# Reading > Forum Book Club >  April/Faulkner Book: The Sound and the Fury

## Scheherazade

We are reading _The Sound and the Fury_ in April. Please post your thoughts and questions on the book in this thread.



Book Club Procedures

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## Virgil

HoooraAAAAY!!!!!!!!!! I got my wish. Thanks all who voted.

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## Ryduce

I just checked it out today.

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## emily655321

I just discovered that the edition I bought also contains _As I Lay Dying_!! I'm so excited! Yay! I hadn't noticed, because the cover is so faded, but I checked in the back today because it seemed too thick for just _TSATF_, and there it was!

But that has nothing to do with _TSATF_.

First-time readers: Spark Notes. I cannot stress enough. Here, also, is a good commentary on the novel. (Be forewarned, it's one massive spoiler.) My edition also contains the Appendix by Faulkner himself, which is essentially just a geneology of the Compson family, but also outlines a lot of the story. If your copy has it, definitely read it first.

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## Ryduce

Faulkner always kicks my ***,but I'm exicted about trying TSATF again.Help from all of you would be highly appreciated.

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## chmpman

My American Lit. professor let us pick a book, out of three choices, and I picked TSATF. It'll be on the final but we won't get to discuss it in class. I'm a bit freaked out, I don't know what to expect on the final. I'm about 5/8 of the way through it, and I like it, but I'm not following the "geneology" very well. I'm planning on rereading some of it before my final, rather than Sparknotes. I can't stand spoilers.

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## Virgil

Just so everyone can avoid the helpless feeling that some have when reading TSATF for the first time I thought I'd give a little orientation. These thoughts are not organized, so I'll write them as I think them.

It is a novel of family, a dysfunctional family, the Compsons. There is the father Jason (III) and a mother Caroline whose maiden name is Bascomb. They have four children, Quentin, Candice (Caddy), Jason (IV), and Benjy (originally named Maury but changed to Benjamin because Caroline's brother's name is Maury and when the family realized that the child was retarded they didn't want the association with Caroline's brother). 

The novel is divided into four parts of four different days. Three of the days are of the Easter weekend in 1928. The fourth day is the day of Quentin's suicide on June 2, 1910. The first three parts are told in the voice (dramatic monologue) of the three brothers: Benjy (April 7, 1928), Quentin (June 2, 1910), and Jason IV (April 6, 1928). The fourth section is in third person, mostly limited to Dilsey's (the old black servant) point of view, and it takes place on Easter Sunday, (April 8, 1928). 

Each section presents it's own reading difficulties. All the sections flashback to previous times, so when a flashback occurs it does jar the reader. 

The first section is told through Benjy monologue, through the mind of a severely retarded man. His flashbacks are mostly connected to sensory experience. When a similar touch or sound recalls something similar from the past, his mind goes back to that experience. And Faulkner glides from one experience to another without warning, simulating Benjys mind.

I dont think you need to know exactly which scenes are what to appreciate the novel. There are handbooks which detail that if you are interested. I think you just need to keep in mind the different category of scenes. Benjys recalls can be divided into several categories, and this is according to me, so take it for what its worth.

Present:
With Luster (Dilseys grandson) mostly in a pasture that was sold to become a golf course.

From 1910 to Present:
References to Quentin's suicide, Jason III's death, and some others.

From 1905 to 1910
Scenes of Caddys promiscuity, her wedding, and Benjys castration.

From Benjys infancy to 1905 (born in 1898):
Damuddys (Carolines mother) death, his name change, and a cold Christmas. 

I hope this helps as a start. If anyone wishes, Ill do a second for the Quentin section.

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## Ryduce

30 pages through the first section and I'm pretty happy because I'm not confused at all,but by page 50 I'm lost.

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## Virgil

> 30 pages through the first section and I'm pretty happy because I'm not confused at all,but by page 50 I'm lost.


Ry - What passage are you stumbling on? Do you have the Vintage paperback edition? Who is in the scene that you're having trouble with?

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## Ryduce

This is what I know so far.........


Somebody died.
Luster is looking for a quarter to go to a show.
There on a golf course.
Caddie smells like trees.
Mrs. Patterson is having an affair???



I just realized I know nothing.

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## Virgil

> This is what I know so far.........
> 
> 
> Somebody died.
> Luster is looking for a quarter to go to a show.
> There on a golf course.
> Caddie smells like trees.
> Mrs. Patterson is having an affair???


Did you read my orientation above?

Somebody died: Three people die though the course of the novel: Quentin, Jason III, and Roskus, Dilsey's husband. [Edit: Damuddy also dies.]

Luster is looking for a quarter: yes, but not all that important to the story. When Luster is looking for that quarter, it just signals that Faulkner has shifted to the present.

They're on a golf course: Yes, it was the pasture owned by the Compson family that was sold to send Quentin to harvard. Notice that when they call for the golf caddy, it reminds Benjy of his sister.

Caddie smells like trees: Yes, this is how Benjy remembers his sister. But it probably contains more significance than that, and perhaps at some point we should discuss it.

Mrs. Patterson is having an affair: Yes, with Uncle Maury. I'm not sure that it's that significant. It tells us something about Maury and the Bascomb family.

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## bluevictim

> Somebody died.
> Luster is looking for a quarter to go to a show.
> There on a golf course.
> Caddie smells like trees.
> Mrs. Patterson is having an affair???


Besides the three people that Virgil mentioned, the death of Damuddy is also described (in flashback). I think this is probably the death you have in mind. Apologies to the book club for cheating a little and posting without having re-read the novel yet.

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## Virgil

> Besides the three people that Virgil mentioned, the death of Damuddy is also described (in flashback). I think this is probably the death you have in mind. Apologies to the book club for cheating a little and posting without having re-read the novel yet.


Oh, thanks. You are quite right.

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## emily655321

Oops, should really read all posts before I reply.  :Blush:

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## Riesa

> Just so everyone can avoid the helpless feeling that some have when reading TSATF for the first time I thought I'd give a little orientation. These thoughts are not organized, so I'll write them as I think them.


argggghhhh....I haven't finished yet! 

Is everyone else finished? There are bits that are very uniquely observant, for example, when he describes the old man and the mule which he sees from the train. p.57 of my copy, in June Second. I feel at times like I'm reading a poem, not a novel. and boy, does he like looong sentences.

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## Ryduce

Quentin and Miss Quentin
Jason and Mr.Jason
Maury and Uncle Maury




I always mix these people up.I know who they are and everything,but because there is no concept of time I always get disoriented with who they are and their actions.

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## emily655321

I know what you mean, Ryduce. Keeps you on your toes. The two Jason's are the most difficult, since both are at some point in the story the head of the household. It's easier to tell the Quentins apart, for instance, when one of them is wearing red lipstick.  :Tongue: 

RiesaLord, no I'm not finished. I'm about halfway through Quentin's chapter. He just bought the Italian girl a roll. I gather from Virgil's posts that he and I have both read it before.

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## Virgil

> argggghhhh....I haven't finished yet! 
> 
> Is everyone else finished? There are bits that are very uniquely observant, for example, when he describes the old man and the mule which he sees from the train. p.57 of my copy, in June Second. I feel at times like I'm reading a poem, not a novel. and boy, does he like looong sentences.


Yes, it is a very poetic novel. The narrative flow has been broken down to vignettes and so it feels like four stanzas of a poem. Riesa, have you read a Faulkner novel before? I really like Faulkner's sentences. They are different and I'm always amazed at how he captures a voice.

Yes, emily. I read this many years ago while an undergraduate. I just finished this reading yesterday and I loved it more than in college. This was not my favorite Faulkner novel back then, and while Light In August still is my favorite, this reading really made me appreciate TSATF. I'm going to re-read it again. If I have some time (and Lord knows lately I don't have much to myself) I'm going to go to the NY Public Library (main branch in Manhattan, which is outstanding) and do some critical research and see what some scholars say. I really want to know this book.

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## papayahed

I just finsihed the first chapter. why do you think it is that Caddie smells like trees? And why is it we can hear the roof and fire? What's that all about.

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## toddhill

Thanks for the intro, Virgil. And the heads up, Emily. I've been looking at sparknotes. Don't know if I should have waited until second reading though. I like to read a book through without any aids to get a first impression, then go back and use the helps. My Faulkner experience so far includes a couple readings of The Bear (quite some time ago) and some of his short stories. I wish I could keep up with you guys, but I think I'm going to just be learning from you on this one. Busy time--teaching, family, etc. The first section has been quite a trip. I'm having a little bit of a hard time with it being the perspective of a mentally handicapped person. When Benjy talks (moans) and when others relate to him, it's obvious that he is in that condition, but when we are inside his mind, he seems like a normal person. It doesn't seem consistent. That's bothering me a little. I'm wondering why Faulkner portrays all of these people as so dysfunctional, except for Dilsey. Why her as the one who's got it together? Todd

Papayahead, don't know about the roof and the fire, but Caddie...I think she probably smells like the trees because she's outdoors with Benjy a lot and the smell of the trees is the smell of nature, probably symbolizing innocence and purity. Later on I believe, after her immoral experiences, she stops smelling that way to Benjy.

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## emily655321

There is one episode, when Caddy's 14, where she stops smelling like trees, but it's because she uses perfume. I don't have time to write down the passage, but she realizes that's what's upsetting him, and has him give the bottle to Dilsey. I think it's the sweetest quote, it made me tear up:



> "We don't care for perfume, ourselves."


It shows just how selflessly devoted to Benjy she is; his happiness is her happiness.

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## Virgil

> Papayahead, don't know about the roof and the fire, but Caddie...I think she probably smells like the trees because she's outdoors with Benjy a lot and the smell of the trees is the smell of nature, probably symbolizing innocence and purity. Later on I believe, after her immoral experiences, she stops smelling that way to Benjy.


Certainly innocence. Emily points out the perfume smell as counterpoint. Also, when Quentin the young girl escapes out the window in the last section, climbing out the window, it is pointed out that the tree has a particular aroma, not just an ambigious smell of tree that Benjy associates. 

The fire confused me too. I think (and I could be wrong and when I re-read it I'll be more careful) it's Benjy's way of describing his castration.

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## papayahed

> Certainly innocence. Emily points out the perfume smell as counterpoint. Also, when Quentin the young girl escapes out the window in the last section, climbing out the window, it is pointed out that the tree has a particular aroma, not just an ambigious smell of tree that Benjy associates.


That's what I was thinking too, but then I think somewhere in there during Caddy's wedding she smelled like trees also, but at that point she wasn't innocent any long.

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## toddhill

Hmmm. I'm just speaking off the top of my head. I could be way off, but maybe the fact that she is getting married is a good thing, a pure thing, and so she smells like trees again. What do you think?

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## Ryduce

This book is like watching a movie with the scenes out of order.
It is not chronological or linear,but it is like a bunch of still shots jumbled together to create one giant image.

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## Virgil

> That's what I was thinking too, but then I think somewhere in there during Caddy's wedding she smelled like trees also, but at that point she wasn't innocent any long.


Oh realy, I didn't catch that.




> This book is like watching a movie with the scenes out of order.
> It is not chronological or linear,but it is like a bunch of still shots jumbled together to create one giant image.


Yeah, I like that analogy. That's why it seems so poetic like Riesa said.

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## emily655321

> Hmmm. I'm just speaking off the top of my head. I could be way off, but maybe the fact that she is getting married is a good thing, a pure thing, and so she smells like trees again. What do you think?


That's an interesting theory. I'm going to keep that in mind as I continue reading.

More analysis, less peanut-gallery tomorrow.  :Tongue:  I've been giving my post-it notes a workout in Quentin's section. No time just now, though.

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## Virgil

> I just finsihed the first chapter. why do you think it is that Caddie smells like trees? And why is it we can hear the roof and fire? What's that all about.


Hey, I just had an epiphany about the tree smell thing while I was walking my dog through the neighborhood just now. Trees are in bloom here, especially dogwood trees, which give off a particular aroma at this time of year. Today is Aprl 4, just a few days different from when the novel is set. So I imagine the same aromas from various tree types occur in Mississippi, if not more so than around me. So the tree smell is associated with spring (with all it's meanings of rebirth) and with April (ala Chaucer's Canterbury Tales or T.S. Eliot's Waste Land) and with Easter (it is the Holy Weekend) and with the risen Christ. Perhaps.

