# Reading > General Literature >  Fiction about the holocaust

## McGrain

I was reading today about the supposed silence in art concerning the Holocaust in its immediate aftermath. I realised I hadn't ever read any fiction of any description. I've read a fair bit of history, but nothing fiction.

In a way it seems a bit frivolous, but nothing could be further from the truth, i realised.

Any recommendations?

----------


## hillwalker

'Sophie's Choice' (William Styron) - 'Schindler's Ark' (Thomas Keneally) - both works of fiction set in concentration camps.

H

----------


## OrphanPip

If This Is a Man by Primo Levi is one of the earliest I believe, about Levi's own experiences in Auschwitz.

Art Spiegelman's graphic novel Maus, which largely addresses the theme of what it means to depict something like the holocaust in art and then to profit from that depiction.

----------


## Charles Darnay

> If This Is a Man by Primo Levi is one of the earliest I believe, about Levi's own experiences in Auschwitz.
> 
> Art Spiegelman's graphic novel Maus, which largely addresses the theme of what it means to depict something like the holocaust in art and then to profit from that depiction.


Beat me to "Maus": it is wonderful.

I would also add to the list "Boy in the Striped Pajamas"

----------


## Mutatis-Mutandis

_Boy In the Striped Pajamas_ was one of the most haunting movies I ever saw--I imagine the book is even worse.

There's a very popular young-adult novel called _Night_ that deals with the holocaust. I've never read it, but I've heard nothing but praise.

----------


## Calidore

Gerald Green novelized the television miniseries _The Holocaust_. It's fiction and very good. (The TV series is excellent also.)

Jane Yolen wrote an updated version of the old fairy tale _Briar Rose_ set in Poland during the Holocaust.

----------


## JuniperWoolf

> There's a very popular young-adult novel called _Night_ that deals with the holocaust. I've never read it, but I've heard nothing but praise.


It was great. The author gave me one of my favorite quotes ever: "the opposite of love is not hate - it is indifference."

Not a fictional story, though.

----------


## Charles Darnay

> _Boy In the Striped Pajamas_ was one of the most haunting movies I ever saw--I imagine the book is even worse.
> 
> There's a very popular young-adult novel called _Night_ that deals with the holocaust. I've never read it, but I've heard nothing but praise.


And I wouldn't call "Night" a young-adult novel, although it is being introduced in high schools. I think that, along with "Man's Search For Meaning" are two essential reads when it comes to Holocaust memoirs.

----------


## stlukesguild

Art Spiegelman's graphic novel Maus, which largely addresses the theme of what it means to depict something like the holocaust in art and then to profit from that depiction.

An interesting theme you draw attention to here, Pip. Recently I've been reading a book entitled The German Genius which explores the impact of various Germanic "geniuses" upon the world as we know it. The opening chapter, "Blinded by the Light: Hitler, the Holocaust, and the Past that will not Pass Away" explores the continued impact of the WWII and Holocaust upon Germany, England, the US, and Israel. It is noted that 97% of Germans have a rough understanding of basic English with 25% fluent compared to 22% of English with a rough grasp of basic German and less than 1% fluent. The author explores the fact that most of what is taught about Germany in British public schools centers upon Hitler leading to a grossly unbalanced view of German culture. Watson suggests that as "every country need to go through an identity-building process" it was WWII that has taken this role for the English. "In 1940, Britain was confronted with an overpowering enemy and through the sheer mustering of British virtues, Britain finally managed to turn it around... Like the conquering of the West is part of the American myth, so it is the same with Britain and the defeat of Nazism... "The defeat of Germany still seems to be essential to the English sense of who they are... That obsession shows no sign of diminishing. In July 2005, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger of Bavaria became Pope. The following day, the London _Sun_, a tabloid newspaper, splashed its front page with the headline, "From Hitler Youth to Papa Ratzi."

The author goes on to explore the impact of WWII and the Holocaust upon America. In spite of the fact that WWII resulted in the US as the last man standing... the sole military and economic superpower in the world... there was no great impact upon the American psyche as the war ended and the majority of Americans turned their focus to setting about making money and building the ideal world of tomorrow.

For nearly two decades following the war, the Holocaust was something rarely spoken of. Jewish cultural groups repeatedly rejected any idea of establishing a Holocaust Memorial, not wishing to be remembered as "victims". This began to change in the late 1980s and 1990's with the advent of political correctness and the notion that "victim status" lent one the moral high ground. By 1995 97% of American knew what the Holocaust was... quite a bit more than could identify Pearl Harbor and nearly twice as many as those who knew that the United States has dropped two atom bombs on Japan. 

