# Reading > General Literature >  The Ideal Male Character

## Lovisa

Hello all! 

In my literature class we discuss characterization a lot, and it 's very interesting to observe how different the opinions of the men and the women are. For instance, we are currently reading Hamlet, and the prince is highly admired by the men and disapproved by the women. We feel sympathy or pity for Ophelia but the guys seem to despise her for some inconceivable reason  :Tongue:  

Then we read Ivanhoe in another class, and we realized that the only "flawless" character in that book was Rebecca. Rowena could also be considered a flawless character, but she wasn't as endearing to us as the Jewess. Then we realized that there were no male versions of Rebecca in Ivanhoe, or any other novel for that matter. There must be someone, but we've all been thinking and couldn't come up with one. So, can anyone please help us?  :Wink:

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## Goozfraba

Myshkin in The Idiot is pretty flawless, but not as interesting to me as the women of that novel, who are petulant and kind of nuts. 

Palamon is another, from Chaucer's Knight's Tale.

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## amalia1985

I would vote for Captain Wentworth from Jane Austen's "Persuasion", especially because of his gallantry and deepest loyalty.

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## Scheherazade

Atticus Finch from _To Kill a Mockingbird_.

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## aeroport

Ralph Touchett from _The Portrait of a Lady_.
Perhaps Ishmael from _Moby-Dick_.

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## amalia1985

> Ralph Touchett from _The Portrait of a Lady_.
> Perhaps Ishmael from _Moby-Dick_.



 :Thumbs Up:   :Thumbs Up:   :Thumbs Up:  
Ralph is such a fascinating character!! :Thumbs Up:   :Thumbs Up:

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## Splendour

> I would vote for Captain Wentworth from Jane Austen's "Persuasion", especially because of his gallantry and deepest loyalty.


haha......raising two hands in agreement.

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## PeterL

> In my literature class we discuss characterization a lot, and it 's very interesting to observe how different the opinions of the men and the women are. For instance, we are currently reading Hamlet, and the prince is highly admired by the men and disapproved by the women. We feel sympathy or pity for Ophelia but the guys seem to despise her for some inconceivable reason  
> 
> Then we read Ivanhoe in another class, and we realized that the only "flawless" character in that book was Rebecca. Rowena could also be considered a flawless character, but she wasn't as endearing to us as the Jewess. Then we realized that there were no male versions of Rebecca in Ivanhoe, or any other novel for that matter. There must be someone, but we've all been thinking and couldn't come up with one. So, can anyone please help us?


What would make a character "flawless"? I read this thread earlier, and it has been bothering me. I agree that Rebecca was a fine character and a good representation of a fine woman; but was she "flawless"? 

Ophelia committed suicide for no good reason; for that reason she was not admirable.

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## sir orange

I would say Aragorn from "The Lord of the Rings", or the unnamed main character from Luther Blissett's Q. Lemuel Gulliver is very good as well

I believe we are talking about full round, coherent characters, who represent a good archetype of hero.

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## SnowQueen189

> Ophelia committed suicide for no good reason; for that reason she was not admirable.


ophelia committed suicide for several very good reasons:

1) she was constantly being pressured to be perfect by several characters, but mostly polonius...he wanted her to be the perfect daughter so she could be a disposable pawn in his quest for power

2) the man she loved quite publically humiliated and betrayed her after she was made to believe that he returned her affections

3) the pressure of all that was happening made her lose her wits...when she died, there is no real debate that she was not completely sane


anyway, i find this to be a very interesting topic because when people read literature for pleasure, we generally want to connect with the characters and, as none of us are flawless, why would we want to read about people who are perfect? every character has a flaw...it's just a matter of finding it...and whether or not the author wants it to be a main focal point or something subtle that shapes the reasons why the characters are the way they are...

but to be fair, i have never read _ivanhoe_, so i do not know if she is indeed flawless...

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## PabloQ

Second the notion on Atticus Finch




> Ralph is such a fascinating character!!


Fascinating yes, flawless, no. I blame him for not telling Isabel what she was getting to when she got married, but a very fascinating fellow in deed. I like Lambert Strether in the Ambassadors as well, but he's got some flaws -- lack of backbone for instance.