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## emily655321

Well, I wouldn't go quite so far as the risen Christ (I've learned to balk at the suggestion of Christ figures in literature), but the spring/Easter connection is a very intriguing one. How astute, Virgil!

And, no fair! Trees are blooming in NY already? It snowed today here in Vermont.  :Tongue: 

(And, uh... yeah, I'm still here. I wasn't lying when I said I had no time... now I have negative time.  :Blush: )

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## Virgil

> Well, I wouldn't go quite so far as the risen Christ (I've learned to balk at the suggestion of Christ figures in literature), but the spring/Easter connection is a very intriguing one. How astute, Virgil!
> 
> And, no fair! Trees are blooming in NY already? It snowed today here in Vermont. 
> 
> (And, uh... yeah, I'm still here. I wasn't lying when I said I had no time... now I have negative time. )


We can discuss whether Benjy is a Christ figure in the novel at some point. I believe it said he was 33 years old in the present time of the novel.

Coicindentally, emily, your post count as I write this is 3,333!

Yes our trees are blooming. I love spring.

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## Ryduce

This has got to be the greatest sentence ever.

"Once a ***** always a *****,what I say."

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## papayahed

> We can discuss whether Benjy is a Christ figure in the novel at some point. I believe it said he was 33 years old in the present time of the novel.
> 
> Coicindentally, emily, your post count as I write this is 3,333!
> 
> Yes our trees are blooming. I love spring.


oh, he is 33 isn't he?

There is a line somewhere in the book about the smell of dogwood or something or other - I'll have to fins it when I get home tonight.


So, why is it that Quentin's chapter is way more difficult then Benjy's??

I'm also noticing that there is mention of fire by Quentin as well.

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## toddhill

I think there are a lot more Christ figures in literature than many realize. The thing about a Christ figure is that it's not Christ. It's not going to be just like Christ or it would be Christ. It's just a figure. There are some parallels. Also, it's an interpretation of Christ, and there are many of those. So we can say Benjy is a Christ figure because there are enough clues there. Then we interpret what Faulkner is saying about and through that figure. I personally think he does function as a Christ figure. todd

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## Virgil

> I think there are a lot more Christ figures in literature than many realize. The thing about a Christ figure is that it's not Christ. It's not going to be just like Christ or it would be Christ. It's just a figure. There are some parallels. Also, it's an interpretation of Christ, and there are many of those. So we can say Benjy is a Christ figure because there are enough clues there. Then we interpret what Faulkner is saying about and through that figure. I personally think he does function as a Christ figure. todd


Great! Todd, I was going to say something to the same effect. Benjy is a person who draws compassion, the forever innocent. At least draws compassion for some.

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## papayahed

> Great! Todd, I was going to say something to the same effect. Benjy is a person who draws compassion, the forever innocent. At least draws compassion for some.


I've always thought of a christ figure as someone that is "scarificed" for the others, I haven't seen that yet. Unless it's the fact that he was born "special".. I dunno, give me a math problem please.


And that's another thing, did Faulkner intend to have the "smelling like trees" mean something? Is symbolism intentional?

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## emily655321

Do you think Faulkner was trying to be provocative by picturing Christ as an "idiot"?

The age of 33 and the Easter weekend would point to that comparison, but it disappoints me. I think there are, indeed, many Christ figures in literature, as well as an unlimited number of interpretations of characters who weren't intended as such. It's been done, and done, and done to death, and reads like a cop-out. Can't think of an original idea? Model your hero after Christ, or write an essay explaining why Holden Caulfield was like Christ... Plop Christ down in the context of modern society and somehow you're making an intellectual statement. Only trouble is, it's one a million other people have already made, and most of them were grasping at straws, too. It's like the literary equivalent of splatter paintings.

I'm not saying that's what Faulkner was doing. I'm sure it wasn't, since he didn't originally plan to publish _TSATF_; he was writing it for himself. But that is why the mention of Christ figures makes me cringe.

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## chmpman

What's the background on how TSATF got published, or how Faulkner decided to publish it?

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## emily655321

I can't find any sources that describe the publishing history, all I know is that Faulkner changed his mind once he finished the book, because it turned out to be such a personal success. There is mention made to his original motivation, following disillusionment with his publishers, in the page I linked to before:




> Before Faulkner wrote The Sound and the Fury, he had written a book which he thought was to be the book that would make his name as a writer. He wrote his publisher, I have written THE book, of which those other things were but foals. I believe it is the damdest best book youll look at this year, and any other publisher. That manuscript was Flags in the Dust, and it would not be published until eleven years after Faulkners death.
> The discouragement of having Flags turned down, and then severely cut by his friend Ben Wasson into what would be published as Sartoris, apparently led Faulkner to begin writing a book entirely for himself, and publishers be damned. That book, originally titled Twilight, was The Sound and the Fury. Later, Faulkner would say it was the novel he felt most tender toward because it had caused him the most grief and anguish.
> 
> http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~egjbp/faulkner/n-sf.html

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## toddhill

emily, i can see if you have been exposed to that, you would cringe. i personally haven't had that experience. it actually came as a surprise to me. a pleasant one. i guess i'm kind of like a kid with this stuff. everything is so new and exciting. i don't cringe yet, but...

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## Riesa

Back to Caddy smelling like trees, this line _"Caddy smelled like trees and like when she says we were asleep"_, this was repeated a couple of times, it bothered me, what does he mean?

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## chmpman

I think he's referring to the fact that he never really realizes that he is asleep, ever. He seems to associate her smelling like trees by his side, when they sleep as is related later, into his sleeping state. I was just rereading the first few pages and this line stuck out to me too.

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## Ryduce

I'm beginning to think we are over analyzing this.

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## Virgil

> Do you think Faulkner was trying to be provocative by picturing Christ as an "idiot"?


That is how some have read it. I don't agree. Like Todd pointed out, Benjy is a Christ-like figure, not a Christ. I think he brngs out the compasson in people, for those who can feel compasson. But there are probably multiple meanings going on.





> I'm not saying that's what Faulkner was doing. I'm sure it wasn't, since he didn't originally plan to publish _TSATF_; he was writing it for himself. But that is why the mention of Christ figures makes me cringe


Look, I would cringe too if I thought Holden Caufield was a Christ figure. Benjy is not the central character of the novel. He's there as a foil for the other characters, to show what they're made of. There is a difference.




> Back to Caddy smelling like trees, this line _"Caddy smelled like trees and like when she says we were asleep"_, this was repeated a couple of times, it bothered me, what does he mean?


I think it emphasizes the innocence of the love between the Benjy and Caddy. It counter points Quentin's lie (and perhaps sub-conscious desire) that he slept with his sister.

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## chmpman

> It counter points Quentin's lie (and perhaps sub-conscious desire) that he slept with his sister.


Damnit, you ruined the book for me. (jokes)

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## rabid reader

Just started tonight and finished the first part... I was alittle confused at first, then I began to realize that the italics were flashbacks... or more like chapters. I also got alittle lost with the two Quentins... I thought the brother got a sex change or something... lol. The last part that seemed bizzare was the how doing: "Disley said,
"Blah, Blah, Blah."

Why is the Disley said not in the same paragraphy

Well those are the few troubles I have experinced on day one.

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## Pendragon

Well, this post isn't going to win me any accolades anyway, so I'll keep it very brief. Faulkner's _The Sound and the Fury_ frankly is not my cup of tea. The prose seems stilted, and forced in places, and in others, downright dull. But you must remember I am more of a mystery/sci fi person than a classical reader, so my opinion may be somewhat biased. Still it reads more like a rough draft than a finished novel to me.  :Wink:

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## toddhill

I just had a former student write me and tell me how much she is hating reading Dickens. I have a friend who is a college lit prof and a borderline genius in my opinion, who loves Dickens. Personally, I'm not crazy about Dickens, but I see that as a fault in myself. If I'm used to doritos and cheetos and junk food, I'm going to hate vegetables. (Please don't take this analogy too far, and it is an extreme example.) Faulkner won the Nobel prize and I'll admit I don't appreciate some of his writing, but I try to withhold judgment because maybe I'm just not at the intellectual or artistic level of being able to fully appreciate him.

Anyway, back to the Christ figure stuff. I was just ruminating about it a little and I remembered a couple of things. The Green Mile is a wonderful story about a Christ figure. And he's not all there mentally. (The only Stephen King book I have read is his On Writing. I watched the movie The Green Mile and loved it so I think I want to try a few of King's novels.) Another thing I remembered is that certain Native American tribes considered mentally handicapped people to be sort of gods and they treated them with special dignity and reverence. I think we tend to be somewhat repulsed by the thought of a Benjy as a Christ figure, but it's not so strange or unusual.

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## papayahed

After reading all these posts about Christ figures it seems to me that the "Christ" or Christ-like" figure has such a wide definition that practically anybody can qualify. I'm with Emily on this one, sometimes an idiot is just an idiot.





> just had a former student write me and tell me how much she is hating reading Dickens. I have a friend who is a college lit prof and a borderline genius in my opinion, who loves Dickens. Personally, I'm not crazy about Dickens, but I see that as a fault in myself. If I'm used to doritos and cheetos and junk food, I'm going to hate vegetables. (Please don't take this analogy too far, and it is an extreme example.) Faulkner won the Nobel prize and I'll admit I don't appreciate some of his writing, but I try to withhold judgment because maybe I'm just not at the intellectual or artistic level of being able to fully appreciate him.


I don't want to start an arguement, but I completely disagree with this post. A bunch of snobs got together decided something was good - that doesn't mean it is good. It brings up the whole art being subject vs. objective bugaboo.

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## Ryduce

Jason's section is so clear and precise.He is such a brutally cold dude,but he really brings alot of the story together.I believe he is one of the finest characters in literature.

I am absoultely in love with this book!!!!!!!!

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## chmpman

As for being one of the finest characters in literature, don't you think he's a tad bit one-sided to be a truly great character? He demonstrates no internal conflict between good intentions and actions in reality. Now Odysseus; he, my friend, is a great character, and one that has stood the test of time.

Perhaps you can elaborate more on why you find him such a fine character?

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## Ryduce

> As for being one of the finest characters in literature, don't you think he's a tad bit one-sided to be a truly great character? He demonstrates no internal conflict between good intentions and actions in reality. Now Odysseus; he, my friend, is a great character, and one that has stood the test of time.
> 
> Perhaps you can elaborate more on why you find him such a fine character?




I didn't necessarily mean it in a sense that he is an incredibly complex or a multidimensional character,but I really enjoy his role in the novel.Perhaps there is some conflict there though,because even though he is motivated by his own bitterness about the family he is still taking care of his Mom.Granted he is stealing from her,but I feel there is more to it than that.

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## papayahed

Not to change the subject or anything, but I went to the Barnes and Noble website, they have reading group guides. Generally I don't bring them up but this time one of them has me wondering. Caddie seems to be a central figure throughout the book, why doesn't she have a voice?

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## emily655321

Faulkner himself addressed this, actually (once again, on the page I've linked to twice so far on this thread  :Tongue: ).


> "I tried first to tell it with one brother, and that wasnt enough. That was Section One. I tried it with another brother, and that wasnt enough. That was Section Two. I tried the third brother, because Caddy was still to me too beautiful and too moving to reduce her to telling what was going on, that it would be more passionate to see her through somebody elses eyes, I thought. And that failed and I tried myselfthe fourth section to tell what happened, and I still failed."
> 
> http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~egjbp/faulkner/n-sf.html





> Faulkner won the Nobel prize and I'll admit I don't appreciate some of his writing, but I try to withhold judgment because maybe I'm just not at the intellectual or artistic level of being able to fully appreciate him.