The result, as several Jewish writers have noted, has been that the Holocaust has been sanctified... or made sacrosanct. This has carried over any art work made about the Holocaust and ultimately to the state of Israel. While Israel carries out actions against the Palestinians that mirror those carried out a half a century earlier by the Nazis against the Jews, to question Israeli politics is almost immediately tied to antisemitism. Many of the US' problems over the last half-century with the Middle-East relate to this notion of Israel and the Jews as being sacrosanct or above criticism. Just as many are fearful of criticizing Israel, so many critics are afraid of criticizing any work of art or literature or music inspired by or dealing with the Holocaust. Yet are we to assume that a profound theme will inherently always result in an art of equal profundity? 

One author, Norman G. Finkelstein, in his book, The Holocaust Industry, acerbically suggested that there are more than a few among the American Jewish population who are guilty of exploiting the Holocaust... "Holocaust Hucksters", he calls them... who repeatedly use the Holocaust for personal gain... or for the benefit of Israel.

I share a studio with an older Jewish artist who, in my less diplomatic moments, I might accuse of Holocaust Hucksterism. After years of painting abstractly and a decade-long side trip working as a baseball artist, he suddenly began to explore the theme of the Holocaust. On more than one occasion he has let slip the fact that as he has never been afforded the one-man museum exhibition he so believes he is worthy of, he has taken on the theme of the Holocaust as a means of shaming dealers and galleries into showing his work. Any criticism of his work is dismissed as criticism of those who died and suffered during the Holocaust... and thus is clearly antisemitic. He went so far, at one point, as to send envelopes filled with ashes to various galleries which had turned down his work with a note stating simply, "May the ashes of the dead be upon you."

Personally, I think the Holocaust and WWII and Hitler are all historical events that are no more nor less valid as themes for the artist/author. Like any other historical narrative, be it the old America West, the American Civil War, the Revolutionary War, the French Revolution, the Cultural Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the 30-Years War, the Napoleonic wars, etc... I feel WWII, the Holocaust, and Hitler should be open to various artistic explorations, whether reverent, revisionist, or even comic. 

I believe that it was Theodor Adorno who suggested that one could not write poetry after Auschwitz. The great Romanian poet, Paul Celan, responded by composing one of the most powerful post-war poems... ABOUT Auschwitz:

_Black milk of daybreak we drink it at sundown
we drink it at noon in the morning we drink it at night
we drink and we drink it
we dig a grave in the breezes there one lies unconfined
A man lives in the house he plays with the serpents he writes
he writes when dusk falls to Germany your golden hair Margarete
he writes it and steps out of doors and the stars are flashing he whistles his pack out
he whistles his Jews out in earth has them dig for a grave
he commands us strike up for the dance

Black milk of daybreak we drink you at night
we drink in the morning at noon we drink you at sundown
we drink and we drink you
A man lives in the house he plays with the serpents he writes
he writes when dusk falls to Germany your golden hair Margarete
your ashen hair Shulamith we dig a grave in the breezes there one lies unconfined.

He calls out jab deeper into the earth you lot you others sing now and play
he grabs at the iron in his belt he waves it his eyes are blue
jab deeper you lot with your spades you others play on for the dance

Black milk of daybreak we drink you at night
we drink you at noon in the morning we drink you at sundown
we drink you and we drink you
a man lives in the house your golden hair Margarete
your ashen hair Shulamith he plays with the serpents

He calls out more sweetly play death death is a master from Germany
he calls out more darkly now stroke your strings then as smoke you will rise into air
then a grave you will have in the clouds there one lies unconfined

Black milk of daybreak we drink you at night
we drink you at noon death is a master from Germany
we drink you at sundown and in the morning we drink and we drink you
death is a master from Germany his eyes are blue
he strikes you with leaden bullets his aim is true
a man lives in the house your golden hair Margarete
he sets his pack on to us he grants us a grave in the air
he plays with the serpents and daydreams death is a master from Germany
your golden hair Margarete
your ashen hair Shulamith 
_

Trans. Michael Hamburger

----------


## JuniperWoolf

> Personally, I think the Holocaust and WWII and Hitler are all historical events that are no more nor less valid as themes for the artist/author. Like any other historical narrative, be it the old America West, the American Civil War, the Revolutionary War, the French Revolution, the Cultural Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the 30-Years War, the Napoleonic wars, etc... I feel WWII, the Holocaust, and Hitler should be open to various artistic explorations, whether reverent, revisionist, or even comic.


