# Reading > Religious Texts >  Purpose of a Religious Life

## DumbLikeAPoet

I'm sick of most of the threads in this section so I'm making up one of my own.

There was a discussion in General Discussion dealing with the purpose of life. I would like to talk about the purpose of life from a Christian or any other _religious_  perspective. 

Is the point of a Christian life simply to worship the Lord? Or to be a good person? What are your thoughts?

Jonus

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## crisaor

> _Originally posted by DumbLikeAPoet_ 
> *I'm sick of most of the threads in this section so I'm making up one of my own.*


Hey, that's the best reason I've ever heard. Really.  :Smile:  



> _Originally posted by DumbLikeAPoet_ 
> *There was a discussion in General Discussion dealing with the purpose of life. I would like to talk about the purpose of life from a Christian or any other religious  perspective. 
> Is the point of a Christian life simply to worship the Lord? Or to be a good person? What are your thoughts?*


I don't believe that a christian life (I would include mine it that categorie) is simply about worshipping the Lord in any way. I'm sure he doesn't need it and I don't know if he wants it (all the time I mean). Of course, if you're christian, it makes sense that you do it (by going to church, by praying, by following the principles, etc.), but I don't believe that to be the main purpose. Where would free will enter in this equation otherwise?
Probably, I'm more inclined to the "be a good person" thing. It's difficult, it takes your entire life to do it (either become one or keep being one), and it's self rewarding.

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## subterranean

> _Originally posted by crisaor_ 
> *Hey, that's the best reason I've ever heard. Really.  
> 
> I don't believe that a christian life (I would include mine it that categorie) is simply about worshipping the Lord in any way. I'm sure he doesn't need it and I don't know if he wants it (all the time I mean).*


I think it is about worshipping. Someone once told me that everything you do should be done as an expression of worship. I agree that God doesn't need worhips, but I do think that God wants people to always worship Him.




> *Of course, if you're christian, it makes sense that you do it (by going to church, by praying, by following the principles, etc.), but I don't believe that to be the main purpose. Where would free will enter in this equation otherwise?*


Somehow I think there is no such thing as "free will' in Christianity. It is obvious, if you follow the rule you will be sent to the good heave and if you don't then you'll be doomed forever! And that principle is implied in every aspect of life.

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## Isagel

Interesting question. I´m not a christian. Not anymore. When I was I used to believe that the purpose of my life was striving to be closer to God, closer to infinite love, closer to whatever purpose God had made for us. Like a child jumping to reach the stars, forever out of reach. Trying to remember love in evrything, trying to let it be a part of thought and action. Since that might sound pompous, or worse, selfrighteous, I want to make clear that I did not suceed. 




> _Originally posted by subterranean_ 
> *Somehow I think there is no such thing as "free will' in Christianity. It is obvious, if you follow the rule you will be sent to the good heave and if you don't then you'll be doomed forever! And that principle is implied in every aspect of life.*


I thought that the free will was a central part. I thought of the striving is a free choice, every second of it an action of will. My greatest contestent in this is my other will, based on other motives, like anger or pride or plain despair. Unconditional love is not an easy thing. It´s not a simple solution. It hurts, but so does the absence of love. 




> _Originally posted by subterranean_ 
> *I think it is about worshipping. Someone once told me that everything you do should be done as an expression of worship. I agree that God doesn't need worhips, but I do think that God wants people to always worship Him.*


Worshipping, for me, was a way of giving thank and praise for the joy of it all, the pain of it all, for life and purpose. I did not see worshipping as the purpose on its own, more like a way towards the unknown goal that only God could fully comprehend. 
Perhaps, in the end the striving and worshipping can become one? 

I used to read this part often. 

I Corinthians 13 (Revised Standard Version)

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. 

Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 

Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away. 

When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.

So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

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## crisaor

> _Originally posted by subterranean_ 
> *I think it is about worshipping. Someone once told me that everything you do should be done as an expression of worship. I agree that God doesn't need worhips, but I do think that God wants people to always worship Him.*


If *everything* that I do is considered as an expression of worship, then I'm fu**ed. 



> _Originally posted by subterranean_ 
> *Somehow I think there is no such thing as "free will' in Christianity. It is obvious, if you follow the rule you will be sent to the good heave and if you don't then you'll be doomed forever! And that principle is implied in every aspect of life.*


Somehow, I don't think it's that obvious. I mean, if you take two different parts of the bible, chances are that they contradict each other (specially if you compare the old and the new testament). I don't think it's as simple as you say it is.

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## atiguhya padma

Many people believe that freewill is essential to Christian belief. Can anyone quote a passage of the Bible that directly and specifically refers to freewill as essential?

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## crisaor

I think it's an implicit thing. If God really wanted people to worship him all the time and/or never stray from the path set to them, there would be little or no free will whatsoever.

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## atiguhya padma

<If God really wanted people to worship him all the time and/or never stray from the path set to them, there would be little or no free will whatsoever.>

So God wants people to stray from the path set to them? You mean he wants Santa, I mean Satan, to lead people astray? I can feel a conspiracy theory coming on here... 

A path set to them? This sounds a little deterministic, don't you think?

Personally, I've never understood why Christians don't all pray for God and Satan to be pals again. After all, wouldn't that then solve most of the worlds problems, if they could just settle their differences? And you know, I'm sure they could do it too, if they put a little effort into it. 

If there was some kind of celestial arbitration council, possibly set up by the angels and a few of the more friendly devils, who knows what might happen? I'm sure it's really just a communication problem, some silly little misunderstanding that could easily be settled over a good bottle of wine or something. There would of course be the problem of what to do with hell, but hey a good landscape gardener, a sufficient amount of palm trees and white sand, a modification on the heating system, and before you know it, Heaven Mark II.

Oh and that reminds me, could someone tell me why an infinitely intelligent being wants a personal dialogue with us humans anyway? I mean imagine you had an IQ of say 195, and everybody else with an IQ over 30 was wiped from the face of the earth. Can you imagine how sad that would be for you? I mean, I'm not knocking low intelligence here, but wouldn't you want to create at least one human being with an IQ similar to yours, if you had the power? Now imagine what it's like for God? And whats worse, is that all those that believe in a personal relationship with him, natter on about stuff he must already know every time they talk to him. In addition, does anyone actually ask him how his day was? Does anyone actually take the time to listen to some of his concerns?

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## crisaor

> _Originally posted by atiguhya padma_ 
> *So God wants people to stray from the path set to them? You mean he wants Santa, I mean Satan, to lead people astray? I can feel a conspiracy theory coming on here...*


Is that supposed to be serious?

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## A poem test

God still loves satan
Yet satan is still
Quite rebellious
This is satan's will

he wants to be God
Not to be with him
satan wants us all
to just live in sin

To join him in hell
It was made for him
He tries to convince
Us to live in sin

Can we know the truth
Using our own mind?
Being so finite?
Will it just unwind?

Can you take a book
And just open it
Read any sentance
And choose based on wit

In light of the whole
Based on what we know
We cannot choose right
We need God to show

The meaning of life
If you want to know
Ask the creator
And the truth He'll show

You can live your life
Making your own way
But will you gamble
On the price to pay?

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## atiguhya padma

I will not ask a question
That has no conclusive end.
I cannot expect an answer
From an imaginary friend

Too right, I will live my life
Simply making my own way
You see, to join the flock of sheep
There's a dreadful price to pay.

You suggest that the truth, you
Being finite, you can't find.
In this case, it would seem to me,
That you seldom use your mind.

God did not reveal to us
This truth in his holy book
And when Pilate asked the Preacher
Jesus merely turned his back

So who made Hell for Satan?
Who knew what he would do?
And who placed the fruit in Eden?
Then told Adam of it too?

And who could have saved the lives
Of over six million Jews?
But instead just watched their slaughter.
The God of Love that's who.

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## subterranean

> _Originally posted by atiguhya padma_ 
> Personally, I've never understood why Christians don't all pray for God and Satan to be pals again. After all, wouldn't that then solve most of the worlds problems, if they could just settle their differences? And you know, I'm sure they could do it too, if they put a little effort into it.


This is the impossible task. Some said there's no such thing as IMPOSSIBLE thing that God can't do. Actually there is. Of course if you're reffering to * TAOISM* , then it's not an impossible thing. But when it comes to Christianity, well till the end of the world, the two parties will never settled their problems. 

And that's why I often think that there's no free will in Christianity.
I remember one verse that more or less mean like "you can't stand in the middle, either u bad or good." Somewhere in Revelation I guess.

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## joshil

"Meaninglessness comes from being weary of pleasure rather than pain "

Its true...mans goal from a christian point of view is ...life is meant for worship....i sturggled quite abit with this simple answer until read Ravi Zacharias' 'Can man live without God'...

THe dude used a secular framework and used it to uniqely blend in something so...beautiful.....worship

For life to have meaning there must be certain things present
-wonder
-truth
-love
-security

i wont spend time explainin how it all fits in....ill recommend you to read the book......

I know that some of you deny the very existence of.....my question to you would be....do you even want God to exist?....would his existence bind you in the way that you want not to be bound?....

The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult, and left untried.

In my existence if ive learnt something it is this...he is why i live...i dont lie when i tell you that life would have to purpose without God...what would be the purpose of laboring and struggling on in life...wouldnt it be much easier to end it all and have nothing to worry about?....

check out www.rzim.com...alotta resources there



http://rzim..com

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## star blue

alright, mr smarty-pants . . . I've got yer question right here: 

do you _want_ santa claus, pixies and bigfoots to exist? cuz I don't think it matters whether you want something, that's just common sense . . . santa claus, pixies and bigfoots do not exist (but then again, more people have seen that big hairy ape than who have actually seen god, so it just goes to show ya). but I'll tell you what, when I used to ride my bike down eight-mile road and through the ghetto, I was never more hopeful that god existed . . . but never more certain that he didn't. can you blame me for not believing?

heh, I found a quarter on the curb today. maybe god wants me to buy a soda pop. 

I'll have to find three more, first.

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## atiguhya padma

Star Blue,

Really like your reply. Made me laugh (especially the bigfoot thing - good point) :Smile: 

Atiguhya Padma

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## A poem test

If you ask a question
and then you turn your head
you won't get an answer
you'll get a lie instead

you can answer yourself
tell me what good is that
If you seek an answer
but you don't want one back

now the truth of the world
you can see its effects
it is not tangible
and yet still it affects

God won't ever force you
to do something or not
for He gives you a choice
to do all that you want

and for any reason
you can go grab a gun
and He will not stop you
if you go shoot someone

you can live your life through
any way that you want
but that won't change the truth
it'll just make you hot

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## joshil

you misunderstand me just abit...or maybe i wasnt clear enough...probably the latter is more true :-)

What i am trying to do is find a correlation between ones will and ones belief...sometimes no matter how many miracles we see we will not believe...how many miracles Jesus did yet so many still did not believe...you will never know christianity totally unless you experience it the way God wants one to.

So you used to ride your bikke down through the ghetto ay? Its true. Its sad to see so many so poor and living in herendous conditions but without God what will be the big deal anyway....theyll all die the same death whether rich or poor......sometimes without God being in the equation even the question does not seem to make sense...what is being violated when there is no purpose or essence? So sir/madam...if your passing through the ghetto(is that a good or bad thing? if so how do you define good?) do you expect your feeling alone to somehow point to God

Gods word says that "man has beeen made without excuse"

Sir/Madam....willing you be willing to go Gods way if he goes your way?

ill say this again dude....check out this site and download a few things from there www.rzim.com

oh btw....ive given my explanation of what i think life means....what is it that you feel is meaning/purpose? Every worldview has to answer this question not just Christianity

Godbless

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## bbq13

personally, i think that the purpose of life is to be as good and as best as one can be... 

i have no gods or demons... no heaven nor hell... only what i believe in...

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## joshil

lol thats funny....good as one can be ay

could you most kindly define what good is? good to one man may well evil in the eyes of another?

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## joshil

We believe in Marxfreudanddarwin.
We believe everything is OK
as long as you don't hurt anyone,
to the best definition of hurt,
and to the best of your knowledge.

We believe in sex before, during and after marriage.
We believe in the therapy of sin.
We believe that adultery is fun.
We believe that sodomy's OK.
We believe that taboos are taboo.

We believe that everything's getting better,
despite evidence to the contrary.
The evidence must be investigated
And you can prove anything with evidence.

We believe that there's something in horoscopes,
UFO's and bent spoons;
Jesus was a good man just like Buddha,
Mohammed and ourselves.
He was a good moral teacher although we think
His good morals were bad.

We believe that all religions are basically the same --
at least the one that we read was.
They all believe in love and goodness.
They only differ on matters of creation,
sin, heaven, hell, God, and salvation.

We believe that after death comes the Nothing
Because when you ask the dead what happens
they say nothing.
If death is not the end, if the dead have lied, then it's compulsory heaven for all
excepting perhaps
Hitler, Stalin and Genghis Khan.

We belive in Masters and Johnson.
What's selected is average.
What's average is normal.
What's normal is good.

We believe in total disarmament.
We believe there are direct links between warfare and bloodshed.
Americans should beat their guns into tractors
and the Russians would be sure to follow.

We believe that man is essentially good.
It's only his behavior that lets him down.
This is the fault of society.
Society is the fault of conditions.
Conditions are the fault of society.

We believe that each man must find the truth that is right for him.
Reality will adapt accordingly.
The universe will readjust.
History will alter.
We believe that there is no absolute truth
excepting the truth
that there is no absolute truth.

We believe in the rejection of creeds,
and the flowering of individual thought.

