 100 years....Although Industrial Revolution started 250 years ago most of the world became heavily industrialized only in the last 100 years....100 years of Industrial Activity has destroyed this planet.....100 years of Industrial Activity has destroyed what was not destroyed in millions of years on earth.

Humans have spent more than 99.99% of their time on earth in Non-Industrial Societies [Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian].....Industrial Society is an Anomaly....Only Non-Industrial Societies are sustainable on earth.

.
.

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.....The food should of course be vegan/ vegetarian as far as possible.
.

----------


## cafolini

Yes, it is very destructive. Watch your arce go up in flames. ROFLMAO

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## Ughek

> I agree with you that there is a lot that could be criticized about our materialist shopping culture. However, is there perhaps another dimension to this argument? 
> 
> In one sense, Western industrial (or post-industrial) societies enjoy some hefty advantages over pre-industrial societies. For instance, life expectancy has increased due to better nutrition, modern medicine and so on. Personally, I am very grateful for these aspects of current western society. Another thing is that technology has freed up time since we are no longer obliged to spend the majority of our lives in the quest for subsistence. Do we really want to go back to just putting food on the table? Does a simple agricultural life really allow for a richer emotional experience? Ive always thought of agriculture as very hard work, but then I am a life long city dweller so I have no direct experience here. 
> 
> Appreciating the advantages of technology does not necessarily rule out being critical of the present state of affairs. E.g. Karl Marx was critical of capitalist inequality, but at the same time, impressed by the abundance generated by industrial innovation. I would tend to say that the issue is not one of rejecting industrialization etc. but of working to see how its advantages can be extended to the majority of people in the world, rather than as at present, being confined to a privileged few. How this might be achieved in an environmentally responsible manner is, as you indicate, a troubling and highly significant question.


I would consider myself a "green anarchist", someone who believes that our structures of government and economics have brought us social stratification, (modern-day) slavery, pollution... basically nothing worth saving.

It is true that life expectancy has increased due to modern medicine (I wouldn't say nutrition, but rather the understanding of healthy, balanced diets). Yet, modern medicine is a horrible, filthy business. It is a business based on profit rather than humanity. Never mind the process of making drugs, take a look at the prices of generic drugs as opposed to brand drugs and at the lobby work 'big pharma' does to limit production and distribution of generic drugs. I especially advise you to look at aids drugs. It's an industry that would rather see the third world infected with aids than a world where cheap, generic drugs are easily available. So in a way, yes modern medicine has done a lot of good but it's a part of that sickening, capitalistic machine and basically causes, I dare say, more suffering.

It's debatable whether technology freed up time. It certainly hasn't freed us. I would dare to bet that the average hunter-gatherer today spends less time working than the average westerner. He certainly doesn't spend more time working. He's not bound by debt (we are, maybe not personally but whose country is without?), he's not forced to work to afford housing, electricity, water, food, health care, transportation... He is much more free. Are you not working everyday to be able to live? What has changed? We've lost our autonomy. I'd say farming, hunting and gathering food are healthy activities. You're diet, if you take into account what we know today, would be healthier. We'd have less problems in the world. 

Sure, there will be hunger at times, higher death rate possibly, war will not vanish but the most important advantage is that small scale local farming or a hunter gatherer lifestyle is sustainable and in the end I think that's the only humane path. The path we are on today will lead to, no has led to slavery, poverty, homelessness, debt, war, pollution, loss of autonomy or sovereignty. Our natural resources being exploited without regard of economic, social or environmental impact and without a clear plan. Very soon, and many experts agree, we'll reach our peak. Even if we'd put all our money on sustainable energy, we'd still reach our platform rather quickly because we're not dealing with the problem, we're simply postponing it. Sustainable retreat is the only viable option, in my opinion. We need to get rid of the notion of growth as soon as possible.

I'm not a pessimist, though. I feel that things, mentalities are slowing changing. This should be the start of a transition. Say goodbye to your ipads, computers, fashionable clothes, cars... and start farming and preserving foods. Start buying locally, start taking your money out of the bank and start investing in alternative "economic" systems... Gradually, however. I guess I won't see it happening but it's really not a matter of choice. Either we decide to do this or we'll be forced to. I choose do say goodbye to unnecessary luxuries (some of which I've named) and I choose to activate people around me. I don't really believe in a doomsday scenario, but you see things happening, like Canada increasing military presence at the North Pole, China guarding its rare minerals, many African countries want sovereignty over natural resources, this trend has been called the biggest threat to development of the Western world... Things are changing, power structures are shifting... Very interesting!

----------


## sushil_yadav

.

*The most dangerous and destructive industry in this world is Education Industry.

Education Industry is the source of all Industrial Activity that has destroyed environment....All other industries are by products of Education Industry.

Universities and Colleges are producing millions of Scientists, Engineers, Economists, MBA's, Business and Finance Graduates who are running and promoting all Industrial Activity in this world.*

Education Industry is the Mother of all Industries.

Education Industry is the Mother of all Environmental Destruction.

All Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is being run by Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education.

Education has destroyed environment.

School and University Education has destroyed environment.

Educated People are the biggest Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.

Schools and Universities must be closed down.....Immediately!!!

Billions of animals are being slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Industrial Farming of animals, Industrial Slaughter Houses, Refrigeration/ Transportation Industry which transports live and dead animals all over the world and Marketing Industry which sells meat.

Billions of fish are being killed by Industrial Fishing every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Industrial Ships which catch fish, Refrigeration/ Transportation Industry which transports fish all over the world and Marketing Industry which sells fish.

Millions of acres of Forests are being destroyed by Industrial Activity every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Marketing Industry, Construction Industry, Transportation Industry, Oil Drilling and Refining Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road networks which are destroying forests moment by moment.

Millions of wild animals in forests are being killed by Industrial Activity every day because of Education....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for the decimation of wild animals.

Millions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste is being added to environment every day because of Education.....Millions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste and eWaste are being added to environment every day because of Education.....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for the poisoning of Rivers, Oceans, Land and Sky/ Atmosphere.

Millions of acres of Fertile Soil is being killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day because of Education....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for destruction of fertile soil by Construction Industry.

Education is responsible for millions of tonnes of Nuclear Waste produced by Nuclear Industry which will keep contaminating the planet with hazardous radioactivity for the next thousands of years.....This radioactivity will remain a potential source of cancer, death, multiple organ failures, physical and mental deformities for thousands of years....Scientific, Technological, Industrial, Business and Financial Education is responsible for Radioactivity produced by Nuclear Industry.

.
.

*Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners. 

Environment has been destroyed by Urban Population, Urban Work and Urban Education.

All Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is being run by Urban Population and Urban Education.*


Animal Species searched for *Food
*
Hunter_Gatherer Society searched for *Food
*
Agrarian Society produced *Food
*
Rural Industrial Society is producing *Food*

Urban Industrial Society is producing *Thousands of Consumer Goods and Services.
*
*Urban Industrial Society is the Anomaly.
*.
.

The work of Urban Industrial Society is Extra, Unnecessary and Destructive.

Urban Work has destroyed environment.....Urban Work must stop immediately.

Production of Industrial Consumer Goods must stop immediately.

*If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.

If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

That is the worth of Urban Work in this world.*

Environment has been destroyed by Urban Population, Urban Work and Urban Education.

All Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is being run by Urban Population and Urban Education.

If Urban Society stops all its supplies to Villages......electricity, oil, machinery, equipment and consumer goods, Villagers will survive forever.

If Villages stop all their supplies to Cities......Food Grains and Vegetables, Urban Population will die within a month.

[ Villagers need Electricity, Oil, Machinery and Equipment to produce food for the Urban Population , They would not need these things to produce food for themselves]

Industrial Activity for production of thousands of consumer goods and services must stop immediately....Millions of other species get only food from earth....The maximum that man can/ should get is food, clothing and shelter.

This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" societies....For millions of years "searching for food"/ "producing food" was the primary occupation on earth.

*The whole society needs to be reorganized...Urban Dwellers have to be relocated in Rural Areas....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work....They can be given food for free in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work.*

.

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## cafolini

Yes, very destructive. It'll make your arse go up in flames.

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## sushil_yadav

*.

Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.
*.
.

Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners.

Environment has been destroyed by Urban Work and Urban Education.
.
.

Urban Society is not only destroying environment moment by moment, It is also celebrating every moment of destruction.

*Destruction.....*Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks, Air Routes and Shipping Lanes are destroying environment moment by moment.

*Celebration.....*Entertainment Industry, Sports Industry, Tourism Industry, Shopping Malls and Restaurants are providing non-stop entertainment to Urban Society.
.
.

If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.

If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

This is the worth of Urban Work in this world.

This is the worth of Progress, Growth, Development.

This is the worth of Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP.

This is the worth of Consumer Goods and Services.

Urban Society has destroyed necessary things [Animals, trees, Air, water and Land] for making unnecessary things [Consumer Goods].

Cities have destroyed Forests, Villages, Tribal Land, Rivers, Oceans and Atmosphere.

The planet is dying and gasping for last breath because of Urban Population.
.
.

This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" societies....For millions of years "searching for food"/ "producing food" was the primary occupation on earth.

The whole society needs to be reorganized...Urban Dwellers have to be relocated in Rural Areas....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work....They can be given food for free in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work.

.

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## hannah_arendt

How would you imagine living without all these things?

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## ralfyman

We are now looking at the results of such. That is, a 2008 financial crash leading to a global economic crisis that has not been resolved, and likely will never be solved as the 2008 crash involved only a fraction of over a quadrillion dollars in risky financial investments. The crisis has spread from the U.S. to Europe and to Asia.

The crisis masked conventional oil production peaking in 2005, and which will likely be dropping in a few years, as producers desperately use shale, tar sands, etc., to meet increasing demand for resources even as these sources of energy have lower energy returns and steeper decline curves. The results include high unemployment, oil prices, and food prices worldwide, leading to global social unrest, from protests in Europe to the Arab Spring.

