# Reading > General Literature >  Brazilian Literature

## Brasil

Know more about the history, the names and the works of the Brazilian Literature.

The history of Brazilian Literature is divided in periods, basically: Barroco, Arcadismo, Romantismo, Realismo/Naturalismo, Parnasianismo, Simbolismo, Modernismo.

Important names from the past and today:

*Castro Alves*, the "poet of the slaves", was one of the first abolitionists in Brazil, on XIX century.

*Machado de Assis* founded the Brazilian Academy of Letters in 1896. Maybe the greatest Brazilian novelist.

*Jorge Amado,* who wrote "Tieta" and "Gabriela Cravo e Canela", the most famous books of Amado in the world, but there are several other important works.

*Carlos Drummond de Andrade*, once wrote a Ode to the ordinary man:
"...Key in hand, 
you want to open the door - 
there is no door. . ." 
and several other poems.

*João Cabral de Melo Neto*, "I try not to perfume the flower". 
He wrote "Morte e Vida Severina" (Death and Life of a Severino) and several other poems and books.

*Vinicius de Moraes*, poet and diplomat, best remembered for his words in Bossa Nova songs. 
*The girl from Ipanema* is just one of the Vinicius (poet) and Tom Jobim (musician) works. Vinicius has books and several poems.

*Paulo Coelho*, the "wizard", is a Brazilian novelist. His books have appeared on bestsellers list of UK, USA, Greece, Romania, Bulgaria, Russia, Cuba, Poland, Lithuania, France, Germany, Iran, Canada, Italy, Israel, Finland, Serbia. He is the all time best-selling Portuguese language author.
Madonna (singer) and Bill Clinton (ex-president) are fans of his work.

Latter I'll continue.

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## JBI

Maybe you can answer this, is Coelho's Portuguese as bad as they say? His translations into English aren't great to begin with, but I hear his grammar and style in original is even worse.

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## Erichtho

Earlier this year I read _Capitães da areia_ (Captains of the Sand) by Jorge Amado, and quite liked it, but other than that I can't remember having read much from Brasilia. Where is a good starting point?

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## Brasil

Thanks for join the thread!

*JBI,*
Congratulations, you're well-informed about it.
Yes indeed, the critic exist. But just about the Coelho's portuguese structure, not about themes of his books. It looks like the critics about Tolkien' english, almost all of them the same type of critics.
People says Coelho's books is for the housewives, teenagers, etc... never for the literature students. I agree in terms, but also disagree.
There are a lot of prejudice from the intelecuals about Coelho.
Coelho is not a rich literature as Carlos Drummond, Machado de Assis, etc... I know that. However, I apreciate the mysticism and the philosophy of his work. His stories teach us a few things, make we think sometimes... It is a good thing to considerate.

Furthermore, Portuguese grammar is not a easy thing, I have admit it.

The greek philosopher, Plato, was a terrible writer too (too long sentences, confuse, not very creative with vocabullary), I've read his work and I know that. But the knowledge of the Plato's philosophy is amazing! I really love his philosophy and I am a great fan of Plato. For me, Plato is one of the best philosophers, ever!
But I not compare Plato and Coelho. It's totally different.

So, Coelho is far from the top of greatest writers, but he has other qualities to consider.
Conclusion: Coelho is not a "Drummond" or a "Machado", but, as we say in Brazil, "he has his place".

*Erichtho*
I'm glad to hear your interess. I not sure if I understood your question, but I will try to answer it.
Brasilia is the capital of Brasil, you know, where the politics decisions are made. 

If you want to learn more about Brazilian culture (I think that was the question, am I right?) I reccomend to you: 
- Joao Cabral de Melo Neto
- Ariano Suassuna
- Vinicius de Moraes (the books, the poetry, the songs, etc)
- Machado de Assis, specially the book Memórias Póstumas de Bras Cubas (Bras Cuba's Posthumous Memories) The narrator is a dead person, and he is recalling his lost life. Great!
Specialists says that Machado de Assis goes beyond the Realism.
On Machado, it's a common thing his narrator talk to the reader.

Once again, thank you all for your participation.

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## JCamilo

Coelho portuguese is awful. If he was at school (not high school) he would have problems to get a C- or something like this. And what is this thing about his themes not receiving critics? When people call him a self-help writer they are exactly doing it. When they say he always tell the same story with the same message they are doing it. When they he is a new wave mambo jambo they are doing it. He have a place indeed, a place to remind us what happens with a dictadorship destroys a culture and education: Bad writers will domain the scene. I fall to see how Tolkien's english (Tolkien was a stundent of english language, Coelho is a destroyer of portuguese language was related to this) and dimissing the critics to coelho as t he same thing as If there is no reason to criticise Tolkien as well. 

Coelho does not make us think - He give us always the easy answer. It is easy to understand. It is easy to read and put aside. It is accessible to everyone (hence why he is a best-seller). Machado de Assis, Guimaraes Rosa, Lima Barreto, Drummond, etc make us think because there is complexity in their works that match the complexity of life. Something Coelho likes to destroy. 
And there is no prejudice about Coelho. They read coelho and saw him as cheap literature because he is cheap literature. They are not talking about something unknow, only use pre-judgmeent. However Coelho's pretenssion to be considered a great writer, his political manipulation to get a seat in the Brazilian Academy is ridiculous. 
Have you read Plato in greek??? (Obviously you can Compare Plato to Coelho, but not for aesthetic merit since Plato didn't aimed it... however, Plato was a great creator of devices that would be used later for aesthetic devices, so he can be called an artists, either PLato likes or not). 
Jorge Amado is a local kind of literature - as Much as Faulkner is in USA. You may start from him but that does not means you will go anywhere from him. Everything depends the kind of literature you like.

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## Brasil

JCamilo, are you Brazilian?

I respect your oppinion, but disagree.
There are many different ways of literature. The world would be boring if all writers were always worried about grammar and vocabulary details.
Coelho writes for the simple people, not for the doctors. He writes at the same way people talk at the streets. 
If exists a song style that sings slangs all the time (rock, hip hop...) and its way of sing is near from what people talk at streets, so why not the literature can do the same?
I love the classic way of speak, the classical literature is my favorite. But literature is not just it. Some people had studies, some didn't. Because of that they are forbbiden to write, to express themselves? I don't think so!

So, that's social prejudice and intelectual arrogance.

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## Brasil

As in other countries, Brazilian literature is very rich and varied too.
But now I going to make a little change at the subject, just for a while.

The lyric poetry on ancient Greece times was made to sing and to hear, not to read. In Middle Age, the rondò and the song were forms of poetry, originally to be sung. The word "sonnet" means "little sound". 
There were also the Minstrels and the Troubadours. I belive you all know that. So, what we have today?
I'm going to post a beautiful brazilian song here, cause I consider it is a kind of literature too.
The composer and letrist is *Renato Russo*, from the pop group *Legião Urbana*. For me, he was a great poet/singer. For a generation he was a hero.
I am not going to post Tom Jobim, Chico Buarque, etc, because everybody in whole world already know theese great composers. I want to present something new to the foreign people and popular to the Brazilians.
What is the bad of being pop? Shakespeare was pop on his time.

The lyric bellow talks about the discovery of Brazil and its colonization. Maybe it can be extend to the whole American Continet in general

*Stanza 3* talks about the european people who arrived and made indians turn to slaves (europeans gave mirrors exchanged for indian labour, so the natives became slaves).
*Stanza 4* talks about the europeans taughts about the christianism (the holy Trinity)
*Last stanza*: Maybe it had some influence from Jacques Rosseau philosophy.
Other details you will see in the lyric.

I've translated all by myself, from the Portuguese to English. It is a hard work, I don't know if it is correct. Sorry.
Anyway, here it goes:

*Índios* (Legião Urbana)
Indians (by Legiao Urbana)

I wish,
Once at least, 
Take back all the gold 
That I delivered to the one 
who convinced me 
That was proof of friendship 
let someone take from me
Even what I hadn't

I wish,
Once at least,
To Prove that the one who 
has more than needs
Almost always is convinced 
That it is not enough 
And speak a lot 
because he has nothing to say.

I wish,
Once at least,
The simple things were seen
As the most important ones,
But they gave us mirrors 
And we saw a sick world.

I wish,
Once at least,
To Understand how one only God 
Is, at the same time, three
And This same God 
was killed by you all
It is so evil 
Drives a God to sadness.

I wish,
Once at least,
As the most beautiful tribe 
Of the most beautiful Indians, 
Do not be attacked 
Because being innocent.

There are more, but for me these are best parts of the song. And that is what I wanted to share with you all.

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## Brasil

I'm not here to enter into a discussion about if Paulo Coelho is poor literature or not.
I just want to say this: most of people which hate Coelho are envious, cause Coelho sold, and still sell, a lot of books all over the world. A lot of intelectual writers would like to make money with their books as Coelho does, but they don't, so they feel a little envy.
I'm not saying Coelho is a rich literature, but I respect him. As I told before, his portuguese is not a glamorous thing, but there are other kinds of literature, other kinds of languages, so he has his place.

*I prefer people in this thread read the post before, see the poem and enjoy it*, instead of wasting time with discussions.

If you hate Paulo Coelho, leave him with his peace of mind. Look for an author you apreciate. Why wasting your time talking about someone you dislike?

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## Brasil

I totally agree with Antiquarian. There is beauty in the simplicity.

Now I hope you all enjoy the Legiao Urbana poem/song posted above. And I hope my translations work.

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## Inderjit Sanghe

Yes simple prose can often be more beautiful than flowery prose-Kafka, Chekhov and Mansfield are great examples. 

I really enjoyed the novel _The Devil to Pay in Backlands_, it is a great novel, my favourite Brazillian one, though I am not well-versed in Braz. lit. If your writing is as beautiful as your football then I might be more interested though.... :Biggrin:

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## Brasil

*Carolina*
Darling, at the foot of your final bedstead
In which now you rest from this long life,
I come and will be coming my poor darling,
to offer you a companions heart.

True affection throbs in it
That, despite all strife in life,
Made our existence worthwhile
And contained the whole world in a single corner.

I bring flowers to you  remains torn from
This earth that saw us pass by together
And now that were deceased, it keeps us apart.

When I, in my mortally hurt eyes,
formulated thoughts about life,
those thoughts are past and gone.

Machado de Assis, 1906

From: Nadia Kerecuk  Machado de Assis poems  basic working translation for workshop on poetry - S. Watts June 07

Machado de Assis poems (translated to english):
http://www.brazil.org.uk/events/mach...chadopoems.pdf

Machado de Assis page (in english):
http://www.brazil.org.uk/events/machadodeassis.html

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## Brasil

Available in english:

http://books.google.com.br/books?id=...mbnail#PPP1,M1

I don't know if it is the complete version of the book.

I'll try to find a pdf for download and other books translated to english, then I post here the link.

*Inderjit Sanghe*
Be welcome to the thread.
Did you read the post about Legiao Urbana and the posts before? I am trying to translate a few poems to present to the people a little part of the Bras. Lit.
Try to read Machado de Assis.
I belive you're going to enjoy it.

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## JCamilo

> JCamilo, are you Brazilian?


Yes. Are you as well? 




> I respect your oppinion, but disagree.
> There are many different ways of literature.


That is correct. There is different literatures and also different qualities of literature. Coelho writers self help books disguised of oriental parables and writes badly. 




> The world would be boring if all writers were always worried about grammar and vocabulary details.



That is like a pilot who does not care about cars, a footballer that does not care about ball. A Writer must domain his vocabulary or grammar. 




> Coelho writes for the simple people, not for the doctors. He writes at the same way people talk at the streets.


No. Jorge Amado or Lima Barreto wrote like people talk in the streets. Paulo Coelho writes very badly. And No writer writes for Doctors, having a simple and clear language is one thing - no writer needs to be Joyce or Guimaraes Rosa - but do not confund using badly a language with the same as writing for somple people. 
Yes, he writes for simple people and worst, he kept them simple. 




> If exists a song style that sings slangs all the time (rock, hip hop...) and its way of sing is near from what people talk at streets, so why not the literature can do the same?


Literature can. That is not what Coelho does. I am not talking about him writing like a linguistic, but he does that mistake when using average portuguese language. 




> I love the classic way of speak, the classical literature is my favorite. But literature is not just it. Some people had studies, some didn't. Because of that they are forbbiden to write, to express themselves? I don't think so!


The problem of Coelho is not picking the popular vocabulary to write - the great part of the best brazilian literature was build that way, Dante did it - is doing the mistakes while doing it. 




> So, that's social prejudice and intelectual arrogance.


He is one of the richest brazilians, he fought to be an Immortal in the Brazilian Academy and be equalled to James Joyce. I agree, he is arrogant.