I don't think you'll see that any time soon, not with the Holocaust anyway (we already have some fun stuff with Hitler, lots of it in fact - Inglorious Bastards, my sixth favorite modern episode of Doctor Who in which they accidently save Hitler's life, the South Park song in which Hitler is sad because he can't find a Christmas tree in hell, &c). It's still too soon for many people, especially people who aren't Jewish, to feel comfortable seeking money by creating Holocaust art/literature. *shrug* Not that I'm against it, I just don't think it will happen and not because the Holocaust is disturbing, but because many of the survivors are still alive. No one cares if you bolster your bank account using the French Revolution, the people you're profiting off of are long dead so it isn't as tasteless (and it's the financial success and fame which Spiegelman had hang-ups over, not the artistic expression itself). Give it another fifty years and I think you'll see your "various artistic explorations."

...Seriously though, Holocaust comedy? How would that even be done?

----------


## cafolini

I am amazed at the rotund ignorance of these late posts, mainly because these partial and crazy perspectives were not revealed directly up to this point.

----------


## JuniperWoolf

> I am amazed at the rotund ignorance of these late posts, mainly because these partial and crazy perspectives were not revealed directly up to this point.


Okay, I'll bite.

Cafolini, what the hell are you talking about _now_?

----------


## cafolini

> Okay, I'll bite.
> 
> Cafolini, what the hell are you talking about _now_?


Don't bite, please. You've done enough of that. Kiss for a while.

----------


## Charles Darnay

> ...Seriously though, Holocaust comedy? How would that even be done?


"Life is Beautiful" - Roberto Benigni. 

While it is in itself not a comedy, it explores the idea of "the comic side of the Holocaust." 

Case and point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y9aKqawdUQ

----------


## Alexander III

> ...Seriously though, Holocaust comedy? How would that even be done?


Quite easily, I don't know about you but my friends and I often joke about it in conversation, along with a variety of such topics. I think most guys in their late teens, early 20's could spout off half a dozen halocoust jokes on the spot, rather easily.

The more sublime something is the greater it's potential for the ridicoulous, in my experiance.

----------


## mal4mac

"The Reader" by Bernhard Schlink, I haven't read the book but the film is very good. I have read his latest - "The Weekend", which is based on Bader-Meinhoff, and it's a thought provoking page turner.

----------


## Mutatis-Mutandis

> It was great. The author gave me one of my favorite quotes ever: "the opposite of love is not hate - it is indifference."
> 
> Not a fictional story, though.





> And I wouldn't call "Night" a young-adult novel, although it is being introduced in high schools. I think that, along with "Man's Search For Meaning" are two essential reads when it comes to Holocaust memoirs.


Interesting. As you can tell, I'm quite ignorant of the book. I just need to read it.

As to holocaust comedy, I, like Alexander, no several extremely inappropriate holocaust jokes. Also, surely there is some sketch comedy dealing with the holocaust, no? Did Monty Python ever go there?

And I would also like to know what cafolini is on about this time. We mere mortals must be enlightened as to our great misunderstanding of history, as usual, and then ol' caf can declare the case closed!

----------


## Emil Miller

> "The Reader" by Bernhard Schlink, I haven't read the book but the film is very good. I have read his latest - "The Weekend", which is based on Bader-Meinhoff, and it's a thought provoking page turner.


What makes it thought provoking?

----------


## cafolini

> Interesting. As you can tell, I'm quite ignorant of the book. I just need to read it.
> 
> As to holocaust comedy, I, like Alexander, no several extremely inappropriate holocaust jokes. Also, surely there is some sketch comedy dealing with the holocaust, no? Did Monty Python ever go there?
> 
> And I would also like to know what cafolini is on about this time. We mere mortals must be enlightened as to our great misunderstanding of history, as usual, and then ol' caf can declare the case closed!


One could discuss the holocaust with the knowledgeable who know it was no comedy nor a light matter. There is not enough sensible material to even open a discussion in this case. It has been closed from the start with extremely poor information, propaganda and disinformation.
The waters are not very tranquil today, with Iran trying to arm Venezuela and possibly causing a war by closing the channel. We'll see what happens as it proceeds. Ignorance and naivete have gone rampart.

----------


## Darcy88

> Ignorance and naivete have gone rampart.


Classic Cafolini right there.

----------


## Emil Miller

> Classic Cafolini right there.


Yes it's amazing that his alter ego, G L Wilson, is sitting somewhere in Australia without realising that his spirit lives on in the LitNet forums.

----------


## sixsmith

_Time's Arrow_ - Martin Amis. The tale of a Nazi doctor told in reverse chronology. Thus, corpses are given life, families are reunited, ghettos are dissolved etc. The closest thing to a comic rendering of the Holocaust that I've encountered, though the inverted time scheme wears thin rather quickly and I suspect it numbers among Amis' lesser novel

----------


## JuniperWoolf

> Don't bite, please. You've done enough of that. Kiss for a while.