Meanwhile, what climate scientists predicted in the past would take place decades from now are now taking place, including melting sea ice, methane hydrates being released, etc. Positive feedback factors now appear to make the situation worse. And then there's environmental damage on a scale leading to lower fish harvests, more polluted water, food crop destruction, bee and other species die-offs.

Finally, not surprisingly, we are now seeing increasing militarization among countries, as they engage in proxy wars to take control of oil and other resources. Combine the financial crisis with lack of resources, austerity measures coupled with high unemployment, food and oil prices, leading to more riots, protests, and rallies worldwide, and it won't be surprising if the global economy falls apart once more and wars escalate.

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## sushil_yadav

> Meanwhile, what climate scientists predicted in the past would take place decades from now are now taking place, including melting sea ice, methane hydrates being released, etc. Positive feedback factors now appear to make the situation worse. And then there's environmental damage on a scale leading to lower fish harvests, more polluted water, food crop destruction, bee and other species die-offs.
> 
> Finally, not surprisingly, we are now seeing increasing militarization among countries, as they engage in proxy wars to take control of oil and other resources. Combine the financial crisis with lack of resources, austerity measures coupled with high unemployment, food and oil prices, leading to more riots, protests, and rallies worldwide, and it won't be surprising if the global economy falls apart once more and wars escalate.


*.

After torturing, slaughtering and decimating millions of species on earth humans call themselves the Most Superior Species.

Height of Insanity.....Insanity raised to the power of Infinity.

If millions of other species could vote, man would not get even a single vote for "Most Superior Species" but millions of votes for "Most Inferior Species".*

Human Species is the Most Insane, Abnormal and Criminal Species on earth.

.
.

Millions in this world have died for trivial reasons.

Millions in this world have killed for trivial reasons.

Millions have died and killed for Family, Honour, Country, Religion, Money, Fame and Possessions.

Only a handful have died for environment without which Family, Honour, Country, Religion, Money, Fame and Possessions will not even exist.

Only a handful have killed for environment without which Family, Honour, Country, Religion, Money, Fame and Possessions will not even exist.

The planet is dying.....It is gasping for last breath.

Radical Actions are needed.

Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.

Do it Now.

A few years later would be too late.

.
.

**Oath of Environmentalists in Industrial Society**

Violence is Wrong....Violence is Unacceptable.

We will not indulge in violence to save environment.

We are willing to participate in violence against nature but not against man.

Violence against nature is okay, violence against man is not.

We are willing to witness the Torture, Slaughter and Decimation of millions of other species but not violence against man.

We are willing to witness the destruction of environment till the time there is no environment left on earth but we will not tolerate violence against People and Institutions that are destroying the environment moment by moment.

.
.

People who think they are Non Violent are highly mistaken.

No one is Non Violent in Industrial Society.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is a Serial Killer.....Serial Killer of nature.....Serial Killer of animals, trees, air, water and land.

Industrial Society has killed billions of farm animals in Slaughter Houses and billions of wild animals in forests with Industrial Activity for making consumer goods and services.....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita killing of animals.

Industrial Society has killed billions of Trees in forests with Industrial Activity for making consumer goods and services.....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita killing of Trees.

Industrial Activity has produced billions of tonnes of solid, liquid and gaseous Industrial Waste.....This waste has polluted and poisoned air, water and soil....If we divide this number by total Industrial population we get per capita waste which is a measure of per capita killing of air, water and soil.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is a Serial Killer.....Serial Killer of nature.....Serial Killer of animals, trees, air, water and land.

Even those amongst us who are living very simple lives are still using at least some consumer goods and services whose production and use destroys nature directly or indirectly.

.
.

** No punishment for the biggest crime on earth???? **

** No punishment for the crime which is billions of times bigger than the next biggest crime on earth???? **

** No punishment for the torture, slaughter and decimation of millions of species????.....No punishment for destruction of most of the biodiversity and ecosystems on earth???? **

Promoters of Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are the biggest killers, murderers and terrorists on earth.

No punishment for the People and Institutions that have destroyed the planet in the name of Progress, Growth and Development???

No punishment for poisoning the planet with trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste???

No punishment for killing billions of acres of fertile soil [that was the source of food to millions of species] with Cement, Concrete and Asphalt???

No punishment for decimating fish in the oceans????.....No punishment for turning oceans acidic and warmer????.....No punishment for creating oxygen deprived dead zones in the oceans???

This planet belonged to millions of species, not just man alone.

Man has taken over the entire planet....The Land, The Sky, The Oceans.

Promoters of Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are the biggest killers, murderers and terrorists on earth.

No punishment for the People and Institutions that have destroyed the planet in the name of Progress, Growth and Development???

.
.

This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" societies....For millions of years "searching for food"/ "producing food" was the primary occupation on earth.

The whole society needs to be reorganized...Urban Dwellers have to be relocated in Rural Areas....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work....They can be given food for free in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work.

.
.

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated.

We are approaching Environmental Apocalypse.......The only way to save the remaining environment is by stopping Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services immediately........Industrial Activity must be primarily limited to food, clothing and shelter.......and even in these three fields production and consumption must be kept to the minimum.

.

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## stlukesguild

Human Species is the Most Insane, Abnormal and Criminal Species on earth.

Or simply the most intelligent... and as such the most powerful and deadly?

Millions in this world have killed for trivial reasons.

Millions in this world have died for trivial reasons.

And your point is? Do you assume that humanity was less violent prior to industrialization?

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pink..._violence.html

The planet is dying.....It is gasping for last breath.

Is it? You know this for a fact? 

Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Of course. Ignorance is always a viable solution to any and all problems.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.

Yeah... that'll work. Let's just turn back to the good old days of the hunter-gatherers.

No one is Non Violent in Industrial Society.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is a Serial Killer.....Serial Killer of nature.....Serial Killer of animals, trees, air, water and land.

That would seemingly include you, who have benefited from a modern notion of education for more than the few aristocratic elites, as well as from the use of industrialized technology such as the computer and the internet through which you attempt to spread your ignorant rants.

Every citizen of Industrial Society is a Serial Killer.....Serial Killer of nature.....Serial Killer of animals, trees, air, water and land.

Yawn!

Even those amongst us who are living very simple lives are still using at least some consumer goods and services whose production and use destroys nature directly or indirectly.

Again... this would include you. Why not begin your crusade against human waste by eliminating your use of such useful technologies as the computer, the internet, and electricity used to power these things?

No punishment for the People and Institutions that have destroyed the planet in the name of Progress, Growth and Development???

Please grow up.

This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" societies....For millions of years "searching for food"/ "producing food" was the primary occupation on earth.

So again you would have us return to the pre-civilized eras of the hunter-gatherers... and you imagine that this would be the ideal? 

The whole society needs to be reorganized...Urban Dwellers have to be relocated in Rural Areas....Urban Dwellers have to either transform into full time food producers or they have to stop working in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work....They can be given food for free in order to save the remaining environment from destructive Urban Work.

Yeah... that'll work.

A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.

So without modern industrialization the population would not have increased at such a high rate. Hmmm...? And how did this play out for India? It seems to me that the most advanced industrialized nations are the ones who have the greatest control of their population growth.

If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.

Define "the environment". Your notion of "the environment" seems to be little more than a Romantic ideal.

We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated.

And you imagine that humanity is willing to surrender such and return to living as hunter-gatherers in order to preserve your fantasy notion of some idyllic Garden of Eden?

----------


## cafolini

stlukesguild is nice enough to answer the freak with abundant kindness.

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## mona amon

> Human Species is the Most Insane, Abnormal and Criminal Species on earth. - Sushil Yadhav


Oh come on - haven't you watched Discovery Channel or Animal Planet or National Geographic? Animals can be horribly cruel, trees and plants jostle and choke each other as they compete for air, water and sunlight. The forces of nature are a billion trillion times more powerful and can be more cruel than anything man can ever do. The natural world is a competitive world with or without humans, and that involves cruelty. Deal with it.

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## sushil_yadav

> Oh come on - haven't you watched Discovery Channel or Animal Planet or National Geographic? Animals can be horribly cruel,


.
Which animal species other than man decimated millions of other species???

Which animal species other than man generated billions of tonnes of Metal waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste???

Which animal species other than man decimated fish in the oceans??

Which animal species other than man turned the oceans acidic and warmer???

Which animal species other than man created oxygen deprived dead zones in the ocean???

Which animal species other than man destroyed billions of acres of forests???

Which animal species other than man killed billions of acres of fertile soil with cement, concrete and asphalt???

.

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## Grit

> .
> Which animal species other than man decimated millions of other species???


I know you asked for animal species but Earth itself has decimated millions of other species. Is Earth innately evil? The ice age wiped out millions of unique animals.




> Which animal species other than man generated billions of tonnes of Metal waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste???


None. Which animal species other than humanity is even *capable* of generating those things? Not a fair or even remotely relevant question. Also, I just realized all animals poop so they do actually create waste, and gaseous waste is created by all animals (farting).




> Which animal species other than man decimated fish in the oceans??


Other fish? Sharks? Whales? Cthulu? Birds? Herons really like "decimating" fish, I've seen em at it.




> Which animal species other than man turned the oceans acidic and warmer???


I don't know. Do you know without a shadow of a doubt that we have had that effect? 




> Which animal species other than man created oxygen deprived dead zones in the ocean???


I respond with the same question as above. Do you know without a shadow of a doubt that we have had that effect?




> Which animal species other than man destroyed billions of acres of forests???


http://www.enn.com/wildlife/article/44149

These beetles do. 




> Which animal species other than man killed billions of acres of fertile soil with cement, concrete and asphalt???


I didn't know soil could be killed. That's awfully dramatic. Again, what other animal species can create cement, concrete and asphalt? Oh right, none of them. Unfair question.