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## atiguhya padma

A Poem Test wrote;

<God won't ever force you
to do something or not
for He gives you a choice
to do all that you want

and for any reason
you can go grab a gun
and He will not stop you
if you go shoot someone>

APT,

God will force you to die. He doesn't give you a choice over death (other then the silly notion of choosing to accept Jesus and go to Heaven) and their are many other things that God gives you no choice over, such as genetic diseases. Will God allow you to live in this life on earth forever? Did God allow Adam and Eve to stay in Paradise? Did they have a choice once God had fooled them into taking the forbidden fruit? Did Judas have a choice when he betrayed Jesus? When Jesus claimed that the betraying disciple would dip their bread into their soup after him, did all the dsiciples continue to have a free choice? How would that be possible, unless Jesus could then have been a liar? It all went to plan. One of the disciples was forced by Jesus's statement to betray him. It really is silly to say that "God won't ever force you to do something or not for He gives you a choice to do all that you want".

Were you to stand next to me and grab a gun, and try to shoot somebody, I would do my best to restrain you - for your benefit and for the benefit of others. Likewise, if somebody was threatening you and I had the ability to prevent them I would, for their benefit and for yours. Any moral or ethical practice that justifies you allowing people to kill each other just so that they can maintain some kind of free choice, is a practice that cannot claim to be moral or ethical in my opinion. I guess you can't agree with the prison system or the justice system, both of these systems seem to operate on the idea that people should not have the freewill to harm, maim or kill each other. 

The fact is, should your life be in danger, your God wouldn't lift a finger. Even were you to beg him for mercy, as I'm sure many of the victims of Auschwitz would have done, he still wouldn't help you. If there were two people you loved who wanted to destroy each other, then would you allow them to out of respect for their freewill? And if you did, do you think people would admire you for your love for them?

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## A poem test

God gives you a choice of life 
Just as I said before
But if you choose to live a lie
He can't help you any more

Jesus healed throughout the land
He weeps when you die in sin
Death was not part of the plan
He made you to be with Him

What happens if you turn from God
And not accept His sacrifice
You lose the benefits of His rod
And you lose His paradise

If you did have faith in God
You would know heaven is better
You wouldn't fear of death at all
Or want to live on earth forever

You have your free will right now
And youre choosing to reject Him
He loves enough to die for You
And forgive you of your sin

The fact is that tragedy happens
When we don't listen to Him
That's when His plans get ruined
When we choose to live in sin

But God knows what will happen
And changes evil into good
He told us what to do
But man misunderstood

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## star blue

'lose the benefits of his _rod_'! man, are you sure we should be taking advice from a pervert?

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## fayefaye

hey, we take advice from you.  :Tongue:

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## atiguhya padma

A Poem Test,

Tragedy happens whether you listen to him or not! You yourself said that he won't stop somebody wanting to shoot you. And, following your freewill argument, it doesn't matter how much you ask for his help in such a situation. Is this not tragic? BTW is there never intercession? If God ever intercedes, does this intercession only ever occur when somebody's freewill is respected? Or is it that this freewill argument is plainly silly?

Atiguhya Padma

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## atiguhya padma

A Poem Test

I suggest your seriously think about what you have written here:

<But God knows what will happen
And changes evil into good
He told us what to do
But man misunderstood>

God knows that we will misunderstand, but he tells us anyway. Rather pointless wouldn't you say? Furthermore, God knows who will follow him, who will go to Heaven, its all been planned out. Makes freewill a bit pointless too, doesn't it?

Atiguhya Padma

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## A poem test

Tragedy happens whether you listen to him or not!
It's the man with the gun who didn't listen to God

When God intercedes
Then the evil recedes

The man chooses to shoot
God is as the kevlar vest
Not holding the shooter back
But giving the victim rest

Why do you play a game
If you know You're going to win?
If you know you cannot lose
why do you even begin?

Yes indeed my friend
This discussion has come to an end
The truth is what it is
On mans thoughts it does not depend

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## subterranean

> _Originally posted by star blue_ 
> *alright, mr smarty-pants . . . I've got yer question right here: 
> 
> do you want santa claus, pixies and bigfoots to exist? cuz I don't think it matters whether you want something, that's just common sense . . . santa claus, pixies and bigfoots do not exist (but then again, more people have seen that big hairy ape than who have actually seen god, so it just goes to show ya). but I'll tell you what, when I used to ride my bike down eight-mile road and through the ghetto, I was never more hopeful that god existed . . . but never more certain that he didn't. can you blame me for not believing?
> 
> heh, I found a quarter on the curb today. maybe god wants me to buy a soda pop. 
> 
> I'll have to find three more, first.*



What's wrong if those stuffs do exist?  :Rolleyes:  If some one want to believe those things, so be it! You wanna called them fool? Who can say for sure that there's no white crow?

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## joshil

so anyway......back to the purpose of life...sometimes we are quick to ridicule others while dont have one explanation of our own....whats yours?

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## joshil

hmmmm......are there any "seekers" here or am i in a midst of people trying to get their 'irrefutable"points across??

i was just wondering whether its any use for me to reason in this forum?

is there a soul that is willing to listen without being so easily angered?

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## subterranean

Count me in Josh, actually I'm also trying to find the answer. The thing is I think it's kinda useless to discuss about it, since it's related to subjective opinion.

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## DumbLikeAPoet

> _Originally posted by joshil_ 
> *hmmmm......are there any "seekers" here or am i in a midst of people trying to get their 'irrefutable"points across??
> 
> i was just wondering whether its any use for me to reason in this forum?
> 
> is there a soul that is willing to listen without being so easily angered?*


Personnaly I'd say no, nobody is listening. Possibly a year ago you could have had a discussion here instead of an argument but those days are past. I'm sure at some point they will return but unfornately not for a while. 

Jonus

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## joshil

oh well then....thats enough for me....enough wasting time here

im back to reading my books :-)

ps. opinion if truth has the potential to sound subjective to some people

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## Isagel

Actually I still find the discussion interesting. And I´m still seeking. A lot of people here will not settle for easy answers. That is good, in my opinion. It does not mean that they are not seeking something as well. 

What is the purpose of a religous life? Is it different to other purposes?

For me personally it is a question I have been struggling with, since I lost faith. I tried to describe my old views in the beginning of the discussion. 

The question of free will, seems to be central so far. I´m trying to find a good answer to Atiguhya Padma questions. I like the challenge. 

But, so far the only answer I´ve come up with is that having free will is not the same thing as always getting what you want. I just means that I have the ablity to decide what it is I want. To think. I believe in free will. I also belive that every man and woman contains many diffrent wants. As somebody said - the good things I want to do I do not. But the bad things i do not want to do I do. 

The struggle between wishes was important for me, and still is I guess. What makes us do good things? God? Our own will? Love? What is good things?

Mm. I need to elaborate my answer I think. I do not think atiguhya padma will settle for that. It´s is a flawed and perhaps circular argument. Good if she finds the flaws in it. It keeps me seeking. I´m not expecting to find an answer. People with The One Truth scares me.

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## joshil

http://resources.christianity.com/mi...rchItems.jhtml

to tell you the truth im surprised that people are still looking for an answer....yet thankful that i dont have to go away disappointed knowing that i didnt just give more material for mistepretation. Ive decided to stick around.

the above link is a direct link to the recources section of ravi zacharias (it even has a meaning of life sermon...and its not as 'extreme christianity' as you may think..my adivce to you...try it....he explains things much better then i ever could....please do give him a try....listen atleast to one whole sermon...please

bottom is another link to the top 5 questions asked by students
answered reasonably well considering time constraints


http://home.christianity.com/local/s...ravi+zacharias

Alot of people have trouble opening up to the fact that truth is ONE....you prove me when you speak for you say that not my truth but your truth is right....thats why the old mystic says...."those you speak do not know....those who know do not speak"

Sir/Mam....if you dont expect to find an answer i hope you start now believing you will...free will sir is a tough topic to understand...even for me...but please do not give up hope...sometimes we dont have to comprhensively understand something to accept it...but we sometimes first have to understand the purpose of life...and define lifes every other problem with that answer to the one important question

Many times we define purpose by our goals....it ought to be the other way around..goals defined by our purpose for life

i respect each ones opinion and tolerate it (ofcourse we often mistake tolerancce with acceptance dont we)..ill respect you still...i pray you will do the same...theres no need for anger or hatred...you never give someone a rose to smell after ccutting off their noses now do you

ps.Just out of curiousity how old are you guys around here searching for meaning.....

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## star blue

I'm thirteen.

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## fayefaye

*rolling eyes at star blue*
*re-reading the post and rolling my eyes again*

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## joshil

same....well atleast i think its good to start asking the questions early

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## star blue

can't a little boy search for meaning in silence? 

y'all are brutalizin me.

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## joshil

sorry sorry....im only 18 myself

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## fayefaye

Josh, star blue isn't really 13. Hence why I was rolling my eyes.

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## joshil

lol thanks fayefaye

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## star blue

sorry, joshil . . .

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## joshil

so did anyone check out the sites i recommended?

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## subterranean

> _Originally posted by Isagel_ 
> * For me personally it is a question I have been struggling with, since I lost faith. I tried to describe my old views in the beginning of the discussion. 
> 
> *


Just curious Isagel, what was the thing that really made you lost faith?

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## Isagel

Actually, I studied the bible. No, I´m not sarcastic. 

I´m going to check out the page, Joshil. I just haven´t had time yet. 

But what happend to the discussion? What is the purpose of a religious life?

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## joshil

YAY!!!! Give it up for Isagel
I sorta gave my answer earlier.....so now im wondering
what is the purpose of a 'non religious' life?

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## atiguhya padma

Purpose of a religious life: to fool yourself into a sense of security.

Purpose of a non-religious life: to live. Now.

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## joshil

lol so you live while i fool myself into being secure
so tell me....am i still livin or is it something are 'you' define as living?
By living now are you still secure....secure about what? That youre happy 'now'?
To not take tomorrow into perpective is to dig a grave for ourselves though isnt it?

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## atiguhya padma

Do tell me how you take tomorrow into perspective!

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## atiguhya padma

OK To make it simpler for you Joshil:

Purpose of a religious life: psychological fix
non-religious: biological continuation.

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## joshil

hey there
thanks for the quick reply...lol...youre online with me
im surprised you dont know....or act like so
whatever the case i try my best to explain
taking tomorrow into perspective is simply considering what tomorrow is going to bring (consequences) for what i do today :-)

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## joshil

lol cool....this is fun but i dont think i can continue for long
getting pretty late here
SO is doing whatever we feel like the prupose of non-religious life? whatever feels right to the majority is meaningful and the minorities feelings automatically are 'evil'?
Dont you think meaningless comes from being weary of pleasure rather than pain?
pyschological fix is one way to describe it for some.....but DO TELL ME....what is it that needs fixing? Werent we 'fixable' in a non religious thingie :-) 
Bless ya Love
Gotta Go

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## atiguhya padma

To not take tomorrow into perspective is probably not to dig a grave for yourself at all. Plenty of people go along with their day-to-day business without worrying about tomorrow. I don't see them dropping like flies on the street.

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## joshil

Can i ask you a question
If GOd gave you a chance to define hsi existence
Would you like him to exist or not?

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## atiguhya padma

This seems a really meaningless question. If God existed he could not give me the chance to define his existence. His existence would already have been defined.

Whether I would like him to exist or not is immaterial.

Let me answer it this way. If God exists and the world is as it is, then I do not care for God's existence. He may as well not exist, for all I care.

If it was up to me whether God existed or not, I would choose him to exist. For if he did, the world wouldn't be as it is.

Apologies to all women for using 'him' to denote God. Unfortunately, this is Christian custom.

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## joshil

Yeah....so what state is the world in? Why do you think that is so?

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## atiguhya padma

Did I say doing whatever we feel like is the purpose of non-religious life? Of course it isn't.

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## atiguhya padma

Well, for starters, if there is a designer of the Universe, he obviously enjoys the process of suffering, after all, he built it into the system. 

He also ensured that most life cannot continue without feeding off other life.

Basically, the Universe seems to have been constructed by a sadist. Who then gloats over people's suffering by expecting them to worship him! Now that's what I call sick!

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## joshil

So tell me....Where is Atheism when it hurts?
What are we suffering from?

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## atiguhya padma

Oh yeah, I forgot.

We live in the best possible world, don't we?

Everything's fine. The sun is shining and you can just smell the coffee!

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## joshil

YOu didnt answer my questions
So tell me....Where is Atheism when it hurts?
What are we suffering from?
It may seem 'obvious' but what is it?

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## atiguhya padma

What do you want? a list?

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## atiguhya padma

Atheism is an honest approach to life. When 'it hurts' atheism won't be there comforting you with false hopes. It won't be offering you comfort on the condition that you believe.

I once went to a memorial service for a railway disaster in my area. During the service, the vicar went on and on about how thse without Jesus in their lives suffered terribly from the loss of their loved ones, whilst those with Jesus in their lives were able to take comfort from him. Callous b*st*rd that he was! An atheist would not be saying such nonsense.

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## atiguhya padma

We are suffering from false promises, from hope of a never-becom ing future, from impossible expectations, from oneupmanship, from religious conditioning, from delusions, from lack of concern, from nature red in tooth and claw, from people playing on our consciences, from manipulation, from war, from abuse, from the idea of a loving God, from the way the world is, from you and me and everyone else.

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## Bittersweet

Impressive indeed  :Biggrin:  (I'm just being cynical) I was hoping to find something through those 4 pages...

I believe in one thing. One God that created the heaven and the earth. If every cell in your body is there to fullfill a purpose. dont you think that this huuuuuuge elegant universe has a universal purpose???

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## star blue

ninety-nine percent of this huge, elegant universe is a vacuum.

