# Reading > Religious Texts >  Do muslims love Jesus (peace must be upon him)???

## lover of jesus

Jesus in Islam 
Here is a picture of what the Holy Quran portrays of a good Christian: 
"...AND NEAREST AMONG THEM IN LOVE TO THE BELIEVERS WILT THOU FIND THOSE WHO SAY, "WE ARE CHRISTIANS": BECAUSE AMONG THESE ARE MEN DEVOTED TO LEARNING AND MEN WHO HAVE RENOUNDED THE WORLD. AND THEY ARE NOT ARROGANT." HOLY QURAN 5:82
WE MUSLIMS BELIEVE; 
THAT JESUS WAS ONE OF THE MIGHTIEST MESSENGERS OF GOD, 
THAT HE WAS THE CHRIST, 
THAT HE WAS BORN MIRACULOUSLY - WITHOUT ANY MALE INTERVENTION, 
THAT HE GAVE LIFE TO THE DEAD BY GOD'S PERMISSION, 
AND THAT HE HEALED THOSE BORN BLIND AND THE LEPERS BY GOD'S PERMISSION. 
IN FACT NO MUSLIM IS A MUSLIM IF HE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS!"
Muslim does not take the holy name of Jesus, in his own language, without saying Hazrat Eesa (meaning revered Jesus) or Eesa alai-hiss-salaam i.e. ( Jesus peace be upon him). Every time the Muslim mentions the name Jesus (pbuh) without these words of respect, he would be considered disrespectful, uncouth or barbaric. 

In the Holy Quran Jesus (pbuh) is mentioned by name five times (5x) more than the number of times the prophet of Islam is mentioned in the Book of God. To be exact - twenty five time as against five. For example: 
"..WE GAVE JESUS THE SON OF MARY CLEAR SIGNS AND STRENGTHENED HIM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT" HOLY QURAN 2:87 
"..O MARY! GOD GIVETH THEE GLAD TIDINGS OF A WORD FROM HIM: HIS NAME WILL BE CHRIST JESUS, THE SON OF MARY.." HOLY QURAN 3:45 
"..CHRIST JESUS THE SON OF MARY WAS (NO MORE THAN) AN APOSTLE OF GOD.." HOLY QURAN 4:171 
"..AND IN THEIR (the previous Prophets') FOOTSTEPS WE SENT JESUS THE SON OF MARY.." HOLY QURAN 5:49 
"AND ZAKARIYA AND JOHN, AND JESUS AND ELIAS: ALL IN THE RANKS OF THE RIGHTEOUS:" HOLY QURAN 6:85 
JESUS - HIS TITLES 
Though Jesus is mentioned by name in twenty-five places in the Holy Quran he is also addressed with respect as:"Ibne Maryam" - son of Mary; as Masi (Heb) Messiah - translated as Christ; "Abd-ullah" servant of Allah; "Rasu -Ullah" - Messenger of Allah. He is spoken of as "the word of God", as "the spirit of God", as a "Sign of God", and numerous other epithets of honor spread over fifteen different chapters. There is not a single disparaging remark in the entire Quran to which even the most jaundiced among the Christians can take exception. 

MANY REFERENCES 
At the end of the most popular translation of the Holy Quran in English, i.e. by A.Yusuf Ali, there is a very comprehensive index. You will find on page 1837 references to Jesus, i.e. 
Jesus, a rightenous prophet, vi.85; 
birth, iii. 45:47; xix. 22-33; 
apostle to Israel, iii. 49-51; 
disciples, iii. 52-53; v.114-118 
taken up, iii. 55-58; iv.157-159; 
like Adam, iii.59; 
not crucified, iv.157; 
no more than apostle, iv.171; v.78; 
xliii 59, 63-64; 
not God, v.19,75; 
sent with Gospel, v.49; 
not son of God, ix.30; 
Message and miracles, v.113; xix.30-33; 
prays for Table of viands, v.117; 
taught no false worship, v.119-121; 
disciples declare themselves Muslims, v.114; 
mission limited, n.1861 to xiii.38; 
followers have compassion and mercy, lvii.27: 
disciples as God's helpers, lxi.14; 
as a Sign, xxiii. 50; xliii.61; 
prophesied Ahmad, lxi.6. 
MARY HONOURED 
　 
BEHOLD! THE ANGELS SAID: "O MARY! GOD HATH CHOSEN THEE AND PURIFIED THEE- CHOSEN THEE ABOVE THE WOMEN OF ALL NATIONS." HOLY QURAN 3:42 
"Chosen thee above the women of all nations." Such an honor is not to be found given to Mary even in the Christian Bible! The verse continue: 
"O MARY! WORSHIP THY LORD DEVOUTLY: PROSTRATE THYSELF, AND BOW DOWN (IN PRAYER) WITH THOSE WHO BOW DOWN." HOLY QURAN 3:43 
DIVINE REVELATION 
What is the source of this beautiful and sublime recitation which, in its original Arabic, moves men to ecstacy and tears? Verse 44 below explains 
THIS IS PART OF THE TIDINGS OF THE THINGS UNSEEN, WHICH WE REVEAL UNTO THEE (O APOSTLE!) BY INSPIRATION: THOU WAST NOT WITH THEM WHEN THEY CAST LOTS WITH ARROWS, AS TO WHICH OF THEM SHOULD BE CHARGED WITH THE CARE OF MARY: NOR WAST THOU WITH THEM WHEN THEY DISPUTED (THE POINT). HOLY QURAN 3:44 
SURA MARYAM 
There is a Chapter in the Holy Quran, named Sura Maryam "Chapter Mary" (XIX) named in honor of Mary the mother of Jesus Christ (pbuh); again, such an honor is not to be found given to Mary in the Christian Bible. Out of the 66 books of the Protestants and 73 of the Roman Catholics, not one is named after Mary or her son. You will find books named after Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul and two score more obscure names, but not a single one is that of Jesus or Mary! If Muhummed (pbuh) was the author of the Holy Quran, then he would not have failed to include in it with MARYAM, the mother of Jesus, his own mother - AMINA, his dear wife - KHADIJA, OR HIS BELOVED daughter-FATIMA. But No!No! this can never be. The Quran is not his handiwork! 

THE GOOD NEWS 
BEHOLD! THE ANGELS SAID: "O MARY! GOD GIVETH THEE GLAD TIDINGS OF A WORD FROM HIM: HIS NAME WILL BE CHRIST JESUS THE SON OF MARY HELD IN HONOUR IN THIS WORLD AND THE HEREAFTER AND (OF THE COMPANY OF) THOSE NEAREST TO GOD; HOLY QURAN 3:45 
Whilst the good news was being announced (verse 45 above) Mary was told that her unborn child will be called Jesus, that he would be the Christ, a "Word" from God, and that..... 
"HE SHALL SPEAK TO THE PEOPLE IN CHILDHOOD* AND IN MATURITY. AND HE SHALL BE (OF THE COMPANY) OF THE RIGHTEOUS." Holy Quran 3:46 
* This prophecy found fulfilment within a very short time. We find this in Sura Maryam below: 
AT LENGTH SHE BROUGHTHIM (THE BABE) TO HER PEOPLE, CARRYING HIM (IN HER ARMS). THEY SAID:"O MARY! TRULY AN-AMAZING THING HAST THOU BROUGHT! O SISTER OF AARON THY FATHER WAS NOT A MAN OF EVIL NOR THY MOTHER A WOMAN UNCHASTE!" Holy Quran 19:27-28 
The amazement of the people knew no bounds. In any case they were prepared to think the worst of her, as she had disappeared from her kin for some time. But now she comes, shamelessly parading a babe in her arms! How she had disgraced the house of Aaron, the fountain of priesthood! 
"SISTER OF AARON: Mary is reminded of her high lineage and the unexceptionable morals of her father and mother. How, they said, she had fallen and disgraced the name of her progenitors! "What could Mary do? How could she explain? Would they, in their censorious mood accept her explanation? All she could do was to point to the child, who, she knew, was no ordinary child. And the child came to her rescue. By a miracle he spoke, defended his mother, and preached -to an unbelieving audience." A.Yusuf Ali, comments in his notes 2480-2482 on page 773 of his translation. 
BUT SHE POINTED TO THE BABE. THEY SAID: "HOW CAN WE TALK TO ONE WHO IS A CHILD IN THE CRADLE?" HOLY QURAN 19:23 
And by a miracle he spoke: 
HE SAID: "I AM INDEED A SERVANT OF GOD: HE HATH GIVEN ME REVELATION AND MADE ME A PROPHET; "AND HE HATH MADE ME BLESSED WHERESOEVER I BE, AND HE HATH ENJOINED ON ME PRAYER AND CHARITY AS LONG AS I LIVE "(HE) HATH MADE ME KIND TO MY MOTHER, AND NOT OVERBEARING OR MISERABLE; "SO PEACE IS ON ME THE DAY I WAS BORN, THE DAY THAT I DIE, AND THE DAY THAT I SHALL BE RAISED UP TO LIFE (AGAIN)!" 
Holy Quran 19:24-33 
LIKE ADAM 
Does the miraculous birth of Jesus make him a God or a "begotten" son of God? No! Says the Holy Quran: 
THE SIMILITUDE OF JESUS BEFORE GOD IS THAT OF ADAM; HE CREATED HIM FROM DUST, THEN SAID TO HIM: 'BE':AND HE WAS. HOLY QURAN 3:59 
If it is said that he was born without a human father, Adam was also so born. Indeed Adam was born without either a human father or mother. As far as our physical bodies are concerned they are mere dust. 
Addressing both the Jews and the Christians, Allah says:- 
O PEOPLE OF THE BOOK! COMMIT NO EXCESSES IN YOUR RELIGION: NOR SAY OF GOD AUGHT BUT THE TRUTH. CHRIST JESUS THE SON OF MARY WAS (NO MORE THAN) AN SPOSTLE OF GOD, AND HIS WORD, WHICH HE BESTOWED ON MARY, AND A SPIRIT PROCEEDING FROM HIM: SO BELIEVE IN GOD AND HIS MESSENGERS... Holy Quran 4:171 
As a conclusion, read the following verses: 
SUCH (WAS) JESUS THE SON OF MARY : (IT IS) A STATEMENT OF TRUTH, ABOUT WHICH THEY (VAINLY) DISPUTE. IT IS NOT BEFITTING TO (THE MAJESTY OF) GOD THAT HE SHOULD BEGET A SON. GLORY BE TO HIM ! WHEN HE DETERMINES A MATTER, HE ONLY SAYS TO IT, "BE", AND IT IS. VERILY GOD IS MY LORD AND YOUR LORD : HIM THEREFORE SERVE YE : THIS IS A WAY THAT IS STRAIGHT. Holy Quran 19:34-36 

this articale is taken from
islam101.com

 :Smile:  regards  :Smile:

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## miss tenderness

that's right,i like Jesus peace be upon him an wish to see him in the hereafter 
thanks for the post bro

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## Ha lelu Yah'

lover of jesus,

To those not already familiar with Islamic beliefs that was a very informative post.

May I ask you a question? Are you familiar with John 3:16 and do you feel that your "love" of and "belief" in Jesus makes you a Christian and that you will recieve your reward no matter which holy book is the correct one? In other words, could it be that all the talk of Jesus in the Quran is just a way to make its adherents feel that they are protected in either eventuality?

Let me ask you, who is the greater prophet, Jesus or Muhammad? Whose words and teachings are most important? If Jesus words are only true when they are taken from Muhammad's words in the Quran, which prophet do you really "believe" in and love? And finally why did God abandon mankind for so long by failing to provide true, trustworthy, reliable, and enduring guidance?

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## adilyoussef

ya for sure, all Muslims do love jesus (pbuh). But the consept of love in Islam is different from the one in Christianity.

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## okmit

> ya for sure, all Muslims do love jesus (pbuh). But the consept of love in Islam is different from the one in Christianity.


How so? And if so,do they also have a different anger,joy,sad,etc.?...Hmm?
Do you think they feel pain different too? No...I think your mistaken.
In Jesus Holy Name,okmit

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## Amfortas

They love jesus , sure. but to them he his just a human being and prophet , not God or the son of God.

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## okmit

> They love jesus , sure. but to them he his just a human being and prophet , not God or the son of God.


Which is quite curious when you consider they acknowledge him as Christ,born of Immaculate Conception,capable of raising the dead,restoring health an giving Grace(Peace.)Since his Birth,Life,Death,and Ressurection were all clearly prophesied,if He is not God Incarnate,or the Son of God then why has his name been Praised for the past 4,000 years?...Hmm?

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## adilyoussef

> How so? And if so,do they also have a different anger,joy,sad,etc.?...Hmm?
> Do you think they feel pain different too? No...I think your mistaken.
> In Jesus Holy Name,okmit


Don't missinterprete what I said. We love him as a prophet not god. If he is so, why is he tortured and killed as you pretend? He had some skills as had some other prophers before his: Moses is one of them, and we love him too as we do for Jesus. 

Do you know that Muslims believe in Christianity also? I know it is hard to believe they do, but this is a fact.

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## subterranean

It is interesting to see that there were/are many cases about Christian and Muslim hostilities, yet these two actually came from the same root: Abraham or Ibrahim. 
Do you know that each has its own version about the boy whom the father brought to the hill to be sacrificed and in return God gave a lamb as exchange?

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## okmit

> Don't missinterprete what I said. We love him as a prophet not god. If he is so, why is he tortured and killed as you pretend? He had some skills as had some other prophers before his: Moses is one of them, and we love him too as we do for Jesus. 
> 
> Do you know that Muslims believe in Christianity also? I know it is hard to believe they do, but this is a fact.