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## JCamilo

> Some people might say the grammar in Eudora Welty's stories is awful, or in Alice Walker's Pulitzer Prize winning novel, _The Color Purple_. And, grammatically, it is. But it fits the story and the characters perfectly, and that's what counts. That's what matters. Welty's characters and Walker's characters couldn't be expected to speak any other way.


Walker and Eudora Welty are not great examples but well... Coelho does his mistakes when compared to an average brazilian writer. He does mistakes with the vocabulary/grammar/semantics he tries to use. He is not picking different dialetics even because everyone in coelho's stories have the same voice and style. 





> While Coelho isn't my favorite author, I think his writing style fits his subject matter perfectly.


Agree, simple books that won't cause the reader any doubt, any thinking, and the sensation that happiness is one step from you. 




> He tells fables, not complicated stories, and so his prose is uncomplicated as well. But there's beauty in simplicity as well as complexity. And there's depth. I've found both in Coelho's stories.


I wonder what depth. His stories are all the same about the "magic" that is fiding the happiness within or trusting yourself to achive success. Self Help.

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## JCamilo

> I'm not here to enter into a discussion about if Paulo Coelho is poor literature or not.
> I just want to say this: most of people which hate Coelho are envious, cause Coelho sold, and still sell, a lot of books all over the world. A lot of intelectual writers would like to make money with their books as Coelho does, but they don't, so they feel a little envy.
> I'm not saying Coelho is a rich literature, but I respect him. As I told before, his portuguese is not a glamorous thing, but there are other kinds of literature, other kinds of languages, so he has his place.
> 
> *I prefer people in this thread read the post before, see the poem and enjoy it*, instead of wasting time with discussions.
> 
> If you hate Paulo Coelho, leave him with his peace of mind. Look for an author you apreciate. Why wasting your time talking about someone you dislike?



I do not hate Coelho at all. As an Educator I found him damaging. My critics where to his books, Not to him until I discovered the kind of hypocrite he is in relation to authoral rights fight. 
I do not think you really understand: Coelho is very jealous of James Joyce, Borges or Guimaraes Rosa. He used political influence to achive the status of Immortal of Literature. Your assumptions are ridiculous about the reason why people make critics to him - Lot of them are rich enough. And I care less for sucess. 
I would say the same about Renato Russo, a limited singer from a poor punk rock band that had no originality or talent and was 10 years delayed born in a generation that had not the true rebelious spirit writing for public that had no critical capacity and as a poet...ermmm.... No comment. We have Machado de Assis, Gonçalves Dias, Castro Alves, Drummond the king of all Musicians/Writers, Vinicius. They are good.
As simplicity - I think you do not see that I am not against coelho's style but his capacity to deal with that style. I just need to read Malba Tahan or Jorge Luis Borges to see those who deal what Coelho dreams to do with real quality.

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## stlukesguild

I do not wish to get too deeply into the Paulo Coelho controversy, not having read or wanted to read any of his books. I will say, however, that I do question the notion that critics of a popular or successful artist must surely be motivated solely by jealousy. We hear the same thing all the time whenever someone dares to criticize Tolkein, Stephen King, or even Dan Brown or the _Harry Potter_ novels. I will agree that the degree of criticism they receive is certainly motivated by their success... but not so much out of jealousy... but rather an indignant feeling that one is sick of continually hearing about an artist of essentially mediocre abilities far more than many others who are far more worthy of attention. Certainly there are hundred/thousands of other writers/artists just as mediocre... but they have never attained a level of success and never been acclaimed by anyone as being anything more than mediocre. Having said that much, I must also question the criticisms of Plato: 

"The greek philosopher, Plato, was a terrible writer too (too long sentences, confuse, not very creative with vocabullary)"

I don't know what constitutes a sentence that is "too long" but I'm guessing that Proust, Joyce, Melville, and many others would be found equally guilty of this "fault"... and yet somehow I don't find them to be bad writers. Confusing? The fault there might lie more with the reader than the writer... at least in Plato's instance. Not very creative with vocabulary? Well... he's certainly not a sensual, poetic linguist. Not Proust... but then again neither was Hemingway, Borges, Racine, Kafka, etc... Personally I find his language quite well suited to what he is attempting to convey (form follows function). But let's return to the discussion of some of the other literature from Brazil that is surely far more worthy of attention. I read Amado's _Sea of Death_ some 15 years ago and only remember it vaguely... but I was very much impressed with Machado de Assis' _Posthumous Memoirs of Bras Cubas_, and I have been looking for some of his other works.

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## Brasil

Hi, *stlukesguild*. I agree with you, totally. 
Thanks for coming.

Obs:
(too long = so long = very long) When someone write big sentences (too long sentences) it might become very confusing. That's what I tried to say.

I am a Plato fan, he's my "hero" (actually, Socrates is). My critic about him was an absurd example to ilustrate how critics are fools. They look at the little details, searching the little negative points, and lost the beauty of the work.
Actually, the critic about Plato exist (grammar aspects and philosophical aspects) but who care for critics? I don't!

*JCamilo*, hello, it's good to see you here again! You've asked me if I'm Brazilian? Let me show you:

Conheço essa mania de brasileiro: ao invés de falar das coisas boas do país, prefere criticar e mostrar os pontos negativos. Se você não gosta de Coelho, esqueça-o e falemos de outra coisa. Só citei Coelho porque ele é o autor mais conhecido e o que mais vende no exterior. Eu precisava disso para chamar as pessoas ao tópico, mas o que quero divulgar mesmo é a "boa literatura", (como os tradicionalistas dizem, né)?
Agora esqueça o que falei, sem comentários, e divulguemos o que achamos bom a respeito do Brasil, este é o objetivo do tópico.

Sure I am Brazilian: I apreciate all the kinds of readings and cultures, brazilian and others. I am not a Paulo Coelho fan. You are not a Paulo Coelho fan. So, please, let's talk about Brazilian writers which you apreciate. What a wasting of time talking about someone that we are not fan. What (you apreciate in "Bras. Lit." we will talk, ok)?
Now I think it's important, and it's a thing to consider, the Brazil's popular songs, surely it's a rich literature topic.

JCamilo, could you help me to post something about "literatura de cordel "?
Always in english, surely!
And what about the words of "Asa Branca"? The tears roll from my eyes when I hear Asa Branca. Amazing poetry!!!

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## JCamilo

> Hi, *stlukesguild*. 
> Obs:
> (too long = so long = very long) When someone write big sentences (too long sentences) it might become very confusing. That's what I tried to say.


To help Stlukesguild a little, when Plato wrote the written language was not the same as we have now. The material used, the punctuation, the use, everything was different. I doubt we read PLato today, rather versions of him. Anyone able to divise the fuction of dialogue those days was rather keen about the techniques, so I doubt Plato was doing anything wrong for the language he wrote. Rather that our world today will find it different and maybe "Less developed". 
As long sentences, The initial sentence of Metamorphosis of Kafka have a beauty due the size and the list of Stlukesguild is more than enough to clean Plato's plates. 




> I am a Plato fan, he's my "hero" (actually, Socrates is). My critic about him was an absurd example to ilustrate how critics are fools. They look at the little details, searching the little negative points, and lost the beauty of the work.
> Actually, the critic about Plato exist (grammar aspects and philosophical aspects) but who care for critics? I don't!


Plato himself was a critic, among the first to try to define art to create critics about him. And some near absurdity. But critics to his philosophical system must exist, otherwise we would be stuck in a past and a single vision. 
Now literary critics... Man they are no fools. There is bad critics (as there is bad poets, bad fiction writers, bad singers, etc) but most people are not giving critics to coelho because of nitpicking. Or to Dan Brown, etc. Considering not even Dante was perfect, Critics are necessary because they are a door for understanding the work and artists (not really always necessary) and to preserve the beauty of those works.
Among the greatest writers - fiction writers - several are good critics - Dante, Coleridge, Jorge Luis Borges, Italo Calvino, Robert Louis Stevenson, Chesterton, Gorki, Tolstoi, Virginia Woolf, Baudelaire, Machado de Assis, Mario de Andrade, Poe, Nabakov, Voltaire, Yates, Shelley - their critical essays about their own craft ,art and even their mistakes are among the highlights of literature. 




> *JCamilo*, hello, it's good to see you here again! You've asked me if I'm Brazilian? Let me show you:
> 
> Conheço essa mania de brasileiro: ao invés de falar das coisas boas do país, prefere criticar e mostrar os pontos negativos. Se você não gosta de Coelho, esqueça-o e falemos de outra coisa. Só citei Coelho porque ele é o autor mais conhecido e o que mais vende no exterior. Eu precisava disso para chamar as pessoas ao tópico, mas o que quero divulgar mesmo é a "boa literatura", (como os tradicionalistas dizem, né)?
> Agora esqueça o que falei, sem comentários, e divulguemos o que achamos bom a respeito do Brasil, este é o objetivo do tópico.


Quando perguntei se você era brasileiro, era simplesmente para saber. Às vezes já vi pessoas que admiram um aspecto da nossa cultura sendo de outros países. Mas eu discordo - Não só eu falei daqueles bons escritores mas o que Paulo Coelho faz é exatamente tomar lugar de outros escritores. Já o vi citado como maior escritor brasileiro de todos os tempos e ele usa textos do Malba Tahan o tempo todo, sem citar fontes, e o Malba, esse sim um grande escritor, fica no escuro. É como se para falar de Chico Buarque, Tom Jobim e Caetano Veloso eu tivesse de falar do Créu  :Biggrin:  
Eu sou um crítico e isso significa que tento ver as características de algo, se é negativo, como o Coelho, não é minha culpa. Ainda mais na literatura, que para mim é algo mundial, não só nacional - esse acidente de percuso que prende um mundo a um ponto no atlas. 

I only asked if you are brazilian to know. Sometimes I saw peopole who admired a few aspects of our culture coming from other countries. But I disagree - Not only I mentioned good writers but Coelho takes places of other writers. I have seen him named as greatest brazilian writer of all time and he uses texts from Malba Tahan all the time without revealing the sources, and Malba, this one a really great writer, is kept in the dark. It is almost as if when Talkiing About Chico Buarque, Tom Jobim and Caetano Veloso we had to talk about Créu. 
I am a ccritic and this means I try to see the traits of something, if it is negative, like with Coelho, it is not my fault. Even more literature, something for me international and not just national - this accident of fate that nails an world in a pont in a world map. 





> Sure I am Brazilian: I apreciate all the kinds of readings and cultures, brazilian and others. I am not a Paulo Coelho fan. You are not a Paulo Coelho fan. So, please, let's talk about Brazilian writers which you apreciate. What a wasting of time talking about someone that we are not fan. What (you apreciate in "Bras. Lit." we will talk, ok)?
> Now I think it's important, and it's a thing to consider, the Brazil's popular songs, surely it's a rich literature topic.


My favorite Brazilain Writer is Monteiro Lobato, with Gonçalves Dias as my favorite poet. I have 




> JCamilo, could you help me to post something about "literatura de cordel "?
> Always in english, surely!
> And what about the words of "Asa Branca"? The tears roll from my eyes when I hear Asa Branca. Amazing poetry!!!


Considering it is poetry, i think it must be both versions but I found regional literature extremelly hard to translate - I tried once or while when asked and calling the "Devil" o "coisa-ruim" is a bit less poetic...
Anyways, If I could I would love to translate Ariano Suassuna, this one the greatest living brazilian writer, but it is hard. I will see if I can translate Asa Branca for you.

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## Pecksie

JCamilo, I completely agree with what you say. Coelho is awful. In fact, I strongly object to his being included in the company of people such as Jorge Amado or Guimaraes Rosa.

Has anyone noticed what the reward found by the truth-seeking little shepherd in "The Alchemist" is? If I'm not mistaken, it's a treasure of gold coins or something like that, i.e. money. That's his philosophy for you...

I have nothing against self-help or commercial authors, I just don't read them because I don't feel they have anything to offer me. Let people read whatever they want (even if it's a pity that talented writers have trouble getting published, while this sort of drivel sells millions of copies). But I don't feel they should be included among the great.

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## tractatus

From Brasil, I read Coelho, Jorge Amado and De Assis.

Jorge Amado (only 1 book I ve read -Os pastores da noite), this book has very well foreword(opening) that made me excited but then comes nothing, only simple grade magical realism. I m talking about book of course, not writer, have to see more of him to judge his ability. But have to ask, how this book "Os pastores da noite" judged in Brasil? His good one, or ordinary?

De Assis was quite good, thinking his period, both creative and brave. I like his book.(In my language, translated as 'writing from my tomb')

Coelho, with millions of book sold(guess), I cant tell he is bad writer, but I can easily say he is not producing big art. I gave him two chances, and will no more.