I'm afraid I don't agree with this, either. I think when people think this way, it often leads to the sort of mass-worship of authors or artists that made you question your own judgment in the first place. Just because someone has a reputation of genius, it doesn't mean you should jump on the band wagon. If you don't like it, don't assume it's because you're somehow not good enough to appreciate it. Sometimes things are just overrated. Sometimes something just isn't, as Pen said, your cup of tea. I don't like Faulkner, either. I don't like Hemingway. It doesn't mean they're bad, it means I don't enjoy them. I think _Moby Dick_ is a load of poorly written c---, and I rail against it constantly.  :Tongue:  I tend to do this too much, with an unconscious intent to balance the scales of opinion (is it still unconscious if you realize you're doing it?). Anyway, there's plenty of modern art that's stinking up museum walls because people are afraid of questioning the talent of someone who might become the next Van Gogh. They think, "If I say I don't like it, it's an admission that I'm too simple to understand it." No, don't fall into that way of thinking. It does not benefit the common good.

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## Virgil

> Not to change the subject or anything, but I went to the Barnes and Noble website, they have reading group guides. Generally I don't bring them up but this time one of them has me wondering. Caddie seems to be a central figure throughout the book, why doesn't she have a voice?


That's a great question. I read that Faulkner felt uncomfortable in women's voices. But I think here it not having her voice makes the novel rise to a higher level. Caddie, arguably I admit, can be considerd the central character of the novel. The three brothers are all defined by their relationship to her. Benjy in his attachment to her; Quentin in his bond with her; Jason in his repulsion ("once a ***** always a *****" is a great line!) of her. I think not having her voice allows us to see various perspectives of her, always changing based on who the eyes we're looking through.


Separate question: How come Scher is not involved in our discussions? I know she wanted to read this novel. You who, Scher, where ever you are, what are your thoughts?

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## ishicourt

i read _the sound and the fury_ a few years ago and it is superb. one of my favourite books of all time--if not my all-time favourite.  :Smile: 

if it helps at all, faulkner once remarked that he made the whole book based on one image. that image was of a young girl, with mud on her underwear, climbing a tree to peer through a window where a funeral was taking place. the whole book is about capturing that image, and faulkner later considered the novel a failure because he believed he failed to capture that image. caddie lacks a voice because she is not a character so much as an idealized and unattainable idea. giving her a voice would soil her.

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## papayahed

I'm only partially through Quentin's section so I'm not sure if this is addressed later in the book but was Caddie as devoted to the other brothers as she was to Benjy?

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## Virgil

> I'm only partially through Quentin's section so I'm not sure if this is addressed later in the book but was Caddie as devoted to the other brothers as she was to Benjy?


Her and Quentin had a special bond. Let me know what you make of it. Jason and Caddie are just then opposite.

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## Ryduce

Luster totally reminds me of Buckwheat from the Little Rascals.

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## chmpman

What do you guys make of Quentin and what happens to him as an expression of modernity on a person with a relatively provincial background? With his attending Harvard I wonder if Faulkner is saying something about what the forces of modernity can do to an already conflicted individual.

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## Virgil

> What do you guys make of Quentin and what happens to him as an expression of modernity on a person with a relatively provincial background?


I don't know if the provinciaal background has anything to do with it. Quentin is a pretty sophisticated kid, don't you think? His problem seems to be not coming to terms with his father. Quentin is idealistic, perhaps a throwback to the modern world. His father is nihilistic. I can't quite yet articulate the relationship, but it's this conflict that drives (perhaps among other things) Quentin to suicide. 




> With his attending Harvard I wonder if Faulkner is saying something about what the forces of modernity can do to an already conflicted individual.


I think the central theme of the novel is locked up with the individual coming to terms with modernity.




> Luster totally reminds me of Buckwheat from the Little Rascals.


  :FRlol:  Ry, will you get serious.  :FRlol:

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## Ryduce

Sorry I couldn't help it.

I don't think that Quentin has incestuous feelings towards his sister.I think he is ashamed of the fact that he is a virgin himself.I remember him having a conversation with his father about virginity,and his father telling him it was a made up concept.I think Caddy's promiscuity drives him kind of crazy.

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## chmpman

I got a vibe about the incestuous feelings and I plan to reread that part to see if I can sort out why I got that idea.

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## papayahed

> Sorry I couldn't help it.
> 
> I don't think that Quentin has incestuous feelings towards his sister.I think he is ashamed of the fact that he is a virgin himself.I remember him having a conversation with his father about virginity,and his father telling him it was a made up concept.I think Caddy's promiscuity drives him kind of crazy.


That's the feeling I got also, and if he said he had sex with Caddie it would prove he wasn't a virgin.

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## emily655321

I get the impression that Quentin has serious ownership issues with Caddy. He wants to control her completely, and this obsessive thinking is so deeply engrained in him that it becomes enraveled with everything else he thinks about, which, for a teenage boy, is bound to include sex. But his lie about incest is also the result of his confused attempts to restore honor to his family. Quentin has an instinctive need to hold together a disintegrating family that was once very important, and he becomes caught up on Caddy's "honor" as a symbol and focal point of that mission. But once that is gone, it drives him into a panic. If he can make it seem as though she hasn't been running around town, that's one step, but to do so he must construct an even less acceptable scenario. If he can't take the dishonor away, he can at least link the two of them to the same dishonor, and thereby regain the sense of control over her which has hitherto supported his fragile ego. Somewhere along the line, Quentin's desperate attempt to maintain honor through Caddy's virginity mutated into an obsession with controlling Caddy herself, and his very sense of self became dependent on her. By the time she cast off that honor, Quentin's focus had shifted completely from the theme of honor to his obsession with her, so much so that the idea of mutual dishonor was more appealing to him than maintaining his own honor separate from her. When he finally lost her through marriage, his sense of self was lost as well, and all he had lived for. His father's dismissal of his son's despair as "temporary" (Quentin keeps repeating this word in disbelief during his father's lecture to him) only furthers this sense of despair, and his depression takes over completely from there.

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## Virgil

> I get the impression that Quentin has serious ownership issues with Caddy. He wants to control her completely, and this obsessive thinking is so deeply engrained in him that it becomes enraveled with everything else he thinks about, which, for a teenage boy, is bound to include sex.


I don't know if I agree here. I'm also not sure what you mean by ownership. What would you expect an older brother to do about his sixteenish year old promiscuous sister back in 1910? 




> But his lie about incest is also the result of his confused attempts to restore honor to his family.


But wouldn't the thought of his incest, if true, be even more disgraceful? How does that lie restore honor?




> Quentin has an instinctive need to hold together a disintegrating family that was once very important, and he becomes caught up on Caddy's "honor" as a symbol and focal point of that mission.


I agree completely here.




> But once that is gone, it drives him into a panic. If he can make it seem as though she hasn't been running around town, that's one step, but to do so he must construct an even less acceptable scenario. If he can't take the dishonor away, he can at least link the two of them to the same dishonor, and thereby regain the sense of control over her which has hitherto supported his fragile ego. Somewhere along the line, Quentin's desperate attempt to maintain honor through Caddy's virginity mutated into an obsession with controlling Caddy herself, and his very sense of self became dependent on her. By the time she cast off that honor, Quentin's focus had shifted completely from the theme of honor to his obsession with her, so much so that the idea of mutual dishonor was more appealing to him than maintaining his own honor separate from her. When he finally lost her through marriage, his sense of self was lost as well, and all he had lived for. His father's dismissal of his son's despair as "temporary" (Quentin keeps repeating this word in disbelief during his father's lecture to him) only furthers this sense of despair, and his depression takes over completely from there.


So you're saying the reason of his suicide was because of Caddie. I'm not convinced, nor have I put together a comprehensive reason for the suicide yet. I'll return to it. You also seem to be saying that sub-consciously he does want to sleep with her. I know I brought that up earlier, but I'm not sure I believe that either. 


While we're on the Quentin section, what is the point of the the little Italian girl and her brother? And why does Faulkner pick an Italian as the ethnicity?

----------


## Basil

> But wouldn't the thought of his incest, if true, be even more disgraceful? How does that lie restore honor?


I think this passage bears quoting (formatted for clarity):

*and i:* you dont believe i am serious 
*and he:* i think you are too serious to give me any cause for alarm you wouldnt have felt driven to the expedient of telling me you had committed incest otherwise 
*and i:* i wasnt lying i wasnt lying 
*and he:* you wanted to sublimate a piece of natural human folly into a horror and then exorcise it with truth 
*and i:* it was to isolate her out of the loud world so that it would have to flee us of necessity and then the sound of it would be as though it had never been 
*and he:* did you try to make her do it 
*and i:* i was afraid to i was afraid she might and then it wouldnt have done any good but if i could tell you we did it would have been so and then the others wouldnt be so and then the world would roar away

The story of incest would achieve several objectives. It would transform _Caddy that blackguard Caddy_ into an innocent victim, unable to withstand the seductive sexual advances of her own brother, as well as eliminate "the others"; it would elevate Quentin to the role of Byronic hero (unvirgin) whose unsatiable sexual appetite leads him to take even the most forbidden fruit with impunity; and finally it transforms the Compson saga into a kind of Greek tragedy as opposed to the sad decline in fortunes it most resembles. I read an article once about Faulkner's treatment of incest, and one of the interesting points made by the author was that the different types of incest have received different treatment in literature throughout the years. Parent-child incest (usually father-daughter) is almost always portrayed as negative, the oppressive father representing the state imposing his will upon the innocent; whereas sibling incest has often been portrayed in a positive light, particularly by the Romantics, as a sort of idealistic--almost utopian--type of love. So, in Quentin's eyes, the lie of incest creates a narrative more pleasing than the truth.

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## Virgil

That's interesting, Basil. So you're saying he's trying to absorbed the fault and release Caddie from guilt. I think I would partially agree with this. Incest is still a pretty horrible thing. I don't know it matters what the Romantics thought. As for Greek tradgey, well is that what Quentin is thinking? I'm not sure I see that anywhere. What would be more disgraceful to a family: a promiscuous daughter or children who commit incest? Although I still think it's Quentin's relationship with his father that drives him to suicide.

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## Pendragon

> Faulkner himself addressed this, actually (once again, on the page I've linked to twice so far on this thread ).I'm afraid I don't agree with this, either. I think when people think this way, it often leads to the sort of mass-worship of authors or artists that made you question your own judgment in the first place. Just because someone has a reputation of genius, it doesn't mean you should jump on the band wagon. If you don't like it, don't assume it's because you're somehow not good enough to appreciate it. Sometimes things are just overrated. Sometimes something just isn't, as Pen said, your cup of tea. I don't like Faulkner, either. I don't like Hemingway. It doesn't mean they're bad, it means I don't enjoy them. I think _Moby Dick_ is a load of poorly written c---, and I rail against it constantly.  I tend to do this too much, with an unconscious intent to balance the scales of opinion (is it still unconscious if you realize you're doing it?). Anyway, there's plenty of modern art that's stinking up museum walls because people are afraid of questioning the talent of someone who might become the next Van Gogh. They think, "If I say I don't like it, it's an admission that I'm too simple to understand it." No, don't fall into that way of thinking. It does not benefit the common good.


Let me stir the pot again here, to comment on something Emily has brought up. Do I consider myself *incapable* of understanding Faulkner, so I dislike the writing? Hardly. I read at college level before Third Grade. I just know what I find to be interesting and what I find to be dull. (By the way, Emily, I second your opinion on _Moby Dick_). Emily compares the writing process to art, a great comparison. If I don't like a Pollack painting does that mean I'm somehow stupid? I think not. I just prefer a painting of something more natural, not dribbles of paint on a canvas.

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## emily655321

> What would you expect an older brother to do about his sixteenish year old promiscuous sister back in 1910?


I don't believe most of them went off their nut and attempted to make their father believe they'd committed incest. Quentin's problems run a lot deeper than your average older brother.


> Originally Posted by emily655321
> 
> But his lie about incest is also the result of his confused attempts to restore honor to his family.
> 
> 
> But wouldn't the thought of his incest, if true, be even more disgraceful? How does that lie restore honor?


I actually address that question in my post. Here:


> Somewhere along the line, Quentin's desperate attempt to maintain honor through Caddy's virginity mutated into an obsession with controlling Caddy herself, and his very sense of self became dependent on her. By the time she cast off that honor, Quentin's focus had shifted completely from the theme of honor to his obsession with her, so much so that the idea of mutual dishonor was more appealing to him than maintaining his own honor separate from her.