What is the point of this tirade of dramatic loaded questions? Humanity is ****ed up beyond belief, we all know that, now what are you going to do about it? Are you living a self-sustainable life as a hermit in the woods? No. The hypocrisy is coming off this post in waves.

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## sushil_yadav

> Are you living a self-sustainable life as a hermit in the woods? No. The hypocrisy is coming off this post in waves.


From what you have written I can make out that your knowledge of the issue being discussed is very poor.

I never claimed that I am not a part of society that is destroying environment.

The title of my article says "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment" and since I am a citizen of Industrial Society I get included automatically.

Environment doesn't get saved if a few people live a simple life.....It doesn't get saved if a few thousand people live a simple life......It doesn't get saved if a few million people live a simple life.....It doesn't get saved even if a few billion people live a simple life [which is happening right now.....Out of 7 billion people roughly half, about 3.5 billion are already living a simple life in Asia, Africa and South America] .......but this has not saved the environment......because the rest 3.5 billion people all over the world are living a highly consumerist life which is enough to destroy all ecosystems.

The entire world has to live a simple life. In animal kingdom all animals lived a simple life.....In Hunter_Gatherer Society all people lived a simple life......In Agrarian Society almost all people lived a simple life.

In a non-industrial society simple living happens automatically....one does not have to make efforts to live a simple life. In a non-industrial society environment gets saved automatically....one does not have to make efforts to save environment.

An Industrial Society produces thousands of consumer goods in addition to food, clothing and shelter.....therefore simple living by entire society is an impossibility and destruction of environment a certainty..

.

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## Grit

> From what you have written I can make out that your knowledge of the issue being discussed is very poor.
> 
> I never claimed that I am not a part of society that is destroying environment.
> 
> The title of my article says "Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment" and since I am a citizen of Industrial Society I get included automatically.
> 
> Environment doesn't get saved if a few people live a simple life.....It doesn't get saved if a few thousand people live a simple life......It doesn't get saved if a few million people live a simple life.....It doesn't get saved even if a few billion people live a simple life [which is happening right now.....Out of 7 billion people roughly half, about 3.5 billion are already living a simple life in Asia, Africa and South America] .......but this has not saved the environment......because the rest 3.5 billion people all over the world are living a highly consumerist life which is enough to destroy all ecosystems.
> 
> The entire world has to live a simple life. In animal kingdom all animals lived a simple life.....In Hunter_Gatherer Society all people lived a simple life......In Agrarian Society almost all people lived a simple life.
> ...


Yep, I'm not well informed on the topic of pollution and what the actual state of things is. Neither are you. There's any number of different theories on what the cause of climate change is. Science doesn't understand how gravity works, what dreams are, what dandruff is and how to prevent it, what the big bang actually was and a hundred other things but they're one hundred percent sure on climate change? 

What the hell is a 'simple life'? Nice term, very clear and tangible. 

You're a doomsayer and have nothing of benefit to offer in terms of helping anyone. 

You're right about one thing. What you propose is an impossibility. The whole world can not simply morph back to the dark ages. 

Thanks for posting, I learned a lot here today.

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## sushil_yadav

> You're a doomsayer and have nothing of benefit to offer in terms of helping anyone. 
> 
> You're right about one thing. What you propose is an impossibility. The whole world can not simply morph back to the dark ages. 
> 
> Thanks for posting, I learned a lot here today.


Eat, Drink and Make Merry while the planet burns.

You need to learn a lot more.

Humans have spent more than 99.9% of their time on earth in non-industrial societies.

This planet is home to millions of species, Not just man alone.

The issue is not what is good for man, The issue is what is good for millions of species.

.

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## cafolini

> Eat, Drink and Make Merry while the planet burns.
> 
> You need to learn a lot more.
> 
> Humans have spent more than 99.9% of their time on earth in non-industrial societies.
> 
> This planet is home to millions of species, Not just man alone.
> 
> The issue is not what is good for man, The issue is what is good for millions of species.
> ...


Never before in history and prehistory there has been more work done to integrate all species as there has been done as a result of the industrial revolution.
Your insanity has no bounds and least of all genuine purpose. You are not showing anything that is not known. If I were you, I would spend my time trying to straighten bananas, monkey.

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## sushil_yadav

> Never before in history and prehistory there has been more work done to integrate all species as there has been done as a result of the industrial revolution.


As true as Iraq having weapons of mass destruction.

Do you take drugs before posting???

You are making a fool of yourself by posting in a thread about which you know nothing.
.
.

More than 99.9% destruction of this planet has already happened.....Only the end of humans is yet to happen.

Most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems have already been destroyed.

Species are not lost when they become extinct....Species are lost when they get decimated....Species were lost when their populations dropped from billions and millions before industrialization to thousands and hundreds after industrialization.

There are(were) millions of species in this world....Most of them have already been decimated because Industrial Activity has destroyed most of the forests....Millions of Plant and Animal species have been decimated by Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks, Ports and Airports..

If we calculate the decline in populations of millions of species after industrialization the combined loss will come to more than 99.9%.

Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Atmosphere and Land have been polluted, poisoned and killed by trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.....The entire planet has become a Toxic Dump.....All Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste that has been produced by Industrial Society in 250 years after Industrial Revolution has accumulated on earth....It has not gone out of earth.

Oceans have turned acidic and warmer and there are oxygen deprived dead zones in the oceans....Fish in the oceans have been decimated by Industrial Fishing.

Billions of acres of fertile soil that was the source of food to millions of species has been killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt.

A society that has destroyed all the natural resources of the planet will also destroy itself.

After destroying biodiversity and ecosystems which sustained human life for millions of years man will not exist...It is only a matter of a few years now.
.

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## sushil_yadav

.

Billions of animals are being slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day.....Billions of fish are being killed by Industrial Fishing every day....Millions of acres of Forests are being destroyed by Industrial Activity every day....Millions of wild animals in forests are being killed by Industrial Activity every day.....Millions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste is being added to environment every day....Millions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste and eWaste are being added to environment every day.... Millions of acres of Fertile Soil is being killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day....Nuclear Industry has produced millions of tonnes of Nuclear Waste which will keep contaminating the planet with hazardous radioactivity for the next thousands of years.

Which pre-industrial society destroyed this much environment???

.

----------


## Grit

> Eat, Drink and Make Merry while the planet burns.
> 
> You need to learn a lot more.
> 
> Humans have spent more than 99.9% of their time on earth in non-industrial societies.
> 
> This planet is home to millions of species, Not just man alone.
> 
> The issue is not what is good for man, The issue is what is good for millions of species.
> ...


Oh goodness. 

Pre-industrial society had higher mortality rates and shorter life spans. You say it's not just about whats good for man but for millions of species.

I believe you would choose to cater to the well being of other species over humanity. Why do you hate your own species?

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## sushil_yadav

> Oh goodness. 
> 
> You say it's not just about whats good for man but for millions of species.
> 
> I believe you would choose to cater to the well being of other species over humanity. Why do you hate your own species?


It is not my problem if you fail to understand written text and jump to wrong conclusions.




> The issue is not what is good for man, The issue is what is good for millions of species.


Here "millions of species" includes man....got it???

Man is alive because of nature.....Man owes his very existence to animals, trees, air, water and land.

After destroying nature man will not even exist.

Is it so hard for you to understand this???

.

----------


## Grit

Actually man could exist without nature. 

What you propose, a hunter gatherer society without any industry, would lead to the majority of humanity being hungry, unable to find shelter, at risk of common disease. 

Many people would die, not to mention with our massive population, we'd be hunting many more animals then before. 

You're delusional in thinking we can change to a HG society. People would die in the millions.

Your plan isnt practical in any way and if you propose saving nature over humanity, I'll ask again. Why do you hate your own species?

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## cafolini

Actually, people could not exist without nature.

But what this freak is saying, I only heard before from the Vice Squad freaks of the Taliban.

----------


## Bleeding Pawn

> .
> 
> Billions of animals are being slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day.....Billions of fish are being killed by Industrial Fishing every day....Millions of acres of Forests are being destroyed by Industrial Activity every day....Millions of wild animals in forests are being killed by Industrial Activity every day.....Millions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste is being added to environment every day....Millions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste and eWaste are being added to environment every day.... Millions of acres of Fertile Soil is being killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day....Nuclear Industry has produced millions of tonnes of Nuclear Waste which will keep contaminating the planet with hazardous radioactivity for the next thousands of years.
> 
> Which pre-industrial society destroyed this much environment???
> 
> .


Is the industrial community the only culprit over here ? 

About deforestation, yes we could say that dying and the last rites of a corpse have become industrialised today. Do you know that in India alone, almost 60 million trees are cut down each year to create funeral pyres, in a way producing almost 10 million tonnes of carbon dioxide?

This practice has endured from time immemorial, preceding the industrial revolution. what solution do you propose to this dilemma ( according to you)?

----------


## sushil_yadav

> About deforestation, yes we could say that dying and the last rites of a corpse have become industrialised today. Do you know that in India alone, almost 60 million trees are cut down each year to create funeral pyres, in a way producing almost 10 million tonnes of carbon dioxide?
> 
> This practice has endured from time immemorial, preceding the industrial revolution. what solution do you propose to this dilemma ( according to you)?


Every problem in this world has been aggravated by Industrialization.

If Industrial Revolution / Industrialization had not happened world population would be less than 2 billion today.....India's population would have been much less than what it is now and much fewer trees would have been cut down for funeral pyres.

Do you know how many trees have been cut down by Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Paper Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Construction Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks???

Industrial Activity for production of consumer goods and services has destroyed millions of times more trees than funeral pyres.

Do you know how many millions of acres of forests have been destroyed in South/ Central America to produce grains and grazing grounds for feeding billions of cattle which are then slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses and imported by America and Europe to feed its population half to two-thirds of which has grown obese due to overeating???

Do you know how many millions of acres of rain forests have been destroyed to produce bio fuel for America and Europe???

.

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## Grit

> Every problem in this world has been aggravated by Industrialization.
> .


