# Reading > General Literature >  Catcher in the Rye

## Millow

I'm supposed to be comparing existentialism and the importance of individuality in Catcher and 1984, I'm completely stuck. Anyone have any ideas?

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## nome1486

As I understand it, existentialism basically _is_ belief in the importance of individuality--that life has no meaning except what each individual makes of it. So, if you have some information on existential philosophers (Jean-Paul Sartre is one), you can demonstrate how this philosophy is used in those novels--how the characters make their own choices about what their lives should be like. I know that's not much, but does it help at all?

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## chrissy

Simone de Bouvoirs another existentialist philosopher that's worth checking out. I don't know much about it and it's been a while since I read Catcher in the Rye but I remember the book focusing on the individual character and his inabilty to fit in to the structures around him. 
Maybe that's a starting point for you.........

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## AbdoRinbo

> I remember the book focusing on the individual character and his inabilty to fit in to the structures around him. 
> Maybe that's a starting point for you.........


That's it! Existentialism was partly a response to the pre-WWII fascination with Ferdinand de Saussure's Structuralism (in which each identity takes on its meaning on the basis of a relationship with other parts of an overall structure). The Existentialists spear-headed the movement that the Postmodernists (or, more precisely, Poststructuralists) became famous for. Jacques Derrida (Deconstruction), Jacques Lacan (Psychoanalysis), Michel Foucault (New Historicism), and Judith Butler (Queer Theory), as well as William V. Spanos (Postcolonialism) are some of the big names in the field of Poststructuralism. Here's a brief explanaton of the three different schools and their relationship with each other:

Structuralism preaches the doctrine that signs (words, for example) operate based on a system of differences. Words correspond to certain ideas . . . obviously we couldn't have just one word to capture every meaning, because the word would be too vague and would, subsequently, become useless. On the other hand, we could not have 1,000 different words that all mean the same thing, because, practically speaking, it wouldn't make any sense to use so many different signs to represent one idea. So we generally have a system of one idea per corresponding word . . . sometimes words share many different meanings (e.g. 'dull', 'grace', 'fly') and other times one meaning is signified by many different words, but the whole system is generally balanced. Those are the bare bones of Structuralism. You can apply this theory to anything that has an identity (this theory has been applied to everything from Economics to how the Human Mind operates). 

Existentialism rejects the notion that meaning exists out there somewhere, and that the words (or any other sign, be it audial, visual, sensual, &amp;c.) we use are nothing more than little doorways to the presence of those meanings. Existentialists are individuals who are willing to live their lives both within and without the system that frames their identity. They accept the truth that life is absurd and that no prior meaning can be found . . . in that sense, they operate within it. However, as individuals, they construct their own meanings--their own fates--outside of the system they are operating in from day to day by creating their own moral code and living each day as if it were the last. Existentialism is a way of soothing the anxiety that transpires when everything you have known up to a certain point becomes a lie.

The Poststructuralists point out a few of the major flaws in both Structuralism and Existentialism: That signs are thought of as gateways toward meaning . . . and that meaning exists out there somewhere beyond our reach, is founded on a very poblematic set of concepts. First of all, I have said that Structuralism is based on a 'system of differences'. The Poststructuralists pointed out that Saussure still presupposed that meaning was 'out there' somewhere without adequately explaining the nature of the signs, which are the revealers of the presence of meaning. After all, 'meaning' is a word . . . it is a sign that operates just like all of the other signs . . . founded on the principle that differences precede identity. It forms its own particular identity (just as all signs do) because there is another sign out there that is opposed to it and it alone: 'absence'. 

Consider this question: Can there be a 'derivitive' without an 'original'? Of course not. So, likewise, there cannot be an original without a derivitive to make it 'original'. If there was never a derivitive, then the idea of originality would never have been there to begin with . . . the two are co-dependent. It works just the same with other dichotomies such as Male/Female, Good/Evil, Father/Child, Being/Nothingness. If difference does indeed precede identity, then meaning of the sort that Saussure imagined is illegitimate since it exists outside the system of signification (the collection of all signs). 

But what is a structure? It is a relationship of signs. For example, when I (an American) say 'yes', I am converying a very specific meaning. Perhaps I am responding to a question, or maybe I am just letting someone know that I am ready to listen. Regardless, I am using a certain sound to represent an idea. At the same time, Jean-Charles in Strasbourg, a Frenchman is saying 'oui' and conveying the same idea that I am . . . but why the different word? Why do I say yes while he says oui? Because yes has a different placement in the structure of the English language. Oui means the same thing, but its placement in the French linguistic structure is not the same as ours. Yes means 'yes' because it is not the word 'less', 'mess', 'bless', 'blast', 'past', or any other word for the matter. And, of course, the same goes for jean-Charles. The identities of words are the same as the identities of people . . . read the French Neo-Freudian, Jacques Lacan, if you want to know how peoples' minds work in a linguistic system. You are the reader because I am the writer. I am AbdoRinbo because I am not Chrissy, nome1486, Zooey, or anyone else for that matter, which comes as a slap in the face to the Existentialist theory of the 'autonomy of the individual'. Check out any of the authors I have listed above for a more thorough and articulate description of Poststructuralism.

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## Millow

Thanks! I'll try and use some of the stuff you guys said.

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## fayefaye

ok, let's get a discussion going. What did you think?

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## Stanislaw

I have heard the name, And have heard that it is a good book, but I have never read it. What is it about.

*showing off my ignorance :Frown: *

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## fayefaye

This guy, Holden Caulfield, gets kicked out of another school. the stuff that happens after that. 

one of my fave things about it-it makes fun of Dickens.[delightful]. Anyone want to discuss Salinger's writing style? At first I really liked it, but halfway through I got pretty sick of it. It was killing me, it really was. The continuous double negatives, repetition in the sentences, and millions of sentences ending in 'and all.' I started going nuts. I know he did in on purpose, but I got sick of reading things like 'they didn't hardly ever.' [maybe I'm just pedantic. should I be the new grammer nazi?]

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## Demona

*reading it now*
I agree that the grammar part gets pretty annoying at some point but on the other hand - it`s an average teenager...what did you expect? 
in general, i like the book so far - its very funny; the way he describes everything, and all. (c) =] 
Holden is a non-conformist, has his principles...
i pretty much agree with the phony-people/world idea but
lets see how it goes on.

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## Dick Diver

And the author has been true to his art - the book's cover, his hermitic existence, etc.

In a world where so many artists 'sell out', kudos to him for writing 'the assassin's favourite novel'.

His other published work is excellent too - I do hope he has been writing all these decades and not just masturbating or something..... :Wink: 

 :Eek:

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## crisaor

> _Originally posted by Stanislaw_ 
> *I have heard the name, And have heard that it is a good book, but I have never read it.*


You should give it a try. I'm positive you'll like it.




> _Originally posted by fayefaye_ 
> * Anyone want to discuss Salinger's writing style? At first I really liked it, but halfway through I got pretty sick of it. It was killing me, it really was. The continuous double negatives, repetition in the sentences, and millions of sentences ending in 'and all.' I started going nuts. I know he did in on purpose, but I got sick of reading things like 'they didn't hardly ever.' [maybe I'm just pedantic. should I be the new grammar nazi?]*


I actually enjoyed it. As you say, it's part of the vocabulary of a 16 years old. It can be tiresome, I'll admit that (not for me, though  :Biggrin:  ).
About that new occupation, I wouldn't apply for the job if I were you. There's too much of that already  :Wink:

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## Koa

Double negatives??? Good I read a translation.... I'll tell you a secret...if you ever want to get me very confused, use a lot of negatives in sentence  :Biggrin:

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## fayefaye

most sixteen year olds have better vocabulary than that. Or at least, I would hope so.

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## Koa

You're far too optimistic on that Faye. I believe most 16-year-old, at least British ones, have a far worse vocabulary than that, and I'm talking about spoken language, cos when it comes to writing they would spell correctly 1 word out of 5.

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## fayefaye

I think you're way off-people in england are far better at english than people here, and excellent spellers to boot.

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## IWilKikU

I'm an american who lives in England. I live in a city called Bracknell. It's a disgusting city full of disgusting people. Back in the US, I live in a little redneck town called New Market, VA. And lemme tell ya, average joe New Market could out grammer average joe Bracknell with in his sleep. People here are illiterate.

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## Koa

oh my god

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## den

All around... you have my sympathies.  :Wink:  






> _Originally posted by IWilKikU_ 
> *I'm an american who lives in England. I live in a city called Bracknell. It's a disgusting city full of disgusting people. Back in the US, I live in a little redneck town called New Market, VA. And lemme tell ya, average joe New Market could out grammer average joe Bracknell with in his sleep. People here are illiterate.*

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## Dick Diver

I live in England and there are many plebs here.

Part of the problem is the dumbing down of society which is encouraged by our dear leader Phony Blair.

Most plebs only read The Sun newspaper or if they are feeling adventurous, Heat magazine.

Don't get the wrong impression - I'm not feeling superior because I read - I just get angry at how people get fed crap and accept it.

I should add that where America leads, we follow - culturally as well as militarily.

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## IWilKikU

Whereabouts do you live Dick?

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## Dick Diver

Beautiful South London.....

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## imthefoolonthehill

As a 16-year-old, I object. I have, like, a big vocabulary, dude!

By the way... Catcher in the Rye is a wonderful and inspiring book. 

While the writing style may grow tiresome for some people, I believe it adds to the tone, as well as defining the style of the writing. It helps create the image of a teenager who doesn't give a **** about tradition or conformity. In fact, he hates all the phoniness around him. All the high-horsed freaks who talk like Harding from One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest display phoniness in their language whereas Holden shows that we needn't use words no one understands to appear smart. 

Oh... P.S. I love his ideas on Phoniness... it REALLY IS all around us.

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## AbdoRinbo

Koa, I love your signature.

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## fayefaye

I KNOW that your average sixteen year old's vocabulary and grammer's got to be better than that. Aside from that, Holden was supposed to be 17 when he wrote it, recounting things that happened when he was 16. And I'm definately sticking up for British spelling ability. Just cause I love that country.

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## David J

I once saw on tv a debate about which book better represented the voice of American rebellious youth - Catcher in the Rye or On the Road. Just wondering what you think about that.

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## IWilKikU

Dick Diver, do you know any really good used book stores anywhere near central London? Or at least near an underground stop? If so can you give me directions? I'll probably get into London at least once more before I go home for the holidays.

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## johnnyb7

Charing Cross Road is lined with used book shops. Also outside the National Film Theatre on the South Bank there are open air book stalls where you can just walk around and browse away to your hearts content.

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## IWilKikU

Thanks Johnny

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## Dick Diver

I can only concur with johnnyb7 - I'm so poor at the moment, it's either the library or shoplifting. :Smile:

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## Koa

Sorry...I can't help it...I believe it's 'grammar', not 'grammer'...

I'm almost sure cos in my mind English words are listed using Italian reading rules...therefore I know how I'd read them if I didn't know English... therefore I remember how to spell them.

I've noticed how many little spelling mistakes English speakers do, because of the irregularity of the English spelling rules... At first I was shocked, then I realised how it works in their mind and noticed how easy it is to get it wrong

*throws fireworks to wake people up after this speech*

Hey about Holden...I once lent the book to a friend of mine, he read it all (quite rare for him), and liked it...and he's still wondering where the hell the ducks go when the lake is frozen (or whatever that question was  :Wink: )

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## Jay

lol Koa, it indeed IS "grammar"  :Wink:   :Biggrin: 

lol lol, still awake and with you there, and I got to the same conclusion myself, but without the Italian thingy, I know maybe ten or less Italian words

Does anyone know where the ducks go when the lake is frozen?  :Wink:   :Biggrin:

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## azmuse

or where the butterflies go when it rains?

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## fayefaye

the ducks fly south for the winter [I think. Maybe they just disappear into some weird parallel universe?], and the fish stay in the pond, but it's only frozen at the surface, of course. Maybe butterflies just search for shelter somewhere? i dont' think Judas is in hell either, but maybe I shouldn't say that. (?)

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## IWilKikU

I have a friend with a pond. They feed thier ducks year round so they never fly away. Sometimes they are flying around and try to land on the ice and just splatter and skid across the lake. hehe. They dont really get hurt, it just looks funny. 

But seriously, Ducks, along with most songbirds, fly south. They ususally end up in Mexico or souther US, depending on how cold it is that winter.

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## fayefaye

that sort of takes the wonder out of it, doesn't it?

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## IWilKikU

sorry  :Smile:

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## fayefaye

that's ok. I like his idea of pretending to be mute. Sometimes I like to pretend I can't speak English.  :Smile:

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## Jay

LOL Faye  :Biggrin: , sometimes I don't even need to pretend  :Biggrin:   :Wink:

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## fayefaye

It's pretty funny.. until they start getting desperate and giving me weird looks, then I go and TALK and they realise I can understand them. which sucks, because then I'm drawn into a -oh-no- conversation.