It began in an attempt to restore honor in the traditional sense, but his obsession warped his idea of honor.


> So you're saying the reason of his suicide was because of Caddie....You also seem to be saying that sub-consciously he does want to sleep with her.


No, perhaps I wasn't clear. If Quentin committed suicide, it was because he was psychologically disturbed, not because Caddy ran around, nor because his father was unsympathetic. External factors are not the root cause of any suicide. Quentin became obsessed with Caddy because he was disturbed, not the other way around. What followed acted as a series of triggers, and in that way Caddy did _trigger_ his suicide. But the key to remember in any suicide is that if it wasn't one thing, it would be another. Quentin's mind had a need to be obsessed, and Caddy was just what it latched onto.

I don't at all believe that sexual attraction was the cause of Quentin's obsession with Caddy. As Basil very astutely quoted (thank you, Basil), "_i was afraid to i was afraid she might and then it wouldnt have done any good but if i could tell you we did it would have been so..._" If Quentin had wanted to have sex with Caddy, he would have done it. He had multiple opportunities alone with her, and he was able to overpower hertherein lie the mountains of significance in all the times he holds Caddy's wrists and says, "Stop I'm stronger than you stop." But, as he tells his father, sex wouldn't matter if nobody knew about it. In fact, it would be best if it _didn't_ happen, but people thought it did. So there is a direct admission from Quentin that he didn't actually want to have sex with Caddy; as he says, he wanted to do something _so horrible_ that the rest of the world would avoid them completely and he could have his little sister all to himself.


> While we're on the Quentin section, what is the point of the the little Italian girl and her brother? And why does Faulkner pick an Italian as the ethnicity?


The little girl episode 1) establishes Quentin as a sympathetic character, where otherwise his behavior toward Caddy could be misconstrued as that of an abusive and domineering brother. 2) It demonstrates his deep need for a little sister figure. That part Faulkner is a bit heavy-handed with, I think, what with the relentless repetition of the term "sister" (his first words to her are "Hello, sister"), and the flashbacks that often follow close on the heels of that term, but this is perhaps less Faulkner's assertion to the reader than it is Quentin's assertion to himself. He's "lost" one sister, so he temporarily adopts anotherone who embodies complete innocence and dependence upon him, even to the point of not talking and following him like a shadow. She's his ideal.

I don't know that there's necessarily significance to her being Italian. Perhaps it's to show that Quentin isn't a bigot, in contrast to the people he meets who say, "Foreigners," disparragingly (as well as to Jason's chapter, later, in which he is terribly cruel to Dilsey and her family). In this way Quentin's kindness and respectfulness is reinforced. That's just a guess of mine, though.




> The story of incest would achieve several objectives. It would transform Caddy that blackguard Caddy into an innocent victim, unable to withstand the seductive sexual advances of her own brother, as well as eliminate "the others"; it would elevate Quentin to the role of Byronic hero (unvirgin) whose unsatiable sexual appetite leads him to take even the most forbidden fruit with impunity; and finally it transforms the Compson saga into a kind of Greek tragedy as opposed to the sad decline in fortunes it most resembles.


I agree with all of this, I think you've put it very well. The idea of Greek tragedy is one that hadn't occurred to me at all, but which seems to fit perfectly. It's a great parallel for the imperial air of Southern aristocracy, with all the import it puts on family, and the subsequent deterioration and fall of that system. And your point about Quentin's attempt to turn irrevocable family embarrassment into a more grandiose family tragedy hits on what I was trying to say before.




> As for Greek tradgey, well is that what Quentin is thinking? I'm not sure I see that anywhere.


I don't think it's what Quentin's thinking, but rather what Faulkner was thinking when he wrote Quentin. Quentin is an unwitting vehicle for this idea.

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## papayahed

> The story of incest would achieve several objectives. It would transform _Caddy that blackguard Caddy_ into an innocent victim, unable to withstand the seductive sexual advances of her own brother, as well as eliminate "the others"; it would elevate Quentin to the role of Byronic hero (unvirgin) whose unsatiable sexual appetite leads him to take even the most forbidden fruit with impunity; and finally it transforms the Compson saga into a kind of Greek tragedy as opposed to the sad decline in fortunes it most resembles. I read an article once about Faulkner's treatment of incest, and one of the interesting points made by the author was that the different types of incest have received different treatment in literature throughout the years. Parent-child incest (usually father-daughter) is almost always portrayed as negative, the oppressive father representing the state imposing his will upon the innocent; whereas sibling incest has often been portrayed in a positive light, particularly by the Romantics, as a sort of idealistic--almost utopian--type of love. So, in Quentin's eyes, the lie of incest creates a narrative more pleasing than the truth.



I'd agree with this also. I can't help but feel that Quentins "obsession" with Caddie has more to do with how he is percieved (being a virgin) then simply being obsessed with Caddie. 

If Quentin was that obsessed with Caddie, wouldn't he have gone looking for her after she ran off, and how could he have possibly packed up and headed up north to school if the obsession was that great. And why wait til the end of the year to commit suicide?

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## emily655321

> And why wait til the end of the year to commit suicide?


Quentin puts a lot of importance on finishing out the school year because of the guilt he feels for Benjy's pasture being sold.

_...I have sold Benjy's pasture and I can be dead in Harvard Caddy said in the caverns and the grottoes of the sea tumbling peacefully to the wavering tides because Harvard is such a fine sound forty acres is no high price for a fine sound. A fine dead sound we will swap Benjy's pasture for a fine dead sound._

Quentin knows long before he kills himself that sending him to Harvard will prove a waste of money and effort. The clock is already ticking (no pun intended... all right, bad pun intended). His father encourages him to go up to Massachusetts to forget about Caddy, and he dutifully obeys, but it's very likely he's already planning his suicide. He also dutifully completes the year, so that at least Benjy's pasture (rather, the money gotten from it) will be put to full use. Like everything else in Quentin's thought processes, it makes no logical sense, but there is great emotional importance in doing it in exacting detail. (This is one of the aspects of the suicidal mindset that Faulkner hits staggeringly spot-on.)

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## Virgil

> I don't believe most of them went off their nut and attempted to make their father believe they'd committed incest. Quentin's problems run a lot deeper than your average older brother.


Yes, aand I still think the father is the problem.



> If Quentin committed suicide, it was because he was psychologically disturbed, not because Caddy ran around, nor because his father was unsympathetic. External factors are not the root cause of any suicide.


Yes, in real life. But Faulkner has to supply a rationale for the actions in the novel. Unless Faulkner is interested in understanding mental illness (and I don't think that's what this novel is about) then he's obligated to show cause for Q's actions.



> Quentin became obsessed with Caddy because he was disturbed, not the other way around.


Ok, then why was he disturbed? His father?



> I don't at all believe that sexual attraction was the cause of Quentin's obsession with Caddy. As Basil very astutely quoted (thank you, Basil), "_i was afraid to i was afraid she might and then it wouldnt have done any good but if i could tell you we did it would have been so..._" If Quentin had wanted to have sex with Caddy, he would have done it. He had multiple opportunities alone with her, and he was able to overpower her


Well, that sounds like rape, not sex.



> But, as he tells his father, sex wouldn't matter if nobody knew about it. In fact, it would be best if it _didn't_ happen, but people thought it did. So there is a direct admission from Quentin that he didn't actually want to have sex with Caddy; as he says, he wanted to do something _so horrible_ that the rest of the world would avoid them completely and he could have his little sister all to himself.The little girl episode 1) establishes Quentin as a sympathetic character, where otherwise his behavior toward Caddy could be misconstrued as that of an abusive and domineering brother. 2) It demonstrates his deep need for a little sister figure. That part Faulkner is a bit heavy-handed with, I think, what with the relentless repetition of the term "sister" (his first words to her are "Hello, sister"), and the flashbacks that often follow close on the heels of that term, but this is perhaps less Faulkner's assertion to the reader than it is Quentin's assertion to himself. He's "lost" one sister, so he temporarily adopts anotherone who embodies complete innocence and dependence upon him, even to the point of not talking and following him like a shadow. She's his ideal.


Very good. I completely agree with this.



> I don't know that there's necessarily significance to her being Italian. Perhaps it's to show that Quentin isn't a bigot, in contrast to the people he meets who say, "Foreigners," disparragingly (as well as to Jason's chapter, later, in which he is terribly cruel to Dilsey and her family). In this way Quentin's kindness and respectfulness is reinforced. That's just a guess of mine, though.


I think the significance is to show the contrast between old world people (who have a reputation for honor) and with the new world and with what he's failed in doing.




> _...I have sold Benjy's pasture and I can be dead in Harvard Caddy said in the caverns and the grottoes of the sea tumbling peacefully to the wavering tides because Harvard is such a fine sound forty acres is no high price for a fine sound. A fine dead sound we will swap Benjy's pasture for a fine dead sound._
> 
> Quentin knows long before he kills himself that sending him to Harvard will prove a waste of money and effort. The clock is already ticking (no pun intended... all right, bad pun intended). His father encourages him to go up to Massachusetts to forget about Caddy, and he dutifully obeys, but it's very likely he's already planning his suicide. He also dutifully completes the year, so that at least Benjy's pasture (rather, the money gotten from it) will be put to full use. Like everything else in Quentin's thought processes, it makes no logical sense, but there is great emotional importance in doing it in exacting detail. (This is one of the aspects of the suicidal mindset that Faulkner hits staggeringly spot-on.)


But it's not put to full use. He doesn't graduate. He kills himself and so his whole education is a waste of money, whether he finishes the year or not.

One thing we should discuss is the theme of loss. It's everywhere in the novel. This is off the top of my head, but here are the losses that I can think of off the top of my head:

Benjy: his pasture, Caddie, his testicles 
Quentin: his honor, his education, his life.
Jason: money, relationships
Caddie: innocence, virginity, her daughter, her family

Would anyone like to add to this?




> I get the impression that Quentin has serious ownership issues with Caddy. He wants to control her completely, and this obsessive thinking is so deeply engrained in him that it becomes enraveled with everything else he thinks about, which, for a teenage boy, is bound to include sex.


You know, emily, after going back and relooking at Quentin's interaction with Caddie, I'm going to reverse myself and say you are right. I still don't think ownership is the right word (actually I still don't know how to understand the word as you apply it here), but I do think controling is very apt. Q's interaction with the little Italian girl makes me think he wants to go back to his childhood relationship with Caddie. He doesn't want time--the great theme of the novel--to move on. He wants to freeze in that childhood, innocent state, and so his virginity. And so also the symbol of the stopped (frozen) watch. And so he's trying to control her and his environment from moving forward, time-wise.

BTW (I'm going to blush as I say this  :Blush: ) does anyone think that his jumping into the river is sort of symbolic of his losing his virginity, entering a wet slit (vagina-like fissure). I'm sorry. I'm still blushing, but it had to be said.

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## emily655321

Well, water is often used to symbolize the womb. And we all know how Faulkner loves his symbols... I guess you'd have to ask him.  :Biggrin: 

By "ownership," I really just meant control; that he wanted authority over her. She was _his_ sister, and in that way he felt she belonged to him.


> Q's interaction with the little Italian girl makes me think he wants to go back to his childhood relationship with Caddie. He doesn't want time--the great theme of the novel--to move on. He wants to freeze in that childhood, innocent state, and so his virginity. And so also the symbol of the stopped (frozen) watch. And so he's trying to control her and his environment from moving forward, time-wise.


I agree with you here.

I certainly get the impression that the loss of virginity, as with his incest story, is more a matter of outward show for Quentin, rather than inward desire. He's more embarrassed of his virginity than he is sexually driven.

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## papayahed

> By "ownership," I really just meant control; that he wanted authority over her. She was _his_ sister, and in that way he felt she belonged to him.I agree with you here.


I think also, that more so then control - Quentin wanted Caddy to fit into his notion of what a southern girl should be, the standards of the old south. (hmmm... I guess that's what control is huh?)