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## JCamilo

Ok, I help out Brasil (our fellow member) I think I have said all it is necessay to be said about Coelho and even if literature and internet forums are repetitive, I will try to help out to focus in what make Brazilian literature great. But one last thing: Pecksie the thing is that final , that whole story, is a Arabian Short Story, If I am not mistaken present in the 1001 nights, retold by Kalil Gibhram and published by Borges in the "Book of Dreams". That was the final of the story and since Coelho copied it almost letter by letter there was no change. My problem is the reading he gave, that you find happiness in the end of your self-discovered search where you started (within). This Dismiss the cleaver reading of Borges that saw the aesthetic wonder of a story about two individuals in two different coutries sharing the same dream and the real arabic meaning of this allegory (a great writer usually domains and manipulate allegories and metaphors) that is obeying Allah. As people said, it is just the simple, first meaning of all that is transmited by Coelho and this is such emptiness for me. Anyways, moving...

Jorge Amado and his books are held in high regard. One of the reasons is because the leading TV Channel here produced several apadations "soap-operas" that kept the color and sensuality of his female characters and were sucessfull. 

The thing is Brazil is very big (as most of you people know). So, every region developed not only a particular version of portuguese as a different culture and literature. We are also very young.
Altought there is literature before the XVIII century, I think it is safe to say that a brazilian literature and not just a portuguese literature written here, started in the end of XVIII century when the first movements of indepence started. A few poets of a movement know as "Incofidencia Mineira" (In the state of Minas Gerais) produce a few notable works. Claudio Manoel da Costa mostly, those works typical example of classic writting (here labeled as Arcadism) with the influence of the enlightinment, mostly french. They however are not thinking about Brazil, but since they are valued as such, they are part of Brazil and not Portugal. 

In the XIX Century, with the independence, the romantic movement with their nationalist traits found here the question about "Who Brasil was" and this produced 3 artists that answered this question and saw us as a whole. They are the founders of the indianism, a movement that included the non-european elements in the literature and this question is the basis of almost all literatures of brazil. Two were poets, typical exemples from the romantic generation (included with the young death, turbeculosis). I must point out that Portuguese is a now a free-flow language as english and even so, in their best momments Castro Alves and Gonçalves Dias produced works as good as the great 6 from England or Baudelaire (France was the main influence of Brazil). Castro long poem, Navio Negreiro, introduced the african slaves characters for the batle to end the slavery. Gonçalves Dias produced a epic I-Juca Pirama with natives as main characters. Dias is a great poet, working easily with stabilished forms and free verses. In terms of lyric poetry, only Camoes can rival him using portuguese idiom. 
But the main name is José de Alencar. His romance Iracema was an allegory about a european who marries a maiden (the virgin with honey lips) that represents the innocent Young Brazil. They die, but a son, mix between both survives. Frankly, I find Alencar a bit heavy but a romance, Reincarnation, that he wrote in his last years, a urban story about a young girl who marries a man who lost his wife but is still obcessed with her is amazing. There is traces of the russian psychological romance, an eeire feeling that is a bit of magical realism and since the relation between the young girl and the late wife is a picture, even a tint of Dorian Gray. It is my favorite romance. 
After Alencar, Machado de Assis happens. Machado represents the urban literature, of a growing brazil. He is quite unique even if we can find the Flaubert, Zola, Balzac typical of realism we can see more, like short moral stories with the critical sense of Voltaire. The variation of texts include jornalism, critical, poetry and translations such as the first translation of The Raven in Brazil. (There is other good writers during this period, but Machados overshadowed them all, helping to organize them as well, which helped when the Modernist movements happened).
So, next step is the pre-modernism. Two names, two critics with great nationalist bias domain this scenary. One is Lima Barreto, who is a bit of rebel coming from lower classes (his was descendent of africans). Sarcastic and brillant, a bit like Machado when acting as critic.
The other is more a upper class intelectual, Monteiro Lobato. Lobato dwelt in politics and other arts, but his most important thing is: in 1906 he predicted Brazil should learn how to play football (soccer) because one day we would be the best in the world  :Biggrin: 
Joking, Lobato worry for education was a main trait, so besides writing for addults he translated Andersen, Perrault, Carroll, Grimms, Barrie and created a manigificent magical world named Sitio do Pica-pau Amarelo (Farm of the yellow Woodpecker) using the books to educated children he travels with them to old greece, the moon, and wherever. It is amazing and Emilia, a trap doll that is the main character is one of the most interesting female characters of all time. 
Monteiro was one of the defenders and attackers of the modernist movement who was lead by two writers with great comical streak: Mario de Andrade and Oswald de Andrade. Mario is said as one of the founders of magical realism, is a great guy, found of several art schools in Brazil. Oswald is a pop star with genius for parody unmatched. The important is that the modernist movement opened Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and Minas Gerais for writers of other states, from north-northwest we had Joao Cabral de Melo Neto, Graciliano Ramos, Jorge Amado, Raquel de Queiroz from South Erico Verissimo. From Folklore studies, Camara Cascudo. Football became popular about this time and one of the reasons was the quality of writers such Mario Filho and Nelson Rodrigues (the main dramaturgist of brazilian history). We can not forget the quality of Olavo Billac and Manoel Bandeira, two great poets. Cecilia Meireles a great woman writer. But the Modernist generation was just opening the path for two real genius coming from Minas Gerais: Guimaraes Rosa which capacity to deal with Romance is compared to Faulkner, Joyce, Proust and all the guys who worked with language (the complexity of Rosa's vocabulary is only matched by Finnegans Wake btw) and he produced a literature of high quality. Short stories or romances. Drummond poetry is one of the most melancholic, even with humor and sensuality, poetry ever. If there was no Fernando Pessoa, he would reing alone as the portuguese poet of the century (Btw, I find him highly superior to Neruda, in fact, he is the greatest latin american poet of the XX Century and Rosa is a match for Garcia-Marquez and sometimes even Borges). 
The modernis movement helped popular (the popular-oral tradition is highly reggarded with brazil because ilustrated the misture of African-european-indian culture) such as the Cordels (one great name is Catulo da Paixao Cearense or Patativa do Asssare). With the 60's the militar dictadorship hit us heavily, and we never produced any longer a generation like the modernists. There is a few good guys, mostly in the humor area but one that i like to name is Malba Tahan. A matematician that loved arabian culture, he was a brazilian guy that created this character that was an arabian living in brazil (we have a huge population of middle west poeple living here) and telling his stories. With this he translated Galand's 1001 nights and lots of oriental short stories to use in his school class. Only near his death they discovered it was a fake name by a dude who didn't spoken a single word of arabian. 

I forget many people and in the other areas of literature we had great names as well, but I think from those names you can get those who are the greatest brazilian writers ever.

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## JCamilo

Here is a translation, nothing that great of the Music Asa Branca by a Forró, a regional style of Music; Asa branca means White wing. 

Quando olhei a terra ardendo
Qual fogueira de São João
Eu perguntei a Deus do céu, ai
Por que tamanha judiação

Que braseiro, que fornalha 
Nem um pé de plantação 
Por falta d'água perdi meu gado 
Morreu de sede meu alazão

Até mesmo a asa branca 
Bateu asas do sertão 
Então eu disse adeus Rosinha 
Guarda contigo meu coração


Hoje longe muitas léguas 
Numa triste solidão
Espero a chuva cair de novo
Para eu voltar pro meu sertão


Quando o verde dos teus olhos 
Se espalhar na plantação 
Eu te asseguro não chores não, viu

Que eu voltarei, viu
Meu coração


When I look to the burning land
Like bonfires of Saint John
I asked to God in the sky, there
Why so much affliction? 

Which Brazier, which furnace
Not a single crop of plantation
Because of the dryness I lost my cattle 
Died thirst my stallion

Even the white wing 
Flew from the barren countryside
Then I said Farewell Rosie
Keep my heart at your side

When the green of your eyes
Spread over the plantation
Do not cry I assure you, see

I will return, see
My heart. 

A few notes, the northwest countryside is a very dry place, with very little rain, so people live a enduring life with a lot of povertry.

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## Brasil

Ariano Suassuna is great!!!!
Yes, he is one of the best, ever!

JCamilo, thanks for the translation of "Asa Branca".

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## Stewart

Aside from one Paulo Coelho novel (_The Alchemist - awful!_) the only other Brazilian author I can remember reading is Clarice Lispector. The book I read was _The Hour Of The Star_ but it has made me interested to look up a few more of the meagre titles available in English from her.

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## JCamilo

Dom Casmurro is among the most famous novels of Machado de Assis to the point that when we were kids it is a mandatory reading in school. As result... people start their reading life against Machado de Assis and not favorable to him. The book is a typical psychological romance- Bentinho the narrator is a forefather of HH from Lolita (except he does not tell us outrageous lies, but is confused by reality). I am not a big fan of Dom Casmurro but the image of Capitu and her eyes are among the finest creations of Machado de Assis.

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## Brasil

My readings are basically classic literature and classic philosophy, that's what I like the most.
*When I say classic literature, I mean*: the epic poems (Camões, Dante, the greeks...) and some novels (Brazilian literature and world literature).
*When I say classic philosophy, I mean*: Plato, Aristoteles and others (Locke, Descartes, Marx, Nietzsche, Sartre...) and also somethings about psicology, specially Freud (psycoanalisy's father).

*Sigmund Freud made a critic about Shakespeare*: The greatest english author was not so original because a lot of things he wrote were already known in some greek myths.
I accept Freud's critic uppon Shakespeare. However, Shakespeare translated the ancient myths to his own time and historical context. So, in some way, Shakespeare was original too. Furthermore Shakespeare was popular on his own time.

*Today, there are a excess of idealism* of the past when somebody says "Shakespeare was awesome and Coelho is awful". I am not saying Coelho is great, but he's as popular today as Shakespeare was and still is. 
I don't apreciate Coelho, but I must respect the million of people who does. He is the most famous brazilian writer today. 
*Machado de Assis is great*, the best, but most of people in the world don't know him. Yes, that's the truth, we must accept: Machado's texts is not for the majority of the world population. If we depends of Machado, the Brazilian literature would be forgotten. That's why I respect Coelho, he is Brazilian and he sells a lot of books. I don't like him, but it is irrelevant, million of people does.
*If a was english, I would be proud of J.K.Roling*. I don't care if somebody says it is a poor literature. Million of children are reading Harry Potter, that's important. The same I say about Coelho controversy. I am proud, cause he sell a lot of books and he is brazilian. Some brazilians says "Pelé is a awful person, racist, and etc..." But I'm proud of Pelé cause he is the best football player in history and he is brazilian. People always seach defects.

In Brazil, the *traditional professors* (the old ones) always say good things about Vinicius de Moraes, Chico Buarque, etc... But Raul Seixas, Renato Russo, Cazuza... are poor poets. What a shame say that!
I am portuguese teacher and literature student and *I'm also musician*. I usually listen to italian opera (and I understand the italian words), Chopin, Mozart, Beethoven... and I love it. I love Bossa Nova and Brazilian popular music too. And also I love rock and roll, jazz, blues, salsa, tango, bolero, tarantella, arabic music... I don't have any prejudice about art.
Renato Russo, for example, had a potent voice. His composition are full of simplicity, but beaufiful. The words of his songs made him a poet and a hero for a entire generation.
So, when someone says "Chico Buarque is great and Renato Russo is nothing" I must be angry. Vinicius de Moraes, Chico, Caetano were importants to a past generation, but Cazuza, Renato Russo and Raul Seixas were importants to the new generation. *The historical context is totally different and some people don't take this in consideration.* 

Shakespeare translated the ancient myth to his own time and context.
Renato Russo translated the angry, the sadness, the fears, and the love of the youth to his own context. *Renato Russo made a song composition uppon Camõe's sonnet. It is wonderful!*
Russo's song words have paradox, antithesis, synizesis, etc. He's a person who does art. Every human art has something to present, something important.

*People always idealize the past as perfect*: "The past language was beautiful, the way they spoke at the past was better, the past books was awesome, the past singers were wonderfull..." Yes, I agree but not only the past, our present too. We have good things today. Some people just apreciate the conteporanean literature when it seems like the past literature. *This is excess of tradicionalism and past idealism.*

Also, I'd like to say: *I don't belive in literary critics*.
Literature is art, right? So, how can someone define what is beautiful, what is creative, what is ugly, what is original...? This is subjective, so, it depend, it comes from the *personal taste*.
A totally different thing is: a philosophical critics. 
Philosophy is not art, so when a philosopher analasys a phylosophical work that kind of critic is objective. The same thing we can say about the science. The scientifical critic about a scientific work is "objective" (actually it trys to be). But *the literature (art) can not be as objective as phylosophy or science.* 
So, based also in Marx and Freud I say: *everything we say about literature is our personal taste, influenciated by the ideology and the personal formation.*

----------


## Inderjit Sanghe

> Sigmund Freud made a critic about Shakespeare: The greatest english author was not so original because a lot of things he wrote were already known in some greek myths.