.

What about the problem of when you have too many fridges and not enough food? I have three fridges in my apartment, and I keep buying more hummus to keep them full but two of them aren't plugged in because I only have one plug per room and fridges belong in the kitchen. Has that been aggregated by Industrialization too? 

I've been blaming modernization.

.

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## Volya

How exactly do you propose to sustain seven billion people on a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. You effectively seem to be suggesting a mass murder of the human race.

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## sushil_yadav

> How exactly do you propose to sustain seven billion people on a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. You effectively seem to be suggesting a mass murder of the human race.


This is your proposal not mine.




> ..
> A pure non-industrial society is not possible now because Industrialization has increased world population to 7 billion.......World population increased from 1 billion in 1800 to 7 billion in just about 200 years after industrialization.......In the absence of industrialization world population would have been less than 2 billion today.
> 
> If we want to save the remaining environment we must minimize the things that are destroying environment.
> 
> At present we are destroying environment for Food, Clothing, Shelter plus Thousands of Industrial consumer goods and services.
> 
> We must eliminate the things that were added last to the list......which means Thousands of consumer goods and services, most of which have existed for only about 100 years out of Hundreds of Thousands of years of Total Human Existence on earth .........these have to be eliminated.
> 
> ...

----------


## Darcy88

Sushil I like your last post there but the problem I have with it is that it would seriously damper scientific and technological progress. You seem to despise technology while I feel that is likely the only hope for saving the world. In a hundred years it is possible that scientists will have discovered remedies to the issues you bring up in this thread.

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## Volya

> This is your proposal not mine.


How do you propose to reduce the population then?

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## Bleeding Pawn

> Every problem in this world has been aggravated by Industrialization.
> 
> If Industrial Revolution / Industrialization had not happened world population would be less than 2 billion today.....India's population would have been much less than what it is now and much fewer trees would have been cut down for funeral pyres.


Industrialisation of a certain country effects the growth rate of the population, how is it so? Can you please clarify.

Many larger and developed countries of the world, where industrialisation boomed earlier, have a low population growth rate and lower percentage of population occupation in proportion to the land surface area they possess, when compared to India. Countries like Russia, Canada, USA, Brazil, Australia, have a low ratio of people/Sqm. Why did not the industrial revolution effect them then?

Lets take the science industry, their invention of the Ultrasonic machines are being effective in determining the gender of the fetus and many couples choose to abort the "babies" if it is a female hence controlling the population of India. Should not we thank the science industry/technology for saving India and the rest of the world from being further infested by species (females) renowned for manufacturing ( producing) of potential would-be, future prospects industrialised products?

----------


## Volya

> Industrialisation of a certain country effects the growth rate of the population, how is it so? Can you please clarify.
> 
> Many larger and developed countries of the world, where industrialisation boomed earlier, have a low population growth rate and lower percentage of population occupation in proportion to the land surface area they possess, when compared to India. Countries like Russia, Canada, USA, Brazil, Australia, have a low ratio of people/Sqm. Why did not the industrial revolution effect them then?
> 
> Lets take the science industry, their invention of the Ultrasonic machines are being effective in determining the gender of the fetus and many couples choose to abort the "babies" if it is a female hence controlling the population of India. Should not we thank the science industry/technology for saving India and the rest of the world from being further infested by species (females) renowned for manufacturing ( producing) of potential would-be, future prospects industrialised products?


I'm pretty sure it is commonly accepted that industrialization leads to population increase. More advancements in science lead to better medical treatment, more efficient farming and construction methods mean there is more to go around, overall increase in wealth allows people to have more children and for less of those children to end up dead.

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## stlukesguild

I'm pretty sure it is commonly accepted that industrialization leads to population increase.

It may be a commonly accepted idea... but it would be false. It isn't the United States, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, or Western Europe that have the highest birthrates. Better nutrition, better healthcare (including access to birth control), and the like contribute to a lower infant mortality rate as well as a better standard of living, including social safety nets. Without these, parents are motivated into having multiple children in order to insure the survival of some who in theory will support said parents later in life. Ultimately, however, this contributes to the cycle of poverty as poor parents struggle to feed and support large families and often lack the time, energy, and ability to help with the children's education. You see this cycle not only in the poorer, less industrialized nations, but also among the poorer communities of the wealthy nations.

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## hannah_arendt

> I'm pretty sure it is commonly accepted that industrialization leads to population increase.
> 
> It may be a commonly accepted idea... but it would be false. It isn't the United States, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, or Western Europe that have the highest birthrates. Better nutrition, better healthcare (including access to birth control), and the like contribute to a lower infant mortality rate as well as a better standard of living, including social safety nets. Without these, parents are motivated into having multiple children in order to insure the survival of some who in theory will support said parents later in life. Ultimately, however, this contributes to the cycle of poverty as poor parents struggle to feed and support large families and often lack the time, energy, and ability to help with the children's education. You see this cycle not only in the poorer, less industrialized nations, but also among the poorer communities of the wealthy nations.


I agree in 100%.i think that one of the main reasons of problems in Poland is worse industrialization.

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## Shevek

> I'm pretty sure it is commonly accepted that industrialization leads to population increase. More advancements in science lead to better medical treatment, more efficient farming and construction methods mean there is more to go around, overall increase in wealth allows people to have more children and for less of those children to end up dead.


I think you're confusing population increase with carrying capacity.

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## Adolescent09

> *Industrial Society Destroys Mind and Environment* 
> 
> The article examines why Writers, Poets and Artists experience more emotion than other people - and would be of interest to members of this forum. The fast-paced, consumerist lifestyle of Industrial Society is causing exponential rise in psychological problems besides destroying the environment.


(*1*)You nearly lost me after the bold theme (pun intended) of your thread topic. You then completely lost me after your marginally offensive claim that writers, poets and artists experience more emotion than other people. Being able to put your emotional thoughts/sensations into words that relate to others has absolutely NOTHING to do with feeling emotions in the first place. If anything, the greater the readership of an author, the more the author feels a need to cater to a target audience, the less said author attaches personal emotion to productions, especially if reader feedback is in disagreement with it. If sales of multiple products are REPEATEDLY higher than expected, feedback from an author's target audience might be completely neglected. From a technological standpoint, Apple's iPhone 5 is a prime example of this: the exploitation of customer loyalty incentivizes cutting back on relevant upgrades and production for the sake of maximizing profit (economists delve into this topic in far greater depth that I am capable of at my age). This loosely explains why the vast majority of an artist's hardcore fan-base often become disappointed with the artist's later works after years of brand loyalty; Ex. (Metallica's 'Master of Puppets' to their god-awful mess of St. Anger and Lulu; Spielbergs's 'Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade' to 'Kingdom of the Crystal Skull') One could argue that the artist's sense of identity is mutually separate from fan loyalty, but it would not explain why album/movie sales of the artist's work increase at a rate that is inversely proportional to critic/fan approval.

(*2*) Following directly from my first point, I don't understand how you can separate industrial growth from authorship or artistry, especially in view of the mainstream. Simon Cowell, Dean Koontz, Rush Limbaugh, Tom Clancy, every last horrible mainstream rapper including ridiculously contrived pop bands/stars ('1D', Taylor Swift, Bruno Mars, Maroon 5 etc.), exploitative Apple, and others might not have much to offer society from an intellectual standpoint and certainly not from an original standpoint but their contribution to the sustenance of the domestic (and to a smaller extent the global) economy cannot be overstated. 

I'll get back to your other points later.

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## Volya

> I'm pretty sure it is commonly accepted that industrialization leads to population increase.
> 
> It may be a commonly accepted idea... but it would be false. It isn't the United States, Canada, Australia, Japan, South Korea, or Western Europe that have the highest birthrates. Better nutrition, better healthcare (including access to birth control), and the like contribute to a lower infant mortality rate as well as a better standard of living, including social safety nets. Without these, parents are motivated into having multiple children in order to insure the survival of some who in theory will support said parents later in life. Ultimately, however, this contributes to the cycle of poverty as poor parents struggle to feed and support large families and often lack the time, energy, and ability to help with the children's education. You see this cycle not only in the poorer, less industrialized nations, but also among the poorer communities of the wealthy nations.


I knew there was something I was forgetting... This is what I get for not paying attention in geography...

But yes, I agree with you there.
I think what I meant to say was that it would have a higher population increase than in a hunter/gatherer society? Because even less developed countries don't function as hunter gatherers any more in most cases (as far as I'm aware).

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## OrphanPip

There is a general trend that holds across most advanced economies that birth rates are actually non-replenishing. Japan's population will actually shrink in the next few years, and the populations of Canada, USA, and Western Europe only grow due to immigration. This creates a conundrum for advanced countries because economic growth depends in part on population growth, which is why most countries actively pursue immigration (Japan being the exception) in order to keep their GDP growing. For whatever reason, when people have jobs, debt, and easy access to birth control they tend to choose to have less children. There are a few exceptions to this though, like Mormons in the US who believe it is a requirement of their faith to have as many children as they can support.

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## ralfyman

> http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pink..._violence.html


Try the second chart in this link:

http://democraticpeace.wordpress.com...odiest-of-all/

The world had more conflict-related deaths in absolute and relative terms during the last century than the previous four.

And given peak oil, environmental damage and climate change, one economic crash after another, the twenty-first may make the twentieth look like a walk in the park.

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## ralfyman

> Oh come on - haven't you watched Discovery Channel or Animal Planet or National Geographic? Animals can be horribly cruel, trees and plants jostle and choke each other as they compete for air, water and sunlight. The forces of nature are a billion trillion times more powerful and can be more cruel than anything man can ever do. The natural world is a competitive world with or without humans, and that involves cruelty. Deal with it.


Compared to human beings? Not even close.

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## ralfyman

> How exactly do you propose to sustain seven billion people on a hunter-gatherer lifestyle. You effectively seem to be suggesting a mass murder of the human race.