I wonder why there is no flashbacks of Quentin interacting with Jason? The only time Quentin mentions Jason is to say "Let him go to Harvard" And that's another thing, they sold the pasture to pay for the first year of Harvard. How were they going to pay for the second year?

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## Ryduce

In the final section of the story Dilsey says something along the the lines of,"Ise sees de beginning,and now Ise sees de ending."



What does she mean by this????

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## Virgil

You know, as I think of it, all three brothers are trying to control Caddy in their way. At first I thought that Caddy was supposed to be just as screwed up as the brothers, but maybe I'm reading into that. Perhaps Faulkner intended a different impression. She's very promiscuous for a sixteen (I think) in 1910. [Sidenote, that's too promiscuous for me in this day an age, but I'm old fashion.] But other Faulkner female characters in other novels are also sexual at a young age, with faulkner's approval. Is Caddy intended to be a fertility goddess archetype? Perhaps Faulkner thinks she's not screwed up. What do others think?

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## Ryduce

I don't think Caddy was messed up at all.She was kind of a whore,but hey,it happens.The thing is that all the people around her were screwed up in thier own individual ways.Her mother wallowed in self pity which ultimately led to her father drinking himself to death.I believe that lack of parental figures led her to be the center of her brother's universe.She never consciously intends to screw up her brothers,but thier own individual flaws lead to the corruption of the entire family.

Jason's flaw=His unwillingness to let go of the fact he didn't get his promised job.

Quentin's flaw=His obsessiveness over his sisters purity.

Benji's flaw=His mental disability.

Dilsey and the servants flaw=Thier race.

All these flaws collaborate to create the ultimate corruption of The Compsons.

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## emily655321

What _isn't_ Jason's flaw?  :Tongue:  I think the job is the least of his problems. He's selfish, cruel, violent, narcissistic, racist, misogynistic, a thief... am I missing anything? (Actually, he reminds me a lot of my brother. Except for the thief part.)

How is Dilsey's race a flaw? I know what you mean, that in their time it held them back, but as I see it Faulkner showed them to be the cornerstone of the household. The "un-flawed" characters. The Bascombs and Compsons led to their own downfall, but I feel like Dilsey and her family kept the house running much longer than it would have were they not there.

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## Virgil

> What _isn't_ Jason's flaw?  I think the job is the least of his problems. He's selfish, cruel, violent, narcissistic, racist, misogynistic, a thief... am I missing anything? (Actually, he reminds me a lot of my brother. Except for the thief part.)
> 
> How is Dilsey's race a flaw? I know what you mean, that in their time it held them back, but as I see it Faulkner showed them to be the cornerstone of the household. The "un-flawed" characters. The Bascombs and Compsons led to their own downfall, but I feel like Dilsey and her family kept the house running much longer than it would have were they not there.


I too don't see any flaws in Dilsey. In fact I see heroism, endurance, striving to hold the house together, the true mother, the true heart and moral center of the book. I frankly love the woman. We don't quite see family in great detail, but in what we see it is in contrast to the Compsons.

Emily - That's some brother you have! I hope you're exaggerating.

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## papayahed

> What _isn't_ Jason's flaw?  I think the job is the least of his problems. He's selfish, cruel, violent, narcissistic, racist, misogynistic, a thief... am I missing anything? (Actually, he reminds me a lot of my brother. Except for the thief part.)


Holy Carp, I just started Jason's chapter, I was just going to call him a ****er but you've summed it up nicely.

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## Riesa

I think the most telling bit about Jason is his burning of the tickets. What an ***. 
I was thinking about the difference between Caddie and Quentin, her daughter, perhaps Caddie was promiscuous by choice and Quentin felt forced into it, by Jason's lack of giving her the 'little things' in life both Caddie and Caroline begged of him. Hence her proclamation at the forced dinner, "if I'm bad it's because of you". What do y'all think? Benjy and Caddie's relationship doesn't seem so innocent to me, but maybe I'm reading into it, but why does Faulkner make him have to be gelded? Why was Benjy chasing down a little girl, if she doesn't somehow remind him of Caddie? moan, moan, moan. hmmm.

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## Virgil

> why does Faulkner make him have to be gelded? Why was Benjy chasing down a little girl, if she doesn't somehow remind him of Caddie? moan, moan, moan. hmmm.


I think you didn't catch what exactly happened when Benjy went after the girl. I didn't at first either. He was responding to her as if she were Caddie, affectionate love, but everyone intepreted it his grasping as Benjy expressing sexual/rape feelings for that girl. And so everyone thought best to castrate him, and he not being able to explain/express what he felt is the irony. Not being able to communicate is another theme. The sound and the fury.

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## papayahed

Did I read that correctly that Quentin threatened Dalton Ames and told him to leave town?

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## Riesa

He threatened to kill him, and tried to beat him up, but failed. I'm not sure about him saying to leave town, but I think so. He fainted, I remember.

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## Ryduce

I was simply saying that because of her race, Dilsey's acts of goodness and heroism are insignificant.Her altruistic nature has no merit in Southern society because to outsiders she is just thier nigger servant.

And Jason isn't so bad.My Father makes him look like Santa Claus.

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## Riesa

Jason did say the only thing in the book that made me laugh: _"Blood, I says, governors and generals. It's a damn good thing we never had any kings and presidents; we'd all be down there at Jackson chasing butterflies."_  but that doesn't mean he's not still selfish and cruel.

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## Ryduce

Selfish.....yes.


Cruel.....I didn't think so.

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## Virgil

Ry - You don't think burning up the tickets right in fron of Luster was cruel?

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## Ryduce

I though it was sort of mean,but in comparison to the cruelty going on in modern society it was tame.Jason's a big ol' teddy bear.

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## emily655321

No, the tickets are bad. But this is worse:


> ...I saw her standing on the corner under the light and I told Mink to drive close to the walk and when I said Go on, to give the team a bat. Then I took the raincoat off of her and held her to the window and Caddy saw her and sort of jumped forward.
> 
> "Hit 'em, Mink!" I says, and Mink gave them a cut and we went past her like a fire engine. "Now get on that train like you promised," I says. I could see her running after us through the back window. "Hit 'em again," I says, "Let's get on home." When we turned the corner she was still running.
> 
> And so I counted the money again that night and put it away, and I didn't feel so bad.


This is after having forced Caddy to pay him a hundred dollars just to see Quentin, then driving around in the dark just so she'd have to wait even longer in the rain. The last sentence suggests that this abuse and subsequent financial gain had a therapeutic effect on his mood, which had been soured earlier by Caddy showing up unexpected at their father's funeral, of whose death she wasn't even notified and had to read about by chance in the paper.

Ry, others may be worse than Jason, and I'm very sorry and I don't want to get into that. But relativity of badness doesn't make Jason any better.

Riesa, I agree that Jason's chapter has some very funny lines. Faulkner has a very dark, wry wit. Besides Jason's own funny statements, I feel at times that Faulkner uses Jason's own words to poke fun at him. For instance:


> _Damn if I believe anybody knows anything about the damn thing except the ones that sit back in those New York offices and watch the country suckers come up and beg them to take their money._


Then, two pages later:


> _If there's one thing gets under my skin, it's a damn hypocrite. A man that thinks anything he dont understand all about must be crooked..._


Maybe it's just me, but that made me laugh.

I've also noticed that, despite Jason's very pointedly negative descriptions of the black people he encounters, Faulkner makes sure they get their word in. They're never disrespectful, but by contrasting their calm philosophical words with his own paranoid rantings, Jason's the one who comes out looking like a fool. I particularly enjoyed his conversation with Job about everyone going to the show. ("Fun" doesn't seem to be a word in Jason's vocabulary.)


> _"Listen," I says. "Do you know how much that show'll spend in this town? About ten dollars," I says. "The ten dollars Buck Turpin has in his pocket right now."
> 
> "Whut dey give Mr Buck ten dollars fer?" he says.
> 
> "For the privilege of showing here," I says. "You can put the balance of what they'll spend in your eye."
> 
> "You mean dey pays ten dollars jest to give dey show here?" he says.
> 
> "That's all," I says. "And how much do you reckon..."
> ...


Zing!  :FRlol:  Now, tell me if I'm wrong, but I think I know which of them Faulkner sides most with, and it makes me like Faulkner. As I see it, Jason leads a joyless life, not seeing merit in anything that doesn't make him money.

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## Riesa

I agree, Emily. I loved that line: " "I dont begrudge um. I kin sho afford my two bits."

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## Virgil

> Riesa, I agree that Jason's chapter has some very funny lines. Faulkner has a very dark, wry wit. Besides Jason's own funny statements, I feel at times that Faulkner uses Jason's own words to poke fun at him. For instance:Then, two pages later:Maybe it's just me, but that made me laugh.
> 
> I've also noticed that, despite Jason's very pointedly negative descriptions of the black people he encounters, Faulkner makes sure they get their word in. They're never disrespectful, but by contrasting their calm philosophical words with his own paranoid rantings, Jason's the one who comes out looking like a fool. I particularly enjoyed his conversation with Job about everyone going to the show. ("Fun" doesn't seem to be a word in Jason's vocabulary.)Zing!  Now, tell me if I'm wrong, but I think I know which of them Faulkner sides most with, and it makes me like Faulkner. As I see it, Jason leads a joyless life, not seeing merit in anything that doesn't make him money.


I wore a bright red tie, the kind that show guy wears with Quentin, to work on Monday in honor of Jason. This is a very funny chapter. And so is the ending where Quentin makes off with his (actually her's) money. The whole episode reminded me of a Chaucer tale, where a young couple connives an older, stupid fellow.

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## Ryduce

Am I the only one who was rooting for Jason??

He should've beat the crap out of Quentin when she was whoring around town,and Caddy dosen't deserve to see her daughter anyway,seeing as how it was her who gave Quentin up in the first place.

Jason is the only one in the family with any sense.

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## emily655321

:Eek:  *extended speechlessness*

I... uh... are you being serious here?

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## Ryduce

Damn straight.

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## Riesa

the only 'sane' one, eh? he's an odd sort of sane, when we compare him to the gentle ways of Dilsey. I guess compared to Mrs. Compson, he's more aware of what's going on around him, at least. I really couldn't say I rooted for him though. I think if I was to 'root' for anyone in the family, it'd be Caddie, or Miss Quentin.

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## Ryduce

Why would you root for Miss Quentin????

She needed to be slapped around,but Dilsey and Miss Compson kept interfering.I was hoping so bad that Jason would put Miss Quentin in her place,but Dilsey kept meddling,and that was the only reason I didn't like her.

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## Virgil

> Am I the only one who was rooting for Jason??
> 
> He should've beat the crap out of Quentin when she was whoring around town,and Caddy dosen't deserve to see her daughter anyway,seeing as how it was her who gave Quentin up in the first place.
> 
> Jason is the only one in the family with any sense.


Some critics have caled Jason a sadst. He may be, but I don't find anything in the novel that quite reaches to that level. He's not Hitler. But, he is a mean S-O-B who really draws no sympathy. For what does he deserve any? He steals form his sister, he goes back on his bargins, and he doesn't really care for Quentin at all, her well being. I'm not rooting for him in the least. 

I also think you're being unfair to Caddy. Sure she may have made some mistakes in her youth, but she cares for her daughter. She has love in her heart. Jason doesn't have any, at all.

Yes, Ry, you must be the only one rooting for Jason. But he is a great character.

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## Ryduce

Yeh maybe I have been kind of hard on Caddy because she did have a loving relationship with Benjy,but I felt that Jason had the potential to bring some sort of structure to the family.Perhaps it's just wishful thinking on my part,but I had faith that Jason's character would transcend to a compassionate individual in the end and bring some sort of equilibrium to the family.Oh well I guess.

He was mean,but you gotta love him.

----------


## Basil

_did you love them Caddy did you love them When they touched me I died_

Poor Caddy.

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## emily655321

> Why would you root for Miss Quentin????
> 
> She needed to be slapped around,but Dilsey and Miss Compson kept interfering.I was hoping so bad that Jason would put Miss Quentin in her place,but Dilsey kept meddling,and that was the only reason I didn't like her.