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## mayneverhave

yeah, really. define "ideal"

As Goozfraba said, Myshkin, the protagonist of Dostoevsky's "The Idiot" is pretty flawless, possessing no "evil" characteristics, a child like naivety, which is definitely more of a detriment to his character than a strength.

Hamlet may be the most "ideal" character of all literature, if by ideal, you mean complex and "round". He is by no means flawless, possessing many admirable and dispicable traits, all the while remaining highly ambigious and complex. His penchant for introspection and his overwhelming genius doesn't necessarily make him the archetype hero, however, as this causes him to delay in action.

Satan (Paradise Lost) also is a complex and round character.

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## biscuits

> ophelia committed suicide for several very good reasons:
> 
> 1) she was constantly being pressured to be perfect by several characters, but mostly polonius...he wanted her to be the perfect daughter so she could be a disposable pawn in his quest for power
> 
> 2) the man she loved quite publically humiliated and betrayed her after she was made to believe that he returned her affections
> 
> 3) the pressure of all that was happening made her lose her wits...when she died, there is no real debate that she was not completely sane



i absolutely agree. about the third argumanet- i she is the one sane character in the play. while Hamlet falls into a self-destruction pattern, his uncle kills the king and marries the queen, and the servants are magalomaniacs that are driven by nothnig but their own selfish needs Ophelia is the only one that plays the fairytale princess. eventually, her refusal to take part in the foul ways of the court, she dies. 
actually, her death enables her to stay that young, pure maiden. she'll never grow old and corrupt, like Hamlet's mother, whose place she was supposed to take, one day. 

the ideal male charecter- what about prince Andrei, from "war and peace"?

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## Taliesin

Wait until they write our biography.

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## Kafka's Crow

Alyosha Karamazov and his opposite, Ivan. These two Karamazov boys are simply splendid in their respective roles. I admire Horatio's honesty and faithfulness in _Hamlet_.

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## PeterL

> I believe we are talking about full round, coherent characters, who represent a good archetype of hero.


OK, and what might a "good archetype of hero" be? I can think of several fully round, coherent characters who represent some of the best of what men can be. Does that mean that Harry Flashman was an ideal male character? Or Nicholas van Rijn? The problem that I have with this idea is that archetypes are by their nature flat characters. For a character to be truly round, there have to be inconsistencies, Idiosyncrases, or something to make the character seem like a real person.




> ophelia committed suicide for several very good reasons:
> 
> 1) she was constantly being pressured to be perfect by several characters, but mostly polonius...he wanted her to be the perfect daughter so she could be a disposable pawn in his quest for power
> 
> 2) the man she loved quite publically humiliated and betrayed her after she was made to believe that he returned her affections
> 
> 3) the pressure of all that was happening made her lose her wits...when she died, there is no real debate that she was not completely sane.


Even if suicide were admirable behavior, those aren't very good reasons for suicide.




> anyway, i find this to be a very interesting topic because when people read literature for pleasure, we generally want to connect with the characters and, as none of us are flawless, why would we want to read about people who are perfect? every character has a flaw...it's just a matter of finding it...and whether or not the author wants it to be a main focal point or something subtle that shapes the reasons why the characters are the way they are...


I agree. The flaws in some characters is their lack of normal human Idiosyncrases. Twain, for one, created characters that seemed human; they had flaws along with their good characteristics.

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## Virgil

> There must be someone, but we've all been thinking and couldn't come up with one. So, can anyone please help us?


I guess it depends on your definition of flawless. How about Don Juan?  :Biggrin:

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## PeterL

> I guess it depends on your definition of flawless. How about Don Juan?


That is a male ideal.

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## amalia1985

> haha......raising two hands in agreement.



 :Wink:   :Wink:   :Wink: 




> Fascinating yes, flawless, no. I blame him for not telling Isabel what she was getting to when she got married, but a very fascinating fellow in deed. I like Lambert Strether in the Ambassadors as well, but he's got some flaws -- lack of backbone for instance.


 :Thumbs Up:   :Thumbs Up:  I agree with you. By the way, Count Osvald must be one of the worst male characters ever!!! I trully hate him... :Flare:   :Flare:

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## SnowQueen189

> Even if suicide were admirable behavior, those aren't very good reasons for suicide.


i never claimed that suicide was a form of admirable behavior, but it is a reality that it happens with startling regularity. it's not like ophelia just woke up one day and thought to herself "you know what? i think i'll drown myself today!"

if ever there were a reason for suicide to be applicable, the world turning against you seems as good as any...and yes, i know how that sounds, but just think about it for a moment.