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## Koa

That's fun... I know some guys that stopped people asking for directions pretending to be tourists, and after the person struggled to explain for a while, they just said 'Ok guys, that way', in our dialect...  :Biggrin: 

Sometimes I wonder how I'd feel if I couldn't read, and all these signs were nonsense to me...

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## imthefoolonthehill

fayefaye


Read one flew over the cukoo's nest...

it has a guy in there who pretends to be mute... and the author has some really good ideas as to why we should pretend to be mute... (or something like that)

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## fayefaye

Not just mute, but deaf too.  :Smile:

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## DumbLikeAPoet

> _Originally posted by Dick Diver_ 
> *
> His other published work is excellent too - I do hope he has been writing all these decades and not just masturbating or something.....*


Seriously does anyone have any info on what Salinger has been doing since he dropped out of sight? Does he give interviews?

Jonus

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## imthefoolonthehill

fayefaye- have you read it? 

(you are right of course)...

I have yet to find someone who has also read that book... I absolutely LOVE it... 

I've read it twice so far... bought the book from the library... :-D (they were going to discard it after the next book sale)

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## fayefaye

No. ... but sometimes I pretend I'm deaf too.  :Wink:  I don't even know who it's by....?

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## Jay

It's by Ken Kesey if I'm not mistaken and understand you wanted the author of the One Fly Over the Cuckoo's Nest...

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## Zooey

> _Originally posted by imthefoolonthehill_ 
> *As a 16-year-old, I object. I have, like, a big vocabulary, dude!
> 
> By the way... Catcher in the Rye is a wonderful and inspiring book. 
> 
> While the writing style may grow tiresome for some people, I believe it adds to the tone, as well as defining the style of the writing. It helps create the image of a teenager who doesn't give a **** about tradition or conformity. In fact, he hates all the phoniness around him. All the high-horsed freaks who talk like Harding from One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest display phoniness in their language whereas Holden shows that we needn't use words no one understands to appear smart. 
> 
> Oh... P.S. I love his ideas on Phoniness... it REALLY IS all around us.*


 Thank gawd that there's at least _one_ illuminating post on this whole thread. I was hoping for some interesting discussion on this controversial book, but alas, none is to be found.

And the thing is, I can't really add much to it. Obviously I prefer Salinger's _Franny and Zooey_, but I'd consider _Catcher_ to be one of my favorite books as well. Problem is, I read it so long ago I don't really remember a whole lot of specifics. I do agree, as a teenager, that this is a book that tends to speak to teens more than any other age group. Holden embodies those of us who dare to break the mold and search for something deeper than the superficiality most teenagers (and people in general) are content to live their lives in. He may not be the best or the brightest or the most eloquent, but damn it, he's trying. Just for that I think he's one of the most fascinating characters in all of fiction.

Actually, I just received a copy of this book (the awesome reprint of the first edition) for Christmas, and was planning on giving it another look over Christmas break. Will add some thoughts when that actually happens.




> _Originally posted by Dick Diver_ 
> *His other published work is excellent too - I do hope he has been writing all these decades and not just masturbating or something.....*


 Hmm... never really thought about this. It would be interesting (and wonderful) if after his passing (God forbid) a bunch of his work suddenly surfaces a la Kafka. Hopefully the man has been writing all this time. 

And if he _has_ been masturbating this whole time, hopefully at least he's enjoyed himself and feels that it was worth it in the end.  :Wink:

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## fayefaye

All us teens should gather together to overthrow the stupid image that Nic has given to youth. And, yeah, I like the phoniness idea too. I've probably come across far worse phonies than Holden has.

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## imthefoolonthehill

Thanks for the compliment on my post, Zooey...

I got Catcher in the Rye for Christmas too... and have the same plans... if I can ever get through that *#%&@*(%& Scarlet Letter (Hawthorne)... it is so dry, it could soak up the pacific.

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## fayefaye

Why don't you throw it into the ocean and see what happens?

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## DumbLikeAPoet

Don't do it Fool!!!!! OMG what if it really soaks up the pacific? 

Jonus

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## fayefaye

lol. then I can make my trek to the US.  :Smile:

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## imthefoolonthehill

lol... I finally finished that... and I think you can start walking anytime, fayefaye

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## cheers_see

i was drawn to the book by its big fame as the most important book of the most important author so taken by many americans, for a reason i believe, that's their hero of their time. but for the style and language, forget it...

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## imthefoolonthehill

> _Originally posted by fayefaye_ 
> *All us teens should gather together to overthrow the stupid image that Nic has given to youth. And, yeah, I like the phoniness idea too. I've probably come across far worse phonies than Holden has.*


who is nic? Not the author... not Colden Haulfield... who?

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## fayefaye

never mind. hey, looks like it's time for my random quotes! 

'I'm sort of glad they've got the atomic bomb invented. If there's ever another war, I'm going to sit right the hell on top of it. I'll volunteer for it, I swear to God I will'

'It's hopeless, anyway. If you had a million years to do it in, you couldn't rub out even half the 'F*ck you' signs in the world. It's impossible'

'I think, even, if I ever die, and they stick me in a cemetery, and I have a tombstone and all, it'll say 'Holden Caulfield' on it, and then what year I was born and what year I died, and then right under that it'll say 'F*ck you.' I'm positive, in fact.'

Don't know why I chose those....

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## crisaor

You know, just because AbdoRinbo is gone, you don't have to fill his "pointless replies" void.

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## Koa

Why? The quotes are nice, I like to find quotes in books and I thought it was nice fay put hers...If u were referring to that.

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## imthefoolonthehill

I liked those quotes so much... they are going into my aim profile.

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## IWilKikU

those are great quotes. Good call Faye.

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## fayefaye

I wanted to get a discussion going on how Holden thinks. You know, he sorta sounds a bit trapped, but is he really? Anyway, I like 'em. fool-what's an aim profile anyways?

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## crisaor

> _Originally posted by Koa_ 
> *Why? The quotes are nice, I like to find quotes in books and I thought it was nice fay put hers...If u were referring to that.*


I like to find quotes too, but I wasn't referring to that post specifically. Nevermind  :Smile:  .

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## imthefoolonthehill

fayefaye- an aim profile is uh... well first I should say what aim is...

It stands for Aol Instant Messenger. (I like msn better but my friends are all on aim)... anyways.. Aim gives you a place to talk about whatever... most people have quotes or say who they are... and they call it the aim profile.

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## Munro

To state the obvious - Holden doesn't want to grow up but feels it's too late and that he has to, and despises the corruption of the world he's awakened to. He wants to protect kids from the faults of adults, like the word "****" written all over Phoebe's school. He wants to catch all of the kids before they fall, maybe to stop them from having to grow up. 
For some reason, I always interpreted the catcher in the rye as a psychologist. My English teacher frowned when I told him that.

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## Sindhu

> _Originally posted by fayefaye_ 
> 
> 
> one of my fave things about it-it makes fun of Dickens.[delightful].


 I'll state the obvious first- I think Salinger's books are great- thogh I prefer the Glass books to Catcher. Catcher IS a favourite read though.
But faye, I never noticed the "makes fun of Dickens" bit- or am I forgetting something? Are we talking content or style here? I'm intrigued- information, please! :Smile: 
Sindhu.

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## fayefaye

like at the start when he refers to 'all that David Copperfield kind of crap', he also makes another reference to Dickens books later, can't pinpoint it now though. Might try to track it down later. I think it was a reference to Great Expectations, but can't remember at the moment. 

Munro- I love your interpretation of it. The significance of the whole 'catcher in the rye' thing is something else I wanted to discuss.

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## Munro

Holden doesn't "diss" Dickens. I haven't read it and probably won't for a long time to come, but 'David Copperfield' begins with a really long introduction of family pasts and related stories that occurred before the story, it probably goes on for a chapter. So Holden begins the story without a long Dickensian introduction, not necessarily denouncing the novel. Just rejecting it's style.

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## imthefoolonthehill

uh... no... you misunderstood.... he didn't start out with a dickensian introduction... he starts out saying he hates stupidly long introductions like the one in David Copperfield.

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## Zooey

> _Originally posted by imthefoolonthehill_ 
> *I got Catcher in the Rye for Christmas too... and have the same plans... if I can ever get through that *#%&@*(%& Scarlet Letter (Hawthorne)... it is so dry, it could soak up the pacific.*


 Halfway through *Catcher*, but it's competing with two other books (not counting reading for class) for my attention. I'm falling in love with it all over again, though.

I understand and sympathize with you on *Scarlet Letter*. It's tough going, and I realized yesterday it's on the syllabus for one of my classes, so I'll be reading it again later this semester. I think I may enjoy it more now knowing the characters and themes going into it... and I also think Dimesdale (sp?) is one of the most interesting characters in fiction. But hopefully it'll be more, uh, interesting this time.

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## fayefaye

> _Originally posted by imthefoolonthehill_ 
> *uh... no... you misunderstood.... he didn't start out with a dickensian introduction... he starts out saying he hates stupidly long introductions like the one in David Copperfield.*


yeah-exactly. And the problem with Dickens is that he's boring and VERBOSE. (hehe faye's unresolved issues with Dickens)

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## IWilKikU

i like dickens  :Frown:

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## Dick Diver

I avoided Dickens for years, then last summer finally faced up to him. He beat my a$$. No, seriously I doff my cap to him - I love characters like the Aged in Great Expectations, they are very original and very strange. I think that Great Expectations is a masterpiece and SO not boring. He was obviously fettered by the needs of weekly publication and is prone to melodrama - but his reputation is founded on his unique imagination and confirmed by prose like at the end of A Tale Of Two Cities.

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## Koa

> _Originally posted by crisaor_ 
> *I like to find quotes too, but I wasn't referring to that post specifically. Nevermind  .*


Ok i wasnt sure infact...  :Smile: 

I know I underlined some sentences when i read it... I might quote them here but I'd have to translate them roughly...

I love when he says soemthing like 'don't tell anyone anything, otherwise you'd miss everyone'... or something like that...It's so true somehow...

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## Sindhu

> _Originally posted by IWilKikU_ 
> *i like dickens *


 *I LIKE DICKENS!*  :Smile:  
You really can't stand him, can you faye, Catcher is one of my favourite books, but I never picked on the Dickens angle as particularly important! Trust you to spot it! :Wink:

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## fayefaye

hehe. I was teasing kik about dickens earlier-hence the tiny print.  :Smile:  Here, I'll get more quotes for you to devour-
'Certain things they should stay the way they are. You ought to be able to stick them in one of those big glass cases and just leave them alone. I know that's impossible, but it's too bad anyway.'

'Game, my *ss. Some game. If you get on the side where all the hot-shots are, then it's a game, all tight - I'll admit that. But if you get on the _other_ side, where there aren't any hot-shots, then what's a game about it? Nothing. No game.'

I HAVE to ask, do american's REALLY spell goodbye 'good-by'?? THAT'S CRAZY.

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## Munro

> _Originally posted by imthefoolonthehill_ 
> *uh... no... you misunderstood.... he didn't start out with a dickensian introduction... he starts out saying he hates stupidly long introductions like the one in David Copperfield.*


You told me I misunderstood, then backed up exactly what I was saying...your immense wit and insight seems to inverse itself sometimes. 
Read posts more carefully before you refute them.

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## Munro

.

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## fayefaye

I love your sig, munro.

well, we're _already_ off topic.

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## Koa

Have I ever told you that the Italian title of the book is just 'The Young Holden'? There's a note inside explaing the chatcher in the rye thing, but I guess they had no clue of how to translate it in a way that could sound good and have the same effect.

There's a quote I like.... It's towards the end, when Holden is at a teacher's house, I don't remember anything else. Rough translation by me (argh re-translating a translation, I feel like a murderer... I need to put my hands on an original copy, the language must be interesting... in the translation he sounds like comedians on tv shows that try to sound young but are close to be ridicolous...)
"Those who hurl down (??) are not allowed to realise not to feel when they touch the bottom. They just keep on hurling down. This beautiful chance is in the destiny of men who, in some moment of other of their life, looked for something their environment couldn't give them. Or that they thought their environment couldn't give them. So they stopped searching. They stopped before they even really started"

I think I liked it cos when I read the book I was feeling like that: falling down cos I had refused to try and fit in my environment, and I probably gave up before even starting to struggle...

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## fayefaye

GOT IT KOA!! It's one of my faves, too.
here;
'This fall I think you're riding for - it's a special kind of fall, a horrible kind. The man falling isn't permitted to feel or hear himself hit bottom. He just keeps falling and falling. The whole arrangement's designed for men who, at some time or other in their lives, were looking for something their own environment couldn't supply them with. Or they thought their own environment couldn't supply them with. So they gave up looking. The gave up before they ever really even got started.'

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## IWilKikU

> _Originally posted by fayefaye_ 
> *
> I HAVE to ask, do american's REALLY spell goodbye 'good-by'?? THAT'S CRAZY.*


Well, I'm American and I spell it goodbye. I dont think that I've ever seen it spelled like that. But I have seen people spell "See you later", "Cyal8r" so who knows what those crazy Americans will do next.  :Wink:

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## Koa

I've seen british do the cul8r thing, and worse *sighs*

Aww thanks Faye! Wow I'm not that bad as rough translator, if I had dedicated more than 3 minutes to it I might have done a vrey good job  :Wink:

----------


## imthefoolonthehill

fayefaye- is that falling quote from Catcher in the Rye?