Who is missinterperting whom?And what kind of question is,"Why is he tortured and killed as I PRETEND?What pretense...do you not believe he was beaten an crucified?And the reason He GAVE His Life was for the Redemption of Sin,and if you don't believe that then you do not Believe in Christianity! 

Now alow me to ask you.The Koran says he is Christ.Christ is Greek for anointed so WHO anoited Him and for what reason?It states His birth was anounced by Angels,and was a Virgin birth so who do you suppose could pull that off and for what reason?

On April 2nd 1968 The Blessed Mother as well as Jesus & Joseph appeared in Zietoun,Egypt on a regular basis for the next 3 years and was witnessed by millions,when was the last appearance of Mohammad?

By the way,useing a small case j in" lover of Jesus "is demeaning.If I were not a Christian I would curse such disrespect and declare jihad,instead of praying for enlightenment an forgiveness.
In Jesus Christs Holy Name,okmit

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## Logos

> By the way,useing a small case j in" lover of Jesus "is demeaning.If I were not a Christian I would curse such disrespect and declare jihad,instead of praying for enlightenment an forgiveness.
> In Jesus Christs Holy Name,okmit


You're being a little harsh here, please tone it down. 

It could possibly be a typo or merely unintentional as adilyoussef uses capital "J" in other cases.

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## okmit

> You're being a little harsh here, please tone it down. 
> 
> It could possibly be a typo or merely unintentional as adilyoussef uses capital "J" in other cases.


On being a little harsh an toneing it down...Okay.

on the lower case j...that wasn't for adilyoussef but for whoever started the thread useing the monicker,lover of Jesus.Regardless my prayers go with both.
okmit

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## adilyoussef

> On April 2nd 1968 The Blessed Mother as well as Jesus & Joseph appeared in Zietoun,Egypt on a regular basis for the next 3 years and was witnessed by millions,when was the last appearance of Mohammad?
> 
> By the way,useing a small case j in" lover of Jesus "is demeaning.If I were not a Christian I would curse such disrespect and declare jihad,instead of praying for enlightenment an forgiveness.
> In Jesus Christs Holy Name,okmit


Did they? I'v never heard of such a thing. For that Mohammad (pbuh) to appear again, there is no way to think so. He is dead and dead people don't come again. Still, it is not doom's day yet. 

For using a small case j in "lover of Jesus", that was only a typing mistake nothing else. Sorry for that. There is no way to declare jihad on such a thing. Don't you think that there are enough wars in the world? 

By the way, next time provide me with proofs if you please. Saying things is easy, but proving their validity is still a thing that should be tacken into considerations.

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## subterranean

adilyoussef, this issue seems very important to okmit. So, I think those smileys are quite innapropriate to be used. Beside, what's the significance in putting the LOL face after your comment on war.

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## Scheherazade

Please avoid personalising your comments; it is the ideas that we discuss, not the persons.

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## subterranean

The use of small "j" seems very personal to okmit, so was just giving input. Further the "war" point is what actually counts.

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## Amra

"Let me ask you, who is the greater prophet, Jesus or Muhammad? Whose words and teachings are most important? If Jesus words are only true when they are taken from Muhammad's words in the Quran, which prophet do you really "believe" in and love? And finally why did God abandon mankind for so long by failing to provide true, trustworthy, reliable, and enduring guidance"

I don't think it is right to compare prophets in this way. Every prophet was important and we bless all of them, because they are God's chosen people who delivered his message. God has been sending them since He created the first human being. Every prophet came with the same message; belief in one God, Almighty, Eternal, Most Just, the One who is above everything else. Mohammed a.s was the last Prophet, confirming all other prophets and their messages, and bringing God's last revelation to human kind until Judgment Day. Because he is the last prophet, he is thought of as being the seal on the whole process of prophethood. Everything that is revealed in the Qur'an is believed to be God's last message and because it is the last, it is believed to be the one containing the ultimate truth. All other revelations are accepted as much as they agree with the Qur'an. Everything else is believed to have been changed by humans throught the history, and cannot be taken as God's word. In Islam, five prophets are believed to be the most influential ones, and those are : Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Noah, and Mohammed (peace be upon them). Consequently, we love and honor these prophets they way God wants us to do. 
Your second question in which you state that God has abandoned humankind in some way, I would answer that God, Almighty, has given us guidance throughout our existence. In Islam it is believed that God sent more than 120 000 prophets over the years, but the revelations were sometimes lost, changed or corrupeted by humans. It wasn't God who abandoned us, it was us who over and over again abandoned God's messages. HOwever, when Qur'an was revealed, because it was supposed to be the last revelation, God made a promise in it that the book will not be changed, and that it will be perserved in its full originality until the Judgment Day. Because of this belief, muslims reject every other revelation that is in conflict with the holy Qur'an.

"Which is quite curious when you consider they acknowledge him as Christ,born of Immaculate Conception,capable of raising the dead,restoring health an giving Grace(Peace.)Since his Birth,Life,Death,and Ressurection were all clearly prophesied,if He is not God Incarnate,or the Son of God then why has his name been Praised for the past 4,000 years?...Hmm?"

We do believe that Jesus a.s was born of Immaculate Conception, that he did raise the dead, and all the other things that you name, but we believe that it was God, Almighty, who allowed all this to happen. It was not Jesus a.s who performed any of these things in his own power, but he power and the will came from God. Jesus a.s was just an instrument, like other prophets have been instruments used by God to deliver his message. It was not uncommon for prophets to perform miracles, but they were God's miracles, and that is where the line has to be drawn to avoid confustion. Adem was created without a woman or a man, but he is not believed to be God, so why should Jesus's a.s conceptino be regarded more in any different light?

This is what the holy Qur'an says of Jesus a.s:

003.042 
Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations. 

003.043 
"O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."

003.044
Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah; 

003.046 
"He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." 

003.047 
She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is! 

003.048 
"And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel, 

003.049 
"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; 

003.050 
"'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. 

003.051 
"'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'" 

003.052 
When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?" Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. 

003.053 
"Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness." 

003.055 
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. 

003.056 
"As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help." 

003.057 
"As to those who believe and work righteousness, Allah will pay them (in full) their reward; but Allah loveth not those who do wrong." 

003.058 
"This is what we rehearse unto thee of the Signs and the Message of Wisdom." 

003.059 
The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was. 

This is just one part, but I thought it would be interesting to those who think that muslims reject Jesus a.s altogether.
If anyone is interested to find all that there is about Jesus a.s in the holy Qur'an, here is an online copy of the book, and a very efficient index that will find anything one is interested in.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/quranindex.html#J

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## okmit

> Did they? I'v never heard of such a thing. For that Mohammad (pbuh) to appear again, there is no way to think so. He is dead and dead people don't come again. Still, it is not doom's day yet. 
> 
> For using a small case j in "lover of Jesus", that was only a typing mistake nothing else. Sorry for that. There is no way to declare jihad on such a thing. Don't you think that there are enough wars in the world? 
> 
> By the way, next time provide me with proofs if you please. Saying things is easy, but proving their validity is still a thing that should be tacken into considerations.


I am not suprised you never heard of the apparitions.The media coverage in the United States was miniscule as they occured.The focus at that time was placed on Vietnam,and the Race riots.
As for not appearing because they are dead.We (Christians) believe Jesus,(Immanuel,God with us) Rose from the dead and conquered death.We have eternal LIFE...some in Peace...others in conflict.
As proof of an Historical event occuring?You might check out Our Lady of Light,Egypt,or www.theworkofgod.org 
If you think it is Christian propaganda you might reasearch the The newspaper archives in Zeitoun,Cairo,or any other source you wish.

I accept your apology for the lower case J and ask you to acceept mine for my misunderstanding of the word "Jihad."I was under the impression it meant "STRUGGLE" an reffered to OUR constant struggle to LIVE the Faith,and belived the the "HOLY WAR" interpretation was a bastardization of the word to meet the ends of a political quest not a religious one!After all is not War and Holy not incongrous,(oxymoron)Like...it was so Hot the man Froze to death?Besides,who is so arrogant to believe God all powerfull of Cosmos needs or wants mortal men to bring him "GREATER GLORY" via Killing an Mayham,Chaos?
In Christ,okmit

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## adilyoussef

> I am not suprised you never heard of the apparitions.The media coverage in the United States was miniscule as they occured.The focus at that time was placed on Vietnam,and the Race riots.
> As for not appearing because they are dead.We (Christians) believe Jesus,(Immanuel,God with us) Rose from the dead and conquered death.We have eternal LIFE...some in Peace...others in conflict.
> As proof of an Historical event occuring?You might check out Our Lady of Light,Egypt,or www.theworkofgod.org 
> If you think it is Christian propaganda you might reasearch the The newspaper archives in Zeitoun,Cairo,or any other source you wish.
> 
> I accept your apology for the lower case J and ask you to acceept mine for my misunderstanding of the word "Jihad."I was under the impression it meant "STRUGGLE" an reffered to OUR constant struggle to LIVE the Faith,and belived the the "HOLY WAR" interpretation was a bastardization of the word to meet the ends of a political quest not a religious one!After all is not War and Holy not incongrous,(oxymoron)Like...it was so Hot the man Froze to death?Besides,who is so arrogant to believe God all powerfull of Cosmos needs or wants mortal men to bring him "GREATER GLORY" via Killing an Mayham,Chaos?
> In Christ,okmit


Of course I accept them. I want just to make one point. Whatever religion that one believes in, it is just a system of regulation. Who knows which is true. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Boudaism... There are so many. I do believe in Islam, and its teachings taught us to believe in Christianity and Judaism also but in a different way. Islam has taken a lot from other religions and based its rules upon theirs. 

When I said we have a different consept of love, it does not mean the word love by itself, but the application of it. You do love your mother but not in the same way you do for your brother, father or beloved. Love differs from one approach to the other and one culture to another.

I'd rather not discuss religion we people because to do so, I have to learn the Quora'an by heart and the Souna also in addition to have a good knowledge of Cristianity and the Holly Book. Other wise I'll wrong them and mislead people. That is why I asked for proofs. Proofs from the Holly Book or Quora'an. What we say is just our opinings. To argue them, one has to be very miticulous and specific providing evidence and refferenses. Whow can I believe what you are saying is true if you don't guive me a tangibal source to reffer to. I have lots of evidence of the true teachings of Islam as you may have lots for your religion. 

I want to ask you this question: what is the aim of making different religions? Or why God did not choose one religion and rather made many? We are all humans but we are different, some are "black" ( sory for the expretion) and some "white", some Muslims and some Christians, and so on and so forth. Why? We are all sons and dauters of Addam and Ev. So why we are different? I know you can't answer these questions if so you understand why we are in this earth and reached the abslute trueth.

I'm not saying that Christianity is wrong or right. I'm just saying that any one of us chooses its way for happyness. If you are happy being a Christion and convinced of its being the true religion, so let it be. Just lead a happy existance and we will know who is right in the day of judgement.

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## Koa

> By the way,useing a small case j in" lover of Jesus "is demeaning.If I were not a Christian I would curse such disrespect and declare jihad,instead of praying for enlightenment an forgiveness.
> In Jesus Christs Holy Name,okmit


 :Eek:  It's this kind of behaviour from Christians that has made me avoid any Church (unless empty) since I was 18...

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## rachel

Jesus said before He ascended to heaven "i leave you with a new command" you must love the Lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength and your neighbor as yourself." He never advocated mistreating one another. And as he hung upon the cross he said of his enemies :Father forgive them...."
To judge a whole church by the actions of a few who in no way represent Him is perhaps a little unfair. When I first came upon this forum there was one person, perhaps a couple that seemed very rude and unkind and sort of troublemakers and I thought that i should forget this site. But I perservered and saw that they were certainly anything but like the rest of you. It is just a thought. And we are supposed to "bless not curse" and "love our enemies and do good to those that spitefully use you." Just another thought.

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## kilted exile

> I'm just saying that any one of us chooses its way for happyness. If you are happy being a Christion and convinced of its being the true religion, so let it be. Just lead a happy existance and we will know who is right in the day of judgement.


Hear, hear. If more people thought like this the world be a finer place.

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## MrBojangles

Day of judgment?

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## starrwriter

> Day of judgment?


Associated with The Rapture, one of my favorite Christian ideas. That's when all non-Christians go directly to hell to begin burning in agony for all eternity. How's that for tolerance and compassion from followers of the Prince of Peace?

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## adilyoussef

> Jesus said before He ascended to heaven "i leave you with a new command" you must love the Lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength and your neighbor as yourself." He never advocated mistreating one another. And as he hung upon the cross he said of his enemies :Father forgive them...."
> To judge a whole church by the actions of a few who in no way represent Him is perhaps a little unfair. When I first came upon this forum there was one person, perhaps a couple that seemed very rude and unkind and sort of troublemakers and I thought that i should forget this site. But I perservered and saw that they were certainly anything but like the rest of you. It is just a thought. And we are supposed to "bless not curse" and "love our enemies and do good to those that spitefully use you." Just another thought.


Although they are but thoughts, they are good ones. Well said *rachel*.



> Hear, hear. If more people thought like this the world be a finer place.


Thank you for the compliment! I hope that too. At least, we can make it a finer place at this forum.

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## okmit

> It's this kind of behaviour from Christians that has made me avoid any Church (unless empty) since I was 18...