Ah, darn, do not bring Profesor Fraud into the fray! I have little or no time for his Hellenization of our libidoes. You should read some of Nabokov's rants on Freud-they are hilarious.

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## Stewart

If anyone got children reading - most likely seven books at most, and little else - then it's the marketing Bloomsbury has put behind Rowling rather than Rowling herself.

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## Brasil

I have posted at the first page of this thread a translated version of Indios (Renato Russo's song). Now, I found a better thing on youtube.com

*Legiao Urbana live:* 
Indios, sung by Renato Russo with english subtitles (very rare thing):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tWc-WBfpVu4

Every person here can see and analisys if he is a poor punk singer or a great singer and poet.

Machado had a historical context.
Vinicius de Moraes had other historical context.
Renato Russo (leader of the Legiao Urbana) had other historical context.
Take this in consideration.
A lot of fans (millions, in fact) consider Russo as the greatest poet 
of the 80's generation.
But also important, at the same context, were Raul Seixas (70's) and Cazuza.
There is a few english versions of songs by Raul Seixas.
There is a movie about Cazuza's life.
Everyone can research in internet if wants to know more about.

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## Brasil

*English version of "Trem das Onze"* 
Raul Seixas (Salvador-Bahia, 1945  São Paulo-SP, 1989), was pop singer known as the prophet of the Apocalypse, but he didn't like this stereotype.
Also known for his anarchyst ideas. When Brazil was a ditator state, he was exiled. His musical style is a mix of rock and roll and folk music from Bahia.

This song here in particular is a kind of folk Brazilian music from the country.
*Morging Train, sung by Raul Seixas (2:37 min):*

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VH9y9AvWlfU

The original version (portuguese) makes a methaphora. 
It appears talking about the death
(train meaning death and travel meaning the jouney to heaven, hell or Hades)
So he sings:
"Don't need to carry valise (bagage) in the train
....who's gonna cry... and who is gonna stay?"



*Ideologia (Ideology) by Cazuza (with english subtitles):*

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nMHsBvVJdHE

Amazing video! It talks about all ideologies and the necessity to know what is the one that he (the poet) is looking for. But he doesn't know which one he must follow.
He was already infected by de HIV when he sung this song. That's why he sings:
"Now, my pleasure (sex) is life risk".
*Obs:* when he sings party (it is political party), power (it means political power), my dreams had gonna "sold" (not sole). The translation in this video is terrible, but the video is incredible, amazing art! Enjoy it!

Details about**: Cazuza was considered a rebel poet and singer.
He sang Bossa Nova, Samba, Blues, Rock, etc.
A kind of Rimbaud of our times.

*I don't need* to post here links to Tom Jobim, Chico Buarque, Gilbero Gil, Caetano Veloso, Marisa Monte, Vinícius de Moraes, Ivan Lins, etc... cause everybody already know that.
If you still don't know, be shame yourself! I reccomend imediately!
 :Smile:  

For who likes erudit music, I recommend:

*Heitor Villa-Lobos*, modernist Brazilian composer.
Search for the amazing "Tremzinho Caipira" (hillbilly train) and 
"As Bachianas Brasileiras" prepare yourself!

"O Guarani" by the Brazilian composer *Carlos Gomes*.

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## JCamilo

> *Sigmund Freud made a critic about Shakespeare*: The greatest english author was not so original because a lot of things he wrote were already known in some greek myths.
> I accept Freud's critic uppon Shakespeare. However, Shakespeare translated the ancient myths to his own time and historical context. So, in some way, Shakespeare was original too. Furthermore Shakespeare was popular on his own time.


Shakespeare was very original, but originality is not the creation of plots. Originality is how the story is told and Shakespeare, alone, created stories that basically replaceded in the western mind the archetypes that are supplied by the greek mythology. One man that is worth the entire culture developed by centuries and being this culture the most amazing culture of western world? That is because the quality of his text, the complexity. That is what give Shakespeare importance and keep him in our mind. Popularity (relative, Shakespeare was a popular theatre writer, not a popular writer since a dramaturgist was considered a second, if not third rate writer). 

*Today, there are a excess of idealism* of the past when somebody says "Shakespeare was awesome and Coelho is awful". I am not saying Coelho is great, but he's as popular today as Shakespeare was and still is. 
I don't apreciate Coelho, but I must respect the million of people who does. He is the most famous brazilian writer today. [/quote]

I do not understand you. You ask to leave Coelho out but you keep bringing him up. Anyways, Hitler was popular also. During the story of mankind several artists are popular during their lifetime while great genius lived under their shadow. Jorge Luis Borges only got famous in the 60's, Kafka decades after his dead, Emily Dickinson barely published while she was alive. Popularity is meanignless, a time lapse, an accident of fashion. Being popular does not say anything about quality. Democracy is an awful method to measure merit. 
Coelho is the most famous brazilian writer today when our writing culture have been dragged down and it is nowhere as stunning as during the Modernists period. And even if you think, Shakespeare wrote 500 years ago and I doubt people can reckon plots of Coelho as they can reckon characters of Shakespeare even without reading him. Not to mention the fact he is the writer that originated more movies, more songs, more paintings, etc. Influence is the only kind of "popularity" worth and two decades after Coelho his influence have been nill. 




> *Machado de Assis is great*, the best, but most of people in the world don't know him. Yes, that's the truth, we must accept: Machado's texts is not for the majority of the world population.


I do not know if I praise god because the idea that a writer wrote something that is equallly valuable for all the world's population is so outrageous that I think I would kill such man. 
But What make Machado no for the world population?? I understood and read him when I was 11. Are you telling me that the world is that uneducated and imbecile??




> If we depends of Machado, the Brazilian literature would be forgotten. That's why I respect Coelho, he is Brazilian and he sells a lot of books. I don't like him, but it is irrelevant, million of people does.


That is outrageous. Ridiculous! Bollocks.
Machado de Assis , founder the academy that Paulo Coelho fought to be accepted, wrote 100 years ago and still remembered. Wait until Paulo Coelho manages to be remembered being dead for so long to claim such non sense. And I doubt he will, because what make a text be remembered is the quality and this is something Machado will always have and Coelho will always lack. 
Do you think Coelho is the first best-seller success in the world? Where is Losang Rampa? Where is even Sidney Sheldon? Where was all the nobodies that sold much more books than Joyce or Faulkner?? They are forgotten. 
And, if Coelho didn't sold as much, they would find someone else to do so. It is a marketing principle. Explore the public. But finding someone as good as Machado. You must be joking. 




> *If a was english, I would be proud of J.K.Roling*. I don't care if somebody says it is a poor literature. Million of children are reading Harry Potter, that's important. The same I say about Coelho controversy. I am proud, cause he sell a lot of books and he is brazilian.


After she trying to sue someone for authoral rights when she didn't had a single original idea while Writing Harry Potter I would be ashamed about her. Just a ganancious twit. As being proud of Coelho, I would be proud of something worthless such as Machado de Assis. Or Rui Barbosa. Or Santos Dummont. Or Vital Brasil. Or all the great brazilians who actually showed a genius beyond everyone else and not just to be market success. Xuxa is more popular than him. Be proud about her. 




> Some brazilians says "Pelé is a awful person, racist, and etc..." But I'm proud of Pelé cause he is the best football player in history and he is brazilian. People always seach defects.


Such is life. Pele is not a racist. I dunno if he is an awful person. But he is actually the best footballer ever. He wasnt just popular. 




> In Brazil, the *traditional professors* (the old ones) always say good things about Vinicius de Moraes, Chico Buarque, etc... But Raul Seixas, Renato Russo, Cazuza... are poor poets. What a shame say that!


I am not an old professor and I will say: The reason they say that is because Vinicius, who is one of the best poets ever and Chico Buarque are head, shoulders, chest, crotch, feet and shadow about those 3 walking cliches. A shame is to compare the prentencious and hipocrites Cazuza and Renato Russo to them. Raul Seixas was at least honest in his hippie life. 




> I am portuguese teacher and literature student and *I'm also musician*. I usually listen to italian opera (and I understand the italian words), Chopin, Mozart, Beethoven... and I love it. I love Bossa Nova and Brazilian popular music too. And also I love rock and roll, jazz, blues, salsa, tango, bolero, tarantella, arabic music... I don't have any prejudice about art.
> Renato Russo, for example, had a potent voice. His composition are full of simplicity, but beaufiful. The words of his songs made him a poet and a hero for a entire generation.


He was not a poet. Writing lyrics for music may demand poetic language, but a poet is the one who writes poetry. I prefer the humble and most acceptable opinion of a real Poet that also wrote music, Leonard Cohen that the difference between the two works are enough. 




> So, when someone says "Chico Buarque is great and Renato Russo is nothing" I must be angry. Vinicius de Moraes, Chico, Caetano were importants to a past generation, but Cazuza, Renato Russo and Raul Seixas were importants to the new generation. *The historical context is totally different and some people don't take this in consideration.*


The one not taking it the context in consideration is you. Chico Buarque wrote during the militar dictadorship. Cazuza and Russo wrote protest musics during the democracy that they didn't helped to created. They are pop artists, playing for future MTV (which is one of the most banal things ever created by humankind) and while attacking the system, they are more than help to bend over for Globo and be the main theme of globo's sop operas. They had no spirit and their lyrics - which are basically portuguese versions of the english's punk in the 70's - are all false. 
It have nothing to do with who was in the past one or the recent one, but who was good enough or not. I am not a fan of Chico music, but the guy had a domain of language, symbolism and rythim that Renato Russo could only dream about. 




> Shakespeare translated the ancient myth to his own time and context.
> Renato Russo translated the angry, the sadness, the fears, and the love of the youth to his own context. *Renato Russo made a song composition uppon Camõe's sonnet. It is wonderful!*


He just wrote music for pop music. He wrote for Globo's characters. He didn't even realized what was happening in brazil while repeating the 70's jargons of Punk movement. Plus, I prefer the expression of surprise of Mallarme when a song offered as homage to sing one version of Mallarme poem. Mallarme just answered "But it was already musical". Transforming Camoes, above all, in music! Camoes already did it. 




> Russo's song words have paradox, antithesis, synizesis, etc. He's a person who does art. Every human art has something to present, something important.
> 
> *People always idealize the past as perfect*: "The past language was beautiful, the way they spoke at the past was better, the past books was awesome, the past singers were wonderfull..." Yes, I agree but not only the past, our present too. We have good things today. Some people just apreciate the conteporanean literature when it seems like the past literature. *This is excess of tradicionalism and past idealism.*


No, this is just good sense. There is 7000 years of literature. It is only natural that in 7000 years we are going to find more examples of good literature than the short space of today. Plus, chronology have nothing to do with quality. Right now there may be a great writer. But I doubt there is any as good as Dante. But when Dante was alive, he could say the best writer ever was alive and not in the past (and he almost didn't, amazing). 




> Also, I'd like to say: *I don't belive in literary critics*.


Too bad. Stop studing literature as you claim because study of literature is the pratice of literary critic (Or you are just reading ,not studying). Stop writing those long analyses, because they are the pratice of literary critic. Also stop lacking respect for guys who spent their entire life studing with depth and passion one objetc they loved. Also, do not ever read Borges, which transformed literary criticism a new form of art. Also, avoid a list of great writers, all of them dedicated to literary criticism. 




> Literature is art, right? So, how can someone define what is beautiful, what is creative, what is ugly, what is original...? This is subjective, so, it depend, it comes from the *personal taste*.


Literature is not only art. But creative is not subjective, if it is not created new, it is not creative. What is original it is not subjective either. 
What is beautiful or ugly is subjetive, but this is art appreciation. Qualification is something else, it is telling if something really achived the capacity to be beautifull while using the standards and techniques the work proposed. It is not as subjective. 





> A totally different thing is: a philosophical critics. 
> Philosophy is not art, so when a philosopher analasys a phylosophical work that kind of critic is objective.


That is new. Some philosophies are not even objective to be able to propose a model of objetive analyse. 




> The same thing we can say about the science. The scientifical critic about a scientific work is "objective" (actually it trys to be). But *the literature (art) can not be as objective as phylosophy or science.*


Considerable more than Philosophy because all artist use techniques. You can make technical analyses about every art work (not to mention the history of art) and those are objetive. 
I am sorry, but it is not a matter of taste what is good art or not. Just what you like or not. 




> So, based also in Marx and Freud I say: *everything we say about literature is our personal taste, influenciated by the ideology and the personal formation.*


Marx was an awful literary critic and so are Freud because they did exactly that. There is advice, listen to many critics, not just two, because if 100 critics agree about something and for similar reasons, something must be true there. And 100 critics in different contexts, so you will know they do not share the same ideology and they do not have the same personal formation. 
That is why Shakespeare is Shakespeare, there 300 years that he is acclaimed by a variety of individuals that anyone claiming it is a matter of personal taste, is not using their brain cells.