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## crisaor

Maybe that's were the elegancy is.  :Biggrin:

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## atiguhya padma

Bittersweet,

There is no purpose to a religious life, other than as a comfort blanket.

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## atiguhya padma

And Bittersweet, what might your proposed purpose be, other than some anthropocentric baloney.?

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## joshil

YOu know its funny sometimes how you guys want to reach out and make me smell the rose while cutting my nose in the process...We ought to talk with more respect for each other

How does a non relgious life explain
meaning-no meaning? apart from continuation which is eventually meaningless 
morality- what is evil? what is suffering? Evil to one man may be justice in the eyes of another?
destiny- What is the security of the atheist? You say i have a 'false comfort'...but tell me...what are you comforted by? the comfort of knowing theres no real comfort? Wheres the comfort in that?
origin- Sir....are you just DNA brought here by accident? Are you simply dancing to its music? Theres no love in DNA....its just a bunch of chemicals which ought to fight to survive....yet..yet we risk own lives at risk to save others

I think we make the fatal mistake of assessing the failed man instead of the Absolute God. God said that 'my kingdom is not of this world otherwise my disciples will fight' yet some men continue to fight.YOu know me as a christian am responsible for my actions. I am given the coat of Christ to represent him. Sometimes we dont do a good job. That doesnt mean God has failed. We have.

Sufffering sir is a tough question for anyone...but sir...how do even justify suffering if there is no God? Doesnt the question start to not make sense? What is good?

Sometimes itll take us much pain to come to God and realise him in our lives. 

Sir life is beautiful...yes there is pain....and yet somehow looking through the eyes of God...we see the grass greener. DO you?
Take comfort my friend...give God a chance

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## joshil

If we present man with a concept of man which is not true, we may well corrupt him. When we present him as an automaton of reflexes, as a mind machine, as a bundle of instincts, as a pawn of drive and reactions, as a mere product of heredity and environment, we feed the nihilism to which modern man is, in any case, prone. I became acquainted with the last stage of corruption in my second concentration camp, Auschwitz. The gas chambers of Auschwitz were the ultimate consequence of the theory that man is nothing but the product of heredity and environment - or, as the Nazis liked to say, "of blood and soil." I am absolutely convinced that the gas chambers of Auschwitz, Treblinka, and Maidanek were ultimately prepared not in some ministry or other in Berlin, but rather at the desks and in lecture halls of nihilistic scientists and philosophers.

- Viktor Frankl (holocaust survivor)

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## atiguhya padma

Joshil,

Are you for real????

You're not much better than Littlenani. Why don't you give Allah a chance?

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## joshil

Are you for real or being sarcastic on why i dont choose allah?

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## atiguhya padma

No I'm being for real. Please tell me. Why haven't you given Allah a chance?

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## joshil

If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents  the accidental by-product of the movements of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone elses. But if their thoughts  i.e., of materialism and astronomy  are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all other accidents. Its like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset.

- C.S. Lewis

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## atiguhya padma

This shows what a cr*p thinker CS Lewis is. 

<If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of man was an accident too.>

This doesn't follow at all. Lewis seems to be saying that if the Solar System is an accident, then everything in it, and everything that happens in it is an accident. This is not a reasonable argument.

Now let us assume that the Solar System wasn't an accident, but was purposefully designed. According to Lewis' argument, this would mean that everything in it and all that happens in it is purposefully designed too. We are purposefully designed and our thoughts are purposefully designed too. This leaves little room for freewill. Christianity without freewill is pointless.

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## joshil

LoL nice one man....but i think you making a little mistake

Freewill can exist hand in hand with purpose....It works in Christianity anyway

As chrstians we believe that man is made to worship....but does everyone worship? no sir...out of free will some choose not to

thus Gods purpose for our life is still there...and so is freewill....not pointless at all....a little misunderstanding thats all

hey dude...i wont be answering why iam not a muslim...rather ill be answering why im a christian...is that alright?...I think it will be more respectful for the muslims in this room?

ill do it tomorrow...its a little late right now in the land down under....

so tell me....where you from? how old are ya? Howd you become involved in this debaty things?

neway....cya later

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## atiguhya padma

With all due respect Joshil:

<Freewill can exist hand in hand with purpose....It works in Christianity anyway>

Do you call that an argument?

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## joshil

Purpose isnt a destiny....do you get what im saying....Gods purpose for our lives is a lifestyle...but he doesnt force that upon anyone...we have freewill to choose otherwise...just like you do?
Do you get what im saying now? We have the freewill to choose another purpose that God didnt give us
Am i being clear enough?

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## atiguhya padma

Joshil,

Come back to me when you have an argument that we can discuss, rather than merely an opinion.

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## joshil

im serious dude.....Gods purpose for us is to worship him...i think ive wrote that too many times.....BUT DO WE ALL WORSHIP? Do we all CHOOSE to worship?...i guess im not being clear about this one....sorry....can some other explain it better for me who understands more clearly what im saying?

Oh by the way....i think that an arguemnt can be an opinion in many ways

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## atiguhya padma

Would you care to give an example of the statement in your last line?

Joshil, did you not follow my argument regarding Lewis? or are you just ignoring it? Do you think my argument is false in some way? If it is, I would like to discuss that. Your one line statement about freewill working with purpose in Christianity is not factual, it is not reasoned, it is not logical, it is not an argued position, it is merely a bland statement of belief or opinion. Now I'm willing to discuss that belief with you provided you supply me with something to analyse and debate.

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## atiguhya padma

<As chrstians we believe that man is made to worship....>

I assume you mean the reason for man's existence is to worship God? 

Have you ever wondered why a hyper-intelligent being, with a mind infinitely more complex and infinitely more interesting than yours, would WANT YOU TO WORSHIP HIM??????????

I mean, how trivial is that? Why does God want you to worship him? Why does he want you to talk to him? I must say, if there is a God, I would feel so sorry for him. All you Christians must be such boring company for him. And to think that you even believe he has an interest in your personal lives!!! Unbelievable.... it would be like spending an eternity watching repeat performances of a dull soap opera.

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## Isagel

Sorry Joshil, I think you might misunderstand me. I lost my faith by studying the bible. But I´m going to have a look at the page you mentioned. I´m to curious not to.

Atiguhya padma- I´ve read most of your posts. I have come to appreciate your intelligence and wit, as you well now. I´m also an atheist, and I can relate to what you say. I think I share your view in many ways. But I do not like the tone you use when discussing with Christians. 
I do not think it helps the discussion along. 
I´m taking part in this discussion because I want to understand more about faith and the purpose of religious life. 

Because faith is such a strong thing that I have to take it into account evry time I do research. My collegues call it Placebo effect. You might call it the effect of hope, or faith or belief. You might call it a false blanket of comfort. But sometimes, for some people it works. Because faith and belief in the cure sometimes is as effective as the cure itself. 
And its a mystery to me because I am not capable of it. I can´t believe like that. 

You are right. We are suffering. I meet people everyday that suffers through things I can´t imagine. Because as you say  nature is red of tooth and claw. Because everyone we love will die. We will die. And some of us in pain. Some of these people find comfort in religion. They know that I am not religious. But, you know, that doesn´t matter. We can talk about what religion means to them anyway. For some it is a threat of damnation. For some it is a hope. For some it is a calm courage. I try and treat their views, hope and fears with as much respect as my nonreligious patients views on life and dying. 

I can´t ask them how they keep their faith. What they think the purpose is. But I can ask here. I can ask how people can keep their faith , and belief in an loving God under circumstances like that. 

I think that it´s possible to let them believe, while not lying and say that I do. I´m trying to learn and understand their perspective. I think it is possible to let everyone have the freedom to believe what they want while having a discussion and not letting go of my freedom to believe what I want. 

Atheists talks bull**** too.

(And I spell bad. Well, I think I edited most of it away )

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## star blue

when you think about all the ways in which you could die, burning would have to be one of the most agonizing----being cooked alive, like a few million jews. (this is why I don't respect the nazis.) to say to someone 'when you die you are going to burn in an oven for all eternity' is so f.ucking morally repugnant, common decency and respect lose all meaning.

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## atiguhya padma

Isagel,

I can appreciate your position. I can have some sympathy with your plight. And you are quite right, my tone is different when I talk to many Christians (and Muslims as well, in fact any monotheist, or elitist, or self-righteous religious or political position). I find the implicit assumption that devotees will reap eternal happiness and the rest will suffer eternally, extremely nauseous. I can make no apologies for my attitude with regard to this. 

I agree that the placebo effect can be beneficial. It can also be extremely harmful. Whether it is advantageous or not, it should be remembered that it is belief and faith that help us. When people speak of their religious beliefs or faith pulling them through, the important terms are 'faith' or 'belief', not 'religious'. 

Dishonest faith, that is faith in an untruth, is forever haunted by the negative effects of the placebo: once you learn the truth, the effect wears off. It is only the pragmatist that can believe in what he knows to be untrue, merely because it may be beneficial. I would say that this kind of belief underpins much of the world's economic and political problems. So, I am not a great fan of pragmatism. I would hate to see a society of placebo-effected people. This is what religion seems to represent.

I feel that your position, what you do, is extremely difficult. I have no idea what to say with regard to it. I suppose you have to let the people you deal with believe what they want. But in a different environment, different attitudes prevail. There is a big difference between giving people the freedom to believe what they want, and arguing against their beliefs. If there wasn't, then you would not be saying this, would you? You wouldn't be trying to convince me of this position.

Atheists, like all humans, can and do talk bullsh*t. They just tend not to firmly believe in bullsh*t. Or dedicate their lives to it.

Atiguhya Padma

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## fayefaye

Ati, I'm boring??!! ouch!  :Smile:   :Tongue:   :Biggrin: 

I think it depends on what you mean by religion. I'll admit organised religion can be a bit of bs sometimes, but religion on a personal level can be different. And whilst I agree with what you say about faith and belief, to have faith and belief, it must be IN something, You cannot have faith and belief in nothing. God is what people believe in. It is what their faith and belief is distilled in. Hence 'religion' has to play some sort of part in faith and beliefs.

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## atiguhya padma

Fayefaye,

Faith and belief are both processes. It is the process that is beneficial. Faith and belief can be in anything. Faith and belief in God may be stronger than some other faiths and beliefs, but that is only due to the tradition and heritage that has grown up around that faith and belief. There are many things we can have faith in and believe in. Maybe we need to keep pushing the boundaries of what we believe and why we believe it.

Atiguhya Padma

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## atiguhya padma

Fayefaye,

I'm sure you are not boring! You are everywhere, anywhere and nowhere. How interesting is that?

Which reminds me of the end of Apollinaire's poem The Marvels of War:

I bequeath to the future the story of Guillaume Apollinaire
Who was in the war and could be everywhere
In the happy villages behind the lines
In all the rest of the universe
In those who died tangled in the barbed wire
In women in cannon in horses
At the zenith and the nadir and the four cardinal points
And in the unique intensity of this eve of battle
And without doubt it would be more beautiful
If I could suppose that all the things everywhere in which I reside 
Could be also in me
But there is nothing so made in this respect
For if I am everywhere right now there is still only I who can be in 
me

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## Isagel

Thank you for a really interesting answer.
I sometimes wish I had a more clear philosophical standpoint in all this, and I´m working on it by discussing here. 

I think that this sums up a lot of what I believe in concerning religion and fraith:



> _Originally posted by atiguhya padma_ 
> *
> 
> Faith and belief are both processes. It is the process that is beneficial. Faith and belief can be in anything. Faith and belief in God may be stronger than some other faiths and beliefs, but that is only due to the tradition and heritage that has grown up around that faith and belief. There are many things we can have faith in and believe in. Maybe we need to keep pushing the boundaries of what we believe and why we believe it.
> *


I guess I can say I have a faith in humankind, in our ability to grow. And as you do, I think that there are practices or beliefs that stunts that growth. That makes us smaller. I think one of the hardest challenges for us is being able to stand up for what we think is right, while not forcing our views on others. To be able to both learn and teach. We can teach each other, as you are teaching me - changing part of what I think with your words. And during this discussing I´m growing, not getting smaller. Thank you.

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## bbq13

hmm... still hart to believe that there's a god... i do believe in the aboninable snowman though...

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## joshil

The new rebel is a skeptic and will not entirely trust anything [T]he fact that he doubts everything really gets in his way when he wants to denounce anything. For all denunciation applies a moral doctrine of some kind; and the modern revolutionist doubts not only the institution he denounces but the doctrine by which he denounces it [He] goes first to a political meeting, where he complains that savages are treated as if they were beasts; then he takes his hat and umbrella and goes on to a scientific meeting, where he proves that they practically are beasts. In short, the modern revolutionist, being an infinite skeptic, is always engaged in undermining his own mines. In his book on politics he attacks men for trampling on morality; in his book on ethics he attacks morality for trampling on men. By rebelling against everything he has lost the right to rebel against anything.

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## joshil

Of all of talk i can tell you atleast this

THE LAW OF NON CONTRADICTION

Truth is one....exclusive...not relative

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## atiguhya padma

Joshil,

All I can say is: beware the zealot police. They may come knocking on your post if you don't watch it!

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## Sitaram

Padma asked an interesting question in this thread regarding Biblical passages which have to do with freewill.