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## Dark Star

> Even if suicide were admirable behavior, those aren't very good reasons for suicide.


This begs the question; what are good reasons for suicide?

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## Simao

> i absolutely agree. about the third argumanet- i she is the one sane character in the play. while Hamlet falls into a self-destruction pattern, his uncle kills the king and marries the queen, and the servants are magalomaniacs that are driven by nothnig but their own selfish needs Ophelia is the only one that plays the fairytale princess. eventually, her refusal to take part in the foul ways of the court, she dies. 
> actually, her death enables her to stay that young, pure maiden. she'll never grow old and corrupt, like Hamlet's mother, whose place she was supposed to take, one day. 
> 
> the ideal male charecter- what about prince Andrei, from "war and peace"?


I don't think that prince Andrey was flawless. He didn't have love for his wife whose when died said "What have you done to me" or something similar so clearly there was something wrong between the two and from my reading (I read it a while back) he was confused whether he loves her for HER or he loves the duties and the commitment of the marriage life and I think that is a flaw when you don't know your feelings and you still go on to do the same thing (in this case being married to his wife and not telling her what he feels).. 
Since you mentioned War and Peace, I think that the prince's father possesses the Ideal Male Character attributes. For some reason I thought he was perfect and that every character should look up to him and try to get his experience in life but maybe that was because of the age and nothing more.

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## bazarov

> This begs the question; what are good reasons for suicide?


There are no such reasons.

Ivan Karamazov, Levin, Onegin and Bazarov.

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## sir orange

For PeterL
Well, just think about Kean Valjean, from Hugo's "The Miserables".

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## Patience

The quiet moody yet romantic men such as Mr.Rochester from Jane Eyre, Mr.Darcy from Pride and Prejudice, Colonel Brandon from Sense and Sensibility and Aragorn. Definitely the most interesting and appealing!

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## Lulim

> The quiet moody yet romantic men such as Mr.Rochester from Jane Eyre, Mr.Darcy from Pride and Prejudice, Colonel Brandon from Sense and Sensibility and Aragorn. Definitely the most interesting and appealing!


I quite aqgree — just let's add Will Ladislaw from Middlemarch.

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## PeterL

> This begs the question; what are good reasons for suicide?


Are there any good reasons for suicide? I think not, unless one calls stopping medication for an extremely ill person suicide. I plan to explore that question in a short story.

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## byquist

Philip, the hunchback, in George Elliot's "The Mill on the Floss" has virtue. Slight and petty faults here and there, but overall a cut above general men.

Pierre in George Sand's "Marianne" is also a unique char.

Neither of the above are the Sir. Lancelot-types nor perfect, but have nobility nonetheless.

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## biscuits

> I don't think that prince Andrey was flawless. He didn't have love for his wife whose when died said "What have you done to me" or something similar so clearly there was something wrong between the two and from my reading (I read it a while back) he was confused whether he loves her for HER or he loves the duties and the commitment of the marriage life and I think that is a flaw when you don't know your feelings and you still go on to do the same thing (in this case being married to his wife and not telling her what he feels).. 
> Since you mentioned War and Peace, I think that the prince's father possesses the Ideal Male Character attributes. For some reason I thought he was perfect and that every character should look up to him and try to get his experience in life but maybe that was because of the age and nothing more.


Flawless isn't my defenition of ideal. Flawless characters are flat and boring. The prince has flaws, but he is as close to perfect as a realistic character can be. 
Marriage and love were two seperate things at the time, so I don't think his lack of love towards Lise is a flaw; Besides, it is implied that he used to love her, but got sick of high society that she represented, in a way. I think that when she says "What have you done to me", she's talking of getting her 
pregnant and making her undergo horrible pain in labour. He misinterpets this phrase, assuming she was talking of his coolness towards her, simply because he felt guilty of not loving her. 