How unfortunate.What part of my statement upset you,the praying for enlightenment or forgivness?You are aware not even God purposes to Judge us before were dead are you not.
There is a terrific book by C.S.Lewis,"The Screwtape Letters"I think you would enjoy.
Mohandas K. Gandhi once said;"I have a deep love and great respect for Jesus and have patterned my life by his teachings 
,I could very easily be a Christian if only it were not for Christians!"Hmm?
I am not passing judgement on you, Muslims,Hindus,or anyone else.You may have noted my reference to the Apparitions of Our Lady of Light,Zeitoun,Egypt.The first wittness was a Muslim man,named Farouk Mohammed Atwa which was undergoing operations for gangrene.The following day when he went to the hospital for a scheduled operation,he was certified completely healed.There were many other cases of Muslim and others being healed by Theotokos (Mary).If that is not inclusive I don't know what is.
In Christ,okmit

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## okmit

> Associated with The Rapture, one of my favorite Christian ideas. That's when all non-Christians go directly to hell to begin burning in agony for all eternity. How's that for tolerance and compassion from followers of the Prince of Peace?


And to think LOGOS said I was HARSH!It has been said,a little knowlege is a dangerous thing.I was asked to give my source of information, so if you would like to give credence to your statement give the source.Hmm?

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## subterranean

Koa, I think what Okmit trying to say was that for certain believers, using small capital letters for certain names (i.e. god, a prophet name, or highly respective religious figure), is considered as a disgrace and a form of disrespect. And they would perhaps show strong resentment towards such act.
Yet, as Christianity teaches about love and forgiveness (as what Okmit have said), there's no such hard feelings. And on the other hand Christian who does not forgive is actually not a true Christian.






> It's this kind of behaviour from Christians that has made me avoid any Church (unless empty) since I was 18...

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## okmit

> Koa, I think what Okmit trying to say was that for certain believers, using small capital letters for certain names (i.e. god, a prophet name, or highly respective religious figure), is considered as a disgrace and a form of disrespect. And they would perhaps show strong resentment towards such act.
> Yet, as Christianity teaches about love and forgiveness (as what Okmit have said), there's no such hard feelings. And on the other hand Christian who does not forgive is actually not a true Christian.


Exactly!Thank you.

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## lover of jesus

Sorry for my late coming and sorry for putting j insteade of J it bothered me just like you , one day some one asked me what do you do if you see your parents? I said enthusiastically I hung them!!! I meant I "hug" them .. 
Well..

I dont ignore there is deferent conceptions for Jesus" peace should be upon him" in both Islam and Christianity 

In Islam Jesus is a great prophet who was supported by miracles like other prophet Moses Noah and Mohammad .when God sends prophets he sends with them miracles to believe them, Jesus miracle was his delivery with no father like Adam how was born without mother and father so why couldnt he be God
because Adam, Jesus and other prophets are created by almighty Allah who has the all power to do whatever he wants he can create a man without parents by one word 'BE' and it is

In Christianity he is God.other said he is the son of God or he is the father the son and the holy spirit in the same time the conception of Jesus in Islam as great prophet who we should all respect and love him is more logical than any other conceptions 
REGARDS

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## okmit

> Sorry for my late coming and sorry for putting j insteade of J it bothered me just like you , one day some one asked me what do you do if you see your parents? I said enthusiastically I hung them!!! I meant I "hug" them .. 
> Well..
> 
> I dont ignore there is deferent conceptions for Jesus" peace should be upon him" in both Islam and Christianity 
> 
> In Islam Jesus is a great prophet who was supported by miracles like other prophet Moses Noah and Mohammad .when God sends prophets he sends with them miracles to believe them, Jesus miracle was his delivery with no father like Adam how was born without mother and father so why couldnt he be God
> because Adam, Jesus and other prophets are created by almighty Allah who has the all power to do whatever he wants he can create a man without parents by one word 'BE' and it is
> 
> In Christianity he is God.other said he is the son of God or he is the father the son and the holy spirit in the same time the conception of Jesus in Islam as great prophet who we should all respect and love him is more logical than any other conceptions 
> REGARDS


If Jesus is just another Prophet why was HIS coming Hearald(Announced) by all of the Great prophets and by Celestial Angels naming Him" Emmanuel "(God with us)? It is not a question of degree of logic,it has been written and is believed or not.Muslims LIVE their faith as Christ instructed Christians to,with Much Prayer an Fasting trying to live a life of virtue.It is evident Muslims are more dedicated to keeping the LAWS of faith than is the majority of "feel good" neo Christians.However on this point we must agree to disagree and practice our faith in Peace.
Respectfuly,okmit

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## Logos

okmit, in my opinion, though sure you could perceive it as `extreme' or `harsh', starrwriter is using `sarcasm' here to get their message across, and more importantly they are not directing their post personally to any one specific member.

If you reverse what they're saying, it's basically the message that is posted here more often than not, (and they're using the pretty common concept that `believers' are going to go directly to heaven), that if you don't `believe' then you won't get into heaven etc. etc. 

They have the option to be contrary here. That is what discussion and debate is all about. If everybody agreed there'd be no point for these topics, right? 

Although I will ask everybody, if you choose to participate in these discussions it's expected that you show some respect for each other's beliefs/faith etc. and that you don't resort to hyperbole to get your point across. 






> Quote:
> Originally Posted by starrwriter
> Associated with The Rapture, one of my favorite Christian ideas. That's when all non-Christians go directly to hell to begin burning in agony for all eternity. How's that for tolerance and compassion from followers of the Prince of Peace?





> Quote:
> Originally Posted by okmit
> And to think LOGOS said I was HARSH!It has been said,a little knowlege is a dangerous thing.I was asked to give my source of information, so if you would like to give credence to your statement give the source.Hmm?

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## okmit

> okmit, in my opinion, though sure you could perceive it as `extreme' or `harsh', starrwriter is using `sarcasm' here to get their message across, and more importantly they are not directing their post personally to any one specific member.
> 
> If you reverse what they're saying, it's basically the message that is posted here more often than not, (and they're using the pretty common concept that `believers' are going to go directly to heaven), that if you don't `believe' then you won't get into heaven etc. etc. 
> 
> They have the option to be contrary here. That is what discussion and debate is all about. If everybody agreed there'd be no point for these topics, right? 
> 
> Although I will ask everybody, if you choose to participate in these discussions it's expected that you show some respect for each other's beliefs/faith etc. and that you don't resort to hyperbole to get your point across.


Logos, how is it a self professed nonbeliever can post" saracasticly "about others Religious beliefs on a Religous thread and when ask for the basis (source)for their misconception it is I that am accused of hyperbole,or prsonal attack?The point was Not that only believers would go to heaven,it was said that Christians believe THEY wiil be the only ones caught up in the Rapture!I happen to be a Christian that is aware it is written that the Righteous will enter into Rapture and be spared the trials an tribulations.I have no idea who is or who isn't Righteous nor does anyone else.I think it was apprpriate to ask where this idea was percieved.You may note I never recieved a reply.Hmm?

I welcome "nonbelievers"to respectful debate.It can be an enlightening expieriance for them on their quest for truth and ease them into a gnostic experiance.However Posts such as the" Kringle and cookies "followed by the "oops I almost forgot...Amen", is not only DIS-respectful but down right antagonistic!To make a blanket statement of what any religious sect does or doesn't believe should have a doctrinal source,and should not be construed an attack when requested.You may note that I was ask and I complied.
God be with you,okmit

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## Logos

To okmit: there is nothing wrong with asking someone to provide a source  :Smile:  though we can't make them do it nor expect them to. 

Whether somebody `believes' or not is neither here nor there for me. I am mainly here to Moderate behaviour, not thoughts or ideas (except where they are inappropriate for under 13s etc.) 

The reason I posted that _you_ were `harsh' was specifically because you suggested that if you weren't Christian you would invoke `jihad' *because of two different members' use of the small letter `j'.* Even hotmail does not recognise case specifics for addresses so it is quite common to see small caps used for `proper nouns' --> on the internet, or it was a typo, who knows? 

--
the below is a general comment not addressed to anyone in particular.. 

I've posted in concern when someone has resorted to using HUGE fonts and bolding, excessive exclamation marks etc. to post their message when I think that is uncalled for in these especially emotional areas of the forums. So I suppose sarcasm or attempts at humour is not the best way to go here as it seems to increase negative response or perceived `disrespect' towards another's `faith'. 

That is all that is asked of here, I don't think it is too difficult a concept, that everyone try to see each other's side of the issue, and respect it. If you personally take offense at what someone else writes, I'm sorry I can't really help you with that because it is very subjective. I have a very difficult time being objective here, given the content. I apologise if I ever come across as not being objective, but I also ask people to try to understand my position too, as a Moderator.

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## adilyoussef

> Sorry for my late coming and sorry for putting j insteade of J it bothered me just like you , one day some one asked me what do you do if you see your parents? I said enthusiastically I hung them!!! I meant I "hug" them .. 
> Well..
> 
> I dont ignore there is deferent conceptions for Jesus" peace should be upon him" in both Islam and Christianity 
> 
> In Islam Jesus is a great prophet who was supported by miracles like other prophet Moses Noah and Mohammad .when God sends prophets he sends with them miracles to believe them, Jesus miracle was his delivery with no father like Adam how was born without mother and father so why couldnt he be God
> because Adam, Jesus and other prophets are created by almighty Allah who has the all power to do whatever he wants he can create a man without parents by one word 'BE' and it is
> 
> In Christianity he is God.other said he is the son of God or he is the father the son and the holy spirit in the same time the conception of Jesus in Islam as great prophet who we should all respect and love him is more logical than any other conceptions 
> REGARDS


I absolutly agree with you. May God bless you.

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## subterranean

> the conception of Jesus in Islam as great prophet who we should all respect and love him is more logical than any other conceptions 
> REGARDS



Funny that none of the Muslims I know (hundreds of them), never said anything of respectfull or nice about Jesus. Maybe it's merely cause of lack of information.

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## lover of jesus

> Maybe it's merely cause of lack of information.




yes....

One of principle in islam we should believe in all prophets, 
, love and respect them

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## adilyoussef

> Funny that none of the Muslims I know (hundreds of them), never said anything of respectfull or nice about Jesus. Maybe it's merely cause of lack of information.


Yes, you are right. But don't confuse Muslims and Islam. You will be so surprised to know that not only hundreds but millions think differently from those whom you know.

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## paraglox

salaam alaikum

of course muslims love Jesus (may peace be upon him) he was a prophet. Jesus was a muslim just like all the prophets. meaning submitting to Allah and teaching people the teachings of Allah on how to live your life, all praise be due to Allah. All this other religion besides Islam (no disrespect) isn't going to give you the the peace that Islam gives you, every other religion is connected with symbolism, jesus, crosses, statues, gods etc... which connects you to life and blocks your receptivness to Allah and the path you could be guided on. cuz if you checked it you would no that everything you do should be expending for Allah and preparing for death, and the prophets came with that messege and the koran is Allah's words and a direct sign from Allah. Allah see's all that has come before, the present, and the future, so people just need to chill and read that book. 

one luv

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## BSturdy

Hello "Lover of Jesus"

As you may know 'The Sermon on the Mount' is one of Jesus's most celebrated teachings. It was intended to be easy for normal people to understand:

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but 
inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes
are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A
good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the 
fire. 
So then, you will know them by their fruits."

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## adilyoussef

Amen..........................

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## Amra

May Allah allow us to spend our eternity in the presence of all His Prophets. Amen.

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## bhekti

> the conception of Jesus in Islam as great prophet who we should all respect and love him is more logical than any other conceptions 
> REGARDS


A very interesting argument.And humane too.

I thought the subject of faith surpasses that of reason, or logic. There is a text that says "the Heart has its own reason that Reason knows nothing about." So when the value of truth is measured only by logic, then it will only produce a partial, or incomplete, or relative result. Logic is..is...Oh what is logic, anyway?

There are cases, which are not extraordinary, that you can still comprehend something though you cannot logically explain your comprehension. And, I think that's what makes human is so unique a being.

As a rule, a creator is (has to be) greater than its creature. So is God, the Logos, greater than human, the logikos. The Logikos cannot contain the Logos. The Logikos can only understand what becomes its part to understand. As for the rest, it can comprehend only when it is given the capacity to comprehend. Given by whom? By the Logos, of course.

Now, if a subject that we call "God" does not have the capacity to take for himself the very nature of a human being, his creation, can that subject be truly God? does that subject deserve the place, the function and the name of God?

When we want to understand God, we must stand under God.

But, we are vulnarable creatures. We have not patience. And, to make the picture worse, we have pride and enjoy it....

And, as far as I know, my reading the history of the world shows me that human Reason, or Logic, or Ratio is always only a subject to human pride.

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## BSturdy

Bhekti: You've slightly lost me but the point I was trying to make was that religous teachings are inherently open to interpretation

You are aware that Islamic scholars have the benefit of hindsight

We are all blessed with logic and the ability to rationalise - unlike animals (maybe!)