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## fayefaye

of course.  :Smile:

----------


## imthefoolonthehill

I read half of it today... haven't got there yet.

got...gotten? haven't read that yet....there we go.

I know I'm posting three times in a row.... but does anyone have any other thoughts on this book?

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## Koa

fool, that quote is towards the end

gotten is American English, got is British. Unless I'm mistaken  :Biggrin:

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## imthefoolonthehill

yeah... I finished it the other day... it wasn't half as good as I remembered it.

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## fayefaye

lol. haven't gotten there yet? nah, that can't be it.  :Smile:  I finished the catcher the same day I bought it, I think that ruins it a bit, because all the syntax gets to you, and all. 

Other than that, holden reminded me a bit of Tom from the Glass menagerie. hmm.... will write more later.

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## IWilKikU

I love reading a whole book in a day. It gives you such a round sence of completion.

----------


## Sindhu

So do I- I try really hard to finish any book in one day unless it is something REALLY impossibble of The War and Peace or Ulysses proportions.It does give a rounded off feeling!

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## fayefaye

I jaywalk like Phoebe. Absolutely mad. Most of the time the cars slow down. Except for this one time when some guy stepped on the gas! Illustrious game of chicken. He/she stepped on the gas, and I stopped walking.  :Tongue:  In the end, they stepped on the breaks, and I ran like anything. I'm such an idiot. I'll get myself killed one day. But the way I figure, THEY are in a car. _I_ have to walk and catch public transport everywhere I go. THEY should wait for ME. Life's too short to stand there by the crossroads, hoping they'll stop. Gotta run, run, run!

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## azmuse

Please don't visit Philly or San Francisco, faye  :Wink:

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## IWilKikU

haha or Bracknell. Once a guy swerved out of a round-a-bout and off the lane part of the road to try and hit me. Than he turned around, went back to the round-a-bout and left in a different direction. What a jerk!

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## Koa

LOL...here they never stop... Crossing a street is becoming the most dangerous task of life. When they do stop I start crossing veeeeeery slooooooowly to piss them off (cos most dont really stop, just slow down- if I'm that slow they eventually have to stop. Until the day they don't ... :Biggrin: ) When I drive I stop to make pedestrians cross, especially if there's a car behind me, again to piss them off: I detest having cars 2 cm behind me, it drives mad!

----------


## imthefoolonthehill

Yep... I hate tailgaters too.... especially on the freeway... I have stopped before on the freeway just because someone is tailgating me.... I slowly slow down... 75...65...55..........35....25......0. I can't wait till I am 21 and can get a conceiled weapons permit... then I can feel a heck of a lot safer when I'm pissing people off.

----------


## fayefaye

lol. freaky s***, fool with a concealed weapons permit.

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## imthefoolonthehill

both my parents have them... i intend on getting one asap ... er... as soon as legally possible... asalp

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## Koa

wow sorry to generalise but that sound so...American. Never ehard of anyone wanting to get a weapon to piss people off when driving here... even if we definitely have roadrage.
I remembered how much I wanted to be 18 to get a driving licence (yep 18 here), to be independant (public transport sucks here, I often had to ask my parents to drive me at friend's houses).
Nothing relevant happens at 21 here, it's just a birthday like all the others. *feels suddenly very old*

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## fayefaye

Stupid constitution. Nothing here about gettting big guns to ring in the new year. I can't tell you how disappointed I am.

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## imthefoolonthehill

lol... I already own several firearms... its just that I can't legally conceil them in my vehicle... so they would have to be in plain view (and could possibly be stolen)... and I just like the security of having Betty Lou next to me... its a good feeling... 

please note it would only be used in defense... and when I get road rage... i get passive aggressive... not aggressive aggressive. :-D

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## Cassandra

Can anyone give me a quick outline of this book. I think I got it but I feel that i missed some of the points the author was trying to make.

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## fayefaye

Fool, I'm scared.  :Smile:  cass, do you have to do an essay on it or something?

----------


## Cassandra

Not really, just curious. I found it really interesting and was just curious.

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## IWilKikU

Read it again. I find that if I pick somthing up myself, its much more rewarding than if someone tells me about it. And don't feel bad. When I finished it I was blown away, but I was also like "uh... what the hell?" So I read it again. Its short enough that you can do that.

Oh yeah, also try searching this forum's archives, because I know that we had a pretty in depth discussion on it a few months ago.

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## Cassandra

Thanks

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## Munro

I want to revive this discussion with a question you've proabably all considered: 

What do you think happened to Holden after the novel? 
I like to think he found some kind of harmony and sense in his world. Other people on the net say his fall didn't end, and he was destined for the bottom.

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## imthefoolonthehill

hmmm... I imagine him working at McDonalds for the rest of his life.... just because that is his sort of luck.

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## IWilKikU

I imagine him surviving life until he becomes one of those increadibly bitter old nursing home men.

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## Munro

You think his talk with Mr. Antolini meant absolutely nothing? I'm sure some of what he said stuck to him. Now I'm starting to think he turned out as a lonely old hobo. 

I used to think that he'd straighten up and find some consolation in some people he'd eventually meet and fit in with. Finally finish school, maybe.

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## fayefaye

I bet he did something good.

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## IWilKikU

I don't think he did. I saw the book more as a warning. Like, "Don't become bitter and unhappy like Holden."

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## fayefaye

No! I saw it like 'You can overcome bitterness and unhappiness' Holden, at the end, doesn't he go back to school? And he talks about how nice it is, sitting there watching Phoebe, like it all worked out.

I had a test today, and I couldn't stop thinking about catcher because '**** YOU ****' was written on the desk in big, fat letters.

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## imthefoolonthehill

I can't see it written and not think about Holden desperately trying to remove it.

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## fayefaye

I tried to rub off the biro, but it was kind of carved into the wood.

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## avid_reader

read it some yrs back .. great read .. esp if you are a high school kid ... the book would touch you (not that it would touch others!)

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## imthefoolonthehill

you mean wouldn't right?

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## y2jazz

wow, i just finished this book 2 weeks ago.

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## fayefaye

your point?

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## imthefoolonthehill

fayefaye's point?

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## emily655321

I read it in 10th grade and hated its guts. Although my friends and I still call each other 'sexy moronic bastards.' Holden was a hypocrite; he didn't like phonies, but he always put on a fake face for everyone. He's an example of one of those hypothetical young men who think they are Napoleons but are actually quite ordinary, to allude to Crime and Punishment.

I don't think he would actually go through with suicide, because his unhappiness was just more like narcissistic bitterness. He's gonna live a bitter, unfulfilled, perfectly ordinary life.

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## fayefaye

he gets over it. wasn't that the point? somewhere along the line he grows up?

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## emily655321

Well, I bought him getting over that spat of whatever-his-problem-was, but he still seemed kinda...out of touch. He didn't get over the "carousel" obsession (you know, some kind of child divinity)... but then, neither did Salinger.

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## EAP

> I read it in 10th grade and hated its guts. Although my friends and I still call each other 'sexy moronic bastards.' Holden was a hypocrite; he didn't like phonies, but he always put on a fake face for everyone. He's an example of one of those hypothetical young men who think they are Napoleons but are actually quite ordinary, to allude to Crime and Punishment.


That's the reason behind my liking it. The book is half choked of ironies. And is fun to read too.

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## Avalive

People've been talking too much about it. Some like it, while the others don't. The votes for every book should only be 2---"Yes"&"No" and nothing can be justice. Reading a book is a personal thing. Enjoy what u like is the point. Farewell comments. 
I like "The Catcher inThe Rye" much, very much...

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## IWilKikU

I see what you're saying Avalive, but this is a literature forum, where people discuss literature, wether or not they like something, and why.

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## Avalive

That's true, Iwillkiku, I see ur point too. There is actually no conflict in this.
And I've jioned this discussion. I've been listenning and ready to be talking.

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## fayefaye

*grinning at kik's avatar and trying to figure out what's on his head* looks like it might be one of those 'hannibal lecter' head things. you know, to stop you going crazy and trying to eat people.  :Smile:

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## simon

The fact that the theme of teenage troubled boy has been so overplayed in recent years took away from the innovativness of the book.

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## IWilKikU

> _Originally posted by fayefaye_ 
> **grinning at kik's avatar and trying to figure out what's on his head* looks like it might be one of those 'hannibal lecter' head things. you know, to stop you going crazy and trying to eat people. *


*Grins back at Faye* Actually there's nothing on my head. Its somthing in the background. I think a wicker chair? Maybe? Anyways, a wicker chair isn't going to stop me from going crazy and eating people. *evil grin*

Anyways, the innovation... yeah... The angsty teenage youth bit is overdone, but I don't think that its ever been done as well as Salinger was able to do it. I've read several books with similar plots, but Catcher is by far the most moving, realistic, well-written, and all around enjoyable of the lot. And it came in the early days of teenage angst literature, so its innovation is there too if you can take yourself back 40 some odd years.

I'm taking a closer look at my avatar and I see that it does need some explination. So here it goes ONLY ONCE!!!! After this, it shall forever remain a mystery. I'm lying on a sofa in the lobby of my dorm, stomach down. My head is in my girlfriends lap, nestled in my dull yellow hoody. Its about 3:30 AM, so that explains the half stoned look on my face. In the background there is a dieing plant. But there is nothing affixed to my head in any way, shape, or form. As I crunched the immage down to fit it into a 50X50 block it sort of squashed the colors together, so thats why I have bright red blotches.

Any questions? 
Too bad.

Thats all I have to say about that!

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## emily655321

LOL I think we should start a thread just to tease kik's avatar in any and every way possible.

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## fayefaye

lol. Oh, absolutely. Hey, kik, the great thing about wicker chairs is, you can use them to knock your prey unconscious, or at least stun them, then move in for the kill.  :Biggrin:  hehe. This is a more amusing conversation than the whole teenage angsty thing.  :Smile: 

[if I ever fix my digital camera (unlikely, technology hates me) I'll stick up a funny avatar and you can have revenge]

well, I read one flew over the cuckoos nest.

I think I like it better than catcher.

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## emily655321

Haven't read Cuckoo's Nest yet. Ooh but for my 16th b-day my mom got me tickets to the Broadway production starring Gary Sinise. Fourth row center....Sinise....hooray. So much better than Jack. Gotta read the book though -- I hate seeing a film/show and not reading the original.

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## simon

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's nest is a classic and a well written book that flows. Start today emily.

I usually read the book before seeing it's movie counterpart too, since the movie version is invariably worse and not well portrayed.

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## amuse

i just saw "x" yes i know it was filmed years ago. but i'd read the book and had no desire to see the movie. well, it was so well done that i was impressed. of course, my boyfriend's sister asked me what i thought of the ending, and i replied "it's a lot different from the book," then i remembered malcolm had written the book - duh!!!  :Rolleyes:  
and recently i saw an *excellent* masterpiece theatre video of _moll flanders._  :Smile:   :Smile:  i'm going to read the book now, because the video was great.

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## Koa

> _Originally posted by simon_ 
> *I usually read the book before seeing it's movie counterpart too, since the movie version is invariably worse and not well portrayed.*


I try to do that too...it feels more 'fair'...

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## fayefaye

I like everything in its original medium. books instead of movies based on books, and movies instead of books based on movies, if that makes sense.

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## emily655321

I find the concept of books based on movies abhorrent. There is of course enough material in a book to condense and cut and generally mutilate into an interesting enough flick, but trying to do it in reverse is like stretching turkey meat. How can the amount of material fitting into 2.5 hours not be LESS valuable when diluted over 300 pages?

Okay, that's my rant  :Tongue:

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## IWilKikU

Does anyone know if Randall Wallace wrote _Braveheart_ the book or _Braveheart_ the movie first?

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## fayefaye

Does anyone want to discuss one flew over the cuckoo's nest?

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## emily655321

> _Originally posted by IWilKikU_ 
> *Does anyone know if Randall Wallace wrote Braveheart the book or Braveheart the movie first?*


A totally uneducated guess, but I assume the movie, because I read "The Scottish Chiefs" and always assumed the movie was based on that. What with the sickening number of times the author uses the phrase "braveheart."

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## Capnplank

'Tis a wonderful book of the hypocrisy of the teenage mind convinced it is one of the few to escape being a cretin. I loved the overused phrases. Haven't any of you had friends that said the same stupid expressions over and over until you wanted to beat them with various parts of their own recently-removed anatomy? A few years back anytime my friend's sister and her friends were around, every other word coming out was "gay". Gay this, gay that, gay you and your gay mother too. Somehow in their minds this repetition never occurred to them though.
Salinger's ability to crack into the habits, mannerisms, and all else of his characters has always impressed me, though like someone else I think I appreciated the Glass stories (like "Seymour: An Introduction") moreso than "Catcher".

