# Reading > Poems, Poets, and Poetry >  Rap music is poetry

## Munro

I read an interesting article the other day revolving around the idea that Rap music is the modern-day poetry. Studies have shown that some of the high quality rhymes of Rap music (I'm talking NWA, Tupac and Eminem here, not the softer, mainstream RnB stuff) have been successful in getting youth more interested in using language as an artistic outlet, and lyrics are now used in the US high school English course. 
Considering the fact that these rhymes can often be clever, entertaining and often comments on society's ills, namely the squalid living conditions and situation of black people in America, does everyone agree that Rap is poetry, and that Rap is art?

----------


## Koa

Personally i think that songs, lyrics, ARE poetry. The music i like often inspires me more than the 'true' poetry. But of course, it has to be quality stuff, not that kind of songs to dance to whose lyrics hardly make sense... I'm not into rap music, but i'm sure that, if those lyrics make some sense, it's great that they can make people interested in the art of expressing yourself through words, rhymes etc.

----------


## Admin

I wouldn't call this new.

Take some old Pink Floyd... thats poetry. Pearl Jam lyrics are full of symbolism. Then there are the obvious ones like Jewel.

----------


## imthefoolonthehill

Munroe... I disagree. :-D 

Music is music, rap is rap, and poetry is poetry. modern-day poetry is written and read, not written and sung/talked/whatever.

The main difference in my opinion is this: Rap 'artists' and song-writers write mainly on a basis of how long it takes to say a word, whereas poets mainly base it off the sound, ending, and syllabels.

----------


## Shea

It might be poetry to some, I've never paid attention to the lyrics. I can never get past that AWFUL thumpity bump!! I hate being forced to listen to those horrible car sterioes just because I'm in the vicinity! :evil: 

Sorry, I lived next to a 24 hour gas station for 3 years, and after being woken up at 2 AM one too many times, I'm still pretty bitter. :x

----------


## imthefoolonthehill

Is it just me or do people who listen to new rock (80-2000) (anyone like my definition of 'new rock'?) tend to play much much louder than people who listen to other styles of music?

----------


## Shea

I would have to say yes. At least where I'm from. It must have something to do with all those clubs and parties that the people who listen to that style of music tend to go to. I never really got into that sort of thing.

On the other hand, my grandfather used to listen to classical music really loud. I never minded because that's my favorite style, but my sister couldn't stand it. I never figured out if it was just because he was just starting to lose his hearing at the time, or if he wanted to hear every instrument (he wasn't very sociable  :Rolleyes:  ). I never listen to it that loud anyway, execept when one of those annoying cars pulls up along side me and I have to turn it up to hear it at all. :x

----------


## Koa

Well i see 2 diffrent opinions about music here... I still am on the other side: i find it harder to pay attention to the music than to the lyrics. I often fall in love with some music just because of the words. Words, that's what matters to me. Of course i understand that people disagree, i was just saying how strongly i believe in the poetry of songs  :Smile: 

As for loud music...I think that playing it too loud ruins music... many times i've been told by friends 'how can you listen to this like that? this is Not listening!' just because i don't play it loud... Sometimes i try on summer days because i want the nieghbours to hear what wonderful music i listen to  :Wink:  (and to annoy them  :Wink: ) but i never resist more than 10 seconds, so i keep my music for myself  :Biggrin:

----------


## Arteum

Of course, rap is some kind of art because it involves creativity and the created object. All the purposes of an artist are accomplished in rap:

1. To describe the outer world (his simplest purpose)
2. To express his feelings about the outer world 
3. To express his feelings about himself

The question is how well a rap-singer accomplishes these three purposes, say in comparison with other artists, such as other musicians, writers, painters, hair-stylists etc.

Admin, I believe that the lyrics of Pink Floyd's "The Wall" is extremely artistic. I thought of it from 14 y.o. until now (24 y.o.) and it always seemed to me so emotional, pithy, profound in meaning (although I was changing my understanding of R. Waters' poetry as I was growing) that no other band's lyrics was anywhere close to Pink Floyd.

But actually I'm saying that not only about "The Wall". I know every note and every word in their other albums. I would also classify "The Dark Side of The Moon", "Wish You Were Here", "The Animals" and "The Final Cut" as extremely poetic.