This enables us to understand each other and achieve peace  :Yawnb:

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## robero

dear readers

it is really a thorny question because we don't know how do u think about Muslims... anyway the answer is , YES, Muslims do love Jesus because they were asked in their holy book "QURAN" to believe in all the prophets of Allah and the miracles they were sent withand also respect all relegions

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## lover of jesus

Although the thread is clear and simple ,I don't know why somebody wants to complicate it  :Smile:  

The thread is about the Islamic point view about Jesus (peace should be upon him) I have selected for many reasons:
Some of you think that muslims hate him , as some one has mentioned that here .also 
to clarify the cause from using my user name "lover of Jesus" in this forum 


[QUOTE=lover of jesus]IN FACT NO MUSLIM IS A MUSLIM IF HE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS!"

so there is no any intention in deceiving you 

peace should be on all prophetes

regaaaards  :Wave:

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## greenburke

[QUOTE=lover of jesus]Although the thread is clear and simple ,I don't know why somebody wants to complicate it  :Smile:  

The thread is about the Islamic point view about Jesus (peace should be upon him) I have selected for many reasons:
Some of you think that muslims hate him , as some one has mentioned that here .also 
to clarify the cause from using my user name "lover of Jesus" in this forum 





> IN FACT NO MUSLIM IS A MUSLIM IF HE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS!"
> 
> so there is no any intention in deceiving you 
> 
> peace should be on all prophetes
> 
> regaaaards


"5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" 

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." 

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

from the gospel of John, chapter 6, verses 5 - 14

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## lover of jesus

> Sorry for my late coming and sorry for putting j insteade of J it bothered me just like you , one day some one asked me what do you do if you see your parents? I said enthusiastically I hung them!!! I meant I "hug" them .. 
> Well..
> 
> I dont ignore there is deferent conceptions for Jesus" peace should be upon him" in both Islam and Christianity 
> 
> In Islam Jesus is a great prophet who was supported by miracles like other prophet Moses Noah and Mohammad .when God sends prophets he sends with them miracles to believe them, Jesus miracle was his delivery with no father like Adam how was born without mother and father so why couldnt he be God
> because Adam, Jesus and other prophets are created by almighty Allah who has the all power to do whatever he wants he can create a man without parents by one word 'BE' and it is
> 
> In Christianity he is God.other said he is the son of God or he is the father the son and the holy spirit in the same time the conception of Jesus in Islam as great prophet who we should all respect and love him is more logical than any other conceptions 
> REGARDS


I hope you understand my point view ..... :Smile:

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## greenburke

> I hope you understand my point view .....




"Among Pantheists, like the Indians, anyone might say that he was a part of God, or one with God: there would be nothing very odd about it. But this man, since He was a Jew, could not mean that kind of God. God, in their language, meant the Being outside the world Who had made it and was infinitely different than anything else. And when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips...

...I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him, "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

From C.S. Lewis' , "Mere Christianity" Macmillan Publishing Co, New York, NY. Copyright 1952.

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## lover of jesus

> "
> 
> ...I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him, "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." .





If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of 
crucifixion? Also see: Jesus's crucifixion in Islam

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?

i admit that he is agreat prophet (peace should be upon him)... :Smile:

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## greenburke

because, God humbled himself and became came a man. Jesus was fully God and fully man. Yes God our Savior.... who can forgive sins but God alone? humility, example, sacrifice. my God loved me enough to die for my sins, my Lord and my God. 

1 Corinthians 2

verse 16"For who has known the mind of the Lord 
that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ.

Isaiah 40
verse 13 Who has understood the mind [d] of the LORD, 
or instructed him as his counselor?

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## lover of jesus

> my God loved me enough to die for my sins, my Lord and my God.


 How could God punish himselfe or send himself to Hell ,just to forgive our sins??

He could do that without agonizing himself , because in easy word- He is God 
There is big different between God and Jesus(peace should be upon him) 



1. God is All Knowing...but Jesus was not. When speaking of the Day of Judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God. 

2. God is All-Powerful...but Jesus was not. While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, "Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seethe the Father do..." (John 5:19) Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful; He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God. 

3. God does not have a God...but Jesus did have a God. God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God. 

4. According to the Bible, God is invisible to humans...but Jesus was flesh and blood. While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said, " No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18) "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24, "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God ant any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God. 

5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him...but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own. Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as a "good master" in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Further more, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done," and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God. 
Conclusion: 

The Church recognizes the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise? 

O you who want the truth, the belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is One, not three. He is a perfect unity. 

If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam. 

What is the word of God about Jesus? 
A. Regarding the Sonship of Jesus:
 That is Jesus, son of Mary, in word of truth, concerning which they are doubting. It is not for God to take a son unto Him. Glory be to Him! When He decrees a thing, He but says to it 'Be', and it is (Qur'an 19:34-35). 

 And they say, 'The All-Merciful has taken unto Himself a son'. You have indeed advanced something hideous. The heavens are well nigh rent of it and the earth split asunder, and the mountains well nigh fall down crashing for that they have attributed to the All-Merciful to take a son. None is there in the heavens and earth but he comes to the All-Merciful as a servant  (Qur'an 19:88-93). 

 Truly the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be', and he was (Qur'an 3:59). 

People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the Truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His word that He committed to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not 'Three', Refrain, better it is for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him - that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth, God suffices for a guardian. 

B. Regarding Jesus being God.
 And when God said, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say unto men, "Take me and my mother as gods, apart from God?" He said, 'To You be glory! It is not mine to say what I have no right to. If I indeed said it, You knew it, knowing what is within my soul, and I do not know what is within Your soul; You know the things unseen. I only said to them what You did command me: "Serve God, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them, while I remained among them; but when You did take me to Yourself the Watcher over them; You are the witness over everything (Qur'an 5:116-117). 

C. Regarding the Crucifixion of Jesus.
 And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a mighty calumny, and for their saying 'We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of God'...yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him surely are in doubt regarding him, they have no knowledge of him, except the following of surmise; and they did not slay him of certainty...no indeed; God raised him up to Him; God is Almighty, All-Wise. There is not one of the people of the Book but will assuredly believe in him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them (Qur'an 4:156-159).

regards :Smile:

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## greenburke

Mark 2 verses 1-12

1A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2So many gathered that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3Some men came, bringing to him a paralytic, carried by four of them. 4Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus and, after digging through it, lowered the mat the paralyzed man was lying on. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven." 

6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7"Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?" 

8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? 10But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ." He said to the paralytic, 11"I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." 12He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this!"

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## greenburke

Isaiah 43:10-13



10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, 
"and my servant whom I have chosen, 
so that you may know and believe me 
and understand that I am he. 
Before me no god was formed, 
nor will there be one after me. 

11 I, even I, am the LORD, 
and apart from me there is no savior. 

12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed 
I, and not some foreign god among you. 
You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God. 

13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he. 
No one can deliver out of my hand. 
When I act, who can reverse it?" 



----------------------------------------------
Acts 13:23 NIV Read this Chapter
"From this man's descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.



Philippians 3:20 NIV Read this Chapter
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,



1 Timothy 1:1 NIV Read this Chapter
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,



2 Timothy 1:10 NIV Read this Chapter
but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.



Titus 1:4 NIV Read this Chapter
To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.



Titus 2:13 NIV Read this Chapter
while we wait for the blessed hopethe glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,



Titus 3:6 NIV Read this Chapter
whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,



2 Peter 1:1 NIV Read this Chapter
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:



2 Peter 1:11 NIV Read this Chapter
and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.



2 Peter 2:20 NIV Read this Chapter
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

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## bhekti

John 1:1 - 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me. " From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.


John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 

John 14:8 - 14 
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

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## lover of jesus

Matt 4:10 ...... for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

St paul tells you in acts 2:22

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Clear in black and white, Read my lips A MAN APPROVED OF GOD, A PRO__PHET Not GOD

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## lover of jesus

Matt 4:10 ...... for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

St paul tells in acts 2:22

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Clear in black and white, Read my lips A MAN APPROVED OF GOD, A PRO__PHET Not GOD

peace to all who are righteously guided

__________________

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## greenburke

Sura 23:91- GOD has never begotten a son. Nor was there ever any other god beside Him. Otherwise, each god would have declared independence with his creations, and they would have competed with each other for dominance. GOD be glorified; far above their claims. 



------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 1:23 NIV 
"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" [ Isaiah 7:14] which means, "God with us."

Matthew 14:33 NIV 
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Matthew 16:16 NIV 
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, [ Or Messiah; also in verse 20] the Son of the living God."

John 3:16 NIV 
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, [ Or his only begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


John 3:36 NIV Read this Chapter
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

God became a man, humbled himself to the limatations of a man, was Jesus omnscient? No, beacuase he took on a body, could Jesus be hurt, yes he died on the cross. Was he a suffering servant as Isaiah 53 tells us, yes. I admit he was fully a man and he was fully God. He is the Son of God, he came to earth as God with us (Immanuel), He is God the Son.

If you don't even agree with his teachings, that was God incarnate, that He is the I AM, that He is the Son of God, how can you call him a prophet and a Good man?

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## lover of jesus

> If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.
> 
> If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.
> 
> If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?
> 
> If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?
> 
> If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?
> ...



i think that the point is clear  :Smile:

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## greenburke

John 5:16-30

16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. 

19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. 

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. 

28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come outthose who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

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## prince

I haven't decided yet... But either way I'm a wild girl!
 :Wink:

----------


## Diadem

Do Muslims love Jesus?

Mohammed, who, like all arabs, was descended from Abraham through Ishmael - not Isaac and Jacob/Israel. Mohammed was not religious, he was just a believer, who strove himself, and taught the striving, to do God's Will. Mohammed was given the third part of The Bible, known as the Koran (the gospel of unity), in order to enlighten and unite all mankind. The True Koran, which can be found in the King of kings' Bible, is not the Hadith, and is in complete harmony with both the Old and New Covenants/Testaments of The Bible, when correctly interpreted. The Hadith is what the Meccans wrongfully use as a foundation for the moslem/islamic religion, just as the non-Israelite jews wrongfully use the Talmud as the basis for the jewish religion, instead of following the True Torah. Although a true, racial Israelite is more likely to answer the Call to come out of Babylon and fight for God, you should think of every person as a potential ally and give them the same chance to prove themselves (Matt. 12:30, Luke 11:23, John 8:30/King of kings' Bible) through their works.

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## dark_182_88

greenburke, I have a question. The way I understand it, is that God transformed himself into man, to be able to meet us. Since God, by himself being a god, cannot meet with man, unless through a mediator. Man cannot see him since he's God, and cannot interact with him, therefore God has to transform himself into man. Now I can understand that, it makes sense.

But why is it said that Jesus is the son of God. Not God. But the SON of God. This makes it kind of unclear. And then, I think of when Jesus yells out on the cross : God, why have you forsaken me. I mean if he is God transformed into man, then how is he saying that. That is a bit blurry to me, hope u can explain that to me.  :Smile:

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## Diadem

> greenburke, I have a question. The way I understand it, is that God transformed himself into man, to be able to meet us. Since God, by himself being a god, cannot meet with man, unless through a mediator. Man cannot see him since he's God, and cannot interact with him, therefore God has to transform himself into man. Now I can understand that, it makes sense.
> 
> But why is it said that Jesus is the son of God. Not God. But the SON of God. This makes it kind of unclear. And then, I think of when Jesus yells out on the cross : God, why have you forsaken me. I mean if he is God transformed into man, then how is he saying that. That is a bit blurry to me, hope u can explain that to me.


Ah, I was thinking about it for a moment, and now I understand completely. It will take some time to think it through so don't get frustrated if you really want to understand.

Do you mind if I give it a whirl, dark?

The easiest way to think of it is in the form of a circle. That's right, a nice big circle on a piece of paper.

So, draw a circle on a paper. That whole circle represents God, and God equals the Trinity, so that whole circle is also known as the Trinity 
(Trinity = God).

Now, make a legend. Within the legend box, draw a small circle with an equals sign next to it, like this:

O = God (Trinity)

That's what it should look like.

Moving on...

The whole circle, the Trinity (God), has 3 equal parts. Therefore, each part would take up 33 1/3% of the circular area. No mathematics is involved; just go ahead and divide the whole circle (God = Trinity) into 3 pieces. 

Okay...

Label each piece with an individual number, starting at 1 for the first part and ending at 3 for the last.

In the legend, continue by further defining those numbers. When done, your legend should read as follows:

O (not a zero, a circle) = God (Trinity)
1 = The Holy Spirit
2= The Father
3 = The Son

(It doesn't matter which number is which)

What does that tell you?

It says that the Trinity has 3 parts. They are the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 

And what do all 3 parts form when united together as ONE? 

The 3 parts form the Trinity, all 3 parts in unity, which is GOD. 

The whole circle is the Trinity, right? Yes. 

So, as you can see from the circle diagram:

The Holy Spirit is a part OF the Trinity. 
The Father is a part OF the Trinity. 
The Son is a part OF The Trinity. 

Because the Trinity (the whole circle) is another term for God, each part OF the Trinity is a part OF God. 

The Father OF God (the whole circle). The Son OF God (the whole circle). The Holy Spirit OF God (whole circle). (Or, God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.) 

W00t!  :Brow:  

When someone says "God the Father", they do not means God's daddy. They mean that the Father is a part of what we refer to as "God", that whole circle! 

Ask yourself, what is God? God is purely a socially-constructed term to describe what is actually all 3 parts of the circle (Trinity) in unity. That whole circle, once again, is the Trinity/ God (because God is all 3 parts of the circle in unity, or the whole circle which is the Trinity according to the Bible, right? Yes.). 

That is all! Those 3 beautiful and extraordinary pieces in unity are what people praise! God. 

Jesus Christ who was the Father manifested in the flesh, the Holy Spirit, and the Father (the supernatural force)! All together, they are what we refer to as God in all its splendor and magnificence. 

Ah, yeah! Make sense now?

Okay, now that you understand what God is, let's talk about each individual part of the Trinity (the whole circle). 