I have been writing about religions for several years at http://www.geocities.com/tulsidas_ramayan

Two passages come to mind regarding freewill

In the book of Esther, Mordecai, Esther's uncle, says to her "You have it WITHIN YOUR MEANS if you so choose to help your people, but IF you choose NOT to, then God will arrange for the help to come from elsewhere, but you shall not share in the reward." (paraphrased from memory)

From the New Testament, Jesus tells Peter "before the rooster crows twice, you shall deny me three times." Assume for a moment, for the sake of argument, that Jesus IS the preeternal God, outside of time, who foreknows the outcome of all of our free will choices before we ever make them,and yet that foreknowledge in no way robs us of our freedom at that moment in time when we choose. Then, Jesus SEES the future moment when Peter makes his free will choice to deny. Now (and here comes the interesting point), IF telling Peter what his future free will choice will be in any way changes Peter's future action, THEN Peter would be robbed of the freedom of his will. But, we see that, when the moment comes, and the rooster crows, Peters memory is clouded (in order to protect his free will), and he makes his choice just as it was foreseen from God's pre-eternal vantage point, and only AFTER Peter has exercised his freedom does he suddenly remember what Jesus foresaw.

visit my book site , a work in progress at http://toosmallforsupernova.org

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## Yogi

Animals do not have any purpose, they live a predetermined life. They eat what they are used to and live the same life for ever and ever. 

Humans have always exhibited a strong desire to be different. we want to understand self and the world around. Both expands forever. This urge to master oneself and the world around became a preoccuption for some and the purpose for others. 

However this search has always eluded most humans. We invariably miss the point in trying to understand the world without understanding the self within. Then, we try to understand the self through the mind which is limited and conditioned. 

Only those who succeed in unraveling the glory of the self, understands the real meaning and the purpose of life.

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## XXdarkclarityXX

In my opinon, a Christian life (or any religious life for that matter) has two main purposes: to provide a means for self-gratification and to prolong a religion (whichever one it may be) that they believe is actually "the Truth". Let me explain those purposes. First of all, I believe that those who live a moral live and live out the ideals of their religion automatically place themselves upon higher standards than the rest of the population. "I'm Catholic, so the rest of you are going to hell" or "I am one of God's chosen people" are the types of responses that are uttered from religious people. They have no way of proving they are following the right religion (probably because there isn't one, but that's for another time) yet they assume that all who don't are automatically screwed. Also, we've all experienced "feeling good inside" for doing something selfless for somebody else. That feeling is lauded by religious people and it stems from self-gratification. They ask themselves, "What can I do to make myself feel better so that it both looks good for me and makes another person better?" Well, they perform a selfless act. My second reason comes from the natural inclination of a member of a community of faith to spread such faith to others. If you are in a club or group, do you not want your numbers to grow so that the group or club will survive when you are gone? That is the attitude a religious person takes- "If I follow this, then I can believe in it and make it last longer as well." One more note that I think should be added is the tendency for people living a religious life to use rather distasteful tactics to perform their objectives, while doing so under the pretense that it is "god's will". Catholic parishes are known for denying parishioner status to those who do not pay the minimum monthly amount, and do so with the reasoning that "God requires you to be charitable". How is it that this can occur? If the Church is such a proponent of charity, why doesn't it use the billions of dollars contained in Vatican riches and fund the Church with that? Also, why aren't priests obligated to take a vow of poverty? Do they really expect Christians to be charitable when their leaders are not? Many priests that I have seen drive better cars than their parishioners. In my opinion, the first rule of leadership is to take care of your people, which hasn't been happening.

Ok, now to simplify my answer to the actual question. I believe a religious or Christian life is equivilant to a life long drug addiction because you're content with something that makes you happy and yet it has no basis in reality and cannot be proven. I would go so far as to say that in some respects living a religious life is a waste of time. However, this is not to say living a MORAL life is a waste of time. An atheist can be just as much of a good person as any religious person can. Religion is not a prerequisite for morals. 

If I have offended anyone by any of my comments in this post, I apologize. I really am attempting to adress the beliefs and not the person. However, I also believe that attempting to do so is nearly impossible since in many cases attacking the belief offends the person who believes in them. In that case, attacking the belief and attacking the person are the same thing. So I could understand if someone got angry because of what I have written. In any case, I look forward to responses and a good debate.

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## Ancestor

I was not offended for I realize that your comments are not directed at a person but to the topic question. However as a person of faith I do not feel it as you put it  


> "a addiction for happinessis equivilant to a life long drug addiction"


 for that is not how feel. Let me explain try to explain better and hopefully more clearer. My faith is not one that people recognize as a true faith of the world. Which is perfectly fine with me because it is my faith not theirs. I am a Spiritualist and although there are Spiritualist Churchs I however do not attend a church. I practice my faith in my own way and I follow my beliefs. I do not believe in the Bible a 100% nor do I feel that you should believe in the Bible in order to be a person of faith. I believe that no should shove their own beliefs down someone's throat who does not wish to believe the same as you. I do not believe every single person should have a faith in a higher being and that was not for anyone in particular. I feel if you are truely happy with the person you are right now and then that is the only thing that matters. We humans have enough to deal with in this world and each day that I awake is a good day whether I am happy or not that day. Life to me is a precious gift that I do not want to throw away lightly and I for one am grateful to be alive. I am a happier person having my faith but it is more then just believing in a higher being or even being a moral one. For me my faith helps complete's me and if that makes me weak then you are free to believe that. My faith makes me feel like a whole person whom is strong enough to deal with the problems life has thrown to me. Without my faith I did not feel whole and yes I was happy without it but now I am more complete. My faith helps me with my gift and it comforts me when I say a prayer for someone. I pray for healing of the sick and for death when it their time. Ying and Yang of life is a balance of life which my faith also does for me. Balance for me is important and may not be for you but that how it should be. We are all different as you well know but I for one would like it that way makes the world more interesting. Hope that you were not offended by what I had to say and if so I do apologize

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## The Unnamable

> I believe a religious or Christian life is equivilant to a life long drug addiction because you're content with something that makes you happy and yet it has no basis in reality and cannot be proven. I would go so far as to say that in some respects living a religious life is a waste of time.






> If I have offended anyone by any of my comments in this post, I apologize.


*XxdarkclarityXX*, you are priceless. How could anyone be offended by having his or her religion compared to a drug addiction? But then again, Karl Marx said, Religion is the opiate of the masses. Also, there is Moses the Raven in _Animal Farm_, with his promises of Sugarcandy Mountain.

You won't be thanked (except by me) for taking the view that feelings are subordinate to truth.

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## XXdarkclarityXX

You have just as much freedom to express your opinion as anyone else here does and I welcome your views. However, what disappoints me is that it seem like you are using religion as a crutch. Do you really need a set of beliefs contained in a religion to stand on your own two feet? 

Your reasoning for having religion in your life intrigues me in that it is strikingly similar to reasoning used by a drug or alcohol addict- "I need it and can't live without it because it fills a hole inside of me." I supposed one could then draw the conclusion that drugs do to the body what religion does to the mind: it creates a dependency that only grows stronger with more exposure.

I believe that religion breeds intellectually weak individuals because of its ability to persuade certainty with uncertainty. How is it that religious individuals are so certain of something they cannot prove and know nothing about? I also believe that religious individuals find themselves above rules that exist in every other genre of human knowledge. Why is it that in math, science, and history things must be 99% proven before they will even be considered as truth, and yet religious individuals are quick to whole-heartedly believe in some spiritual force or being? An equally perplexing question is this: How can someone who is religious defend a stance using the same "evidence" (if that is what you want to call it) that convinced them? 

The questions I raise bring me to my final point: Religion feeds off of hopes and fears, and that is why people are attracted to it and in some cases dependent upon it. Religious people are religious because: 1) They need encouragement because they are afraid of death. 2) They don't have anything solid in their life so they turn to religion (rather confusing, since religion is unsolidified itself). 3) They need something to make themselves feel whole or complete. I'd like to add that we all start off whole and complete and the reason this state of being vacates us has more to do with changing something concrete in our lives than changing our beliefs.

The Unnamable- I am merely stating my beliefs, nothing more. While I do wish for the preservation of self-esteem in doing so, right is right and wrong is wrong. It's that simple. The enormous gray area which may or may not exist in between those two polar opposites has no validity because at the end of the day one must choose their stance: yes or no, right or wrong, left or right. We live in a dualistic world, where being in a gray area is the equivilant to indifference and it is that indifference which is the bane of all human progress.

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## emily655321

Once again, it's me to the unsoughtnot to mention dubiousdefense of the Catholic reputation.


> Catholic parishes are known for denying parishioner status to those who do not pay the minimum monthly amount, and do so with the reasoning that "God requires you to be charitable".


I'm not sure where you heard this, but there is no monthly fee in Catholic churches. What else can I say? Sorry, but it's false.


> Also, why aren't priests obligated to take a vow of poverty?


 They are.


> Many priests that I have seen drive better cars than their parishioners.


Any money that a priest uses officially belongs to the diocese. They are allowed money for things that they need (car, food, clothing), but no member of the clergy makes a personal income.

*EDIT:* Sorry, my mistake on the money bit. Diocesan priests do make a small income (typically about $15,000 a year). It's priests in _orders_ that take a vow of poverty. There's two different types of parishes in Catholicism, and I was raised in the latter, so I didn't know.

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## Whifflingpin

"Why is it that in math, science, and history things must be 99% proven before they will even be considered as truth, and yet religious individuals are quick to whole-heartedly believe in some spiritual force or being?"

Presumably you know less about maths, science and history than you think. In maths and science things are accepted because they are functional, and in history they are accepted on the basis of reasonable probability.

In case that sounds ridiculous, I will give some examples. 
No topic in maths has given itself over to rigorous proof as much as geometry as proposed by Euclid, accepted for centuries as universal truth. However, there is a whole field of non-Euclidean geometry in which the "proofs" of Euclid do not hold good. We live our lives as if they hold good because it works.
The opposite situation also occurs. By definition, the square root of a negative number cannot exist, because either a positive or a negative number multiplied by itself must produce a positive number. However, mathematicians ask "What would happen if there were such a thing as the square root of a negative number?" The resulting mathematics is the basis of virtually the whole of electronics. It is an absurdity based on an impossibility, but it works.
A few years ago, that great man Stephen Hawking "proved" conclusively and for all time that the universe had to have started in a particular way, and was totally fixed in its development. Last year, being a truly great man, he said "Sorry chaps, I got it wrong." 

There is a vast amount of human experience that cannot be measured like the rate of a falling body or the distance between two points. Religions are the attempt to observe this non-physical aspect of existence and make sense of it. Everything from "why should I behave justly" to "what happens when I die." People adhere to religions because the religions explain the very real but unseen things, and offer guidance in how to deal with them. The valid bases for accepting a religion are the same as the bases for accepting a scientific theory - it accounts for the phenomena in question, and offers a method of dealing with the phenomena.

The reason so many people are ready to believe in some spiritual force or being is that a spiritual aspect of life is within the experience of so many people. The atheists have been, in some threads recently, at pains to explain that justice, love, thought, fear etc are merely chemical and physical reactions, but that is simply not how people experience them. Reason itself, that you consider so important, is just one aspect of this. On what basis do you judge something to be reasonable? - where does your standard of "reason" come from, such that you should expect everyone else to be able to recognise the same, or at least a similar, standard. The only functioning hypothesis is that there is somehow a standard that is "outside" of any individual, or else no conversation could ever take place. 

Of course, it is a massive problem, undermining the whole credibility of religious thought, that powerful and cynical people exploit belief systems, as Marx says, to stupefy the masses. 

An equal problem is that so many believers think they have the only truth, rather than a current working hypothesis. This closing of the mind to other possibilities, of course, can apply to adherents of any belief system. There are closed minded religious, closed minded atheists, and the whole history of science is littered with examples of brilliant men wasting their efforts in battling to overcome the closed minds of their colleagues.

.

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## XXdarkclarityXX

> I'm not sure where you heard this, but there is no monthly fee in Catholic churches. What else can I say? Sorry, but it's false.


To be a parishioner, yes, there is a fee. 

Diocesan priests are NOT obligated to take a vow of poverty, and yes, priestly orders take a vow. 




> Any money that a priest uses officially belongs to the diocese. They are allowed money for things that they need (car, food, clothing), but no member of the clergy makes a personal income.


Whether it's a personal income or not, they still use the money for themselves so the posessions from the income are theirs.

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## rachel

I am a parishoner and there is not and never will be a fee. 
I am a devout Messianic Jew not because it fills some hole in me, I often can be found like Moses out in the 'dessert' arguing with God, being angry with Him, being a nag and worse. 
I thru painful study and searching and more searching believe there is a Supreme Intelligent Being and I call Him God. I believe He deserves honor and praise simply because He made all of this and me too so I could live and breathe and get to know Him and as much as I can that he made.
That to me is basic. But I go a step further because I desire a personal relationship with him like I do my family. I cannot and will not love someone I have not taken the time to get to know. As my knowledge and experiences with that one grow so too I either grow to love him or her more or I would have walked away from them..and Him That simple.
having come to know Him he has asked a lot of hard things from me and only because I have learned to trust Him did I say yes. Having said yes I did not look back because I believe in covenant and to me it is forever. That is why I don't date and don't believe in just living with and sleeping with someone out of covenant.
But the road is hard, frought with disappointment and hurt, pain and rejection so I surely don't do it to feel secure or 'happy'. I believe those things are neither here nor there.
I look around and see people 'worship' rock stars, politicians, gurus of all sorts and that's just fine. but tell someone you bow down to God and they smirk and groan and roll their eyes. Who cares. I look at the cross and all that the universe as I know it holds and figure it is really rather rude to not at least respect God and honor Him just because ....He IS.
I truly believe the scripture, and believe me I used to fit into this for a long time..the scripture that says "the fool says in his heart, there is no God."

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## XXdarkclarityXX

Rachel,

In my opinion, the fool is the one who believes in unsubstantiated things.




> I am a parishoner and there is not and never will be a fee.


You say that, and then...


> I am a devout Messianic Jew


It's got to be one or the other. Synagogues don't have parishioners, and a parishioner can't be Jewish.