----------


## Brasil

Easy, be cool my friend! I'm not bringing P.Coe... back. He was just an example.
But Hitler was popular by force (ditatorial power) and the writer P.Coe... was popular by selling books. No one put a gun in the head of somebody to buy a book written by P. Coe. Very different, don't you think.

I don't know why, but the fact is: Machado is not so popular as Coe...
Unfortunately! I think both deserve to be popular. Machado is very good writer. The other one is maybe different, I don't know. Carismatic? Perhaps.
But the fact is: he sold a lot!

Losang Rampa and Sidney Sheldon are not Brazilians. Tell me a Brazilian best-seller? I know one.

At the time of Shakespeare, people shout at the central plaza calling to the show. Today we have advertising. What is the difference? "Marketing" is conteporanean factor. It does not make a writer good or bad, at all.

Lyric poetry at the beggining (Greece) was made for singing, not read. Also the minstrel and trobadours in Middle Age were singers. So, I consider all words into a song as poetry.

Don't make me laugh. Vinicius and Chico were also in mass-media at their times. If they were popular at the 90's, they were also in MTV. Just matter of historical context. Stop thinkig they are messiahs send by god to save the Brazilians of the ditator state.
Cesaria Evora had a video in MTV. Is she a poor singer?

For Dante (who lived in Middle Age) the best writer was Virgilio (from the old Roman Empire)

To analyse a poem is totally different of making critics, specially the way you make critics. 
To analyse is:
See graphic structure: how the poem is presented
See phonetic structure: rhythmic, enjabement, alliteration, etc
See semantic structure: style, figures of language, etc

You did not make a analysis. You're only saying "this is bad and this is good"
Again: "Beauty or ugly", "good or bad" is just a matter of personal taste. If you don't like, talk about other thing, something you like. Let me talking about what I like. Any debate about this topic will take the eternety. I'm not here for this purpose.

Now you has shown me that you don't even know what you're talking about.
You've said Marx was a literary critic? 
Never, my friend! Marx was a scientific critic (history and sociology). I know his work. His conception of "ideology" was in my work of my first graduation.

I am going to explain what a said: 
"based on Marx (who describe the mechanism of the ideology) I can say that all literary critic (not analysis) is based on personal taste (personal taste comes from the ideology and also from other factors).
"based on Freud I can say that all personal taste comes from the personal formation (and other factors, like the ideology as well).

Don't even think comparing philosophical and scientific analysis with literary analysis. Totally different things. Do not mix art with science. Art is subjective itself, science try to be objective.

Again, good or bad art is too subjective, just a matter of taste. 

You just search for objective reasons to justify your personal taste. This is just a game of words, there is nothing scientific, logic or exact to prove what you are saying. Try to read about logical mechanisms and you'll understand.

I , personally, think Tonico and Tinoco, L. Gonzaga, Alceu Valença, etc...were great poets of the Brazilian folk song. Maybe you say "their grammar was terrible, this is not poetry and they were caipiras (hillbilies) from the country". 
But when Machado invented new words or committed an "error" you say "he did a poetic license".

So, If you dislike my future post, please try to ignore. Talk about what you apreciate. I will post more about Russo, Cazuza, etc. Ignore my post and let foreign people know more about it and let them take their own view.

----------


## Brasil

*Legiao Urbana live:* 
Indios, sung by *Renato Russo* with english subtitles (very rare thing):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tWc-WBfpVu4

Ideologia (Ideology) by *Cazuza* (with english subtitles):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nMHsBvVJdHE

Morging Train, sung by *Raul Seixas* (2:37 min):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VH9y9AvWlfU

Obs: Coelho and Seixas wrote a lot of songs together.
For more details about Russo, Cazuza and Seixas, see the posts before (#35 and # 36) in this very thread.

----------


## JCamilo

> Easy, be cool my friend! I'm not bringing P.Coe... back. He was just an example.
> But Hitler was popular by force (ditatorial power) and the writer P.Coe... was popular by selling books. No one put a gun in the head of somebody to buy a book written by P. Coe. Very different, don't you think.


Hitler was not popular by force. He was popular by finding an idea and writing a book to represent it, using even democratic ways to make his party powerful and due to incridible charisma. They used very similar strategies - until today the raise of Nazi party is studied in Propaganda, Marketing and all as example of how selling an idea and applied in the mass media market... where is how popularity is won. 




> I don't know why, but the fact is: Machado is not so popular as Coe...
> Unfortunately! I think both deserve to be popular. Machado is very good writer. The other one is maybe different, I don't know. Carismatic? Perhaps.
> But the fact is: he sold a lot!


So? Until the XVIII Century there wasn't even a mass editorial market, a Writer was remembered due hiw quality. Virgil, Homer, Horace, Dante, etc didnt sell a lot. A lot of bad writers did and which one is meant to be remembered? Really, how many other writers from Dante's period do you remmeber? 




> Losang Rampa and Sidney Sheldon are not Brazilians. Tell me a Brazilian best-seller? I know one.


Err, Paulo Coelho selling lot is world wide phenomen, very few writers in the world sell as good as him. But he sells less than Mao Tsé, should we praise him for that? As I said, I would rather not sell a million like Paulo Coelho and write a story as great as The Alienist. 




> At the time of Shakespeare, people screen at the central plaza calling to the show. Today we have advertising. What is the difference? "Marketing" is conteporanean factor. It does not make a writer good or bad, at all.


So, why you keep saying "he sells book" which is a marketing phenomem? 
Also, as I said, Shakespeare was a popular theatre creator. He didn't even published his texts. He was not a popular writer. 




> Lyric poetry at the beggining (Greece) was made for singing, not read. Also the minstrel and trobadours in Middle Age were singers. So, I consider all words into a song as poetry.


Epic poetry also, all poetry was made to be sung at begining. And surprise, they stopped to be songs to be texts - Poetry is Not Music. They are two different things. 




> Don't make me laugh. Vinicius and Chico were also in mass-media at their times. If they were popular at the 90's, they were also in MTV. Just matter of historical context. Stop thinkig they are messiahs send by god to save the Brazilians of the ditator state.


Vinicius mass media ??? What are you talking about ? There was not even popular TV channels here when he started. He and most of the Bossa Nova group had to left brazil to make sucess and only in the 60's when he returned. Typical brazilian stuff, first out then inside. You like this. If Vinicius was absorved by The Mass Media (Globo mostly) it was because his past, unlike the sold out of the 80's. 
To finish, Vinicius themes are not rebelion against system - It was love, joy, beauty - He was a conservador. His discuss was not empty like pseudo-punks in the 80's. 
Chico was something special, when he started he was persecuted for daring to play in the festivals. He was an intelectual family and again, his attack was against the governament. 




> For Dante (who lived in Middle Age) the best writer was Virgilio (from the old Roman Empire)


Virgil was the best writer before him. Dante goes to Heaven, Virgil never. 




> To analyse a poem is totally different of making critics. Specially the way you make critics. To analyse is:
> See graphic structure: how the poem is presented
> See phonetic structure: rhythmic, enjabement, alliteration, etc
> See semantic structure: style, figures of language, etc


That is one of the atributions of a critic. 




> You did not make a analysis. You're only saying "this is bad and this is good"


I did not made an analyse of what? 




> Again: "Beauty or ugly", "good or bad" is just a matter of personal taste. If you don't like, talk about other thing, something you like. Let me talking about what I like. Any debate about this topic will take the eternety. I'm not here for this propose.


Dude, that is the bad about Paulo Coelho. Life is made of bad and good. We must deal with everything. And only because I dislike and disagree with you, this does not mean they affect my life or that I can not make critics about them. 




> Now you has shown me that you don't even know what you're talking about.
> You said Marx was a literary critic? 
> Never, my friend! Marx was a scientific critic (history and sociology). I know his work. His conception of "ideology" was in my work of my first graduation.


Marx and Hengels published a book with critics about art and literature. I do not think someone can be only one thing, if they sit in a table, analysed the history of art and literature (even the aesthetics) from the social point of view, I can call them literary critics because that is what matter here. 




> I am going to explain what a said: 
> "based on Marx (who describe the mechanism of the ideology) I can say that all literary critic (not analysis) is based on personal taste (personal taste comes from the ideology and also from other factors).
> "based on Freud I can say that all personal taste comes from the personal formation (and other factors, like the ideology as well).


Marx and Freud are extremelly biased individuals. Their ideologies dominated their live and conclusions. As I said, they are guilty exactly of that. 
But you seem to miss that I said: Everyone, included scientists, act like that. Not only literary critics. When you can trust literary criticism? When you search for more sources. Coleridge in the XIX and Borges in XX century share several conclusiion and views about literature and art despite having not the same ideology, formation, personal tastes. What you do to not fail in the opiniona makers? Seek more than one source, the knowledge that is shared among many can be more trusted. Go beyond Freud and Marx. 




> Don't even think comparing philosophical and scientific analysis with literary analysis. Totally different things. Do not mix art with science. Art is subjective itself, science try to be objective.


Art criticism is not art, Art is the studied object and Science can study subjetive objects as well. 
Philosophy is not always objective and they all depend in a leap of faith. Philosophy analyse is filled by "I think this is better because it is what I believe". Almost or even more than art. 




> Again, good or bad art is too subjective, just a matter of taste.


No sense. Good art is the one where you can analyse the use of techinique, the domain of skills. Bad art is the one where it is pauper. You are trying to prove yourself wrong despite hundred of years of art study pointing you that what good art is not a matter of taste. 




> You just search for objective reasons to justify your personal taste. This is just a game of words, there is nothing scientific, logic or exact to prove what you are saying. Try to read about logical mechanisms and you'll understand.


Dude, you use Freud and Marx. They are master of manipulating the conclusion to show up what they want. I do not think you are able to pinpoint when logic is being used.




> I , personally, think Tonico and Tinoco, L. Gonzaga, Alceu Valença, etc...were great poets of the Brazilian folk song. Maybe you say "their grammar was terrible, this is not poetry and they were "caipiras" (hillbilies). But when Machado invented new words or commited an "error" you say "he did a poetic license".


For example, they are not poets. But Tonico and Tinoco language was suited for the production they are using. I would not criticise them by using a perfect language or not. 




> So, If you dislike my future post, please try to ignore. Talk about what you apreciate. I will post more about Russo, Cazuza, etc. Ignore my post and let foreign people know more about and let them take their own view.


This is not your blog. This is a forum. People discuss with each other - And if you can claim anything you want, you better be read to listen what you do not want, Dr.Pangloss.

----------


## Joe G

I am also brazilian, however i live in the UK. Unfortunately i only have one brazilian book at home called "Cazuza"

----------


## Brasil

Analyse this:

*Legiao Urbana* live: 
Indios, sung by *Renato Russo* with english subtitles (very rare thing):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=tWc-WBfpVu4

Also, analyses the narration in "Faroeste Caboclo" and "Eduardo e Mônica". Describe the characters.



Ideologia (Ideology) by *Cazuza* (with english subtitles):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nMHsBvVJdHE

Analyse also the words of "Exagerado" and "Faz Parte do Meu Show" and "Codinome Beija-Flor", if you like love songs.



Morning Train, sung by *Raul Seixas* (2:37 min):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VH9y9AvWlfU

Obs: Coelho and Seixas wrote a lot of songs together.
For more details about Russo, Cazuza and Seixas, see the posts (#35 and # 36) in this very thread.

----------


## Brasil

I respect Jorge Amado, he is among the greats. But I don't apreciate him.
He's very pornographic. About this kind of reading, I prefer Nelson Rodrigues, but also I'm not very fan.

The best reading for me are political, philosophical, historical, sociological, and linguistic... I read a lot about other cultures, religions, as well.
So, in literature readings I seach for thouse kind of subjects. That's why I like the Divine Comedy, Odissey, Lusiadas...

About Brazilian literature, in my oppinion, *Ariano Suassuna* and *João Cabral de Melo Neto* were the best writers uppon the Brazilian northeast view.

And I apreciate very much "Literatura de Cordel". But some people may say "it's poor literature" cause the grammar is awful.
And I apreciate *Gilberto Gil*, but some people may say "it's not literature" cause it's sung, not read. However, the hymn, the ode, the rondo, the song and cantiga were considered literature at their times. 
But some people may say "Gilberto Gil is a poor poet", cause he has an acoustic show recorded in MTV.

----------


## Brasil

*The latin culture* is very rich in traditional forms of poems indeed. 
Francesco Petrarca (who developped the sonnet form is just one example).
The spanish, italian and portuguese literatures are rich in greek-latin inheritance. That is intrinsic in the language and inside the cultures of Italy, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Chile...