I think understand much less in Barret's Pink Floyd, but I still like it very much.

----------


## imthefoolonthehill

I think that rap is art, but not poetry.

----------


## Munro

Rap lyrics have rhythm, imagery, meaning as well as a basis around themes and issues that trouble the rapper, or lyric writer. A lot of poetry doesn't become effective or brilliant until it is read out aloud to oneself, because only then do you feel the rhythm of the words, and the flow of the lines. Therefore poetry is an oral art as well, not just something to sit down and read, but to say aloud. Shakepeare's poetry sounds better when said aloud, as his plays are better to watch than to read, right?
If poetry is an oral art, like Rap, then why isn't Rap to be considered the poetry "straight outta Compton, LA"?

----------


## Honest-Boy

I agree with you!

----------


## NATAS_miss_understood

i agree. Orignally poetry wasn't written. It was spoken. So Rap is kind of like reverting to the way poetry was originally presented. Rappers are continuing the legacy of the spoken word poets of the past. Actually if you think about it, all rap and music is poetry. In my humble opinion, rap and music lyrics are the purest form of poetry because they are performing poetry the way it was orginally supposed to be performed. The Iliad (for example) was orginally sung, and only later put into written form. 

~I am NATAS!

----------


## tjg1098

Rap could be considered a form of art, although a very vulgar, crude, and disgusting form. There are very few kinds of music I won't listen to...heavy metal and rap are about it. The lyrics could be considered a form of poetry, but in my view, there is NO way Eminem's rap could compete with the works of any semi-good poet, let alone ones like Milton or Shakespeare.

I agree with Admin about the older, better music. Stairway to Heaven, Bohemian Rhapsody, American Pie...I wouldn't mind saying those in the same sentence with Dante. But noone writes songs like those anymore, and few listen to them. Instead, we get to put up with crap like Eminem...I'd much rather hear Eric Clapton, thank you.

In conclusion, I'd just like to say that rap, while technically poetry, is so base that it's almost like comparing a burger and fries to a sirloin and baked potato.

----------


## imthefoolonthehill

*shrugs* I haven't really been much a fan of poetry OR rap... I just haven't really read much that has connected with me like poetry is probably supposed to. Whatever we call rap, I still find it obnoxious... sometimes even revolting... and I am a stubborn person... I still won't call it poetry


Tjg1098- I wonder if the enw generation will be saying the same thing, except calling Eminem much better than any of those "new fangled hippies" :-D

----------


## orangecafe2046

rap is like an informal essay....but poetry is more rigorous...  :Rolleyes:

----------


## suitenoise314

what makes anyone think they can say rap is or isnt poetry?

----------


## Munro

It's a discussion... People have opinions... You could ask that question in relation to most things that are discussed in the forums, I guess.

----------


## AbdoRinbo

> Munroe... I disagree. :-D 
> 
> Music is music, rap is rap, and poetry is poetry. modern-day poetry is written and read, not written and sung/talked/whatever.
> 
> The main difference in my opinion is this: Rap 'artists' and song-writers write mainly on a basis of how long it takes to say a word, whereas poets mainly base it off the sound, ending, and syllabels.


Erm . . . heh . . . you are aware that the first poets were traveling bards who sang their epic poems? The conjoining of music and verse is older than written poetry (it wasn't until the printing press was revealed in France that published poetry became a European phenomenon). Rap and Hip Hop (along with all of the other genres out there that contain artistic fiber) _is_ poetry. Don't discredit singers and songwriters, they most certainly focus on the assonance of a word . . . Eminem is quintessential of this example.

----------


## alatar

i believe that some rap, while obnoxious, is not any more annoying than some poetry. some modern poets really get on my nerves, their poems make less sense than most modern day music. some poets are even as graphic and base as most rap music. i think that anything that is trying to get its point across, by means of music or rhyme or diction or whatever, could be considered poetry. i think the only requisite for whether something is poetry or not, no matter how beautiful or ugly, is that it makes a point and does so through some sort of sound, word, or even physical device. 

by the by, wasn't the printing press introduced into europe via germany? i believe the first book ever printed was the guttenburg bible...