And back to the topic of your average 17 year old vocabulary - where I work right now they are grading standardized writing tests for that very age group, and I assure you the lack of written eloquence is somewhat staggering. It varies greatly inside of every little area, but for the most part most students don't seem to have the desire to even try to express themselves in anything other than as few and as short words as possible. Those who do manage to want to voice themselves in say, a place such as this, aren't quite the routine; just as Holden, though he still cannot escape many teenage stereotypes, is not quite the routine... which really does make one typical. 

Anyhoo, I'll have to paraphrase since it's been a few years, but "Liberate yourself from my vice-like grip." stands out in my mind.

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## qxdc

I'm reading this book in my senior class. Along with reading it, I must answer specific questions, analytical questions. But, I don't get this one, check it out.




> Chapter 6: Is Holden secure sexually? Explain. By this time, Holden's red hunting hat has been mentioned repeatedly. Explain some plausible reasons for this and suggest a symbolic interpretations or two.


I read the chapter twice, the word "hat" is only mentioned ONCE, and the sexuality thing seems bogus. Am I wrong? Help me out guys.

Also, if u want to re-red it

http://lib.ru/SELINGER/sel_engl.txt

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## emily655321

qxdx--

Okay, I read Catcher in 10th grade, so I don't remember it in great detail. But the hat/sexuality thing does ring a bell, cause we had loooooong discussions about the symbolism of the stupid hat. It's like his security blanket, so I believe the way it went was: when the flaps are up he's feeling confident, when they're down he's uncomfortable, and when they're fastened under his chin he's really upset. I don't remember how often it was mentioned by chapter 6, but is that the chapter with Sunny the hooker? Or is it when what's-his-name, the sexy bastard roommate, is going on a date with Holden's old girlfriend? I seem to recall something about him suddenly pulling his hat down on his head at some remark about a girl, or when he's approaching a girl... so, no, he's not too confident. I don't want to get into specific situations, because I don't know how far you've gotten in the story, but basically : he needs his security blanket (hat) when he's thinking about sex, and he gets upset when a woman's "honor" is threatened.

Hope that helps.

Em*~

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## qxdc

Yes, thanks! And dont worry about "spoiling" it for me or what ever, I could care less.

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## simon

He's only a boy, he's not sexualy secure, who is at that age?

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## Avalive

Honestly.
It's ridiculous to analyze a novel. I'm not saying anything bad toward this topic or qxdc. Really. I'm very sorry if i'm using any unpleasant words. (smile).But, for one thing Im sure about is that--the writter,himself,might not think about why he writes like that while he was writing. For some points,he didn't even notice himsely, I bet. It's natural. But,many years later, when we read it, we find troubles forourselves--Analyze! .....I don't understand. Nobody can analyze a novel. But, yes, people can talk. Share feelings and attitudes. That's good.

btw: <catcher in the rye> is my all time fav

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## qxdc

Yeah, i think its silly. And our teacher is terrible!

"well, notice how he didn't toss the snowball? this means, he's insecure, ugly, loves nature, has sexual confusion, and the word "snow" rhymes with "no" which he says a lot, this means..."

it's like, uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....

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## Dick Diver

snow rhymes with ho too :Wink:

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## IWilKikU

Ava, there's a difference between analysing and overanalysing. Some analysis is a good thing like the hat bit, reread it and see if Emily is wrong. Real people also have 'security blankets', thats one reason why Holden is easy to relate to. Salinger's strength is in his ability to add minute details like that to give his characters depth and make them more real. I don't think its fair to Salinger to say that he did all that on accident. But the whole snow rhyming bit is a bit out of whack. I said 'bit' way too much in this post.

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## Avalive

> _Originally posted by IWilKikU_ 
> *Ava, there's a difference between analysing and overanalysing. Some analysis is a good thing like the hat bit, reread it and see if Emily is wrong. Real people also have 'security blankets', thats one reason why Holden is easy to relate to. Salinger's strength is in his ability to add minute details like that to give his characters depth and make them more real. I don't think its fair to Salinger to say that he did all that on accident. But the whole snow rhyming bit is a bit out of whack. I said 'bit' way too much in this post.*



Agree...

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## fayefaye

*quiet voice* I'm seventeen.... 

And I do resent these criticisms of people my age group. Just because you're young, it doesn't necessarily mean you're ignorant, illiterate and incapable of expressing yourself, even if I'm a poor example.

[edited for grammar purposes, lol.  :Biggrin: ]

soo.... one flew over the cuckoo's nest??

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## emily655321

True, fayefaye...but, I went to school with 950 other teenagers, and...most of 'em are.  :Tongue: 

OK, CUCKOO'S NEST, PEOPLE -- GO!

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## IWilKikU

with my anylising or that I said 'bit' too much?  :Biggrin: 

Just one more thing to add about teenagers, even though I'm not one anymore  :Frown: . My freshman year of College I peer-edited a paper that had "I be watching football." in it. But I sure as hell didn't write that way. Everybody's different and its perfectly logical for Holden to either sound like a stupid kid, or a poet and a prophet. Hell, I wrote a book when I was 16, and I like to think that it didn't sound like a stupid kid writing. BTW, I really did write a book. I don't talk about it much because either A) people don't believe me, B) people think I'm showing off, or C) people are awe inspired and think I'm some sort of God-creature and that's really uncomfortable. In case you fall under A, here's a link:

http://www.rhpa.org/newproducts/prod...sku=0828013381

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## simon

I'd hardly have the gall to write about my own family.

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## verybaddmom

i have to say, kik, that i am impressed. 
if it were not for your impeccably bad taste in music and some genres of literature, i would elevate you to God status, and fall then into category C. as it is, i think that's pretty cool, and good for you.

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## Avalive

*Smile*

----------


## fayefaye

I don't fall under any of those categories, but clicked on the link for the sake of it, wouldn't work.  :Confused: 

ah, hell. this is too off-topic.

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## emily655321

Kik, I'm most impressed by your perserverence. I can't think as well anymore cause of the meds, but I used to start writing the beginnings (or endings, or middles) of books all the time, but the longest I ever held out on one was about 5 months and 30 pages. (I guess I'm more of what you'd call an "idea woman.") I assure you, my respect continues to climb Mount Kik.  :Biggrin:  (and I mean that in the most innuendo-free manner.)

----------


## fayefaye

lol. I'm tired of all this kik complementing, and not enough faye complementing.  :Biggrin:

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## emily655321

Aww, Faye Faye... poor Faye Faye.  :Biggrin:  *Much complimenting of Faye*

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## ravana

I liked Salinger with "The Cather in the rye". I liked Holden who hates almost every one and every thing. liked his poney language. First read it in my native language, then in English. listened broadcast performense version in Russian. The same thing that I feel was - enjoyment, nothing else. 

What do you think happened to Holden after the novel? 
I can't picture quite. Maybe he did something to be close to Jane.
All the same Jane and his little sister were the ones he loved. 

I,ve read Salinger considered Hemingway and Steinbeck second rate writers but praised Melville. What d'you think about it?

----------


## emily655321

Melville became popular in the 1920's just because no one knew about him, and it grew from an underground cult following into a mainstream movement. Critics are human, too, and jumped on the popularity bandwagon by reviewing it (Moby Dick) favorably, to say the least. Personally, I thought Melville could have used a good editor to cross off two thirds of the tangents he went on, just being self-indulgent and utterly losing track of the story. *thinks* A lot like Holden, actually. And half-page sentences are just bad writing, I'm sorry. I think Salinger was one of those people on the end of the spectrum opposing mass hysteria; instead of liking people because it was popular to like them, he hated people who were popular and liked things just because they happened to be part of "the underground," like Melville. You don't hear people nowadays praising Melville the way they did in Salinger's day. Unfortunately, the masses seem to have collectively willed him into the category with the greats.

Or, I could just be one who shares space at Salinger's end of the aforementioned spectrum. Probably a bit of both.  :Tongue:

----------


## Koa

> _Originally posted by emily655321_ 
> *Kik, I'm most impressed by your perserverence. I can't think as well anymore cause of the meds, but I used to start writing the beginnings (or endings, or middles) of books all the time, but the longest I ever held out on one was about 5 months and 30 pages. (I guess I'm more of what you'd call an "idea woman.") I assure you, my respect continues to climb Mount Kik.  (and I mean that in the most innuendo-free manner.)*


LOL...i started writing books several times... the first time I was 9 I think  :Biggrin:  Well I've only finished a few (3 or 4) short stories, some of them were started one day and finished 2 or 3 years later... That sucks, I wish I had some pervseverance...or better, I wish that ideas could be put on paper through telepathy, without having to write (no way I'd use a computer, believe it or not I hate to type)... so I could just think and then see it done and edit by thinking... I guess I'm a desperate case of laziness  :Biggrin:

----------


## amuse

em, i read your post, and thought not of melville but hawthorne - and though it's morning could feel my brain falling back asleep... lol  :Biggrin:

----------


## emily655321

[email protected] I read over my post to see what you meant, and uh yah that's true hehe. I've already caught the proverbial second-wind awakeness-wise (how delightful) about three times since yesterday evening, and I'm starting to go dizzy. I'm afraid what happens when I'm this tired is the prefrontal and glazzballs get some swelling and I sit like a zombie while my fingers start flying and my thesaurus-brain just kinda spills out all over the keyboard. And I ramble like this  :Biggrin:  Great for poetry, not so good for communication. Sorry.

----------


## amuse

oops, em! i didn't mean you put me to sleep like hawthorne (or rambled like faulkner  :Frown:   :Frown: ) i meant melville reminded me of him.

----------


## emily655321

Oh LOL. Well, I've been told that before so I guess I assumed. Yeah, I agree with you there too. Seems like another case of critics stamping something wordy with an "A+" because they're afraid they don't understand it -- Emperor's New Clothes complex.

----------


## random_hero

Wow, looking at GMT it is pretty early, 4 AM. Wow. Anyway, I would like to say that everything about that books seems to be a statement of F-U to society. maybe Im wrong, but the language may be an outlet for that rebellion. There was, if I remember correctly, alot of controversy over the book, so maybe that was the purpose. Oh yeah, and Im 18, but at sixteen I was nothing like Holdon (or however you spell his name) was. Or 17. And I like the idea of illiterate brits. Its encouraging when you live in a land of people who worship literary greats like Eminem and Tupac and Slipknot... *sarcasm*

----------


## amuse

ah, but there are american brits who like tupac.
but they may also appreciate brautigan, tolstoy, twain (because of his wit and the shared b-day) and a host of others.

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## emily655321

ROFLMAO you are, as Kik once said, "a little bitty drunked," aren't you az?  :Biggrin:

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## amuse

if i drank i would be. i get punchy this time o' night for some reason.  :Biggrin:

----------


## emily655321

LOL. It's quarter of midnight here. My brain's just beginning to wake up -- I won't be punchy till at least 5am.  :Biggrin:

----------


## amuse

me too! and usually wide awake until 3  :Biggrin:  but tonight am sort of foggy brained.  :Eek:

----------


## imthefoolonthehill

Fayefaye... I had no idea you were my age... I imagined you in college already. 

anyways.. yeah, like I'm like in uh... High school man, and I'm like 17, and I, dude ya know have a uh... whaddyacallit ... big vocabulary, man uheh heh heh....

seriously... I know big words... antidisenstablishmentarianism.... SO THERE HA!!!!

:-D I do admit that about 50% of my classmate's creative writing starts out with "it was a dark and stormy night" or "I felt scared as I walked into the gloomy house" ... but to bash our collective vocabulary is to insult your future employers.... ... ... ... it must be getting late or something so.... one more big word.... Hunnuhhunnanakua. yeah... I can't spell... but thats some sort of Hawaiian fish we had to learn about.

----------


## fayefaye

Fool, at least PRETEND to be articulate.  :Smile: 

A huge proportion of my peers are somewhat ... *cough* WELL..... But that still doesn't justify the statement 'it's ok.... sixteen year old's vocabulary. They're all pretty dumb'

----------


## emily655321

Is that what this was all about? I wasn't quite following. Why does Holden have to be an example of one of the articulate ones? It doesn't mean he was supposed to represent the best and the brightest, or even the norm. Just one individual teenager, who I guess happened to have less-than-stellar communication skills.

----------


## fayefaye

What's interesting is when it works the other way-people assume that if you use big words you're pretentious. I nearly wiped out 'prima facie' from an essay because I didn't want to come across as grandiloquent, and took 'elucidate' out for the same reason. And then you see people who use words all the time just to sound smart... it's kinda funny.

*smiling at use of word 'grandiloquent' in a post about wordiness*

wait a second... *I* use words!!  :Eek:

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## 5Parker

Simple... he's a dude feeling insecure. Imagine that, an insecure teenager. Freud might say a simple security blanket complex. Red hat = feel more stable sexually. It's like that in all he does. Trying to prove himself to the world as well as to the reader. He doesn't have it all together, and the beauty of the book is... who does?