More important, how do we meet growing resource demand for the current global population given a limited biocapacity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ical_footprint

----------


## ralfyman

> Sushil I like your last post there but the problem I have with it is that it would seriously damper scientific and technological progress. You seem to despise technology while I feel that is likely the only hope for saving the world. In a hundred years it is possible that scientists will have discovered remedies to the issues you bring up in this thread.


In order to do this, we will need more oil, i.e., the equivalent of one Saudi Arabia every seven years, according to the IEA. Unfortunately, conventional production has peaked, and we can't replace it easily as other sources of energy have lower energy returns.

----------


## ralfyman

> Industrialisation of a certain country effects the growth rate of the population, how is it so? Can you please clarify.
> 
> Many larger and developed countries of the world, where industrialisation boomed earlier, have a low population growth rate and lower percentage of population occupation in proportion to the land surface area they possess, when compared to India. Countries like Russia, Canada, USA, Brazil, Australia, have a low ratio of people/Sqm. Why did not the industrial revolution effect them then?
> 
> Lets take the science industry, their invention of the Ultrasonic machines are being effective in determining the gender of the fetus and many couples choose to abort the "babies" if it is a female hence controlling the population of India. Should not we thank the science industry/technology for saving India and the rest of the world from being further infested by species (females) renowned for manufacturing ( producing) of potential would-be, future prospects industrialised products?


The catch is that prosperity which involves higher resource consumption offsets resource savings due to lower birth rates, which takes place given prosperity.

In that case, for the rest of the world to follow industrialized countries, we will need around three more earths.

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## Darcy88

> More important, how do we meet growing resource demand for the current global population given a limited biocapacity:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ical_footprint


Urban gardening, insects and algae. Water is the only thing I'm really concerned about.

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## Volya

Hopefully we'll have colonized another planet by the time this one becomes uninhabitable.

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## ralfyman

> Urban gardening, insects and algae. Water is the only thing I'm really concerned about.


The urban setting itself requires significant amounts of resources. Insects are also dependent on ecosystems. The energy returns for algae are small.

With that, we face not only problems with water but also with oil, food, and even phosphorus and uranium.

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## ralfyman

> Hopefully we'll have colonized another planet by the time this one becomes uninhabitable.


As the IEA put it, even less complex projects such as moving to other sources of energy will take decades, and economies should have started at least a decade ago, as conventional oil production has already peaked, and surplus energy and resources will be needed for transition.

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## sushil_yadav

.

Industrial Nations are used to threatening their adversaries with Military Might and Nuclear Weapons.

How are they going to deal with Climate which is getting more and more extreme day by day???

Are they going to nuke Hurricanes and Tornadoes too???

Are they going to nuke Droughts and Floods too???

The west used to think droughts and floods are problems of Asia, Africa and poor countries of the world....They are now occurring in the west too.

The day is not far when Agriculture will collapse worldwide due to extreme and irregular weather.

What is man going to eat???.....He has already decimated fish in the oceans.
.
.

Industrial Society is a lunatic society which talks about Justice, Welfare, Morality and Equality after torturing, slaughtering and decimating millions of species and destroying Forests, Rivers and Oceans.
.
.

Jobs or Environment???

Economy or Environment???

This is just unbelievable.....The very fact that man needs to debate this issue shows how insane Industrial Society is.

Without environment man will not even exist.

Jobs have destroyed Environment....Urban Jobs have destroyed Environment.

Economy has destroyed Environment....Millions of other species don't need an economy to live on earth....Human species is the only lunatic one which thinks it needs one.

Endless Discussion, Debate and Argument is a disease and insanity of Industrial Society that invented the Printing Press, Radio, Television and Internet.

Billions of pages of discussion is another harmful waste of Industrial Society just like Billions of Tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous Waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.
.
.

Industrial Society is a lunatic society that takes pride in keeping its cities clean but is not ashamed of littering the entire planet with Industrial Waste.

The entire planet has turned into a Landfill, Garbage Dump, Toxic Dump.

Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Atmosphere and Land have been polluted, poisoned and contaminated with billions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.

Industrial Activity produces three kinds of Industrial Waste......Solid, Liquid and Gaseous......There are only three places on earth where this waste can go - Air, Water and Soil.....There is no fourth place on earth where it can go.....All Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste that has been produced by Industrial Society in 250 years after Industrial Revolution has accumulated on earth....It has not gone out of earth.
.
.

Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.

.

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## Volya

Hmmm yes, we always use nukes to solve our problems don't we... Any examples other than Japan?

You're an over-reacting hippy who wants the world to live in huts made of grass and eat mushrooms, but still wants to be able to use a computer at the same time. You can't have both, if you want to try and stop the 'destruction of mind and environment' then get off the internet and so something in REALITY.

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## osho

I am pretty much moved by this thread and of course environment or ecosystem is damaged and we are triggering the devastation of all that sustain life. Of course humans are the only animals that are engaged in destroying the natural environment. But humans are the only animals that have also advanced to this extent to think that we must protect our environment. This is an ethical question and of course the protection of natural environment is more important than the development of science and technology. However it is hard to say scientific and technological advances have not added value. The span of life increased tremendously and we have been able to cope with population growth through an intensive farming system. 

Can we stop this? This ever unstoppable progression and advancement in science and technology? Who is to take the initiative? We are simply theorizing our philosophy but who can come out radically and revolutionarily to reverse the course of history? 
I like the very idea of protecting our environment but I doubt anyone can turn up to take this Herculean job.

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## sushil_yadav

> Hmmm yes, we always use nukes to solve our problems don't we... Any examples other than Japan?
> 
> You're an over-reacting hippy who wants the world to live in huts made of grass and eat mushrooms, but still wants to be able to use a computer at the same time. You can't have both, if you want to try and stop the 'destruction of mind and environment' then get off the internet and so something in REALITY.


You should be reading more carefully.....I wrote about threatening to use Nuclear Weapons, not actually using them.




> .
> 
> Industrial Nations are used to threatening their adversaries with Military Might and Nuclear Weapons.



Technophiles who ridicule Luddites are the biggest fools.

Luddism is the normality, Industrial Technology is an anomaly.

This world was luddite for millions of years.....Industrial Machines have existed for only 250 years.

Luddism did not destroy Biodiversity and Ecosystems for millions of years.....Industrial Machines have destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years [Actually in just 100 years since most of the world became industrialized only in the last 100 years].

Animals did not use Industrial Machines for millions of years and did not destroy environment for millions of years.

Hunter_Gatherer Society did not use Industrial Machines for 1 million of years and did not destroy environment for 1 million years.

Agrarian Society did not use Industrial Machines for 10,000 years and caused very limited destruction of environment in 10,000 years.

Industrial Society used Industrial Machines and has destroyed most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems in just 250 years....In fact Industrial Society has existed for only about 100 years....Although Industrial Revolution started 250 years ago most of the world became heavily industrialized only in the last 100 years....100 years of Industrial Activity has destroyed this planet.....100 years of Industrial Activity has destroyed what was not destroyed in millions of years on earth.

Humans have spent more than 99.99% of their time on earth in Non-Industrial Societies [Hunter_Gatherer and Agrarian].....Industrial Society is an Anomaly....Only Non-Industrial Societies are sustainable on earth.

.
.

More than 99.9% destruction of this planet has already happened.....Only the end of humans is yet to happen.

Most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems have already been destroyed.

Species are not lost when they become extinct....Species are lost when they get decimated....Species were lost when their populations dropped from billions and millions before industrialization to thousands and hundreds after industrialization.

There are(were) millions of species in this world....Most of them have already been decimated because Industrial Activity has destroyed most of the forests....Millions of Plant and Animal species have been decimated by Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Construction Industry, Manufacturing Industry, Energy Generation Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Transportation Industry, Millions of kilometers of Rail and Road Networks, Ports and Airports..

If we calculate the decline in populations of millions of species after industrialization the combined loss will come to more than 99.9%.

Rivers, Lakes, Oceans, Atmosphere and Land have been polluted, poisoned and killed by trillions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical Waste, Gaseous waste, eWaste and Nuclear Waste.....The entire planet has become a Toxic Dump.....All Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste that has been produced by Industrial Society in 250 years after Industrial Revolution has accumulated on earth....It has not gone out of earth.

Oceans have turned acidic and warmer and there are oxygen deprived dead zones in the oceans....Fish in the oceans have been decimated by Industrial Fishing.

Billions of acres of fertile soil that was the source of food to millions of species has been killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt.


A society that has destroyed all the natural resources of the planet will also destroy itself.

After destroying biodiversity and ecosystems which sustained human life for millions of years man will not exist...It is only a matter of a few years now.

.
.

Industrialization was the biggest crime on earth....The biggest act of killing, murder and terrorism on earth.

This planet can only sustain "Food Searching" or "Food Producing" Societies.

Hunter_Gatherer Society was sustainable.....Agrarian Society was sustainable [It destroyed very little environment as compared to Industrial Society].....The question of Industrial Society being sustainable doesn't arise.

We cannot save environment by destroying more of it.....We cannot save environment by destroying it for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.
.
.

Promoters of Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are the biggest killers, murderers and terrorists on earth.

Development is Destruction.

“Growth Rate” – “Economy Rate” – “GDP”
These are figures of “Ecocide”.
These are figures of “Crimes against Nature”.
These are figures of “Destruction of Ecosystems”.
These are figures of “Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality”.

Politicians who promote Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.

Economists who promote Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.

IMF and World Bank which promote Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.

Rating Agencies which promote Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.

Industrialists who promote Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.

All people and Institutions that promote Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.
.
.

This planet is home to millions of species, Not just man alone.

Millions of other species destroy environment only for food.

The lunatic Industrial Society has destroyed environment for food, clothing, shelter plus thousands of consumer goods and services.

.