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## Whifflingpin

"It's got to be one or the other"
As Rachel has already explained, her background is Jewish, but she is now (also?) a Christian, because she believes that Jesus is the Messiah - hence Messianic Jew, a Jew who believes that the Messiah has come. 



"I believe that religion breeds intellectually weak individuals"
Like of course, Newton who laid the foundations of modern physics (and wrote a book on Hell) and Einstein who laid the foundation of physics beyond Newton (and refused to accept that God plays dice with the Universe.)

.

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## XXdarkclarityXX

Wifflingpin-

That's a rather odd combination of beliefs... ones that I have never heard combined together before.

When I said religion breeds intelectually week individuals, I meant the general population. Newton and Einstein would obviously be exceptions to that statement.

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## Whifflingpin

"That's a rather odd combination of beliefs... ones that I have never heard combined together before."

Not so very odd, if you think about it.

Jesus was a Jew. The Jews (many of them at least) believed that a Messiah would come. The Christian church was founded by Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah.

Many Jews still believe that a Messiah will come, and some, like the first Christians, become convinced that the things they are expecting from a Messiah are actually to be found in Jesus.

.

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## Ancestor

> You have just as much freedom to express your opinion as anyone else here does and I welcome your views. However, what disappoints me is that it seem like you are using religion as a crutch. Do you really need a set of beliefs contained in a religion to stand on your own two feet? 
> 
> Your reasoning for having religion in your life intrigues me in that it is strikingly similar to reasoning used by a drug or alcohol addict- "I need it and can't live without it because it fills a hole inside of me." I supposed one could then draw the conclusion that drugs do to the body what religion does to the mind: it creates a dependency that only grows stronger with more exposure.
> 
> I believe that religion breeds intellectually weak individuals because of its ability to persuade certainty with uncertainty. How is it that religious individuals are so certain of something they cannot prove and know nothing about? I also believe that religious individuals find themselves above rules that exist in every other genre of human knowledge. Why is it that in math, science, and history things must be 99% proven before they will even be considered as truth, and yet religious individuals are quick to whole-heartedly believe in some spiritual force or being? An equally perplexing question is this: How can someone who is religious defend a stance using the same "evidence" (if that is what you want to call it) that convinced them? 
> 
> The questions I raise bring me to my final point: Religion feeds off of hopes and fears, and that is why people are attracted to it and in some cases dependent upon it. Religious people are religious because: 1) They need encouragement because they are afraid of death. 2) They don't have anything solid in their life so they turn to religion (rather confusing, since religion is unsolidified itself). 3) They need something to make themselves feel whole or complete. I'd like to add that we all start off whole and complete and the reason this state of being vacates us has more to do with changing something concrete in our lives than changing our beliefs.
> 
> The Unnamable- I am merely stating my beliefs, nothing more. While I do wish for the preservation of self-esteem in doing so, right is right and wrong is wrong. It's that simple. The enormous gray area which may or may not exist in between those two polar opposites has no validity because at the end of the day one must choose their stance: yes or no, right or wrong, left or right. We live in a dualistic world, where being in a gray area is the equivilant to indifference and it is that indifference which is the bane of all human progress.


 
As a woman of faith I am not intellectually weak in fact I am quite intellectant but I know that was not meant towards me personally. What you have state has no science to back up your statements. Do you have any science to prove you are correct in your way of thinking? Because if you do in the end it too is merely a theory that may or may not be true. My faith as I state a few posts back that my faith makes me stronger. Your statement puts everyone into one category which for me seems a bit impossible since we are all unique individuals. My faith is not a crutch nor is lack of faith a crutch. Nor is everything as simple as we think it is because life always throws a curve ball. My life has seen what a man can do to a child's body against the child's will. Yet that did not weaken the child but made her cold for a long time. Faith opened up her heart to allow her to stand on her two feet with pride. Nothing wrong in that and I am proud of whom I am today. You have a right to believe your way but why cannot you allow the same for those whom do without calling them weak. You do not know them nor I you and if I misunderstood your words forgive me.

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## rachel

> Rachel,
> 
> In my opinion, the fool is the one who believes in unsubstantiated things.
> 
> 
> 
> You say that, and then... 
> 
> It's got to be one or the other. Synagogues don't have parishioners, and a parishioner can't be Jewish.


with all due respect I am in fact and my family are Jews who have accepted Jesus the Christ as Messiah since doing our research along with prayer.
We were confirmed in the Catholic church four years ago by Fathers Martin Peyton and Cedo Domingo in the Holy Catholic rite, given our first communion and we are indeed parishioners.
I never penned the phrase "the fool believes in his hear there is no God." That is part of the Holy canon. I simply said I believe those words.
But I thank you that you took the time to read what I wrote.

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## rachel

> As a woman of faith I am not intellectually weak in fact I am quite intellectant but I know that was not meant towards me personally. What you have state has no science to back up your statements. Do you have any science to prove you are correct in your way of thinking? Because if you do in the end it too is merely a theory that may or may not be true. My faith as I state a few posts back that my faith makes me stronger. Your statement puts everyone into one category which for me seems a bit impossible since we are all unique individuals. My faith is not a crutch nor is lack of faith a crutch. Nor is everything as simple as we think it is because life always throws a curve ball. My life has seen what a man can do to a child's body against the child's will. Yet that did not weaken the child but made her cold for a long time. Faith opened up her heart to allow her to stand on her two feet with pride. Nothing wrong in that and I am proud of whom I am today. You have a right to believe your way but why cannot you allow the same for those whom do without calling them weak. You do know them nor I you and if I misunderstood your words forgive me.


I have always been struck by your strength and the clear way you have of expressing yourself. Besides Mono you were probably the first person whose posts gave me the impression of a truly rounded and healthy minded individual. You are also compassionate and very ready it seems to listen to the other person and give them the credit that they have a heart and a brain and can use them as well as you. You are an inspiration Ancestor.  :Thumbs Up:

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## Ancestor

> I have always been struck by your strength and the clear way you have of expressing yourself. Besides Mono you were probably the first person whose posts gave me the impression of a truly rounded and healthy minded individual. You are also compassionate and very ready it seems to listen to the other person and give them the credit that they have a heart and a brain and can use them as well as you. You are an inspiration Ancestor.


Thank you Rachel, I appreciated your kinds words and people like you are also an inspiration to all of us.  :Smile:

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## rachel

> "That's a rather odd combination of beliefs... ones that I have never heard combined together before."
> 
> Not so very odd, if you think about it.
> 
> Jesus was a Jew. The Jews (many of them at least) believed that a Messiah would come. The Christian church was founded by Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah.
> 
> Many Jews still believe that a Messiah will come, and some, like the first Christians, become convinced that the things they are expecting from a Messiah are actually to be found in Jesus.
> 
> .



thank you so much for explaining in a clear concise way what I obviously failed to do. You have such clarity with your words. I get muddled at times, head injury and if I am tired it does show.

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## atiguhya padma

I assume that when XXdarkclarityXX said <religion breeds intelectually week individuals> XXdarkclarityXX meant that religion discourages an intellectually critical view of things. Intelligent people can obviously be religious. But such people often, if not always, fail to apply intellectually critical analysis to their beliefs. Einstein was mentioned as a religious person, and his statement God does not play dice was given to support this. That statement was originally in fact a defence of the reductionism of a deterministic Universe, rather than a religious statement. Einstein's God would be very different to the God put forward by most Christians. As for Newton, he was also writing about alchemy, which he considered to be the most important of his writings. Which just goes to show that Newton was not immune to the fads and fallacies of his time. Intelligence does not exclude foolishness or stupidity. But often it appears that intelligent Christians fail to apply their intelligence to their religious faith. I have never heard an intelligent argument for miracles, or physical resurrection, or heaven, or God, or Satan, or Adam and Eve or any of the huge amount of senseless baggage that goes with accepting the Christian faith. In fact, it seems to me, that whilst there are many scientists who believe in Christianity, I have never heard of any that have come to that belief through the kind of evidence and experimentation that they might require to believe in a physical theory.

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## emily655321

Einstein also said this: "In order to be an immaculate member of a flock of sheep, one must above all be a sheep oneself."

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## XXdarkclarityXX

> I assume that when XXdarkclarityXX said <religion breeds intelectually week individuals> XXdarkclarityXX meant that religion discourages an intellectually critical view of things. Intelligent people can obviously be religious. But such people often, if not always, fail to apply intellectually critical analysis to their beliefs. Einstein was mentioned as a religious person, and his statement God does not play dice was given to support this. That statement was originally in fact a defence of the reductionism of a deterministic Universe, rather than a religious statement. Einstein's God would be very different to the God put forward by most Christians. As for Newton, he was also writing about alchemy, which he considered to be the most important of his writings. Which just goes to show that Newton was not immune to the fads and fallacies of his time. Intelligence does not exclude foolishness or stupidity. But often it appears that intelligent Christians fail to apply their intelligence to their religious faith. I have never heard an intelligent argument for miracles, or physical resurrection, or heaven, or God, or Satan, or Adam and Eve or any of the huge amount of senseless baggage that goes with accepting the Christian faith. In fact, it seems to me, that whilst there are many scientists who believe in Christianity, I have never heard of any that have come to that belief through the kind of evidence and experimentation that they might require to believe in a physical theory.


That's exactly what I meant. Thank you for elucidating that for the other members here.

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## Xamonas Chegwe

Newton was also a disbeliever in the trinity, considering that christianity had been led astray in the 4th century's council of Nicaea - a fact which he concealed as it would have cost him his tenure and thus his ability to pursue his experiments. He also had extremely puritanical views on women, bordering on misogyny from what I hear. 

In later life, he was elected to parliament in England and made a single speech - he asked for a window to be closed because it was draughty!

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## Ancestor

> I assume that when XXdarkclarityXX said <religion breeds intelectually week individuals> XXdarkclarityXX meant that religion discourages an intellectually critical view of things. Intelligent people can obviously be religious. But such people often, if not always, fail to apply intellectually critical analysis to their beliefs.



Okay, now that I understand better and owe XXdarkclarityXX a apology I would like to make a comment on this statement. First I am sorry XXdarkclarityXX.

Although I feel that statement is not accurate because most people that I have religious discussions have always talked about how many different faiths they looked into before finding the faith they have now. I do not feel most people are blinded about beliefs and do take the time analyze different religions. We cannot presume anything here though and I base my opinion on those whom I have talked with. Belief is serious to me and I am always looking around to see if perhaps there is something that I am missing. That is me and I hope it does not sound as if I am speaking for another because I cannot do so. Forgive me though if I appear to be. Although I thank you both for another way of looking at beliefs. Knowledge helps to expand the mind and I am all for that.

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## XXdarkclarityXX

I believe I owe the members of this forum an apology for my displayed level of belligerent intolerance. Ancestor if you could possibly put up the PM I sent to you regarding my views, it would do a lot to explain to the members why I acted the way I did...thank you.

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## Ancestor

Sure not a problem.  :Smile:  You are welcome.




> I don't know where the hell I am anymore so I've clung to one belief that seems to make the most sense and have communicated nothing but hostility and belligerence to those who do not share my beliefs. I see myself as an army of one, not to quote the US Army's motto. Why? Religion itself just DOESNT make sense to me. It seems like a load of BS, especially Catholicism. Am I delusioned? I would say yes, but I have become that way through a process of elimination in which I have come to the conclusion that it is the way I must act. 
> 
> Atheism makes sense, of course, until something comes and "throws a wrench" in the whole equation. This type of thing happened to me last night- For some reason completely unknown to me, I had the sudden STRONG urge to watch EWTN (the church channel) and they had a commentary on with the host of a show and a theologian who was explaining the biblical roots of the Mass. I then got a sudden STRONG urge to grab my bible and read along with the passages they were examining in the show...so I watched that for an hour and went to bed. 
> 
> I've also had periodic STRONG urges to go to a vocations website and look up the path to becoming a Catholic priest. I want a family someday, so why the hell was I doing this? I still can't figure that out, and I still catch myself doing it every once and a while. 
> 
> I really don't know what to think anymore because of those kinds of events that are happening to me. The problem is that none of it makes sense...Why would I watch the Chruch channel (which usually bores the hell out of me), read the bible (again, bores me) and pay attention to the show for a whole hour? Atheism makes sense, and that's why I feel compelled to guard it with my life. I keep wondering why those things have happened though...it's like a splinter in my mind that won't come out. That's probably what's pissing me off, and why I show such a level of hostility as I have in past posts.

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## Yogi

Reality can be experienced only with the eye of understanding, not just by a scholar. What the moon is like must be seen with ones own eyes. How can others do it for us

In the same way, speech alone, even a deluge of words, with scholarship and skill in commenting on the scriptures, may achieve some personal satisfaction but not liberation.

In a labyrinth of words the mind is lost like a man in a thick forest, therefore with great efforts one must learn the truth about oneself from him who knows the truth.

Therefore the Purpose of a Religious Life is liberation; to become one with reality

With love

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## emily655321

Tim (XXdarkclarityXX), thank you for the apology. You seem to be an earnest young man of deep thought and feeling. Your honesty is very much appreciated.  :Smile: 

It sounds to me that you are sincerely searching for something to believe in, and for many, especially those who have clung vehemently to the "cause" of atheistic belief and yet found themselves unhappy, the next step is a long and dizzying one into religious fundamentalism. If you will accept my humble advice, I think it would be good for your health to take a deep breath and let go of the idea that you must hold fast to one belief or another; I can practically imagine your knuckles turning white.  :Smile:  Sometimes it is good to hold no belief at all for a time, and let your mind be clean and peaceful, so that you will be honestly receptive to whatever may float your way. And, if I may make one more recommendation, I think, with your intelligence and thoughtful nature, you might enjoy reading the works of some of the Eastern philosophers. The Tao Te Ching, in particular (written by Lao-Tzu), I have found in the past to be very inspirational. Whether you continue your religious search into more deist beliefs or not, it can be comforting to bridge the gap by first finding wisdom in more secular philosophy. A spiritual quest should allow you to pause at any point along the path, not make you feel forced to jump from one rung to the next, as though you were on monkeybars or something.

