# Reading > General Literature >  Is English A Difficult Language?

## muhsin

I, days ago, read a thread written by our “omniscient-like” Logos, titled…… :Brow:  where follows that thread were bundle of replies. There then, I learnt that we, who English isn’t our MT or L1 are the majority members of this Site. 
Eventually, notwithstanding the fact that we almost all have been studying this language for years, one can easily detect this or that isn’t an English native speaker. What’s the truth behind this? Is the language that is difficult or what? What actually made it difficult or simple to you?

NB: I, in particular, know that lots of time, my English is terrible. The great problem I’m being facing is that of writing good, plain…grammar and speaking in public. So, to me, English is simple but very vast in content as its difficult to cover everything.

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## T.D. Anderson

I think thats a problem every one is facing. Speaking fluidly in public is hard enough but if the words don´t come easy to your mind und you have to spend a lot of time searching for them you get nervous and make even more mistakes.
But this, like almost everything else in our lives, is a matter of practice. If you speak every day in public you will automatically get better and the words will come faster and your grammar and the sound of your speeches will improve.
The "vastness" of the language, as you have called it, is another thing. Every language is vast to a man or woman learning it. The trick is not to learn every word the language contains but the words often used and that are necessary for speaking and writing a language. Every language contains outmoded, few used, technical terms and foreign words that you could learn but almost never apply.

To answer the question. I don´t think that english is a difficult language. Learning it is compared to learning french or german a lot easier. The reason why you can be easily detected as a not native speaker is apart from the grammar mistakes you make the use of "rigid" english as I like to call it. You have learned the language in the kind it should be spoken. So you absolutly have no connection to usual abreviations or colloquial terms. That is why your language seems to a native speaker rigid. At least I think it is that way.
You and I speak as Goethe would say "...Eure Reden, die so blinkend sind, In denen ihr der Menschheit Schnitzel kräuselt, Sind unerquicklich wie der Nebelwind..."(Vers 554-556)

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## PeterL

> I, days ago, read a thread written by our omniscient-like Logos, titled where follows that thread were bundle of replies. There then, I learnt that we, who English isnt our MT or L1 are the majority members of this Site.


I hadn't realized that, but I only look at limited parts of the site.




> Eventually, notwithstanding the fact that we almost all have been studying this language for years, one can easily detect this or that isnt an English native speaker. Whats the truth behind this? Is the language that is difficult or what?
> 
> NB: I, in particular, know that lots of time, my English is terrible. The great problem Im being facing is that of writing good, plaingrammar and speaking in public. So, to me, English is simple but very vast in content as its difficult to cover everything.


I have known many to whom English was not the first language. Some of them thought that English was very difficult, while others did not. Because English developed as a mixture of several languages, there often are several words that mean the same, or almost the same, and those different words are not related (Pig, pork, and swine, for example), but each word has a slightly different meaning. One feature of English that makes it much easier than some other languages is the lack of inflections. One guy I know from West Africa pointed out that the lack of different articles for genders made English easy compared to German, French, etc., that have different articles for different genders. The only way to learn a language well is to use the language.

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## Eufrosyne

English isn't a difficult language to learn, and that's for one reason. That is that about 70% (OK, that's only a guess!) of the tv I, at least, watch is in English. I live in Sweden, and actually all of the tv-series I can recall watching are in English. So, naturally, it's much easier to learn English than for example French. Well, that's what I think, anyway, but at the same time it's difficult because there are so many synonyms.

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## Shannanigan

It's easy to learn English if you are surrounded by it, sure, but if you live in a place that speaks only Gofringenese (made up language by yours truly  :Smile: ) and it's between learning English or some other popular foreign language, I definitely think that English would be the harder one to learn. Sure the lack of feminine/masculine articles makes ONE aspect easier...but for the rest of the language, there are way more "irregulars" than at least Spanish, as far as I know...

I'm a native English speaker learning Spanish, let me just say I'm kind of glad its not the other way around. Having lived in LA and watched many Latin-American friends and family members learning to speak English, even with the help of language programs, I can say that they appeared to have a much harder time than I am, mostly due to "exceptions" in English to certain rules.

Did you know that "fishes" is now the grammatically correct plural of "fish"? Woohoo for the evolution of language! lol...

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## Woland

One of the funny things about english is the high pitched "a" sound like in "that" "at" and "fat". Appearently it's found in very few languages.

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## Shannanigan

hehe, yeah, even the English dialect spoken here usually avoids that sound, and they make fun of tourists who use it...

they say: "Hey mon, you eat yet? Oh, wait, I sorry...hey mAn, you Ate yet?"

its funny to hear, maybe not to read, lol

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## Jtolj

The irregular verbs in English are few actually. Spanish has a ridiculous amount. 

Anyway, English, except for spelling and pronunciation, is ridiculously easy (compared to the languages of Europe), because the grammar is simplified and generally regular beyond about a couple hundred instances (that's way better than the couple thousand instances of Spanish and French). But it's also really big, so hard to fully grip, but no one fully grips all of English.

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## tiny explorer

*English is an internatonal language...meaning it has been the language which people are capable of learning easily.of course there aint a person who can grip the whole foundaton of it...somehow it's a good medium for every race..well does it make any sense?

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## Woland

> hehe, yeah, even the English dialect spoken here usually avoids that sound, and they make fun of tourists who use it...
> 
> they say: "Hey mon, you eat yet? Oh, wait, I sorry...hey mAn, you Ate yet?"
> 
> its funny to hear, maybe not to read, lol


Yea it is a ridiculous sound. It's similiar when doctors ask you to open your mouth and say "ahh" as in father but when they put the tounge depressor in your mouth to take a peek around the "ah" sound becomes the funny Aa sound.

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## Jtolj

> It's easy to learn English if you are surrounded by it, sure, but if you live in a place that speaks only Gofringenese (made up language by yours truly ) and it's between learning English or some other popular foreign language, I definitely think that English would be the harder one to learn. Sure the lack of feminine/masculine articles makes ONE aspect easier...but for the rest of the language, there are way more "irregulars" than at least Spanish, as far as I know...
> 
> I'm a native English speaker learning Spanish, let me just say I'm kind of glad its not the other way around. Having lived in LA and watched many Latin-American friends and family members learning to speak English, even with the help of language programs, I can say that they appeared to have a much harder time than I am, mostly due to "exceptions" in English to certain rules.
> 
> Did you know that "fishes" is now the grammatically correct plural of "fish"? Woohoo for the evolution of language! lol...


I also learned Spanish. I found it to be very hard (not as in I couldn't do it but as in I objectively recognized it as hard and put in the large amount work to do it) Spanish has a ridiculous amount of conjugations, homophonal articles/pronouns (much harder to learn than English homophones), a large amount of irregulars, and a difficult reflexive system. Wait, you're head might explode once you're in advanced Spanish.

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## Shannanigan

lol, I dunno, so far so good, maybe I was just meant to speak Spanish, heehee...

I've just seen people learning English having much more trouble than people learning Spanish, I guess. Maybe it's just my surroundings...the people I knew learning English were also holding onto Spanish in their homes and neighborhoods, the people I know learning Spanish are trying very hard to sumberse themselves in it...

I guess that could affect the way I see it...

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## Goodfella

> It's easy to learn English if you are surrounded by it, sure, but if you live in a place that speaks only Gofringenese (made up language by yours truly ) and it's between learning English or some other popular foreign language, I definitely think that English would be the harder one to learn. Sure the lack of feminine/masculine articles makes ONE aspect easier...but for the rest of the language, there are way more "irregulars" than at least Spanish, as far as I know...
> 
> I'm a native English speaker learning Spanish, let me just say I'm kind of glad its not the other way around. Having lived in LA and watched many Latin-American friends and family members learning to speak English, even with the help of language programs, I can say that they appeared to have a much harder time than I am, mostly due to "exceptions" in English to certain rules.
> 
> Did you know that "fishes" is now the grammatically correct plural of "fish"? Woohoo for the evolution of language! lol...


*Shanna* has finished everything here. Any language if you are sorrounded with it, so you can easily learn it. But, if not ..... :Bawling:  
To me, its sincerely difficult 'cos am not living in the area where English is use as the lingua franca...think of it....only in schools or at home in TV I use to catch it. Oh! _wahala_!

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## muhsin

> I think thats a problem every one is facing. Speaking fluidly in public is hard enough but if the words don´t come easy to your mind und you have to spend a lot of time searching for them you get nervous and make even more mistakes.
> But this, like almost everything else in our lives, is a matter of practice. If you speak every day in public you will automatically get better and the words will come faster and your grammar and the sound of your speeches will improve.
> The "vastness" of the language, as you have called it, is another thing. Every language is vast to a man or woman learning it. The trick is not to learn every word the language contains but the words often used and that are necessary for speaking and writing a language. Every language contains outmoded, few used, technical terms and foreign words that you could learn but almost never apply.
> 
> To answer the question. I don´t think that english is a difficult language. Learning it is compared to learning french or german a lot easier. The reason why you can be easily detected as a not native speaker is apart from the grammar mistakes you make the use of "rigid" english as I like to call it. You have learned the language in the kind it should be spoken. So you absolutly have no connection to usual abreviations or colloquial terms. That is why your language seems to a native speaker rigid. At least I think it is that way.
> You and I speak as Goethe would say "...Eure Reden, die so blinkend sind, In denen ihr der Menschheit Schnitzel kräuselt, Sind unerquicklich wie der Nebelwind..."(Vers 554-556)


This is really impressive, thoughfull, erudite...... You absolutely write a very good observation and by Allah's grace I'll start doing this practical you suggested.
Thanks.

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## muhsin

> I hadn't realized that, but I only look at limited parts of the site.
> 
> 
> 
> I have known many to whom English was not the first language. Some of them thought that English was very difficult, while others did not. Because English developed as a mixture of several languages, there often are several words that mean the same, or almost the same, and those different words are not related (Pig, pork, and swine, for example), but each word has a slightly different meaning. One feature of English that makes it much easier than some other languages is the lack of inflections. One guy I know from West Africa pointed out that the lack of different articles for genders made English easy compared to German, French, etc., that have different articles for different genders. The only way to learn a language well is to use the language.


Please, re-read my thread for better comprehension dear. I didn't exactly say its difficult because I can speak whereever I find myself with the language. so....no enough time but when I come back, right?

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## Logos

A link to the topic muhsin mentions  :Smile:  "Is English your first language?"
http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=14464

I agree that the best way to learn any language, in this case English, is to be fully immersed (if possible) with other people who speak it while studying the alphabet and spelling and grammar. Television and movies can be a good substitute too! 

MSN Encarta dictionary
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/english.html

has a handy *audio* option so you can hear how individual words are pronounced, you just click the green speaker icon  :Smile:

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## muhsin

> *English is an internatonal language...meaning it has been the language which people are capable of learning easily.of course there aint a person who can grip the whole foundaton of it...somehow it's a good medium for every race..well does it make any sense?


 That enable us to communicate. OK?

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## bazarov

English is not hard to learn, especially because of TV, internet and all those modern things. With that and some obligate school classes, it's actually easy...

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## bubble

I think English is one of, if not the easiest language to learn. As bazarov said, due to the large availability of English language media, you can easily improve your listening and reading abilities and given the fact that it is an international language, you will always be able to find someone through whom you can improve your speaking skills.

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## muhsin

> A link to the topic muhsin mentions  "Is English your first language?"
> http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=14464
> 
> I agree that the best way to learn any language, in this case English, is to be fully immersed (if possible) with other people who speak it while studying the alphabet and spelling and grammar. Television and movies can be a good substitute too! 
> 
> MSN Encarta dictionary
> http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/english.html
> 
> has a handy *audio* option so you can hear how individual words are pronounced, you just click the green speaker icon


Thanks for the links.

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## muhsin

> English is not hard to learn, especially because of TV, internet and all those modern things. With that and some obligate school classes, it's actually easy...


Unfortunetely, some people don't have easy access to all these modern things. eg. here in my country, we're paying money of large amount to browse. Thus, there are plenty people who do also want see themselves browsing but do to "world enemy" they cannot afford to do that. 
I think you are from a developed country, arent you? Okay, you can.... :Flare:

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## Nossa

> I, days ago, read a thread written by our “omniscient-like” Logos, titled…… where follows that thread were bundle of replies. There then, I learnt that we, who English isn’t our MT or L1 are the majority members of this Site. 
> Eventually, notwithstanding the fact that we almost all have been studying this language for years, one can easily detect this or that isn’t an English native speaker. What’s the truth behind this? Is the language that is difficult or what? What actually made it difficult or simple to you?
> 
> NB: I, in particular, know that lots of time, my English is terrible. The great problem I’m being facing is that of writing good, plain…grammar and speaking in public. So, to me, English is simple but very vast in content as its difficult to cover everything.


Hey there Muhsin,
I'm not an English native speaker, obviously..lol
I don't claim that I'm good in English..I try to do my best...cuz it's not exaclty the easiest language ever...
I think that if you excelled in a language, one can't exaclty tell if you're not a native speaker of it..at least not in the way you write it...
Cuz simply some native speakers of English make spelling mistakes, same as anyone else...it's all about your ability to understand and memorize certain things...doesn't have to do with where you're from....
I think on the board here, and as you mentioned, most of us are not native English speakers...but honestly, I couldn't tell who's a native speaker and who's not...
And as mentioned before...you can learn English by many means...
The most simple one is by "reading"...anyone can have access to reading, if you can't have access to the net or tv or any of this...
English isn't the easiest language ever as I said, but that doesn't mean that it's hard too...it's just like anything else...it's hard when you decide it's hard...it's all about the human mind!

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## PeterL

> And as mentioned before...you can learn English by many means...
> The most simple one is by "reading"...anyone can have access to reading, if you can't have access to the net or tv or any of this...


Yes, the simplest and least expensive way to learn English is by reading. Reading expands the vocabulary and understanding. You can tell who reads a lot and who doesn't by listening to them, paying attention to the size of vocablary.

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## ClaesGefvenberg

> English isn't a difficult language to learn, and that's for one reason. That is that about 70% (OK, that's only a guess!) of the tv I, at least, watch is in English. I live in Sweden, and actually all of the tv-series I can recall watching are in English.


I have to agree. It is a fact that we are inundated by the English language here in Sweden. Even before the days of satelite or cable tv, we kept the original language of almost everything that was broadcast here... We just added subtitles.

Another thing is that you can find remains of Scandinavian languages in Britan in general and in Scotland in particular. We'll have to blaim the vikings for that, I guess.  :Brow:  

Speaking for myself, I have to say that English came easily to me. I couldn't pass for a native speaker, of course, but that hardly matters, does it?

/Claes

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## Nossa

> Yes, the simplest and least expensive way to learn English is by reading. Reading expands the vocabulary and understanding. You can tell who reads a lot and who doesn't by listening to them, paying attention to the size of vocablary.