I think his main flaw is his inability to accept imperfection: he detaches himself from everything that isn't perfect, though imperfection is a human trait. He joins the army in the hope of finding glory, but finds pain and sorrow; he joins politics in search of pure nobility, but finds pettiness; He wants to find the perfect woman in Natasha, but discoveres she is as human and normal as any other woman. He thinks that the presence of a single flaw outwheighs any advantage.
But as all of Tolstoy's charecter evolve, he also changes. He gradually becomes the ultimate prince charming: Tolstoy says that after returning to public life, he's considered by many to be the perfect nobleman. Finally, when he forgives Natasha, he overcomes his tendency and accepts her fully, as the imperfect woman she is. When he dies, the change is complete: death is the only way a character can become "perfect" and remain realistic. He'll never grow old, grumpy, tired; He'll never hurt Natasha. He is his adored by his son, because the child only percieves him as the noble war hero that every one loved. 

In my opinion,his father is far from perfect. He's a grumpy old man that can show his emotions and rather ruin his daughter's life so he won't have to part with her. He is selfish and childish, the kind of an old man we all wish never to become.

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## SnowQueen189

> Are there any good reasons for suicide? I think not, unless one calls stopping medication for an extremely ill person suicide. I plan to explore that question in a short story.


that's euthanasia, not suicide...

and yes, i'm sure there are good reasons for suicide...it all depends on each situation.

while suicide may not be "right" it is a personal choice...

oh! and i completely agree with colonel brandon from _sense and sensibility_...mr. darcy, though i do love him, i don't believe to be flawless...

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## Simao

> When he dies, the change is complete: death is the only way a character can become "perfect" and remain realistic. He'll never grow old, grumpy, tired; He'll never hurt Natasha. He is his adored by his son, because the child only percieves him as the noble war hero that every one loved. 
> .


He died? I don't remember that part! Maybe I should re-read it again or maybe it wasn't included in the shorter novel which I read.
I am still not convinced by this because how do you know that she specificly ment that she was complaining from labor and not from his lack of emotions towards her? I really believe she ment that. Let's look at it from another view, she was dying, and any person who feels they are they would feel pain and emotions start to come and since he was right in front of her maybe she thought that her life, an emotionless one, is coming to an end because of this husband who didn't provide the love for her. 
Because let's face it, alot of women were dying back in those days after giving birth and she probably felt that the chances are high and she expected the possibility of death so she looked to blame him for the pain he caused her emotionally and not physically.




> In my opinion,his father is far from perfect. He's a grumpy old man that can show his emotions and rather ruin his daughter's life so he won't have to part with her. He is selfish and childish, the kind of an old man we all wish never to become.


Oh you are right! I think I forgot how he treated his daughter. Man it all coming back to me now, I remember when I read when he was dying and his daughter was nursing him and feeling guilty for wanting him to die and he only keeps insulting her and belittling her even at this time. Then I am sure there was some old man in the novel that was really good. Maybe Natasha's father? Man I just can't remember ; ; and it wasn't really that long since I read it, it was like 4-5 months ago.

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## biscuits

> He died? I don't remember that part! Maybe I should re-read it again or maybe it wasn't included in the shorter novel which I read.
> I am still not convinced by this because how do you know that she specificly ment that she was complaining from labor and not from his lack of emotions towards her? I really believe she ment that.


LOL, maybe you read the other version- there is an early draft that was published a while ago, where he survives. 

I really think Lise is talking about the labor. First, she doesn't speak to Andrey specifically- she starts talking to everybody in the room, asking them what she'd done to deserve this and what they have done to her. Andrey simply barges in at the right moment. Besides, she's a childish person, and always chooses denial over facing reality. When she goes into labour, she says to Maria that it must be something she ate, because she's afraid. Even if she does realize she's dying, I think it's more likely that she becomes too hysteric to analyze her situation. 




> Maybe Natasha's father? Man I just can't remember ; ; and it wasn't really that long since I read it, it was like 4-5 months ago.


I think you're talknig about Natasha's father. He's the perfect father, definitely, though he tends to spend money he doesn't have...

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## mayneverhave

Personally, although these characters are hardly flawless, I've usually found myself drawn to the fiercely intellectual, brilliant, often melancholy characters;

like Hamlet, Ivan Karamazov, Quentin Compson, and Stephen Dedelus.