The Father
The Father is usually confused with God because people don't understand the aforementioned where I explained to you how to understand the Trinity. So, they use the word God many times where they could easily say the Father. But, saying God is just equally acceptable and right because God encompasses everything, all 3 parts, including the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Right? Right!

The Father is the supernatural force that created all of its existence. Do not try and apply a skin, human face, or mortal qualities to the Father because "He" is not human, nor a he. *It* defies all human comprehension, and it is because of that very reason that the Father, the supernatural force, sent Jesus Christ, the Son of God (not God's son but "Son of God" as in that part OF the circle- that part OF God- that part OF the Trinity), to the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth to be conceived by Mary by Immaculate Conception. 

As someone stated before, we cannot see the Father because we are simply not worthy. It is too powerful and too beautiful for our eyes to see. The Father (that incomprehensible supernatural force that created all) knew this (it is omnipotent and omniscient) so it had Mary begat Jesus who was the manifestation of the Father in the human flesh, or the Son of God. Then, and only then, could we know of the Father by way of his son Jesus Christ, the MESSIAH. The Father sent Jesus to the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth to preach the Father's word, but more importantly, Jesus was sent here to die for our sins on the cross to render us our salvation for eternity as long as we accepted him as our savior.

The Son
He, Jesus Christ, is none other than the Father (same thing as the Father (force) of God) manifested in the flesh so we could know Him, Jesus. The belief in His Son, Jesus Christ, as our Savior gives us salvation and eternal bliss in the Kingdom of Heaven by our God. We achieve salvation by God through the Son of God. 

In order to answer your question:



> God, why have you forsaken me.


It's rather easy. When the Father manifested Jesus in the flesh, Jesus was stripped of his "Godhood" by the Father because it was necessary for Jesus to set an example for the rest of humanity without having the nobility of a God bestowed upon him. You see, if we humans saw Jesus as the God, we would never have believed that we could follow in his footsteps. After all, we would have thought, "I can't refrain from sin like YOU Jesus, you are a GOD!" Because he was stripped of his "Godhood", the people saw Jesus Christ as mere human flesh just like you and I. Jesus faced all the sins we faced today and he never gave in. He wanted to lead by example to show us that, if he could do it, we could do it too! 

Jesus had faith in the Father. Absolute faith. When nails were placed into the joints of his wrists and his feet, and another through his genitals (more than likely to seat his pelvis against the crucifix), it was the mortal flesh that made Jesus cry unto the Father and ask why God the Father had forsaken him. You nor I can ever imagine the pain Jesus Christ suffered that day when he was crucified. You must understand that, while Jesus had absolute faith in the Father, he was human, just like you and I. It was simply natural after enduring all that pain for him to request the Father to take him away from the pain. 

You understand now, dark?

the Holy Spirit
Simply think of the Holy Spirit as a part of the Father, the supernatural force, that is bestowed within the body of a true believer of God. In John, the gift of the Holy Spirit is equivalent to eternal life, knowledge of God (Trinity), power to obey, and communion with one another (believer) and with the Father. When you receive God into your life, you receive the Holy Spirit from the Father which helps guide you through life. It's a part of the Father's supernatural force. Easy huh?

What better way to communion with the Father than the Father granting you a part of itself...a part of that force that comprises the Father. Through the Holy Spirit, we know the Father and subsequently "God" becuase God encompasses the Father.

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## dark_182_88

Thank you Diadem for this wonderful explanation  :Smile:

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## lover of jesus

> Do Muslims love Jesus?
> 
> Mohammed, who, like all arabs, was descended from Abraham through Ishmael - not Isaac and Jacob/Israel. Mohammed was not religious, he was just a believer, who strove himself, and taught the striving, to do God's Will. Mohammed was given the third part of The Bible, known as the Koran (the gospel of unity), in order to enlighten and unite all mankind. The True Koran, which can be found in the King of kings' Bible, is not the Hadith, and is in complete harmony with both the Old and New Covenants/Testaments of The Bible, when correctly interpreted. The Hadith is what the Meccans wrongfully use as a foundation for the moslem/islamic religion, just as the non-Israelite jews wrongfully use the Talmud as the basis for the jewish religion, instead of following the True Torah. Although a true, racial Israelite is more likely to answer the Call to come out of Babylon and fight for God, you should think of every person as a potential ally and give them the same chance to prove themselves (Matt. 12:30, Luke 11:23, John 8:30/King of kings' Bible) through their works.



mohammed (peace be upon him) is one of greatest prophets , 

Muhammad (pbuh) was an illiterate but wise and well-respected man who was born in Makkah in the year 570 C.E., at a time when Christianity was not yet fully established in Europe. His first years were marked by the deaths of his parents. Since his father died before his birth, his uncle, Abu Talib, from the respected tribe of Quraysh, raised him. As Muhammad (pbuh) grew up, he became known for his truthfulness, generosity and sincerity, so that he was sought after for his ability to arbitrate in disputes. His reputation and personal qualities also led to his marriage, at the age of twenty-five, to Khadijah, a widow whom he had assisted in business. Thenceforth, he became an important and trusted citizen of Makkah. Historians describe him as calm and meditative. 

Muhammad (pbuh) never felt fully content to be part of a society whose values he considered to be devoid of true religious significance. It became his habit to retreat from time to time to the cave of Hira', to meditate near the summit of Jabal al-Nur, the "Mountain of Light", near Makkah. 

At the age of 40, while engaged in one such meditative retreat, Muhammad (pbuh) received his first revelation from God through the Angel Gabriel. This revelation, which continued for twenty-three years, is known as the Qur'an, the faithful recording of the entire revelation of God. The first revelation read: 

"Recite: In the name of your Lord Who created man from a clot (of blood). Recite: Your Lord is Most Noble, Who taught by the pen, taught man what he did not know." [96:1-5] 
It was this reality that he gradually and steadily came to learn and believe, until he fully realized that it is the truth. 
His first convert was Khadijah, whose support and companionship provided necessary reassurance and strength. He also won the support of some of his relatives and friends. Three basic themes of the early message were the majesty of the one, unique God, the futility of idol worship, the threat of judgment, and the necessity of faith, compassion and morality in human affairs. All these themes represented an attack on the crass materialism and idolatry prevalent in Makkah at the time. So when he began to proclaim the message to others the Makkans rejected him. He and his small group of followers suffered bitter persecution, which grew so fierce that in the year 622 C.E., God gave them the command to emigrate. This event, the Hijrah (migration), in which they left Makkah for the city of Madinah, some 260 miles to the north, marked the beginning of a new era and thus the beginning of the Muslim calendar. During his suffering, Muhammad (pbuh) drew comfort from the knowledge revealed to him about other prophets, such as Abraham, Joseph, and Moses, each of whom had also been persecuted and tested. 

After several years and some significant battles, the Prophet and his followers were able to return to Makkah, where they forgave their enemies and established Islam definitively. By the time the Prophet died, at the age of 63, the greater part of Arabia had accepted Islam, and within a century of his death, Islam had spread as far west as Spain and as far east as China. It was clear that the message was not limited to Arabs; it was for the whole of humanity. 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Prophet's sayings (Hadith), are revelation. The number of sayings collected by his followers and scholars is close to 10,000 in total. Some typical examples of his sayings are as follows: 

"To pursue knowledge is obligatory on every believing (man and woman)." [Ibn Majah] 
"Removing a harmful thing from the road is charity." [Bukhari, Muslim]
"Those who do not show tenderness and love cannot expect to have tenderness shown to them." [Bukhari] 

"Adore Allah (God) as though you see Him; even if you do not see Him, He nonetheless sees you." [Bukhari, Muslim]

Although Muhammad is deeply loved, revered and emulated by Muslims as God's final messenger, he is not an object of worship.


regards

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## Diadem

lover of jesus, is there anywhere in the Hadeeth that blatantly advocates violence against non-Muslims? Is there another source of scripture from God that Muslims may use other than the Hadeeth?

Regards,
Mike

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## lover of jesus

> Now, make a legend. Within the legend box, draw a small circle with an equals sign next to it, .



the really God should nt has many parts ,one is smaller than other parts ...

or weaker 

also:

God is All-Powerful...but Jesus was not. While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, "Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seethe the Father do..." (John 5:19) Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful; He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God. 

. God does not have a God...but Jesus did have a God. God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

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## lover of jesus

> lover of jesus, is there anywhere in the Hadeeth that blatantly advocates violence against non-Muslims? Is there another source of scripture from God that Muslims may use other than the Hadeeth?
> 
> Regards,
> Mike



ofcource no, all muslims know that killing an innocent soul is abig sin , 

we are not allowed to kill any non-muslims expect the soldiers who invade our country to protect our selves this is in islam 

if you mean 9-11 , be sure that islam is the first one who rejacts these things 

no one has the right to end the lives of other 
prophet muhammed (peace be upon him) had non- muslim neighbor he allways tried to invite him to islam by talking not by killing 

regards

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## Diadem

> the really God should nt has many parts ,one is smaller than other parts ... or weaker


Disclaimer: I understand that you're Muslim, and I respect that, so I just wanted to let you know before I dissect your points.  :Nod:  

Trinity: There is only one God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three eternal and coequal "Persons" (I call them "parts" for clarity), the same in substance but distinct in subsistence: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.




> God is All-Powerful...but Jesus was not.


You are correct. When the Father manifested Jesus Christ in the flesh, Jesus did not have godly powers. 




> While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, "Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seethe the Father do..." 
> 
> (John 5:19) Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful; He is also the source of all power and authority. 
> 
> That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.


No, you're not looking at all the integral points. You must ask yourself:

Why was Jesus Christ on Earth in the first place? 
What was his purpose?

Adam caused man to fall from grace by his sin during his dominion on Earth. Jesus was sent to Earth and conceived by Mary, and afterwards his purpose was to render salvation to humanity by sacrificing himself on the cross for the sins of God's creations (man). 

*1 John 3:8*
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.




> God does not have a God...


Correct. There is only one God since Christianity is a monotheistic religion. Therefore, God would not have a God. There is only one God, but God has three invidual parts that each represent God itself.




> but Jesus did have a God.


Jesus Christ himself was God. The Father was God as well. Not A God, but THE God. Understand now? 

It is evident by the following scripture:

(Paul the Apostle speaks to Jesus Christ)

*Hebrews 1:8*
Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by annointing you with the oil of joy.

What does that mean?

Simply put, each individual part of the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God. 

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was God. In that scripture, it says "your God" which is referring to the Father. Jesus Christ was God in the flesh. 




> God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others.


Correct. 




> But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17)


Yes, refer back to Hebrews 1:8. Jesus Christ is God. The Father is God. That is why he said, "...unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." Why? Well, because the Father is God, and so is Jesus Christ. 

Father = God
Jesus Christ (Son) = God
Holy Spirit = God
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit = God




> He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense?


It's hard for the humam mind to comprehend. Jesus (the Father manifested in the flesh) was calling unto the Father and asking why he has forsaken him. And, of course, referring to John 20:17, the Father is God. Right? Yes.




> When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself?


No, it says "my Father". Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He was, as evident by the scripture, talking to the Father. 




> That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.


Clearly, as evident by Hebrews, he is God.  :Nod: 

Every part of the Trinity is God, and God is the Trinity as a whole.

Confusing, somewhat. Hopefully, I make it easy to understand further up in the thread.

----------


## Diadem

> ofcource no, all muslims know that killing an innocent soul is abig sin , 
> 
> we are not allowed to kill any non-muslims expect the soldiers who invade our country to protect our selves this is in islam 
> 
> if you mean 9-11 , be sure that islam is the first one who rejacts these things 
> 
> no one has the right to end the lives of other 
> prophet muhammed (peace be upon him) had non- muslim neighbor he allways tried to invite him to islam by talking not by killing 
> 
> regards


Thank you for your response. It is much appreciated.

As we all know, God's word is sometimes interpreted incorrectly. I am curious and I hope you will assist me in understanding this: Would you be able to speculate what scriptures some Islamic radicals are using in order to justify their killing of innocent civilians? 

I am not referring to 9/11. I actually believe the American government was responsible for that. I was actually watching a documentary on television last night, and it had an interview with an Islamic radical being held in an Israeli prison. He was quite certain in his religious view that Jews had to be killed and he would be hailed as a martyr by doing so and 72 virgins would await him in Paradise upon his arrival.

Do you know why they believe that? I'd like to understand their perspective and how they arrive at that conclusion. 

Regards

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## lover of jesus

If is true that jesus is apart of one G OD , WHY this God send one of his part to Hill , is it logical to send him to hill inorder to purify the people from sins and to forgive their sins

Really God could do that without harm himselfe 

There are many part of bible has mentioned about jesus as prophet ,ihave mentioned many of them 
And also about muhammed as prophet

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## lover of jesus

> an Islamic radical being held in an Israeli . 
> 
> Regards



as you said he is radical, and prophet muhammed warns us from that 

the really martyr is the one who died for his country ,family,or religion sake

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## Diadem

> If is true that jesus is apart of one G OD , WHY this God send one of his part to Hill , is it logical to send him to hill inorder to purify the people from sins and to forgive their sins
> 
> Really God could do that without harm himselfe


Actually, no he could not have done it any other way; it is perfectly logical. Humans cannot bear to witness God the Father. 

*Exodus 33:20*
But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

Therefore, the Father manifested Jesus Christ (Son of God/ God) in human flesh so we may come to know the Father, but more importantly because there needed to be a blood atonement in order to purify us of our sins. Jesus Christ was that sacrifice whom died on the cross for our sins.