I totally agree on this...
Reading can make you perfect in English...then you don't have to be a native english speaker OR to be even living in any of native speaking countries..

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## miss tenderness

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by PeterL 
> Yes, the simplest and least expensive way to learn English is by reading. Reading expands the vocabulary and understanding. You can tell who reads a lot and who doesn't by listening to them, paying attention to the size of vocablary.
> 
> I totally agree on this...
> Reading can make you perfect in English...then you don't have to be a native english speaker OR to be even living in any of native speaking countries..


All right, all this makes sense; however, does reading really make you PERFECT in English? I don't think so. It actually offers great improvement in learning a language but it does not help much with learning how to speak the language. I mean a person can have a big amount of vocab., grammar usage but then when he is put in a situation where he has to communicate, he might be unable to do so. So practice the language in real situation is also vital. Thus, there are many suggested methods as to which way is the best to teach a target language ,such as: grammar translation methods(concentrates on learning Grammar ), communication method(on semi real input situations for a learner)…..and many other.

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## Goodfella

> Yes, the simplest and least expensive way to learn English is by reading. Reading expands the vocabulary and understanding. You can tell who reads a lot and who doesn't by listening to them, paying attention to the size of vocablary.


But, lots of people find it boring to read intensively.......So what about listening? Doesn't that also means something for learning English as it helps one to improve his pronounciation? What do you think about that?*PeterL*

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## muhsin

> Hey there Muhsin,
> I'm not an English native speaker, obviously..lol
> I don't claim that I'm good in English..I try to do my best...cuz it's not exaclty the easiest language ever...
> I think that if you excelled in a language, one can't exaclty tell if you're not a native speaker of it..at least not in the way you write it...
> Cuz simply some native speakers of English make spelling mistakes, same as anyone else...it's all about your ability to understand and memorize certain things...doesn't have to do with where you're from....
> I think on the board here, and as you mentioned, most of us are not native English speakers...but honestly, I couldn't tell who's a native speaker and who's not...
> And as mentioned before...you can learn English by many means...
> The most simple one is by "reading"...anyone can have access to reading, if you can't have access to the net or tv or any of this...
> English isn't the easiest language ever as I said, but that doesn't mean that it's hard too...it's just like anything else...it's hard when you decide it's hard...it's all about the human mind!


 :Thumbs Up:  *Nossa* is right; English isn't difficult but hard to learn; like anything....Lol :Brow:

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## muhsin

> But, lots of people find it boring to read intensively.......So what about listening? Doesn't that also means something for learning English as it helps one to improve his pronounciation? What do you think about that?*PeterL*


Yes they find it so 'cuz they don't wanna learn! As far as you wanna learn, reading is an essential thing for you to do. Thus, *Goodfella*, what you was saying is sincerely, frankly baseless. Think another reason.

Oh, are you likes? Probably. So, better desist and imbibe good culture.

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## Chrysalisyah

> Unfortunetely, some people don't have easy access to all these modern things. eg. here in my country, we're paying money of large amount to browse. Thus, there are plenty people who do also want see themselves browsing but do to "world enemy" they cannot afford to do that. 
> I think you are from a developed country, arent you? Okay, you can....


Unfortunately, this still happens. Not all people from developed countries can converse well in English. They may gain easy access to modern technology and live in such hi-tech world, but without the heart to learn; english isn't something that is easy to learn.

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## muhsin

> Unfortunately, this still happens. Not all people from developed countries can converse well in English. They may gain easy access to modern technology and live in such hi-tech world, but without the heart to learn; english isn't something that is easy to learn.


I never know this thing happens. 
In the last line you stated the reason. We also, despite the problem I had mentioned earlier, learn English. For example I myself. I really learn English under a very uncondusive atmosphere. Read my post under this one. I'll stated some of these problems we're being facing here in my country relating to learning it.

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## muhsin

Poblems of learning English in my country and liekly others;
 :Biggrin:  Inconsitency between English spellings and their pronounciation. eg H in 'ghost','honest' etc. K in 'knowledge','knight' etc.
 :Biggrin:  Mother Tongue Interference
 :Biggrin:  Attitudinal Problem
 :Biggrin:  Problem of Quack Teachers
 :Biggrin:  Pedagogical Problem
 :Biggrin:  Material Problem
 :Biggrin:  etc
If you look at any from the above, you'll see that it really is a great problem in English teaching-learning process.
How is it in your country? Are they same problems or there are some others?

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## Chrysalisyah

> I never know this thing happens. 
> In the last line you stated the reason. We also, despite the problem I had mentioned earlier, learn English. For example I myself. I really learn English under a very uncondusive atmosphere. Read my post under this one. I'll stated some of these problems we're being facing here in my country relating to learning it.


When you have the will, you'll learn to appreciate knowledge more. In this case, you're willing to undergo such circumstances.  :Thumbs Up:

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## Chrysalisyah

> Poblems of learning English in my country and liekly others;
>  Inconsitency between English spellings and their pronounciation. eg H in 'ghost','honest' etc. K in 'knowledge','knight' etc.
>  Mother Tongue Interference
>  Attitudinal Problem
>  Problem of Quack Teachers
>  Pedagogical Problem
>  Material Problem
>  etc
> If you look at any from the above, you'll see that it really is a great problem in English teaching-learning process.
> How is it in your country? Are they same problems or there are some others?


Same here. Except for the quack teachers and material problem; in remote parts of the country. We have Multimedia Super Corridor(MSC) project launched a few years back in the country. We have "Sekolah Bestari" (smart school), schools are equipped with online learning/conferencing, et cetera. But, like I said before; if you don't have the will to learn, you'll go nowhere. The students in 9th and 10th grade in our country learn science and mathematics subjects in english. Yet, some still have the difficulties catching up in studies.

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## geetanjali

English is not a difficult language when compared to so many other languages of the world. Since it is unphonetic it appears difficult at times for learners learning it as a second language or foreign language. Now just look at all of us on this forum , we are communicating because of English (just as much as the internet)
English is the Lingua Franca of the world ( & Lingua Franca is a french borrowing) Today English has more speakers the worldover when compared to the native country. Nuguib Mahafouz who won the Nobel Prize for literature recently is an Arab(originally from Egypt) , & the first one to win this honour in the middle east. 
Public speaking does need good language, be it English or any other. But it is important to remember " Language is the dress of thought - Dr.Samuel Johnson" . We need to have good thoughts ,then automatically our expression is going to be good.
English being unphonetic it becomes important to have a pronuncing dictionary for learners. George bernard Shaw said "English is the only language where you pronunce 'phet' as 'fish' , use the 'ph' in 'ephermal', 'e' in 'women' and 't' in 'caution' ! 
Whatever it is, it is English that has brought us together here, English speakers outnumber the Englishmen & today some of the most beautiful pieces of writing are coming out of the pens from Africa & South-Asia. the Chinese are on the spree learning English before they host the Olympics 2008.
The Man Booker Prize of the year was bagged by a young Indian writer Kiran Desai for her novel 'The Inheretence of Loss'. undoubtdly English is here to stay & will some day become the mother tongue of the world.

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## geetanjali

Hey Muhsin does not seem to have any great English Language problem - Muhsin 's language is passingly excellent if not arrestingly beautiful. Just forget all quack teachers & rely on guided self study when it comes to language. Always remember that a non-native speaker of English is far ahead of the native speaker - afterall it's his/her second language & yet he can perform as well as a native speaker ( some non-native speakers can be better than native speakers). So go ahead and better you English. It is not difficult, only thinking makes it so. Am I right Muhsin?

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## muhsin

> Hey Muhsin does not seem to have any great English Language problem - Muhsin 's language is passingly excellent if not arrestingly beautiful. Just forget all quack teachers & rely on guided self study when it comes to language. Always remember that a non-native speaker of English is far ahead of the native speaker - afterall it's his/her second language & yet he can perform as well as a native speaker ( some non-native speakers can be better than native speakers). So go ahead and better you English. It is not difficult, only thinking makes it so. Am I right Muhsin?


What an eneffable?
I had never seen a post-a funniest one like this very one, 'cuz I had never been praised like this time. However thanks for that.
Once again. I'm "he" not "she" as you doubted in your post.
Also, the language isn't difficult. But whoever took it so, must definitely find the way he takes it.
Thnaks for your encouragement. :Thumbs Up:

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## muhsin

> Same here. Except for the quack teachers and material problem; in remote parts of the country. We have Multimedia Super Corridor(MSC) project launched a few years back in the country. We have "Sekolah Bestari" (smart school), schools are equipped with online learning/conferencing, et cetera. But, like I said before; if you don't have the will to learn, you'll go nowhere. The students in 9th and 10th grade in our country learn science and mathematics subjects in english. Yet, some still have the difficulties catching up in studies.


How sure you are that you don't got quack teachers problems. Is it not in only your school (maybe of boys who were born with a silver spoon?) Don't you think that? But, it seems this problem is every where?

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## Goodfella

> Poblems of learning English in my country and liekly others;
>  Inconsitency between English spellings and their pronounciation. eg H in 'ghost','honest' etc. K in 'knowledge','knight' etc.
>  Mother Tongue Interference
>  Attitudinal Problem
>  Problem of Quack Teachers
>  Pedagogical Problem
>  Material Problem
>  etc
> If you look at any from the above, you'll see that it really is a great problem in English teaching-learning process.
> How is it in your country? Are they same problems or there are some others?


Almost exactly same here in my country. How do you think these problems can be solved? Government? Students? Or both? :Idea:

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## Goodfella

> English is not a difficult language when compared to so many other languages of the world. Since it is unphonetic it appears difficult at times for learners learning it as a second language or foreign language. Now just look at all of us on this forum , we are communicating because of English (just as much as the internet)
> English is the Lingua Franca of the world ( & Lingua Franca is a french borrowing) Today English has more speakers the worldover when compared to the native country. Nuguib Mahafouz who won the Nobel Prize for literature recently is an Arab(originally from Egypt) , & the first one to win this honour in the middle east. 
> Public speaking does need good language, be it English or any other. But it is important to remember " Language is the dress of thought - Dr.Samuel Johnson" . We need to have good thoughts ,then automatically our expression is going to be good.
> English being unphonetic it becomes important to have a pronuncing dictionary for learners. George bernard Shaw said "English is the only language where you pronunce 'phet' as 'fish' , use the 'ph' in 'ephermal', 'e' in 'women' and 't' in 'caution' ! 
> Whatever it is, it is English that has brought us together here, English speakers outnumber the Englishmen & today some of the most beautiful pieces of writing are coming out of the pens from Africa & South-Asia. the Chinese are on the spree learning English before they host the Olympics 2008.
> The Man Booker Prize of the year was bagged by a young Indian writer Kiran Desai for her novel 'The Inheretence of Loss'. undoubtdly English is here to stay & will some day become the mother tongue of the world.


Oh my dear, forget 'bout so-called comparism here. Is it difficult on its own or not...I think that 's the point.
The answer is always under our nose but we human always stay going wild :Idea:  ; As I cunningly gather from your post; English is quiet difficult even to you but not as difficult as you faced when learning other languages. Is that right?..lol :FRlol:

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## Goodfella

> Yes they find it so 'cuz they don't wanna learn! As far as you wanna learn, reading is an essential thing for you to do. Thus, *Goodfella*, what you was saying is sincerely, frankly baseless. Think another reason.
> 
> Oh, are you likes? Probably. So, better desist and imbibe good culture.


Who knows? :Crash:

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## muhsin

> Who knows?


Don't you know? Do you really mean that? Or you're just kidding...so you must be dear. :Idea:

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## muhsin

> Almost exactly same here in my country. How do you think these problems can be solved? Government? Students? Or both?


Both. But its more on us-student. Right?

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## Taliesin

Well, the question does depend on some things.
First, for example, how related your mother tongue is to english or , how many linguistically similar constructions are there? English is simpler to learn for speakers of Indo-European languages, esp. germanic languages.(or those languages that have been greatly influenced by indoeuropean languages/germanic lanugages/english) Similar words and grammatical constructions. Similar language logic. When the tongue is based on a grammar system that is completely different from your own, it is harder to learn.
Trying to look at things from the universal perspective, there are things in each language that make the learning of it difficult. For example, the mutations in celtic tongues, articles in german, large number of cases in finno-ugric languages besides other things. Things that make a language difficult to learn are exceptions, things you simply have to memorize. The kinds of things that people who made up artificial languages tried to avoid to make learning them be simpler.
But such things in english - we have learned english for too long a time to see any of those difficult things in it. Perhaps the tenses and the usage of them? But is that difficult?

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## Turk

English is hard as other foreign languages, English is easy as other foreign languages.

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## Koa

Of course it's all relative but the English grammar is almost ridicolously easy. It's difficult to master it completely, but I never had big problems with it, and I wasn't exposed to it much since the TV where i'm from is all dubbed so no I hardly ever watched things in English - in fact it's still not always easy to understand spoken English adn I dont speak as well as I write, but it took me basically no effort to learn English, it came really natural and only at the high level I have some problem

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## Sweet-Annie

I personally think that English is really an easy language to learn. There are almost no verbs, you dont have a formal way or talking to someone and there is no gender. Plus, you can have a complete access thanks to the mass media.

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## muhsin

> English is hard as other foreign languages, English is easy as other foreign languages.


A bit contradicted post.

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## Neovia

> I totally agree on this...
> Reading can make you perfect in English...then you don't have to be a native english speaker OR to be even living in any of native speaking countries..


Maybe "perfect" (I doubt anyone can become perfect even in their own mother tongue) in written language, but one would never learn to speak nor listen spoken language just by reading. One would find many words that seem to be familiar on paper, odd when they are spoken. Espeacially in English, in which written and spoken language differ from each other.

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## muhsin

> I personally think that English is really an easy language to learn. There are almost no verbs, you dont have a formal way or talking to someone and there is no gender. Plus, you can have a complete access thanks to the mass media.


I'm  :Confused:  *Sweet-Annie* by your statement "you don't have a formal way or talking to someone....." What do you reallt mean here. I think English has a formal and informal way of speaking. To me this is another thing that can make the language difficult for some people to learn.
Moreover, English has approving, disapproving, old-fashioned, offensive, slang etc words. Undentifying each.....isn't that a big deal for its learners?

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## platinum

Guys, tell me please how to place a question that will be seen and replied?

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## Goodfella

> Guys, tell me please how to place a question that will be seen and replied?


Write it in good contructed and plain language, isn't it? This will certainly hepl you make what you wanna say very palpable. :Cold:

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## Goodfella

> I'm  *Sweet-Annie* by your statement "you don't have a formal way or talking to someone....." What do you reallt mean here. I think English has a formal and informal way of speaking. To me this is another thing that can make the language difficult for some people to learn.
> Moreover, English has approving, disapproving, old-fashioned, offensive, slang etc words. Undentifying each.....isn't that a big deal for its learners?