Billions of animals are being slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses every day.....Billions of fish are being killed by Industrial Fishing every day....Millions of acres of Forests are being destroyed by Industrial Activity every day....Millions of wild animals in forests are being killed by Industrial Activity every day.....Millions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Waste is being added to environment every day....Millions of tonnes of Metal Waste, Plastic Waste, Chemical waste, Gaseous Waste and eWaste are being added to environment every day.... Millions of acres of Fertile Soil is being killed by Cement, Concrete and Asphalt every day....Nuclear Industry has produced millions of tonnes of Nuclear Waste which will keep contaminating the planet with hazardous radioactivity for the next thousands of years.

Industrial Society is a curse on this planet.

.

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## Volya

Yeah, you've repeated that rant a few hundred times by now.

So for the third time, how do you propose we solve this problem and stop industrial society?

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## osho

> You should be reading more carefully.....I wrote about threatening to use Nuclear Weapons, not actually using them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Technophiles who ridicule Luddites are the biggest fools.
> 
> Luddism is the normality, Industrial Technology is an anomaly.
> 
> ...


Rant a thousand and one times and to the extent of perforating somebody's eardrum. And nothing is going to happen and your high and pitchy sound goes wasted. Of course it indeed impressed me at my first reading of your thread but I did not find in your statements any way-out at all. Can you stop using modern gadgets? Can you stop using animal products? You are and of course the rest of are obsessed with the taste of things. Do you not use leather shoes and belts. You do and all your arguments are indeed good intentions but having just a good intention will not make you a man of action. 

But any way I appreciate your initiative to this end.

If this statement encourages or promotes a single person to plant a tree your ideas fructify or else this becomes trash Mr. Yadav. 
P

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## Darcy88

Funny how people hate over-population and wish we could go back to pre-industrial numbers and yet think they have some right to be one of the remaining billion and a half or so left. 

To achieve greatness you must take risks, a maxim true for all humanity no less than for the individual. For humanity to "progress" we had to open the pandora's box of science and technology. I often long for a pastoral life, a return to nature, but the inertia of development will sooner be stopped than will the earth's orbit around the sun. The world is what it is. Accept it, make the best of it, do what you can to improve it. But don't let the senselessness of it crush your soul.

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## cafolini

> You should be reading more carefully.....I wrote about threatening to use Nuclear Weapons, not actually using them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Technophiles who ridicule Luddites are the biggest fools.
> 
> Luddism is the normality, Industrial Technology is an anomaly.
> 
> ...


You are the curse on this world. Thank goodness you don't have much further to go. We'll baptise you by fire.

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## Volya

> Funny how people hate over-population and wish we could go back to pre-industrial numbers and yet think they have some right to be one of the remaining billion and a half or so left. 
> 
> To achieve greatness you must take risks, a maxim true for all humanity no less than for the individual. For humanity to "progress" we had to open the pandora's box of science and technology. I often long for a pastoral life, a return to nature, but the inertia of development will sooner be stopped than will the earth's orbit around the sun. The world is what it is. Accept it, make the best of it, do what you can to improve it. But don't let the senselessness of it crush your soul.


If we DID want to go back to pre-industrial numbers, we could do so gradually without having to resort to actually killing off people. However it would only work if every couple agreed to only have one child.

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## cafolini

> If we DID want to go back to pre-industrial numbers, we could do so gradually without having to resort to actually killing off people. However it would only work if every couple agreed to only have one child.


Nothing will work except killing the terrorists. WE do not need to reduce population. The terrorists are not our kind of people. Try not to be naive. WE'll colonize space. The sky is indeed the limit.

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## Volya

Didn't say we have to reduce the population... Not sure what you've been smoking cafolini and where you got the idea of terrorists from...

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## sushil_yadav

.

Increase in population has been wrongly associated with overbreeding and vilified as the cause of environmental destruction.

Overpopulation is a consequence of industrialization not overbreeding.....The entire world was overbreeding before industrialization, The entire world is underbreeding after industrialization.....There used to be 5 - 15 children per family before industrialization, Most families are now having 1 - 4 children.

World population jumped from 1 billion in the year 1800 to 7 billion in just 200 years after industrialization.

So if anything is to be blamed for overpopulation it is industrialization.

Overpoppulation and Overconsumerism are consequences/ by-products of Industrialization.

In the absence of Industrialization there would be no overpopulation and no overconsumerism.

Population has not destroyed environment.... This planet can sustain many times the present level of human population if we limit our activity to food, clothing and shelter and stop destroying environment for thousands of Industrial Consumer Goods.

The total requirement of food for millions of species (including man) has not increased on earth, because increase in requirement of food for man has coincided with decrease in requirement of food for millions of other species that have been decimated by man.....The forests that used to provide food to millions of other species before they got decimated are now agricultural land providing food to man.

If half of the world population is undernourished today it is not because of shortage of food but because the other half of world population is overnourished and has become obese due to overeating.

30 - 40% of packaged food in Industrial Society is thrown away.

Vegetarian food can feed a far bigger human population than non vegetarian food.

Billions of tonnes of Food Grains and Billions of acres of Grazing Land is being used to feed billions of cattle which are then slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses to then feed billions of people, half of whom have become obese due to overeating.......If the same food grains and land were used to directly provide vegetarian food to people then a far bigger human population(than the present one) can be sustained.

The entire world has been making efforts to control population for the last 50 years....In the absence of these efforts world population would have been much greater than what it is now.....So there is no problem with population at all.

Industrialization led to overpopulation and overconsumerism....Industrial Society has been trying to control population while increasing consumerism exponentially....This is height of insanity.

If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live for ever.

If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

That is the worth of consumer goods in this world.

Environment has been destroyed by consumerism not population.

*The combined population of other species (whose size and weight) were equivalent to or greater than man was much greater than the present human population.....Yet they destroyed very little environment because they destroyed environment only for food , not for thousands of industrial consumer goods and services.

The total burden of population has not increased on earth........Increase in human population has coincided with decrease/ decimation of millions of other species.

It is the burden of lifestyle that has increased on earth.....Millions of other species destroy environment only for food, Man is destroying environment for food, clothing, shelter plus thousands of consumer goods and services.*

The cause of environmental destruction is consumerism not population.

.

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## stlukesguild

Overpopulation is a consequence of industrialization not overbreeding.....The entire world was overbreeding before industrialization, The entire world is underbreeding after industrialization.....There used to be 5 - 15 children per family before industrialization, Most families are now having 1 - 4 children.

World population jumped from 1 billion in the year 1800 to 7 billion in just 200 years after industrialization.

So if anything is to be blamed for overpopulation it is industrialization.

In other words... industrialization, science, and technology have resulted in a greater infant mortality rate, an increased lifespan (as basic illness that were once fatal are now curable), and greatly improved the diet... and thus the health and immunity of the advanced industrial/technological nations. This, by your argument, is something to be eliminated. Survival of the fittest... let the majority die off. I'm sorry, but you're an idiot.

Perhaps we could fix the problem by employing those nuclear weapons we Westerners always embrace. Start with India. That's what... a billion and a half+... including your own irritating self. Problem fixed.

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## sushil_yadav

.

Just like the grand solutions made by "coalition of the stupid" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Population is a non issue....A total non issue.

The problem is western civilization.

Today the entire world is collectively involved in destruction of environment but the biggest role in this process of destruction was played by Western Civilization.

The West was the first to start Industrial Revolution and travel on the destructive path of Industrialization and Consumerism.......It then forced western lifestyle on its colonies in Asia, Africa and America whose cultures it had already destroyed during the era of Colonization.

The West took the entire world on the wrong path of Industrialization, Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP that has led to destruction of most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems.

The West did not have the foresight to know that a lifestyle based on loot, plunder and exploitation of natural resources would destroy the very things that created and sustained all life on earth for millions of years and ultimately lead to total destruction of biodiversity and ecosystems.

The West started Industrial Revolution and promoted Materialism because it focused on "Reason"......The East had focused on "Subjective Experience" for thousands of years which led to "Spiritual Development".

The West spent its time and energy on "reason" which led to Science, Technology and Industrialization / Material Development.

The Aborigines of Australia would not have started the Industrial Revolution.

Red Indians / Native Americans would not have started the Industrial Revolution.

The Africans are very unlikely to have started the Industrial Revolution.

These cultures were quite happy and content with their Rituals and Spiritual Practices.

In India people had made efforts for Spiritual Development for thousands of years.....They developed methods and techniques for making the mind quiet, tranquil and peaceful......The knowledge of subjective experience led to the fields of yoga, meditation and pranayam [breath control].......Material Development has destroyed the planet, If any kind of development was needed it was Spiritual Development.

Human work should fulfill the basic needs of food, clothing and shelter.....It should not turn into overwork or destructive work.....If extra time is available to people and society after basic needs have been fulfilled it should be used for Spiritual Practices, Art and Culture.
.
.

America has 5% of world population and is consuming 25 - 40% of world resources.

Do you know how many millions of acres of forests have been destroyed in South/ Central America to produce grains and grazing grounds for feeding billions of cattle which are then slaughtered in Industrial Slaughter Houses and imported by America and Europe to feed their population, half to two-thirds of which has grown obese due to overeating???

Do you know how many millions of acres of rain forests have been destroyed to produce bio fuel for America and Europe???

.

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## Pen Name

Talk a lot of tosh do you.

Industrialisation good.

Ignorance bad.

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## Volya

> The West was the first to start Industrial Revolution and travel on the destructive path of Industrialization and Consumerism.......It then forced western lifestyle on its colonies in Asia, Africa and America whose cultures it had already destroyed during the era of Colonization.
> 
> The West took the entire world on the wrong path of Industrialization, Consumerism, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP that has led to destruction of most of the Biodiversity and Ecosystems.
> 
> The West did not have the foresight to know that a lifestyle based on loot, plunder and exploitation of natural resources would destroy the very things that created and sustained all life on earth for millions of years and ultimately lead to total destruction of biodiversity and ecosystems.
> 
> The West started Industrial Revolution and promoted Materialism because it focused on "Reason"......The East had focused on "Subjective Experience" for thousands of years which led to "Spiritual Development".
> 
> The West spent its time and energy on "reason" which led to Science, Technology and Industrialization / Material Development.
> ...