I hope my comments aren't too presumptuous. Have a good one.  :Biggrin:

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## atiguhya padma

> Reality can be experienced only with the eye of understanding, not just by a scholar. What the moon is like must be seen with ones own eyes. How can others do it for us
> 
> In the same way, speech alone, even a deluge of words, with scholarship and skill in commenting on the scriptures, may achieve some personal satisfaction but not liberation.
> 
> In a labyrinth of words the mind is lost like a man in a thick forest, therefore with great efforts one must learn the truth about oneself from him who knows the truth.
> 
> Therefore the Purpose of a Religious Life is liberation; to become one with reality
> 
> With love


Firstly, what exactly do you mean by experiencing reality? Do you mean reality is perceived by the eye of understanding? Or do you mean that the eye of understanding somehow takes you there, wherever reality is? As far as I am aware, not only is reality unavailable to our understanding in a direct sense, but also, the 'eye of understanding', as you call it, is itself only a kind of experience or way of perception, not a direct experience of reality itself.

The problem I've always found with those who proclaim to know the truth, is that you can never tell whether they are just plain lying or suffering from self-deception. Never trust anyone who tells you they know the truth. Remember, the Delphic oracle hailed Socrates, the man who claimed to know nothing other than his own ignorance, as the wisest of men. 

You say speech, words, scholarship and skillful commentary do not liberate. That all depends on your burden and your captivity. I say that those who claim some truth through obscurity cannot hope to ever liberate. If you fully understand some truth, then its communication will be as easy for you and your audience as breathing. If it is not, then look and think again. But if nothing else, at least think.

The purpose of a religious life is to keep you going. The social aspects of religion and its ultimate promise, provide psychological comfort and drive. And then of course, there are neurological reasons why people have a tendency to believe. 

As for liberation: unity with nature is not liberation, it is capture, entrapment, imprisonment. It is only liberation if you think entering a black hole is liberation. It is destruction of individuality. Diversity is what we should be aiming for. 

Furthermore, reality or nature is itself not a concept of unity. There is nothing unified about it. 

And reality or nature are merely concepts, which in the absence of accurate words and thoughts, may appear to be true.

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## Ancestor

Purpose of a religious life has a differnent meaning for each of whom live a religious life. Most people whom I have come across in my life have had mixed opinions on my faith. Some have stated beyond a doubt that their faith was the true faith without a doubt. Yet, my heart told me that it was not true for myself and I did not just listen to their words but pondered them as well. I see many here trying to find proof of their own beliefs and that makes me wonder if we truly can. In our hearts we may know it to be true but to prove it with science seems impossible to me. When we believe in something or someone we make it true within our own hearts. Not saying that makes it a false truth because I truly cannot say that. A line exists between truth and lie as well as good or bad. We at any moment in time can cross any line we choose. My way of thinking is if my faith is not a true path then my death shall enlighten me. Whether a higher being is awaiting me or not my death will shed light upon me. I may be slightly afraid to die but it not death persay but going into nothingness scares me the most. I believe the spirit goes on but as I am still in my physical being those physical fears are there. I do not stop seeking truth even though I know that the truth my not lie here upon the physical plane. It is human nature to try to find the truth before death comes knocking at one's door. We are all here seeking some kind of truth and to stand by our beliefs no matter what there are. I feel that there is nothing wrong with being Atheist and they are as fascinating as the rest of us. Truth, reality, and life are what we define it to be. You define yourselves with each word, movement, or without saying a word. I may have been off topic and if so forgive me Moderators. I have said I would not do that but sometimes I do it accidentally. After all I am only human too.  :Wink:

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## Yogi

To see a world in a Grain of Sand,
And heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour

William Blake

Does it mean anything. May be or may be not but makes perfect sence for those who have the eye of understanding. How to get the eye of understanding and experiencing the reality is next.

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## Yogi

Human reason has this peculiar fate that in one species of its knowledge it is burden by questions which, as prescribed by the very nature of reason itself, it is not able to ignore, but which, transcending all its powers, it is also not able to answer.

Immanuel Kant The Critique of Pure Reason

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## Yogi

Wisdom is discrimination between the truth and ignorance. The wise not only know what ignorance is but master and transcend the ignorance to become the truth themselves.

The direct experience of reality is as simple as breathing for those who desire to have it. When the cup is full even a drop becomes too much and it overflows.

Whether it is through politics, therapy or religion, there are those people who are looking for a greater meaning to their lives. For these people, the life of material pleasures is not enough.

It is a genuine concern that it is becoming increasingly difficult to say who knows the truth and who is lying or suffering from self-deception. 

That same journey can also be dangerous. We have all heard of the damaging effects wrought by drugs. Many psychic, spiritual, New Age and superconscious groups are like drugs. They entice and entrap the seekers. They are insidious - their dangers are not apparent until it is too late. 

"At the very outset we have to understand that we cannot create truth, we cannot organize truth. Truth is, was and will be. 

We cannot cheat truth. We have to reach that point to receive it. It is not a mental achievement. It is not a concept, we cannot change it. 

True Yoga establishes the proof of truth and enables you to experience it. Where the seekers of truth are misled, the results have been disastrous." 

Everything that is transient is not necessarily Divine. Not all powers contribute to a righteous path. Visions, voices, astral projections, auras, levitation, predictions, communications with the dead and other similar feats are dangerous. They are all possible, but they do not lead to Truth. They empower us temporarily. They make our ego believe that we are special. But all these powers soon sour, cause illness, distress and depression. 

They are detours that confuse, if not destroy our true seeking.

When choosing a guru or seeking groups, ask the following questions:

1.Is money taken at any time? (the truth cannot be owned, nor can it be bought or sold). 

2.Do your teachers pressure you like salesmen? (you should know the value of their path by your own conviction, not by the number of books you read, classes you attend, or pledges you make. Truth is not dependent upon salesmenship). 

3.Can you, yourself, feel the effect of the technique? (do not be satisfied that you will be in an "inner circle" at some time in the distant future). 

4.Do they clothe you in unusual dress, seat you in strange postures or submit you to wild chanting ? (the truth is not something that has to be attained through strenuous efforts. It is the strength of your desire that counts, not the harshness of their tests). 

5.Is the new path you've chosen dharmic ? (that is, is this a the path of the center, similar to that followed by the great men and women of the past, or will it lead to frightening experiences of a subconscious or super-conscious nature ?) 

6.Are the members of the organization, especially the leader, founder, or people you can trust? (are you comfortable with them? Do they display love and joy? Is their warmth genuine? Is the value of what they are teaching evident in their eyes ?) 

7.Do you have the freedom of choice to leave or continue? (follow your heart, not your ego. If you have fears or misgivings, give them heed. If you are in doubt or under duress, leave. Do not be bullied.) 

YOU CAN BE YOUR OWN MASTER. 
Any worthwhile view of the Divine realizes that God resides within each of us. He is there to be awakened as we become a part of the Greater Self.

Thanks for your views

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## Whifflingpin

> When choosing a guru or seeking groups, ask the following questions:
> 
> 1.Is money taken at any time? (the truth cannot be owned, nor can it be bought or sold). 
> 
> 2.Do your teachers pressure you like salesmen? (you should know the value of their path by your own conviction, not by the number of books you read, classes you attend, or pledges you make. Truth is not dependent upon salesmanship). 
> 
> 3.Can you, yourself, feel the effect of the technique? (do not be satisfied that you will be in an "inner circle" at some time in the distant future). 
> 
> 4.Do they clothe you in unusual dress, seat you in strange postures or submit you to wild chanting ? (the truth is not something that has to be attained through strenuous efforts. It is the strength of your desire that counts, not the harshness of their tests). 
> ...


Well done, Yogi.

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## Jewels83

There are two ways in which you can interpret the word "religious"; either you associate it to the extent at which one follows "religious" practices and rituals, or you define "religious" according to the the strength and sincerity of one's faith and beleif in his "religion". 
The purpose of a religious life in the first case can then be seeking social acceptance and respect which indirectly leads to access to power and authority. However, attending mass everyday, praying 5 times a day and fasting could-in other cases- serve as reminders; things that commit people to God no matter how preoccupied or busy the people are.

In the second case, i think in absolute terms, the purpose of a "religious life" is to establish a continous, lasting "relationship" with God, from here one could never forget God, attending church and praying becomes an inner desire instead of a duty. From here what God asks of you (doing what's right or good) is not compulsory but something that we struggle to acheive because its out of love to God.
and mmm???well i guess that's about it!!

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## atiguhya padma

Yogi said:

<Therefore the Purpose of a Religious Life is liberation; to become one with reality>

and then said:

<Whether it is through politics, therapy or religion, there are those people who are looking for a greater meaning to their lives. For these people, the life of material pleasures is not enough.>

Look around you. Do you see other animals, apart from man, searching for deeper meaning in their lives. In fact, apart from man, is there any other life form that searches for deeper meaning? If we are to become one with nature, do we not need to abandon this 'search for meaning'? Any 'search for meaning' is dependent on a life of thought. If you want to be one with nature, I suggest you lead a life without thought, then you won't stand out from the rest of nature so much.

There is so much more of your post that I disagree with, but let me leave it at that.

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## Ancestor

> That same journey can also be dangerous. We have all heard of the damaging effects wrought by drugs. Many psychic, spiritual, New Age and superconscious groups are like drugs. They entice and entrap the seekers. They are insidious - their dangers are not apparent until it is too late.



You are lumping all whom practice this way into one category which is not even a correct one at that. Anyone not matter what the belief can entice and entrap another all you need is a mind. I for one do not see why you must compare a certain group of people to the effects of drugs. Stop looking at us as a whole but as a individual person. No one practice or does anything the same way and I for one am Spiritual person with a gift. I am in insidious nor do I take my gift lightly as your opinion gives the impression most people do. One wrong word said to the wrong person is dangerous whether you are religious or not. Life is fragile but at the same time it is also stronger then we know. I am stranger do to going through times were I was fragile and I never thought I could be strong. When anyone rapes another they steel much more then their innocence..

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## Ancestor

I feel here that the meaning of religious life is going to be different to each person. The definition is how we as a individual define's our own life and how we choose to live it. You can try lumping us all into one catergory but that to me at least seems unrealistic. Yet there is a good chance that my opinion is an incorrect one but then so is everyone else's too. I guess that means I stick to my opinion until I find out whether it is true or not.  :Wink:

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## Yogi

Everyday we see seeds sprouting, flowers blooming, fruits ripening, but we do not want to think how it happens. There is a power that does this work, it is the all pervading power of Divine Love. Now the time has come to feel this power through the instrument within us. 

This inner awakening is called by many names: Self Realization, Second Birth, Enlightenment, Liberation, Moksha, Satori and it is the goal of all religions and spiritual traditions of the world.

Human awareness can be developed to a higher dimension through Yoga which is not a mental projection. It is a becoming. 

We then realize that we are not this body, mind, ego, conditionings, emotions or intellect, but something of an eternal nature which is always residing in our heart in a pure, undisturbed state - the Self or Spirit. The Spirit is the source of true knowledge, peace and joy. 

I respect your views. Having realised the joy of the self I wanted to share this knowledge with everyone. I do not mean any offence. Please fogive me if I have wounded your feelings in any way. I love you all.

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## Theshizznigg

God is an interesting subject to debate about. 
The purpose of a religous life might be in opinion, go to church, worship, read ones bibles. 
This is wrong for these reasons. God want you! 
He wants you to recognize that he (A) Created the universe and all life within it. (B) That he loves you and has better things planned for you than your earthly existence.

God created the universe, the heavens, etc. His head angel Lucifer, a perfect being rebelled against God because he found himself more desirable, and an equal to God. God thus removed him from heaven, barring him to exist on this horrid little planetoid out in the middle of BFE.
God thus decided to make humans, allowing them to sin and so on. 
His decision for doing so, I believe was that fact that while he wanted to replace Satan, and his cronies, he did not risk another rebellion, so he created man and gave him three simple choices. 

(A) Ally yourself with Satan's dominion, live life wickedly, worship false gods, in full knowledge that you do so by your own choice. Often pursued by Satanists, and Occultists.

(B) Remain neutral, never seek the word of God, or seek God personally, just live life they way you do, and thats it.

(C) Seek God, in the old times, and in the new times. Follow Christs examples, and love the spirit of God. 

Here is a scripture of Satan's corrupting of himself. 
28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Now why do we follow a religious life. 
Some say that it creates us into better human beings, some, that we become closer to God. 
Christians follow the path of Christ, because we believe in the words of Christ, and that by following his examples we ourselves become the being that God wants us to be. 
Though they have many failings, Christian strive to love our God because he has given us our eternal salvation, and has only asked to be loved in return. 
I believe that God created us for three things, because he loves us, because he lives within us, and thus experiences our experiences, our joys and hapiness, and that he has a higher purpose for us. 

Here is a lovely little psalm.
I'm sure the atheist will tear this to pieces, but I don't care.  :FRlol:  

14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

14:5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

14:7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

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## Scheherazade

> Everyday we see seeds sprouting, flowers blooming, fruits ripening, but we do not want to think how it happens. There is a power that does this work, it is the all pervading power of Divine Love. Now the time has come to feel this power through the instrument within us.