Why are you always bringing too much _wahala_ always dear? :Redface:

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## Goodfella

> Of course it's all relative but the English grammar is almost ridicolously easy. It's difficult to master it completely, but I never had big problems with it, and I wasn't exposed to it much since the TV where i'm from is all dubbed so no I hardly ever watched things in English - in fact it's still not always easy to understand spoken English adn I dont speak as well as I write, but it took me basically no effort to learn English, it came really natural and only at the high level I have some problem


That's truly true. English grammar...._kai_ its extremely a huge room I swear.

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## Turk

> Whatever it is, it is English that has brought us together here, English speakers outnumber the Englishmen & today some of the most beautiful pieces of writing are coming out of the pens from Africa & South-Asia. the Chinese are on the spree learning English before they host the Olympics 2008.
> The Man Booker Prize of the year was bagged by a young Indian writer Kiran Desai for her novel 'The Inheretence of Loss'. undoubtdly English is here to stay & will some day become the mother tongue of the world.


Maybe before English, English imperialism brought you here. And i really don't believe if an Indian writes in English he can be considered as Indian writer. His blood can be Indian. But since his culture is English culture, he can't be consider as Indian writer.

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## Sweet-Annie

muhsin: I think I didn't make myself clear on that one. Its really hard to put in words a definition for that (if you don't know Spanish). So let me give you a definition I found on the internet.

"In most varieties of Spanish, there are two singular forms of the second person pronoun: Usted and tú. The former is a formal pronoun, used for social superiors and new acquaintances. The latter is familiar. 'Tutear' is a verb meaning 'to address someone as "tú"'. However, the meaning isn't purely linguistic: It indicates familiarity. Thus, 'Puedes tutearme' (You can address me as "tú"') is an invitation to familiarity. The connotation is similar to the English phrase 'to be on a first name basis with', but I can't think, off-hand, of an English term or phrase that describes personal relationships through linguistic usage in the same way."

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## muhsin

> muhsin: I think I didn't make myself clear on that one. Its really hard to put in words a definition for that (if you don't know Spanish). So let me give you a definition I found on the internet.
> 
> "In most varieties of Spanish, there are two singular forms of the second person pronoun: Usted and tú. The former is a formal pronoun, used for social superiors and new acquaintances. The latter is familiar. 'Tutear' is a verb meaning 'to address someone as "tú"'. However, the meaning isn't purely linguistic: It indicates familiarity. Thus, 'Puedes tutearme' (You can address me as "tú"') is an invitation to familiarity. The connotation is similar to the English phrase 'to be on a first name basis with', but I can't think, off-hand, of an English term or phrase that describes personal relationships through linguistic usage in the same way."


Thanks for such clarifications.

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## Goodfella

What's last word arrived here? It seems, from the measure I've taken that; there are two people that had fight here. Both two people had succeded in that fighting by wounding each other- so this thread showed.
What I simply meant above is that; some said English is simple and others said it's difficult. And moreover, each gorup had given a very tangible reason(s). To me, perssonally, English is..... :Crash:   :Idea:  isn't it? LOL!!!!!!!!!

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## AliasX

> I think English has a formal and informal way of speaking. To me this is another thing that can make the language difficult for some people to learn.
> Moreover, English has approving, disapproving, old-fashioned, offensive, slang etc words.


Im not a native speaker, and this is definitely one of the problems Ive encountered while studying English, but Id like to know whether those words/phrases that have the abbreviation BrE (British English) next to them in a dictionary can be easily understood by Americans, and the other way round? Or you sometimes have difficulties? (Im asking this only native speakers)
My question probably sounds stupid to you, but I would really appreciate the answer.

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## Goodfella

> Im not a native speaker, and this is definitely one of the problems Ive encountered while studying English, but Id like to know whether those words/phrases that have the abbreviation BrE (British English) next to them in a dictionary can be easily understood by Americans, and the other way round? Or you sometimes have difficulties? (Im asking this only native speakers)
> My question probably sounds stupid to you, but I would really appreciate the answer.


Its indicated below your user name that you're a new member. But, you need not to specify who you like to answer your question. Even the native speaker himself won't like know this answer.
To me (a person with infant-like English) it certainly will sound differ but well understood. More expecially that nowadays, AmE is widely spoken even in Great Britain eg in BBC programs etc. Isn't it my people?

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## Goodfella

> muhsin: I think I didn't make myself clear on that one. Its really hard to put in words a definition for that (if you don't know Spanish). So let me give you a definition I found on the internet.
> 
> "In most varieties of Spanish, there are two singular forms of the second person pronoun: Usted and tú. The former is a formal pronoun, used for social superiors and new acquaintances. The latter is familiar. 'Tutear' is a verb meaning 'to address someone as "tú"'. However, the meaning isn't purely linguistic: It indicates familiarity. Thus, 'Puedes tutearme' (You can address me as "tú"') is an invitation to familiarity. The connotation is similar to the English phrase 'to be on a first name basis with', but I can't think, off-hand, of an English term or phrase that describes personal relationships through linguistic usage in the same way."


Your language (Spanish, eh?) it works just like my language.

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## AliasX

> Its indicated below your user name that you're a new member. But, you need not to specify who you like to answer your question. Even the native speaker himself won't like know this answer.


I know I dont have to, but I just want to find out how things seem from their perspective. To me, its all the same if someone says, for instance, aubergine or eggplant, but to native speakers one of these two might sound strange. Or not. So thats why Im asking. Are those differencies important in real-life situations? Or when a dictionary says AmE it means the word is used MAINLY in AmE, but theres no problem I use it in BrE? You've already answered this, but I'd also like to see what other people think...

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## Goodfella

> I know I dont have to, but I just want to find out how things seem from their perspective. To me, its all the same if someone says, for instance, aubergine or eggplant, but to native speakers one of these two might sound strange. Or not. So thats why Im asking. Are those differencies important in real-life situations? Or when a dictionary says AmE it means the word is used MAINLY in AmE, but theres no problem I use it in BrE? You've already answered this, but I'd also like to see what other people think...



Okay. I now fathom what you were saying.I hope English natives will offer this help very anon.

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## muhsin

> I know I dont have to, but I just want to find out how things seem from their perspective. To me, its all the same if someone says, for instance, aubergine or eggplant, but to native speakers one of these two might sound strange. Or not. So thats why Im asking. Are those differencies important in real-life situations? Or when a dictionary says AmE it means the word is used MAINLY in AmE, but theres no problem I use it in BrE? You've already answered this, but I'd also like to see what other people think...



Somebody here needs your response natives speakers of English! Where are you?

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## higley

It can go either way. Sometimes a word is used mainly in American English or British English but can be understood in either, and sometimes it's specific just to one or the other. It really depends. In some cases the terms AmE or BrE refer to slang, which really wouldn't be understood by anyone outside the region it originated in, unless the slang spread in popularity.

In real life, speaking BrE to an American might bring a small bit of confusion, but that's easily corrected, I think.

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## Goodfella

> Its indicated below your user name that you're a new member. But, you need not to specify who you like to answer your question. Even the native speaker himself won't like know this answer.
> To me (a person with infant-like English) it certainly will sound differ but well understood. More expecially that nowadays, AmE is widely spoken even in Great Britain eg in BBC programs etc. Isn't it my people?





> It can go either way. Sometimes a word is used mainly in American English or British English but can be understood in either, and sometimes it's specific just to one or the other. It really depends. In some cases the terms AmE or BrE refer to slang, which really wouldn't be understood by anyone outside the region it originated in, unless the slang spread in popularity.
> 
> In real life, speaking BrE to an American might bring a small bit of confusion, but that's easily corrected, I think.


I thank God that my forgoing thought is along the line as above reply made by *higley* manifest.

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## AliasX

> In real life, speaking BrE to an American might bring a small bit of confusion, but that's easily corrected, I think.


Thats all I wanted to know, thanks  :Thumbs Up:

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## Dorian Gray

English is a very easy language to learn I think. I thought German, French and Spanish was more difficult. 

(I'm a student English teacher)

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## Evi

English seems a very easy language in the beginning, as we are "bombardised" by it as the majority of the films, songs and everything it is in English so we are getting used to it. 
But in a higher lever of speach English isnt such an easy language. For me Italian, Spanish and generally the languages that are based on latin are much more easy to learn. 

Evi

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## Dorian Gray

> For me Italian, Spanish and generally the languages that are based on latin are much more easy to learn.


Spanish and Italian are so similar. My mom lived in Italy for a year and spoke only Spanish when she moved there. She picked up Italian rather easily. 

I only took Spanish for a year (French too) at secondary school and I'd love to take some courses sometime. I'm considering language travel.

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## muhsin

> English is a very easy language to learn I think. I thought German, French and Spanish was more difficult. 
> 
> (I'm a student English teacher)


You said that because (maybe) you are not expose in learning other languages you enumerated. I don't quiet mean its (English) difficult rather, from what others said about other languages I learnt that.

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## muhsin

> Spanish and Italian are so similar. My mom lived in Italy for a year and spoke only Spanish when she moved there. She picked up Italian rather easily. 
> 
> I only took Spanish for a year (French too) at secondary school and I'd love to take some courses sometime. I'm considering language travel.


Great dear. How many languages can you now speak and write. It sounds you can speak many. I wish I could do such.

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## muhsin

> English seems a very easy language in the beginning, as we are "bombardised" by it as the majority of the films, songs and everything it is in English so we are getting used to it. 
> But in a higher lever of speach English isnt such an easy language. For me Italian, Spanish and generally the languages that are based on latin are much more easy to learn. 
> 
> Evi



I am very delighted having your contribution in this thread.
Pls. don't ask me for the reason.

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## Goodfella

> I am very delighted having your contribution in this thread.
> Pls. don't ask me for the reason.


Don't ask for reply? Right?

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## Annamariah

I've studied two languages at school, English and Swedish. I think English is a lot easier than Swedish, but maybe it's just because I've heard English much more than Swedish. Music, movies, tv-series, advertisements - you can't possibly avoid English in Finland, and that makes learning it much easier than learning other languages.

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## Goodfella

Great Annamariah, you are right by bringing such reasons as what make English easy to you.

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## Ubiquitous Prat

Im currently learning Italian, i find some of it easy some hard. The hardest part is getting of the ground, learning the words that make the language flow.

As for English, obviously being English i find it diffcult :Wink:  I make spelling mistakes all the time. Lots of the words i use aint in the dictionary  :Biggrin:

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## muhsin

> Im currently learning Italian, i find some of it easy some hard. The hardest part is getting of the ground, learning the words that make the language flow.
> 
> As for English, obviously being English i find it diffcult I make spelling mistakes all the time. Lots of the words i use aint in the dictionary


Speeling errors? How that's happening while you are an English? I'm suprise.

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## Goodfella

> Speeling errors? How that's happening while you are an English? I'm suprise.


Who is above mistake?

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## Goodfella

> Speeling errors? How that's happening while you are an English? I'm suprise.


Who is above mistake? :Idea:

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## muhsin

> Who is above mistake?


That's true. I now got it.

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## Ubiquitous Prat

I make spelling mistakes beacuse of the way i talk, i have a cockney accent, i suppose. Well at least it's my excuse  :Biggrin:

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## srpbritlit

I'm a native English speaker, and thus it is my mother tongue, but I was also brought up speaking French as a second language. One thing I have learned about both tongues is that there are millions of exceptions to the grammatical rules of both languages! And, the exceptions have exceptions! haha

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## metal134

Wow. You guys are crazy. As an American who has spoken English all my life, and speaks it better than most people I know, I can't believe you all say it's an easy language. In my opinion, it is an INCREDIBLY difficult language to learn. And why? Because it is one of the most complex languages there is. I took some spanish in high school and have had exposure to Italian due to my ancestory and those languages are easy because the rules are straight forward and simple. But English has an incredible amount of rules and stipulations and the language doesn't even always follow those rules; there are an enormous number of exceptions. All these rules like i before e excpet after c and yet, look at words like science, policies, consciece, etc. Boatloads of similar, often misused words like affet/effect, between/among, lie/lay, etc. I saw a Gallagher skit once where he compared a bunch of words and how they sound and are spelled. Look at words like comb, tomb, bomb. All spelled the same except for the root letter, all sound different. Comb, home, roam. All sound the same, all spelled different. It seems easy to those who have spoken it all our lives, but I don't buy the notion for one second that this as an easy language. It is, in fact, one of the hardest.

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## Asa Adams

> All these rules like i before e excpet after c and yet, look at words like science, .


 :FRlol:  I can't believe you used that as an example.

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## bazarov

> Wow. You guys are crazy. As an American who has spoken English all my life, and speaks it better than most people I know, I can't believe you all say it's an easy language. In my opinion, it is an INCREDIBLY difficult language to learn. And why? Because it is one of the most complex languages there is. I took some spanish in high school and have had exposure to Italian due to my ancestory and those languages are easy because the rules are straight forward and simple. But English has an incredible amount of rules and stipulations and the language doesn't even always follow those rules; there are an enormous number of exceptions. All these rules like i before e excpet after c and yet, look at words like science, policies, consciece, etc. Boatloads of similar, often misused words like affet/effect, between/among, lie/lay, etc. I saw a Gallagher skit once where he compared a bunch of words and how they sound and are spelled. Look at words like comb, tomb, bomb. All spelled the same except for the root letter, all sound different. Comb, home, roam. All sound the same, all spelled different. It seems easy to those who have spoken it all our lives, but I don't buy the notion for one second that this as an easy language. It is, in fact, one of the hardest.


You Americans are sometimes really unbelievable...Your language is the most difficult, your literature is the best, your culture is the greatest etc. 
You think Spanish or any other language is easy? Ask Cervantes what does he think about your Spanish...I think(and my friends and my teacher and some tourists :Biggrin:  ) that my English is very good, but when I had a discussion with Mono, I needed dictionary, every third or fourth word he used was totally unknown to me! So I guess it's not that good.
Every language has many exceptions, if you don't know them; that doesn't mean they do not exist.

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## aabbcc

I cannot offer but an answer based on personal experience, which might differ slightly or greatly from the experiences of other individuals; the question in itself, of course, cannot be answered objectively.

To me, English was the easiest foreign language to learn. That can be due to many factors - the fact that I started to study English at the age of four, and thus grew up with it; the fact that, because of its international role, English has been very present around and I have had constant exposure to it through the media; or the fact that I have been using it myself a lot since I was a child as my preferred language for reading, personal correspondence, etc. In fact, I do not recall "studying" English - my command of it grew through the years, and I always somehow "knew" it; English was probably not easy due to its structure, but due to exposure and usage - I mastered it as my own language and it is hard for me to view it as "foreign" language.

However, if I were asked to compare the structure of English with the structure of other languages I have studied, there would be a couple of points worth considering.