Haha, well. _That_ took an unexpected turn. 




> Quite easily, I don't know about you but my friends and I often joke about it in conversation, along with a variety of such topics.


We do that too. The humour lies in how extremely inappropriate we're being though, if they were to be on tv or in a newspaper comic strip or something I don't think it would go over well.

----------


## Drkshadow03

Well, let's see we have St Luke's offensive rant where he celebrates the ideas of a dubious scholar like Finklestein, compares the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to Nazi Germany (despite the obvious facts that under Nazi Germany the Jewish populations size and life expectancy were reduced and under Israeli occupation we see the opposite result for the Palestinians, meaning if Israeli forces are Nazis they're extremely incompetent ones), confuses the reprehensible actions of one older Jewish artist he knows with the rest of the Jewish population (the very definition of racial stereotyping), and then wonders why it is difficult to write a comedy about the tragic murder of 6 million+ people.

Nevertheless, there are comical novels being written about the Holocaust or elements of the Holocaust such as Shalom Auslander's new novel, Hope: A Tragedy. Then, of course, there is the Spring Time for Hitler scene in The Producers.

----------


## mortalterror

> Nevertheless, there are comical novels being written about the Holocaust or elements of the Holocaust such as Shalom Auslander's new novel, Hope: A Tragedy. Then, of course, there is the Spring Time for Hitler scene in The Producers.


Don't forget Life is Beautiful and Jakob the Liar.




> _Time's Arrow_ - Martin Amis. The tale of a Nazi doctor told in reverse chronology. Thus, corpses are given life, families are reunited, ghettos are dissolved etc. The closest thing to a comic rendering of the Holocaust that I've encountered, though the inverted time scheme wears thin rather quickly and I suspect it numbers among Amis' lesser novel


The British comedy show Red Dwarf did an episode like that two years before Amis' novel came out. He probably saw or heard about it.

----------


## mal4mac

> What makes it [ "The Weekend" ] thought provoking?


It had me wondering if Baader-Meinhoff had the right ideas about dealing with bankers! But, of course, B-M didn't solve anything. Still, thinking about this book threw into sharp relief how pitifully little our politicians are doing to sort out the financial crises, deal properly bankers bonuses, and help the poorest people in society and the world. 

To get back on topic "The Reader" really highlighted the complicity that ordinary Germans had in the holocaust, and how many of them got away without punishment of any kind. 

Schlink maybe lacks a little in literary values, like "depth of characterisation", But, on my admittedly cursory encounters, he seems to be a top-notch political commentator and thriller writer.

----------


## PoeticPassions

> Ignorance and naivete have gone rampart.





> Classic Cafolini right there.


The best part is that rampant was spelled wrong... unless Caf meant that ignorance and naivete have gone 'defensive wall' on us....

----------


## PoeticPassions

I also found this list... these are popular, of course, which does not mean all are very good or great literature:
http://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/holocaust-fiction

----------


## Alexander III

I second The Reader as a great book - the prose is solid but not beautifull but were it really shines is in portraying that complex and unique inter generation conflic betwen the parents who supported/stayed silent during the nazi regime and the younger generation discovering all the horrors of the nazis and being disgsusted that their paernts just stood by and aplauded the whole time.

----------


## Darcy88

> Well, let's see we have St Luke's offensive rant where he celebrates the ideas of a dubious scholar like Finklestein, compares the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to Nazi Germany (despite the obvious facts that under Nazi Germany the Jewish populations size and life expectancy were reduced and under Israeli occupation we see the opposite result for the Palestinians, meaning if Israeli forces are Nazis they're extremely incompetent ones), confuses the reprehensible actions of one older Jewish artist he knows with the rest of the Jewish population (the very definition of racial stereotyping), and then wonders why it is difficult to write a comedy about the tragic murder of 6 million+ people.
> 
> Nevertheless, there are comical novels being written about the Holocaust or elements of the Holocaust such as Shalom Auslander's new novel, Hope: A Tragedy. Then, of course, there is the Spring Time for Hitler scene in The Producers.


Struggling....struggling very hard not to launch into a political tirade. 

We've seen with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that the Jewish victims have become the victimizers. That's all I'll say about that.

I do agree that the holocaust is not appropriate material for comedy. That film _Life is Beautiful_ attempted to find humour within the horror rather than turn that horror into humour. There is a difference. 

The only holocaust book I've read is The Diary of Anne Frank, though I guess it wouldn't count as fiction. 