*The english language* has a very simple structure, a very very simple grammar. Compare the english grammar and the portuguese grammar, for example (I'm not saying english is a poor language). Portuguese grammar is very complex. 

*I speak also* italian, spanish, and french fluently, but with some
vocabularies limitations when I speak and a few grammar errors when I write cause I'm not native.
And I speak some basic sentences in
german, japanese, chinese mandarin, arabic and russian but I can't write. 
I know what I'm talking about. You can research or ask any linguistic:

*About Western languages*
Latin languages are more complex than the others.
German is the most difficult language, (for me, personaly).
English is the easiest language to learn and the most simple grammar.

*Eastern languages* (All of them are complex)
Japanese is very complex but easy to learn. It's totally differet of any western language.
Chinese mandarin grammar is very easy, but the phonetic is very complex
(there is subtle variations of high and low pitch)
Russian and arabic are complex too, each one on their own context.

*Since the begining*, the italians, spanish and portuguese people had their traditions base at greeks, romans and others. Anglo-germanics nations had influence from greek-latin too, but not so strong as romance language's speakers.

So, *Portugal had* a strong influence from the ancient greek-roman traditions. In addition, portuguese (people and language) had the
arabic influence for 350 years at Iberian peninsula.

*Brazil* (as Portugal's cologne) had a strong traditional greek-latin culture and arabic influence as well. In addition, Brazil have much more: the greatest native indian population in the globe, the african contribution and the immigrant culture (italians, germans, japaneses, leabanese...).
*São Paulo*, for example, has the biggest japanese population outside the Japan, in the world.

*Imagine this caldron of cultures!* 
That's the beauty of Brazilian arts like music, dance, literature, architeture 
(the city of Brasilia, for example), gastronomy, martial arts (Capoeira), etc.
A curious thing: there's no violence motivated by religion and different creeds.
The violence in Brazil is a social problem, not so different from many other countries.

So, *Brazilians have one of the greatest* ethinical and cultural diversity in the globe. The Literature from Brazil is as rich as its people.

*obs:* I'm saying that friendly, I'm not trying to be arrogant.
I apreciate all kinds of culture (erudit or popular, of all times): 
since the ancient Chineseses and Indians legends until the modern Hollywwod movies form US, and Bollywood movies from India);
since the Arabic tales ultil Machado de Assis' tales and novels;
since Greeks and Roman epics and dramas until Shakespeare's;
since Italian Opera, british rock and Brazilian Bossa Nova until conteporanean Brazilian singers: Djavan, Legião Urbana (group), Cazuza, Raul Seixas,
Zé Ramalho, Alceu Valença, Olodum, Ivan Lins...
Since the Beatles ultil the egyptian singer Amr Diab;
I love them all, in resume, I apreciate the cultures from all times and all
nations, without prejudice, and I consider myself as a cosmopolitan.

For everyone in São Paulo or who goes to São Paulo:
Visit the *Portuguese Language Museum*, at the Luz Station.
To Know more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_...guese_Language
(in english)

----------


## Brasil

ENGLISH----- PORTUGUESE

Present----- Presente 
I love------- eu amo
you love----- tu amas 
he loves----- ele ama
we love----- nós amamos
you all love--- vós amais
they love ----- eles amam

Past--------- Pretérito
I loved------- eu amei
you loved----- tu amaste
he loved----- ele amou
we loved----- nós amamos
you all loved--- vós amastes
they loved----- eles amaram

Future--------- Futuro
I will love------- eu amarei
you will love----- tu amarás
he will love----- ele amará
we will love----- nós amaremos
you all will love--- vós amareis
they will love----- eles amarão

So, I think English conjugation is very simple, almost no variation.
Now, look at the red letters in portuguese conjugation. That kind of variation is complex.
I've taken Portuguese grammar as example. The same I say about Portuguese is also for any neo-latin language.

----------


## Brasil

Compare:
English--------------Portuguese

I will fly------------------------eu voarei-----another possibility: eu vou voar
you may be flying--- -----------você pode estar voando 
they might have been flying-----eles podem ter voado----another possibility: eles estavam voando
I had to fly---------------------eu tive que voar
I can fly-----------------------eu posso voar------other possibility: eu sei voar
I have to fly--------------------eu tenho que voar
I must fly-----------------------eu devo voar

But:
I need to fly---------------------eu preciso voar
We need to fly------------------nós precisamos voar
he flies-------------------------ele voa
we fly--------------------------nós voamos
they fly------------------------eles voam

etc. etc. 

Follow me:
I would fly----------------------eu voaria
We would fly--------------------nós voaríamos
Etc...
Always "would" for every person (I, you, we, they...). There is no variation.

Now, look:
they might have been flying-----eles podem ter voado----another possibility:eles estavam voando
you might have been flying-------você pode ter voado----another possibility:você estava voando

English is a very practical language, that's why I like it.

----------


## Brasil

"Any language is practical if you have to speak it, read it, and write it".
- you're right! 

Sorry, I did not express my self as good as I should.

Practical language: It means English is easy to learn (the basic grammar) and easy to think. But English has a complex phonetical system!!!! I personally don't like my own accent in English  :FRlol:  
Really, I wish to have a London accent, for me, the most beautiful accent!

Portuguese is difficult to learn. Futhermore, all romance languages are very "figuratives" more than English, I belive.

Now look at this:
1- Eu sou doente (it is "I am sick" in Portuguese)
2- Eu estou doente (it is "I am sick" in Portuguese)

But the verb (in red) is different, so as the meaning:
1- means the sickness is my essence, like a name or a profession.
2- means I am sick but it will pass, it is just a ocasional state.

So, in Portuguese you have to say:
1- Eu sou John, eu sou professor, eu sou americano.
2- Eu estou doente, eu estou gripado, eu estou cansado.

In English, it is written and said:
1- I am John, I am professor, I am american.
2- I am sick, I am cold, I am tired.

The differences between "Eu sou/Eu estou" is a almost exclusive in Portuguese and Spanish. Other romance languages do not have this particularity:

Io sono John, Io sono qui (Italian)
Je suis John, Je suis ici (French)
Yo soy John, Yo estoy aquí (Spanish)
Eu sou John, Eu estou aqui (Portuguese)
I am John, I am here (English)



Other detail, the word *cold*  in English has two meanings: 1- a disease caused by a virus and 2- adjective of something that is not hot.

In Portuguese, cold is *frio* (frio means cold in the second definition). When you refers to the disease you have to say *gripe* (gripe is cold in the first definition).

We have in Portuguese the verb that means "to get a cold". It is gripar. See the conjugation at the Present:
Eu gripo, Tu gripas, Ele gripa, Nós gripamos, etc...
(=I get a cold, you get a cold, he get a cold, we get a cold...)

The word gripado is the past participle of the verb gripar.
The word gripar is the infinitive form.

If you are a female you have to say: Eu estou gripada
If you are a male you have to say: Eu estou gripado

English does not have declinations by male/female and singular/plural.
English article "a" in Portuguese can assume four forms: um, uma, uns, umas.
English article "the" in Portuguese can assume four forms: o, a, os, as.

That is why I think English is simple and easy. You don't have to conjugate verbs and there is (almost) no declination.

See how it is complex? And this is only one example!

I know, there are a lot of beautiful poems in English and they are very "figurative". Portuguese has figures of speech (as English) too, but in addition has a more complex grammar. Imagine! 

So, it is a hard thing to explain. If you knew portuguese it would be easier! But ask your husband about French.

French is a romance language too. You can make a debate with him.
Have fun! :Wink:

----------


## Brasil

Present----- Presente 
I love------- eu amo
you love----- *tu* amas 
he loves----- ele ama
we love----- nós amamos
you all love--- *vós* amais
they love ----- eles amam

English does not have a plural form of you

I have to define *vós* = all of you (or you all)

All romance languages have the plural form:
voi, vous, vosotros, vós (italian, french, spanish, portuguese)

"In English the same word can have a very different pronunciation and mean something very different." - Yes, but all languages I speak have this too. This is not an English particularity.

But Portuguese is easy to learn and speak the basic things. You can learn if you want it.

----------


## Brasil

Le 900 milliones de personas qui parla portugese, francese, espaniol, italiano, romaniano, etc. e mesmo le parlatores de anglese comprende un texto technic in interlingua sin studio previe. Illo tamben es relativemente intelligibile a eruditos parlatores de linguas germanic (germano, per exemplo) e slave (como le russo). 

Tell me if you have undestood it.

That is Interlingua (international auxiliary language)

My oppinion:
All the ocidental world must study Interlingua at school.

Know more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interli...n_illustration

----------


## JCamilo

I do not think Portuguese is very hard at all, neither english - But Portuguese is a more elaborated language with specific turn about of rules while english is a language more favorable for the flow of the text. Almost as if one is Prose and the other poetry but is just silly.

----------


## Brasil

Original:
Le 900 milliones de personas qui parla portugese, francese, espaniol, italiano, romaniano, etc. e mesmo le parlatores de anglese comprende un texto technic in interlingua sin studio previe. Illo tamben es relativemente intelligibile a eruditos parlatores de linguas germanic (germano, per exemplo) e slave (como le russo).

Translated
Nine hundred million people which speak Portuguese, French, Spanish, Italian, and Romanian, etc. and even English speakers can understand a technical text in interlingua without previous study. Also, it is relatively undestandable to erudit speakers of the germanic languages (German, for example) and Slavic languages (like Russian).

Votre français n'est pas mal! Je voudrais parler avec toi, moi aussi, je pense que le français est trés difficile et j'ai besoin de pratiquer.

A bientôt!

----------


## Brasil

ma preferisco l'italiano per che è una lingua più musicale.

But yes, I want to talk with you in French.

I don't know if it is allowed here, it is an English forum. Maybe someone protest against us!

Do you remember the rules?

Anyway, there is a French forum of Literature. I am a member too.

I'll try to keep contact, although my vacations will end and I will not have the time to write as much as I wrote here.

Let's see what future brings.
Nice to talk with you. :Wink:

----------


## JCamilo

> Really? Spanish and Portuguese always seemed to flow so wonderfully to me. English and German can sound so harsh at times, at least to me. Now, the harshest language I've ever heard is Mandarin and Cantonese Chinese. It sounds like the people are yelling at you when they're really just talking normally for them.


Spanish is a bit baroque. 
That makes me remember an anedote that Jorge Luis Borges told in a interview. He and Neruda are heads of the latin american literary world but they never liked much each other. After decades of little attacks they meet each other in the 70's, already very old. 
But the rivalirty remained. So Borges told that each other started to joke to not give an "opening" to the rival about not being able to write poetry anymore because spanish was wrong for such thing and they should only write in english from now on. They ended making a pact to never write poetry anymore but in english and praising the english poetry. Of course the pact was broken by both without any remorse.
Flow is a bit out, all languages have a flow, but English does seems more close to the oral universe, the order of the words in a phrase more loose... While portuguese uses an strong structure in the sentences, it is a more precise language when writen. 
Both of course flow wonderfully, that is why I said I was silly  :Biggrin:

----------


## Brasil

I'm also in a philosophy forum, but now unfortunately I will not have the time for write in forums.  :Bawling:  

As I said, my vacations is ending (tomorrow I'll work) and tonight I'll have class.

Maybe I can give you my e-mail and we can practice our French.

Ça va?


My compliments for you and your husband.

au revoir

----------


## JCamilo

> I didn't know Borges and Neruda didn't like each other. Both were wonderful writers, of course, but I do prefer Neruda's poetry.


Borges had a fame as supporter of the militar dictadorships in Argentina didn't painted him a good light for Neruda. In other hand, Borges already disliked the communist sittuation in Russia, which he saw as destructive, so...
Also, there is funny dispute about Walt Whitman interpretation  :Tongue:  
Some claim that the "rival" of the Borges in the Alleph is a mockery of Neruda (Who became famous faster than Borges) and I know Borges have called him a second-rate romantic poet. 
I also agree that Borges poetry is far from great as his prose. But I would think that the true heir of Whitman is Fernando Pessoa, superior to both of them in poetic terms.

----------


## Brasil

For me:

the most poetical language is French.

the most musical languages are:
- Italian (opera, for example), Laura Pausini is a great pop singer and another example.
- Spanish (salsa and bolero from Cuba), (tango from Argentina)...
- Arabic (Amr Diab, for example).

Portuguese has a bit of all thouse languages.
Try to listen to a Portuguese Fado, a Brazilan Bossa Nova or other things like: Ivan Lins, Milton Nascimento, Djavan...
Go to youtube.

English is beutiful too. I can not imagine a best language for the blues and the rock and roll.

About the French forum, I do not know if I can post here, so seach on Google: etudes litteraires or litterature forum en français.
You will find me there.

