# Reading > Poems, Poets, and Poetry >  A Brief Introduction to Chinese Classical Poetry

## zowie86

Chinese Literature - Poetry - Ancient Poetry

In China "poetic education" in the original meaning is learning The Book of Songs. This is the first comprehensive anthology of Chinese poems including 305 poems of the Zhou Dynasty (1122-256 B.C.). It was originally called Shi (Poems) and Shi Sanbai (Three Hundred Poems). Each poem in The Book of Songs was set to music and could be sung. The compilers classified the 305 poems into folk songs, ceremonial songs, and sacrificial songs, according to their contents and the style of the music. Folk songs, which were popular among the people, made up the best part of The Book of Songs, while ceremonial songs and sacrificial songs were used mainly on sacrificial or ceremonial occasions to eulogize the merits and virtues of the Son of Heaven and of his forefathers.

Confucius (551 B.C. - 479 B.C.), a great philosopher and educator was very fond of The Book of Songs. He used to recite the poems from time to time, and used it as a textbook for his pupils. In the Han Dynasty, The Book of Songs was formally accepted as a classic of the Confucian school, called Shi Jing. The Book of Songs has over a long period of times been highly appreciated, and has exerted a profound and far-reaching influence on the development of Chinese literature, especially that of poetry, over a period of more than 2000 years. It has also served as important historical data for the study of ancient China from the early years of the Western Zhou Dynasty to the Spring and Autumn Period.

By the 4th century B.C. China's boundaries had expanded to include the vast area of the Yangtze river valley, where the strong State of Chu became even stronger. This region is very fertile and the life of the inhabitants was more highly developed than that of the northern people. They produced their own type of song, a representative collection of which was compiled under the name of the Chuci (楚辭 Songs of Chu). The songs in this collection are more lyrical and romantic. The style is different from that of The Book of Songs. It is called "poetic prose of Chu", or "the Sao style", in the history of Chinese literature. The representative poet is Qu Yuan (ca. 340-278 B.C.) and his follower Song Yu (fourth century B.C.). 

In the following literary history, there were certain periods which were dominated by one distinctive predominant literary genre, such as fu (descriptive prose interspersed with verse) during the Han Dynasty, poetry in Tang, Ci poetry (a special poetic form) of Song and qu (singing verse) of Yuan. 

During the Han dynasty (206 B.C.-A.D. 220), the Chu lyrics evolved into the fu (賦), a poem usually in rhymed verse except for introductory and concluding passages that are in prose, often in the form of questions and answers.
The Han was a period of cultural flowering. A poetic form that became the norm for creative writing, began to flourish. Emperor Wu created a music bureau, called "yuefu", 乐府, in Chinese, specially to collect and record ceremonial chants, but also the songs and ballads of ordinary people. Collected by the Han Music Bureau "Yuefu", many of these songs are anonymous, but also men of letters wrote these tunes, folk ballads, many of them are very narrative. Later, during the Eastern Han, poems with five characters to a line in imitation of the yuefu style appeared. The employment of five characters to the line was found to be a more rewarding measure, permitting a smoother and more melodious effect and the evocation of subtler human feelings. 

The yue fu began to develop into shi or classical poetry- the form which was to dominate Chinese poetry until the modern era.These poems have five or seven character lines, with a caesura before the last three characters of each line. They are divided into the original gushi (old poems) and jintishi, a stricter form developed in the Tang dynasty with rules governing tone patterns and the structure of the content. The greatest writers of gushi and jintishi are often held to be Li Bai and Du Fu respectively. The Tang Dynasty was a period of great radiance in literary creation and was especially noted for poetry writing, for which it has been dubbed the golden age of poetry, a predominant genre among all literary forms popular with both the rulers and the populace for about 300 years. There had emerged during this period of time a considerable number of brilliant poets and outstanding poetic compositions.

Towards the end of the Tang dynasty, the ci lyric became more popular. Most closely associated with the Song dynasty, ci most often expressed feelings of desire, often in an adopted persona, but the greatest exponents of the form (such as Li Houzhu and Su Shi) used it to address a wide range of topics.

As the ci gradually became more literary and artificial after Song times, the san qu, a freer form, based on new popular songs, developed. The use of san qu songs in drama marked an important step in the development of vernacular literature.

After the Song dynasty, both shi poems and lyrics continued to be composed until the end of end of the imperial period, and to a lesser extent to this day. However, for a number of reasons, these works have always been less highly regarded than those of the Tang dynasty in particular. Firstly, Chinese literary culture remained in awe of its predecessors: in a self-fulfilling prophecy, writers and readers both expected that new works would not bear comparison with the earlier masters. Secondly, the most common response of these later poets to the tradition which they had inherited was to produce work which was ever more refined and allusive; the resulting poems tend to seem precious or just obscure to modern readers. Thirdly, the increase in population, expansion of literacy, wider dissemination of works through printing and more complete archiving vastly increased the volume of work to consider and made it difficult to identify and properly evaluate those good pieces which were produced. Finally, this period saw the rise of vernacular literature, particularly drama and novels, which increasingly became the main means of cultural expression. 


From http://www.china-guide.com/culture/poetry.html (modified)

If you are interested in the English translation of Tang poetry, I'll give you more information about that next time.

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## Silas Thorne

Thank you for putting all of this information in one place for us all!  :Smile:

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## zowie86

> Thank you for putting all of this information in one place for us all!  Are you a specialist in translating Classical Chinese poetry into English?


I have interest in the English translation of classical Chinese poetry, especially in T'ang poetry as it marks an insurmountable peak in Chinese poetry. I suppose I'm on my way to be a specialist. hehe.

I want to know your ideas about the English translation of classical Chinese poetry. Have you read any? In Chinese or in English? If in English, how do you like the translation? Have you ever thought that the translation you have read and liked might not be faithful to the original? 

If you have interest, I'm thinking of conducting an activity to help you know more about the English translation of classical Tang poetry. :Yawnb: 

Do reply and let me know how I can make the activity more rewarding for you.

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## Silas Thorne

I must say, I have been a little disappointed by some English translations I have read of Tang Shi or Song Ci compared to the original. I can read them in Chinese with a bit of work, but not easily (due to the dense historical and cultural information packed into them), and I'm certainly not able to translate them well. One problem seems to be for me that if you try to include this cultural information in a translation, I feel you would need to constantly refer the reader to footnotes, which could make these works an ordeal to read.

Just my opinion based on the little knowledge I have of Classical Chinese poetry. I actually know very little about this. I know more about the 晏子春秋, the 'Spring and Autumn Annals of Master Yan' and ministerial rhetoric (specifically 谏 'remonstrance'） in the Chunqiu period.

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## Jozanny

> I have interest in the English translation of classical Chinese poetry, especially in T'ang poetry as it marks an insurmountable peak in Chinese poetry. I suppose I'm on my way to be a specialist. hehe.
> 
> I want to know your ideas about the English translation of classical Chinese poetry. Have you read any? In Chinese or in English? If in English, how do you like the translation? Have you ever thought that the translation you have read and liked might not be faithful to the original? 
> 
> If you have interest, I'm thinking of conducting an activity to help you know more about the English translation of classical Tang poetry.
> 
> Do reply and let me know how I can make the activity more rewarding for you.