This is hilarious.

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## stlukesguild

The Aborigines of Australia would not have started the Industrial Revolution.

Red Indians / Native Americans would not have started the Industrial Revolution.

The Africans are very unlikely to have started the Industrial Revolution.

These cultures were quite happy and content with their Rituals and Spiritual Practices.

I thought Hippies were extinct. :Sosp:  :Crazy:  :Confused:

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## sushil_yadav

.

Supreme Courts and other courts of the world will never stop Industrial Projects that are destroying Forests, Villages, Tribal Land, Rivers,Oceans and Atmosphere..

Filing petitions in courts to save environment is a total waste of time.

Courts are Urban Institutions....Most of the Higher courts operate from Cities....They employ Urban People.

Urban Courts will always promote the interests of Urban Population, Not the interests of Villagers, Tribal People, Fishermen or Forests, Rivers and Oceans.

Cities are the destroyers of Forests, Villages, Tribal Land, Rivers and Oceans.

Supreme Court judges are Urban Dwellers....If there is no electricity in the city their offices and homes will go dark, their air conditioners will stop working, So they will always give clearance to all kinds of Energy Generation Projects.....Urban Living requires an endless supply of Metals and Minerals, So they will always give clearance to all kinds of Mining Projects.

The children of Supreme Court Judges are studying in Urban Schools and Universities....After passing out they will need jobs....All Urban Jobs are connected with Industrial Activity, directly or indirectly.....Therefore Supreme Court Judges will always promote Industrial Activity without which their children will have no jobs in future.

Judges might pretend to be working for the oppressed by stopping Industrial Projects for a few months but ultimately the approval is sure to come after the farce of Review Committees and Expert Panels all of whose members are Urban Dwellers once again.

Millions of Industries and Corporations are destroying environment....How many Industries and Corporations have been shut down by Courts in the entire world???

No Anti Industrial Protest for saving environment can succeed in this world without fixing the problem of Urban Population and Urban Education.

[And even if a few protests do succeed it is hardly going to make a difference when millions of Industries and Corporations are destroying environment moment by moment]

Almost the entire Urban Population of the world is employed in the Industrial Sector and is promoting Industrial Activity.

All Industrial Activity of the world is being run and promoted by University Graduates.

Whenever a new Industrial Project comes up anywhere whose implementation would destroy Forests, Villages, Tribal Land, Rivers or Oceans, a few hundred/ thousand local people and activists start protesting against the Project whereas millions of Urban People [which includes Governments and All Industrial/ Financial Organizations] start lobbying for the Project.

This is a very Unequal Battle which can never be won by the minority which is trying to save environment.

The battle has already been lost.....The Planet is dying and gasping for last breath.

Nuclear Power Plants, Coal Power plants, Mining Industry, Logging Industry, Oil Drilling, Oil Refining, Tar Sands, Fracking Industry, Monsanto.....None of these industries that are destroying environment can be stopped without fixing the problem of Urban population and Urban Education.

The source/ cause of all Industrial Activity that is destroying environment is Urban Work and Urban Education.

Destruction of environment can never be stopped unless Urban Work is stopped and Universities are closed down.

Urban Work is the problem.....Urban Work is the enemy.

Urban Education is the problem.....Schools and Universities are the enemy.

Industries and Corporations can never be stopped without stopping the Universities that are producing Millions of Scientists, Engineers, MBA's, Economists, Business and Finance Graduates who are running and promoting all Industrial Activity in this world.
.
.

Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.

.

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## Heaven'sflower

uffff seems offensive for me.didn't read the all.

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## Volya

Yeah! We don't need no education! Schools are the enemy! Lets stay stupid!

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## sushil_yadav

.

It is the educated people who are stupid not the uneducated.

Environment has been destroyed by educated people.




> .
> 
> *The most dangerous and destructive industry in this world is Education Industry.
> 
> Education Industry is the source of all Industrial Activity that has destroyed environment....All other industries are by products of Education Industry.
> 
> Universities and Colleges are producing millions of Scientists, Engineers, Economists, MBA's, Business and Finance Graduates who are running and promoting all Industrial Activity in this world.*
> 
> Education Industry is the Mother of all Industries.
> ...

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## Pen Name

Sushil, life is too short to read your over long entries, but the thesis in the question is based on a false premise, so if you don't understand how a high population came about, stop ranting on about a subject of which you obviously know very little.
You are assuming that industrialised people don’t take time out to stop and think.

No we don’t tolerate wasters sitting contemplating their navels in some self centred, look at me aren’t I good because I sit and think, no those sufis or whatever you call them are wasters.

Plato, Christ, Locke (and all the other British philosophers including Adam Smith) merely took time out to think and then DID, they were all in Industrial (or proto industrial) ages.

They didn’t sit around ‘Tossing it off’ which is what you suggest.

The high population is due to the amount of calories available to feed people, and is boosted by Public Health, industrialisation has only helped because there is the sanitation and soap for cleanliness.

This came about, and was inevitable as soon as the first farmer started farming and hunter gatherers stopped.

The population in Australia was low because the Aborigines didn't have farming so starved to death, this is an extremely slow excruciating and agonising way to die.

The population in Asia was a lot higher than Europe because Rice can be harvested upto three times a year and gives a higher calorific yield per acre than, wheat, barley, or chickpeas.

It is the understanding of Public health, and ability to stop people from dying that has given the initial rise in population, in the West this has stopped, and is on the decline, because an affluent society has less children.

This happened in the pre-industrial Roman Empire. 

Indeed in India richer people have fewer children, and this happens all over the world.

Religion and the isms (Communism/Socialism/Fascism) are the main reasons, Nations have high populations, due to ignorance and Socialism which promotes corruption and is the overriding reason the Population of the world is so high.

Corruption is the main reason people are poor, Rule of Law and Free trade are the main reasons people are rich and have fewer children. 

You have ranted on for 7 years apparently unchallenged that your whole argument has no basis, and is in itself based on gross ignorance, of the fact that washing ones hands and yield per acre of land are the main reasons behind the rise in survival rates for children.

Read and learn sunshine, you are suggesting that we make a world where people would die by the billions a very very slow agonising death. 

Industrialisation good, ignorance bad.

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## cafolini

> This is hilarious.


Indeed.

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## ralfyman

Try the documentaries "What a Way to Go: Life at the End of Empire," "Age of Stupid," and others.

Some more points to consider:

Population increased significantly because of oil used for manufacturing and mechanized agriculture. The problem is that conventional oil production is barely rising, non-conventional production has higher energy costs, and demand continues to rise worldwide. The result is oil prices now three times higher than they should be, high food prices, chronic unemployment, etc.

Some studies show that when food prices rise, so does social unrest. This partly explains the Arab Spring, protests in Europe, increasing surveillance in the U.S., tensions in the Middle East and in Asia, and now protests in Turkey and Brazil.

Meanwhile, increasing money supply and credit (e.g., over a quadrillion dollars in unregulated derivatives, notional value) is leading to one economic crisis after another, and the only "solution" that governments can do is to throw in more money into a system that is falling apart because of...too much money.

Die-offs and environmental disasters are being reported readily in the news, such as bee colony collapse, a third of crops destroyed due to flooding or drought, sea ice melting, etc.

Most are in denial of such because they do not want their middle class fantasies of the future to be destroyed, even though everything mentioned describes what happened during the last five years.

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## sushil_yadav

> Try the documentaries "What a Way to Go: Life at the End of Empire," "Age of Stupid," and others.
> 
> Die-offs and environmental disasters are being reported readily in the news, such as bee colony collapse, a third of crops destroyed due to flooding or drought, sea ice melting, etc.


The recent Floods and Land Slides in Uttarakhand in India are more of an Industrial Disaster than a Natural Disaster.

This catastrophe is a consequence of World Bank funded Dam Industry.....Hundreds of Dams and Hydro Electric Projects are being constructed in the fragile mountain range.

This calamity is a consequence of unchecked activities of Construction Industry, Logging Industry, Mining Industry and Tourism Industry.

**Development is Destruction.....Development is Destruction.**

**Growth Rate** - **Economy Rate** - **GDP**....These are figures of Ecocide....These are figures of "Crimes against Nature"....These are figures of "Destruction of Ecosystems".....These are figures of "Insanity, Abnormality and Criminality".

Politicians who promote Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.

Economists who promote Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.

IMF and World Bank which promote Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.

Rating Agencies which promote Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.

Industrialists who promote Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.

All people and Institutions that promote Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP are Eco Killers, Eco Murderers and Eco Terrorists.




> Industrial Nations are used to threatening their adversaries with Military Might and Nuclear Weapons.
> 
> How are they going to deal with Climate which is getting more and more extreme day by day???
> 
> Are they going to nuke Hurricanes and Tornadoes too???
> 
> Are they going to nuke Droughts and Floods too???
> 
> The west used to think droughts and floods are problems of Asia, Africa and poor countries of the world....They are now occurring in the west too.
> ...



Progress, Growth, Development.....This is terminology for all unnecessary and destructive work being done by Urban Population.

Growth Rate - Economy Rate - GDP......These are figures for all unnecessary and destructive work being done by Urban Population.

If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.

If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

That is the worth of Urban Work, Consumer Goods, Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP in this world.
.
.

The planet is dying.....It is gasping for last breath.

Radical Actions are needed.

Industrial Activity for production of thousands of consumer goods and services must stop immediately.

Cities are the Graveyards of Nature, Urban Dwellers the Executioners.
.
.

Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.

Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.

Do it Now.

A few years later would be too late.
.

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## Volya

Blah blah blah

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## Pen Name

Do I detect a change of argument lol.

If one can't win an argument change it to another and pretend no one has noticed, even though none of the arguments make sense, and most are not even true ha ha.

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## Darcy88

Sushil is right. We are all burying our heads in the sand.