----------


## JBI

The most poetic language is French? hmm strange choice, but it doesn't seem to make sense. Theoretically speaking, the best language for poetry is probably the one with the most inflection, since it enables the most clever wording, and play with sounds. That is why, in terms of mechanics, Anglo-Saxon poetry is so fun to read. That is also why Dante is so great to read, because of his metre. Tennyson is probably the true master of sound and metre in its every form in the English tradition, which I think is the reason why he still remains famous. 

But seriously, I would take Japanese even over French for poetic language.

----------


## Brasil

A romance language, of course!

Just joking :Wink:  

But there is a good reason for the name!

Now, more about Brazilian literature:
The pediod of the _Romantismo_ (firt momment: 1825 - 1840): 

Example of _Romantismo_:
The epic poem "I Juca Pirama" written by *Gonçalves Dias*, tells the history about a indian warrior (from the Tupi).
It is a poem divided in ten chants.
verse metre: alexandrinos (12) and decassílabos (10)

----------


## Brasil

*Federative Republic of Brazil* 
Capital: Brasília
Language: Portuguese
Anthem: Hino Nacional Brasileiro (see on youtube)

*See pictures on Google-images for:*
drinks: Caipirinha, guaraná, coffe, all kinds of Brazilian fruits for juice.
foods: Feijoada, Moqueca, Churrasco 
other things to eat: pão de queijo (cheese bread), açaí.


*Music -* See on youtube:
rhytms: Chorinho, Samba, Bossa Nova, Forró (Baião/ Xote), Frevo...
male singers: Tim Maia, Milton Nascimento, Djavan, Raul Seixas, Cazuza, Gilberto Gil, Caetano Veloso, Luis Gonzaga, Alceu Valença, Zé Ramalho.
female singers: Maria Rita, Elis Regina, Marisa Monte, Cássia Eller.
Pop groups: Legião Urbana, Titãs, Paralamas do Sucesso.
Classical composers: Villa-Lobos, Carlos Gomes.
Popular Brazilian Music composers: Tom Jobim, Cartola, Pixinguinha, Chico Buarque, Toquinho & Vincícius de Moraes, Tonico & Tinoco.


*Thinkers*
Theology: Leonardo Boff
Pedagoy: Paulo Freire

*Visual Arts*
sculptor: Aleijadinho

Painters:
Victor Meireles, Pedro Américo, Anita Malfatti, Tarsila do Amaral, Candido Portinari

*Other things*
martial arts: Capoeira, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
Idols: Ayrton Senna, Pelé
Historic figure: Santos Dumont (creator/ inventor of the airplane and many other inventions)

*things to be proud:* 
- the beauty of our nature (beaches, forests, animals) - indeed that's the main theme of our Anthem. Our National hymn is not only a militar chant, but it is a declaration of love. A very rich poetry;

- our participation and victories at the Second World War against the Nazi (especially in Italy, where our tropes were in largiest number); 

- our harmonic and pacific way of life between any religion and any ethinic group;

- our literature, theatre and cinema;

- our athletes: espacially in voley, basket, football (soccer) and some individual arrangements as riding, sailing, marathon...

- the architecture of Brasilia (by Oscar Niemeyer), the nature of Rio de Janeiro, the notheast folk culture, the cosmopolitan life of São Paulo, the picturesque weather of south, the Pantanal, the Rainforest.

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## Brasil

*O Alienista* (the alienist, I do not know how to translate it) - 
A doctor, owner of a hospice, discover a pattern to classify madness: everything that is beyond the normal is madness. 
The doctor put into his clinic some people who have such behaviour. 
Later, almost all the city people are hospitalized, and the city almost empty, because he discovered that almost all people have this pattern of behaviour. 
But he thinks "the majority must provides the standard of behaviour". Then he begins to consider mad the "balanced people". He gives freedom to the mad ones to submit the minority "healthy" of individuals to an intensive treatment. 
In the end, all are healed, but the doctor hospitalizes himself.

That was just a resume about a book of *Machado de Assis.* 
Machado was very ironic and original in his works. 
His books have a fine sense of elegance and sarcasm, both working together.

*Machado de Assis is read by several personalities, among them Woody Allen. 
For those who want to read O Alienista and other stories, I recommend the book: 
50 stories of Machado de Assis, selected by John Gledson.*

*John Gledson is Professor of Brazilian Studies at the University of Liverpool.*

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## Brasil

*Machado de Assis* (Rio de Janeiro, 1839 — Rio de Janeiro, 1908), in his book *The Posthumous Memoirs of Bras Cubas*, created a currious narrator: Bras Cubas is a ghost (a deceased) that comes from the grave to tell his own history.

- Bras Cubas (Narrator): I am a "deceased author", not an "author deceased" reporting his memoirs, and more, describing his own delirium.
(sorry about the translation, maybe it will make no sense in English)

Often, the narrator drives his words to the reader: "Come with me, dear reader, let's see this little house..." It's a common thing in Machado's books.

So, the narrator says a curious detail about himself:
Perhaps, the frankness (meaning: sincerity) that I expose and stress my mediocrity alarmes the reader ; I warn that openness (=frankness, sincerity) is the first virtue of a deceased. In life, the look of view, the contrast of interests, the greed of people... oblige (requires) us to silence the old rags, disguise the tears and passions, ... because in that case, you can save the shame, which is a painful feeling, and hypocrisy, which is a horrible addiction. But in death, what a difference! What freedom!

I think that is a photography of our society till today. Even now, in this very forum, we're trying to hide the poorness of our speech, or in Bras Cubas narrator's word: "to silence the old rags".

*Quincas Borba*, a philosopher character from another Machado's novel, appears also in this book, the Posthumous Memoirs, talking to the living Bras Cubas (not to the "deceased author" and narrator, but to the living one). 
So, in this intertextuality, we can see a character (Quincas Borba), as a living person with a past, a full history (from the homonym novel), talking to another character (Bras Cubas) as a living person, and all this scene is narrated by the "deceased Bras Cubas".

So, I think (as Bras Cubas did after his death) we must apart ourselves from the things which we think we know, then in fact, we will have a little idea about what life means. You don't need to wait for your death to do that (as Bras Cubas did), you can do that while you are reading this text (or latter, but not to late).

My advice for all:
Learn another language, know more about other cultures, travel a lot, search for other readings, study philosophies, analyse your life before it is too late...
Open your eyes for the unknown.

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## Brasil

In *Lusitania* (today Portugal) there were two ethinic groups living: Celtics and Iberics. The language spoken was a mix of two languages: Celtic + Iberic = Celtiberic.

Then, began the foreign invasions.
- Came *the first invasion*: Ligore
- *The second invasion*:Phoenicians (they came from where we call today Lebanon). The Phoenicians were sailors and they founded a port in Lusitania, called "Porto Cale", today Porto City, north of Portugal (indeed, the name of the country came from the name of the old port founded by the Phoenicians sailors).
- *The third invasions* came from Greece. The greeks were sailors as well. So, Since the begining, the tradition of sailing became very familiar to the Lusitan people.

Until that moment, the language was a mix of Celtiberic + Ligore + Phoenicians + Greek.

- Then came to Lusitania the most important influence, the Latin (Roman Empire invasion). Latin is the basic structure of any Romance language.
- After the fall of the Roman Empire, came the Visigoths. So, Germanic became another influence.
- Another invasion came: Arabs (called Moors). They were Islam (Muslims) - for 300 years in Iberic Peninsula. A Great contribution in architecture, language, sciences and agriculture. 
- The book *Os Lusíadas* (Lusiads) by *Camões* is a epic poem, it tells about the war between the kingdom of Portugal (Catholic) and the Muslims. But the main theme of Os Lusíadas is the navigation around the African continent trying to find a new route to India. The Portuguese sailors became heros in that poem (Indeed, Portugal was the first european nation, the political power became centralised and the Portuguese people, with the tradition of sailing and the strategic geographical position, went to the sea before anyone). Till today, the Fado (Portuguese folk song) have the sea as main theme. In songs, girls cry for their husbands in sea, and the feeling is "saudade" (= to miss something).

- So until this moment, the Portuguese language were a mix of Celtiberic + Ligore + Phoenicians + Greek + Germanic + Arabic; and the main structure is the Latin language.

*Colonization of Brazil by the Portuguese people:*
Some words entered into the Portuguese language:
-From Tupi-Guarani (one of the groups of languages, spoken by native indians in Brazil);
-From Bantu (came from the African people);

*Independece of Brazil:*
- The languages of the immigrants (Italian, German, Japanese) gave some words to Portuguese language. New words came especially from the Italian.
- French was the language that had the greatest influence at the time.

*Today:*
Portuguese has influence from English, in some words (about information technology, marketing terms, etc)

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## Brasil

*Brazilian paintings*

Victor Meireles:



Rodolfo Amoedo:



Anita Malfatti (Brazilian Modernism):



Candido Portinari:



Tarcilia do Amaral:



Tarcilia do Amaral:



Tarcilia do Amaral:




*Brazilian Sculpture and Architecture*

Aleijadinho (Brazilian Barroque and other styles):


Aleijadinho:

Most famous work by Aleijadinho: The 12 Prophets 
Where: Minas Gerais


Oscar Niemeyer:

(Brasília architecture)

Oscar Niemeyer:

(Cathedral of Brasília)

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## sofia82

> *Brazilian paintings*
> 
> Oscar Niemeyer:
> 
> (Cathedral of Brasília)


This is amazing! A modern architecture?!

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## Brasil

Yes, at the time it was polemic. The Catholic Church did not want to celebrate inside that church, but today it is one of the symbols of the Brasília city and Oscar Niemeyer work.

know more about his work and life:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Niemeyer
There are amazing pictures there.



*For other Brazilian personalities:*
Heitor Villa-Lobos, classical music composer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjDZU...eature=related
Listen to Villa-Lobo's Trenzinho Caipira (Hillbilly Train) one of the most beautiful compositions of the maestro. 
Also, listen to the Bachianas Brasileiras:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_06B1...eature=related

Alberto Santos Dumont, an early pioneer of aviation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santos_Dumont

Paulo Freire, an educator and an influential theorist of education:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paulo_Freire

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## Brasil

In the twenty-first century stereotypes prejudiced as those shown in the film *Hulk*, destroy the image of Brazil. 

1 - Why always show the slums instead of showing the beauty of Brazil? 

2 - The factories in Brazil go through a rigorous process of review. The hygiene is the most important point. The products made in Brazil are of excellent quality. But the factory was dirty in the movie! 

3 - No one, not even the Brazilian army has authorization to enter into a shantytown. In Brazil, there are laws on the quality of life and personal freedom. Only the police of Rio has permission to invade a shantytown, even then, only in extreme cases. But the Hulk movie shows the American army invading the Brazilian territory and shooting with a firearm inside a shantytown. Absurd!
The U.S. army has no authorization, no right, and even he had the right, he has no strategy for that kind of mission.

 :Flare:

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## JCamilo

Seriously? The only negative thing there was the general saying "Search for a white man" , which make us wonder if he thinks brazil is in africa.
Other than that, 
Rocinha is paceful, they consider in the same movie New York a more tense place. The fabric is a typical low level fabric, it was not abotu Brazil (since it was only merchandasing). 
Look, they use missiles in a University Campus in the USA. The Army if that movie is clearly a comic book army, they do everything wrong, not related to us (brazilians). And anyone can enter in a "favela", it is a public area. It is the ilegal traffic bosses who keep you away and really, the american army is considerable more nice than what we showed in Tropa de Elite.

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## Brasil

What about the U.S army invading the Brazilian territory?
If it was real, the Brazilian army could attack them, cause it is invasion of territory. In the real life, less than this could start a war!

Ufortunatelly, people around the world maybe do not undestand the movie as the same way you undestood. So, they will judge Brazilian factories as dirty.
Furthermore, that factory in Hulk movie (in real life) is in Toronto, Canada (not Brazil). I've just watched now a documentary and interview with the director. The scenes in New York streets are in truth Toronto too. 
But peolple in world that didn't see the documentary and don't know much about Brazil will think all factories here are dirty like that in movie. 
Very serious: in the movie, a North-american man drink a Brazilian juice and fall (maybe sick, maybe dead). The movie can make damages in Brazilian international business. We export juice with quality, but the movie's message is "Brazilian juice is produced under no control". The movie lies. It is insane!

But I agree with you in one point: they said "search for a white man" and that was terrible!

White North-americans usually think they are the only caucasians. But in truth, an Arabian, an Iranian, a Spanish, an Italian, a Portuguese... are caucasians too. Not just english, russian and german people are caucasians.
In resume, all people from Europe and their descendants and all people from Middle East and their descendants could be considerated caucasians.

The North-americans use the term in a wrong interpretation because of their prejudice.
But it does not make me upset. What is the good of being a white person? And what is the bad of being black, yellow or red? It does not make difference!
All human people have the same origin. The colour of skin does not matter!