You might be interested in this review of Hinton's translations from the T'ang dynasty:
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.ht...998b4382b9&p=4

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## zowie86

> You might be interested in this review of Hinton's translations from the T'ang dynasty:
> http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.ht...998b4382b9&p=4


I really appreciate that. 

He is right in stating that "the attenuation or absence of many features of English grammar, including pronouns and tenses--all these factors make it impossible for the reader of an English translation to have any accurate sense of how a Chinese poem sounds, moves, and feels to a Chinese reader." 

However, as far as I know, lots of English readers never thought about the original when they were reading a translation. They just took a translation as the translation, limited by their ignorance of Chinese.

That's a pity. They thought they were reading Chinese poetry, but actually they were NOT. What is absurd here is that those preferred by English natives are often severely criticized by Chinese scholars versed in English and Chinese as they were considered unfaithful to the original!

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## stlukesguild

He is right in stating that "the attenuation or absence of many features of English grammar, including pronouns and tenses--all these factors make it impossible for the reader of an English translation to have any accurate sense of how a Chinese poem sounds, moves, and feels to a Chinese reader."

However, as far as I know, lots of English readers never thought about the original when they were reading a translation. They just took a translation as the translation, limited by their ignorance of Chinese.

The lack of nearly any common linguistic basis between Chinese and English (or any Western language) makes adequate translation that is at once true to the literal "meaning" and able to capture some sense of the poetic flow more than challenging. The fact that the number of English scholars and poets fluent in Chinese has been quite limited in comparison to those fluent in French, German, Italian, Spanish, Russian... even Hebrew, Latin, and ancient Greek has certainly curtailed the number of good translations available of Chinese poetry in English. A number of recent translations have spelled out some of the structural elements in Chinese poetry that are virtually untranslatable. Personally, I have gained some further concept of what we are missing from a close Chinese friend. 

That's a pity. They thought they were reading Chinese poetry, but actually they were NOT. What is absurd here is that those preferred by English natives are often severely criticized by Chinese scholars versed in English and Chinese as they were considered unfaithful to the original!

This brings up an intriguing question: what exactly amounts to a good or faithful translation of poetry. We've all heard the aphorism that "poetry is what's lost in translation"... but translation remains a necessity if we are to gain any understanding and appreciation of the thought and artistic achievements of those outside our own culture. My own thoughts on translation have longed mirrored that of Dante Gabriel Rossetti, himself a marvelous poet and translator (see his _The Early Italian Poets_ including Dante Alighieri's _La Vita Nuova_):

The life-blood of... translation is this, - that a good poem shall not be turned into a bad one. The only true motive for putting poetry into a fresh language must be to endow a fresh nation, as far as possible, with one more possession of beauty. Poetry not being an exact science, literality of meaning is altogether secondary to this chief aim. I say _literality_, not fidelity, which is by no means the same thing. When literality can be combined with what is thus the primary condition of success, the translator is fortunate, and must strive to unite them. When such object can only be attained by paraphrase, that is the only path.

Without a grasp of Chinese, one cannot say which translations fail to capture the literal meaning... or suggest something of the poetic flow. One can only recognize which translations succeed or fail as poetry in English. Barring the mastery of the language in question, the best path may be to have access to several different translations... especially for the "most important" texts. Translations, after all, age in a manner which the original does not because by their very nature they capture but one aspect of the original. Alexander Pope's Homer is inherently different than Allen Mandelbaum's or Robert Fagles' who come to the work centuries after Pope.

That much said there is still the fact that the translations from Chinese are woefully limited. Those that I have enjoyed the best include the classic Arthur Whaley's, Kenneth Rexroth's, David Hinton's, David Young's, and Tony and Willis Barnstone's. Each of these translators has been quite good at providing notes that help in a further understanding of multiple layers of meaning, subtexts, and formal structures that could not be in an way "translated".

The poets that have intrigued me the most (in translation) include Tu Fu (Du Fu), Li Po (Li Bai), and Wang Wei. I must admit to a certain fascination with non-Western culture (including poetry) as of late... linked, no doubt, with my interest in non-Western art. This includes not merely Chinese poetry but also Japanese, Indian, Persian, and Islamic.

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## JBI

Actually, there is an interesting collection edited and translated by Wai-Lim Yip that seeks to remedy the absence of English grammatical constructions in Classical Chinese, by providing both the translation in the original form, and the characters + literal definitions for each character (with footnotes pointing out parallels and things).

I'll add more later, as right now I am recovering from having my wisdom teeth out, and am in a lot of pain since T3s supposedly do not really work on me, and the anesthetic has left me a little bit dizzy. Anyway though, thank you for posting this - I was meaning to get a thread started on Chinese poetry, but couldn't really find any resources that I could cut and paste - thanks for starting this, more later.

But if this thread becomes long, can we agree to use the Pinyin system (perhaps omitting the tone markers) for poets' names, so that people can more easily find who we are talking about, without having to search for alternate spellings, if the conversation strays beyond Lǐ Bái, Dù Fǔ and Wáng Wéi, and perhaps Lǎozǐ, as it hopefully will?

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## Silas Thorne

> But if this thread becomes long, can we agree to use the Pinyin system (perhaps omitting the tone markers) for poets' names, so that people can more easily find who we are talking about, without having to search for alternate spellings, if the conversation strays beyond Lǐ Bái, Dù Fǔ and Wáng Wéi, and perhaps Lǎozǐ, as it hopefully will?


That's a good plan, JBI.  :Smile:  Pinyin, as opposed to the Wade-Giles system, is the more accepted system worldwide now to transliterate Chinese into English letters. It has been standard in China for quite some time now.




> The fact that the number of English scholars and poets fluent in Chinese has been quite limited in comparison to those fluent in French, German, Italian, Spanish, Russian... even Hebrew, Latin, and ancient Greek has certainly curtailed the number of good translations available of Chinese poetry in English.


Quite true, St. Lukes Guild! And though more and more people outside China are learning Chinese, this is dwarfed by the sheer number of Chinese people learning English. Many of the good translations in future too will also come from people with a Chinese background who can also write excellent poetry in English.

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## JBI

> That's a good plan, JBI.  Pinyin, as opposed to the Wade-Giles system, is the more accepted system worldwide now to transliterate Chinese into English letters. It has been standard in China for quite some time now.
> 
> 
> 
> Quite true, St. Lukes Guild! And though more and more people outside China are learning Chinese, this is dwarfed by the sheer number of Chinese people learning English. Many of the good translations in future too will also come from people with a Chinese background who can also write excellent poetry in English.