To start with, morphology - or lack thereof. Compared to any other language I can speak - especially compared to my native Slavic ones or to classical ones - English is a language with practically no morphology to speak of; its words cannot be altered and thus their meanings nuanced in the way Russian language permits it, nor do its verbs have large number of possible forms with multiple endings that must be learnt, as in the case of Ancient Greek; due to its certain lack of complex morphology, English relies to syntax a lot - which, to speak frankly, limits the possibilities of poetic expression quite a bit.

Secondly, the question of vocabulary. English _is_, without a doubt, rich in vocabulary - but how much of that vocabulary is Anglo-Saxon in origin? Roughly 70&#37; [the source is vague in my head, but I have actually read it somewhere] of the modern English vocabulary is Latin-based and acquired via French, with smaller percentages of words from other languages, and thus is modern English vocabulary - for a language which considers itself to be Germanic - one huge mess, and a great discount for learners whose native languages are the Romance ones, especially when one is past the basics [the very basic everyday words in English tend to be of Germanic origin]. Therefore, I would say that English is only moderately difficult in terms of vocabulary for a learner whose objective is not to read authors such as Milton or Shakespeare.

The orthography is, perhaps, the only area in which I would dare to say that English is difficult, because its illogical spelling _is_ the hardest out of all the languages I can speak. Speaking honestly, though, one gets used to all the oddities of the languages one studies, and even though the spelling is messy, its difficulty is still, in my humble opinion, overrated, especially in times like this, when English is _everywhere_ and when it is easier than ever for one to visually get used to the English orthography.

From the acoustic point of view, English is relatively easy to pronounce, its pronunciation is not as "clear" in some languages, but it is not difficult to copy as the sounds English employs are to be found in other languages as well and for the speakers of European languages, it can have a couple of unknown sounds.

Overall, it all depends on what was one's native language, how exposed one is to English, at what age one has started to study it, and how motivated one is at all to learn it. English was not close to my native languages, but I had all the other elements filled - therefore, English was a piece of cake to me, and easier to acquire than languages stereotypically viewed to be "easy", such as Italian [which I started to study at somewhat older age].

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## Silvia

I'm Italian and study English, German and Spanish. In my opinion English is not that simple if compared to the other languages I study, I mean, its rules (especially those concerning tenses) are not as specific and strict as the German ones and I still have some difficulties.
To be honest, I'm better at English than I am at German and Spanish, probably because it's the language I like the most, but my classmates find it much harder....
Now, being italian, I tend to have the classical Italian accent while speaking, so I can say that pronunciation is my great problem, but despite this fact, I like speaking in front of people in English (with my teacher, at MUN sessions, when I travel abroad..) and believe this is one of the most important ways to improve one's skills.

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## PeterL

> I'm a native English speaker, and thus it is my mother tongue, but I was also brought up speaking French as a second language. One thing I have learned about both tongues is that there are millions of exceptions to the grammatical rules of both languages! And, the exceptions have exceptions! haha


It keeps one on one's toes.

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## metal134

> I'm Italian and study English, German and Spanish. In my opinion English is not that simple if compared to the other languages I study, I mean, its rules (especially those concerning tenses) are not as specific and strict as the German ones and I still have some difficulties.
> To be honest, I'm better at English than I am at German and Spanish, probably because it's the language I like the most, but my classmates find it much harder....
> Now, being italian, I tend to have the classical Italian accent while speaking, so I can say that pronunciation is my great problem, but despite this fact, I like speaking in front of people in English (with my teacher, at MUN sessions, when I travel abroad..) and believe this is one of the most important ways to improve one's skills.


Exactly. I'm not saying that english is hard to boost my culture's ego (I do not think America has the best music, movies, or literature (although Faulkner and Steinbeck make a strong tandum)). But having studied Spanish and a little Italian, I have seen how simple the rules are, how few of them there are and how strictly the language adheres to those rules. English has many ruloes, many of which don't even make sense and there are so many deviations from the rule that it can be confusing as hell. Having spoken to people who speak English as a second language, or have mastered a foriegn language, they all tell me that languages like Spanish and Italian easy to learn when compared to english. All of my foriegn language and forigen culture teachers have been universal in the sentiment that English is one of the hardest languages to learn next to Chinese.

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## Reccura

Chinese? Yeah, I do think so, they have so many words when all they have to say is "I think I'm good at this" and it takes so long for them to speak it out. English isn't hard to understand. If you don't want to learn nit, it will be hard to understand, but if you want to, everything comes in handy.  :Tongue:

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## Silvia

> Posted by *meta134*
> _Exactly. I'm not saying that english is hard to boost my culture's ego (I do not think America has the best music, movies, or literature (although Faulkner and Steinbeck make a strong tandum)). But having studied Spanish and a little Italian, I have seen how simple the rules are, how few of them there are and how strictly the language adheres to those rules. English has many ruloes, many of which don't even make sense and there are so many deviations from the rule that it can be confusing as hell. Having spoken to people who speak English as a second language, or have mastered a foriegn language, they all tell me that languages like Spanish and Italian easy to learn when compared to english. All of my foriegn language and forigen culture teachers have been universal in the sentiment that English is one of the hardest languages to learn next to Chinese_.


I agree with what you say about English, but, to be honest, I don't find both Italian and Spanish simple languages.In my opinion, the rules are not that simple, the verbs have LOTS of irregularities, and one of the things I love about Italian is that it is a very "free" language, for example you can change the order of a sentence so many times and the meaning will still be the same.Spanish has a lot of similarities with Italian (even though they differ a lot from each other), and I think that's why I find it so hard to learn.....

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## Moira

I agree Silvia, i also speak Italian and even though it wasn't so difficult to learn, the language has certain impediments when it comes to verb conjugation.
English has many rules indeed but because we are surrounded by music, movies, ads, all in english it became somehow easier and more familiar than any other language. I studyed english grammar in univeristy and it was very difficult but still it was a language that i managed to learn fast and easy enough.

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## SheykAbdullah

English is a very simple language grammatically. In fact, as far as languages go in the world, to my knowledge, only Chinese has a simpler grammaratical structure, so learning grammar in English is easy, same with Chinese. There may be a lot of irregularities in English, but that comes with any language (except Chinese, which I understand has nearly no exceptions. Japanese is similiar). If you want to see real exceptions to rules, look at Arabic. English grammar has no complexity and an extreme amount of regularity when compared with Arabic.

The truth is, there is no 'easiest' language in the world to learn. You saw me mention Chinese is an easy language to learn grammatically, and it is, but understanding it is much more difficult to a Westerner because the tonal and cultural structures of the language are so radically different form our own. Take Japanese as an example, it is another extremely simple language, but tough for a Westerner to learn for syntactical and cultural reasons, but to a Korean Japanese is a lot easier to learn, ridiculously easy, in fact, just as Spanish is easy for a Frenchman to learn, but may be nearly incomprehensible and extraordinarily difficult for, say, an Arab or an African.

Language learning doesn't depend on 'how hard' a language is, but rather what other language(s) you know and how you personally think and organize information on your own. Some languages are easy for one person, but ineffibly difficult for another, it all depends.

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## muhsin

SheykAbdullah, I think you are a linguistic, are you not? I see you above talking of English, first, then Chineese, Japaneese, at al.

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## Koa

> I agree with what you say about English, but, to be honest, I don't find both Italian and Spanish simple languages.In my opinion, the rules are not that simple, the verbs have LOTS of irregularities, and one of the things I love about Italian is that it is a very "free" language, for example you can change the order of a sentence so many times and the meaning will still be the same.Spanish has a lot of similarities with Italian (even though they differ a lot from each other), and I think that's why I find it so hard to learn.....


I think the English grammar is _ridicolously_ easy... simple verb conjugation, simple way to form plurals, no plural form of adjectives... etc. However, it's difficult to master the little nuances perfectly. But I don't think this is the reason why it's easy to spot non-natives (as was asked in the first post) ...it's simply because most of us are not exposed to English enough in our daily lives (well I live in the UK now but before that my only contact with English was on forums. (and music of course). It would be the same for any language.

(as for Spanish and Italian, I have never studied Spanish but it seems so easy, if they speak slowly I can understand and I can make myself understood if needed... if only I wasn't too lazy to take a serious look at the grammar...  :Sick:  )

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## SheykAbdullah

> SheykAbdullah, I think you are a linguistic, are you not? I see you above talking of English, first, then Chineese, Japaneese, at al.


Muhsin, yes I am a linguist. Just out of curiosity, what is your native language(s)?

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## muhsin

> Muhsin, yes I am a linguist. Just out of curiosity, what is your native language(s)?


Oh sorry, linguist. Not as I wrote it. :Thumbs Up:   :Bawling:  

And my native language is an African language, which I can flatly say one of the most spoken language nowadays in West African continent.Its called Hausa. But I again undersatand very few Arabic words or rather expressions/sentences. This I learned from my religious studies. And also English,as you can figure.

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## Nossa

I'm and Egyptian girl, who studied English her entire life, and still studying English and American Literature in university now. For me, English is not that hard, I mean compared to Arabic, for example, English is a piece of cake. And ever compared to French, English is WAY easier than French. I don't agree that English is complex,not at all, it's very simple and more practical that many languages. I mean, look at the French grammar and the English grammar and you'll know what I'm talking about.

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## Aiculík

For me, English is difficult, but not as much as German, or Russian.

But still, there are few things that make it really hard for me to learn it:

1. spelling and pronunciation - when you see English word, you can neve be 100% sure how to pronounce it and vice versa.
2. strange syntax. Which is why my written English is so poor. I try to think in English, but if the subject is more difficult and complicated (e.g. literature  :Smile: ) it's impossible. So I write my Slovak sentences in English... and only when I read it afterwards, I see how unnaturaly it sounds. Somehow, it's easier for me to speak in English, than write. 
3. morphology - in Slovak, words have suffixes which make the meaning absolutely clear. In English, words are just standing next to each other and sometimes it's really difficult to guess the meaning of whole sentence (especially in professional or business texts). 
4. grammar - things like future perfect continuous! It's almost impossible to remember all those tenses and when different situations where they must, can or can't be used. 

So... now I look at it... it's almost everything... Oh well. I can only hope my English _will_ improve one day.  :Biggrin:

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## Fango

Hey, if you had written "I can only hope my English will HAVE improved one day" you would have captured "future present continuous"  :Biggrin: 

But honestly, all those extra-complicated tenses don't matter a whole lot as long as you have your vocabulary worked out.

English is pretty easy COMPARED TO Chinese or even Russian, as people said. Considering the fact verbs and adjectives don't modify themselves according to plural or gender, or the fact you don't have to stress certain parts of the word to make it intelligible, AND the fact it's the most popular TV language and internet language... I'd say that it's pretty easy to acquire. 

Since the basic tenses are so simple (and even pronunciation IMO), English is less about grammar-focus and much more about vocabulary at the end.

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## tinustijger

I agree, English isn't very difficult, the grammar is quite simple. Yet English can describe very many feelings and things in general, you can say things in very many ways in English. 

But maybe I just think English is easy because I read English books and watch a lot of English films and series.

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## JackShea

Is English a difficult language? Let's take the word ROUGH...pronounced...RUFF...Now take the word...Rough...and put a TH in front of it...THROUGH...And a simple word like SAW has two different meanings...I think you get my point...

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## Aunty-lion

I'm a native English speaker and I'm currently learning the indigenous language of my country (Maori) so I guess I'm finally finding out what it's like to have the shoe on the other foot, and be speaking in a language I'm unsure of.

In my country, one of our main problems with education and language is that we are a very multicultural country and therefore we have a lot of immigrants who don't speak English or are just beginning to learn. This is not the problem though. 

The problem is, that a lot of these immigrants think that English is the only useful language, so they choose to speak to their children only in English and don't teach them their native tongue. Often, the English of the parents is not very good, so instead of their children being able to speak good Samoan (or Hindi or Cantonese or Arabic etc etc), they wind up having NO language with which they speak confidently enough to express themselves in. This in turn makes it incredibly hard for them to learn any other languages in the future. 

I think that the most important thing in learning any language, is to first have a "native" language (whether it is the language of your ancestors or not) that you are really truly fluent in. Only then will you have the ability to be able to express yourself clearly in any other languages.

I realize that it is still a hard thing to learn a second (or third or fourth) language. I find it hard every day. But I feel blessed that I can express myself in English, and hope for the day when I am just as fluent in Maori.

By the way, everyone on this forum seems to be very confident and understandable (even if the grammar isn't always 100&#37 :Wink:  so well done if it's not your first language!!! I know I sound really awful when I speak Maori.

I wonder if the problems I've described apply to any of your countries??

Aunty-lion

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## Fango

> Is English a difficult language? Let's take the word ROUGH...pronounced...RUFF...Now take the word...Rough...and put a TH in front of it...THROUGH...And a simple word like SAW has two different meanings...I think you get my point...


Yes, it's not a perfectly phonemic language, however compared to French... ooof.

As far as one word having different meanings....come on, that goes for every language. It's all about comparison, so whenever you think English is "rough", consider comparing it to other languages....

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## Aiculík

> Hey, if you had written "I can only hope my English will HAVE improved one day" you would have captured "future present continuous"


Yes... but that's exactly my problem - while I know teoretically when and how to use it and always get A on exam, in real life, when I don't know that I am tested in future perfect and I don't focus on it, I never remember it even exists.  :Biggrin:  For me, it's natural that words are modified according to gender or plural. The fact that in English it's not so, is one of the reasons I think it's difficult. But I guess everyone considers his own language to be easy and other languages to be much more difficult.

And I'm quite suspicious about "vocabulary without grammar". What's the point of knowing many words, if you don't know how they work together, how to put them into sentence. I tried to learn English without grammar and it was nonsense. I like learning grammar, although it's difficult. 

But I must say, I only begin to like it when I came to university and we begin to study from normal grammar books (e.g. _Student Grammar of Spoken and Written English_). All those coursebooks, or grammar books like Murphy's Grammar are confusing, unsystematicall, never really explaining anything. Duiring all these years, I had been studying from about 20 different coursebooks and grammarbooks, and they were all completely same - nice pictures, maybe even interesting articles, but as for grammar, it was just _mentioned_, never properly _explained_.

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## Panflute

I don't think English is a difficult language. I gradually learned English from cartoons, TV, and all that jazz, though that doesn't say much, because it's a proven fact that children pick up languages way faster than adults. In the past, I found it rather difficult to speak English, but as time passed, I grow more and more used to it, and now I can speak English quite well, sometimes even without a clear accent.  :Smile: 

I have a feeling, though, that I've made a whole bunch of grammar mistakes in this post. Oh well, Murphy's Law, I guess.

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## Fango

Well, for the record I didn't say "vocabulary without grammar", just that _not focusing_ on it seems to work miracles. I always say that if you got the basic tenses figured-out, you just need words, and the rest you can pick up naturally as you go along.