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## atreides

I got it! the red hat means he is gay! he is expressing it through the bright, inappropriate colour and style of his hat.

j/k

seriously though, there is nothing like highschool english classes to destroy good books and make you hate them forever, or until you get older and start to appreciate them a little more. I just despise overanalyises. How many times has Lord of the Rings been analysed, when its basically just a great story?

----------


## Nemi

I know this thread seems a bit on the dead side, but i really didnt want to start a new one...

Anyway, I've just read catcher in the rye, after a friiend got it for my birthday. First thing my dad said when he saw it was "great book to slit your wrists to".

I think I missed something, because I didnt find it depressing at all. He's just an average, whiney, arrogant teenager, who can't accept responsibility. He observes the world with one eye shut - unable to see that theres other angles to actions, and never seems to consider his own actions or longer consequences. I have no sympathy for him, and I would put his acting at 13 rather than 16. The events etc. arent depressing, they're just BORING.

(I write this as an eighteen year old, if you're wondering)

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## Starkiller0613

I know I'm new here and I hate to have this be my first post, but I have to write an exploratory essay explaining my final paper for my lit theory class and I'm reading The Catcher in the Rye. I've decided to look at it through New Historicist theory, but I'm not really sure exactly under that theory I should write about. I think I want to talk about the issue of marginalization. I also have to give a textual example that supports my reading. So I'm sort of stuck. I need a good textual example and to be able to say what I want the paper to do. I think if I had a good example that I could easily do the rest. I just can't think of anything. I'm getting close to the deadline...it's at 12am. I have to e-mail it in. Please help.

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## amuse

i've never read catcher in the rye, but in case anyone has and wants to help you, what time zone are you in? because here it's 71 minutes to midnight but if it isn't for you -

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## Starkiller0613

I'm in the eastern timezone.

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## elysium

Sorry, but I have no idea if you missed the deadline already or not. However, I read Catcher in the Rye last year, and coincedentally just re-read it last weekend and wrote a bit about it for a column. Did you have anything particular you wanted help with? Sorry if I missed you, I just joined about five seconds ago.

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## IWilKikU

New Historicist theory isn't going to help you a bit with somthing written so recently.

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## Razeus

> i've never read catcher in the rye, but in case anyone has and wants to help you, what time zone are you in? because here it's 71 minutes to midnight but if it isn't for you -


You really should read Catcher in The Rye. You won't spend forever with it...I did in 3 days.

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## Starkiller0613

Sorry I haven't replied in a while. I've been busy studying for finals. I didn't miss the deadline. I pulled enough out of my butt to get by. The problem now is that I have to do my final paper on the book. What I need help with is putting my ideas together and just the paper in general. I'm still using New Historicism to look at the text, but now I'm looking at language and communication. 

The purpose of my final paper is to explore the issues of language and communication in The Catcher in the Rye through New Historicism. By doing so, I hope to draw some comparisons to those aspects of our society today and to also explore how the book has shaped certain texts and ideals since its publication. I think I can accomplish this through looking at how Holden communicates throughout the book and the language he uses to communicate, as well as how the story itself is written to communicate its ideas in connection with its time period. I would then look at how that communication was received by the reading audience and how the interpretations of those messages have in turn influenced our culture. Thus, it is possible for some interesting conclusions to be drawn about how it was shaped by its time and how it has shaped the future.

I need to address the significance of the argument that I'm making. I also need to answer questions like (1)What does such a reading add to our understanding of the novel? (2)Does it challenge, support, change some structure within society? (3)Does it reveal some hidden agenda, uncover some latent element? 

I'm supposed to consider why I think this reading is important and what I see it doing in terms of opening up the text to alternative understandings of history, language, communication, and narrative.

My final paper has to be turned in on May 9th before 5:00PM just to let you know what kind of time I'm working with. I have the intro part done, but the rest is coming really slow I also suck at finding good sources so I need help with that too.

I know thats alot, but this has been a rough semester for me and my mind is just killing me. I need major help and I would appreciate any that you could offer. Thanks everyone.

----------


## amuse

if you post the material you've written already for this paper, that might help.

i'm on the same time crunch as you, well more so - paper on _Coming of Age in Mississippi_, due monday at noon, starting on it tonight.

well, good luck with this! and perhaps we'll see you in other parts of the forum as well?

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## sp00ky

Well I had to write this big essay about The Catcher in the Rye. My question to answer was why the story was so endearing. So for my answer, I wrote that youths today can relate to Holden Caulfield as he struggles through life picking the wrong paths. I'm done everything except for a creative title for the essay. Can anyone help me with a good creative title?

----------


## kilted exile

I aint great at titles but how about "keep on holden on"

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## metaxy99

hmmm...of course it would have to fit your paper, 
but i always loved the ducks.
how about something straightforward like 'i wonder where the ducks go...'
or something outlandish and ironic (ie pseudo-academic) like 'ducks on the pond: the creative errancy of holden caufield'
or how about a playful one like 'ducking the bastards' 
ok, i might be getting carried away...

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## Basil

"Catcher in the Wry: The Unique Perspective of Holden Caufield"

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## sp00ky

lol those are all good ideas. Thanks guys :Smile:

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## mono

> "Catcher in the Wry: The Unique Perspective of Holden Caufield"


I like this one.  :Nod:

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## Scorpionwingz

This is one of my top five greatest books of all time. Please add a discussion here about the book.

thanks,

Fenton

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## Jay

You might get more replies in General Literature, this section is for requesting books to be added to the archive. Also if you'd have any questions or a certain topic in mind you'd like to discuss (ie something less general than the whole book to get a discussion started) it might help, for example 'what do you think about this-and-that from the book'?
Your thread might be moved to the above mentioned link in case you can't find it here.

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## Scheherazade

I (finally) read _The Catcher in the Rye_ yesterday; I liked it very much but it left me with mixed feelings and thoughts. There is no doubt that, in Holden, Salinger has created a memorable character but do you like him? Are we _supposed_ to like him? I could not help thinking that Holden is a bundle of contradictions. Throughout the novel, he criticise others for being 'phoney' but isn't he just like anyone else? His simple refusal to 'grow up' and take responsibility for his own actions are not the real issues? 

As for the imagery in the book...

Does the 'red hat' stand for his desire to be different?

He often looks out of the window... Is that a symbol that he is not willing to take part in 'real life' but rather be an outsider, a spectator?

I love the image of 'catcher in the rye'... beautiful. However, Phoebe says that the actual poem is If a body meet a body, coming through the rye. What is the significance of this?

There are so many things I would like to talk about this book if there is someone who is not fed up already and still willing!  :Biggrin: 

*edit*

I was reminded of _On the Road_ while reading this book although I am not sure why.

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## fayefaye

Of course he's a bundle of contradictions; he's human.

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## mono

Out of every novel I have read, J.D. Salinger's _The Catcher In The Rye_ I consider one of the books that got me so interested in literature.
As you both mentioned, Scher and fayefaye (welcome back, by the way  :Wink: ), Holden Caulfield, I think, Salinger intended on sounding confusing and self-contradicting. I have seen this novel very often compared to William Golding's _The Lord Of The Flies_, since both involve a young adolescent (or adolescents) growing, gaining independence, making choices, and forming a concept of self-reliance. Of course, Holden attempts turning back again many times to his family (especially Phoebe, his younger sister), but with no help.



> Does the 'red hat' stand for his desire to be different?


I think I will have to review the book again for this question.  :Biggrin: 



> He often looks out of the window... Is that a symbol that he is not willing to take part in 'real life' but rather be an outsider, a spectator?


I noticed this also, while reading the book, and agree with your idea, Scher. I feel that Holden does desire to "take part in 'real life,' " but feels the need to gain influence from others, relying on his surroundings. Young children (younger than Holden) learn very well common tasks of living by observing and imitating others around them, often their parents or caretakers; somehow, in Holden's development, he frequently tries to gain influence, feeling, in a way, fearful of too much independence.



> I love the image of 'catcher in the rye'... beautiful. However, Phoebe says that the actual poem is If a body meet a body, coming through the rye. What is the significance of this?


I absolutely loved the character, Phoebe; her wit and almost sage-like intelligence for someone her age amazed me, for a fictional character. To me, Holden wanted to seem a kind of savior for other lost adolescents, wanting no one else to fall into that apparent "phoney" oblivion he labeled so often, so that when people "fell" from that comfort in childhood that seems to disappear with the confusing adolescence, he wanted to "catch" them.

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## fayefaye

I have a cousin just like Phoebe. I love her to bits  :Smile:  (and i'm trying to mould her in my image, MWAHAHAHA)

hmm.. I'm probably quite weak on the analysis of catcher... I read it a couple of years ago. For me, I tend to look out of windows a lot when my mind starts to wander and I reflect ont he world. Maybe holden does the same thing? (Whilst simultaneously trying to escape reality, if that makes sense?)

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## Scheherazade

> Of course he's a bundle of contradictions; he's human.


Thanks for the insight! 


> I have seen this novel very often compared to William Golding's The Lord Of The Flies, since both involve a young adolescent (or adolescents) growing,


This is an interesting point... Though I wouldn't get carried away with this comparison as the children (yes, they _are_ children; no more) in TLOTF are forced into isolation from the adult world, 'grow up', take responsibilities. Holden, on the other hand, tries to isolate himself from the adult world willingly, and resists the necessity of 'growing up' and taking responsibilities although he is old enough to do these. Interestingly, he does not mind being 'grown up' when it comes to drinking or getting Sunny into his room. He often claims he is older than he is throughout the book when it suits him. 


> To me, Holden wanted to seem a kind of savior for other lost adolescents, wanting no one else to fall into that apparent "phoney" oblivion he labeled so often, so that when people "fell" from that comfort in childhood that seems to disappear with the confusing adolescence, he wanted to "catch" them.


I agree with your intrepretation of the title, Mono. However, my question was that Holden remembers the poem as 'a body catches in the rye'. Later on Phoebe reminds him that the actual poem is: If a body meet a body, coming through the rye. It isn't 'catch' but 'meet'; what is the significance of misquote?

Here is the actual poem:

*Coming Through The Rye*  
by Robert Burns 

Coming thro' the rye, poor body,
Coming thro' the rye,
She draiglet a' her petticoatie
Coming thro' the rye.

O, Jenny's a' wat, poor body;
Jenny's seldom dry;
She draiglet a' her petticoatie
Coming thro' the rye.

Gin a body meet a body
Coming thro' the rye,
Gin a body kiss a body - 
Need a body cry?

Gin a body meet a body
Coming thro' the glen,
Gin a body kiss a body - 
Need the warld ken?

It is interesting that even though Holden associates this with children and his desire to stop them from falling into the adult world, the actual poem has a sexual connotation.

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## faith

I read Cather in the rye, and totally loved it! All thou I read it for school, I never went as deep in my analyze as u do... I just loved both Holden and Phoebe. They were so symphatetic. Holden might have been 'phoney', but that was what was so lovely about him. *just must comment*

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## mono

> I agree with your intrepretation of the title, Mono. However, my question was that Holden remembers the poem as 'a body catches in the rye'. Later on Phoebe reminds him that the actual poem is: If a body meet a body, coming through the rye. It isn't 'catch' but 'meet'; what is the significance of misquote?


Like faith, having read it in high school, I suppose I never noticed the misquote. And, though I knew Salinger based the quote on a poem, I have never read the whole poem; thanks for posting it, Scher.  :Wink: 



> *Coming Through The Rye*  
> by Robert Burns 
> 
> Coming thro' the rye, poor body,
> Coming thro' the rye,
> She draiglet a' her petticoatie
> Coming thro' the rye.
> 
> O, Jenny's a' wat, poor body;
> ...


I agree with you, Scher, that the poem does seem to have a slight sexual connotation, though Robert Burns does not seem like the easiest poet to read.  :Biggrin: 
In the comparison of the misquote from "catch" to "meet," perhaps Phoebe more insists Holden that he cannot save his fellow "fallen" adolescents, but must aide them more passively, as cliché as it sounds. This might also point out that Holden may desire to remain stagnant in this stage to adulthood to help others, maybe out of fear for what lies beyond the "rye."

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## Scheherazade

New quizes on JD Salinger and _Catcher_ have been added to the Forum:

http://www.online-literature.com/for....php?quizid=30

http://www.online-literature.com/for....php?quizid=28

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## samercury

Catcher in the rye is one of the few books that I keep reading over and over without getting bored and everytime I read it, I learn soemthing new. Holden is a very interesting character yet, he keeps contradicting himself. He says that everyone around him is phony-yet, he is so much like them that if he didn't some really nice things sometimes, you would think that he is one of 'them'

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## queenrah

> I love the image of 'catcher in the rye'... beautiful. However, Phoebe says that the actual poem is If a body meet a body, coming through the rye. What is the significance of this?


Holden is absolutely terrified of growing up, hence his apparent fear of being sexually attracted to women. This said, the significance is the original poem by Robert Burns is actually about sex. It's basically Salinger being ironic and showing Holden to be a child.

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## Mark F.