It's interesting though, that the direction is going both ways. I've seen Sonnets, for instance, translated from Chinese (meaning Chinese poets working with Sonnets, which is almost cheating, given that 10 syllables go a longer way in Chinese, making the sonnet have much, much more room). I mean, there are poets who embrace Chinese elements - Ezra Pound being one (though, from what I know, his Cathay and other writings on Chinese poetry are incredibly flawed, and based on mediocre source material and scholarship via Japanese, though he tries to copy elements of classical Chinese poetic constructions, so I am told, throughout the Cantos (my knowledge of classical Chinese is far worse than that of the Cantos, a text which I have, like virtually everyone, great, great trouble understanding)), and perhaps the closest to a native English speaker incorporating Chinese elements, Gary Snyder. Though, the amount of good poetry coming from people of Chinese origin in the diaspora is undeniably high (though I sense a slight hegemony, yielding toward English forms and constructs over Chinese ones in many instances). 


Pinyin is also good for writing names, because it is easier for people to learn to pronounce them (there are many Pinyin sites available, which will give a sound recording per syllable, including intonation).

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## jinjang

> I want to know your ideas about the English translation of classical Chinese poetry. Have you read any? In Chinese or in English? If in English, how do you like the translation? Have you ever thought that the translation you have read and liked might not be faithful to the original?
> 
> If you have interest, I'm thinking of conducting an activity to help you know more about the English translation of classical Tang poetry.
> 
> Do reply and let me know how I can make the activity more rewarding for you.


I read only a couple of translations chosen by Chinese friends. It was based on stoicism and I thought it refreshing. They are short poems but well-translated according to my Chinese friends. Apparently you can translate some for us with your language skills in English and Chinese. I would like to be a part of your activity. I can only appreciate without criticism, since I am not an expert in literature.

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## JBI

I have read quite a few actually, the ones with the longest introductions seem to be the most interesting, and ones that go into detail about form seem great too. Editions that have no or very short introductions, and no real footnotes seem to be missing everything, and from an interest perspective, they are rather flat, though in terms of reading worth in English, they are far easier to "get", then more academic ones.

That being said - I am no expert on the subject (though I perhaps aspire to be, being such a wannabe Sinologist  :Smile:  ). I'd just avoid though, anything with a cover that looks like it has been designed with an orientalist sort of exoticism as its objective, or something with a title that sounds nonacademic.

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## crystalmoonshin

I think Westerners are more familiar with the poet 李 白 than any Chinese poets. Here's his most famous poem. (Actually, it's the only Chinese poem I've memorized. Learned it when I was in high school.)

靜 夜 思 

床 前 明 月 光 chuáng qián míng yùe guāng

疑 是 地 上 霜 yí shì dì shàng shuāng

舉 頭 望 明 月 jǔ tóu wàng míng yùe

低 頭 思 故 鄉 dī tóu sī gù xiāng


My translation: (You may want to correct me, since I'm not quite sure if I get it right.)

Thoughts on a Silent Night

The bright moonlight before my bed
Resembles ice on the ground.
With head raised, I look at the moon
With head bowed, I think of my home country.

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## Silas Thorne

That's a good general translation. I love this poem too (along with many others).  :Smile:  Although I'm not a specialist in this though, and I'm sure zowie86 will put my right if I stray a bit sensewise, I think there are points that you've missed here.

First of all 'shuang' is closer to 'frost' than 'ice', at least in my understanding of the charater.

'Yi' at the start of the second line I feel could be better translated, from meaning anyway, as 'I mistook for' or 'I thought was'.

I also think that 'ju' and 'di' at the beginning of the last two lines actually function as verbs, 'raising' or 'lifting up' for 'ju', and 'lowering' for 'di'. 

Just a short note, got to go now.

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## zowie86

Its interesting that in above replies I found you have quite opposite ideas about notes and whether to paraphrase.
On notes, Silas Thorne thought that notes could make works an ordeal to read. While stlukesguild stated that providing notes helps in a further understanding of multiple layers of meaning, subtexts, and formal structures. And JBI liked long introductions. You are quite divided. 

On whether to paraphrase, JBI implied that translations should have Chinese flavor; whereas stlukesguild preferred paraphrase to bring beauty to the target culture. Is it possible that JBI has been influenced by Yips style in translating Chinese poetry? And stlukesguild by Dante?

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## stlukesguild

A few interesting thoughts related to the discussion:

http://www.cipherjournal.com/html/liu_zongyuan.html

http://www.chinese-poems.com/yip.html

And perhaps a sight worth looking into:

http://www.chinese-poems.com/index.html

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## crystalmoonshin

> That's a good general translation. I love this poem too (along with many others).  Although I'm not a specialist in this though, and I'm sure zowie86 will put my right if I stray a bit sensewise, I think there are points that you've missed here.
> 
> First of all 'shuang' is closer to 'frost' than 'ice', at least in my understanding of the charater.
> 
> 'Yi' at the start of the second line I feel could be better translated, from meaning anyway, as 'I mistook for' or 'I thought was'.
> 
> I also think that 'ju' and 'di' at the beginning of the last two lines actually function as verbs, 'raising' or 'lifting up' for 'ju', and 'lowering' for 'di'. 
> 
> Just a short note, got to go now.



I was expecting to be corrected about the "shuang" thing. I'm not really sure if it's the same as "bing", but just the same, those two words evoke the cold element. (I'm in a tropical country and we don't have winter here...) But yeah, frost would be a better translation.

About the "yi" word, which can mean "doubt" when combined with "huai" (huaiyi), I remember my Chinese teacher paraphrasing the entire poem and she used the word "xiang" 像 (to resemble). 

The last two lines can be translated as:

I lift my head to gaze at the bright moon
I bow my head and think of my home country.

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## zowie86

As for crystalmoonshins translation of Li Bai, Im afraid it must be greatly polished to be called a translation. In the original, there are obvious end rhymes in line 1,3, 4, with five characters in each line. I presume youd better use the same syllables in each line, whether its 6 or 8 or 10 to render the beauty in form. And rhyming and rhythmic pattern be used to represent the original musicality obvious to Chinese ears. Silas Thorne is right in pointing out your mistakes in conveying the meaning. (Forgive me that Im trying to be honest as you are.)

There are at least 13 translations of this poem 静夜思. 
Personally, I prefer a translation by a Chinese scholar Xuan Yuanchong:
Thoughts on a Tranquil Night
Before my bed a pool of light--
O can it be frost on the ground?
Looking up, I find the moon bright;
Bowing, in homesickness I'm drowned.
Note: Seeing a pool of moonlight, the poet is drowned in the pool of homesickness.

He used iambic tetrameter, with licenses certainly, and rhyming scheme of abab, which are supposed to be musical to English ears. But the biggest question is probably whether its beautiful to English readers as the original is musical and poetic to all Chinese readers.

Below are two versions in free verse. You are free to comment if you like. 
In front of my bed the moonlight is very bright. 
I wonder if that can be frost on the floor? 
I list up my head and look at the full noon, the dazzling moon. 
I drop my head, and think of the home of old days. 
(Tr. Amy Lowell) 

So bright a gleam on the foot of my bed--- 
Could there have been a frost already? 
Lifting my head to look, I found that it was moonlight. 
Sinking back again, I thought suddenly of home. 

And I must say, personally I dont like the translations from Arthur Waley, David Hinton or David Young, let alone Kenneth Rexroth, who is more like a writer using Chinese resources than a responsible translator. All of them used free verse, losing the beauty of form and musicality in the original while failed to better convey the meaning for their incompetence in Chinese, event though they are unrestrained by strict rhyme and rhythm.