Because she was brought up without any parents, where the only person who gave her affection (Dilsey) was ridiculed for it, and with an uncle who not only stole from her the only things her mother ever gave her (the checks), but made a daily effort to make her realize how hated and worthless she was. She had no encouragement to behave well, and the only discipline she received was the constant threat of violence.

That's why I'm rooting for Quentin.

And, Ry, I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop advocating physical violence against the women in this story, because it's making me very uncomfortable and unhappy, and I'd really not like to think that sort of thing of you.

----------


## Riesa

Jason is so full of contradictions, so hypocritical. He has every opportunity to put her in her place, but never does. With his character, if he really wanted to, it seems to me that neither Dilsey nor Mrs. Compson could, or even would, stop him. He's stuck between thinking he's the only competent member of the family and the most victimized of them all. The notorious "job" he didn't get? (I'm a little unsure, but I think that was the job he was supposed to get with Caddie's husband?) So what, move on; he has every opportunity to do so at his job, but he doesn't take advantage of the opportunity when it presents itself. His boss even says "You'd be a good business man if you let yourself, Jason." But all Jason is capable of is to be insulting.

Why root for Miss Quentin? She got lost in the shuffle of everyone else's drama, she never had a chance. Her ending is of course ambivalent, but I couldn't help hoping she found some sort of happiness with her red-tie man, though that's wishful thinking and I'm pretty sure she was doomed not to.

----------


## Ryduce

> Because she was brought up without any parents, where the only person who gave her affection (Dilsey) was ridiculed for it, and with an uncle who not only stole from her the only things her mother ever gave her (the checks), but made a daily effort to make her realize how hated and worthless she was. She had no encouragement to behave well, and the only discipline she received was the constant threat of violence.
> 
> That's why I'm rooting for Quentin.
> 
> And, Ry, I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop advocating physical violence against the women in this story, because it's making me very uncomfortable and unhappy, and I'd really not like to think that sort of thing of you.




I do not condone or advocate violence of any kind,especially against women,and I am truly sorry if I have made you unhappy in any way.I just really don't like licentiously behaving people,that's all.Again please accept my apology because I don't like violence at all,and I think that you are a really intelligent and cool chick.I wasn't trying to make that impression on anyone.

I'm Sorry Em!!  :Bawling:   :Bawling:   :Bawling:

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## emily655321

Thanks, Ry. I didn't mean to make you feel bad, either.

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## Virgil

I agree with Ry. Emily is a cool chick!

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## Pensive

> I agree with Ry. Emily is a cool chick!


Chick reminds me of chicken and chicken makes me think about Bird Flu and then I feel horrible.  :Confused:

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## Ryduce

I just can't win.

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## Virgil

> Chick reminds me of chicken and chicken makes me think about Bird Flu and then I feel horrible.


Pensy - It's just an expression.

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## emily655321

Aw, I feel such love.  :Biggrin:   :Blush:  Thanks again, boys.

Poor Pensy"chick" just means "girl." And this girl doesn't have the flu.  :Biggrin:  American soldiers in France during WWI adopted the term "poule" ("chicken," but slang for "prostitute") and translated it for reimportation into the American dialect. (My teacher told me this when we were reading Hemingway. I liked that teacher.)

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## Virgil

I'd like to put out this lengthy post on how I think the novel holds together. I do it mid month only because tomorrow is Easter and _TSATF_ is so linked to the holiday.

Why is the novel centered on the Easter weekend? Why are there three chapters in first person interior monologue and the fourth in third person? 

I believe the novel all comes together with the Easter sermon of Reverend Shegog. Here are some excerpts. He starts:




> "Brethren and sisteren,"


And here you can say he not only is addressing the brothers and sisters in the congregation, but the Compson siblings.




> "Breddren en sistuhn!" His voice rang again, with the horns. He removed his arm and stood erect and raised his hands. "I got de ricklickshun en de blood of de Lamb!" They did not mark just when his intonation, his pronunciation, became negroid, they just sat swaying a little in their seats as the voice took them into itself. 
> "When de long, cold--Oh, I tells you, breddren, when de long, cold.... I sees de light en I sees de word, po sinner! Dey passed away in Egypt, de swingin chariots; de generations passed away. Wus a rich man: whar he now, O breddren? Wus a po man: whar he now, O sistuhn? Oh I tells you, ef you aint got de milk en de dew of de old salvation when de long, cold years rolls away!" 
> "Yes, Jesus!" 
> "I tells you, breddren, en I tells you, sistuhn, dey'll come a time. Po sinner sayin Let me lay down wid de Lawd, femme lay down my load. Den whut Jesus "wine say, O breddren? O sistuhn? Is you got de ricklickshun en de Blood of de Lamb? Case I aint gwine load down heaven!"


The preacher is describing a vision: I sees the light. And later:




> "Breddren! Look at dem little chiller settin dar. Jesus wus like dat once. He mammy suffered de glory en de pangs. Sometime maybe she heft him at de nightfall, whilst de angels singin him to sleep; maybe she look out de do en see de Roman po-lice passin." He tramped back and forth, mopping his face. "Listen, breddren! I sees de day. Ma'y settin in de do wid Jesus on her lap, de little Jesus. Like dem chiller dar, de little Jesus. I hears de angels singin de peaceful songs en de glory; I sees de closin eyes; sees Mary jump up, sees de sojer face: We gwine to kill! We gwine to kill! We gwine to kill yo little Jesus! I hears de weepin en de lamentation of de po mammy widout de salvation en de word of God!"


And the vision is tied together with human life, its pains, its passions, its sufferings. 




> "I sees, O Jesus! Oh I sees!" and still another, without words, like bubbles rising in water. 
> "I sees hit, breddren! I sees hit! Sees de blastin, blindin sight! I sees Calvary, wid de sacred trees, sees de thief en de murderer en de least of dese; I hears de boastin en de braggin: Ef you be Jesus, lif up yo tree en walk! I hears de wailin of women en de evenin lamentations; I hears de weepin en de cryin en de turns-away face of God: dey done kilt Jesus; dey done kilt my Son!"


And again his key word is sees, I sees. And so Faulkner gives us here the key to the novel. To see. So much of the narratives in the novel deal with seeing, whether its Luster trying to find his quarter or Quentins recalling visions of the past or Jason searching for the man in the red tie or Benjy, at the very beginning of the novel, looking through the slats of fence at the golfers. Faulkner even draws in the text an eye in the last chapter. These, however, are claustrophobic visions. The Reverends vision is a transcending vision, a vision that is outside the span of time and place. The fourth chapter is in third person, opening up to a panorama of vision. It is as if now we are seeing the story through the eyes of God.

The first three chapters are interior monologues to emphasize the limited vision of humanity. The very first image of Benjy looking through the fence is the metaphor that shapes the novel. We are looking at the world through slits of a fence, through the eyes of a thirty-three year old, through the mind of a retarded man, through the heart of a child. The first three chapters emphasize that the world, if allowed, can be limited to the self.

And what is Easter but a ritual outside linear time. The blood of the lamb is a ritual that binds society. It is in contrast to the self. It is a communal endeavor, a shared vision, a touchstone from which the self has undergone a passage. 

I see the three Compson boys (and once I would have included Caddy too, but now I have my doubts) as boys who have failed to undergo a rite of passage into adulthood. Benjy, through no fault of his own, is forever a child and is even castrated; Quentin cannot come to terms with sexuality; and Jason cannot form human relations of the heart. The sexual dysfunction of each is a means for Faulkner to show that to be locked up into ones self, to not form bonds with the community, is to be severed from humanity. The other key word from the sermon is recollection. Recollection, synonym for memory, and that echoes so much of the novel, also is a form of "re-collect". To recollect is to bring back to whole from multiple parts. It is to bind back, and that is what Easter (and Faulkner could have easily picked Passover or Ramadan or other ritualized holidays of any religion) does. It binds us back from our severed (crucified?) selves. 

And so we have the tragedy of the Compson family, a family of severed individuals. Faulkner tells the novel in vignettes, which are severed narrative. Benjy, although Christ-like, is not a Christ figure; he will always be a castrated child-man. Quentin, paralyzed by memory and history, drowns forever a virgin, and Jason, a conglomerate of selfish obsessions, is forever severed from humanity through his hatreds. In fact he doesnt even know its Easter Sunday.

In contrast is Dilsey, the embodiment of unselfishness. When she leaves the church after the sermon, tears come to her eyes:




> Yes, suh. He seed hit. Face to face he seed hit." 
> Dilsey made no sound, her face did not quiver as the tears took their sunken and devious courses, walking with her head up, making no effort to dry them away even. 
> "Whyn't you quit dat, mammy?" Frony said. "Wid all dese people lookin. We be passin white folks soon." 
> "I've seed de first en de last," Dilsey said. "Never you mind me."


She too sees the vision. She has seen the first and the last, echoing Genesis, the alpha and the omega. She is not a severed individual but one bound to the community and to family. She obtains that vision of the blood of the lamb, and so transcends mortality and its limitations and weaknesses.

This has been my sermon. I hope you enjoyed it. Have a Happy Easter Sunday.

----------


## Scheherazade

I have been busy reading _As I Lay Dying_ and _The Age of Innocence_ recently hence still haven't finished _TSATF_ (just finished reading Benjy's part for the second time). I am somewhat relieved that this part was not as confusing as I thought it would be - although I am sure there are things I have missed and will be clearer to me only after reading the later parts.

I have only quickly scanned the posts so far not to spoil it for myself but could not see any discussions on the title, which I has intruiged me from the start. After conferring with good old google, I have found this: 


> The title and some of the imagery in the novel derive from a soliloquy by the title character in Shakespeares tragedy _Macbeth_. In Act V, Scene v, following the death of his wife, and as he begins to realize his dire situation, Macbeth speaks his Tomorrow soliloquy: 
> 
> To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow
> Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
> To the last syllable of recorded time,
> And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
> The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
> Lifes but a walking shadow, a poor player
> That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
> ...


'A tale told by an idiot' (Benjy - at least initially) it surely is! Also, I am wondering at the 'sound and fury signifying nothing' reference. Is it because of the family and their reluctance to accept the present facts, still clinging to their past ideals even though in present they are irrelevant?

Also, this quote made me think a lot as well. After she gets wet in the river, Caddy climbs up the tree to see what is going on in the house:


> [Versh] went and pushed Caddy up into the tree to the first limb. We watched the muddy bottom of her drawers.


Even though they are all children when this happens, I find it rather creepy for some reason and wonder if it is some kind of foreshadowing: The boys' 'unnatural' obssession with their sister and, maybe, her future promiscuity (=dirty bottom)? (Am I reading too much into one single sentence?)

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## Virgil

> I have only quickly scanned the posts so far not to spoil it for myself but could not see any discussions on the title, which I has intruiged me from the start. After conferring with good old google, I have found this: 'A tale told by an idiot' (Benjy - at least initially) it surely is! Also, I am wondering at the 'sound and fury signifying nothing' reference. Is it because of the family and their reluctance to accept the present facts, still clinging to their past ideals even though in present they are irrelevant?


We have not discussed the title. I don't think it's as simple as saying Benjy is the idiot that provides sound and fury. There are all sorts of sound and fury throughout the novel. here's one off the top of my head: During the Easter sermon, the congregation mutters, "Mmmmm." Certainly sound.




> Also, this quote made me think a lot as well. After she gets wet in the river, Caddy climbs up the tree to see what is going on in the house:Even though they are all children when this happens, I find it rather creepy for some reason and wonder if it is some kind of foreshadowing: The boys' 'unnatural' obssession with their sister and, maybe, her future promiscuity (=dirty bottom)? (Am I reading too much into one single sentence?)


You are not reading too much into that. The muddy drawers are a key detail. Also you just made me realize something I said in my previous post. The importance to the novel of "seeing." Caddy climbs the tree and sees.

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## papayahed

I finsihed the book over Easter and it seems to me the theme of the novels is the powerlessness. I've read a few places that the book had a lot to do with the south after the civil war, there was a powerlessness there also. 

Benji was basically powerless over himself.