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## Simao

> Personally, although these characters are hardly flawless, I've usually found myself drawn to the fiercely intellectual, brilliant, often melancholy characters;
> 
> like Hamlet, Ivan Karamazov, Quentin Compson, and Stephen Dedelus.


yeah I am fond of Ivan Karamazov. His views and intellectual thoughts are always rich and gives me alot of time to think about the stuff he talks about. He got crazy eventually, but that is the case of most genius people lol.

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## Lovisa

True, I failed to define "ideal". But I meant more of an archetypal character, whom one can find no faults with. Maybe I'm being highly opinionated here when I say that Rebecca from "Ivanhoe" doesn't have any flaws, but I do find it hard to find faults with her. As for Ophelia, I was just commenting on the fact that the men's responses differed from the women's. To me, she is not an archetypal heroine, although I believe she deserves sympathy and understanding.

Also, for a character to fit this archetypal mold, he/she would have to be a well-developed, round character. Regardless of whether Rebecca is flawless or not, she is definitely not flat.

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## Whifflingpin

"I believe we are talking about full round, coherent characters, who represent a good archetype of hero."

I think that is the clue to the question. In classical terms, Heroes need to be flawed or else they will be guilty of hubris and an offence to the gods. An entirely different convention applies to females.

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## SirRaustusBear

I think ideal is very subjective, for instance, the ultimat guy's guy would have to be Tyler Durden from fight club. He's the guy the narrator (and in a small way every guy) would be if they could. It has a lot to do with the confidence he projects.

My ideal characters are usually conflicted intellectuals and Ivan is definately my fsvorite Karamazov as well. 

Atticus Finch is a symbol of righteousness and is certainly admirable in that way, but I don't know that I'd call him ideal.

The only ideal I can think of is Helmholtz from Brave New World, intelligent, confident, and loved by women. Plus he values freedom of thought over being admired as the pinnacle of society. Plus when you're around Bernard Marx you can't help but look good in comparison.

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## Irrylath

I'm not sure if this was mentioned or not, but one of the themes of this book is Billy's perfection. Well, until he beats that guy to death..

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## Sieglinde

Add me to Atticus Finch's fans. He's a good and rightous man in all senses, and it doesn't make him boring.

Second Billy Budd. He's so perfect you could scream Mary Sue, were it not for his stammer. He makes me all protective.

And that he killed Claggart - didn't the malicious pervert bastard deserve it? And it was more an accident than a murder. :Biggrin:

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## PoeticPassions

> Alyosha Karamazov and his opposite, Ivan. These two Karamazov boys are simply splendid in their respective roles. I admire Horatio's honesty and faithfulness in _Hamlet_.


Alyosha is a wonderful character. I fell in love with him while reading the book.

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## Tsuyoiko

Ideal as in most flawless: Prince Myshkin, Kostya Levin, Alyosha Karamazov

Ideal as in most heroic: Satan, Aragorn, King Arthur, Robin Hood, 

Ideal as in most intellectually admirable: Stephen Dedalus, Sherlock Holmes, Ivan Karamazov

Ideal as in just basically a nice guy: Leopold Bloom, Yuri Zhivago, Dmitri Karamazov, Ivan Denisovich

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## JBI

Oh, most certainly Gabriel "Farmer" Oak from Far From The Madding Crowd - he seems the most redemptive male character in literature up until his composition - even Shakespeare's characters seem imbued with a flaw of strong self-important misogyny which ultimately flaws them as being patriarchal, rather than reasonable, and perpetuates a sort of mans-man mythos that we haven't quite shaken to this day.

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## kiki1982

I raise my hands as well for Wentworth, but flawless... He almost forfeited his happiness out of 'angry pride'. Tsssssss.

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## kelby_lake

Dobbin!  :Smile: 

Atticus annoyed me.

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## JuniperWoolf

I believe that you're over-stressing the differences between male and female minds. People have a tendancy to do that. No doubt this is something that you believe, but I've sat through a lot of literature classes and havn't noticed a clear distinction between female and male character preferences (but of course, that's just my experience. In order to truly know if there was a clear, significant distinction we'd have to experiment). 

As far as the "ideal" character goes, that's obviously subjective. I like Holden Caulfield. "Perfect" characters don't exist: even if there were a character without flaws, they would be imperfect in their flawlessness because they would be flat and thus, boring. 