It does not even deserves comentaries, cause their way of classification came from the XIX century. It is totally overtaken. And I think you agree with me in this point.
Nowadays, scientists discovered there is only one race: human race.

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## JCamilo

> What about the U.S army invading the Brazilian territory?
> If it was real, the Brazilian army could attack them, cause it is invasion of territory. In the real life, less than this could start a war!


Unless there was autorization from the brazilian governament, but do you notice the US Army is the villain in the movie? They do several wrong things in the movie, even from the point of view of North Americans. They put in risk civilians all the time, they are lame (I mean, Banner is a lonely guy who is barelly dressed and yet manages to cross fronteirs from one side to another all the time, to enter in contact with everyone and everybody and they only get a clue with gamma poisoining?) Trully, they are so comic book that first part make me think of Incrivel monstro Trapalhão. 




> Ufortunatelly, people around the world maybe do not undestand the movie as the same way you undestood. So, they will judge Brazilian factories as dirty.
> Furthermore, that factory in Hulk movie (in real life) is in Toronto, Canada. I've just watched now a documentary and interview with the director, thats how I know that. The scenes in New York streets are in truth Toronto too. But peolple in world that don't know that detail and don't know much about Brazil will think all factories here are dirty like that in movie.



And they will think that all US Generals are corrupt, insane and bomb their universities like the one in the movie? Fact is the writers of those new marvel character are very anti-governament. 





> Very seriously: in the movie, a North-american man drink a Brazilian juice and fall (maybe sick, maybe dead). The movie can make damages at Brazilian international business. We export juice with quality, but the movie's message is "Brazilian juice is produced under no control". The movie lies.


The message is "US ARMY produces monsters and care little for the life or civilians". 





> But I agree with you in one point: they said "search for a white man" and that was terrible!
> 
> White North-americans usually think they are the only caucasians. But in truth, an Arabian, an Iranian, a Spanish, an Italian, a Portuguese... are caucasians too. Not just english, russian and german people are caucasians.
> In resume, all people from Europe and their descendants and all people from Middle East and their descendants could be considerated caucasians.
> 
> The North-americans use the term in a wrong interpretation because of their prejudice.
> But it does not make me upset. What is the good of being a white person? And what is the bad of being black, yellow or red? It does not make difference!
> All human people have the same origin. The colour of skin does not matter!
> 
> ...


It is not about race, but dumbness. I mean, they could have arrested Luana Piovani with that description.

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## Brasil

Very good! :FRlol:  
But only if Luana Piovani was man. 
"Search for a white man", he said, remember?

But what Luana Piovani would be doing in a favela? Recording a comercial, posing for pictures?

About the movie:
This time I hope you are right and I hope people don't see Brazil as it is shown in that movie.
I agree with you "the US Army is the villain in the movie". But I still worry. Usually, people don't see like that. I saw several sites in internet saying Michael Moore's Fahrenreit 9/11 is false and he is hipocrit. Still a great number (40%) of Americans support war in Iraq and belive it is for the good of Iraquian people. They usually belive in their governement and in their army without questions. They judge the documentary false. But when a comic movie says "In Brazil people live in trees with monkeys... what ever..." they belive. I've already heard commentaries like that.

You know, the Brazilian stereotype of rainforest and favelas exist. 
Brazil is not just a jungle, but exist people that really think that. There are Americans that ask we if monkeys enter into our homes. That is very sad.

And Brazil is not just favelas. In truth, less than 7% of São Paulo is favela.
Sure, we have problems, but all the world has. And we have good things too! Unfortunately, the beauties of Brazilian culture are almost unknown for the majority of population.

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## JCamilo

She is 1,80 meters, they could think she was a man (plus, they are clueless, they could arrest Luana Piovani). And she would be buying drugs of course. Or maybe just lost because she is as dumb as pretty. 

Just this month, in italy there was a publication saying Brazil is the future country of the world. Plus, the majority of Victoria Secrets Models are Brazilians (I mean, how dumb was that "white man", the most famous brazilian in the world is Giselle Bunchen and the other, Paulo Coelho, is hardly not white.They could have said "kick a ball to him, if he is clumsy he is not brazilian - and , for god sakes, they had pictures of him. It should have "search for THIS guy")
That was hardly a negative vision - The brazilians in the favela do not react to the invasion, there is not firearms but americans, Banner manages to live there in peace... I would say those are the nicest favelas ever (not to mention how clean and interesting archyteture wise...)

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## Scheherazade

> the most famous brazilian in the world is Giselle Bunchen


I beg to differ... We cannot disregard the Brazilian football team so easy - especially at the expence of a model.

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## Brasil

Course, Villa-Lobos, Tom Jobim, Jorge Amado... are importants.
But, I think, Camilo refers to Gisele and Paulo Coelho as most current.

People who love erudit music, Bossa or Literature is very rare. But everybody know a little about Gisele and about the Football Team cause they are current in mass media.

I would like to propose the return to the matter on literature and general art topics.


Good day for all

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## JCamilo

Yes, Giselle as living person. Only Pele would do soemthing different, and I doubt she would be less famous even to Villa-Lobos or Jorge Amado. But Fame is not the same as importance and I think it is a very suited merit for a model. 

As the footbal team, of course, Football is almost synounimous with Brazil, but just look that picture, Kaka and Ronaldinho Gaucho, the two most famous players of that picture are not as famous as Bunchen. Heck, they are less famous than Beckham  :Biggrin:

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## Brasil

*Capoeira* was born as martial art at the colonial times, but nowadays it is also a dance and a game.
Capoeira was born especialy in Salvador-Bahia, but also in Rio de Janeiro-RJ and Recife-PE (not at the rain forest as most foreign think).


(that is the real map of Brazil, some maps in English are wrong)

Some Capoeira songs are full of religious references (Catholic and Umbanda). 
Most of Brazilians are Catholics, however Umbanda is the real Brazilian religion, cause it was born here. 
*Umbanda* is a kind of Catholicism mixed with African spiritism (Candomblé) and influences from native indians beliefs.
The *Oxirás* are the gods of Candomblé, and they are also in Umbanda. Each person has his own Orixá.

To see the Pantheon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orisha


Now, I'll post a Capoeira song's lyric as example of folklore:

Eu não sou daqui
(Marinheiro só) ----> the chorus reply each verse with "echo"
Eu não tenho amor 
(Marinheiro só)
Eu sou da Bahia 
(Marinheiro só)
De São Salvador
(Marinheiro só)
O marinheiro, marinheiro
(Marinheiro só)
Quem te ensinou a nadar 
(Marinheiro só)
Ou foi o tombo do navio 
(Marinheiro só)
Ou foi o balanço do mar

Translation:
I'm not from here 
(Lonely sailor) 
I have no love 
(Lonely sailor) 
I am from Bahia 
(Lonely sailor) 
From San Salvador 
(Lonely sailor) 
Oh sailor, sailor 
(Lonely sailor) 
Who taught you to swim 
(Lonely sailor) 
Or it was the fall of the ship 
(Lonely sailor) 
Or it was the balance of the sea 

Obs: the sailor is also a reference to Umbanda beliefs.

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## Brasil

An anthology of short stories by *Machado de Assis* will be published in Britain in 2008. 

Publisher: Bloomsburry. 
Translation: Professor John Gledson, from the University of Liverpool.

 :Smile:

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## Camilo Viveiros

Machado de Assis - Antero de Quental

I was wondering if there is evidence of the influence or awareness of Machado de Assis (1839-1908) of the work of Antero de Quental (1842-1891) and visa versa? Both writers popularized Realism. Although their national and ethnic origins as well as their political aspirations differed, eventually both expressed types of social pessimism. Quental became nihilistic and self-destructive while Machado de Assis articulated skepticism about the caliber of human morality.



For ten years from 1881-1891, following Machado de Assis period of writing Romantic poetry from 1856-1880, they both were important Realist literately figures, although on different continents. I looked for information about their awareness and thoughts on each others work but I have not found anything. Does anyone know what they thought of each others work and if they had any contact between 1881-1891?


Thank you for your assistance.

Camilo Viveiros

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## JCamilo

It would be very odd if Machado was unaware of him, and while Machado main influence aare the french realists, I would search in the recent publications about Machado due the 100 years and his colection of letters. Are you in Brazil?

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## Brasil

Facts:

- The Brazilian book publishing market is bigger than that Italian, with more than 50 thousand new titles each year.

- The National Library of Rio de Janeiro, since 1910 located in the Avenida Rio Branco, is the *eighth largest national library in the world*, has a collection of 8 million pieces.


About the literature in portuguese language:

- The North American critic Harold Bloom in his book, Genius:A Mosaic of One Hundred Exemplary Creative Minds *José Saramago* (Portuguese writer, Nobel laureate, author of Blindness) is considered "the most gifted novelist alive in our times".

- The American critic Harold Bloom considers *Machado de Assis* (Brazilian novelist, founder of the Brazilian Academy of Letters) one of the 100 biggest geniuses of literature of all time (up to the point of considering it the best black writer of western literature).


Personal oppinion:

But for me, does not have that skin color thing. Harold Bloom is a little ethnocentric. *Machado* is the best novelist of XIX century. 



And in my personal oppinion, *Luis de Camões* is the greatest poet of all time!

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## Brasil

*Description:* Porto Seguro, Island of Vera Cruz, Brazil, 1 May 1500  Letter from Pêro Vaz de Caminha to the King of Portugal, Manuel I. This is the first document describing the land and people of what became Brazil. It was written at the very moment of first contact with this new world. Pêro Vaz de Caminha was an official who had been commissioned to report on the voyage of the India-bound fleet commanded by Pedro Álvares Cabral. The Letter is a unique document because of the facts it narrates, the quality of its description of the people and territory and its account of cultural dialogue with a people unknown in Europe up to that time. *It is rich in detail and shrewd observations that make us feel we are eyewitnesses of the encounter.* Pêro Vaz de Caminha started his Letter on 24 April and finished it on 1 May, the date when one of the vessels of the fleet sailed for Lisbon to announce the good news to the King.



When you read the Letter, it seems you are there, at that time, looking the indians with surprise. Fantastic!
I'm trying to find a English translation of the letter, cause it is really amazing. Untill there, this is the Modern Portuguese version:
http://www.cce.ufsc.br/~nupill/literatura/carta.html

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## weltanschauung

ainda nao acredito que paulo coelho e jorge amado estao nesta lista. que horror. machado de assis devia estar isolado em primeiro lugar e voce nem ao menos colocou manuel bandeira na lista! nem a chata da clarisse lispector.

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## Heteronym

> Compare:
> I will fly------------------------eu voarei-----another possibility: eu vou voar
> they might have been flying-----eles podem ter voado----another possibility: eles estavam voando
> you might have been flying-------você pode ter voado----another possibility:você estava voando


I have to disagree about some of your translations. _Eu vou voar_ is surely better translated as _I'm going to fly._ This tense implies an action that is about to happen or that is going to happen. In _eu voarei_, you're expressing a future possibility. I will fly... if... the weather is fine, if the airplane is working, etc. When you say _eu vou voar_ you have very little doubt you'll do it, it's practically a done deal.

_They might have been flying_ does not mean any of the translations you give. _Eles estavam voando_ is translated as _they were flying,_ both use the gerund to denote a continuous action in the past. Eles podem ter voado is translated as _they might have flown,_ it's an action that has stopped and that occurred in the past. _They might have been flying_ is actually _eles podem ter estado a voar._

_You might have been flying_ is the same as above, with a different pronoun.

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## ennison

This has been so far a very interesting thread for me and I will have to read through it again slowly. Having a light shone on areas where one is rather ignorant is .... Enlightening. Now there's a fellow stuck for words.

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## quidoftullamore

I bought an old paperback of Gabriela, Clove and Cinnamon by Jorge Amado at a used bookstore a few months ago. Having never read much Brazilian literature before, I finished the book in a short amount of time and found it pretty endearing. The film version (the 70's one), which I watched shortly after finishing the novel, was OK, but it seemed to me that the movie, as well as several reviews that I read, seemed to either push aside or miss completely the more compelling idea of the book. Does anyone else out there who read it understand what I mean?

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## JCamilo

The book is more complex, but the movie is more a result of the huge success of a soap opera by globo from the second half o 70's, which made Sonia Braga a huge star (you see, she is also Gabriela in the movie).

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## quidoftullamore

Gabriela, sempre Gabriela. 

I did like the song in the movie! haha

I'm curious what your thoughts about the novel are?

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## JCamilo

Even the music was the music of TV soap opera opening. 

I am not a huge fan of Jorge Amado, I think he is too heavy handed on his novels, sometimes adding too much political -social elements derivative from social based novels from Brazil northeast literature, damaging the surrealistic feeling, except when he brings his, often excellent, female characters.

----------