"future present continuous" is a hardly-used tense anyway in my experience. If you know it theoretically, you just need the opportune moment, and they rarely come for this tense. No worries though, you may surprise yourself sooner or later by using it out of the blue. That's how I happened to it.  :Smile:

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## Koa

> Yes, it's not a perfectly phonemic language, however compared to French... ooof.


That's not true. French has spelling rules, so a certain combination of letters gives the same sound in 99,9% of cases (exceptions exist). That doesn't happen in English, as it has been pointed out already.




> I'm a native English speaker and I'm currently learning the indigenous language of my country (Maori) so I guess I'm finally finding out what it's like to have the shoe on the other foot, and be speaking in a language I'm unsure of.
> 
> In my country, one of our main problems with education and language is that we are a very multicultural country and therefore we have a lot of immigrants who don't speak English or are just beginning to learn. This is not the problem though. 
> 
> The problem is, that a lot of these immigrants think that English is the only useful language, so they choose to speak to their children only in English and don't teach them their native tongue. Often, the English of the parents is not very good, so instead of their children being able to speak good Samoan (or Hindi or Cantonese or Arabic etc etc), they wind up having NO language with which they speak confidently enough to express themselves in. This in turn makes it incredibly hard for them to learn any other languages in the future. 
> 
> I think that the most important thing in learning any language, is to first have a "native" language (whether it is the language of your ancestors or not) that you are really truly fluent in. Only then will you have the ability to be able to express yourself clearly in any other languages.
> 
> I realize that it is still a hard thing to learn a second (or third or fourth) language. I find it hard every day. But I feel blessed that I can express myself in English, and hope for the day when I am just as fluent in Maori.
> ...


This is very interesting, I had no idea of that, I think most immigrants I know do speak their native language at home... we're only starting to have a second generation of immigrants in my country, we'll see what happens.

To me, learning foreign languages is so much a part of my life that I find it as natural as reading the newspaper or any other activity you do at least once a week or so. Well I'm not really studying anymore but I think a lot about languages and try to pick up as much as I can... Unfortunately I'm only this comfortable in English, but with some difficulties and mistakes I can hold a conversation in other 2-3 languages... but I would like to be fluent in many more so I feel I'm only partially skilled... :Crash:

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## Fango

> That's not true. French has spelling rules, so a certain combination of letters gives the same sound in 99,9% of cases (exceptions exist). That doesn't happen in English, as it has been pointed out already.


Well, I have no doubt you're right but, and my apologies here, it wasn't really what I meant to say... more like that it (French) has nonsensical spelling rules EVEN compared to English. They just abused or misread the point of the Latin Alphabet or something.  :Wink:

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## Koa

> Well, I have no doubt you're right but, and my apologies here, it wasn't really what I meant to say... more like that it (French) has nonsensical spelling rules EVEN compared to English. They just abused or misread the point of the Latin Alphabet or something.


Then you don't know Hungarian  :FRlol: 

Well, point one, every language's spelling rules make sense if seen from the point of view of that language.
Point two, English can't make more sense simply because it practically has no spelling rules...

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## muhsin

An argument between I and a friend reminded me of this almost 'dying' thread. Thus I feel like re-incarnating it by telling you how it happened some few days ago. And that's...

He said English is hedeosly & grisly difficult. Then I asked him what makes it so...He instantly said; its inconsistencies in written and how it pronounces. I laughed at his discovery and following my reaction he further stressed another point by adding; "It's inregularity also is another biggest problem." By so saying, I asked him to give me example (s), so he started: Present Perfect of the word 'read' is read and its Past Tense is read...etc. He so far so good gave me numerous examples of this nature.

Hmm...what can you say about his claim?

Thanks

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## medusasmile81

Someone wiser than I is believed to have said once: "Everything's relative". I think the difficulty in learning English rests in many factors, including how different your native language is from English. As an Italian who has spent some time in England, I feel quite confortable with grammar and books but I have serious problems understanding spoken English. Of course I tend to use the words derived from Latin (I'll say "create the atmosphere", rather than "create the mood"). My main difficulties are with:
- spelling and pronunciation. I agree with whoever wrote you're never quite sure how to pronounce the English words you read and how to spell the ones you hear. In Italian, in most cases every vowel has always the same sound, even in different words: "a" (sounds like "a" in "accent"), "e" ("egg"), i ("sheet") "o" ("ball"), "u" ("hoover"). We don't have any sound like "i" as in "ship", so the gentlemen here can easily hear some rude Italian call them "son of a beach" :Yawnb: , or swear "sheet!". The most obstinate of us won't deal with the fact that "ea" in "meat" sounds different than in "pleasure", and will claim it's been "a pleesure" to meet you!
- prepositions. Nightmare! Italian words are very specific, expressions like "get in", "get out", "get off", "get up" are translated in Italian with different verbs with a very different morphology. That is a bit confusing for me!
- exceptions. I find English grammar quite easy (even though I apparently received little benefit from that!), especially after I had to study Ancient Greek (crazy!). But my grammar book had no expressions like "gotta go", "you liked it?" "ain't it?". Nevertheless, unlike Italian, English changes very fast as well, which I like a lot. But it's hard to keep myself updated. 
- abbreviations and acronyms. g'n't, blt, nhs... Help! If you have no idea what they're talking about, you'll better ask or you'll get more and more lost. 
- expressions. You really need to be surrounded by native speakers in order to learn. Morever, a language also shapes your way of thinking. My ex boyfriend, a Mancunian, used to complain that I used the expression "to be in love" too easily, which is very common in Italian. When I wanted to be romantic I hardly found suitable expressions for the things I wanted to say, so I had to learn English romance! For example, I wanted to inform my ex his lips were "carnose", an Italian adjective my online dictionary translates with "fleshy, meaty, pulpy", which don't sound very sexy to me. So I remembered Hardy's "Tess", and, forgetting that the book had been written very long ago, I went: "Your lips are bewitching!". He replied "What?!" :Blush:  .

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## Dori

We have a German foreign exchange student and he speaks English rather well, at least compared to the Norwegian that came last year. Actually, come to think of it, he speaks a lot better than the Norwegian. When we tease him about his errors in speaking, he tells us to learn German for five years and go to Germany as a foreign exchange student. He tries to use big words that he learns in our English class and often complicates things (which is humorous, to say the least). For instance, yesterday he asked our chemistry teacher, "May I quench my thirst by utilizing the dihydrogen oxide fountain?" (In other words, "May I get a drink?"). Today I told him to ask our chem teacher, "May I quench my thirst by eliciting a contenting amount of dihydrogen oxide from the drinking fountain? I fear I might become rather vitriolic if I don't satisfy my internal dissatisfaction in this manner, for such is my altering temper that I am prone to commence many an altercation with whomever might refuse to satisfy my request."  :Biggrin:  

He seems to grasp the language easier than most foreign exchange students.

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## medusasmile81

> He tries to use big words that he learns in our English class and often complicates things (which is humorous, to say the least). For instance, yesterday he asked our chemistry teacher, "May I quench my thirst by utilizing the dihydrogen oxide fountain?" (In other words, "May I get a drink?"). Today I told him to ask our chem teacher, "May I quench my thirst by eliciting a contenting amount of dihydrogen oxide from the drinking fountain? I fear I might become rather vitriolic if I don't satisfy my internal dissatisfaction in this manner, for such is my altering temper that I am prone to commence many an altercation with whomever might refuse to satisfy my request."  
> .


lol Yeah, that is a common mistake for people whose native language, compared to English, is rather verbose. Have you ever watched "Love and Death on Long Island"? Everybody makes fun of the protagonist's posh English, whereas he was the only one I could fully understand! I felt silly.

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## Annamariah

> Wow. You guys are crazy. As an American who has spoken English all my life, and speaks it better than most people I know, I can't believe you all say it's an easy language. In my opinion, it is an INCREDIBLY difficult language to learn. And why? Because it is one of the most complex languages there is. I took some spanish in high school and have had exposure to Italian due to my ancestory and those languages are easy because the rules are straight forward and simple. But English has an incredible amount of rules and stipulations and the language doesn't even always follow those rules; there are an enormous number of exceptions. All these rules like i before e excpet after c and yet, look at words like science, policies, consciece, etc. Boatloads of similar, often misused words like affet/effect, between/among, lie/lay, etc. I saw a Gallagher skit once where he compared a bunch of words and how they sound and are spelled. Look at words like comb, tomb, bomb. All spelled the same except for the root letter, all sound different. Comb, home, roam. All sound the same, all spelled different. It seems easy to those who have spoken it all our lives, but I don't buy the notion for one second that this as an easy language. It is, in fact, one of the hardest.


The hardest thing for me was to learn to pronounce English. In Finnish everything is pronounced exactly the same whay than it is written, so it was a shock to realise that in English you can never know for sure how a new word should be said until you hear someone to use it. I don't think that spelling is the difficult part in English, but that may be because when you study study a foreign language, you usually have most of the material written and you learn the spelling automatically.

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## sreeja

English is difficult to me .I think it is not my problem it is the problem everyone facing.I thought that reading English books.news papers and listen to English movie will help very much.are you agree with me?

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## muhsin

> English is difficult to me .I think it is not my problem it is the problem everyone facing.I thought that reading English books.news papers and listen to English movie will help very much.are you agree with me?


Wholly agree with you dear. It really hepls...that's why I too depend heavily at this.

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## Etienne

> Well, I have no doubt you're right but, and my apologies here, it wasn't really what I meant to say... more like that it (French) has nonsensical spelling rules EVEN compared to English. They just abused or misread the point of the Latin Alphabet or something.


Every language has different ways of spelling letters or combinations of letters. You know what about -ed in english or -th, do you pronounce the letters as they are? No. English is not standard and there is no "standard" way of spelling latin letters, that's why we need a phonetic spelling.

My native language is french, but I would say that mot of the difficulties in french is not the spelling, but the grammar rules, but we should say the grammar rules and their exceptions, as there is about the same amount of both  :Tongue:  But at least, we don't have declensions  :Biggrin:

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## muhsin

> Every language has different ways of spelling letters or combinations of letters. You know what about -ed in english or -th, do you pronounce the letters as they are? No. English is not standard and there is no "standard" way of spelling latin letters, that's why we need a phonetic spelling.
> 
> My native language is french, but I would say that mot of the difficulties in french is not the spelling, but the grammar rules, but we should say the grammar rules and their exceptions, as there is about the same amount of both  But at least, we don't have declensions


Don't know or it's only me, as I don't know about in French, that I some times hear the pronounciation of it sound similar, in a bit way, with that English. Is that right?

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## muhsin

Just get this one from an email by a freind. He calls it *21 Reasons Why The English Is So Hard To Learn* and feel sharing it with you here.

1. The bandage was wound around the wound.
2. The farm was used to produce produce.
3. The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.
4. We must polish the Polish furniture.
5. He could lead if he would get the lead out.
6. The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.
7. Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to present the present.
8. A bass was painted on the head of the bass drum.
9. When shot at, the dove dove into the bushes.
10. I did not object to the object.
11. The insurance was invalid for the invalid.
12. There was a row among the oarsmen about how to row.
13. They were too close to the door to close it.
14. The buck does funny things when the does are present.
15. A seamstress and a sewer fell down into a sewer line.
16. To help with planting, the farmer taught his sow to sow.
17. The wind was too strong to wind the sail.
18. After a number of injections my jaw got number.
19. Upon seeing the tear in the painting I shed a tear.
20. I had to subject the subject to a series of tests.
21. How can I intimate this to my most intimate friend

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## blazeofglory

Of course it is one of the most difficult, language and is very difficult and despite the fact that I write lot in this I find it really a hard one. Even now I lack confidence in this.

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## Dori

> Just get this one from an email by a freind. He calls it *21 Reasons Why The English Is So Hard To Learn* and feel sharing it with you here.
> 
> 1. The bandage was wound around the wound.
> 2. The farm was used to produce produce.
> 3. The dump was so full that it had to refuse more refuse.
> 4. We must polish the Polish furniture.
> 5. He could lead if he would get the lead out.
> 6. The soldier decided to desert his dessert in the desert.
> 7. Since there is no time like the present, he thought it was time to present the present.
> ...


Many of the words in these sentences are confusing and superfluous. In most cases you can replace a word with a different, less confusing word (ie. The bandage was *wrapped* around the wound). But I see your point.

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## Etienne

> Of course it is one of the most difficult, language and is very difficult and despite the fact that I write lot in this I find it really a hard one. Even now I lack confidence in this.


Actually, English is far from being "one of the most difficult language".

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## Niamh

Yes English can be a very difficult language for those who havent learned it as a first language.

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## AdoreroDio

I think it's a hard language. It was my first language and speaking it for sixteen years I have realized no one can speak it completely properly because no one knows all the rules. I'm learning Spanish and everything seems to make so much more sense. Not as many double meaning words and the like. Other languages (except Japanese and Chinese) seem likewise easier then English. I mean in what other country do you have to learn your native language from preschool all the way to collage, where if you choose you can learn about all the things you thought you knew about but really didn't?

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## Dori

> I think it's a hard language. It was my first language and speaking it for sixteen years I have realized no one can speak it completely properly because no one knows all the rules. I'm learning Spanish and everything seems to make so much more sense. Not as many double meaning words and the like. Other languages (except Japanese and Chinese) seem likewise easier then English. I mean in what other country do you have to learn your native language from preschool all the way to collage, where if you choose you can learn about all the things you thought you knew about but really didn't?


Concerning your second statement, teenagers don't know the rules because they are, in many cases, so accustomed to speaking incorrectly that it is hard for them to learn how to speak properly. Do u c wut Im sayin? 

The many influences, I think, are what made the English language so confusing. If you ever get a chance, look in your dictionary to see how many words originate from Old English. You won't find many, I can tell you that without even looking. 


My opinion of the English language: it ay be difficult to learn, but it is by no means the hardest language to learn, for such a statement can never be proved. What is hard for some may be easy for others and vice-versa.

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## Sweets America

I have never thought English was a difficult language. I have always taken great pleasure in learning it, I am in love with this language and I go on learning more everyday when I see where I make mistakes. 
I think the English language is a lot easier to learn than the French one. Even though French is my native language, I certainly make more spelling mistakes in French than in English. I have always thought that for some reason, it is easier to learn a foreign language than my native one, because I don't learn it the same way. And now that I've done English phonetics, I have learnt rules which explain why this or that word is pronounced this or that way, it's interesting.
But anyway, I think that about the verbal forms for instance, English is very simple, a lot more simple than French.

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## Etienne

Indeed languages like french (gender), german (declensions), hebrew, arabic (gender, and these last two, when you read there's no vowels in the words, you read only with the consonants, as for arabic, it's almost two different language, the everyday arabic and the literary arabic, also for hebrew there's two different writings), or let's say chinese (this is only heard-of however) are much harder than english. People probably say english is very hard to learn but only because it's the only other language they know other than their native tongue. Well let it be known, your native tongue is probably an harder language than english.