> Even if suicide were admirable behavior, those aren't very good reasons for suicide.


I believe that insanity is a good reason for suicide. After wading through dozens of schizophrenia cases in the last six months and reading about some of the things that they see, I have to say I think that I would be really tempted by death. Also, an insane view of reality is skewed (obviously). Suicide for an insane person does not necessarily mean the same to them as it does to us. 
Poverty is a big reason for suicide, too. Statistically, more people kill themselves because of poverty then anything else. Imagine not having enough money even to feed yourself, and not having the resources to EVER escape. I honestly believe that until you experience these things, you'll never really understand; speculation is pointless.

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## PeterL

> I believe that insanity is a good reason for suicide. After wading through dozens of schizophrenia cases in the last six months and reading about some of the things that they see, I have to say I think that I would be really tempted by death. Also, an insane view of reality is skewed (obviously). Suicide for an insane person does not necessarily mean the same to them as it does to us. 
> Poverty is a big reason for suicide, too. Statistically, more people kill themselves because of poverty then anything else. Imagine not having enough money even to feed yourself, and not having the resources to EVER escape. I honestly believe that until you experience these things, you'll never really understand; speculation is pointless.


That's fine with me, but I don't think that Ophelia was insane to a significant degree. SHe was a little mixed up. 

Your comments regarding poverty are irrelevant.

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## prendrelemick

John Ridd from Lorna Doone. Has he any flaws? 
He has moral and physical strengh, a great deal of common sense, he is faithful and steadfast. he is never cowed, OK he is not quick witted, but he confounds those who are.

The only thing he lacks is style.

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## Jeremiah Jazzz

I'd say Odysseus and with that Leopold Bloom. Horatio is a great character as well.

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## kelby_lake

> John Ridd from Lorna Doone. Has he any flaws? 
> He has moral and physical strengh, a great deal of common sense, he is faithful and steadfast. he is never cowed, OK he is not quick witted, but he confounds those who are.
> 
> The only thing he lacks is style.


Yeah, i was thinking of him too...

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## Scheherazade

> John Ridd from Lorna Doone. Has he any flaws? 
> He has moral and physical strengh, a great deal of common sense, he is faithful and steadfast. he is never cowed, OK he is not quick witted, but he confounds those who are.
> 
> The only thing he lacks is style.


iOK, I think I should re-read _Lorna Doone_ because I only remember the general storyline.

I read it on the night when my nephew was born... Waiting for a baby to be born is a tough for a 16-year-old. I finished the book as well as a big pack of pumpkin seeds.

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## jocky

There is no doubt about it, the most flawless character in English literature is Stephen Blackpool from Hard Times by Charles Dickens. Remember that immortal line '' Its all a muddle lass '' Here is Hamlet without the balls, bet your Maggie Tulliver could never have been so sensitive.

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## wat??

> Alyosha Karamazov and his opposite, Ivan. These two Karamazov boys are simply splendid in their respective roles. I admire Horatio's honesty and faithfulness in _Hamlet_.


I was going to say Alexei.  :Thumbs Up:

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## bounty

lovisa you might enjoy looking around the zane grey west society's website: www.zgws.org 




> Hello all! 
> 
> In my literature class we discuss characterization a lot, and it 's very interesting to observe how different the opinions of the men and the women are. For instance, we are currently reading Hamlet, and the prince is highly admired by the men and disapproved by the women. We feel sympathy or pity for Ophelia but the guys seem to despise her for some inconceivable reason  
> 
> Then we read Ivanhoe in another class, and we realized that the only "flawless" character in that book was Rebecca. Rowena could also be considered a flawless character, but she wasn't as endearing to us as the Jewess. Then we realized that there were no male versions of Rebecca in Ivanhoe, or any other novel for that matter. There must be someone, but we've all been thinking and couldn't come up with one. So, can anyone please help us?

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## jocky

Lovisa this could be a man thing. Obviously, a novel, or play, can be as much about the author as about the subject matter. The problem about Ophelia is that she is a bit of a blank character, what do we really know about her, apart from the fact she loves her father, brother and Hamlet? Perhaps you should take a different approach with your class and ask this question, how are women portrayed by male authors?

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## Stargazer86

> Perhaps you should take a different approach with your class and ask this question, how are women portrayed by male authors?