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## crystalmoonshin

Hi, Zowie! Thanks for the comments. I greatly appreciate them. I guess I really left out a great deal of the poem when I didn't consider the rhythm and the rhyme.

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## JBI

山 行

杜牧（803-852）



远上寒山石径斜，

白云生处有人家。

停车坐爱枫林晚，

霜叶红于二月花。


Mountain Hiking

Du Mu (803-852)

Translated by Tony Barnstone and Chou Ping


Up the distant cold mountain a stone path extends slant.

At the place where white clouds rise there is a house.

I stop my carriage and sit to enjoy the late maple forest.

The frost-bit leaves are redder than February flowers.

http://3us.enghunan.gov.cn/index.php...emid=4&lang=zh

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## stlukesguild

There are at least 13 translations of this poem 静夜思.
Personally, I prefer a translation by a Chinese scholar Xuan Yuanchong:

Thoughts on a Tranquil Night
Before my bed a pool of light--
O can it be frost on the ground?
Looking up, I find the moon bright;
Bowing, in homesickness I'm drowned.

He used iambic tetrameter, with licenses certainly, and rhyming scheme of abab, which are supposed to be musical to English ears.

This translation may be the most literal... and the scholar may suppose to have created a work that is musical to the English ear... but it sounds far too simplistic as English... rather like the lyrics of a popular "moon-spoon-June" love song.

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## Silas Thorne

JBI, I think the _meaning_ is there in this translation, but it seems the poetry of the original here has been hacked off with a knife and left on a mountain path to be trod upon. Just my personal view, mind. 

zowie86, I much prefer the last free verse translation. Although the original does have 'moonlight' in the first line, the last syllable stressed in the line, and what seems most important,is the gleam of the moon which causes what seems to be frost on the ground. And the 'sinking' into the internal world of homesickness works better for me. 
The phrase 'moon bright' in the verse translation that you prefer clashes a little for me, and 'find' doesn't seem to capture the 望 _wang_ of the original. 
But I can see now just how difficult it is to translate such poems, balancing poetry, meaning, and the character of the original text.

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## Jozanny

I've stayed silent because I don't know to what degree this is translation, or a modern rendition of a language which is too far removed from European forms. I have lost most of my French, but 

tu
vous
you

are roughly equivalent to each other. If it is impossible to aim for such parity between Chinese and English, then what am I reading? Even if Governor Huntsman had the time to teach me Mandarin, I do not think I could ever become fluent, and yet Pound, who wasn't, winds up with stanzas very similar to Hinton, who is. I'd be a reader of very little faith, even if I took the trouble.

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## zowie86

> [COLOR="DarkRed"]
> 
> but it sounds far too simplistic as English... rather like the lyrics of a popular "moon-spoon-June" love song.


As a matter of fact, the original is absolutely simple to Chinese, and it is popular in all generations. You will easily find a 3-year-old child reciting this little poem in China. Simplicity is probably one of the reasons why some poems like this become popular.

If you think it's somewhat like a "moon-spoon-June" love song, the poet and the translator will probably be glad to hear that. It's a little melodious lyric on home missing.

Melody and simplicity are salient in most Chinese poems, except those by Li Shangyin.

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## zowie86

> I've stayed silent because I don't know to what degree this is translation, or a modern rendition of a language which is too far removed from European forms. I have lost most of my French, but 
> 
> tu
> vous
> you
> 
> are roughly equivalent to each other. If it is impossible to aim for such parity between Chinese and English, then what am I reading? Even if Governor Huntsman had the time to teach me Mandarin, I do not think I could ever become fluent, and yet Pound, who wasn't, winds up with stanzas very similar to Hinton, who is. I'd be a reader of very little faith, even if I took the trouble.


Luckily, you may find 你 and 您 in Chinese as equivalent to tu and vous. 

You are sensible in saying that you have very little faith in Pound, etc, but don't lose faith. We actually find lots of good translations from English to Chinese, why can't we translate Chinese well into English?

That translators in the past failed to do that doesn't necessarily mean that we can't do it better in the future.

Have a little faith.  :Yawnb:

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## JBI

> Luckily, you may find 你 and 您 in Chinese as equivalent to tu and vous. 
> 
> You are sensible in saying that you have very little faith in Pound, etc, but don't lose faith. We actually find lots of good translations from English to Chinese, why can't we translate Chinese well into English?
> 
> That translators in the past failed to do that doesn't necessarily mean that we can't do it better in the future.
> 
> Have a little faith.


The reason is probably that the bulk of poetic translations are of classical texts, rather than contemporary ones - certainly the Chinese Classical grammar cannot be represented in English as well as, lets say, Vernacular Chinese Grammar, which would seem to be far closer to English, and therefore easier to translate.

Though, just looking at the characters themselves, as I only know about 100 or so simple characters at the minute, I can notice patterns, which most certainly could note be replicated into English. Beyond that to, the actual tones and sounds of the characters cannot be translated into English (though it would be interesting if someone tried writing with tonal indicators in English).

English on the other hand, I would think translates well, as it seems to rely on the meaning of words in sentences, or clauses, and therefore can easily be converted into other languages. I would think, something like French would change far more when translated, as it is such a grammar savvy language, whereas English is such a meaning language - though I could see problems with translating irony and humor.

That being said, when it comes to it, generally I feel that translators who keep the line structure of the poems run into two major problems; one, they must use English grammar, meaning they would need to add words on essentially every line. Two, for flow, they would almost certainly end up reworking the word order.

Perhaps translations that look more like:
Thoughts 
Tranquil Night

Before my bed 
pool of light--


frost on the 
ground?

Looking up,
the moon bright;

Bowing in
homesickness;
drowned.

Or something like that - of course, probably a bad example (it would probably be easier with longer lines, or a longer poem with more variance and complexity in image, but you must surely get the idea.


Now, beyond that, perhaps someone innovative and creative could translate beyond that, by maintaining a sort of color, or visual presentational pattern that evokes elements of the Chinese original. In truth, a very innovative artist, working mind you with both visual manipulation, and textual manipulation, could quite possibly get beyond the visual and grammatical constraints. Of course, sound would still be a problem, and any such effort would most likely make the poem far more complex than the original, but perhaps actually drawing the moon, as both word and image, before a bed, as both word and image, could create a closer sense of understanding.

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## JBI

邵雍

山村

一去二三里， 
烟村四五家， 
亭台六七座， 
八九十枝花。

yi qu er san li
yen cun si wu jia
tin tai liu wu zuo
ba jiu shi zhi hua

Mountain Village
by Shao Yong
translation mine (and mediocre, unfortunately)

One goes just two or three li:
four or five smoking houses
six or seven pavillions
eight or nine or ten flowers

Note smoking houses, as in smoke from a cook stove, li, a measure of distance, around half a kilometer.

----------


## crystalmoonshin

> 邵雍
> 
> 山村
> 
> 一去二三里， 
> 烟村四五家， 
> 亭台六七座， 
> 八九十枝花。
> 
> ...