"The premier demand upon all education is that Auschwitz not happen again. Its priority before any other requirement is such that I believe I need not and should not justify it. I cannot understand why it has been given so little concern until now. To justify it would be monstrous in the face of the monstrosity that took place. Yet the fact that one is so barely conscious of this demand and the questions it raises shows that the monstrosity has not penetrated peoples minds deeply, itself a symptom of the continuing potential for its recurrence as far as peoples conscious and unconscious is concerned. Every debate about the ideals of education is trivial and inconsequential compared to this single ideal: never again Auschwitz."

Adorno

----------


## Alexander III

> Well, let's see we have St Luke's offensive rant where he celebrates the ideas of a dubious scholar like Finklestein, compares the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to Nazi Germany (despite the obvious facts that under Nazi Germany the Jewish populations size and life expectancy were reduced and under Israeli occupation we see the opposite result for the Palestinians, meaning if Israeli forces are Nazis they're extremely incompetent ones), confuses the reprehensible actions of one older Jewish artist he knows with the rest of the Jewish population (the very definition of racial stereotyping), and then wonders why it is difficult to write a comedy about the tragic murder of 6 million+ people.
> 
> Nevertheless, there are comical novels being written about the Holocaust or elements of the Holocaust such as Shalom Auslander's new novel, Hope: A Tragedy. Then, of course, there is the Spring Time for Hitler scene in The Producers.


Just because one man is good at applying himself in the real world, and another man is ineffectual; doesn't mean that their passions don't burn brightly with the same desires.

----------


## stlukesguild

Well, let's see we have St Luke's offensive rant where he celebrates the ideas of a dubious scholar like Finklestein, compares the Palestinian-Israeli conflict to Nazi Germany (despite the obvious facts that under Nazi Germany the Jewish populations size and life expectancy were reduced and under Israeli occupation we see the opposite result for the Palestinians, meaning if Israeli forces are Nazis they're extremely incompetent ones), confuses the reprehensible actions of one older Jewish artist he knows with the rest of the Jewish population (the very definition of racial stereotyping), and then wonders why it is difficult to write a comedy about the tragic murder of 6 million+ people.

Now let me see... all of my comments wouldn't happen to be "offensive" just because I dared to raise questions about Israel and the fact that we may have turned a blind eye to their offenses out of a sense of guilt. I can't comment in any detail on Finklestein... he may or may not be a scholar of "dubious" credibility, but then again I don't think I'd take the word of someone whose view of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict seem to be to suggest that somehow the Palestinians are better off under the current Israeli rule. Didn't Barbara Bush say something to that effect about the poor Black population of New Orleans after the Hurricane Katrina forced their evacuation to temporary shelters in Texas? But isn't this exactly the issue that I raised? The idea that the Holocaust has resulted in giving the Israelis something of a _cart blanc_ where one cannot even raise the least question concerning the actions of the Israel or the United States' support for the same without being accused of antisemitism.

----------


## stlukesguild

"The premier demand upon all education is that Auschwitz not happen again. Its priority before any other requirement is such that I believe I need not and should not justify it. I cannot understand why it has been given so little concern until now. To justify it would be monstrous in the face of the monstrosity that took place. Yet the fact that one is so barely conscious of this demand and the questions it raises shows that the monstrosity has not penetrated peoples minds deeply, itself a symptom of the continuing potential for its recurrence as far as peoples conscious and unconscious is concerned. Every debate about the ideals of education is trivial and inconsequential compared to this single ideal: never again Auschwitz."

Adorno

I fully agree. The central issue that should be emphasized when teaching the Holocaust, American slavery, the massacre of the Native Americans, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Dresden, the Stalinist purges, the Cultural Revolution should be "never again".

The unique "value" of teaching the history of the Holocaust lies with ability to illustrate how the most "cultured", educated and "sophisticated" of cultures (and individuals) can embrace the greatest of evils. We can witness humanity dark side at work in our own back yard as well as on the other side of the globe.

----------


## Drkshadow03

> [COLOR="DarkRed"] Now let me see... all of my comments wouldn't happen to be "offensive" just because I dared to raise questions about Israel and the fact that we may have turned a blind eye to their offenses out of a sense of guilt. I can't comment in any detail on Finklestein... he may or may not be a scholar of "dubious" credibility, but then again I don't think I'd take the word of someone whose view of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict seem to be to suggest that somehow the Palestinians are better off under the current Israeli rule. Didn't Barbara Bush say something to that effect about the poor Black population of New Orleans after the Hurricane Katrina forced their evacuation to temporary shelters in Texas? But isn't this exactly the issue that I raised? The idea that the Holocaust has resulted in giving the Israelis something of a _cart blanc_ where one cannot even raise the least question concerning the actions of the Israel or the United States' support for the same without being accused of antisemitism.