> There are many part of bible has mentioned about jesus as prophet ,ihave mentioned many of them 
> And also about muhammed as prophet


Yes, any many scriptures specifically state that Jesus Christ is God. I provided the Hebrews 1:8 scipture, for example.

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## Diadem

> as you said he is radical, and prophet muhammed warns us from that 
> 
> the really martyr is the one who died for his country ,family,or religion sake


Yes, I am aware of that my brother.

But, are you familiar with what scripture of the Koran they may be reading in order to justify the killing of innocent people? 

They must be using something within the Koran or Hadeeth. Do you know what it might be?  :Confused:  

(I do not judge them for killing. That is God's decision.)

Thank you  :Nod:

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## Nightshade

I know some scriptures that are often manipulated in both christianity and Islam to justify killing. Its the Koranic equivelant of an eye for an eye. I dont rember all of it but it goes "the forbbiden month for a forbidden month" and then somthing like a person for a person defending your homes and families are your right . then somthing like and let it be known God loves not vengence seekers and blood fudes
somthing like that. 
I think the real differance between muslims and christians is not the view of mohmmed although there is the acceptence as him as the final messenger from God, equal to any and all of the previous. No I think the differance has to be in THe way we view Jesus Christ. 
Although I really dont understand what your saying Diadem is it that God in his infinate wisdom create a humn body (jesus) from himself and sent him to earth as a human?
 :Confused: 
I belive Jesus was a mircal a symbol of Gods greatness and power but after that he was a man just a human man but also a holy prophet and messneger like abraham noah moses or mohmmed. 
But in other ways I belive he was more special because for instance I dont believ he was ever crucified. I believe God allowed him to assend to heaven without dieing which is one of the reasons hes going to return to earth before the end of the world not only to unify the belivers of all creeds but to die as well.

(Im going to say sorry for my spelling now becasue its appalling but I cant help it  :Nod:  ) 
 :Biggrin:

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## Diadem

> I know some scriptures that are often manipulated in both christianity and Islam to justify killing. Its the Koranic equivelant of an eye for an eye. I dont rember all of it but it goes "the forbbiden month for a forbidden month" and then somthing like a person for a person defending your homes and families are your right . then somthing like and let it be known God loves not vengence seekers and blood fudes
> somthing like that.


I understand. I was under the impression that it was that scripture involving "eye for an eye". Many people misinterpret that scripture more than any other.




> I think the real differance between muslims and christians is not the view of mohmmed although there is the acceptence as him as the final messenger from God, equal to any and all of the previous. No I think the differance has to be in THe way we view Jesus Christ.


You're right.




> Although I really dont understand what your saying Diadem is it that God in his infinate wisdom create a humn body (jesus) from himself and sent him to earth as a human?


The Father did not send his Son (Jesus Christ) as a grown human being. He sent the Holy Spirit into Mary and she had an immaculate conception thus giving birth to Jesus Christ. A miracle, in other words. She gave birth to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and God, who was the Father manifested in the flesh.

There is are several reasons why God had to appear in human form:

1. There needed to be a human sacrifice on the cross in order to render salavtion to humanity for its sins. The Father sacrificed his only begotten Son to die on the cross for our sins. 

2. We cannot see the Father in order to know him. That is why he sent the Holy Spirit into Mary so she could give birth to His Son manifested in human flesh that other humans could bear witness to.

*Exodus 33:20*
But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

3. The Father could not provide an example for the rest of humanity to abide by had Jesus not been manifested in human flesh and blood, just like everybody else. Had he still had the powers of God as a human, none of his followers would have chose to follow his example because he was a God. It would have been impossible to resist sin like a God. As a human flesh and blood like you and I, it was then possible to emulate Jesus Christ and his resistance of temptation and sin.




> I belive Jesus was a mircal a symbol of Gods greatness and power but after that he was a man just a human man but also a holy prophet and messneger like abraham noah moses or mohmmed.


-He was a miracle. He was immaculately conceived by Mary. 
-He was just a human man. Flesh and blood. No godly powers. 
-He was a prophet, messenger, and the Messiah.
-He was greater than Abraham, Moses and Mohammed. He was God.




> But in other ways I belive he was more special because for instance I dont believ he was ever crucified. I believe God allowed him to assend to heaven without dieing which is one of the reasons hes going to return to earth before the end of the world not only to unify the belivers of all creeds but to die as well.


He _had_ to die on the cross. Because of Adam's sin, man fell from grace. An atonement of blood was needed to render our salvation for eternity and Jesus Christ was that sacrifice to die for our sins.




> (Im going to say sorry for my spelling now becasue its appalling but I cant help it  )


It's all good.

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## Nightshade

Diadem I think we had better agree to respectfully disagree
 :Biggrin:

----------


## lover of jesus

> Yes, I am aware of that my brother.
> 
> But, are you familiar with what scripture of the Koran they may be reading in order to justify the killing of innocent people? 
> 
> They must be using something within the Koran or Hadeeth. Do you know what it might be?  
> 
> (I do not judge them for killing. That is God's decision.)
> 
> Thank you


when we Muslims state that Islam is a religion of peace, we are not trying to prove something unreasonable or solve a crossword puzzle. Rather, we are just stating a fact backed by clear-cut evidence and unquestionable proofs. Even we dont need to state this fact, for Islam, in itself, is self-explanatory, in terms of its meaning, its noble teachings and the core of its message conveyed by the Prophets Allah sent to mankind. 
The Quran says about the prohibition of murder, (Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus does He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.) (Al-An`am 6: 151) and Allah says in the Quran, (Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, We have given his heir authority (to demand Qisas or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the law)) (Al-Israa 17: 33). According to the Quran, killing any person without a just cause is as big a sin as killing the whole humanity and saving the life of one person is as good deed as saving the whole humanity. (See Al-Maidah 5: 32) 
, then how come the Quran says, (kill them wherever you find them) as it is mentioned in Surah Al-Baqarah 2: 191 and Surah An-Nisaa 4: 89. The answer is simple and that is, you should read these verses in their textual and historical context. You should read the whole verse and it is better that you read few verses before and few after. Read the full text and see what is said: 
(Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.) (Al-Baqarah 2: 190-194) 
also read the full text: 
(They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): so take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks. Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (Of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto; if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them; in their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.) (An-Nisaa 4: 89-91) 
Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the terrorist. These verses are not a permission for terrorism but they are a warning against the terrorists. But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized. 
It is important that we study the religious texts in their proper context. When these texts are not read in their proper textual and historical contexts they are manipulated and distorted. It is true that some Muslims manipulate these verses for their own goals. But this is not only with Islamic texts, it is also true with the texts of other religions. I can quote dozens of verses from the Bible which seem very violent, if taken out from their historical context. These Biblical texts have been used by many violent Jewish and Christian groups. Crusaders used them against Muslims and Jews. Nazis used them against Jews. Recently Serbian Christians used them against Bosnian Muslims. Zionists are using them regularly against Palestinians

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## lover of jesus

> 1. There needed to be a human sacrifice on the cross in order to render salavtion to humanity for its sins. The Father sacrificed his only begotten Son to die on the cross for our sins. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .




so the God in Hill whearas the slaves in paradise ???

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## Diadem

> Diadem I think we had better agree to respectfully disagree


Nightshade, I can assure you that I was never attempting to push my belief on you, and I apologize if you took it as such. I was simply explaining my belief as a Christian, nothing more. I respect your belief as well.

Take care.
 :Wink:

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## dark_182_88

Lover of Jesus, what you say shows an erroneous error. God is perfect, God is smart, God knows better. Therefore how can he say "Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause". What is this!! God knows perfectly well that humans are not objective. God knows perfectly well that I might be fighting with you, but we might both be wrong. God knows perfectly well that, if me and you are fighting, then we are both wrong. In no case whatsoever in a human fight or problem, can one side be wrong and the other be totaly right. That's why Jesus has said thou which is without sins cast the first stone. God knows perfectly well that a human being cannot look at things at a 100% objective point of view. Therefore if you give a sentence such as the one above, it is 100% sure that everyone will mis-interpret it. It is 100% sure that each and every person will think that he is right, and the other is wrong, and that he serves a just cause. God is way smarter than that to say such a thing, specialy in medieval times. 

Another thing. When you say, if someone does bad to you, you do bad to that someone. What does that tell you? If we go on that example, then not one good thing will ever come. Let's take an example, back in medieval times lets say. You steal an egg of my chicken, I go back and steal one of the eggs of your chicken. You go back and steal more, I do the same. You go back, steal my chicken, I go back and do the same. You go back and kill my chickens, I go back and do the same. You go back and kill my son, I go back and kill your son. And it goes on.

Dealing evil with evil breeds more evil. Dealing evil with evil gets us nowhere and is absolute non-sense. Therefore if those are the words of God then God must be really dumb, no offense.


And on a final note. When Muhammad started his islamic conquest, he used the sword. Islam was propagated with the use of the sword. That is why you see many muslims carrying a sword in their necklaces for example. Muhammad, transgressed other lands, and used the sword to conquer new lands and spread the religion of Islam. So this automaticaly means that Muhammad (God's prophet) used killing and approved killing to convert people to his religion. Do you think God approves with that? Doesn't that sound a bit wrong? Specialy that he went to others' lands, not the other way around (since you said if someone transgresses you, you have the right to get back at them; but if its the other way around then no way is it permissible).

Do you see any contradictions?

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## lover of jesus

> Now, make a legend. Within the legend box, draw a small circle with an equals sign next to it, like this:
> 
> O = God (Trinity)
> 
> That's what it should look like.
> 
> Moving on...
> 
> The whole circle, the Trinity (God), has 3 equal parts. Therefore, each part would take up 33 1/3% of the circular area. No mathematics is involved; just go ahead and divide the whole circle (God = Trinity) into 3 pieces. 
> ...




First of all the example of the circle never been mentioned by Jesus Or any other profit in the old testament.

I will discuss your example any way.

you said
The whole circle, the Trinity (God), has 3 equal parts.

This means that God is divided into 3 parts and each part is not a complete God.
That's against the faith law. 
(Jesus is a complete God from a Complete God.)
In the same time your example means that, to have a complete God we need to have the 3 parts together. And each part depends on the others to have the complete power; this means none of them is a God.

In your Example each of them is smaller than the big circle, and so each of them is less than a God.
In the same time in your example every part is differ than the others, may be some is bigger or much powerful the others. 
and also this is against faith law.

Please let me ask,
Who told you that? Or From where such information? 

Did Jesus said so? .... No.
Did Jesus mention any thing about Trinity?  No.
Did the word Trinity exists in the New Testament? .. No.

When did they know about trinity? After they considered the Holy Ghost is a God in 381 A.B.

At the end 
trinity never been mentioned by and messenger of God , also Jesus never Know about it, and let's stick on what did Jesus said.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ. 

Jesus said you are the only true god and you sent me ( Just like Moses and other Messengers.)
He didn't said to know the trinity, He said to know you as you are the only true God.
We are Ready to discuss any statement in the Holy Book concerning the Trinity, because we are sure that is not what Jesus said , and even what Gospel Writers mentioned.





__________________

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## lover of jesus

The name was meant to be light-hearted, but it also reflected his commitment to the traditional understanding of jihad in the Koran, which is best translated as a struggle or striving. It is an inner, spiritual struggle to triumph over evil, to live in submission to God and service to humanity.

On Sept. 11, sick with sorrow and outrage, McAuliffe purged Dr. Jihad from his Web site. The terrorists who used jetliners filled with innocent people as weapons of mass destruction, and who may have justified their actions as a jihad against enemies of Islam, have so perverted the noble word that he cannot use it.

"Jihad is a very broad concept that includes theories of just war. But the Koran is very clear that Muslims are only to wage defensive wars," he said. "The more important meaning of jihad is the struggle to be good."

The Arabic term for holy war would be al-harb muhadassa, but "there is no holy war in the Koran. There is no combination of words that means holy war," he said.

Verses such as Koran 9:20-22 are among those that have led suicide bombers to believe they will inherit Paradise:

Those who believe, and who have forsaken the domain of evil and have striven [jihad] hard in God's cause with their possessions and their lives have the highest rank in the sight of God; and it is they, they who shall triumph in the end! Their Sustainer gives them glad tidings of the grace that flows from Him, and of His goodly acceptance, and of the gardens which await them, full of lasting bliss, therein to abide beyond the count of time. Verily, with God is a mighty reward!

The terrorists have ripped such verses out of context and failed to understand their true meaning, McAuliffe said. Passages on fighting refer to a particular war, when enemies of Islam tried to destroy the Prophet Muhammad and his followers. They do not give blanket permission to condemn or kill those who hold political or religious views other than your own, he said.

Take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: Thus doth he command you, that ye may learn wisdom. Koran 6:151

Ihsan Bagby, a Muslim who teaches international relations at Shaw University in Raleigh, N.C., doesn't know how suicide bombers shut out the many verses that extol peace, mercy, restraint and forgiveness. He suspects they convince themselves that military jihad has always had "collateral damage" and that, if American policy sustains injustice, they can target any American interest.

"Of course, such logic is irrational and immoral," Bagby said.

American Muslims have long urged the media not to refer to terrorists as "Islamic" but as "Islamists," meaning those who attempt to impose Islam by force. Few Muslims consider such tactics Islamic.

On the Web, McAuliffe challenges extremists. Their distorted theology "is not so much a matter of which passages of the Koran they read, but which they ignore," he said.

Few extremists would commit violence, he said. They are extreme because they "don't take the book as a whole. They don't grasp its ethos, or see the balance between the different passages."