Quentin was powerless against Caddie she did what she wanted, he couldn't get his father to see the importance of Caddies pregenancy, he tried and fail to threaten Dalton Ames, he didn't do well at school, he didn't even stick up for himself at the police station.

Dilsey - powerless to raise those kids correctly, she did what she could but ultimately Mr and Mrs Compson had the finaly say.

Mr Compson - powerless over alcohol

Mrs Compson - pfftt. she was to busy being ill to deal with anything accept screw Jason up, she pretty much laid the responsibilty for the family at his feet.

Jason - I don't know about that one, but he was always threatening something but he never really did anything. Well besides steal maybe he was powerless over his own greed and hatred.

Quentin was not powerless, she did what she had to do and got out. Perhaps she's the hope for the new south - I read that somewhere.

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## Virgil

That's a good observation, Papaya. The novel seems to have more dimensions that I can count.

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## Scheherazade

> We have not discussed the title. I don't think it's as simple as saying Benjy is the idiot that provides sound and fury.


I did not say that. It seems like Faulkner got the title from Macbeth's 'It is a tale/ Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury/Signifying nothing.' I just thought that the story is also, at least initially, told by an 'idiot' but the rest of the 'sound and fury signifying nothing' reference is still open to interpretation, which I questioned in my previous post. 


> There are all sorts of sound and fury throughout the novel. here's one off the top of my head: During the Easter sermon, the congregation mutters, "Mmmmm." Certainly sound.


I am not sure if Faulkner is referring to simple, literal sounds such as 'mmm' in the title or at least it is not all of it. I haven't finished reading the book yet but to me it is more like the family's arguments and fights with each other as well as their rage against their disappearance as a 'class' in the South; against the changing order of the society. And, maybe, all this matters little to anyone else, hence, 'signifies nothing'.

I am half way through Quentin's chapter and the change is amazing. Even though Benjy was presented to a retarded person, his chapter was much clearer than Quentin's, which makes me wonder if Benjy was autistic rather than mentally retarded. Also, it seemed like Benjy didn't have a sense of time, mixing past and present whereas Quentin seems obssessed with it, listening his watch and clocks, guessing what time it would be, counting the chimes. Not sure what this means (probably signifies nothing! :Biggrin: ) but just an observation.

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## Virgil

> Also, it seemed like Benjy didn't have a sense of time, mixing past and present whereas Quentin seems obssessed with it, listening his watch and clocks, guessing what time it would be, counting the chimes. Not sure what this means (probably signifies nothing!) but just an observation.


No I think it's more than an observation. Benjy lives in a timeless manner in many respects. Quentin is just the opposite. The shadow (shadows keep coming up in the Quentin section) of history (Southern history, family history) keeps overwhelming Quentin. And so Quentin wants to stop time; freeze it. Suicide is a way of freezing time.

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## bluevictim

Every time I finish reading this novel, I feel like I need to read it again. Here are some of my thoughts.

Despite being narrated completely by men, I think an important issue in this novel is the situation of women.

To me, the plot (not necessarily the whole novel) hinges on Caddy getting pregnant by (possibly) Dalton Ames. It leads to her marriage to and abandonment by Herbert, which causes Jason's disappointment and resentment; it seems to be the source of the confusion and despair which brings Quentin to suicide; and, of course, it produces Miss Quentin.

Her predicament highlights the double standard in many societies regarding chastity. Unlike the men who can easily escape the consequences of promiscuity, Caddy, like Hester Prynne, cannot avoid the judgement of the world because her "defilement", like the mud on her drawers, is outwardly visible (would the mud on her drawers be visible if she were wearing pants instead of a dress?). Quentin exhibits this double standard quite explicitly. He wished that Caddy was a virgin but at the same time he wished that he wasn't a virgin, perhaps losing his virginity to someone else's sister.

I think someone mentioned Greek tragedy. It's funny how the women in Jason's household stay in their chambers, like in ancient Greek society. Miss Quentin running off with Jason's (and her) money makes me think of Medea's revenge on her Jason by killing his (and her) children. The unfair treatment of women feature prominently in Medea's story, as well.

On another note, the family seems to be a bit of a house divided against itself -- the Compsons (Mr. Jason, Quentin, Caddy, Benjy(?), Miss Quentin (?)) versus the Bascombs (Caroline, Jason). This is emphasized most explicitly by Caroline, but Jason doesn't seem to have much affection for the "Compsons", either. It seems that the "Bascombs" are a lot more concerned with outward appearances and propriety than the "Compsons". Perhaps it reflects the old South versus the new (post Civil War) South.

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## Scheherazade

I have finished Q's section: I _loved_ especially the last few pages, where he remembers his talks with Caddy... Such passion and anger even though it adds up to nothing. Very touching.

Any thoughts on this passage?


> Sir I will not need Shreve's I have sold Benjy's pasture and I can be dead in Harvard Caddy said in the caverns and the grottoes of the sea tumbling peacefully to the waering tides because Harvard is such a fine sound forty acres is no-high price for a fine sound. A fine dead sound we will swap Benjy's pasture for a fine dead sound. It will last him a long time because he cannot hear it unless he can smell it _as soon as she came in the door he began to cry_





> Benji was basically powerless over himself.
> 
> Quentin was powerless against Caddie she did what she wanted, he couldn't get his father to see the importance of Caddies pregenancy, he tried and fail to threaten Dalton Ames, he didn't do well at school, he didn't even stick up for himself at the police station.
> 
> Dilsey - powerless to raise those kids correctly, she did what she could but ultimately Mr and Mrs Compson had the finaly say.
> 
> Mr Compson - powerless over alcohol
> 
> Mrs Compson - pfftt. she was to busy being ill to deal with anything accept screw Jason up, she pretty much laid the responsibilty for the family at his feet.
> ...


Papaya, I really like this approach (am thinking one even can write a paper based on it!  :Biggrin: ) but there are couple of points that I disagree with. In my opinion, Quentin was powerless in the face of social pressure and also his affection for Caddy.

Also, I do not consider Dilsey powerless at all. It seems like she is the only who manages to keep it together throughout the book and still standing when the book ends. It is kind of ironic that it is a black person who manages this, despite everything they have to endure from the family. It is not Dilsey's responsibility to raise the children; it it the parents who fail them. 

Couple of questions floating in my mind as I finished reading:

-Why did Faulkner choose Easter for recording the events? This I find interesting because the family does not seem particularly religious. Even when Caddy gets pregnant, there is no mention of 'sin' but 'shame' it will bring on the family. The only time Mrs C refers to the Bible is when she asks Dilsey to find her copy, which seems carelessly cast aside and there is no proof that she actually reads it.

- What is the significance of the sermon Dilsey attends? If it is a religious reference ('lamb'?), it is lost on me.

- When Dilsey keeps repeating 'I seed de beginnin, en now I sees de endin.', does she refer to the end of the family? I.e., the Compson family have lost all their chance and will no longer be the influential family they had been?

- Do u fink I shud read da Sprknts or sumfing instead of bodering y'all?  :Biggrin:

----------


## papayahed

> Papaya, I really like this approach (am thinking one even can write a paper based on it! ) but there are couple of points that I disagree with. In my opinion, Quentin was powerless in the face of social pressure and also his affection for Caddy.
> 
> Also, I do not consider Dilsey powerless at all. It seems like she is the only who manages to keep it together throughout the book and still standing when the book ends. It is kind of ironic that it is a black person who manages this, despite everything they have to endure from the family. It is not Dilsey's responsibility to raise the children; it it the parents who fail them.


Get that thought out of your mind Scher!! I am not writing a paper!!!  :FRlol:  

oh, no doubt the parents definately failed the kids, I was just thinking that Dilsey was powerless to make the kids better. I don't know if that makes sense, she did the best she could by them but ultimately the parents came in a messed them up specifically when she tried to get Jason to leave Miss Quentin alone, he wouldn't and that daft Ms Compson said "Well it's his house now, he's the head let him do what he thinks is best" (to paraphrase of course)

And ya know what else bugs me: The Jason refering to Benjy as "The great American Gelding". I just wanna punch him in the nose!

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## Virgil

> -Why did Faulkner choose Easter for recording the events? This I find interesting because the family does not seem particularly religious. Even when Caddy gets pregnant, there is no mention of 'sin' but 'shame' it will bring on the family. The only time Mrs C refers to the Bible is when she asks Dilsey to find her copy, which seems carelessly cast aside and there is no proof that she actually reads it.
> 
> - What is the significance of the sermon Dilsey attends? If it is a religious reference ('lamb'?), it is lost on me.
> 
> - When Dilsey keeps repeating 'I seed de beginnin, en now I sees de endin.', does she refer to the end of the family? I.e., the Compson family have lost all their chance and will no longer be the influential family they had been?
> 
> - Do u fink I shud read da Sprknts or sumfing instead of bodering y'all?


Scher, I answered this in one of the earlier posts. If you disagree, let me know and we can discuss it. Check post #119 on this thread.

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## Scheherazade

I have finally read the thread from the start. There are many points highlighted/discussed but I would like to add my comments as well (at the risk of being repetitive and boring you guys!)

- I think Caddy becomes an important figure in her brothers' lives because their mother fails to act like a 'proper' mother figure, leaving a big gap and they all turn to her, instead of their mother, for feminine affection and assurance. I cannot help wondering if Quentin's obsession carries a tinge of Oedipus complex as well. He repeats couple of times in his chapter: 'If Id just had a mother so I could say Mother Mother'.

- Caddy, I believe, does not get a chapter in the book because she is an 'image' for her brothers, idealised through lack of a mother figure. If there were a chapter from her point of view, she would become a 'real' person and we would find out about her and her thoughts, developing our like/dislike. However, without a chapter, we see her through her brothers' eyes and that is all we need to know about her, for the story's sake. Faulkner does not even give a clear indication of what happens to her after she leaves.

- Looking at chapters... I wonder if Faulkner is letting us see their world through different 'mediums'. Benjy perceives the world through his senses. He smells, hears (rain), sees and touches (burning himself in the fire). It is very interesting that his chapter is full of expressions suggesting that things seemly stopped existing when they are out of his sight and then come back again. Quentin perceives the world through his emotions. He is a very sensitive, emotional person and his actions are based on his feelings. Jason, on the other hand, is constantly calculating. We hardly ever witness him saying/thinking anything emotional or sensitive. He is all cool materialism and calculations. The omniscient chapter at the end comes too late; we still don't get an objective insight into the past as it mainly concentrates on present.

-The little Italian girl and her brother... Quentin befriends not only the little girl but also other little boys. I think it shows that he is more at ease with children. It is interesting that the little girl's brother is doing what Quentin himself would like to do with Caddy's boyfriends; confront and scare them off to protect his little sister. However, unlike the little girl's brother, he is not successful at confrontations.

- The significance of Easter... Virgil, I agree with your observation that Reverend Shegog's sermon addresses to the Compson family but I am not persuaded that any other religious festival would have done the trick. I can't help thinking that there must be a grand purpose behind Faulkner's choice even though I cannot put my finger on it - my limited knowledge of Christianity fails me, I am afraid.

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## papayahed

> I- The significance of Easter... Virgil, I agree with your observation that Reverend Shegog's sermon addresses to the Compson family but I am not persuaded that any other religious festival would have done the trick. I can't help thinking that there must be a grand purpose behind Faulkner's choice even though I cannot put my finger on it - my limited knowledge of Christianity fails me, I am afraid.



I don't think any other religious festival would have fit either. Easter is about death and rebirth - perfect for this story.

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## Scheherazade

> I don't think any other religious festival would have fit either. Easter is about death and rebirth - perfect for this story.


I can see how the death aspect fits in but what do you think about the rebirth? Rebirth of whom/what? A new class and social order maybe?

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## papayahed

> I can see how the death aspect fits in but what do you think about the rebirth? Rebirth of whom/what? A new class and social order maybe?


I guessing a rebirth of the family (well the death of the old ways). Quentin is off to a new life. Jason has one less person to take care of, how soon before Benny is sent to Jacksonville (Jacksonville right?) and he probably won't be getting any more money from Caddie....