No, it’s offensive because what you said is repugnant to good taste and moral sense. You and the thousands of other people who mindlessly parrot the Nazi meme could have compared the conflict and Israeli behavior to tons of other regimes and atrocities, but notice which regime you picked. That’s what makes it offensive (it's in fact purposely designed to offend). I don't care that you criticize Israel; some of Israel's behavior should be criticized as they have done reprehensible things. Not to mention you did it in a thread about Holocaust fiction, which is itself offensive, and compounded it all by suggesting many Jews are just profiteering off their own tragedy. I think the offensiveness of it speaks for itself.

----------


## sixsmith

> No, it’s offensive because what you said is repugnant to good taste and moral sense. You and the thousands of other people who mindlessly parrot the Nazi meme could have compared the conflict and Israeli behavior to tons of other regimes and atrocities, but notice which regime you picked. That’s what makes it offensive (it's in fact purposely designed to offend). I don't care that you criticize Israel; some of Israel's behavior should be criticized as they have done reprehensible things. Not to mention you did it in a thread about Holocaust fiction, which is itself offensive, and compounded it all by suggesting many Jews are just profiteering off their own tragedy. I think the offensiveness of it speaks for itself.


I think you're simply begging the question here Drk. Indeed, the invocation of 'good taste' and 'moral sense', _tout court_, is exactly the kind of uncritical reaction to which stlukes is referring. Rather than engage with the assertion/possibility that a small number of Jews are using the Holocaust for personal gain, you simply dismiss it as an example of 'offensiveness speaking for itself'. That takes us no closer to the truth or otherwise of the contention.

----------


## Mutatis-Mutandis

> and compounded it all by suggesting many Jews are just profiteering off their own tragedy.


While StLukes said some offensive stuff, but I'm not sure he insinuated that when he gave the example of his one a-hole friend (which had me laughing), unless I missed something.

----------


## Drkshadow03

> I think you're simply begging the question here Drk. Indeed, the invocation of 'good taste' and 'moral sense', _tout court_, is exactly the kind of uncritical reaction to which stlukes is referring. Rather than engage with the assertion/possibility that Jews are using the Holocaust for personal gain, you simply dismiss it as an example of 'offensiveness speaking for itself'.


Fair enough. What evidence has he provided for his assertion that Jews use the Holocaust for personal gain? 

1) He mentions one incident of an old Jewish artist that he knows attempting to do it. The big problem here being he offers one isolated concrete example (in which we have take his word for it).

2) The second part of his argument, which is really just an assertion to support an assertion, is about people being unable to criticize Israel because of the Holocaust, despite the fact that people criticize Israel, well, all the freaking time (on C-Span, on Zionist websites, on Far left websites, on Far Right websites, on anti-Zionist websites, in public conversation, on a train, on a plane, in a car, and at the bar, and even while eating Green Eggs and Ham). Having participated in quite a few conversations in which Israel is being criticized, I've rarely seen anyone defending Israel by bringing up the Holocaust as a rebuttal to the specific points or to silence conversation on the topic. 

Given that this topic is supposed to be about Holocaust fiction, he could of course provide specific examples of artistic work about the Holocaust that he believes only purpose is for profiteering and inducing a guilt trip.

----------


## stlukesguild

No, its offensive because what you said is repugnant to good taste and moral sense. You and the thousands of other people who mindlessly parrot the Nazi meme could have compared the conflict and Israeli behavior to tons of other regimes and atrocities, but notice which regime you picked. Thats what makes it offensive (it's in fact purposely designed to offend).

I fully agree that the abuses of Israel are not on the level of those of the Nazi's during the Holocaust. I personally find the usual analogies to Hitler and the Holocaust (G.W. Bush as a Nazi, Obama as a Nazi, etc...) to be at once insulting and absurd in that they so grossly overstate the facts. My comparison of Israel with the Nazis lies in the fact that it has been the Holocaust which has been long used as an excuse for any such behavior and a means of deflecting any criticism. It has also been used as a means of garnering financial and political support for Israel among the American Jewish population resulting in years of continual American entanglements in the Middle-East as we try to placate both sides. I don't accept the notion of the Holocaust justifying Israeli abuses anymore than I accept the idea that slavery in the United States justifies crime in the urban neighborhoods, or the continued American dependence upon oil justifies our continued involvement in Middle-Eastern conflicts. It goes some way toward an explanation... but not a justification.