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## Sweets America

> Indeed languages like french (gender), german (declensions), hebrew, arabic (gender, and these last two, when you read there's no vowels in the words, you read only with the consonants, as for arabic, it's almost two different language, the everyday arabic and the literary arabic, also for hebrew there's two different writings), or let's say chinese (this is only heard-of however) are much harder than english. People probably say english is very hard to learn but only because it's the only other language they know other than their native tongue. Well let it be known, your native tongue is probably an harder language than english.


Yes I think the verbal forms in French must be quite complicated for a foreign person!
I only speak a few words of Yiddish and Hebrew, so I cannot say anything about these languages.

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## Niamh

Personally i think Irish is a very hard language to learn. Although it is my native language, its not my primary language, which is english. Like English i've studied it since preschool, but my fluency of the language is very poor.

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## manolia

I can speak greek, german, french and english. Many of you were perhaps exposed to ancient greek so you may understand why I consider my mother tonque more difficult than the rest of the languages i can speak (greek has many irregularities in everyhting, you have to conjugate everything -nouns, verbs, adjectives-...). German are pretty hard too (grammar, syntax and very rich vocabulary with endless compound words :Wink:  ). French is relatively easier (i learned french after having learned english, and the fact that they share so many words - which were originally french of course and were borrowed by english-made french easier for me. English is the easiest of the four (which doesn't mean that it is easy  :Wink:  )

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## Etienne

Does modern greek share many similarities with ancient greek? When I was in Greece I studied a bit of vocabulary to know how to say the basic things, and it seemed very different from ancient greek. So is it mostly the vocabulary that is different?

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## manolia

> Does modern greek share many similarities with ancient greek? When I was in Greece I studied a bit of vocabulary to know how to say the basic things, and it seemed very different from ancient greek. So is it mostly the vocabulary that is different?


Well yes, modern greek is the logical outcome of over than 3 millenia of processing of the greek language. You have to view it as a whole  :Wink:  
The vocabulary is the same (of course in sοme cases the endings have changed - the changes are kinda obvious for a greek person like me but perhaps not for a foreigner)..let's see..example: 

carbon = "άνθρα*ξ*" in ancient greek, "άνθρα*κας*" in modern greek
(notice that the root of the word is the same  :Wink:  ).
climax (a greek word)= "κλίμαξ" in ancient (note that the english language has taken the original form of the word) , "κλίμακα" in modern etc.

It is the grammar that has changed considerably (from ridiculously difficult now it is just very difficult  :FRlol:  ).

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## Etienne

Ok, I don't very little ancient greek, but it seemed like there was a lot of different vocabulary, I remember the small book I had gave the example of "white wine" where both white and wine were different words.

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## manolia

Hehe in modern greek wine is both called "κρασί" or "οίνος" (ring any bells  :Wink:  ).
"Οίνος" is the ancient type of the word and "κρασί" is a more recent one. We use both words. For the word "white" we have two or three ways of saying it "λευκό", "άσπρο" and there is another one that slips my mind now. 
In many cases we use both the ancient type or more recent ones  :Wink:  .

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## blazeofglory

Of course this is a difficult language indeed, despite that it has international importance

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## Etienne

> Hehe in modern greek wine is both called "κρασί" or "οίνος" (ring any bells  ).
> "Οίνος" is the ancient type of the word and "κρασί" is a more recent one. We use both words. For the word "white" we have two or three ways of saying it "λευκό", "άσπρο" and there is another one that slips my mind now. 
> In many cases we use both the ancient type or more recent ones  .


Ohh... that's quite interesting actually! I'll probably end up learning modern greek someday as I plan to go back there, such an amazing country and there's so many things to see and do! I wish I could live there a bit someday...

I wish I could get some greek oranges here, all we get is Florida ones and they're so bad...

----------


## manolia

> Ohh... that's quite interesting actually! I'll probably end up learning modern greek someday as I plan to go back there, such an amazing country and there's so many things to see and do! I wish I could live there a bit someday...
> 
> I wish I could get some greek oranges here, all we get is Florida ones and they're so bad...


Hehe i'll send you some oranges if you like..have so many of them, don't know what to do with them  :FRlol:  

One more thing, even the recent words i mentioned come from ancient greek roots. There is no such thing as a modern greek word  :Wink:  . If you ever need any help with it i'll be glad to assist you  :Wink:  Now let's stop since we are monopolisisng the thread and that isn't good  :Wink:  Feel free to pm me  :Wink:

----------


## brainstrain

The English language itself is quite hard to learn, mainly because of the bizarre way we spell things =P. There are so many irregular plural forms and such, I know that if I was not a native speaker I would probably never be able to learn it.

Kudos to those of you who have learned it! It's no small feat.

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## Fowles27

As a person using English as a second language, I don't think English is a particluarly difficult language to learn, at least grammarwise. 

Well, the verbs tend to be somewhat irregular but not that bad, and genders are simple. My one quibble is, however, the match between spelling and pronunciation. It's a torture...

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## PeterL

> Well, the verbs tend to be somewhat irregular but not that bad, and genders are simple. My one quibble is, however, the match between spelling and pronunciation. It's a torture...


All spelling in English follows pronunciation of the word at some point in the history of the language. Unfortunately, there have been several sets of rules for spelling and the pronunciations have also changed. It isn't just people who learn English as a second language who have trouble with it.

----------


## Sweets America

> All spelling in English follows pronunciation of the word at some point in the history of the language. Unfortunately, there have been several sets of rules for spelling and the pronunciations have also changed. It isn't just people who learn English as a second language who have trouble with it.


Well, as for the rules of pronounciation, I have seen some in my phonetics classes, but of course there are always exceptions. However, a lot of researchers are trying to find new rules which would include a larger amount of words.

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## Viola Kent

English is a difficult language to learn depending of the native language of speaker. but comparing with other latin languages it's quite easy. I'm portuguese and it's easier to learn english than french and spanisf and last ones are very similar to my own but the verb terminations are all diferent from each other what doesn't happen in english.

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## Fowles27

> All spelling in English follows pronunciation of the word at some point in the history of the language. Unfortunately, there have been several sets of rules for spelling and the pronunciations have also changed. It isn't just people who learn English as a second language who have trouble with it.



Agree. As a language with many origins, English was perhaps bound to be a "mess." Also I think English is particularly open when it comes to new words. So its flimsy barrier to entry has made English messier, as well as stronger and elastic.

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## muhsin

Wish I had written this thread in form of poll thread. Why...because I almost count the number of those saying it's difficult are about out-number those saying it is not.

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## Tsingtao

I take the same opinion with mushin.What troubling me now is that, there seems to be much more new things when I learn English longer. every time thinking about this,I almost collapse.I even wonder whether English is worth keeping me learning or not.It my be easy for those to be a fluent English speaker, who have many opportunities to use it.However,it is really hard for others who have few chances to use it.Unfortunately,I am one of the latter.Please,please,tell me what can I do?Should I give up?

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## eyemaker

For me English isn't hard that much...Inculcate "practice" in your mind. Try to practice and practice orally or by writting. It needs more concentration and eagerness to be an efficient speaker...Develop an earnest heart..

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## Ludmila607

To chose a Languaje it is to chose a world...
some one said.I think English it is quite English...I mean.THey are straight to the point, reasoning,utilitarist, realistic.
The English has short words, and verbs, and not to many ambiguity.Like a formula, most of the words seem protocolar...once you learn the formula you learn the idiom.
I like it.I like English English and Scotish English sounds funny.
Latin idioms as Italian, spanish or French sounds more expressive.
Chosing a languaje is chosing a world!

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## muhsin

> I take the same opinion with mushin.What troubling me now is that, there seems to be much more new things when I learn English longer. every time thinking about this,I almost collapse.I even wonder whether English is worth keeping me learning or not.It my be easy for those to be a fluent English speaker, who have many opportunities to use it.However,it is really hard for others who have few chances to use it.Unfortunately,I am one of the latter.Please,please,tell me what can I do?Should I give up?


Is that really my opinion? Hmm....




> Actually, English is far from being "one of the most difficult language".


Then describe how it is.

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## bazarov

English is very easy language.

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## Etienne

Without saying it's very easy, it's easy. People who say it's hard probably say it because it's the only other language they are learning. They're native tongue is probably much harder to learn.

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## Annamariah

I think English is grammatically quite simple. There are not so many different forms of one word like in some other languages, for example in Finnish.

One verb, "laulaa" (to sing)

laulan, lauloin, olen laulanut, olin laulanut (I sing, I sang, I have sung, I had sung)
laulat, lauloit, olet laulanut, olit laulanut (you sing...)
laulaa, lauloi, on laulanut, oli laulanut (she/he/it sings...)
laulamme, lauloimme, olemme laulaneet, olimme laulaneet (we sing...)
laulatte, lauloitte, olette laulaneet, olitte laulaneet (you sing...)
laulavat, lauloivat, ovat laulaneet, olivat laulaneet (they sing)
lauletaan, laulettiin, on laulettu, oli laulettu (is sung)

laulaisin, olisin laulanut ( I would sing, I would have sung)
laulaisit, olisit laulanut (you would sing...)
laulaisi, olisi laulanut (she/he/it would sing...)
laulaisimme, olisimme laulaneet (we would sing...)
laulaisitte, olisitte laulaneet (you would sing...)
laulaisivat, olisivat laulaneet (they would sing...)
laulettaisiin, olisi laulettu (would be sung...)

laula (sing!)
laulakoon 
laulakaamme 
laulakaa
laulakoot

laulanen (I may sing)
laulanet (you...)
laulanee
laulanemme
laulanette
laulanevat
laulettaneen

Those were just verbs. You can also turn verbs into nouns and adjectives, like "laulaminen" - "singing" (as in "I like singing"), or "laulava" - "singing" (as in "a singing bird") and so on. 

"Laulaen" or "laulamalla" - "by singing", "laulamatta" - "without singing" etc.

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## chasestalling

the difficulty is the absence of the formal/informal forms of address.

english is very unique in this sense and because of it the language par excellance --in my view.

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## Etienne

> the difficulty is the absence of the formal/informal forms of address.


There used to be one with thou/you I believe (at least in translations I've seen thou being used as the informal when a distinction had to be made)? Although I don't see why it's a difficulty? It doesn't really make the language any easier or harder actually, but actually gives somewhat less depth I believe. Better have the choice.

And that's a pretty weak criterion to make it "the language par excellence...", how can you judge? How many languages do you know?

----------


## Dori

> I think English is grammatically quite simple. There are not so many different forms of one word like in some other languages, for example in Finnish.
> 
> One verb, "laulaa" (to sing)
> 
> laulan, lauloin, olen laulanut, olin laulanut (I sing, I sang, I have sung, I had sung)
> laulat, lauloit, olet laulanut, olit laulanut (you sing...)
> laulaa, lauloi, on laulanut, oli laulanut (she/he/it sings...)
> laulamme, lauloimme, olemme laulaneet, olimme laulaneet (we sing...)
> laulatte, lauloitte, olette laulaneet, olitte laulaneet (you sing...)
> ...


I heard somewhere that Finnish is one of the hardest languages to learn. From what I've seen here, it certainly does look difficult.

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## metal134

It boggles my mind that everyone is saying English is easy. You want to know why it's hard? Here are some examples of why (and yes, I took the first part of this from Gallagher)>

Tomb Comb
Comb Home
Home Roam
Roam Dome
Dome Some
Some Dumb



_i before e except after c_
science
ancient
percieve
conscience
fancied
efficient

_Use s to pluralize_
child children
ox oxen
deer deer
hoof hooves
crisis crises


The English language is difficult because there are way more rules than any other language and so many exceptions that you could write a book on the excpetions alone. How can a lnguage be easy to learn when a good portion of the time, it doesn't even follow it's own rules? How can a language be easy to learn when there are literally thousands of exceptions to the rules?

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## AFG34

english is easy to learn but its very hard to master IMO.

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## Bakiryu

> I think English is grammatically quite simple. There are not so many different forms of one word like in some other languages, for example in Finnish.
> 
> One verb, "laulaa" (to sing)
> 
> laulan, lauloin, olen laulanut, olin laulanut (I sing, I sang, I have sung, I had sung)
> laulat, lauloit, olet laulanut, olit laulanut (you sing...)
> laulaa, lauloi, on laulanut, oli laulanut (she/he/it sings...)
> laulamme, lauloimme, olemme laulaneet, olimme laulaneet (we sing...)
> laulatte, lauloitte, olette laulaneet, olitte laulaneet (you sing...)
> ...


It looks like spanish, if you think about it. I mean, not in the word but how they are used and such.

*********************************

I've found english a particularly easy language, you just have to memorize words and then perfect pronunciation.

I do like english in that there's no difference between male and female in the words. For example the word, um, Table. Here in the u.s you only say The table and it's just that, not male or female but back home is LA mesa, in the female tense and we have few words that are ambiguous in gender and can be applied to both. Everything is gender-ized.

----------


## chasestalling

> There used to be one with thou/you I believe (at least in translations I've seen thou being used as the informal when a distinction had to be made)? Although I don't see why it's a difficulty? It doesn't really make the language any easier or harder actually, but actually gives somewhat less depth I believe. Better have the choice.
> 
> And that's a pretty weak criterion to make it "the language par excellence...", how can you judge? How many languages do you know?


when addressing a friend or a person of lesser social rank in spanish the word is tu. there's nothing like this in english although as u point out thou may serve as the english version of usted.

i maintain that english is the language par excellance because words are generally used to mask or divert our inner most thoughts; english with its absence of the formal/informal mode deprives its user (or abuser as the case may be) of an escape valve, i.e. silence is more often than not one's best option if he values his precious identity.

just one man's opinion.

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## muhsin

> I think English is grammatically quite simple. There are not so many different forms of one word like in some other languages, for example in Finnish.
> 
> One verb, "laulaa" (to sing)
> 
> laulan, lauloin, olen laulanut, olin laulanut (I sing, I sang, I have sung, I had sung)
> laulat, lauloit, olet laulanut, olit laulanut (you sing...)
> laulaa, lauloi, on laulanut, oli laulanut (she/he/it sings...)
> laulamme, lauloimme, olemme laulaneet, olimme laulaneet (we sing...)
> laulatte, lauloitte, olette laulaneet, olitte laulaneet (you sing...)
> ...


Well...I don't know or it's because this language isn't mine but it seems to me very hard. Any way, any more explanation?

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## Etienne

> It boggles my mind that everyone is saying English is easy. You want to know why it's hard? Here are some examples of why (and yes, I took the first part of this from Gallagher)>
> 
> Tomb Comb
> Comb Home
> Home Roam
> Roam Dome
> Dome Some
> Some Dumb
> 
> ...


Have you ever studied french, for example or any other language for that matter?