烟村四五家 is four or five smoking villages. 家 here is a 量词 (liangci) like 枝 and 座. Still, nice job.  :Smile: 

I think many teachers use this poem to teach the numbers 1-10 in Chinese.

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## JBI

> 烟村四五家 is four or five smoking villages. 家 here is a 量词 (liangci) like 枝 and 座. Still, nice job. 
> 
> I think many teachers use this poem to teach the numbers 1-10 in Chinese.


I got it as an introduction to Measurewords in Chinese  :Tongue: . Only reason I posted it, is because it is the only poem I can safely say I understand.

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## JBI

Bump - woah, my Chinese has improved since I posted last on this thing  :Tongue:  I feel almost embarrassed.

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## JBI

Is anybody interested in me posting more things, or should I let this thing die again?

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## Jozanny

JBI: I just don't know enough, and I know trying to learn how to read Asian poets would take enormous energy, at least without a class and a good instructor. I do not eschew self-discovery, but not here. I'd need a teacher.

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## JBI

> JBI: I just don't know enough, and I know trying to learn how to read Asian poets would take enormous energy, at least without a class and a good instructor. I do not eschew self-discovery, but not here. I'd need a teacher.


Nah, just read Stephen Owen, and you may not be an expert, but you'll know enough to read translation easily.

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## stlukesguild

Chinese is certainly one of the the most difficult languages and poetic traditions in which to translate poetry as both my reading on the subject and discussions with my Chinese studio-mate have revealed. The language is simply so far from English or any Western language as to make accurate translations that preserve something of the form almost impossible. The best it seems that we may hope for is a translation that preserves the meaning as well as possible and converts it into some vestige of an English poem as preserving the form and the content appears almost an impossibility. The best translations that I have come across are those which include solid notes.

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## JBI

> Chinese is certainly one of the the most difficult languages and poetic traditions in which to translate poetry as both my reading on the subject and discussions with my Chinese studio-mate have revealed. The language is simply so far from English or any Western language as to make accurate translations that preserve something of the form almost impossible. The best it seems that we may hope for is a translation that preserves the meaning as well as possible and converts it into some vestige of an English poem as preserving the form and the content appears almost an impossibility. The best translations that I have come across are those which include solid notes.


There is an excellent anthology on Chinese literature by the previously mentioned Stephen Owen which is a fantastic work of scholarship and translation (though it includes other genres as well, including anecdotes, history writing, drama and short fiction) but is now the staple translation for beginners in American classrooms. You can get a really cheap copy on American Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Anthology-Chin...4362753&sr=8-2 if you are interested; Owen's other work on the Tang is also noteworthy.

Also, a translator writing under the name Red Pine has done an interesting collection of the 300 Tang Poems with large notes, but I feel it reads better after reading Owen, since Owen deals more with genre and how metaphors emerge, whereas Red Pine isn't discussing history as much, and seems to take a lot for granted.

Of course, I also sent you a link to that book by Idema, which is a fantastic work, as it really has superb notes, including biographies, and translations from primary scholarship and historical documents.

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## JBI

There is also this collection http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/0231...&pf_rd_i=typ01 out of Columbia which generally is a fantastic publisher of and about Chinese literature, but I haven't read it, so I am going to take a look at it first for a while with my dictionary before giving it a recommendation.

Seriously though, some of you are lucky that you live in the States and benefit from cheaper books; books in Canada are sometimes twice as expensive if not more.

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## wlz

How Goes the Night?

How goes the night?
Midnight has to come.
Down in the court the torch is blazing bright;
I hear far off the throbbing of the drum.

How goes the night?
The night is not yet gone.
I hear the trumpets blowing on the height;
The torch is paling in the coming dawn.

How goes the night?
The night is past and done.
The torch is smoking in the morning light,
The dragon banner floating in the sun.

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## wlz

I have taken the above piece from the Shi King, or Book of Odes compiled I believe by Confucius c. 500 B.C. ...?

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## wlz

Any readers of the work of famous singers of Pagan Arabia 8th - 6th century: 'The Seven Golden Odes', etc... or other Ancient Arabic Poetry? How do you rate it in comparison to Ancient Chinese Poetry?

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## JBI

> Any readers of the work of famous singers of Pagan Arabia 8th - 6th century: 'The Seven Golden Odes', etc... or other Ancient Arabic Poetry? How do you rate it in comparison to Ancient Chinese Poetry?


Haven't heard of those Odes, I'd be interested to look into them though if you could give me the name of a translation by any chance.

As it is though, I am not the most fond of the Book of songs, I prefer more Daoist and Buddhist elements than the sort of Confucian elements of the early book, and also prefer the Chu Ci, which I believe now are available in a translation from the Foreign Press in Beijing, though there are better translations of selections floating around, especially Owen's translation of the Li Sao in his anthology, which gives great footnotes.

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## wlz

Hi JBI, the odes which I refer to have been known by different names such as the Suspended Odes, the Hanging Odes, the Seven Golden Odes or the Seven Suspended Poems... they come from a time, (8th - 6th centuries) regarded by many as the Golden Age of Arabic Poetry, (?) I have a collection of old and worn anthologies which I bought from an antiquarian bookstore in the countryside some years back and they include several different translators. Anyway, the odes mentioned above and many other Pagan Arabian works come from: 

the pre-Islamic text Mu' Allaqat, (compiled 8th century), features a poet called Imr El kais (6th century) whom I assume you'll enjoy if you can get a copy of this work, and another poet also featured is the writer Ibn Kolthum also (6th century). 

I believe another interesting classic text is the Mufaddaliyat again compiled in the 8th century and features the poet Alqamah and his piece, 'His Camel', I think this piece is superb! If you wish, I will post it up here verbatim for you to read.

Some of the translators: 

Lady Anne Blunt, E. Powyrs Mathers, Sir Charles Lyall, R. A. Nicholson and W. G. Palgrave.

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## wlz

I have a small collection of poems by Tu Fu. Wasn't he considered the poet of scholars? Do you like his work? I have a decent translation of his poem, 'The Emperor', which is one of my favourites.

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## stlukesguild

I am, admittedly, far more intrigued with Arabic/Persian/Islamic?Middle-Eastern culture in general than I am with that of China. This all comes down to personal preferences and as a visual artist I am far more intrigued my the visual arts of the Middle-East than I am with those of China... and this has led me as a bibliophile to a most certain fascination with the literature of the culture as well. Unfortunately, in most instances the literature... the poetry of Persia, the Arabs, the Mughals, and Arab-Andaluz are even less accessible to the English-speaking audience as a result of limited translations, than is the literature of China and Japan. There are certainly many volumes of the poetry of Hafez and Rumi to be found, but a vast majority of these are horrible, hippie-New Age spiritualism-type translations and are far from offering much in terms of serious critical commentary or translations of a high aesthetic worth. Searching around a bit on-line I came across several translations available to download (or even purchase through Amazon) of the _Mu'allaqat_ and the _Mufaddaliyat_ but I must honestly admit that there are a good number of books on my reading list ahead of these... including the Warner translation of the _Shahnameh_.

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## wlz

www.archive.org › Text Archive › Canadian Libraries. JBI, if it is of any use to you I just found a place where you can download these texts for free. I do not know what the transaltions are like. wlz.