----------


## Koa

> by the by, wasn't the printing press introduced into europe via germany? i believe the first book ever printed was the guttenburg bible...


what does it have to do with music?  :Wink: 
want a lecture about it? i did a whole exam about that kind of thing...*sighs*

----------


## AbdoRinbo

> by the by, wasn't the printing press introduced into europe via germany? i believe the first book ever printed was the guttenburg bible...


Strasbourg was part of Germany before WWII . . . now it is part of the Alsace region in France. The inventor of the printing press was from there, but I am not sure whether it was considered Germany or France at that time . . . regardless, Alsace and Lorraine is full of Germans speaking French and across the Rhine in the city of Kehl are a lot of Frenchies speaking German.

By the way, who says a poem has to make a 'point'? Some poetry is purely self-indulgent, or--more often--it is simply un-realistic. I think the only obligation we can hold to poetry or literature is that it be interesting.

----------


## the9crow

as a writer of poetry on all issues of life how can i not agree with you all.
Poetry has been an effective popular
genre for aeons. The ancient Greeks
called poets ( singer of songs ) for
they used a string instrument called
a lyre to accompany their poetry.
They where also very respected,
the Anglo Saxon poets used a string
instrument named a lute.
For many century's the crown has appointed
a poet Lauret.
They were paid a stipend of 70 pounds a year,
long ago a handsome sum. Today it wouldn't buy
writing materials.
Originally once appointed it was for life,
this is not the case today, since the Yorkshire
poet Lauret Ted Hughes died.

----------


## Phoenix_Tears

i believe fully that rap music is poetry. my favourite most inspiring band is Linkin Park. it just flows so well and the words really speak to you. after listening to linkin park i can spout off poetry like theres no tomorrow, it is awesome. theres my answer.
_Phoen-X_

----------


## Vronaqueen

Yes, some rap music is annoying, but so are some poems. No one likes hearing limerics any more because they are vulgar and cheap--but they're still poetry. Shakespeare himself wrote in so many baudy jokes within his plays and they still retain a poetic quality. 

And poetry is meant to be spoken. You get a greater understanding of a poem it is better to read it OUT LOUD. It are the readings that make poetry riveting, not sitting quietly thumbing through the pages. I don't know about the rest of the country but in Southern California there is a growing interest in poetry slams--modern equivolents of beatnik bars of the 50s. Young people get together and express themselves with beautiful words. And poetry slams are often affilliated with rap music. That's got to say something about it's value

----------


## Munro

There once was a man from Nantucket...not really though. I don't like dirty limericks either, not because I'm prudish (far from it) but I just don't find them funny.The poetry slams sound great, nothing like that in Sydney. The only places I get to talk about poems is with a friend at school who shares an interest, and here, just about. Maybe at university there'll be more people interested *sigh*.

The only problem I have with Rap being poetry (I know I started the argument for this motion in the first place, but :Smile:  is that I fear that so much of it is fabricated, fake, plastic lyrics feigning deep emotions about love, hate and life as a gangster or whatever. Eminem, while he may have been angry and had a lot to write about for his first two albums, is rich and famous now, and constantly under accusation of writing untrue lyrics (what can he be angry about now?) With his wealth and media pressure he most likely has turned to this. 

Artists like Ja Rule rap about their lives in the streets etc. when in fact they enjoyed wealthy, stable childhoods in middle-class suburbia. What I'm trying to say is, record companies too easily create a Rap artist supposedly talking about real things at their morning board meetings. Rap may be poetry, but it's unfortauntely a form of art that has at a young age been seized upon by a hungry commercial industry.

----------


## den

To decide what is poetry and what isn't ? I think, is all pretty subjective and a matter of having an open mind. Some things in life are only acceptible after they've stood the test of time and we've become desensitised to it. Or we've just moved on to be distracted enough with something else we forget about it.  :Biggrin:  

I didn't like classical baroque music when I was younger, it wasn't `cool' to like it, but now I love it and don't care what people think of it/me.  :Wink: 

While I don't _appreciate_ rap, as in, it doesn't `turn me on' and I'd probably never go buy any, it's the sincere intent and creative drive behind it that I admire. 

Sometimes the medium is stronger than the art. I love studying architecture, but I just can't get past the use of red bricks.