Holden's contradiction are the whole points of the character. Throughout the novel he points out things he doesn't like about people but that he also does. I wouldn't call him a hypocrite because I believe he realizes this, he's just growing up and having the same difficulties as everyone. I love the part where he pretends he has a bullet in his guts, then again there are so many other similar parts when he fools around (the talk about the suitcases...). I also think his admiration for Phoebe, Allie and D.B. his touching

What do you think about his teacher-friend, Mr Antolini? I don't know weather to like him or not, what his intentions were...etc

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## mono

> What do you think about his teacher-friend, Mr Antolini? I don't know weather to like him or not, what his intentions were...etc


I loved Mr. Antolini; he seemed a teacher who went far above and beyond his expectations as more of a mentor than a formal teacher. Holden obviously thinks highly of him, seeing him as a "non-phoney" and noncomformist; but Mr. Antolini offers Holden a new perspective for committing to school, and doing well - not to impress others, or "get a slice of the American pie," so to speak, but merely for himself.
That some readers interpret Mr. Antolini's manner as sexual with his gestures, I cannot agree with; like Holden, Antolini has his own faults (like alcoholism), and I saw his physical gestures more as almost father-like, exaggerated by a common teenager's fear of homosexuality.

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## Mark F.

I also saw the gest as a fatherly one, maybe at the time the novel was written their was antagonism towards homosexuality. The other teacher he visits at the beginning (the elderly one) is also a fatherly figure. I see what you mean about Mr Antolini as a teacher. I feel his intentions are good but can't help identifying to Holden's fears.

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## Scheherazade

> Holden is absolutely terrified of growing up, hence his apparent fear of being sexually attracted to women. This said, the significance is the original poem by Robert Burns is actually about sex. It's basically Salinger being ironic and showing Holden to be a child.


I was thinking about this and I wondered whether Salinger is being more than ironic here; maybe expressing a quite pessimistic view? Something Holden comes up with to 'save' children actually has sexual connotations. Sex is one of the sure signs of growing up; somewhat a loss of innocence. By this twist, I thought, Salinger might be trying to show that there is no escape (for Holden) or way to 'save' (children). 

With all this focus on growing up, Holden is the only person who is really childish in the book. Phoebe talks and acts much more maturely than Holden does; all the other teens seem very much interested in sex while Holden just feigns an interest in it (although he thinks a lot about it).




> What do you think about his teacher-friend, Mr Antolini? I don't know weather to like him or not, what his intentions were...etc


I, like you Mark, am not sure how I feel about this character. I am not sure what Antolini's intentions were when he stroked Holden's hair but I don't think he was overstepping some boundries. I think there are some suggestions that he might be gay (if you would like to interpret them that way): he is not a conservative or conventional type; he is married to an older, well-off woman... However, I think the whole incident is about Holden and Antolini's sexuality is kind of irrelevant: he is unsure about his sexuality (surprise, surprise) like he is unsure about anything else about himself. Is Holden worried that he might be gay (because his relationships with the girls are not 'successes' as we see in the book) so gets very upset by Antolini's gesture? 

I thought Holden's reaction to Antolini's gesture was typical of him: even though he has been one person he could really talk to and gave him sound advice he could relate to, Holden did not hesitate to get away from him when he suspects that Antolini might have a flaw.

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## jamie

I am (half-way) through reading it. It's slightly dull.

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## Scatterbrain

I have very mixed feelings towards this book
I still don't know what to think, really
A part of me thought it was fantastic, even "one of my favourite books" worthy
But then on the other hand...I don't know

I think I might have to read it again to decide

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## Sunflower05

Hello guys!
How are you doing? At the moment im writing up an important paper for my literature class on the Bell Jar and Catcher in the Rye. However im having some difficulty with some parts of the essay which i thought id share with you and would appreciate any help or ideas, little or large! 
Well looking at both of the novels we can see that the authors have chosen adolescent protganists. Holden in catcher in the rye and Esther in the Bell jar. My question is to see why the authors have chosen to use adolescence as their protaginists? Why have them as the main storyteller expressing their views through teenagers? As the books are about teenagers growing up and making the tansaction to adulthood but why do they present adolescence?? Any ideas would be soooo grateful and appreciated!!! Thank you!
From Sunflower! xx

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## genoveva

That's a good question! Maybe they were writing for the 'young adult' audience? Maybe they wanted the teenager to be a symbol of transformation?

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## Sunflower05

Hey!
Yeah thats what i thought and wrote on that they were purposely aiming for the younger audiences and showing that the transcation from childhood to adulthood is a huge step! BUt i was thinking why not use an adult protaginist speaking from experience? Or is it because they are the 'phonies'?? Would it be different if it was an adult? Im sorry i know im asking quite ambigious questions but this paper is for my final grade! :S 
Thanks again for reply! And i welcome any new ones!!
Sunflower.xx

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## genoveva

> why not use an adult protaginist speaking from experience?


I don't think teenagers relate as well to adult experiences (even in reflection) as they would to another teenager. Teenagers are much more influenced (generally) by their own peers than by what they may consider an authority figure. My opinion.

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## emily655321

First, hi Sunflower.  :Smile: 

Second, I think the word you're looking for is "transition," not "transaction."

Third, I'm not sure what Salinger had in mind, but Sylvia Plath was writing a thinly-disguised autobiography, and those things really did happen to her when she was nineteen. So, in her case, it was just a matter of recounting personal history.

That doesn't mean the theme of "adolescent protagonists" can't be a valuable one. I think if you ask "how" instead of "why," you'll find some of the answers, and possibly some good questions, tooas in, "How have I, as a young adult, been affected by the age of these characters? How would I have reacted to them had they been ten years older? How does society (in the book) treat these characters? How would they be treated if they were having these problems at an older age? _Would_ they be having the same problems if they were older? Are the issues in the book inherently adolescent in nature, or do older people experience them, too? If so, how does an older person's experience with depression/whatever-Holden's-problem-was differ from that of a younger person's? If not, why not? Exactly what _are_ the problems that these characters experience, anyway?" (That last one should probably have come first.)

And so on.

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## Virgil

This is just a comment on novels of adultlescence, not specific to _Catcher in the Rye_ or _The Bell Jar_. The reason I think they are so interesting and common is becuase of the inherent situaton of a person undergoing a rite of passage. The situaton then is inherent with tension and conflict.

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## Sunflower05

Thank you for your replies and i will definatly take them into account. Yeah i see what you mean, with writing about the bell jar it is Plath's autobiographical account so i can see why she has chosen to present adolescence. I will just mostly work on Salinger, any ideas if this too was how he was when he was young? I know that he did become a recluse afterwards? Any ways thank you for your help!  :Nod:

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## hii

can anyone think of some songs that would fit the book "the catcher in the rye?" songs can relate to themes, symbols, messages, etc.

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## kimpossible

just wondering, but why do you need these songs?

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## Basil

Mark David Chapman, the man who killed John Lennon, perceived connections between Lennon's music and Catcher in the Rye. Compare the chorus of "Watching the Wheels" with the final scene of Holden watching Phoebe on the carousel:

_I'm just sitting here watching the wheels go round and round
I really love to watch them roll
No longer riding on the merry-go-round
I just had to let it go_

Apparently, there is an audio file of Chapman reciting the lyrics to this song.

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## ShoutGrace

> Mark David Chapman, the man who killed John Lennon, perceived connections between Lennon's music and Catcher in the Rye.


Does that have to do with why he shot him? Why did he do that, btw?

The assasin was also carrying a copy of the book when he shot Lennon, right? Was there a connection he made between the two, other than the music?

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## blp

_The Boy with the Thorn in his Side_ - The Smiths

_Spring_ - The Rites of Spring

_Out of Step with the World_ - Minor Threat

_Creep_ - Radiohead

_Mis-shapes_ - Pulp

_Teenage Depression_ - Eddie and the Hotrods

_Dark Globe_ - Syd Barrett

_Is This It?_ - The Strokes

_Meaningless_ - The Magnetic Fields

_Insitutionalised_ - Suicidal Tendencies

_What a Boring Life_ - The Slits

_Why Don't You Shoot Me_ - The Subway Sect

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## rabid reader

"Working Class Hero" the song responcible for Lennon being blasted

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## blp

_In My Life_ - The Beatles

_Everybody's Happy Nowadays_ and _Boredom_ - The Buzzcocks

_After Hours_, _Sunday Morning_ and _Beginning to See the Light_ - The Velvet Underground

_Mongoloid_ - Devo

_It's Alright Ma, I'm Only Bleeding_, _Ballad of a Thin Man_ and _Subterranean Homesick Blues_ - Bob Dylan

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## Petrarch's Love

There's always the song that inspired the book's title, Robert Burn's "Comin' Through the Rye. There's a link here that has both the words and a sound clip with the melody (it's not the greatest rendition, but it'll give you the idea).

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## mono

This seems like a very interesting question, and I can hardly think of anything that would match the uniquity of _The Catcher In The Rye_, though I may recommend almost any melancholic song by Radiohead (which consists of almost all of their songs), possibly from Velvet Underground, or maybe some of the popular works by Depeche Mode.  :Nod:

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## us183sub4

i teach the book to my junior american lit class, and these are some of the songs i use. some of the connections are obvious, some are more of a stretch...and it may be a longer list than you were looking for!

After Midnight J.J. Cale 
All The Young Dudes Mott The Hoople	
Another Lonely Day Ben Harper	
Baba O'Riley The Who 
Behind Blue Eyes The Who
Catcher, Call Me Holden Summer Always End
changes David Bowie 
Circle Of Life (Elton John) Elton John & Tim Rice
coming through the rye Cyrus Chestnut	
Crazy Patsy Cline 
Creep (acoustic) Radiohead 
Days Of Our Lives The Blue Nile
Dear God XTC
Epiphany Staind 
ether Nothingface 
express yourself Charles wright 
Holden Caulfield Piebald 
I Am Holden Caulfield The Contingency Plan
I Wrote Holden Caulfield Screeching Weasel	
I'm One The Who 
IHateMyselfAndWantToDie Nirvana 
Individual Bad Religion 
Loser Beck 
Mad World Gary Jules 
Magna Cum Nada Bloodhound Gang 
Marked Bad Religion 
My Generation The Who 
Outside Staind 
Reach for the Sky Social Distortion 
rebel rebel David Bowie 
Rock N Roll Woman Holden Caulfield (304)
sleeping_awake pod 
Smoke Gets In Your Eyes The Platters 
story of my life good charlotte 
Story of My Life Loretta Lynn 
Story Of My Life Social Distortion
Take The Long Way Home Supertramp 
teenage desperation Loudermilk 
The Handshake Bad Religion 
The Kids Aren't Alright The Offspring	
The Story Of My Life Neil Diamond 
Turn! Turn! Turn! (To Everthing There Is A Season) The Byrds
Unwell Matchbox Twenty 
Who Wrote Holden Caulfield? Green Day	
Will The Circle Be Unbroken The Carter Family
William Holden Caulfield Too Much Joy 
Won't Get Fooled Again The Who 
young americans David Bowie 
Youth Of The Nation POD
seven nation army white stripes

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## SpecteR

I thought it was a great quick, easy read. It is definately a book I would read again.

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## Miss Smilla

I would have to completely agree with 'Mad World'. I know there are 2 versions of it though. I'm not sure who does which, but (for once) the original is a load of trollop and the cover turns the song into something glorious and thought provoking. You'll find it on the soundtrack to the movie 'Donnie Darko'. IF you don't know it already you must check it out!

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## smoothherb

I would agree with whoever said creep and I think all aplogies by nirvana I know it's a contradiction but I think the lyrics kinda link with the book I know writeing this makes me look stupid but I always think of holden when I hear it.

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## mono

> I would have to completely agree with 'Mad World'. I know there are 2 versions of it though. I'm not sure who does which, but (for once) the original is a load of trollop and the cover turns the song into something glorious and thought provoking. You'll find it on the soundtrack to the movie 'Donnie Darko'. IF you don't know it already you must check it out!


Tears For Fears did the original version, I believe, and Gary Jules did a revised version for the film _Donnie Darko_.

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## larimausi

Hey guys.

I have to write an english test in two days, and I have to answer some questions, and I'm stuck with two of them: Chapter 25: What does he feel threatened by? What happened last Christmas, i. e. whats going to happen just after Christmas? You would save my life by answering them. Thanks a lot.

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## sumalan monica

Like many other heroes,Holden Caulfield is an example of a young ,though shy young teenager who is in search for his own system of values,and identity.He is easily hurt by the luck of love and endowed with a great sensitivity that makes him fully realize and remember any significance of certain things,which pass unnoticed by most people.HiS attempt to find a new home in the adult world,beyond the limits of his adolescent experience,may be compared to an odyssey,a spiritual journey ,full of tests and dangers

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## dramasnot6

What are YOUR thoughts larimausi? MAybe if you share some of your ideas we can help you structure them rather than give the "answers" away. Literature isnt like math, it has many right answers.