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## wlz

stlukesguild, I agree and my interests in Arabic, Persian, Sanskrit, Egyptian and Hebrew woud be far greater than my interests in the poetry and culture of China or Japan, although I did spend many years studying the martial arts of China. Have you read Sa'Di? One of my favourite Persian poets, although I love reading the work, 'A Persian Song of Hafiz'.

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## Silas Thorne

> As it is though, I am not the most fond of the Book of songs, I prefer more Daoist and Buddhist elements than the sort of Confucian elements of the early book.


Or rather that a lot of what Confucius thought stemmed from the traditional ideas and content of this work perhaps? Yanzi (Yanying) also lived around the same period and had many of the same ideas as Confucius because the Shijing was their moral and cultural guide in many ways.

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## stlukesguild

wlz, I won't throw Japan in with China as that small island nation... as influenced as it was by China... is really an entirely different beast. I am actually deeply enamored by (and influenced by as an artist) Japanese art. Still it is the arts of the Middle-East... spreading from Islamic India to Islamic Spain... that is most fascinating to me outside of Western culture both in terms of literature and art (and I might even throw music into the mix). I have read a slight bit of Sa'Di. I'm particular to the Arabic poetry of Islamic Andaluz that is to be found in the classic translation by Cola Franzen and which was part of a collection that inspired Garcia-Lorca and the entire 20th century Spanish Renaissance. I'm also somewhat read in the Jewish poets of Islamic Spain who with the Arabs of the same culture were profoundly influential upon the French and Provencal troubadours and as such, upon the entire tradition of European lyric poetry.

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## JBI

> wlz, I won't throw Japan in with China as that small island nation... as influenced as it was by China... is really an entirely different beast. I am actually deeply enamored by (and influenced by as an artist) Japanese art. Still it is the arts of the Middle-East... spreading from Islamic India to Islamic Spain... that is most fascinating to me outside of Western culture both in terms of literature and art (and I might even throw music into the mix). I have read a slight bit of Sa'Di. I'm particular to the Arabic poetry of Islamic Andaluz that is to be found in the classic translation by Cola Franzen and which was part of a collection that inspired Garcia-Lorca and the entire 20th century Spanish Renaissance. I'm also somewhat read in the Jewish poets of Islamic Spain who with the Arabs of the same culture were profoundly influential upon the French and Provencal troubadours and as such, upon the entire tradition of European lyric poetry.


It's interesting to note though the old classics of Japan were written in what was essentially Chinese, nearly pure Classical Chinese. Korea and Japan seem descended from Tang China culturally, but it is interesting to look at how they differ culturally, and how they emerge as distinct civilizations by reinterpreting and personalizing different thoughts that they incorporate.

Tang Poetry actually had a profound effect as both starting ground and model of Japanese verse, it's just that Tang's decline led China on a different cultural path, arguably, and the reshaping of Japan as a more isolated culture emerged to cross traditional culture as a new variant.

But all the Kimonos and clothing we originally associate with Japan are in truth Tang dynasty imports that emerge into their own forms of fashion outside of the direct, or close influence of China.

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## blazeofglory

I am reading tirelessly Chinese poems, The Tao in fact. They are matchless beauties

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## JBI

> I am reading tirelessly Chinese poems, The Tao in fact. They are matchless beauties


I don't know if I want to call it poetry though.

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## stlukesguild

There is an aspect of the Japanese aesthetic that is far more stripped-down... almost Minimalist or Modernist in contrast to the more "Baroque" aesthetic of the Chinese. A large part of this is owed to the comparatively hermetic experience of the Japanese... the influence of the respect for nature and natural forms rooted in the native Shinto religion... the lack of access to certain materials and influences. One might see the contrast quite obviously in the ceramic arts, which were central to both China and Japan. China produced a vast array of ceramics, some of which clearly illustrate their contact with other cultures:

The famous ceramic army of the emperor Qin Shi Huang makes a masterful use of a naturalism (each figure is an individual and soldiers clearly show a variety of nationalities and clothing types) that almost certainly was inspired by contact with the West and the Greco-Roman world:



The pieces show traces of paint and were quite probably painted in a naturalistic manner. Later works show clear influence of other Western sources, including Middle-Eastern... both in theme and style:





Later Chinese ceramics make great use of porcelain which allowed for the most delicate and fine ceramic-wear. The works are commonly symmetrical, highly sophisticated and decorative in a manner that is almost Baroque (or even Rococo). It shouldn't be surprising that such works were highly valued by European collectors during the Baroque era and became the inspiration for European ceramics... especially the blue Dutch "Delftware" that drew upon the Chinese Ming pieces especially:





The Japanese developed along a distinctly unique path. The works of the early Haniwa period show a clear respect for natural materials (no paint or other decoration) and simple... almost crude processes... as well as a unique stylization:





This aesthetic... the respect for natural, untreated materials and the rejection of decoration remained a hallmark of Japanese ceramics... and art in general... almost by necessity. Where China has access to the fine clay suited to the most delicate porcelain, they refused to export this raw material to their competitors... recognizing the worth of having the monopoly upon the porcelain ware in demand in the West... and among their Asian neighbors. By contrast, Japanese ceramic wear appears raw... almost crude... as a result of the use of the heavier stonewear clay that did not allow for fine details... and that as a result of higher firing temperatures did not allow for brighter colors or delicate glazed decorations:

 

The decoration, rather, embraced the Zen (from the Chinese Chen) calligraphic, gestural approach to painting. There were ways around the problem of the lack of access to porcelain. One of the best was the use of enamels... even gold and other metals... fused to the surfaces of the ceramic pieces. This technique was quite favored during the Momoyama period when gold leaf and the decorative was embraced:

 

With time, however, the Japanese developed an aesthetic the fully embraced the limitations of "crude" stonewear... even employing what the Chinese would have seen as "mistakes" as an aesthetic in itself: 

Crude and misformed objects:



Drips:



Cracked and bubbled glazes:



Ceramic not fully covered with glaze so that raw clay shows through:



This aesthetic evolved into such a highly desired and sophisticated style that the individual ceramic artist became well-known and sought after. It's not surprising, however, that the Japanese works were not valued in the West until the advent of Modernism. The Modernist recognized the brilliantly unique elements of Japanese design... not only as seen in their ceramics... but in the hard-edged geometric architecture with its use of raw materials which inspired entire generations of architects from Frank Loyd Wright on:



The calligraphy that made use of the gestural line as well as a contrasetween the most elegant sensitivity to materials (papers, gold leaf, colors) and the apparent random mistakes of splatters, drips, etc:



Some works almost seem to predict Abstract Expressionism:



Neither can we forget the brilliant design of the screen paintings:



... and the Ukiyo-e prints that would have the most profound impact upon Western art... from Degas and Van Gogh... to comic books and anime:

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## JBI

You forget where it comes from though. The sculpture of the head of a rider is most certainly influenced from tribes north of Manchuria that came down and made up the first wave of Japanese immigrants - there is a cultural link between both sides of the Eastern Sea (Sea of Japan). The royal insignia of Japan, for instance, are designed in strange fashion; the mirror betrays traces of Chinese influence, and the Sword is essentially written in Chinese characters, and smithed in Sillan (Silla dynasty that ruled over much of South and North Korea) metalwork. Before the Yamato period, I think it is safe to say that the cultural exchange is rather undefined - what is Korea and what is Japan seem debatable facts.