----------


## den

Oh, and more about `poets' and `poetry' in music... indeed there are many wonderful artists/storytellers/poets, IMO, who use some of the more classical elements to express themselves in their `art' of making music, even though it is deemed `contemporary'. 

Robbie Robertson
Gordon Sumner
Eddie Vedder
David Sylvian
Roger Waters/David Gilmour
Adrian Belew
Jeff Buckley
Neil Finn
Chris Tait
Micheal Hedges
Trent Reznor
Tom Cochrane

To name a few... :oops:  :Wink:

----------


## AbdoRinbo

Eminem grew up down the street from me. If you lived where he did, you'd probably be as base and vulgar as he must seem to you. At least he was willing to betray his race to a form of art that he admired.

----------


## AbdoRinbo

OK, Robbie Robertson is the newest addition to my list of really ****ing stupid names.

So far I've got:

Eric Erikson
Neal Nielson
James Jello
Darcie Saflarski
Mathus Matheson
Fred Fist (or maybe I'm the only one that thinks that's funny . . .)
Ida Anatopulos (when spoken it out loud, it sounds like 'Anatopless')
And several more that I can't think of off the top of my head . . .




> Roger Waters/David Gilmour


Are you one of those radical Pink Floyd fans who goes around wearing a poncho, telling people about last night's acid flashback?

----------


## den

Hmmmmmmmm in the big picture? 

No. 





> Roger Waters/David Gilmour
> 
> 
> Are you one of those radical Pink Floyd fans who goes around wearing a poncho, telling people about last night's acid flashback?

----------


## AbdoRinbo

What a picture, too. Probably something along the lines of a Salvador Dali painting--with melting walls and multicolored flipper babies hatching from little eggs that were laid and incubated by a giant, incandescent butterfly that came swoopin' down from the sky.

----------


## Shea

> i believe that some rap, while obnoxious, is not any more annoying than some poetry. some modern poets really get on my nerves, their poems make less sense than most modern day music. some poets are even as graphic and base as most rap music. i think that anything that is trying to get its point across, by means of music or rhyme or diction or whatever, could be considered poetry. i think the only requisite for whether something is poetry or not, no matter how beautiful or ugly, is that it makes a point and does so through some sort of sound, word, or even physical device.





> By the way, who says a poem has to make a 'point'? Some poetry is purely self-indulgent, or--more often--it is simply un-realistic. I think the only obligation we can hold to poetry or literature is that it be interesting.


Oddly enough, I agree with both here. Personally, I can't stand rap, but if it interests some people, hey, so be it. To me, the biggest problem I have with it is where it is listened to. I hate to be forced to listen to it at all, but when I see a young couple with a todler and an infant pull up next to my car and the base is so loud that it hurts my own ears, that is when it becomes idiotic.

Same thing with graphic poetry. I was at a coffeehouse where they had an open mic night. This was a new inocent fun thing that some of the students at the nearby college liked to participate in. But I was disgusted when a guy got up to read (or rather shout) a poem that I'm sure he put a lot of "soul" into, but had tons of obsenities and suggestiveness, that resulted in a lot of red faces. The owner of the coffeehouse nearly kicked him out due to the fact that his 8-year-old daughter and several other childeren were in the audience. (he obviously picked the wrong kind of open mic.)

Because of all the exploitation, I wonder if people are starting to become desensitized to who their audience actually is. :-?

----------


## AbdoRinbo

'Don't quote me, boy, I ain't said ****.' -- NWA, ' Boyz N Da Hood'

----------


## putty

In all the discussion I have read, I still wonder what the discussers have in mind when they use the word "poetry."

----------


## Munro

> Because of all the exploitation, I wonder if people are starting to become desensitized to who their audience actually is. :-?


Why should they care who their audience is? Part of what makes art so great is its ability to shock people and bring them to knew realities, and confront them with things they wouldn't have wanted to or dared to have thought of before. 

As long as it is appropriate at the time (and the coffee-house may not have been the right place, but why are kids listening to adult poetry? Do they like coffee?), poetry should be able be rude, as long as it isn't crass and distasteful (his may have been? I don't know.)