We also see wars, hatred, natural disasters, illnesses and do wonder how it all happens and why. If there is a power doing all this work, then it cannot be very benevolent surely.

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## Theshizznigg

> We also see wars, hatred, natural disasters, illnesses and do wonder how it all happens and why. If there is a power doing all this work, then it cannot be very benevolent surely.


God did not create our wicked nature, no, humanity corrupted itself. 
It is said that all good things come from God, so why does God allow evil things to happen. 

God said himself, that he would not contend with mans spirit forever. 
Is it God who rages wars,(before you say anything about religious wars, let me ask you? Does God endorse them, or those that think that God does?) humankind rages war against itself, whatever the guise may be, it is human's outward need for destruction that cause war, it is human greed that causes famines, all the problems of the earth originate from humans, not God. 

God has allowed a point in the universe where there is the existence of evil and wickedness, and a point when it all will end and things will return to the original balance. Until that point it is up to the individual person whether they will be wicked, or pure in their heart, it is their choice! and no excuses can be offered in defence of it.

Man cannot blame the devil for his deeds, nor God, it is his ultimate moral choice to do acts of good or acts of evil.

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## Xamonas Chegwe

Theshizznigg (henceforth to be abbreviated to 'Thig' in my replies - if you have no objections)

Scher included natural disasters and disease in the list of evils. Are you claiming that these stem from 'our wicked nature'? Were the people of Pakistan so wicked that they _deserved_ the tetrrible earthquake they just suffered? How about the Tsunami victims - all evil? What about the farmer's children that died of bird flu in China, Turkey and elsewhere - did they bring it upon themselves?

Nature has a dark side. The beautiful wild creatures eat each other. Some of those fruits that are ripening are poisonous. Opium poppies are very pretty, but look at the despair and crime caused by heroin.

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## Theshizznigg

> I respect your views. Having realised the joy of the self I wanted to share this knowledge with everyone. I do not mean any offence. Please fogive me if I have wounded your feelings in any way. I love you all.


I agree with all of the above, Chrisitianity unfortunately has its human failings, because of human elements. I see constantly the misunderstanding that some Christians spread, and have to wonder to myself. 
Just because you are of a different religion does not mean that I will force my religion onto you. 
My religion is what it is. I would not turn a Moslem away from a church if he wished to pray there, just as I'd expect to be allowed to pray to Christ in a Mosque. 
Many of the stems of religious strife, are also stemmed from misunderstanding, and racial beligerence. 
I for one love many different cultures, enjoy different things, and different peoples because of those things that make them unique from myself. 
And it upsets me that more Christians are not open to being around those of other faiths, or those of a different ethnic background. 
The word Catholicism means "All Embracing" and that is truly what Christians should be. 

Course I cannot win everyone to this arguement. There are cold and hot Christians just like in any other religion, I just wish that so many Christians would not isolate themselves, and give the world the image that they're a scared or boring religous following. 
 :FRlol:  I like to think of myself as a true Catholic, which has nothing to do with the Roman church.

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## Theshizznigg

> Theshizznigg (henceforth to be abbreviated to 'Thig' in my replies - if you have no objections)
> 
> Scher included natural disasters and disease in the list of evils. Are you claiming that these stem from 'our wicked nature'? Were the people of Pakistan so wicked that they _deserved_ the tetrrible earthquake they just suffered? How about the Tsunami victims - all evil? What about the farmer's children that died of bird flu in China, Turkey and elsewhere - did they bring it upon themselves?
> 
> Nature has a dark side. The beautiful wild creatures eat each other. Some of those fruits that are ripening are poisonous. Opium poppies are very pretty, but look at the despair and crime caused by heroin.


Nature is a thing amongst itself, and has been since its creation. 
We humans in biblical terms were given the earth as a gift into our care, and as we self abuse it more and more, it heaves its reactions at us in the act of natural disaster, green house effect, the earth thus reacts to our constant abuse in the only way it can, which is random reactions that don't target anyone by device but simply happen. 
As God told Noah, "While the Earth remains, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and winter and summer, and day and night shall not cease."
Jesus himself said that when the end time was approaching there would be, "Eathquakes, and eruptions." As the Earth went through birthing pains.

Also in reaction to the virus comment, not only does it mention several time that humans will suffer from new plagues and three quarters of the world will be killed off. 
I also would have thought an confessed Athiest would have known that warfare, plagues, and natural disaster are the only great predators of the human race, and that viruses are the only creature with the potential to destroy humankind aside from humankind.
Thus it falls under Creationist and Evolutionary views.

As for those people, I can't say that there deaths are not a tradgedy, death is never an easy thing amongst humans, we weep, we mourn, and we continue. Those deaths did not ensue from wickedness, but disasters, disasters which plague all people, even Christians. 

Yes a Poppy is a beautiful thing, but the heroin created from it is made by humans, and thus it falls into the question of human morality, a humanist and Christian - other religous question, when one looks for the cause of what made the opium. 


And I don't mind you calling me that, as long as I can call you XGM.

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## Scheherazade

Please correct me if I am wrong but you are suggesting that the natural disasters and epidemics happen because 'the end of times' is coming?

However, these are not exclusive to our times, are they? There have always been natural disasters, which destroyed huge number of people... Pompeii, Black Death... Before and after Christ.

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## Xamonas Chegwe

> Nature is a thing amongst itself, and has been since its creation.


ahem...its evolution, if you please.  :Wink: 




> We humans in biblical terms were given the earth as a gift into our care, and as we self abuse it more and more, it heaves its reactions at us in the act of natural disaster, green house effect, the earth thus reacts to our constant abuse in the only way it can, which is random reactions that don't target anyone by device but simply happen.


We 'self abuse it'? Interesting image!

Seriously, earthquakes, tidal waves, comet strikes, volcanic eruptions have all occured since well before man arrived on the planet. You can't blame them all on global warming.




> As God told Noah, "While the Earth remains, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and winter and summer, and day and night shall not cease."


An easy prediction to make. Not much chance of that being disproved in the near future, is there? Although it's actually not true, if scientists views on the future of the sun are to be believed (but in your case, I doubt that they are).




> Jesus himself said that when the end time was approaching there would be, "Eathquakes, and eruptions." As the Earth went through birthing pains.


Another easy one. There have always been such things, so it's unlikely that they will cease. And of course, every time we have 2 or 3 in close succession, that old quote comes out to play.




> Also in reaction to the virus comment, not only does it mention several time that humans will suffer from new plagues and three quarters of the world will be killed off.


Not only, but also...?

Again, an easy prediction, nothing new in plagues. But improvements in medical science start to cast doubt on the 3/4 of the world theory.




> I also would have thought an confessed Athiest would have known that warfare, plagues, and natural disaster are the only great predators of the human race, and that viruses are the only creature with the potential to destroy humankind aside from humankind.
> Thus it falls under Creationist and Evolutionary views.


Why should 'a confessed atheist' have any more knowledge of these things than anyone else? Are you equating atheists and the intelligent perhaps? If so, thank you.

The black death, which probably had the best attempt at wiping out mankind, was a bacterium, not a virus, btw.




> And I don't mind you calling me that, as long as I can call you Xam.


Whatever. A rose by any other name would have as many thorns and still thrive on s***!

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## Theshizznigg

> Please correct me if I am wrong but you are suggesting that the natural disasters and epidemics happen because 'the end of times' is coming?
> 
> However, these are not exclusive to our times, are they? There have always been natural disasters, which destroyed huge number of people... Pompeii, Black Death... Before and after Christ.


Firstly I did not state that the end times are coming (I'm not into the "Oh were gonna die." BS spouted by the JWS.) 
I was simply stating that it said in the bible that earthquakes, Ie "Natural Disasters" would become more apparent in the ages that man declined. 
Natural disaster yes have been happening since the start of time, but since the effects of deforestation, and mans mistration of the planet those natural disaster have increased, weather patterns have changed, and the earth is going into another great change of climate. 

Secondly, it is not Evolution, or biblical affects which cause the propriation of viruses. Those viruses are appropriated by many forms, mainly due to deplorable conditions lived by many human which make them a hotbed for "BREEDING Viruses." Not Evolving, but "BREEDING." Hence the reason the world has plagues, syphilis, spanish flu, small pox, ebola, and so many other the sun.
Other like SARS are products of humankind attempting to perfect Viral Warfare, because if you can wipe out an entire race, you don't have to fight them.
Viruses even from a humanistic point of view are essentially good in the fact that they cull population growth, and constantly show humankind that is isn't impossible for it to be wiped out in one sweeping pandemic. 
As for the bird flu, it might be a pandemic and we might all die from it, which I doubt, many may die from it, but the human race will carry on. 
Its seems beligerent to me though, even petty minded to blame God for the problems that mankind is faced with because he is the easiest target.

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## Theshizznigg

[QUOTE=Xamonas Chegwe]ahem...its evolution, if you please.  :Wink: 

XGM
We 'self abuse it'? Interesting image!

XGM
Seriously, earthquakes, tidal waves, comet strikes, volcanic eruptions have all occured since well before man arrived on the planet. You can't blame them all on global warming.

SHG
I've yet to see you make a productive posting on the forum, or is it by chance that you have not productive comments of you're own, and are thus stuck with rolling around the forums looking for the comments of others so you can jolly yourself by criticizing not only their beliefs but the substantial evidence which they view in evidencing the fact? 

SHG
I didn't blame them all on global warming, I merely pointed out the fact that global warming was a causing effect to the recent rash of natural disasters. 

XGM
An easy prediction to make. Not much chance of that being disproved in the near future, is there? Although it's actually not true, if scientists views on the future of the sun are to be believed (but in your case, I doubt that they are).

SHG
Again, the global warmth pattern doesn't have everything to do with natural disasters. Such things as odd lunar allignments, slight shifting in the poles, plates in the earth contacting, cause natural disaster. 

XGM
Another easy one. There have always been such things, so it's unlikely that they will cease. And of course, every time we have 2 or 3 in close succession, that old quote comes out to play.

SHG
I was stating the quote for the benefit of the Christians on the forum, and it is neither my fault or indeed my care if you, and every other person on this forum finds the quote unnerving, or totally above your set mode of thinking. 
I apologize I did not think that I needed to censure the scriptures for the sake of those who are not of a holy faith, or those that claim to have no religion. 

XGM
Not only, but also...?
XGM
Again, an easy prediction, nothing new in plagues. But improvements in medical science start to cast doubt on the 3/4 of the world theory.

SHG
New plagues can happen anytime, look at the SARS outbreak, a outbreak that had anaylist predicting casualities in the hundreds of thousands before it was controlled. 
The bird flu is merely a new breed of bacteria, virus, plague, whatever you wish to call it, and the world neither prepared for an outbreak, when and if it does happen. 
Also with the sale of food on an international scale it is highly possible for food to be tainted and an outbreak not to be an isolated incident, but affect the world population. 

XGM
Why should 'a confessed atheist' have any more knowledge of these things than anyone else? Are you equating atheists and the intelligent perhaps? If so, thank you.

SHG
I meant that even those confessing Athiesm as their religion, because it is a religion. Should also be able to see the facts that viruses, plagues, bacterias, are the process of viral, bacterial, breeding causing them to spread amongst the population, instead of the theory that God's hanging in a cloud with a can of avian flu and a hand fan, going "You will all pay!" in a viscous action of fanning fast and giggling like a schoolgirl. 
Unless of course XGM your willing to admit that you believe there is a god and you think he obviously hates you?

SHG
Get real, please.
And stop being so childishly negative because you find my faith offensive, and do not like the fact that I state my religious views without being cowed by fear or acts of religious oppression. 

XGM
The black death, which probably had the best attempt at wiping out mankind, was a bacterium, not a virus, btw.

SHG
Thanks for the fact, I've corrected my comment so as not to offend your obviously superior intellect and grasp of the world.
Have a fund time ripping this one apart, I made it just for you.  :Wink:  
Have a nice day, XGM.
 :Banana:  

"A rose is beauty perhaps? but a violet is lust unceasing."

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## Xamonas Chegwe

Theshizznigg (I think I finally got the hang of your name without scrolling up the page),

I resent your accusation that I have nothing positive to contribute to this forum. I consider it unfounded and a personal attack. I similarly resent being called 'childishly negative'. I am neither.

I merely respond to the words that I see in the post. Setting my point of view against that put forward by others. Where I agree, I say so; where I disagree, I say so; where I feel there is a fundamental flaw in the argument's logic, I say so too. I prefer to utilise humour in my responses, I am sorry if that offends you, but a lot of people seem to appreciate it, so I will continue.

My posts are not personally derogatory. I neither fear your religious views, oppress them, nor disagree with your right to hold them. My own belief system (not religion - I dispute that atheism is any such thing) is sincerely held and I am secure and consistent in my convictions. 

I feel you are taking my points too personally, they were not intended that way. Please do me the courtesy of similarly refraining from personal attacks yourself.

I stand by the points that I made in my last post. I don't feel that you have adequately addressed them. Perhaps if you calm down a little, you might get your point across more clearly.

Peace,

XC

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## Scheherazade

Theshizznigg> I am really at a loss to understand the point you are making.

In response to Yogi's 'lovely earth created by a supreme being' comment, I merely pointed out that, *if* one believes that all the nice and good things in this world are created by God, one should also keep in mind that there are far less enchanting things waiting for us in this very same world created by the very same God.

You have mentioned repeatedly that illnesses and natural disasters (along with wars and such) are all a result of humanbeings' 'wickedness'. I am still not sure how an earthquake happens or volcano erupts because we have been 'naughty' but, even if, for one moment, we accept your explanation, I don't understand why a benevolent God would create humanbeings in a way that they would be capable of being 'wicked' and commit all these atrocities? Why a loving God would make room for all the illnesses? 