The very same notion was brought up at the beginning of the 20th century, when Japan justified an annexation of Korea with history in the Nihongi claiming a colony on the southern tip of the Korean Peninsula - what it implies, historically is an almost permanent presence on the peninsula, which at the time, just north of there was also engaged with a long period of Chinese garrison.

The Shinto religion though as a construct comes into play later; Buddhism clearly usurps its position as a sort of central belief, and Confucianism dominates the structural conceptualization of the country in the early periods. Likewise, the introduction of Chinese characters (largely through Korea) brings a crosswork of forms of communication.

Hitomaro may form the genesis of Japanese verse forms, but the actual forms themselves are adopted from Chinese sources; Tang Poetry is, in essence, Japanese foundational verse itself.

As for Chinese art being somehow more vulgar, landscape painting which emerged during the time of disunity between the fall of the Han and the emergence of the Sui would reflect a sort of simplistic minimalism, showing a single character within a ink-drawn landscape.

I think the affinity to Japanese artwork has to do with the fact that Japanese artwork, like impressionist and Renaissance art work seems to have been absorbed into the popular imagination. There is nothing to suggest though that the works are any less intricate, or minimalist, in the sense that John Adams can be described as more minimalist than J. S. Bach.

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## stlukesguild

You forget where it comes from though. The sculpture of the head of a rider is most certainly influenced from tribes north of Manchuria that came down and made up the first wave of Japanese immigrants -

Almost certainly the initial settlers of Japan came from the mainland of what became China... but we are talking the Paleolithic age... some 30,000 years ago or more... well before the existence of any Chinese culture. The Jōmon period resulted in some of the oldest ceramics known (c. 14,000 BC) although it is assumed that the art was probably developed in central Asia. The ceramic Haniwa sculpture that I posted was a product of the Yayoi era (c. 900 BC) through the Kofun era (c. 250- 538 AD). The Yayoi were a people from the southern regions of Japan who may have been a mixture of Korean and Chinese with the older Jōmon. These people moved north mixing with the still existent Jōmon peoples and eventually established what would become Tokyo. There is little history of the era outside of a few Chinese records. The first Japanese records do not appear until the Jōmon era at which time the ruling classes began to adopt the Chinese written language, although they maintained a native Japanese pronunciation. 

Before the Yamato period, I think it is safe to say that the cultural exchange is rather undefined - what is Korea and what is Japan seem debatable facts.

Certainly... while China develops as a clearly defined culture far earlier. 

The Shinto religion though as a construct comes into play later...

Shinto is actually just a loose collection of indigenous nature-based spiritual beliefs and practices that date back to the prehistoric era. 

Buddhism clearly usurps its position as a sort of central belief

Not really. Buddhism was embraced by many of the ruling and aristocratic classes, but in no way ousted the native Shinto beliefs. The Japanese approach to religion, indeed, seems syncretic... combining various aspects of Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism... and later, Christianity. Currently over 120 million Japanese adhere to the Shinto religion... but in a great many instances these same persons also follow various Buddhist or even Christian practices.

As for Chinese art being somehow more vulgar, landscape painting which emerged during the time of disunity between the fall of the Han and the emergence of the Sui would reflect a sort of simplistic minimalism, showing a single character within a ink-drawn landscape.

I wouldn't characterize Chinese art as more "vulgar"... rather it far more likely to be more ornate... to embrace details and decoration. I agree that the Chinese painting of the Chen/Zen period provided the model for the Japanese aesthetic of Minimalism and the embrace of the gesture:





This style (as well as the Chen/Zen Buddhist beliefs that accompanied it) seem to have suited the Japanese nature-based aesthetic and the respect for the natural... accidental... spontaneous. Where it becomes but a single short-lived aspect of Chinese art, it essentially is the core of Japanese art.

I think the affinity to Japanese artwork has to do with the fact that Japanese artwork, like impressionist and Renaissance art work seems to have been absorbed into the popular imagination. There is nothing to suggest though that the works are any less intricate, or minimalist, in the sense that John Adams can be described as more minimalist than J. S. Bach.

The popularity of Japanese art with the Impressionists, Abstract Expressionists, and other Modernists certainly promoted the Japanese aesthetic. Then again, the Chinese style was spread throughout Europe far earlier through Dutch and other merchants. The reality is that the minimalism, the geometry, the clean, sparse design, the flat graphic forms, and the embrace of the natural materials and "accidental" or spontaneous effects are clearly different from Chinese art and undoubtedly more in line with Modernist aesthetics. Japanese style appeared (and still appears) to many Western artists to be far more "modern" in that it is far more removed from traditional Western aesthetics. Where a painting such as Fan Kuan's _Travelers amid Mountains and Streams_:



is a clear masterpiece, it is not incredibly far from the European landscape traditions:



especially if one considers the European Romantic tradition which echoes the Chinese aesthetic in terms of presenting the overwhelming power of nature:



the flat graphics of Japanese screen painting and Ukiyo-e prints... the near abstraction of the imagery... the verticality and the spatial distortions...





and the intimate nature of the imagery such as scenes of everyday landscapes, scenes drawn from domestic life (as opposed to images of noble figures such as aristocrats of religious figures), or suggestions of the erotic... such as in this screen painting in which the robes of (multiple?) lovers are seen hanging like so many trophies:



Were seen as incredibly shocking... compositionally daring... and profoundly inspirational to Western artists. There are few having the least exposure to Chinese and Japanese art who cannot discern one from the other as easily as one might discern German from Italian art. This is not to make the least value judgment or to suggest that one is inherently superior to the other... although I have my admitted preference. On the other hand, I will suggest that Japanese art has seemed to have survived contact with the West far better than Chinese. After a period of horribly derivative work, Japanese artist found a way in which to absorb Western tradition within their own native artistic language. The more abstract/nature-based works clearly echo ancient Japanese (Shinto) traditions:



Other artists have been able to brilliantly fuse Japanese traditions of painting and print with popular culture... especially with the cartoon/anime figures that were rooted in the Ukiyo-e:



Chinese art, on the other hand, only seems to be beginning to come into its own once again. Many of the artists are incredibly talented in an academic sense... but prone to sad imitations of Western-style work... especially of the Pop Art tradition that lends itself to rapid production-line creations. There are, however, some fascinating exceptions such as Yun Fei Ji.

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## JBI

I don't think you are reading history clearly; Buddhism was clearly dominant, even amongst the lower classes, as variants of Buddhism that appealed specifically to uneducated, and lower class people became dominant; what Shinto is is not really a real doctrine until it becomes one as a political force; the Nihongi and the Kojiki are essentially readable as propaganda used to legitimate rule.