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## Ryduce

Could the death of the grandmother in the beginning be symbolic of the death of the traditional Southern society?

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## Scheherazade

> I guessing a rebirth of the family (well the death of the old ways). Quentin is off to a new life. Jason has one less person to take care of, how soon before Benny is sent to Jacksonville (Jacksonville right?) and he probably won't be getting any more money from Caddie....


I am not sure the family will be 'reborn'. What is left of them? Jason, who is emotionally impossible to function and Benjy, who cannot function at all. I am not sure if we can still count Caddy and Miss Q in... Or even if we could, they have left the family so, in a way, don't want anything to do with it? It is ironic, I guess, that the rejects of the family are the only ones left to carry on (because they proved to be stronger/survivors?) I am not sure what kind of message Faulkner is giving here. I think I should really read this book again... and maybe again!  :Biggrin: 


> Could the death of the grandmother in the beginning be symbolic of the death of the traditional Southern society?


 To me it seems like the Easter is symbolising more than the demise of the Compsons... A whole class and way of life are dying and I really like Ry's suggestion that Damuddy's death is the beginning of the fall. We never actually see her; she was ill (symbolic?) and then dies and, I believe, with her certain things disappear as well. Mrs C and Mr C are the ones left to tend to family. It was Jason, who had a particular fondness for her, wasn't it? She could deal with him but when she was gone, there was no one to check him?

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## Virgil

> I can see how the death aspect fits in but what do you think about the rebirth? Rebirth of whom/what? A new class and social order maybe?


The aspect of Easter that fits in this novel is not rebirth, but sacrement and that sacrement becomes symbolic for a rite of passage. That's why I said other reiglious events from other religons could have worked if Faulkner and the characters belonged to those religions. If Faulkner had been Muslim and oriented the novel around Muslim culture, I could see Ramadan (a religious rite where sacrifice is required) worked into the novel.

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## Scheherazade

> The aspect of Easter that fits in this novel is not rebirth, but sacrement and that sacrement becomes symbolic for a rite of passage. That's why I said other reiglious events from other religons could have worked if Faulkner and the characters belonged to those religions. If Faulkner had been Muslim and oriented the novel around Muslim culture, I could see Ramadan (a religious rite where sacrifice is required) worked into the novel.


Could you please explain why and how it becomes a rite of passage in the story, Virgil?

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## papayahed

> The aspect of Easter that fits in this novel is not rebirth, but sacrement and that sacrement becomes symbolic for a rite of passage. That's why I said other reiglious events from other religons could have worked if Faulkner and the characters belonged to those religions. If Faulkner had been Muslim and oriented the novel around Muslim culture, I could see Ramadan (a religious rite where sacrifice is required) worked into the novel.


I don't see how sacrement fits the novel. Do you mean like one of the "sacrements", Easter isn't a sacrement .

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## Virgil

> I don't see how sacrement fits the novel. Do you mean like one of the "sacrements", Easter isn't a sacrement .


Easter is not a sacrement, but communion is and that is derived from Easter events. A sacrement is a symbolic rite.

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## papayahed

> Easter is not a sacrement, but communion is and that is derived from Easter events. A sacrement is a symbolic rite.


The Sacrement of Communion doesn't really fit with the novel. Communion is about the sacrifice Jesus made for us, we are recieving his body and blood at communion as a symbol of that sacrifice.

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## Virgil

> The Sacrement of Communion doesn't really fit with the novel. Communion is about the sacrifice Jesus made for us, we are recieving his body and blood at communion as a symbol of that sacrifice.


Communion:
Commune, the bringing together of people into a community.
Communion: The ritual of shared humanity through the symbolic eating of the body and blood of Christ. 

As opposed to the individual internalizations of Benjy, Quentin, and Jason.

Just dawned on me: Contrast the eating scenes (and there are several in the novel) with the last supper. Choas and fighting (TSATF) versus communal brotherhood (Matthew 26).

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## papayahed

I dunno, it seems to me that rebirth is more of a fit for this novel. At least for Quentin, throwing off the old ways and going out into the world.

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## Virgil

> I dunno, it seems to me that rebirth is more of a fit for this novel. At least for Quentin, throwing off the old ways and going out into the world.


I think that's part of it too.

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## ColdSore

Just finished this on my own. Loved loved LOVED it. Hate to drudge up an old thread, but didn't know where else to talk about it. 

I laughed out loud at how cruel and hilarious Jason's dialog could be at times. 

Anyone else reading/read this?

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## Virgil

> Just finished this on my own. Loved loved LOVED it. Hate to drudge up an old thread, but didn't know where else to talk about it. 
> 
> I laughed out loud at how cruel and hilarious Jason's dialog could be at times. 
> 
> Anyone else reading/read this?


Welcome to lit net coldsore. Obviously since I have so many comments in this thread I read and thoroughly enjoyed the novel.

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## PabloQ

Apparently I'm clueless when it comes to TSATF. I recently finished it and I've read this entire thread from 3 years ago. I missed a key element in that Quentin was a virgin. I didn't think so. When I read the novel, I took his confession of incest to be honest, his father's bs answer about virginity as a sort of denial, Caddy's quick marriage as protection of the baby's true father, her brother Quentin. I interpreted Caddy's promiscuity as her striking out against her family's unsoundness, instablility, weakness. Her unwanted baby was her ticket out. Naming the baby, Quentin, to me, flaunts the truth of the baby's heritage in the face of the whole family.

Her brother Quentin couldn't accept it, couldn't cope with the distance created by Caddy moving away. In his twisted way, the way to make Caddy and honest woman is for her to stay. Quentin's suicide is steeped in guilt and shame. Much of the shame is based in the sordid relationship with his sister, and that shame is compounded by the family's sacrifice of Benjy's 40 acres to pay for his first year of Harvard. Someone along the way in this thread questioned where the other 3 years were to come from. Makes me wonder how long he was intended to be away. One for Quentin in Massachusetts. The sentence ended up being harsher than just separation, Yankee snobbery made him unwelcome and difficult for him succeed. I got the impression he was failing out of Harvard, not through lack of effort, but from his inability to grasp what he was taught. He was honestly washing out. Subconsciously? Maybe. But he was failing.

I thought it was interesting that Quentin stopped time by removing the hands from his watch, and yet he couldn't stop the ticking without smashing the rest of the watch. It's further interesting that he wanders about for a day before doing himself in because it is clear he has made up his mind early in the day. He buys a loaf of bread for a hungry little girl. Does the girl represent the innocence of childhood, his sister's lost innocence, his own virginity restored through his father's lie and denial? Beats me. The effort Q puts into finding the girl's home seems out of character. Maybe he relates to being culturally uncomfortable. Harvard is a foreign country to him. He is treated like a foreigner, an outsider. Which in his guilt seems to be appropriate to his sin, the source of his shame. He is the fallen. By drowning himself in the river, he is cleansing himself with the water, cleansing his family of his shame through his death. To him, it must have seemed an appropriate sacrifice.

The Compson family is a mess. I believe Quentin to be the daughter of Caddy and Quentin. I believe Benjy to be the daughter of Mrs. Compson and her brother, Maury. That's why Mrs. Compson refers to Benjy as a punishment, her burden (cross?) to bear. I don't think Benjy was castrated because people misinterpreted his intent. I don't think this family has any sense of sexually moral behavior. They're twisted and this is their twisted tale. Benjy attacked. He was castrated and (did everyone miss this) they cut out his tongue. The best thing they could do for him is to send him to Jackson, but he stays, not as a burden to the family, but to the family retainers. Sending him off to Jackson seems the best thing for Benjy's well-being, but the Mrs. Compson can't do that. Probably the only thing Jason gets right.

Jason Compson is a scumbag. He sits on a moral high horse that his niece is the same type of whore as his sister. Mrs. Compson burns the faux checks seemingly because she believes the money is sourced in prostitution. She burns them as way to deny such tainted money. As suggested earlier, she hides behind her "ailments" to avoid direct confrontation of many of the truths before her. The last of which for her to deny is that the son on which she has invested her most confidence is greedy thief of a scumbag. He drives deliberate wedges between mother and daughter -- Mrs. C to Caddy, Caddy to Quentin. He personnally gains for it by hiding the money, including a thousand dollars he stole from his mother. I don't know about anybody else, but I got a whiff of Judas Iscariot in this guy. Well intended but greedy. Thought he was doing write, but arrogance was his downfall. It just seems kind of odd that he loses his stash on Good Friday. Come Monday, he's got no job. 

My thoughts on the title. Sound does not just mean audio. It can mean strong, true, solid. The Fury signifies anger, rage, tempestuousness, madness. To me, the title translates to The Strong and Twisted. The Twisted are comprised of every one of those damned Compson's. They are the fallen, the shadow of an aristocratic class in shambles. Morally bereft, financially ruined, spiritually bankrupt. Ol' Mr. Compson was a clergyman before he drank himself to death. So where is the strength?

Dilsey does everything she can to fill every gap in this hole-riddled, unholy family structure. She is the discipline. She is the love. She is the truth. She is the Christ. She has seen the beginning and the end. She has seen the light. It is her. When she has her moment of clarity, she is old. I don't know if you've had a grandparent or parent that at some points just gets beaten down after a life full of dedication and service, but that is what Dilsey seems to me. She can barely pull herself up the stairs to wait on Mrs. Compson, but she does so out of dedication and loyalty. Without her, the family would have disintegrated years before. And truth be told, she could have left at any time. She is the Sound. The Compsons are the Fury.

This is one of those novels begging me to read it again. I'm going to let it sit and read some other Faulkner. When I do read it again, maybe it will say something else to me.

Two cents please. :Smile:

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## Virgil

Read it again Pablo. You can't absorb it on read. Read it now that you've read the comments. Getting the specific details are less important than grasping the movement of the novel: from the limited perception of Benjy, to the constrained perception of Quentin, stunted perception of Jason, to the ominiscent perception of the ending, and it's link to Dilsey.

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## PabloQ

I'm a big enough man to admit I'm wrong. I'll admit that I didn't get the fact that Quentin didn't actually carry out his desire for his sister. His obsession with her was such that it certainly seemed as though he had.

The reason I know I have it wrong is I had the chance to glance through The Portable Faulkner. I always thought these volumes were compilations pulled together by publisher's to package diverse samples of an author's work in order to provide an encapsulated view. Apparently this volume is a greatest hits album and Faulkner helped pick the songs. He included a history of the Compsons and he says Quentin never acted on his desires. He further confirmed that Caddy was a ho' and Dilsey is the sound foundation around which the house of Compson crumbles. My bad.

Thanks for the invitation to read it again. I'm going to confound myself with some other of Faulkner's works and I may come back to it. For now, I'm going to move on.

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## mayneverhave

> I'm a big enough man to admit I'm wrong. I'll admit that I didn't get the fact that Quentin didn't actually carry out his desire for his sister. His obsession with her was such that it certainly seemed as though he had.


It's understandable to misread a dense book like this, even with plot points. The first time I read the novel I used outside sources to aid my reading so in some sense I cheated.

It's important to note what Quentin says about his confession of incest to his father. Something along the lines of (and I'm pulling this from memory): "if I said I commited incest then it would be like I did", and from that "we would burn in hell, just us two". Those are far from exact quotes, but I don't feel like getting my copy off the shelf.

The point is is that Quentin's ideal world involves him as the protector of Caddy - the chivalric older brother that he wishes he could be. In reality, his sister ends up being stronger than him, more sexually experienced, and when he attempts to stand up to Dalton Ames, Dalton in many ways acts in the chivalric way Quentin wishes he could.

By telling his father they had incenst, Quentin thinks that this is a heinous sin in which they would be reserved a special spot in hell, just the two of them. Jason Compson (his father), and his nihilistic, all values and meanings are constructions attitude, are what I think is truly responsible for Quentin's suicide, as the last thing the neurotic kid needs is a father that tells him humans a "stuffed dolls, accumlations of dust."



On another note - I'm kinda bummed I missed this thread originally, as I was not even yet on this forum. Perhaps we can resurrect it.

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## dfloyd

Much better than As I Lay Dying, but not as good as Absolam! Absolam!

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