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## cafolini

> Sushil is right. We are all burying our heads in the sand.


I never thought you were a 300-pound ostrich.

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## osho

Destruction is a natural phenomenon, Sushil, and you cannot survive without killing something. Go to the wilderness one species lives on another. You are right when you say industrialization has imbalanced our natural conditions. But all we want is comfort and I cannot give up the comforts of driving a car on thinking that it pollutes the environment. I am born to use cars, refrigerators. I am living, and I think you too, in a cemented building. We eat biscuits and other industrially produced and processed foods.

Most of us are aware of our destructive attitudes and actions. We cannot reverse our course of living and restart living in the wilderness. We cannot think about reinventing the wheel and we are in an age of rockets and robots or stem cells - therapies. 

All these are value judgements and you can be a good judge on all these ethical or philosophical questions. Your words will go vaporized. If you really can, plant a few plants if you have a garden or if you are really dynamic and live up to your ideals take the campaign of planting plants or else you too will remain a polluter though you sound high in your statements.

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## sushil_yadav

.
There are no choices available.

If we don't stop destroying environment for thousands of Industrial Consumer Goods we go out of existence within a few years.

Other species destroy environment only for food.....Man has destroyed environment for thousands of consumer goods and services in addition to food, clothing and shelter.

The abnormality of man is crystal clear.

If Urban Society stops its supplies to Rural Society it will live forever.

If Rural Society stops its supplies to Urban Society it will die within a month.

This is the worth of Urban Work in this world.

This is the worth of Progress, Growth, Development.

This is the worth of Growth Rate, Economy Rate and GDP.

This is the worth of Consumer Goods and Services.

Urban Dwellers have destroyed necessary things [Animals, Trees, Air, Water and Land] for making unnecessary things [Consumer Goods].

Cities have destroyed Forests, Villages, Tribal Land, Rivers, Oceans and Atmosphere.

The combined work of society should be limited to food, clothing and shelter.....If we don't do this we go out of existence very soon.

.

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## osho

You are true. You identified the problem. Fine. You have not arrived at any solution. You are parroting the same thing but tell us what needs to be done and our way out of this traumatic situation. As Why do you not think deeply about afforestion? Replanting our deserts and going across villages. Do the small things that can change small communities of people rather than wasting time and energies. 

We can instantly reverse our industrialization ' modern civilization and ways of living. We are accustomed to certain lifestyles. I cannot put off my industrially manufactured clothes to live in a primitive way.

Living rurally is unthinkable for many who have though many generations been living in the urban.

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## sushil_yadav

.
Where should we start planting trees???

On billions of acres of cement, concrete and asphalt????.....In cities and towns???.....On millions of kilometers of roads and rail networks???.....On ports and airports????....In millions of golf courses, sports stadiums and Formula one race tracks???.....On millions of shopping malls and buildings???....On mining sites and industrial zones???

Forests are not saved by planting trees.....Forests are saved by not cutting trees.

Nature has been doing the work of planting trees for millions of years....That is how all the forests in the world came into existence.

Millions of animal and bird species worked for millions of years to build up all the forests in the world....Millions of animal and bird species helped in spreading the seeds of billions of trees and plants all over the world.....Wind and water helped in spreading the seeds of billions of trees and plants over billions of acres of fertile soil across the world. 

Industrial Activity has destroyed most of the forests in the world....The very few forests that remain on earth can only be saved by stopping Industrial Activity for production of thousands of consumer goods and services.

For millions of years on earth forests were saved because they were not destroyed by Industrial Activity.

.

Forests are not saved by planting trees.....Forests are saved by not cutting trees.

Environment cannot be saved by thousands of environmental organizations and millions of environmental activists after it has been destroyed by Industrial activity....Environment can only be saved by not destroying it with Industrial Activity.

Cancer is not cured by doing research on cancer, It is cured by not contaminating air, water and soil with billions of tonnes of Solid, Liquid and Gaseous Industrial Carcinogens.

Obesity is not cured by doing research on obesity, It is cured by not overeating and overstuffing the markets and restaurants with billions of tonnes of ready made food and snacks produced by Industrial Activity and made available 24x7, 365 days of the year.

Peace cannot be brought by thousands of Peace Organizations and millions of Peace Activists....It can only come when Military Industrial Complex stops producing and supplying billions of tonnes of weapons all over the world which is the source of wars, violence and internal conflicts all over the world.

.

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## osho

> .
> 
> 
> Forests are not saved by planting trees.....Forests are saved by not cutting trees.
> 
> 
> .


I like the quote. I am repeating: what is to be done? Who can take the initiative? A few activists like Noam Chomsky and Arundhoty who are voicing against hegemonic capitalists are singled out and unsupported. The zeitgeist movement is a temporary flame and I think that too will be extinguished in a while.

Think through solutions, my friend. I second your thoughts.

Tell me and the rest here what we can do? You have diagnosed the disease. Now try to come up with healing antidotes.

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## Darcy88

> I like the quote. I am repeating: what is to be done? Who can take the initiative? A few activists like Noam Chomsky and Arundhoty who are voicing against hegemonic capitalists are singled out and unsupported. The zeitgeist movement is a temporary flame and I think that too will be extinguished in a while.
> 
> Think through solutions, my friend. I second your thoughts.
> 
> Tell me and the rest here what we can do? You have diagnosed the disease. Now try to come up with healing antidotes.


It is too late. Instead of summoning a second cataclysmic global flood this time God is just letting us spin arrogantly and destructively out of control, sowing the seeds of our own demise. The pathetic thing is that we know there is a big problem but we just sit back and do nothing. I now affirm the future horror. I believe that our inaction is a symptom of our very humanity and that we should go out inveterately, stupidly, gloriously human.

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## Pen Name

Super, Fab, 

you are still wrong and still ranting, even when you change the argument.

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## papillondemai

sushil:

Interesting theory but the experiments you propose will not prove your hypotheses. Maybe people become artists because they have more of what is called "emotion" to begin with. What you need is one of those complex experiments which tests people at different stages of their lives. Also running the video at different speeds won't work. Probably the way to do it is to show the video at normal speeds but to stop it for varying lengths of time at critical points in the imagery. But how will you know the difference between a scientist and a sociopath? Time will tell?

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## SFG75

The unabomber should sue for plagiarism of his material.

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## biblophile

I agree by and large with our luddite friend's article. I think we pay a hefty price for a high standard of living, it dose in some ways stunt our ability to feel. mass culture dose alienate the individual. Whether or not we can know when to stop before we reach our mutual destruction is a question the future will answer. I am not holding my breath.
as far as physical labor being more emotionally rewarding, well I have done that kind of work and found it just as oppressive as working on an assembly line.

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## Vota

I think some people are being critical or hostile to it because any intelligent person will quickly realize, within the first page, that it is utter crap, whether the intention is good or not.

There is no way I am going to waste time dismantling this piece line by line, but the within the opening lines a statement is made - "The article examines why Writers, Poets and Artists experience more emotion than other people." That is completely subjective, and downright stupid, as it can in no way be proven.

Many people feel emotion deeply, but are not gifted artistically. Do not conflate emotion with talent or genius.

This one line set off a major red flag, and was only confirmed with another line close by - "Subject : A thinking mind cannot feel." I don't know about you, but when I'm calm or in a positive mood I tend to think better, and when I'm angry I tend to have a harder time thinking. Being angry and being happy are both emotional states. One is conducive to thinking, the other is generally not, although there are exceptions. In either case, thinking is possible while feeling, and vice versa. It is possible for thinking to produce emotional responses, and in fact, reading for pleasure is a fine example of this, as even reading for entertainment requires a certain level of thinking. 

You claim intelligence is evil and a curse, but without it humans would be no better off than beasts, and even you must admit that humans require a certain level of intelligence to take care of their basic needs. Where is the IQ ceiling? Should everyone have an IQ of 60 or 70? Without intelligence we wouldn't have modern medicine. We wouldn't have the electric light bulb or refrigeration. Even neanderthals and primitive hunter gatherers had a certain degree of intelligence which allowed them to adapt to their environment, and master it, in order to secure the comfort and safety of themselves and their families/tribes. In order to to have agriculture you must first have the requisite intelligence to create it. It didn't just happen overnight. People got smarter and learned, and due to many factors, intelligence increased, though I suspect the average intelligence of people today isn't much if any higher than peoples' from 2500 years ago - the difference being that more people have access to education today. 

I could go on and on, but I won't bother because it isn't worth the time.

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## YesNo

> There is no way I am going to waste time dismantling this piece line by line, but the within the opening lines a statement is made - "The article examines why Writers, Poets and Artists experience more emotion than other people." That is completely subjective, and downright stupid, as it can in no way be proven.


On the face of it that does sound like nonsense. I wonder what "more emotion" means? There should be a way to measure it so that it can be compared. Writers use their subjectivity to create writings. Readers use their subjectivity to read.

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## Pompey Bum

This is quite an archaeological find, Vota--surely a steaming pile of crap in 2006 if a mere desiccated turd today. The author's point seems to be that rational thought is wrong because it interferes with his or her fantasies, and that time will bear out this eternal truth. A memorable nugget:




> Stop Education.....Close Down Universities.
> 
> Stop Urban Work.....Close Down the Cities.
> 
> Do it Now.
> 
> A few years later would be too late.


A decade has now passed, and while a great many urban jobs were lost in the interim, that only increased human suffering. Education was not stopped, although many universities became sinkholes of the very hyperemotionality Sushil was pushing. I imagine...he or she...was merely confused...about punctuation...and Especially Capitalization...and intuitively felt...that environmental degradation must somehow be to blame. Stopping education would have been one way to affirm this: as Sushil says elsewhere, "thinking minds cannot feel." Surely learning to write English correctly would only have worsened things...or will only...would and will are so confusing...ABANDON THE CITIES!

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## Vota

LMFAO.

I clearly was not paying attention to the date of the original post.

Desiccated turd for sure!

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