"when addressing a friend or a person of lesser social rank in spanish the word is tu. there's nothing like this in english although as u point out thou may serve as the english version of usted."

I know that french is "tu" and "vous", however "thou" was used as the informal, not as the formal. This was from translations, so maybe it was just the better option since they had to use a different word? The best example I can remember was in Tolstoy's War and Peace (if I remember correctly) it was Signet Classics edition.

"when addressing a friend or a person of lesser social rank in spanish the word is tu. there's nothing like this in english although as u point out thou may serve as the english version of usted."

I believe the more precise a language can get and the more range it has to express oneself the better it is. I'm not saying english isn't a nice language, because it is, however I just don't see why the absence of formal/informal, which after all, stays a rather trivial thing in judging of a language as a whole can make it a "language par excellence" which is an expression which basically means the "archetype of languages", which it's absolutely not, by any stretch of imagination. And to be able to say that one language is "the language par excellence" I would assume you know at least 10 or 20 languages? Which is still a rather small sample, but considering it's taken from different families can give a good outlook? How many languages do you know and can use fluently?

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## metal134

Yes, I have. I have studied Spanish. And I said nothing about the quality of the English language. Just because it's difficult to learn doesn't mean it's "par excellence". It's just hard.

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## Etienne

> Yes, I have. I have studied Spanish. And I said nothing about the quality of the English language. Just because it's difficult to learn doesn't mean it's "par excellence". It's just hard.


Well spanish is a pretty easy language to learn, pretty straightforward, so yes, english would be harder than spanish. But still that doesn't make english hard in the grand scheme of languages. Already, you can put all the languages with declensions almost automatically as being harder than english. And english is not an exception in exceptions :P

Oh and about that "par excellence" part, that was directed at chasestalling. Only the first sentence was in answer to your post.

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## chasestalling

etienne, i like to break a lance now and then (at every chance really) and therefore i'm prone to make preposterous statements.

as to how many languages i know 2, only 2, and i wouldn't care to know any more.

eric

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## SleepyWitch

> The English language is difficult because there are way more rules than any other language and so many exceptions that you could write a book on the excpetions alone. How can a lnguage be easy to learn when a good portion of the time, it doesn't even follow it's own rules? How can a language be easy to learn when there are literally thousands of exceptions to the rules?


heheheh  :Smile:  this proves that the people who stated all those rules got it wrong  :Smile:

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## trippy star

English is terribly erratic language. Not only is the grammar lifted from a foreign tongue; many very similar sounding words have completely contradictory meanings. Take, for example, solitary and solidarity. I used to mix those two up all the time! Apart from that, English has a large list of obscure and confusing spellings; all of these make it a difficult language not to speak, but to speak well.

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## metal134

You were able to put it the I've been trying to but was unable; Enlish is a difficult language because it is increcibly erratic.

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## muhsin

> You were able to put it the I've been trying to but was unable; Enlish is a difficult language because it is increcibly erratic.


Yeah...I can see. :Idea:

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## Lote-Tree

> I, days ago, read a thread written by our omniscient-like Logos, titled where follows that thread were bundle of replies. There then, I learnt that we, who English isnt our MT or L1 are the majority members of this Site. 
> Eventually, notwithstanding the fact that we almost all have been studying this language for years, one can easily detect this or that isnt an English native speaker. Whats the truth behind this? Is the language that is difficult or what? What actually made it difficult or simple to you?
> 
> NB: I, in particular, know that lots of time, my English is terrible. The great problem Im being facing is that of writing good, plaingrammar and speaking in public. So, to me, English is simple but very vast in content as its difficult to cover everything.


English Language is PERFECT.

Those who find it difficult is not fault of the Language itself but themselves  :Biggrin:

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## Scheherazade

> English Language is PERFECT.
> 
> Those who find it difficult is not fault of the Language itself but themselves


Is this supposed to be ironic?

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## Lote-Tree

> Is this supposed to be ironic?


Is Self-Mocking Irony?

----------


## Nossa

I don't think English is a difficult language..at least not after reading and learning Arabic all my life. And it's not impossible to master English, and even speak as good as a native speaker would. I know some people, who are German or French, and speak English so good that I didn't believe it when they told me they weren't American or British. It's all a matter of ability and practice..that's what I think at least.

----------


## Lote-Tree

> I don't think English is a difficult language..at least not after reading and learning Arabic all my life. And it's not impossible to master English, and even speak as good as a native speaker would. I know some people, who are German or French, and speak English so good that I didn't believe it when they told me there weren't American or British. It's all a matter of ability and practice..that's what I think at least.


English is a PERFECT Language isn't it  :Biggrin:  Come on admit it  :Biggrin:

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## Nossa

> English is a PERFECT Language isn't it  Come on admit it


Trust me, ANY langauge, compared to Arabic, is GREAT! Arabic is by far the most difficult language on God's Earth.. :FRlol:  I mean, I LOVE my langauage more than any other one, but it's WAY to complicated even for a native speaker..that's why I'm saying English isn't that hard...cuz I've seen worse.. :FRlol:

----------


## Niamh

> English Language is PERFECT.
> 
> Those who find it difficult is not fault of the Language itself but themselves


Passed that test yet lote? :Tongue:   :Wink:

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## Lote-Tree

> Passed that test yet lote?


Not yet lassie. Not yet. But I have not given up yet. It's hard to match upto a Perfection of the Language  :Biggrin: ;-)

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## AuntShecky

> One of the funny things about english is the high pitched "a" sound like in "that" "at" and "fat". Appearently it's found in very few languages.


Yes, you should hear that vowel in western New York, Ohio, and Michigan!
Also -- the "th" sound can be found only in English and
in Greek.

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## mmanuelap

well, English was by far the most easy language I learned. Of course it is erratic, but I think every language is. My native language is Portuguese, but I'm 16 and I still haven't learned all it's rules. You have like, hundred ways to say the same thing, but sometimes it's not correct, sometimes it is. It's complicated. 
I think English is a easy language for those who practice it the most, or for those who have seen worse!  :Tongue:  Here in Brazil, many teenagers have been studying english for 10 years and still don't quite understand it, but it's only because they don't speak it in daily bases or read books in that language.

I agree with Nossa, it's all a matter of ability and practice  :Smile:

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## Etienne

> well, English was by far the most easy language I learned. Of course it is erratic, but I think every language is. My native language is Portuguese, but I'm 16 and I still haven't learned all it's rules. You have like, hundred ways to say the same thing, but sometimes it's not correct, sometimes it is. It's complicated. 
> I think English is a easy language for those who practice it the most, or for those who have seen worse!  Here in Brazil, many teenagers have been studying english for 10 years and still don't quite understand it, but it's only because they don't speak it in daily bases or read books in that language.
> 
> I agree with Nossa, it's all a matter of ability and practice


Exactly... "english is erratic" but every language is! How can people making general judgements when they only know one particular?

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## metal134

No, not every language is. It's been so long since I took Spanish and I forgot much of it, but in studying it, I found that it most certainly wasn't erratic.

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## Etienne

Yes, yes, spanish is rather straightforward, but that doesn't make every language so. And, of course, if you only know the basics you might find it's easy, but once you get more in depth that's when you learn the complexities.

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## mmanuelap

> And, of course, if you only know the basics you might find it's easy, but once you get more in depth that's when you learn the complexities.


exactly!  :Smile:

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## muhsin

> English Language is PERFECT.
> 
> Those who find it difficult is not fault of the Language itself but themselves


Themselves, Lote? But some are always on trial to perfect it and yet you'll see almost always making apparent blunders. What then is the matter?

Though I have already read it means to be ironic then...does it target to people like ***??? Explain...pls.

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## Annamariah

I've studied English for ten years, but I have never been taught any particular rules about spelling. The only thing I remember my teachers have said is that Y changes into I in some cases, like in "cry" and "cries". Otherwise we've just learned the spelling at the same time when we've learned new words at all, so we know how words are written, but not _why_ they are written like that.

I don't think there are so many difficult exceptions in English. I think Swedish was much more difficult to learn. Now I'm studying Russian, and it seems to have quite straightforward rules  :Smile: 

My Russian teacher says that Finnish was extremely difficult to learn. I'm glad it's my mother tongue, so I don't have to try to learn it as a second language  :FRlol:  I like Russian now that I've learned the Cyrillic alphabet, but I'm still having trouble with the seven different "S":s  :Sick:  They are so hard to pronounce, I'm glad we only have one "S" in Finnish  :FRlol: 

"Water" is "vesi" in Finnish. These are all the different forms of the word (both singular and plural) and some examples to show what they mean.

vesi, vedet (water)
veden, vesien (water's)
vettä, vesiä (juon *vettä* - I'm drinking *water*)
vedeksi, vesiksi (se muuttui *vedeksi* - it transformed into *water*)
vetenä, vesinä (as water)
vedessä, vesissä (in water)
vedestä, vesistä (from water)
veteen, vesiin (to water)
vedellä, vesillä (on water, by water)
vedeltä, vesiltä (from water, also in "it tastes like water")
vedelle, vesille (to water)
vedettä, vesittä (without water)
vesineen (with someone's water)
vesin (with/by water)

So that's how many forms of each noun, adjective and pronoun we have  :Biggrin:

----------


## Etienne

> I've studied English for ten years, but I have never been taught any particular rules about spelling. The only thing I remember my teachers have said is that Y changes into I in some cases, like in "cry" and "cries". Otherwise we've just learned the spelling at the same time when we've learned new words at all, so we know how words are written, but not _why_ they are written like that.
> 
> I don't think there are so many difficult exceptions in English. I think Swedish was much more difficult to learn. Now I'm studying Russian, and it seems to have quite straightforward rules 
> 
> My Russian teacher says that Finnish was extremely difficult to learn. I'm glad it's my mother tongue, so I don't have to try to learn it as a second language  I like Russian now that I've learned the Cyrillic alphabet, but I'm still having trouble with the seven different "S":s  They are so hard to pronounce, I'm glad we only have one "S" in Finnish 
> 
> "Water" is "vesi" in Finnish. These are all the different forms of the word (both singular and plural) and some examples to show what they mean.
> 
> vesi, vedet (water)
> ...


Yes, but... but...



> Tomb Comb
> Comb Home
> Home Roam
> Roam Dome
> Dome Some
> Some Dumb


soo hard!  :FRlol: 

By the way I'll be starting to learn russian nice to have some feedback from someone who is learning it. Is there a lot of similarities between russian and finnish?

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## Niamh

Annamariah, that looks really difficult.
I thought i'd show you something to do with my native language Gaeilge.
This is the many ways to say "i, you" etc




> Me tu Se si muid/sinn siad sibh
> *ag* agam agat aige aici againn agaibh acu
> *ar* orm ort air uirthi orainn oraibh orthu
> *as* asam asat as aisti asainn asaibh astu
> *chun,
> chuig* chugam chugat chuige chuici chugainn chugaibh chucu
> *de* díom díot de di dínn díbh díobh
> *do* domh duit dó di dúinn daoibh dóibh
> *faoi* fúm fút faoi fúithi fúinn fúibh fúthu
> ...


Me can also be mise.
Is Mise Niamh (i am Niamh)
Niamh is Anim Domh (my name is Niamh)
Bhi ocras orm (I am hungry)
Ta Si go dti on Siopadoireachta (shes going to the shop)
Is maith libh milseog (they like sweets)

----------


## Etienne

I have this question about gaelic. Does everyone in Ireland learns it? Schooling is in english, right? And do you also learn gaelic at school? Does people at home speak gaelic or just some of them?

----------


## Annamariah

> Yes, but... but...
> 
> _Tomb Comb
> Comb Home
> Home Roam
> Roam Dome
> Dome Some
> Some Dumb_ 
> 
> ...


Okay, in Finnish:
saari - sääri (island - leg)
savi - saavi (clay - bucket/tub)
tuli - tuuli - tyyli (fire - wind - style)
sata - setä - sitä - sota (hundred - uncle - it - war)
kuka - kukka - suka - sukka - tukka - nukka - rukka - hukka (who - flower - comb - sock - hair -fluff - poor someone - lost/wolf)

... or just try to say "yksikseskös yskiskelet yksiössäsi" (are you coughing all alone in your studio apartment?) So hard!  :FRlol: 

About Russian: I think it isn't as difficult as I thought it to be. There are some similarities between Finnish and Russian, for example both use inflections, but in Russian there are much less and more simple inflections than in Finnish. Russian words have genders that affect adjectives, verbs and inflections, but those rules are quite easy to learn and they don't have much exceptions. After you learn to read and write the Cyrillic alphabet, it isn't so hard any more  :Smile:  Okay, there are the notorious seven "S":s... С (s), З (z), Ш (), Ж (), Щ (t), Ч (t) and Ц (ts), but they are not impossible to learn. Though I must admit that at first I got a sore throat whenever I spoke Russian, because some sounds were just so difficult  :FRlol:

----------


## Niamh

> I have this question about gaelic. Does everyone in Ireland learns it? Schooling is in english, right? And do you also learn gaelic at school? Does people at home speak gaelic or just some of them?


Everyone learns it from the moment they enter school. Some families speak it at home, and some schools you are thought all your education through irish. There are still parts of Ireland that Irish is the primary language. We call those areas the Gaeltacht. Most people forget most of the language after they leave school because they dont use it on a daily bases. But it is a beautiful language to learn. :Smile:  I'm very rusty and would love to go back to Irish classes to improve.

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## Annamariah

> Everyone learns it from the moment they enter school. Some families speak it at home, and some schools you are thought all your education through irish. There are still parts of Ireland that Irish is the primary language. We call those areas the Gaeltacht. Most people forget most of the language after they leave school because they dont use it on a daily bases. But it is a beautiful language to learn. I'm very rusty and would love to go back to Irish classes to improve.


Gaelic sounds interesting and difficult  :Biggrin:  Are there many books written in or translated to Gaelic, so would reading be an easy way to prevent forgetting the language? I use English on a daily basis so I'm not going to forget it that easily and I study Russian 11 hours a week, so it's not a problem either, but I haven't had any Swedish lessons for over a year now so I'm already starting to forget it. I try to read a book in Swedish every now and then so that I won't forget it totally, and it really helps  :Smile:  Once I open the book I can understand all the words that I would never have remembered if someone just asked me "What is XXX in Swedish?". Just last night I started "Den hemlighetsfulla trädgården", "The Secret Garden" by F. H. Burnett.

----------


## Niamh

Yhere are plenty of books in the Irish language. You can get Harry potter and the Philosophers Stone As Gaeilge. And a lot of poetry. 
Here is a poem by Brendan Behan that was originally written in Irish. Heres the Irish and the English translation

Blas sméara dubh'
tréis báisteach
ar bharr an tsléibhe.

I dtost an phriosuin
feadail fhuar na treanach.
Cogar gáire beirt leannán
don aonarán.

The blackberries' taste
after rainfall
on the hilltop.