----------


## Drkshadow03

> No, it’s offensive because what you said is repugnant to good taste and moral sense. You and the thousands of other people who mindlessly parrot the Nazi meme could have compared the conflict and Israeli behavior to tons of other regimes and atrocities, but notice which regime you picked. That’s what makes it offensive (it's in fact purposely designed to offend).
> 
> I fully agree that the abuses of Israel are not on the level of those of the Nazi's during the Holocaust. I personally find the usual analogies to Hitler and the Holocaust (G.W. Bush as a Nazi, Obama as a Nazi, etc...) to be at once insulting and absurd in that they so grossly overstate the facts. My comparison of Israel with the Nazis lies in the fact that it has been the Holocaust which has been long used as an excuse for any such behavior and a means of deflecting any criticism. It has also been used as a means of garnering financial and political support for Israel among the American Jewish population resulting in years of continual American entanglements in the Middle-East as we try to placate both sides. I don't accept the notion of the Holocaust justifying Israeli abuses anymore than I accept the idea that slavery in the United States justifies crime in the urban neighborhoods, or the continued American dependence upon oil justifies our continued involvement in Middle-Eastern conflicts. It goes some way toward an explanation... but not a justification.


 :Iagree:  for the most part. I'm glad you're choosing to be more rational in your response. 

Nevertheless, I think it's an oversimplification to suggest American Jews only financially and politically support Israel because of holocaust guilt trips. Believe it or not many American Jews feel pride in Israel and Israeli culture for its own sake. Not to mention American Jewry is divided on the issue of Israel anyway, even if it's not a 50-50 split. 

And while I agree the holocaust sometimes comes up in relation to discussions of Israeli, I think critics exaggerate the extent, sometimes are the ones to bring it up themselves as emotionally-charged rhetoric (Israel = Nazis!, denying Palestinian suffering is just as bad as Holocaust denial), and often miss the nuance of the larger discussion.

----------


## sixsmith

> Oh, what evidence has he provided for his assertion that Jews use the Holocaust for personal gain? 
> 
> 1) He mentions one incident of an old Jewish artist that he knows attempting to do it. The big problem here being he offers one isolated concrete example (in which we have take his word for it).
> 
> 2) The second part of his argument, which is really just an assertion to support an assertion, is about people being unable to criticize Israel because of the Holocaust, despite the fact that people criticize Israel, well, all the freaking time (on C-Span, on Zionist websites, on Far left websites, on Far Right websites, on anti-Zionist websites, in public conversation, on a train, on a plane, in a car, and at the bar, and even while eating Green Eggs and Ham). Having participated in quite a few conversations in which Israel is being criticized, I've rarely seen anyone defending Israel by bringing up the Holocaust as a rebuttal to the specific points or to silence conversation on the topic. 
> 
> Given that this topic is supposed to be about Holocaust fiction, he could of course provide specific examples of artistic work about the Holocaust that he believes only purpose is for profiteering and inducing a guilt trip.


1) Fair point. Anecdotal examples don't make for compelling evidence, though I suspect that his claim is attenuated by the fact that this site forbids political discussion and we must be pushing our luck by now. Moreover, I think his point is that any attempt to offer such evidence would be shouted down as anti-semitism.

2) Again, personal experience is a slippery slope. In the many discussions pertaining to the Arab/Israeli conflict in which I have participated or that I have observed, the Holocaust has _frequently_ been invoked to silence, or indeed demonise, particular points of view.

----------


## sixsmith

> No, its offensive because what you said is repugnant to good taste and moral sense. You and the thousands of other people who mindlessly parrot the Nazi meme could have compared the conflict and Israeli behavior to tons of other regimes and atrocities, but notice which regime you picked. Thats what makes it offensive (it's in fact purposely designed to offend).
> 
> I fully agree that the abuses of Israel are not on the level of those of the Nazi's during the Holocaust. I personally find the usual analogies to Hitler and the Holocaust (G.W. Bush as a Nazi, Obama as a Nazi, etc...) to be at once insulting and absurd in that they so grossly overstate the facts. My comparison of Israel with the Nazis lies in the fact that it has been the Holocaust which has been long used as an excuse for any such behavior and a means of deflecting any criticism. It has also been used as a means of garnering financial and political support for Israel among the American Jewish population resulting in years of continual American entanglements in the Middle-East as we try to placate both sides. I don't accept the notion of the Holocaust justifying Israeli abuses anymore than I accept the idea that slavery in the United States justifies crime in the urban neighborhoods, or the continued American dependence upon oil justifies our continued involvement in Middle-Eastern conflicts. It goes some way toward an explanation... but not a justification.


Well said.

----------


## stlukesguild

Given that this topic is supposed to be about Holocaust fiction, he could of course provide specific examples of artistic work about the Holocaust that he believes only purpose is for profiteering and inducing a guilt trip.