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## Matrim Cuathon

this was the most hated book ever! we ahd to do so much **** for it in lit class. and it wasnt that good.

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## JGaoiran

Has anyone read The Catcher in the Rye by JD Salinger?

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## barbara0207

Hi, JGaoiran,
yes, I've read it. Great book. But it's been such a long time ago that I think I'll reread it in the summer holidays. Thanks for the suggestion. 

PS: Is it true that it's banned in some US school libraries on the grounds of language?

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## THX-1138

> PS: Is it true that it's banned in some US school libraries on the grounds of language?


yes it was 

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/bannedbookslist.html

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## JGaoiran

I'm REEEALLY stuck on theme. Why would Salinger write this?? WHAT IS THE PURPOSE!! My analysis is due tomorrow and.. well.. i have NOTHING.

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## THX-1138

try spark notes.com it is great

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## barbara0207

Thank you very much for the link, THX-1138. It was very informative - and shocking. To think that some major work of literature are on that list seems unbelievable. I think I'll open a thread on banned books.

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## Ineverland

Sorry if this reply is a bit sketchy. I'm not quite sure myself. 

As far as I know J.D Salinger was fairly sociable when he was younger. He was sent to military academy at a young age but got on well with people. I think he suffered from Post traumatic stress after serving in the war and that could have caused a lot of isolation later on in life. There's a part of the book where Holden feels as if he is drifting away when he's walking down the street. That is one of the symptoms of PTSD so it could be related to his experiences with that. Salinger himself really hated ''phoneys'' and he could apparently empathise with teenagers more because he thought of them as more honest. This reply is a bit rubbish I'm afraid. If you want to know more then you could read his biography or his daughter's book; Dream Catcher: A Memoir. It's very interesting!  :Smile:

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## amarie3o3o3

> I'm supposed to be comparing existentialism and the importance of individuality in Catcher and 1984, I'm completely stuck. Anyone have any ideas?



the first part i'm not so sure .. but the individualism part i think i can answer... well holden in the novel is being alienated, and alienating him self. And the reason is because he tries so hard at first to conform, not be and individual , that he is being pushed away. That and the fact that he is not yet ready to be an adult. So acting so is causing others to alienate him. And those who do so he calls phonies.

I have to explain how setting plays a significant role, and how the city setting contributes to the theme. I have a few ideas but not enough to develop and entire essay. Any ideas?

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## barbara0207

As you said in the other thread, Holden is not ready to be an adult. And so it seems to me that - although NY is his home - he feels somewhat lost in this city, as lost as he feels concerning his existence. No place like the big, anonymous city to get lost in - and lonely. There are rather few friends he can turn to, and those he calls rather turn out not to be such good friends after all (Sally, Mr Antolini). The only one he can rely on is a child (Phoebe). 
The time and the weather are important, too, I think. It's around Christmas, and if I remember right there is a lot of rain, which may add to his depression. 

Hope I could give you a few ideas. For details I'd have to think harder...  :Smile:

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## amarie3o3o3

Thanks that did help a lot.. I'm really not sure how to work this site... i found it on google. But thanks and if you come up with anymore let me know... I'll find it somehow

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## barbara0207

> Thanks that did help a lot.. I'm really not sure how to work this site... i found it on google. But thanks and if you come up with anymore let me know... I'll find it somehow


Why don't you bookmark the site? That's the fastest way to get here again. And for all other questions - you can always ask the mods or other members.

Concerning the Catcher: What are your own ideas? Have you got any special questions?

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## amarie3o3o3

well i understand the whole catcher analogy. I took the cliff he's trying to save the children from falling off of as a symbol of catching them before they fall into adulthood. He shows this also when he's walking through New York and states that when he steps off a curb he's scared he will infinantly fall. So that made me think that falling to him is the transition into adulthood which he fears. And towards the end in the museum he says he pictures himself catching the person who graffitied "**** you" on the walls and punishing them himselves... But I'm stuck on the setting prompt

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## barbara0207

Yes, very good thoughts so far. And he feels depressed and lonely in the big city, as lost as he feels in the adult world. He makes a few attempts to behave like a "man" (the prostitute, trying to buy alcoholic drinks). But more often than not he is let down by the adult world (waiters who do not give him alcohol, Maurice) or by himself (he does not have intercourse with the prostitute). All that and his wish to get away from the city and get a job somewhere and live in a cabin show that he is not yet mature enough to enter the adult world. But he learns, and especially his little sister makes him feel his responsibility. There is a key scene at the end of the book. He refuses to have a ride on the carrousel in the park, and he watches Phoebe riding in the pouring rain. He knows now that living as a deaf-mute, i.e. without any social contacts, without having to communicate with the adult world, is not a solution. 

If you have further questions, just ask.  :Smile:

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## Mr. Dr. Ralph

I don't think Holden wants to enter the adult world at all. The setting seems to be a perfect example of a place where money talks and scumbags satisfy their vices. He feels lost because he isn't as selfish as everyone else and would rather go out west than continue torturing himself by staying near it. The attempts to "behave like a man" are more like last ditch efforts to curb his misery. His wish to move and eventually doing it is not a sign of immaturity; he left because he can't bring himself to work for money and make friends with people he doesn't like.

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## barbara0207

He doesn't leave after all. He stays and matures.

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## novelsryou

> He doesn't leave after all. He stays and matures.


New to the forum and I'd like to say I've been enjoying it very much. 

The reason I'm here is I was looking for someone to discuss The Catcher In The Rye with. My main concern is his whereabouts while he is relating the story. 

You say he didn't leave but the first and last pages lead me to believe he had some kind of breakdown and is recovering in California. 

Thanks, Lonnie

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## barbara0207

Sorry, I only saw your post right now. Welcome to the forum.

You are right, he is recovering from some kind of breakdown but as far as I remember the text doesn't say where. What I actually meant is that he does not leave his family to live in some hut in California as he originally planned to do. When he takes resonsibility for his sister that seems to be the first sign of Holden growing up.

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## AuntShecky

there is something stultifying about the atmosphere in the prep school isn't there.
Also, New York City is so important in the book it is almost another character. I always maintained that the late 40s -early 50s may have been the best era ever for that city(as far as I can tell from contemporary books, movies and plays.) The Catcher in the Rye evokes that time so beautifully.
But aside from the surly characters, the sleazy hotel bellman (elevator operator?) don't overlook the importance
of Central Park in the last parts of the novel. Remember Holden's asking about the ducks?

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## Moyer

A quote from Mr. Antolini to Holden:

"Many, many men have been just as troubled morally and spiritually as you are right now. Happily, some of them have kept records of their troubles. You'll learn from them - if you want to."

Anyone care to list a few books that would fit this description?

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## ClickForth

okokok

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## SirJazzHands

Salinger's own _Franny and Zooey_

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## mayneverhave

Faulkner - "The Sound and the Fury" (particularly Quentin's Section)

and

Shakespeare - "Hamlet"

One could easily say that the entire play (especially the title character) puts forth thousands of questions and offers very little in terms of conviction or certainty.

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## puffin

Does the book have to be written in first person and do you want examples where the character is troubled from the start and goes on a journey to sort themselves out or would you accept examples where everything seems fine at the beginning but then something happens to make the character question their morals? 

ie Heart of Darkness is a great example of a character (Marlow) who has the 'mist lifted from his eyes'. And in recounting his story does the same to the narrator BUT don't know if this is what you mean as at the beginning both Marlow and the narrator were feeling pretty good about the world.

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## bassistchick

I have to answer some analytical questions for The Catcher in the Rye and I'm having a lot of trouble. If anyone has some answers, I would really appreciate it.

>What is the meaning behind Holden's obsession with everything staying the same?

>Holden is immature in many ways. Make an argument for why he acts so immaturely.

>The theme of mental instability is prevalent in the novel. Offer an argument to prove this theme.

>How is Phoebe a symbol of childhood?

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## HotKarl

> I have to answer some analytical questions for The Catcher in the Rye and I'm having a lot of trouble. If anyone has some answers, I would really appreciate it.
> 
> >What is the meaning behind Holden's obsession with everything staying the same?


Holden wants everything to stay the same because he is anxious about both sex and death. In a sense, he wants to stop time to preserve his youth, warding off death and the "maturity" that accompanies sexuality. You can see examples of these anxieties throughout the novel: his retelling of his little brother's death, how angry he gets about Stradlader trying to give his friend (I can't remember her name) "the time," his desire to be a "catcher in the rye." Holden's desire to stop time is a coping mechanism against his fears. 




> >Holden is immature in many ways. Make an argument for why he acts so immaturely.


Again, he acts immaturely in an effort to delay adulthood. By avoiding responsibility--avoiding his homework, getting kicked out of schools, going to New York--he's trying avoid sexuality and death. As for the whole "phony" thing, Holden insults other people's "fakeness" because he's fake himself. Ever hear the term "listen to someone's criticisms to learn their shortcomings?" Well, that's what Holden is doing; he's projecting his shortcomings on other people. Remember when he *****es about Ackley blocking his light? He does the same thing later to Stradlader. And remember all the lies he tells to the woman on the train? Holden is the "phoniest" guy in the novel. 




> >The theme of mental instability is prevalent in the novel. Offer an argument to prove this theme.


Read the last ten pages of the novel. There is narrative proof Holden is telling his story to someone in a mental institution. Also see the anxieties and projection I mentioned above.




> >How is Phoebe a symbol of childhood?


Sorry, I'm won't be nearly as helpful for this one, but I'll give it a crack. Holden sees Phoebe as a symbol for childhood because she's just that, a child. She's completely sexually unaware, and she's far from death. Holden admiration for her stems from his anxiety. Also, if I remember right, there's a scene near the end of the novel where Phoebe riders a carnival carousel, a sort of symbol for perpetual youth. I don't remember that much about Phoebe. Sorry.

Hope my answers are helpful and that they point you in the right direction. Best of luck!  :Thumbs Up:

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## Mockingbird_z

dont you think that he hates becoming an adult just because in the world of grown-ups many thanks are fake, phoney? remember his "even if you DID go around saving guys' livesand all, how would you know if you did it because you really wanted to save guys' lives, or because you did it because what you really wanted to do was be a terrific lawyer, with everybody slapping you on the back and congratulating you in court when the goddam trial was over, the reporters and everybody, the way it is in the dirty movies? How would you know you weren't being phony? the trouble is, you wouldn't."
(sorry for a long quotation)
i think he criticise everyone because he doesnt want to be like the rest of people he knows. and he gets very upset if a person he thought not a phoney turned out to be fake like the others.
perhaps that;s why he couldnt bring himself to call Jane.

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## moose gurl

Sylvia Plath's The Bell Jar. Excellent book.
Generation X by Douglas Coupland. Also really good.

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## eyemaker

How would you rate Salinger's _The Catcher in the Rye_?

Has anyone read _The Catcher in the Rye_ Please rate Salinger's novel. 
..




eyemaker

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## djy78usa

it's been many years since I read _The Catcher in the Rye._ I would need to reread it to get into any in-depth conversations, but I do remember enjoying it.

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## Joreads

I read it for bookclub and I really enjoyed it. However not everyone did in the group it was a 50/50 split

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## johann cruyff

_Catcher in the Rye_ is one of those books that can be great if you're reading them when you're 15 or so,and I really liked it the first time I read it,5-6 years ago,but after rereading it recently,I found it to be quite shallow in comparison to my earlier memory of it. Can't say it's one of my favourites.

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## Scheherazade

Another _Catcher_ discussion:

http://www.online-literature.com/for...hlight=catcher

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## raider60

> How would you rate Salinger's _The Catcher in the Rye_?
> 
> Has anyone read _The Catcher in the Rye_ Please rate Salinger's novel. 
> ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> eyemaker



It's easily my favorite coming-of-age novel, and as a teacher, it lends itself well to teaching symbolism. I read it in one sitting when I was fifteen (a long time ago now!) and have probably read it a dozen times since. In today's age with internet access and--at least in the US--an "anything goes and everything is accepted" mentality it has doubtless lost some of its edginess, but in my experience most kids still enjoy it. I know it had a significant impact on me--

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## downing

http://wiredforbooks.org/ianhamilton/ second interview is about J D Salinger.

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## bounty

i see "poor, wouldnt recommend it" is in a tie for third place...i wonder how many more times i can go in and vote for that choice until its #1?!

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## kelby_lake

An equal amount love it as those who hate it.

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## DapperDrake

> An equal amount love it as those who hate it.


And that's the sign of a good book, books that appeal to everyone are by definition somewhat bland.

I loved it  :Biggrin:  Holden reminds me a heck of a lot of myself in many ways, I always find it helps if you can identify with or at least understand the protagonist. 
Without the insight into Holden's thoughts on his existence this book would of been rather poor, its aptly named "The Catcher in the Rye" as this thought of Holden's really sum's him up and sum's up the whole point of the book.

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## muchado22

honestly, i thought holden to be a bit too angsty for my taste. yet, for me, that is the pot calling the kettle black. the realism is in the angst; holden's suffering is mostly self-inflicted as is life for most teenagers. however, there is contribution from outside influences.