My Drama class went to see a play called _Holy Day_ in the city the other week, and most of the class were appalled and offended that in the play (we didn't see it) a boy was raped, a girl was raped, and their tongues were cut out throughout the play. It wasn't vulgar, but it was confronting. I found it even more confronting that these soft babies didn't want to open their eyes and narrow minds to some reality, and some of the uglier parts of our world.

----------


## putty

But what is poetry?

----------


## Shea

> Why should they care who their audience is? Part of what makes art so great is its ability to shock people and bring them to knew realities, and confront them with things they wouldn't have wanted to or dared to have thought of before. 
> 
> As long as it is appropriate at the time (and the coffee-house may not have been the right place, but why are kids listening to adult poetry? Do they like coffee?), poetry should be able be rude, as long as it isn't crass and distasteful (his may have been? I don't know.)


The trouble is, I see so many instances when this form of poetry, whether spoken or in rap, is used at inappropriate times and no one around who is younger than 30 or 40 (other than myself) seems to care. I don't want to be the audience, but sometimes I have no choice. I think that I might have already mentioned this about being woken up at three in the morning by some moron letting his base boom next door at the gas station. This was not a heavily urban area and there are definately more appropriate places to go instead of thundering through a neighborhood at all hours of the day and night. 

I really don't care what the lyrics say, I'm not interested at all. But I do care about a right to live in peace and for the children of these young couples who will have ruptured ear drums before they reach kindergarten.

Oh, and the kids were at the coffeehouse because their parents would bring them with them because they knew that the open mic was generally safe (otherwise the owner would have posted a sign and I wouldn't have been there either). A lot of people would get up to play guitar and sing, sometimes original songs. I guess that was the draw for the children.

----------


## Munro

So, rap music is a scourge on the neighbourhood? It only belongs in the big urbanised city, where it came from and where it relates to? 
I'll try and avoid making this turn into a conversation about whether or not rap music is good listening or if it's too rude, because its artistic value to me is unquestionable whether you find it too loud, too obnoxious or whatever. 

Oh, and here's my definition of poetry, putty, although you might want to consider opening a completely different topic in this forum called "What is Poetry?" because people could spend time arguing over its meaning and definition forever. Poetry is (technically) a rhythmical composition of words used to express thoughts, feelings, and ideas. Words organised into verses. 
Aside from the technical definiton, what poetry means, and it's relevance is up to you to define. Rap music, as I've said before, has words, thoughts and ideas organised into verse and rhythm supported by loud beats. It is relevant to Western society because of the experiences it expresses in its lyrics.

----------


## AbdoRinbo

Putty, why don't you tell us what poetry _really is_ (we're all dying to know).

----------


## Shea

Actually, when I talked about how the area was not heavily urbanized, I meant that they should have gone out in to the rural areas where no one was around. (I guess that's what I should have said.)

----------


## AbdoRinbo

Or they could just die and go to Hell.

----------


## Shea

Whatever. When it was suggested that they go into more rural areas, they whined like a bunch of toddlers about how that would ruin their tires because they were set low. Well, ya paid 3,000 dollars for the dumb stereo, why don't you fix your tires? (That was from the big noise ordinance debate for our town.) 

Why should the rest of us live in misery? This is not a religious issue about banning any kind of art. This is ethics. Just as they have a right to display their art to those who are interested, I also have my right not to participate in it. But there are too many times when my right is violated.

----------


## AbdoRinbo

Well they're damned anyway, right? Let them have a little fun while they still can.

----------


## Shea

> This is not a religious issue about banning any kind of art. This is ethics.

----------


## putty

One book I have entitled "A Handbook to Literatire" quotes 21 definitions of poetry by poets themselves. My question on the board was a challenge to the persons who flippantly and offhandedly say this or that is poetry and never make clear why they think it is so. They don't seem to begin with a premise or tell us why what they are saying is poetry is poetry. What are their criteria? Many of the participants seem to be leading from a vague emotional response to words and phrases without knowing anything else of what constitutes poetry.

----------


## AbdoRinbo

None of us are defining what rap music is either, but you don't seem to care too much about that (for whatever reason). But you know what I think the problem here really is? 

On second thought, nevermind.

----------


## Ickmeister

Toby Mac and DC Talk... Listen.

----------