The Koran is believed by Muslims to have been dictated by the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad in the early 7 th century A.D. Lesser writings, called hadith, are used to interpret the Koran. Hadith include the sayings and biography of Muhammad.

Hadith makes clear that war is only for defense, that innocent civilians must not be targeted, and that fire must not be used to kill, McAuliffe said. In it, Muhammad declares battle the "lesser jihad" and spiritual purification the "greater jihad." 

Extremists ignore the historical and social context of hadith, and those few who condone terrorism claim that hadith's restraints on violence are not true sayings of Muhammad, he said. 

"We don't have any kind of an official body that interprets the Koran in light of hadith. People look to certain scholars or certain charismatic leaders or groups, and get interpretation from them. But there is no Vatican that can say, 'This is the official teaching. ' "

At the center of the quarrel between mainstream Muslims and extremists is how to know when a person or a nation has become an "oppressor" or an enemy of Islam.

In the traditional debate over how to respond to an unjust ruler, "One side maintained that you have to fight back. The other side, which is really the standard Sunni Muslim approach, is that you can't fight anyone unless they prevent you from practicing your religion," he said.

But arguing with extremists is exhausting. Until Sept. 11, if some hothead lectured fellow Muslims about America the Infidel, "People just kind of rolled their eyes," McAuliffe said.

Extremists "don't let up. They are bullies. They seem to have an infinite amount of time and energy and they do not listen. They will not entertain the possibility that they might be incorrect. It's like talking to a wall."

Now, "The good people need to bring as much energy and passion to the confrontation as the evil people do."

Most of those he chats with online share that conviction, he said. 

"There is almost a feeling of helplessness that these guys have -- and I hate to use this word -- hijacked the Islamic message," McAuliffe said.

We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone slew a person -- unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land -- it would be as if he slew the whole people: And if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Koran 5:32

While extremists have monopolized media attention, respected Muslim groups and leaders have countered extremist theology, said John O. Voll, associate director of the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University in Washington, D.C., and co-author of "Islam and Democracy."

He cited Minaret magazine, published by the Islamic Center of Southern California, which circulates nationwide.

"The moderate view is mainstream Islam and always has been," Voll said. "Claiming that someone is an unbeliever and therefore has to be attacked has long been recognized as a heretical approach." 

Voll compares the usage of jihad to that of crusade, which was a military term in 1099 when European Christian armies took back Jerusalem from Muslim Turks who had conquered the Holy Land. Now, however, it usually means an evangelistic meeting or a moral crusade against drugs or violence.

Medieval crusaders who slaughtered Muslim civilians, Jews and Orthodox Christians doubtless believed they had sanction from God. But their actions so poisoned the view of Western Christianity in Eastern Europe and Asia that, nearly 1,000 years later, Billy Graham dropped the word "crusade" from his overseas missions.

The consensus of mainstream Islam is that each individual has a duty to apply his or her full intellect to understanding the Koran.

"You don't just blindly sit down and believe what some teacher has told you," Voll said.

"That relatively blind copying of what others have said is the theological foundation of people like Osama bin Laden and it is different from most of the fundamentalists."

McAuliffe worries that a shortage of qualified religion teachers leaves American Muslims vulnerable to simplistic interpretations of many issues. Most teachers are intelligent and devout, but their education often is in medicine or engineering, rather than religion, history, literature and anthropology, he said.

He was struck that the suicide bombers of Sept. 11 were educated men -- but educated in technology rather than religion.

"What is very scary is that these were not poor, desperate people whose desire to lash out could at least be understood. You can find these educated people in the extremist groups, but they tend to be trained in the natural sciences."

Children of Abraham, it's time to make a stand/ against the injustice and evil in our lands/ Believers come together and join your voice as one/ We don't care what country you are from/ Jew, Christian, Muslim, it's time that we grew up/ Accept each others' differences and leave the rest to God/ Compete in piety, worship and good deeds/ Give up your hatred, your guns and your greed.

McAuliffe wrote that in response to Sept. 11.

----------


## lover of jesus

> I 
> The Father did not send his Son (Jesus Christ) as a grown human being. He sent the Holy Spirit into Mary and she had an immaculate conception thus giving birth to Jesus Christ. A miracle, in other words. She gave birth to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and God, who was the Father manifested in the flesh.
> 
> 
> .



1-Why does a Most Loving and All-Merciful God requires a blood sacrifice (Jesus) to forgive peoples sins?????

2-If Jesus is truly a god why created a baby, weak to be nursed and looked after? Then a boy then a youth then a man, why passes through all these stages? Is it to prove and stress to mankind that he is a god or a human just like us?

3-Why did Mary experience the pains of delivery just like any other woman? 

4-If gods, why did not they beget themselves? If gods, why die?

5-Will that son have children of his own? Why not? Would not that be unjust? Would his offspring be also gods? Would the world be then divided into a kingdom for sons and a kingdom of servants? Whom of them would we then worship? 

Do not you know brother that the words You have no partner, O Allah settle in the heart of the believer the relief of knowing that Allah is the One and Only God. Allah wants to relieve and assure us that He is the One God with no other partner to oppose Him in His Will. This Oneness is a great blessing indeed for which we should heartily thank Allah. Surely, had there been a partner with Him, the earth would have been full of mischief and peoples needs would have been wasted between a god that wants and another that denies.

6-Crucified, means dead, do gods die? If he dies then he is not a god but a human? If a human, why elevates him to a status higher than his? 

7-If gods why sleep, eat, drink. like all humans? 
Please see how nobly the Glorious Quran stresses their humanity through the noble Quranic verse saying what means:

Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger; many were the Messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They both used to eat food (as any other human being). See how Allah doth make his Signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! [Al-Mâ'idah, 5: 75]

The Noble Quran summed the proof of their humanity in these words, They both used to eat food, which stresses their humanity and politely imply the need to answer the call of nature like any other human being. 

8-If a god why did he appear once to a certain group of people only? Why did not he appear in every era for people to believe in his divinity? Would not he be an unjust god appearing only to a few people? 
What about those who came before the mission of Jesus, have they no share in the sacrifice? 

The conclusive answer is that his appearance for a certain group of people bears witness to his Prophethood; a Prophet whom Allah had sent to guide a certain group of people, such is the mission of all the Prophets. But the Prophet Muhammad (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) was sent to the entire humanity till the Last Hour befalls.

9-Allah created the heavens, the earth, the mountains, the seas, the sun, the moon, the stars, the planets, Paradise, Hellfire and all that exists, if gods what did they create? 

We Muslims perfectly know the miracles of the Prophet Jesus:
-Allah supported the Prophet Jesus with signs for people to believe, like all previous prophets (ex: the stick of the Prophet Moses, peace be upon them) they all happened by the Will of Allah. The Noble Quran says what means:

And will make him ['Iesa (Jesus)] a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): 'I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allahs Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allahs Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe. And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurât (Torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So fear Allah and obey me.' 

We have to bear in mind that the miracles that Allah supported Jesus with, all happened by His Leave: The bird was not brought out of nothing; the bird was first shaped of clay, the clay that Allah created, and after breathing into it, it became a bird by the Leave of Allah, a sign for his people to believe. The miracle was only restricted to birds so that people would not fall into the error of believing him to be a creator. Just as holding a seed in your hand that show no symptoms of life and then you sow it and only by the Leave of Allah it becomes a long shady tree, pulsing with life. By sowing this little seed are you the creator of the tree? Of course not. And the same apply to all the miracles that only happened by the Leave of Allah. 

Apart from the miracles mentioned in the Quranic verses, my question is: did he create anything in you? Anything in the universe? No. Then why do you worship him?????

Steal a glance at creation of the heavens and the earth, the sun and the moons, the stars and plants, the mountains and endless deserts, the oceans and seas, the birds and insects, the animals and whales all are testifying that there is no god but Allah, the One and Only. And here comes the challenge of Allah addressed to all mankind, a challenge that bends the heads in meditation. Listen to the Challenge of Allah addressed through the noble Quranic verse saying what means: 

O mankind! A similitude has been coined, so listen to it (carefully): Verily! Those on whom you call besides Allah, cannot create (even) a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly snatched away a thing from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought. (Al-Hajj, 22: 73)

10-The Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) talked in the cradle, a Miracle for people to believe in Allah as well as a Sign of the Absolute Power of Allah and to silence any malicious tongues. Mary was relieved of the burden of having to defend herself before her people. She was kindly ordered to keep silent; she is to eat and drink and be glad, while Providence would masterfully handle the defense. The Noble Quran says (what means):

So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say: Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent (Allah) so I shall not speak to any human being this day. [Maryam, 19: 26]

The Glorious Quran then vividly relates the scene, as if we now see Mary going to her people and carrying her child in her arms, through the verses saying what means: 

Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariya (an unheard mighty thing). O sister (i.e. the like) of Hârûn (Aaron)! Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman. Then she pointed to him. They said: How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle? [Maryam, 19: 27-29]

And the miracle happened and the baby talked in the cradle, so what did he say?

He ['Iesa (Jesus)] said: Verily! I am a servant of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet. And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me Salât (prayer), and Zakât, as long as I live. And dutiful to my mother, and made me not arrogant, unblest. And Salâm (peace) be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive.  [Maryam, 19: 30-33]

- Salvation according to your law: the son of god died for your sins! Christ Has Paid Our Penalty! Sacrifice a dove to wash the sins of wolves? The just is to be killed for the unjust? By his blood he paid for all the sins of humanity, but we wonder who will pay the penalty for the wrong done to him? Or would it pass untried? Or would it be all humanity? 

What is that law??? As if telling man: sin man, as you like for Christ has paid the penalty!!!

Does not that law annul the purpose of the life of this world? The purpose of worldly life lies in its being an abode of trial where Allah, all praise and glory be to Him, tries His servants in obeying Him. According to this blood-law the pious is stupid, why not sin, kill, steal, drink wine, commit adultery and obscenities, for it is for free, Christ Has Paid Our Penalty??

Would you sacrifice a toe of your son for your other vicious son? No, you would not. It would be injustice done to your good son. Do you see to whom injustice is ascribed blindly, because if injustice is committed against one soul as if committed against all humanity? Would Allah, the Most Just, offer a servant of His for the entire humanity to torture him, lash him, mock at him, humiliate him, spit at him and then crucify him to wash by his blood the sin of the entire humanity? What about him who was crucified and sacrificed?

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## dark_182_88

I dont wanna get into all what you mentioned above, since im sure Diadem will be much better doing so, but i just have a few remarks. Jesus, in arabic, is called Yasou', which comes from Yeshwa (in aramaic). The name Issa has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus, however they use his name in the Qur'an as Jesus. In the Qur'an, they speak about the holy trinity. They speak about the father, Jesus, and Mary as the holy trinity. Don't you see something wrong in that? I mean, they're changing christianity, and creating characters, and making it sound all but nothing close to the truth. And that is supposed to be Allah's word and all. And I would like to stress once again, that Jesus was brought to Earth as a human, stripped from his godly powers. I think Diadem has already mentioned that. So your arguments do not make much sense up there.


Anyways, you forgot to answer me this, so I thought I'd just copy it again for you.



> Lover of Jesus, what you say shows an erroneous error. God is perfect, God is smart, God knows better. Therefore how can he say "Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause". What is this!! God knows perfectly well that humans are not objective. God knows perfectly well that I might be fighting with you, but we might both be wrong. God knows perfectly well that, if me and you are fighting, then we are both wrong. In no case whatsoever in a human fight or problem, can one side be wrong and the other be totaly right. That's why Jesus has said thou which is without sins cast the first stone. God knows perfectly well that a human being cannot look at things at a 100% objective point of view. Therefore if you give a sentence such as the one above, it is 100% sure that everyone will mis-interpret it. It is 100% sure that each and every person will think that he is right, and the other is wrong, and that he serves a just cause. God is way smarter than that to say such a thing, specialy in medieval times. 
> 
> Another thing. When you say, if someone does bad to you, you do bad to that someone. What does that tell you? If we go on that example, then not one good thing will ever come. Let's take an example, back in medieval times lets say. You steal an egg of my chicken, I go back and steal one of the eggs of your chicken. You go back and steal more, I do the same. You go back, steal my chicken, I go back and do the same. You go back and kill my chickens, I go back and do the same. You go back and kill my son, I go back and kill your son. And it goes on.
> 
> Dealing evil with evil breeds more evil. Dealing evil with evil gets us nowhere and is absolute non-sense. Therefore if those are the words of God then God must be really dumb, no offense.
> 
> 
> And on a final note. When Muhammad started his islamic conquest, he used the sword. Islam was propagated with the use of the sword. That is why you see many muslims carrying a sword in their necklaces for example. Muhammad, transgressed other lands, and used the sword to conquer new lands and spread the religion of Islam. So this automaticaly means that Muhammad (God's prophet) used killing and approved killing to convert people to his religion. Do you think God approves with that? Doesn't that sound a bit wrong? Specialy that he went to others' lands, not the other way around (since you said if someone transgresses you, you have the right to get back at them; but if its the other way around then no way is it permissible).
> 
> Do you see any contradictions?

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## Diadem

My answers will, of course, be related to Christianity according to the Bible. And, some people read the Koran. Therefore, we won't see eye-to-eye. I was simply explaining how Christians see it.

So, we'll just agree to disagree as Muslims and Christians usually do.