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## NAboy19

Can anyone please give me a thorough analysis of the philosophical concepts located in Catcher in the Rye??? I'm really struggling with this. Thanks!

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## LitNetIsGreat

Oh, that is a bit heavy for this time of night and I don’t think I have time for a thorough philosophical analysis, been a few years since I read it too.

The first thought that springs to mind is obviously the youthful rebellion against conformity. This is actually quite a constant theme in life I think, the youthful rebellion against the “rules” imposed upon them by their elders and the system.

I doubt it, but maybe you could extend this thought further to encompass a wider rebellion, a sort of counter-culture rebellion or even of the capitalist system? Doesn’t he go on about Hollywood movies at the start of the novel? Though, if I remember correctly I think this is a positive image, an older brother I think, so maybe that wouldn’t fit? The rebellion of youth certainly would. You could read that in a Freudian way too.

Good luck with it anyway.

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## FalseReality

"Life _is_ a game, boy. Life_ is_ a game that one plays according to the rules."

That's the most important sentence in the whole book. It is a sentence that can be found on every page. And of course, Holden's reaction to old Spencer's philosophy is, "game, my ***."

[edit: Isn't it just wonderful that we here pride ourselves on reading the wisest writers of this world, some who have had their whole lifes work censored and blacklisted; and right here on this forum we cover up words and ideas. I can't even quote a book; quote a word that is now acceptable on TV and radio. If you're offended by seeing a synonym for butt, then you most certainly should not be reading the majority of the books discussed on this forum]

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## ravilobo

I am reading the book, finished half of it. I don't know the meaning of the title. Should I wait till the end? (Hope it is not a dumb question)

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## novelsryou

Wait...

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## barbara0207

Yes, wait until Holden explains.

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## ravilobo

All right! I will be waiting…

Loved the book though; it is in my top 10 favorite books now.

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## tractatus

.....

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## sjames08

Can anyone help me with ideas of how to argue whether or not The Catcher in the Rye should be banned for public high schools?

Thanks is advance

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## mayneverhave

I believe the main cause for banning it was obscenity, profanity, etc, specifically the f-word.

Which is ironic because the context in which the f-word is used is one in which Holden is actually disgusted with the word being scribbled seemingly everywhere, especially where little kids can see it.

The case for not banning it? This one should be fairly clear. Book banning/burning is an authoritarian, extremist religious practice that no civilized country should allow.

I'm not sure if it's still being banned today.

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## LitNetIsGreat

They should ban the people who ban the books!

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## Joreads

> They should ban the people who ban the books!


Well said. 

Once you find a reason to ban one book you open the gates and suddenly there are reasons to ban others. If people decide not to read a book for a particular reason so be it I respect that, but don't decide what I should read and why.

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## NEEMAN

Is this an essay question, or are you doing it as part of a debate team or something like that?

If you have a choice over which argument to make (which your initial post seems to indicate), then you should definitely be arguing that it should not be banned, not just because it is the correct viewpoint (which it is of course), but because it is the easiest to argue. Historical precedent will overwhelmingly support you when it comes to the effects/results of book banning- just take a look at the kind of literature that has been subject to banning; usually you will find it is amongst the best literature written.

And always remember the famous Heinrich Heine line: _"Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn people."_

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## sjames08

> Is this an essay question, or are you doing it as part of a debate team or something like that?
> 
> If you have a choice over which argument to make (which your initial post seems to indicate), then you should definitely be arguing that it should not be banned, not just because it is the correct viewpoint (which it is of course), but because it is the easiest to argue. Historical precedent will overwhelmingly support you when it comes to the effects/results of book banning- just take a look at the kind of literature that has been subject to banning; usually you will find it is amongst the best literature written.
> 
> And always remember the famous Heinrich Heine line: _"Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn people."_


Yes it is an essay question. I planned to argue that it shouldn't be banned. I was going to make the point that it appeals to the real life experiences of a highschool student. Also that it is a classic such as what you mentioned.


Any other good points on why it should NOT be banned?

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## LitNetIsGreat

> Any other good points on why it should NOT be banned?


How about that freedom thing that the American government pretends to agree with? I am sorry but I can feel nothing but rage towards the censorship of art of ANY kind - or censorship of anything for that matter.  :Flare:

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## mayneverhave

Especially with a novel that's quite far from obscene. Hell, I'd give my mother The Catcher in the Rye to read.

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## Saladin

Haha. Catcher in the Rye is obscene?

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## atena_63

Hi there . :Smile: 
Have you read " The Catcher In The Rye " ?
how was that ?
Do you feel the same as holden calfield ?
I'm looking forward to hear your ideas.

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## Hotaru

I like it, its a good piece of litterature.
Most people could probably relate to the solitude and attitude of Mr. Caulfield, I mean, we all experience the "phonyness" of the adult world, thing is, life aint that easy, modern society gives no room to practice complete honesty. We need to deceive to make a decent shot at life, so sure, we're all phonies, its sad, but we're all phonies.

When I first read it I felt I was Holden, to be honest. I was in dire need of expressing my individuality, and were doing it in some red-hunting-hat kinda way. I also had this mean judgemental streak towards pretty much everyone, implying that the people around me were natiously superficial, not realizing that my own perception of them were superficial in almost every case.

Im glad someone brought it up, it disappeared somewhere in the flow of time

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## Veva

I believe that the reason why they make us read that book at highschool is because they think that we would like it, and as a matter of fact, most of us like it because when you are a teen you always disapprove of something that is going on around you, what can also be found in the mentioned masterpiece. It is either the fact, that you are not able to communicate with your surroundings, that your parents do not understand you, or simply that you hate the consumer society. I mean that the book has many ideas, which are attractive to teenagers and young people, and that is what makes it simply great. :Thumbs Up:

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## Hotaru

Good thing im a spry, young man in need of damaged, bitter, fictionary characters I can relate to.

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## icecreamhead

I found it an interesting read, but I didn't really relate to Holden Caulfield in the slightest. However, I think if I'd read it at a younger age, like 14, I may well have related to the character.

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## atena_63

When I was reading this book I felt that I was Holden . Around every corner Holden sees corruption . In his opinion the world is an evil and corrupt place . In his eyes the world is filled with perverts and morons . he feels that everything is superficial and without a deep meaning . I think he feels that he is trapped in an immoral and scrupulous world from which he can not escape . he sees himself completely powerless to change it . Holden blames the world's corruption on the adults and believes that when he stops the children from growing up he will preserve their innocence but it takes most of the book before Holden begins to realize that he is powerless to stop corruption and should get used to live like other people .

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## Phranchesskah

When I read it, I saw that I had recently made the transition, or was midway through the transition, from a young Holden type character, into a 'phony'. It's a shame really, that we all ultimately give up and cave in to superficiality. My past self would be horrified at some of the things I do and say now, such as asking people how they are when I greet them, even though I don't really expect an honest answer. It is somewhat superficial.

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## aysim

Hey

I'm currently writing an essay on 'The Catcher in the Rye' and how it realistically (or unrealistically) portrays the time period in which it was set (1940's). 

What are your views on the subject? Is it a useful narrative in studying this period of America history in terms of culture and society or is it shrouded by Holdens pessimistic view of the world?

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## mayneverhave

In the past, I've linked The Catcher in the Rye with other 1950's "angry-young-men" works like John Osborne's "Look Back in Anger" and the film "Rebel Without a Cause".

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## Mag Master 21

I'd say it's pretty timeless and not necessarily indicative of a certain decade in American history.

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## bounty

> Hey
> 
> I'm currently writing an essay on 'The Catcher in the Rye' and how it realistically (or unrealistically) portrays the time period in which it was set (1940's). 
> 
> What are your views on the subject? Is it a useful narrative in studying this period of America history in terms of culture and society or is it shrouded by Holdens pessimistic view of the world?


aysim i agree with the last poster that holden is more or less a timeless character and that the book itself is not indicative of any particular period in our history. at the same time, id add, i think the book is terribly over-rated, the main character has little or no redeeming values, and the author's writing is tediously repetitive. every legitimate chance i get i criticize the book---if anyone can enlighten me as to how this book deserves the status it apparently has, id be happy to hear the argument.

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## JoeLopp

bounty, it may be due to the first cultural appearance of a youth wearing his ball cap backwards ...?  :Biggrin:

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## Mag Master 21

> aysim i agree with the last poster that holden is more or less a timeless character and that the book itself is not indicative of any particular period in our history. at the same time, id add, i think the book is terribly over-rated, the main character has little or no redeeming values, and the author's writing is tediously repetitive. every legitimate chance i get i criticize the book---if anyone can enlighten me as to how this book deserves the status it apparently has, id be happy to hear the argument.


It either speaks to you or it doesn't. When you read a passage or a play or a poem or a novel or whatever written word appears in front of you, it either clicks and you become one with the words, following every syllable with eagerness to reach the next... or it falls flat, and you find yourself going through the motions with the hope of moving onto something with more pull. 

What does this mean in the end? There is nothing I or anyone else can say that will suddenly make the characters, prose, plot, pace, etc. click in your head if it already hasn't. It is clear you just don't get the allure, but that's fine. There are countless novels that everyone on this board seems to think is God's work, yet I find mind-numbingly boring, unimaginative, and lacking any writing skill whatsoever.

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## John Goodman

> aysim i agree with the last poster that holden is more or less a timeless character and that the book itself is not indicative of any particular period in our history. at the same time, id add, i think the book is terribly over-rated, the main character has little or no redeeming values, and the author's writing is tediously repetitive. every legitimate chance i get i criticize the book---if anyone can enlighten me as to how this book deserves the status it apparently has, id be happy to hear the argument.



It is simply the best character study of a teenager ever written. Salinger is not repetitive (if you've read what else you've written) but Holden himself thinks and speaks in such a manner. If you cannot appreciate just how great the novel is, then there's nothing else to say.

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## Apocrypha75

Read it. It's okay but I was left wondering how it garnered such praise. It's probably just me.  :Tongue:

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## dfloyd

It was one of the first books I delved into in the early 1950s. I particularly remember Holden's allusions to books he had read, one of which was Hardy's The Return of the Native. I thought, 'What an odd name for a book.' I didn't read Hardy for many years after, but I think reading Catcher ... was an intro to literature.

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## mayneverhave

This was my favorite book growing up (not though I'm hardly very old even now).

My feelings toward the book have cooled somewhat, the more critical and analytical I get, but the novel still has a pathological affect on me.

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## Mockingbird_z

I read it being already a grown-up, but luckily I had the pleasure of reading it in original and the book impressed me a lot. I liked the way Holden spoke about his sister, I cold feel that he loves her and i just knew that what He felt was sincere. Great book, no doubt.

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## Vicarious

It is my favourite book for many reasons. I wrote my A Level essay piece on childhood and used Catcher in the Rye and The Wasp Factory for comparison. I fell in love with it. I was going through a horrible stage where I felt very confused (about my sexuality, what I wanted to do with my life and how I felt about my friendship group) and the book just tore at my heart strings.

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## serendipity86

What would be Maxist critics of the Catcher in the Rye?

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## serendipity86

> That's it! Existentialism was partly a response to the pre-WWII fascination with Ferdinand de Saussure's Structuralism (in which each identity takes on its meaning on the basis of a relationship with other parts of an overall structure). The Existentialists spear-headed the movement that the Postmodernists (or, more precisely, Poststructuralists) became famous for. Jacques Derrida (Deconstruction), Jacques Lacan (Psychoanalysis), Michel Foucault (New Historicism), and Judith Butler (Queer Theory), as well as William V. Spanos (Postcolonialism) are some of the big names in the field of Poststructuralism. Here's a brief explanaton of the three different schools and their relationship with each other:
> 
> Structuralism preaches the doctrine that signs (words, for example) operate based on a system of differences. Words correspond to certain ideas . . . obviously we couldn't have just one word to capture every meaning, because the word would be too vague and would, subsequently, become useless. On the other hand, we could not have 1,000 different words that all mean the same thing, because, practically speaking, it wouldn't make any sense to use so many different signs to represent one idea. So we generally have a system of one idea per corresponding word . . . sometimes words share many different meanings (e.g. 'dull', 'grace', 'fly') and other times one meaning is signified by many different words, but the whole system is generally balanced. Those are the bare bones of Structuralism. You can apply this theory to anything that has an identity (this theory has been applied to everything from Economics to how the Human Mind operates).


Hi. Thank for sharing your ideas. 

I have a question. Are the Cliffnotes and Sparknotes considered structuralism approach? Thanks

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## serendipity86

What would be The New Criticism's view of Catcher in the rye? Thanks.

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## joao_oliveira

I believe it was pretty innovative piece of work, specially if Salinger didn't think or write in that way. I've read "Nine Stories" and it's not that he always sound like an angry teenager, though his writing style is very simples. Maybe many people think that it is very easy to write like this, but if this books was a pioneer, then I think the author had some merit.

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## Scheherazade

The why of the Rye

An article on _Catcher in the Rye_.

----------