Or vise versa

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## bazarov

Levin and Prince Andrey. Dostoevsky's characters are too real to be ideal  :Biggrin:  Maybe Alyosha .

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## Alley

I think everyone has a different idea.

For example: bazarov mentions Prince Andrei Bolkonski; I, personaly, see very little admirable qualities in Bolkonski.
My ideal is Theodore Dolokhov (also from War and Peace). He is my idea. That does not make him flawless. 
No one is flawless, because there will always be some ppl who will find a flaw in that person/character according t their "idea"

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## PoeticPassions

Ok, so I am adding to the list (aside from Alyosha):

Gavroche from _Les Miserables_. I see him as an ideal character because of the purity of heart he possesses and compassion, though life has not treated him well at all. 

Hassan from _The Kite Runner_ is ideal in the sense that he is almost a Christ like figure. He turns the other cheek when slapped. He is (to a fault) loyal. He is forgiving. He is loving. I guess he might be too much of these things that it makes him less than ideal, but really, he is quite an amazing character.

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## *Classic*Charm*

> Levin and Prince Andrey. Dostoevsky's characters are too real to be ideal  Maybe Alyosha .


Levin?! Really?!

I don't know if I've posted in this thread before, but if not, I'm going to throw out John Proctor (after the affair obviously)

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## bazarov

> Levin?! Really?!


Why not?!

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## *Classic*Charm*

> Why not?!


He's so...wishy-washy. No conviction.

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## bazarov

> He's so...wishy-washy. No conviction.


Really? I admire his every act and word.

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## *Classic*Charm*

> Really? I admire his every act and word.


That's so interesting! I disliked the way that he wouldn't stand up for himself or the things he cared for. He just seemed very dismissive to me. The way he gave up on Kitty when she first turned him down until he knew the competition was gone; the way he kept changing his opinions of people and their actions. 

What is it about him that you admire so?

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## bazarov

> That's so interesting! I disliked the way that he wouldn't stand up for himself or the things he cared for. He just seemed very dismissive to me. The way he gave up on Kitty when she first turned him down until he knew the competition was gone; the way he kept changing his opinions of people and their actions. 
> 
> What is it about him that you admire so?


I don't know, I find him similar to me on few things. Kitty? He respected her original wish, and when chance turned he took it without hesitation. ''There is one honor, and so many womens!'' (Corneille). About who did he changed opinion? About Vronski? Vronski is changing as story goes. And the way he threw out Vasenyka Veslovski - amazing! And the way he treated his peasants, working with them, reading, writing...

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## March Hare

It's been a while since I read AK but I remember Levin putting in his work with the muzhiks, struggling over the book he was writing. He was not ideal but he was _striving_ to be. Like the time he had a poor hunt with a group and went off the next day alone to do it right. Levin is a mensch, so to speak, and my favorite Tolstoyan character.

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## jinjang

Prince Andrew (Bolkonski) for his high principles;
Atticus Finch as an ideal father and for his gentleness;
Levin for his simplicity;
The Count of Monte Cristo for his tenacity and for his love for goodness in people;
Gatsby for his romantic royalty;
Albus Dumbledore as an ideal teacher and for his humor;
Tomas (Unbearable Lightness of Being) for his sensuality;
Ivanhoe for his jousting and sword skills;
Stephan (Mill on the Floss) for his good looks and for his love for Maggie;
Eugene Onegin for his foolishness;
Ishmael (Snow Falling on Cedars) for overcoming his jealousy;
Settembrini (The Magic Mountains) for his intelligence;
Rhett Butler (Gone With the Wind) for his wickedness and twisted sense of humor;
Cyrano for his rhetoric skills;
Bartimaeus (he is not a man but a jinni) for his magical power;
Mr. Darcy for no good reason at all.

They are my ideals, depending on my mood. If you ask me, I guess I could also come up with my own fictional ideal man.

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## FieldLeftBlank

> I think everyone has a different idea.
> No one is flawless, because there will always be some ppl who will find a flaw in that person/character according t their "idea"


Luckily, I have the answer. Yeshua Ha-Nozri from Bulgakov's _The Master and Margarita_ is indeed flawless. Denying this would come close to blasphemy  :Tongue:

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