Why send humanbeings into a world naked and without any weapons and protection to defend themselves? Among all the animals, I think we are the least fortunate ones when it comes to physical advantages: we cannot walk, we don't have fur, we dont have teeth/claws etc. It does seem rather unfair.


*To All> This is a religous discussion; please avoid attacking other members personally because of their beliefs and opinions.*

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## Whifflingpin

"Why send humanbeings into a world naked and without any weapons and protection to defend themselves? Among all the animals, I think we are the least fortunate ones when it comes to physical advantages: we cannot walk, we don't have fur, we dont have teeth/claws etc. It does seem rather unfair."

T.H. White has a rather nice parable about that. I'd only spoil it by a precis, so I had better refer you to "The Sword in the Stone," chapter XXI

.

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## Unspar

I have no idea what's going on overall in this discussion, but as for the "state of the world" vs. "benevolent God" digression, here's an attempt at mediation.

The more rational Christian perspective is not that disasters are God punishing us for our sin (after Jesus, He doesn't do that anymore) but that this world sucks. In other words, we live in an imperfect world. Hence the seemingly senseless destruction. People suffer. That's the simple nature of the world we live in.

A creationist Christian would draw this back to the fall of Adam and Eve. In the Garden of Eden, God had created a perfect world. In eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, Adam and Eve were no longer able to live in a perfect world. God didn't straight up kick them out of the Garden; they pretty much did it to themselves. So they were sent into "the wilderness," which is the imperfect world we have now, full of disasters and suffering and whatnot.

Now how could a benevolent God do that? How could he send his most favorite creations defenseless into the wilderness? For one, it wasn't His choice; it was Adam and Eve's, and they made an unfortunate one. For two, man wasn't exactly defenseless (which is how I interpret "we cannot walk, we don't have fur, we dont have teeth/claws etc")--not only did humans prosper and multiply fairly well, but Cain's murder of his brother shows that people had weapons and were pretty capable of using them. If they could kill people, they could kill animals. For three, God continued to show His benevolence in the thousands of years following. He saved Noah instead of wiping out all of mankind; He blessed Abraham by giving him a son and making a nation of him; He delivered the Israelites from Egypt and brought them through the desert to the promised land; He made Israel into a kingdom. You could say that He cast the Israelites into exile in Babylon, but He warned them through numerous prophets, and even after they didn't heed them he promised to restore them to Israel. And He gave His only son, Jesus Christ, to die in order that mankind might spend eternal life with Him. If that's not benevolent, I don't know what is.

Of course, that assumes you believe all the Biblical stuff about God. But when it comes to discussing the benevolent nature of God, that's pretty much all there is. It sucks that bad things happen, but God does everything He can to make sure that more good things happen to His people than bad things.

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## Theshizznigg

> Theshizznigg> I am really at a loss to understand the point you are making.
> 
> In response to Yogi's 'lovely earth created by a supreme being' comment, I merely pointed out that, *if* one believes that all the nice and good things in this world are created by God, one should also keep in mind that there are far less enchanting things waiting for us in this very same world created by the very same God.
> 
> You have mentioned repeatedly that illnesses and natural disasters (along with wars and such) are all a result of humanbeings' 'wickedness'. I am still not sure how an earthquake happens or volcano erupts because we have been 'naughty' but, even if, for one moment, we accept your explanation, I don't understand why a benevolent God would create humanbeings in a way that they would be capable of being 'wicked' and commit all these atrocities? Why a loving God would make room for all the illnesses? 
> 
> Why send humanbeings into a world naked and without any weapons and protection to defend themselves? Among all the animals, I think we are the least fortunate ones when it comes to physical advantages: we cannot walk, we don't have fur, we dont have teeth/claws etc. It does seem rather unfair.
> 
> 
> *To All> This is a religous discussion; please avoid attacking other members personally because of their beliefs and opinions.*


I have never claimed that illnesses,plagues, flu's, or viruses were an act of God to punish "the unholy sinners" Seriously doesn't anybody ever clearly read my post. 
I said that 
1) Humanities only natural predators, from both my view, and scientifically are such. Viruses, Natural Disaster, and War. 
I have never, ever claimed that Natural disasters were an act of and "Angry God," or viruses was God "petty revenge" Against evil humans. 
I merely stated, that when you said things like war, and crime, and attrocities stem also from our creator, (whether he is God, primordial ooze, or a big man in a pea green boat) that I came to Gods defence, because God did not create evil, so no evil can stem from God. 
Thus evil can only come from two places, the Devil, (who despite what we are told is not responsible for mans actions or choices, he can push but not shove, hence mans "freedom of will/choice.")
Or the wicked nature that comes from humanity in general, IE Rape, pillaging, ethnic cleansing, intolerance, pessimism, selfishness, and so many others that I can't name them all.
2) That all flus and viruses co-breed in order to become stronger, and it was not an impossibility for such viruses/epidemics to severely cull human numbers, as it has done it the past. I merely refered to the effect mentioned in Revelations, because I thought it was interesting, and in no way claimed that viruses/infection/pandemic/epidemics were an act of an "Angry God."
So Lets review, we have

A) I did not claim that natural disasters happen because of mans wickedness, I merely opened a discussion to what it says in the bible about what is comming in the end of humanity, that is essentially biblical and has nothing to do with the present state of affairs, or any natural disaster, it merely touched down on the discussion that in Revelations the end will be plagued with a rash of natural disasters.

B) I did not claim that all human viruses are an act of Gods retribution amongst man. In fact, I took the humanist view that viruses were an essential part of nature, becaue they are the only things that can kill of humans in large numbers, thus cutting down the size of the human population. 

C) I did claim however that since evil could not originate from God it had to originate from somewhere else, and the only real cause of much of the misery in this world is manmade, through acts of genocide, war, famine, depression, and opression. 
This is not a claim that things like disease and natural disaster, things that can cause misery are not responsible sometimes for some of the misery created. 

To say that sending humans out into the word naked with no weapons to use against nature, animals was unfair is wrong for two reasons. 
Genesis states that the first animal murder was when God killed animals in eden to make clothes for humans. Secondly, humans does not need things such as fangs, or clang, because humans have a unique gift over animals, the ability to think. With the ability to think, one has the ability to create, plan, and execute desicions in far greater capacity than animals ever could. Thats what makes up for human pyshical disadvantages. 

I think it was best said in the recent quote, (Forgive me I can't remember who posted it, I think it was XGM) 
"A poppy is a thing of beauty, but heroin is made from that poppy."
Now I ask, who makes the heroin? The answer to this is the answer I've essentially been trying to give you since your original comment.
Hopefully I've laid out my arguement clearly enough for you.

"Love Andu Peace"
Vash The Stampede. 

Shizz

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## Theshizznigg

> "Why send humanbeings into a world naked and without any weapons and protection to defend themselves? Among all the animals, I think we are the least fortunate ones when it comes to physical advantages: we cannot walk, we don't have fur, we dont have teeth/claws etc. It does seem rather unfair."
> 
> T.H. White has a rather nice parable about that. I'd only spoil it by a precis, so I had better refer you to "The Sword in the Stone," chapter XXI
> 
> .


I loved you comment, no really I did, and I'm looking forward to hopefully explaining this to you. 

Firstly, God created man with dominion over animals, this was all animals big and tall, large and small. The only biblical animal man could not control was the Lethiavan the water dragon, dominater of the oceans, which God himself was only able to tame.
So when God cast Adam out of Eden, he killed the first animals and clothed them in skins, then threw them out with all the other humans, he did not relinquish Adam's power of control over animals. 

3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

Thus human society would have hardly had to exist with any form of weapons for defence, thus the primary weapons would have been agragarian tools, and if I remember correctly, Cain slew Abel with either a staff a hoe or a rock, (Not sure which.) Afterwards, Cain seperated from the tribe of Adam, or Seth as it later became and brought the idea of warfare/weaponry made specifically for war into human society.

4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Thus the tribe of Seth bred into the tribe of Cain and brought the lovely idea of warfare into human nature. 

Now, at this time according to the bible, the Nephelim, (Giants/demons/fallen angels) saw that the daughters of man were beautiful, and bred amongst them, creating men of old, people of reknowned. 

6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

So then God decided to flood the earth, and saved only Noah. Then after as he made his promises to Noah, he stated.

9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

Thus shattering mans control over many of the beasts on the earth.
Hopefully this has helped answer you questions a little. 
I got the bible quotes from this website.

Peace out Shizz

Interesting passage of Enoch who was so close to God like Elijah, that God took him instead of letting him die.

5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

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## Theshizznigg

> Theshizznigg (I think I finally got the hang of your name without scrolling up the page),
> 
> I resent your accusation that I have nothing positive to contribute to this forum. I consider it unfounded and a personal attack. I similarly resent being called 'childishly negative'. I am neither.
> 
> I merely respond to the words that I see in the post. Setting my point of view against that put forward by others. Where I agree, I say so; where I disagree, I say so; where I feel there is a fundamental flaw in the argument's logic, I say so too. I prefer to utilise humour in my responses, I am sorry if that offends you, but a lot of people seem to appreciate it, so I will continue.
> 
> My posts are not personally derogatory. I neither fear your religious views, oppress them, nor disagree with your right to hold them. My own belief system (not religion - I dispute that atheism is any such thing) is sincerely held and I am secure and consistent in my convictions. 
> 
> I feel you are taking my points too personally, they were not intended that way. Please do me the courtesy of similarly refraining from personal attacks yourself.
> ...


Actually XCM I feel that i must apologize to you. I have been very uncharitable when considering your feelings, and your posts and have been outwardly hostile in some senses to your posting, which I feel is a failure on my part, and not on anyone elses. 
Thus I agree that we both should refrain from using our religious feelings as weapons against eachother. 
Please accept my sincerest apology, it was unbecoming and beyond me as both a Christian, and a gentleman.

I also have a question for you XCM where is it in the UK you live, I am British myself though I'm classified as an Terroritorial citizen. 

In fact I must thank you all, ever since I've been posting on this forum I've managed to regain the zeal for debate that had been stripped from me by years of isolationism. 
This in turn has helped me to be better motivated in both my work and schooling, thank you. 

"Wealth is cheap, but to love cost dear." - One of my families motto's
Shizz

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## Xamonas Chegwe

> Actually XCM I feel that i must apologize to you. I have been very uncharitable when considering your feelings, and your posts and have been outwardly hostile in some senses to your posting, which I feel is a failure on my part, and not on anyone elses.


Thank you for that THZG. It was big of you.




> Thus I agree that we both should refrain from using our religious feelings as weapons against eachother.


But you had to ruin it. I have not used religious feelings (and am unsure of how they can be used as weapons  :Confused:  ) or anything else against you personally. I have used logical arguments, tinged with occasional sarcasm I'll admit, as a response to the words which you post.




> Please accept my sincerest apology, it was unbecoming and beyond me as both a Christian, and a gentleman.


Accepted, with the proviso that my last paragraph be borne in mind. Please accept mine for any unintentional offence - communication is a blunt tool sometimes.




> I also have a question for you XCM where is it in the UK you live, I am British myself though I'm classified as an Terroritorial citizen.


I am sorry but I never give out personal details of that kind on a public forum. The Midlands is as close as I'll own to.




> In fact I must thank you all, ever since I've been posting on this forum I've managed to regain the zeal for debate that had been stripped from me by years of isolationism. 
> This in turn has helped me to be better motivated in both my work and schooling, thank you.


Pleased to hear it. I hope that you learn to temper that zeal with more restraint and take on board the comments made by others. Effective argument requires technique as much zeal. I look forward to more edifying, and less volatile, discussions in future.

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## falling*moon

God gives us the choice to live, and to choose between good and evil.. everything around you can help you see the best path to go through.
I can’t blame God for the miseries in the world.. 



one of you said : 

‘And who could have saved the lives
Of over six million Jews?’

I bet it was a very HUGE oven Hitler used back then!!!! 

Anyway, the Jews were not the only victims in the world.. 

The US army attacked Iraq and killed many innocent people claiming them to have mass clear weapons which turned out to be B***t ..

I can’t blame God .. I blame the army and the one who sent the Army..!

Israel killed thousands of Palestinians ( Christians & Muslims) and destroyed their houses, no one stopped them .. not even God.. but ..can I blame God for what humans do ?? 



Of course not , that’s why we should ask ourselves .. blame our destructive systems .. God asked us to build the planet with love not hatred .. God said .. build.. not Destroy..  :Nod:  



bless ya

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## Xamonas Chegwe

OK people. I'm opening a book on when falling moon's last post gets censored.

5/1 - within the next minute.
3/1 - the next 5 minutes.
2/1....

etc. You get the picture. (sigh...)

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## XXdarkclarityXX

Falling Moon,

"The US army attacked Iraq and killed many innocent people claiming them to have mass clear weapons which turned out to be B***t .."

All I have to say to that is prove it. Please, I would like you to do that. Now I know you're not used to qualifying your statements, but I think in this case you can make an exception. Oh, and the US Army attacked Saddam, not Iraq. They are NOT the same thing. And who cares if they didn't find WMD? They found a dictator who had no right to rule, so they kicked him out. I'd call that one hell of a good deed. 

"I cant blame God .. I blame the army and the one who sent the Army"

I agree with you to a point, but what happens when the army's motivation is God? Are the Inquisition and the Crusades justifiable, just because God did them? Were these things even legitimate, or were they fanatical aims at eradicating resistance to Christianity? 

I'm just an inquisitive individual who walks down a path for which the purpose is unknown. Please respond, for doing so places roadsigns upon my path and gives direction to my obscure journey.

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## Logos

Please do not discuss current politics here.

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