Zbigniew Libera, Polish artist, exhibited this conceptual work, Legos Auschwitz at the Jewish Museum in NYC in spite of outcries that the work trivialized the Holocaust. The outrage naturally assured Libera a great deal attention and financial success:





Other examples of artists employing the Holocaust in a questionable manner include Alain Séchas:



Then there's Rudolf Henze' _Zugzwang_ made entirely of photographs of Hitler and Marcel Duchamp. 



Is the artist equating the effects of Duchamp upon the art world with the effects of the Nazis... or is he suggesting that Hitler is akin to an artist? 

Over the years I have come across more than a few such artworks employing not only the Holocaust, but also slavery, AIDS, etc... These works capitalize upon the shock of their subject matter and the artists often take a stance of suggesting that any criticism of their art is akin to criticism of the subject that they are portraying. Pip'c comments upon Maus... and the manner in which the author dealt with depicting the Holocaust and struggling with the notion of making a profit from the Holocaust is what spurred my comments. The entire concept of making a profit from tragedy... atrocity... seems to be something of a gray area to me. While I am adamantly against censorship in any form, I question an artist making a name and profit for himself from images of atrocity... whether it be of the Holocaust... or it be:



or this:



or this:



But perhaps this is indeed a question best left to another thread... so I will leave it there.

----------


## Calidore

All three of those pictures became famous because they were eye-openers for the public. I doubt the photographers were thinking "Money! Fame!" as they snapped them. (At least the first two must have been spur-of-the-moment shots with no time for such calculation.) That assumes, of course, that those photographers even kept the rights to the pictures in the first place. I'd imagine those rights went to the publications they sold them to.

On a tangent: The Vietnamese girl in the center of the first picture was tracked down as an adult some years ago and interviewed. I believe it was in the Chicago Tribune Sunday magazine, though I'm not positive. It's not clear from the grainy picture above, but she is actually on fire from napalm; her clothes had already burned off. I think she was saved by an American soldier nearby. Details escape me, but I remember it was a very interesting interview. Don't know if it's available online anywhere.

----------


## stlukesguild

All three of those pictures became famous because they were eye-openers for the public. I doubt the photographers were thinking "Money! Fame!" as they snapped them.

I somewhat question that idea. Photographers employed as photojournalists are just as mercenary as other aspects of the mass media and fully understand the old motto: "If it bleeds, it leads". The fact that such photographs acted as "eye openers" suggests the use... and manipulation of such of the atrocities for political gain... one way or another.

The Vietnamese girl in the center of the first picture was tracked down as an adult some years ago and interviewed. I believe it was in the Chicago Tribune Sunday magazine, though I'm not positive. It's not clear from the grainy picture above, but she is actually on fire from napalm; her clothes had already burned off. I think she was saved by an American soldier nearby.

I'm not the only one who has questioned such photographs. The painter, David Hockney explored the theme in a book published in 1983 entitled, _On Photography_. Hockney notes that while artists have long had a history of employing imagery of horror and atrocity... one of the most iconic and central images of Western art is the Crucifixion. But the painter is responding to horror and atrocity after the fact. Picasso painted Guernica in an outraged response after the events of the German bombing of the town of Guernica. Hockney points out that as that little Vietnamese girl ran down the road her body aflame from napalm, the photographer could think of nothing better that he might do than to fiddle with his f-stops and adjust for the lighting. As you noted, it was an American soldier, and not the photographer, that threw clothing around her a dowsed the fire. We hear speak of the effects of the media and how excessive images of violence have led to a point of saturation where the audience becomes indifferent, yet is surely takes an almost inhuman degree of indifference to watch a terrified girl on fire running toward you and all you can think is "This will make a great photo!"

----------


## mortalterror

Here's an account of how one photographer won the pulitzer prize in 1993.
http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/20...lking-a-child/

----------


## Taliesin

I have a book waiting in my bookshelf named "Les Bienveillantes". I haven't gotten to reading it(partly because my French isn't that good), but, apparently, it is claimed to be rather good. From Wikipedia:


> The Kindly Ones (French: Les Bienveillantes) is a historical novel written in French by American-born author Jonathan Littell. The 900-page book became a bestseller in France and was widely discussed in newspapers, magazines, academic journals, books and seminars. It was also awarded two of the most prestigious French literary awards, the Grand Prix du roman de l'Académie française and the Prix Goncourt in 2006. As of December 2009 it has been translated into seventeen languages.
> The book is narrated by protagonist Maximilien Aue, a former SS officer of French and German ancestry who helps carry out massacres during the Holocaust, but in the end flees from Germany to start a new life in northern France. Aue is present during several of the major events of World War II.

----------