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## Diadem

> First of all the example of the circle never been mentioned by Jesus Or any other profit in the old testament.
> 
> I will discuss your example any way.
> 
> you said
> The whole circle, the Trinity (God), has 3 equal parts.
> 
> This means that God is divided into 3 parts and each part is not a complete God.
> That's against the faith law. 
> ...


Jesus was God the Father manifested in the flesh. Bliblical scripture confirmed it. I posted the exact scriptures. I don't know what else you're expecting me to say?  :Thumbs Up:

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## Nightshade

> My answers will, of course, be related to Christianity according to the Bible. And, some people read the Koran (Hadeeth). Therefore, we won't see eye-to-eye. I was simply explaining how Christians see it.
> 
> So, we'll just agree to disagree as Muslims and Christians usually do.


YEs agreed to disagree but may I ask why you put (hadeeth) after Koran?
Doesnt that grammatically mean the hadeeth is another namefor the koran?
Just a small grammer question  :Nod:

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## Diadem

> YEs agreed to disagree but may I ask why you put (hadeeth) after Koran?
> Doesnt that grammatically mean the hadeeth is another namefor the koran?
> Just a small grammer question


Ah, you're right. They are two different books. My apologies.  :Smile:

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## lover of jesus

> Jesus was God the Father manifested in the flesh. Bliblical scripture confirmed it. I posted the exact scriptures. I don't know what else you're expecting me to say?


Unfortunately, if you see it clearly, you would see that you are only worshiping:

- A man who was beaten & humilated (Luke 22:63-64).
- A man who was spat on him (Matthew 26:67).
- Who was hiding when he knew that Jews want to kill him (John 11:53:54).
- Who was captured by the Jews (John 18:2-3).
- Who DIED "in your belief" (Mark 15:37), (John 19:33).
- Who was hungry (Matthew 4:2, 21:18) & (Mark 11:12).
- Who was thirsty (John 19:28).
- Who was sleepy (Matthew 8:24).
- Who was weary (John 4:6).
- Who was groaning (John 11:33, 38).
- Who wept (John 11:35).
- Who was sorrowed (Matthew 26:37) & (Matthew 26:38).
- Who was learning through experience (Hebrews 5:8).
- Who was growing and developing (Luke 2:52).
- Who was powerless as he said that he can do nothing by himself (John 5:30).
- Who does not know when is the Judgement Day (Mark 13:32).
- Who had brothers and brothers in law (Matthew 13:54-56).
- Who was circumcised (Luke 2:21).
- Who was delivered through by a woman like any human being (Luke 26). 
- even his mother had the pain of delievery as every woman (Revelation 12:2). 
- Who sucked the milk from his mother like any child (Luke 11:27). 
- Who was eating and drinking (Matthew 11:19) & (Luke 7:34). 
- Who could not find a place to lay his head (Matthew 8:20).

If you see all the characters above, you would clearly rule out any possibility that Jesus was God or even befitting to be God. He was a man, a great man, a very noble man, a great prophet "peace be upon him", but not God. Unfortunately, you turned your heart and worshipped a man (A bit similar to what the Hindu does), but you could not realize that a man can not become God, no matter how he tries. Because a man is a very low level, while God is the Greatness, the Creator, the one who should be worshipped, rather than worshiping someone else.

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## Nightshade

You know no offence to either of you but I dont see the point in religon bashing or trying to change peoples belief. I think Religon should be a private thing and lt people believe in whatever they wish. I mean noone can be 100 million% sure they're right can they . We are afterall all humans. Its my beilef that in the end we will all find out one way or the other who is right and in till then everyone should go on there own paths
 :Biggrin:  Diadem (did I spell that right?) its alright just wondered if my grammer has been more wrong than I thought  :Biggrin:

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## Diadem

> Unfortunately, if you see it clearly, you would see that you are only worshiping:
> 
> - A man who was beaten & humilated (Luke 22:63-64).
> - A man who was spat on him (Matthew 26:67).
> - Who was hiding when he knew that Jews want to kill him (John 11:53:54).
> - Who was captured by the Jews (John 18:2-3).
> - Who DIED "in your belief" (Mark 15:37), (John 19:33).
> - Who was hungry (Matthew 4:2, 21:18) & (Mark 11:12).
> - Who was thirsty (John 19:28).
> ...


He did not have godly powers while in the flesh. The father stripped them from him. I thought I already explained that? lol

Anyway, I'm not trying to convert anyone. I was simply posting information as Christians see it.

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## lover of jesus

> He did not have godly powers while in the flesh. The father stripped them from him. I thought I already explained that? lol
> 
> .



so , he is not a GOD
???

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## lover of jesus

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Mark 12:29 Jesus said "Here, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The words "our God" indicate that Jesus had a higher God over him, a stronger God than him. Jesus didn't say "Your God". He said "our God" which includes Jesus as the creation of GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 20:17 Jesus said I ascend to my God and your God? This tells us that we and Jesus have a common GOD.

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 8:28 Jesus said "I do nothing of myself"? Can't GOD do anything he wills?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"?If Jesus was GOD, then why in Luke 23:46 Jesus said "Father (GOD), into thy hands I commend my spirit"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 19:16 Jesus said "Why call me good, there is none good but One, that is GOD"?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus begged his GOD to have mercy on him and to pass the cup to death (kill Jesus in another words) before Jesus goes through the pain of 
crucifixion? Also see: Jesus's crucifixion in Islam

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 18:38 he didn't reply when he was asked about the truth?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 24:36 Jesus told his followers that no one (including Jesus) knows when the judgment day will come, only GOD knows?
If Jesus was GOD, then why in Isiah 11:2-3 GOD had put the spirit of fearing GOD in Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:31 Jesus told his followers that if he (Jesus) bears witness of himself, then his record is not true?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:30 Jesus told his followers that he can't do a single thing of his own initiative?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:36-38 Jesus said that GOD had assigned him (Jesus) work and GOD is a witness on Jesus?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in John 5:32 Jesus told his followers that they have never seen GOD at anytime nor ever heard his voice?

If Jesus was GOD, then why did he pray to his GOD in Luke 5:16?

If Jesus was GOD, then why in Matthew 26:39 Jesus fell on his face and prayed to his GOD?


this is from bible...

i admit that he is agreat prophet (peace should be upon him)...



___________

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## lover of jesus

and If salvation is through what Jesus has done and not through what you can do, and if Jesus has erased all your sins, if salvation is through what he has done, then why do you care to be even good, just do all the evil things and you will still be saved since you have "an open cheque" of forgiveness. Once you realize these statements that I'm writing, you will see that you are not right is stating that "Salvation is not what I can do. It is in what Christ has done.".

There is no doubt about what Jesus Christ "peace be upon him" did. He did all the good things in this life, but to make what he did a way for your salvation is only a trick that was used by the Devil to let people do whatever they want and still get the salvation. That's why you would see the Christian world nowadays are having the biggest number of crimes, suicides, incest, adultary, children of adultary, alcoholics, homosexualities, murders etc.

This is again a matter of concept: Everyone is responsible for his own mistakes and good deeds. It is already unfair to bring Christ and let him suffer for things that were not done by him. You believe in something that does not make a good concept and it also again shows God as an unfair God who will let someone innocent suffer for something that others did. It is again a character of God which you are underestimating by showing that He is unfair in what He does. 

God let you live in this life to believe in Him to worship Him in the proper way and the best way and then by all the good deeds that you do in this life which will bring you at a higher level in heaven. The key to salvation is through the believe that there is no God but ALLAH, the One, with no sons. After you hold the key, then all your deeds will have a value. If you don't have the key of salvation, then you will not get salvation no matter how good you try to be because you commit the biggest sin which is in not believing in the true God or let's say in underestimating God the Almighty.

Moreover, even the Bible states that the son's sin and the father's should be treated separately:

Ezekiel 18:
19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 
20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. 

The above verse destroys the whole concept of Christianity in all its aspects from concept of the original sin to the crucifiction of Christ to save mankind.

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## dark_182_88

lover of jesus, salam,

I do not understand why you keep on bringing up the same arguments over and over again. And Diadem keeps on saying the same thing over and over again. I really don't see the point of what's going on between you 2.

And I don't understand why you didn't reply to my post yet  :Frown: 
I mean I don't know if you just don't want to answer it just tell me I don't wanna answer and I'll understand. If you do, then here's the post again, http://www.online-literature.com/for...0&postcount=86. Sheesh this is the third time that i post it :S

Shalom  :Smile:

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## lover of jesus

over of Jesus, what you say shows an erroneous error. God is perfect, God is smart, God knows better. Therefore how can he say "Nor take life, which Allah has made sacred, except for just cause". What is this!! God knows perfectly well that humans are not objective. God knows perfectly well that I might be fighting with you, but we might both be wrong. God knows perfectly well that, if me and you are fighting, then we are both wrong. In no case whatsoever in a human fight or problem, can one side be wrong and the other be totaly right. That's why Jesus has said thou which is without sins cast the first stone. God knows perfectly well that a human being cannot look at things at a 100% objective point of view. Therefore if you give a sentence such as the one above, it is 100% sure that everyone will mis-interpret it. It is 100% sure that each and every person will think that he is right, and the other is wrong, and that he serves a just cause. God is way smarter than that to say such a thing, specialy in medieval times

Yes ,Allah knows every thing even our intention either it is bad or good , He shows us the right and wrong way and give us the right to choose

When you say, if someone does bad to you, you do bad to that someone. What does that tell you? If we go on that example, then not one good thing will ever come. Let's take an example, back in medieval times lets say. You steal an egg of my chicken, I go back and steal one of the eggs of your chicken. You go back and steal more, I do the same. You go back, steal my chicken, I go back and do the same. You go back and kill my chickens, I go back and do the same. You go back and kill my son, I go back and kill your son. And it goes on

You are totally wrong , if some one kill your son you can either kill him or forgive him but why you will kill his son??he is innocent and you kill the killer not the son of the killer!! this is not from islam at all

And on a final note. When Muhammad started his islamic conquest, he used the sword


I have posted reply for this issue 
When we us esward we use it to protect our country from invaders and this is our right 

.

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## lover of jesus

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch3-11.htm


http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch3-12.htm


both of these links for explain

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## prince

Thank u Lover 

you nice muslim  :Wink:  


 


 :Smile:

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## dark_182_88

> Yes ,Allah knows every thing even our intention either it is bad or good , He shows us the right and wrong way and give us the right to choose


What kind of answer is this!! You haven't answered it at all. Read again what I said and try replying to it. Allah, is smarter than that. And he knows pretty damn well that statements as such will bring nothing but chaos. 

And anyways, where does your Allah give us the right to choose?
Are you talking about the dhimmis? Are you talking about every non-muslim which has to pay taxes for muslims to show that he is inferior. To show that he has submited to the muslims. Because either he becomes a muslim, or he starts paying them taxes so that he can keep his faith, and even to that he lives under filthy conditions which make him inferior to other humans. And if he doesn't accept to live as a dhimmi, he's killed. Oh yeah, Allah gives us the right to choose. 





> You are totally wrong , if some one kill your son you can either kill him or forgive him but why you will kill his son??he is innocent and you kill the killer not the son of the killer!! this is not from islam at all


Dude. You're changing what I said and using it to your own benefit. I didn't necesarily mean to kill his son. You can take it as killing him, the same person. Where does that get you. Back to what I said, according to Islam and the Qur'an, if someone does bad to you, you do bad to him. Do you justify this as right? Do you justify this as God's thinking? Do you think that God tells us to go kill a dude if he tries killing us, or if he kills our relatives? Do you think that God tells us to go attack a dude if another dude attacks us? Come on, try answering what Im saying instead of avoiding all what I say and answering in one short sentence which is off-topic anyways.





> I have posted reply for this issue 
> When we us esward we use it to protect our country from invaders and this is our right


Maybe you've posted a reply for this issue, but I haven't seen it.

Tell me my friend, what country are you talking about? First, Saudi Arabia didn't even exist. There were cities. And, Muhammad went on, outside of Saudi Arabia, and he used the sword to oblige people to submit to islam and to him. The islamic conquest didn't happen in one or two towns in which Muhammad was residing. The islamic conquest happened all the way up to Spain and Europe. Were those people invaders as well?


Last but not least, try giving me a full answer, instead of going around in circles and not even giving a right answer, and giving me links. Weird, how you were attacking Diadem and posting arguments after arguments after arguments, which he even replied to but you would go back to posting the same arguments; while when I ask you questions about your religion, and I give you arguments after arguments after arguments, all you can do is not answer me until I post it 3times, and after that you give me half-complete sentences which avoid what I say and take them out of context, and don't even reply what I said, and then you give me some links coz u can't answer them yourself.

Way to go  :Thumbs Up:

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## dark_182_88

> Thank u Lover 
> 
> you nice muslim



Oh, by the way. Doesn't Islam and Muhammad say that the black man is a rotten grain which got sunburned, and that is how we got black men?

I know that isn't exactly what is said, but this is like a summary of how the black man is described (which is also described as inferior)

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## bhekti

Dear Lover of Jesus,

I'm afraid your Jesus is not the same as the Jesus worshipped by Christians. I think there is no point of contact which can be used as a ground for making a communication, or a discussion, or a debate about Jesus possible between you and a Christian. What do you think?

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## Logos

> Oh, by the way. Doesn't Islam and Muhammad say that the black man is a rotten grain which got sunburned, and that is how we got black men?
> 
> I know that isn't exactly what is said, but this is like a summary of how the black man is described (which is also described as inferior)


This forum is not here to discuss the inferiority, implied or otherwise, of _anyone_ of any nationality, religion, or belief. 

And on that note, this topic is now closed.

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