As for the Jomon period, the actual influence is vague, as Japanese art is based on riders who moved south through Korea into Japan - there is a direct line of influence in artistic style tracable to north of the former Koguryo kingdom of ancient Korea, and more north all the way into just south of Siberia, down toward Japan. The riders are most certainly the same on both sides of the border - what exists now in scholarship then is a fight between propaganda and history; the idea of a pure Japan or a Japanese Korea is merely a fallacy - there was, historically a mass migration; the earliest Japanese settlers seem to have been rooted in migrants coming north and moving South. The horse rider is essentially linkable to the continent directly, therefore displays with it a "non-Japanese" quality, in the sense that its trends are not rooted in an indigenous, self defined tradition of Japan, but rather a historical continental tribal tradition.



As it is though it doesn't matter; Japanese poetry, and literature for that matter, seems easily to translate into English where as Chinese seems more resistant. The question is, why is that so? why is it that Haiku is more adaptable than Fu or Ci, when the narrative quality of Li Bai in Pound worked well enough.

The answer is probably in exposure; the American government in particular poured great funding into Japanese studies around the time of the war and just after, whereas Chinese studies have always been a more esoteric endeavor, or one rooted in contemporary politics. The dominance of selected genre work, such as Confucian classics also probably slowed things down.

But what is clear is that the language used to translate Japanese could easily be adapted toward Chinese, with modifications, as the linguistic removal isn't so drastic, with the exception of form. It's just that a new idiom will eventually be made to rise, that will utilize English as a means of conveying thoughts, as has happened with English rendition of Japanese.

One must wait though.

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## JBI

BUMP, just checking to see if anyone else is interested, so I know whether to post more on here or not.

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## zowie86

> BUMP, just checking to see if anyone else is interested, so I know whether to post more on here or not.


Sure, just post here s'il vous plait.

And I was thinking of making some noise here as well.

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## DanielBenoit

This is a wonderful thread. I think I'll bump it with a poem by Wang Wei.


Deer Park Hermitage, tr. Chang Yin-nan & Lewis C. Walmsley

Through the deep woods, the slanting sunlight
Casts motley patterns on the jade-green mosses.
No glimpse of man in this lonely mountain,
Yet faint voices drift on the air.

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## JBI

Bump.

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## JBI

作者：刘禹锡
　　一
　　杨柳青青江水平，闻郎江上踏歌声。
　　东边日出西边雨，道是无晴却有晴．
　　二
　　山桃红花满上头，蜀江春水拍山流。
　　花红易衰似郎意，水流无限似侬愁。

Will write my own translation:
Bamboo Branch Songs

1

Green Willows, a river flowing through,
Hearing my man on the river singing;
To the East, the sun, 
------------To the West, hard rain,
Love as true as this weather's fine. 

2

Mountain top red with peach blossoms,
The gush of the Yangtze bursting below
Blossoms wither， like my man's love
The river flows, like my endless sorrow.

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## YesNo

> 作者：刘禹锡
> 　　一
> 　　杨柳青青江水平，闻郎江上踏歌声。
> 　　东边日出西边雨，道是无晴却有晴．
> 　　二
> 　　山桃红花满上头，蜀江春水拍山流。
> 　　花红易衰似郎意，水流无限似侬愁。
> 
> Will write my own translation:
> ...


I don't understand the poem, but here are some questions to keep the thread alive.

Do you mean "below" rather than "bellow"?

How do you go from 道是无晴却有晴 to "Love as true as this weather's fine"? 

I assume this is a Liu Yuxi 7-character poem. What would be an appropriate meter in English that might be used for these types of poems?

Do you have a link to other translations of this poem for comparison?

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## JBI

Yes, I meant below, as for the line, 道是 means It is said, and the second half is a pun, 晴-clear weather， 情-love. So the line can be read, it is said, not clear weather or clear weather, or with a pun not love or love,

As for metre, I just use free verse, since I do not think metrics can get any bit close - the original has a rhyme scheme, with tonal patterns, but I would never be able to get close to it in English without serious modification.

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## YesNo

> Yes, I meant below, as for the line, 道是 means It is said, and the second half is a pun, 晴-clear weather， 情-love. So the line can be read, it is said, not clear weather or clear weather, or with a pun not love or love,
> 
> As for metre, I just use free verse, since I do not think metrics can get any bit close - the original has a rhyme scheme, with tonal patterns, but I would never be able to get close to it in English without serious modification.


It is interesting how clear weather becomes love. I wouldn't have thought of that, but that might have been the poet's original intent.

The reason I mentioned meter is that I think it is possible to translate these classical poems into metered English poems because they are so short. Since the Chinese poems are often given to children to memorize, the form must be reasonably simple and melodic to recite. This also seems to be what the original intent of the thread was.

James Liu likes to use a metered line with as many accents in English as there are characters in Chinese. Frederick Turner (http://frederickturnerpoet.com/?page_id=210) uses something similar: as many iambic feet in English as there are characters, but I think both of these make the line too long and make it something that a child speaking English would not want to recite.

At the moment, I think common measure might be an appropriate English form to correspond with the 5-character classical Chinese forms, but I don't know what a 7-character form would match to.

Anyway, although I know you don't agree, I think a fitting form for translating the 5-character Chinese classical form into English would be something like what we get in the following:

Mary had a little lamb.
It's fleece was white as snow
And everywhere that Mary went
The lamb was sure to go.

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## JBI

I think a good part of the appeal for children is not the sound really but their parents not smacking them. As they say, 万般皆下品，唯有读书高 - All things are low, with only studying high (idiom), or the classic phrase of education 十年寒窗苦 - the bitterness of 10 years by a cold window - the idea is that you force educate to prepare for later life (the classic idea is that one is able to rise in the world simply from studying hard, which in many senses was the case). 

From my understanding, the sounds are catchy, so they stick, but that does not imply comprehension of what is in the poem.


As it is, I am trying to find new idioms - I read a few interesting translations and am contemplating trying something like that, but for the moment I think only free verse can catch any of the essence (though I am a terrible translator).

Back to the translation - the weather is hinted at by the previous line, about sun in the east, and rain in the west, the pun on the character 晴 then creates a comparison, asking, is the lover like the West, or the East, does he love me or not - I assume this is the standard reading, and all notes on the text have gestured to as much - it seems to fitting not to be, as the poem is clearly talking about love. But it poses a question - how to translate that?

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## JBI

On second thought, for seven character lines, it would be interesting to see some usage with either accentual verse, like anglo-saxon literature, that maintains the Caesura, or even Alexandrines, with the caesura in the middle. There is almost always, after all, a cesura after the 4th character, and perhaps a double or triple stress on each line can imitate to an extent the float of the tones.

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## JBI

Bump.

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## lawpark

JBI - you seem to like Stephen Owens' translation / anthology? 

I have not anything Chinese in English really, but thought having a handy reference in case I need to quote something in translation might help.

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## JBI

> JBI - you seem to like Stephen Owens' translation / anthology? 
> 
> I have not anything Chinese in English really, but thought having a handy reference in case I need to quote something in translation might help.


I think he is a good poet, and a good translator. I started with him when I couldn't read, now I have moved almost entirely to just reading primary texts. I still read his essays when they come up, but translation no longer is an issue for me.

If someone wanted something to quote in English though, one could do far worse than him.

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