In the silence of the prison
the train's cold whistle.
The whisper of laughing lovers
to the lonely.
http://www.poetsgraves.co.uk/forum/v...hp?f=27&t=5294

Edit*
Since its now after midnight can i just wish you all the following;
Nollaig mhaith chugat agus athbhliain faoi mhaise duit! :Biggrin:

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## Nossa

I feel an urge to tell you about MY native language.. :FRlol: ..it's just gonna look REALLY strang here.. :FRlol:

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## muhsin

> I feel an urge to tell you about MY native language....it's just gonna look REALLY strang here..


Isn't it Arabic, Nossa? How is it???

----------


## aabbcc

Pretty much every language is bound to have some of its odds.
I could write a bunch of examples similar to ones brought up earlier for English or Finnish some of my native languages (the one coming on my mind now is what we used to joke with as children back when I lived in Croatia - _gore gore gore gore_ means "worse hills are burning up there  :Biggrin: , because "gore" can me up, then "gore" can be plural of "gora" which means hill, then "gore" can be 3rd person plural of the verb "gorjeti" which means "to burn", and "gore" can be comparative of "loše", which means "bad"...), and so could pretty much any person on here write about theirs, so we could all nicely stare at it, fascinated, and flatter to ourselves how smart we are for speaking such complicated languages.

The issue of hard/easy is relative to the point in which it is pointless to discuss it, and I cannot take seriously anyone who claims certain language to be the hardest/easiest around (even if they spoke all the languages there are, there would still be a lot of discussion left over what "hard" and "easy" means in which of the aspects of the language), nor I ever understood the need to boast with one's native language - a little thing you had no effect on, it was not your choice to be born into the language and culture you were - and its odds, for babies of all over the world master their native tongues well, and start to speak at approximately same time. I suppose that you simply cannot claim any language to be a priori harder than any other; besides, hard things in one aspect of the language (e.g. morphology, or extremely complex phonology, very extended vocabulary, hell of a syntax, you name it) are usually 'annihilated' by easy things in another aspect of the language (e.g. phonetic script, or not very large vocabulary, or significant lack of irregularities in some aspects). I have met linguists who, using that argument, suggest that all natural languages would 'weight' around the same on the scale of their difficulty, due to this effect. I cannot say anything worthwhile about that because I am not a linguist, but... that view of things would make much more sense to me than an attempt of putting all existing languages in the order according to how difficult they are in absolute sense.

So the same goes for English, pretty much. I believe I have already given my response somewhere earlier in this thread (English was, indeed, to me the easiest foreign language to master - but at times I wonder whether I should even consider it _foreign_ given how early I came in contact with it), but even despite my personal experiences, I _cannot_ allow myself to simply detach 'my' English experience from the specific context (when I learnt it, which languages I spoke previously, what kind of exposure did I have, etc) and just 'transcend' it on general level, by saying that, thus, English is bound to be extremely easy language in absolute and no discussion about that. That would be equal to transcending anything I am bound to view subjectively onto the would-be objective level, and that would be utter stupidity and bias (not to mention discrimination).

Also, do not be taken into that "Italian is easy, Russian is hard"-alike stupidity. Some languages, to speakers of some other languages, tend to be rather easy at the beginning. Of course that when it is about _ciao, come stai?_ or about _mia sorella si chiama Antonia_, Italian is bound to seem beautifully easy; however, when one reaches subjuncitve of the pluperfect, and all that nicely wrapped with _concordanza dei tempi_ and infinite dialects which often natives do not get, re-think that "Italian is easy" statement. The opposite goes for Russian, which happens to be notorious amongst the speakers of English due to its "hard start"; however, once you figure there are like 3 tenses, no subjunctive and such complications, that despite Russia being a huge country, Russian language has got a continuum far greater than the one of Italian, whcih leads to significant lack of dialects... Then Russian does not seem that unbelieveably hard any more. Just as Italian or Spanish or French or your typical "easy language" can get incredibly complex at higher levels of studying. So, however you turn it, we end up on the same point I made above - easier aspects usually annihilate with the hard ones, but you cannot, absolutely cannot, claim a language to be "easy" or "hard" _in absolute_. (I mean, you can, of course, but nobody who knows anything of languages will take you seriously.  :Biggrin: )

And Merry Christmas to all.  :Smile:

----------


## Annamariah

> Pretty much every language is bound to have some of its odds.
> I could write a bunch of examples similar to ones brought up earlier for English or Finnish some of my native languages (the one coming on my mind now is what we used to joke with as children back when I lived in Croatia - _gore gore gore gore_ means "worse hills are burning up there , because "gore" can me up, then "gore" can be plural of "gora" which means hill, then "gore" can be 3rd person plural of the verb "gorjeti" which means "to burn", and "gore" can be comparative of "loe", which means "bad"...), and so could pretty much any person on here write about theirs, so we could all nicely stare at it, fascinated, and flatter to ourselves how smart we are for speaking such complicated languages.
> 
> (...)
> 
> And Merry Christmas to all.


That is very true  :Smile:  I think pretty much any language is both hard and difficult and deciding which is the hardest or easiest one to learn isn't possible. One can only say which one was easiest or hardest to oneself. Maybe I would have found English more difficult if I didn't hear as much of it as I do. (As I've said before, almost all the tv-shows and movies are spoken in English here and we just read the Finnish subtitles, and most of the music is sung in English, too.)

And Merry Christmas to you, too, and to everyone else as well  :Smile:

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## Etienne

Haha... the everlasting everything-is-equal-just-different bandwagon!

----------


## aabbcc

> Haha... the everlasting everything-is-equal-just-different bandwagon!


... is what we are stuck with, for we do not have enough knowledge to make statements that would concern the problem _in absolute_. 
A lot of us here may be polyglots, but none of us can speak each and every single language to make absolute claims. What we can is simply speak out of personal experience, and not be arrogant enough to transcend that personal experience into absolute claim.

I am not being "politically correct", Etienne, nor am I promoting an artificial equality. I just do not know enough to make a statement "English is a hard language" (which would in my formulation more likely be "English is an easy language"), despite speaking English relatively decently (have mercy here, it is my third or fourth language after all, not my native one), and despite having studied various topics of linguistics in school in the past four years which supposedly provided me with some at least rudimentary knowledge on how language functions. It is simply a claim you cannot make.

You can argue that English _morphology_ is easy (and use its predominately analytic features as an argument), you can argue that its _syntax_ is complex (and connect that with other features of English which make it be less free than in many other languages), you can argue that its _vocabulary_ offers a potential discount for speakers of Romance languages (because most of it is Latin-based, via French), and thus you can dissect the language and study its various parts; but you can hardly, ever, in absolute make a claim "English is a hard language". The same, for that reasons, goes for pretty much any natural language.
That was my point, not political correctness of any kind.

----------


## amanda_isabel

English comes easy for me since it is my first language. I think any language can come easy for you as a second language if it is practiced enough and if you're willing to learn. But lots of people say English is the trickiest because "there are as many exemptions as there are rules" in grammar and spelling and everything. 

English may also come easier, i believe, if you happen to be proficient in one or more of the languages that a lot of English is deprived from, such as Greek, Latin, etcetera.

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## Etienne

> ... is what we are stuck with, for we do not have enough knowledge to make statements that would concern the problem _in absolute_. 
> A lot of us here may be polyglots, but none of us can speak each and every single language to make absolute claims. What we can is simply speak out of personal experience, and not be arrogant enough to transcend that personal experience into absolute claim.


Yes, yes, in that we completely agree, but I'm not basing myself to only my own testimony (which would be a rather weak one) but of others from all around the world, be it Israelis, Dutch, Germans, South Americans and Spaniards, etc.




> I am not being "politically correct", Etienne, nor am I promoting an artificial equality. I just do not know enough to make a statement "English is a hard language" (which would in my formulation more likely be "English is an easy language"), despite speaking English relatively decently (have mercy here, it is my third or fourth language after all, not my native one), and despite having studied various topics of linguistics in school in the past four years which supposedly provided me with some at least rudimentary knowledge on how language functions. It is simply a claim you cannot make.


Yes, we agree then.




> You can argue that English _morphology_ is easy (and use its predominately analytic features as an argument), you can argue that its _syntax_ is complex (and connect that with other features of English which make it be less free than in many other languages), you can argue that its _vocabulary_ offers a potential discount for speakers of Romance languages (because most of it is Latin-based, via French), and thus you can dissect the language and study its various parts; but you can hardly, ever, in absolute make a claim "English is a hard language". The same, for that reasons, goes for pretty much any natural language.
> That was my point, not political correctness of any kind.


And still we agree!  :Biggrin:

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## Dorian Gray

English = easiest language ever.

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## Etienne

> English = easi*er* language ever.


Oh! The irony!

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## Dorian Gray

haha. That is funny. Evil typo.

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## Nossa

> Isn't it Arabic, Nossa? How is it???


Yup it's Arabic  :Biggrin:  
And for starters, here's your nickname in Arabic محسن  :Biggrin:

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## blazeofglory

English is indeed very difficult and not a scientific language. Despite it is used massively and now growingly internationally it is not a developed and easy language.

I am a Nepali and am of course compelled to learn to come across larger audiences across the world. Or else I do not like it.

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## Goodfella

> English = easiest language ever.


And how...??? :Crash:

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## Etienne

> English is indeed very difficult and not a scientific language. Despite it is used massively and now growingly internationally it is not a developed and easy language.


What is that? Not a scientific language? What do you mean by that, what is a scientific language? Logical language? And how is english "not a developped language"?

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## muhsin

> Yup it's Arabic  
> And for starters, here's your nickname in Arabic محسن


Ahhh... thats indeed nice Nossa. :Thumbs Up:

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## Dorian Gray

> And how...???


Feeling a bit violent, are we?

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## muhsin

> Feeling a bit violent, are we?


Ahh...see nothing like that Gray. Common...and don't think negetively. :Idea:

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## Dorian Gray

I think I'll keep Goodfella away from my laptop just in case.  :Wink:

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## muhsin

Cool Gray!

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## Goodfella

> Feeling a bit violent, are we?


Think we aren't, right? And thanks to Muhsin.

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## Istanbul

I agree sooo much with Peter, the only way to learn a language well is to use the language, I know this by experience, it doesn't matter how well you study it, as long as you won't be able to bring it into practice you will never master the language.

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## muhsin

> I agree sooo much with Peter, the only way to learn a language well is to use the language, I know this by experience, it doesn't matter how well you study it, as long as you won't be able to bring it into practice you will never master the language.


Correct!

Welcome aboard.

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## mmanuelap

> I agree sooo much with Peter, the only way to learn a language well is to use the language, I know this by experience, it doesn't matter how well you study it, as long as you won't be able to bring it into practice you will never master the language.


Exactly  :Smile:

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## blazeofglory

English is really a very difficult language and of course it is very unscientific.

There is no good grammar in English and it is not not a flexible language. English is spread just because of the warriors or through its imperialistic domain. 

But now after reading and writing much through this medium I started loving this language. Now it can not go unloved.

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## blazeofglory

> I agree sooo much with Peter, the only way to learn a language well is to use the language, I know this by experience, it doesn't matter how well you study it, as long as you won't be able to bring it into practice you will never master the language.


I agree with you hundred percent and indeed there are not even nuances of doubts in your expressions.

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## blazeofglory

> English is a very easy language to learn I think. I thought German, French and Spanish was more difficult. 
> 
> (I'm a student English teacher)


No, it is one of the most difficult languages to learn in the world.

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## Etienne

> No, it is one of the most difficult languages to learn in the world.


And how many languages do you know?

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## blazeofglory

> And how many languages do you know?


I know three languages.

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## Etienne

> I know three languages.


Then obviously you are well placed to say that English is the most difficult language in the world? And my bet is that beside English the two languages are Nepali and Hindi, which are very similar? One way or another, that doesn't make a very big sample.

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## thegreenthing

I can speak both German and Swedish fluently and I think my English is quite so too, even though it isn't my native language like the other two. And I have a lot more trouble with spanish. Then again there are people I know who can't understand the simplest things in english but who at the same time are far better at, for an example, spanish than me. So I guess that it's just Extremely individual, like everything else

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## muhsin

> I can speak both German and Swedish fluently and I think my English is quite so too, even though it isn't my native language like the other two. And I have a lot more trouble with spanish. Then again there are people I know who can't understand the simplest things in english but who at the same time are far better at, for an example, spanish than me. So I guess that it's just Extremely individual, like everything else


Superb! You can speak many languages like this. Wish I could do the same. But don't know why; language is never fortee.

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## EdwardJ

English is BY FAR the silliest, easiest european language. Only emotional americans would think otherwise. I mean: no gender, no word agreement, no declension, arguably no grammar!

Let´s drop the PC talk already.  :Smile:

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## EdwardJ

> The irregular verbs in English are few actually. Spanish has a ridiculous amount. 
> 
> Anyway, English, except for spelling and pronunciation, is ridiculously easy (compared to the languages of Europe), because the grammar is simplified and generally regular beyond about a couple hundred instances (that's way better than the couple thousand instances of Spanish and French). But it's also really big, so hard to fully grip, but no one fully grips all of English.


I am in full agreement with this user. No wonder he was banned. Lol.

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## Rakthor

> The irregular verbs in English are few actually. Spanish has a ridiculous amount. 
> 
> Anyway, English, except for spelling and pronunciation, is ridiculously easy (compared to the languages of Europe), because the grammar is simplified and generally regular beyond about a couple hundred instances (that's way better than the couple thousand instances of Spanish and French). But it's also really big, so hard to fully grip, but no one fully grips all of English.


I disagree. From what I've learned, Spanish is much easier than English to learn. I'd say it's about the same difficulty as the other European languages, such as French (which is a horribly illogical and overcomplicated, yet charming language) and German (which I plan to learn.

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## EdwardJ

> I disagree. From what I've learned,


You probably have learned VERY little. Lol. 




> Spanish is much easier than English to learn.


Care to provide any rational reason to back up this statement?





> I'd say it's about the same difficulty as the other European languages, such as French (which is a horribly illogical and overcomplicated, yet charming language) and German (which I plan to learn.


You say that french is "overcomplicated", but yet you claim it is as difficult to learn as english? So I take it that you consider english to be "overcomplicated" as well?

Spanish is infinitely more complicated than english for a number of reasons:

*Verbs:seven indicative tenses (there are about 50 forms per verb)
*Determiners: they have to agree with what they refer to
*Wider range of pronouns

To put it bluntly: spanish has a grammar, english almost doesn't. Lol. I could cite many other reasons why spanish is harder than english. The only aspect of english that could be considerate tricky is the pronunciation.


Many people (mostly americans) have a tendency to perceive spanish as "easy" because they hear it spoken by, say, "unsophisticated", unaducated people (generally mexicans or other -poor- latin americans). I have met a number of americans who hold this view. But when I put their spanish to test, they usually don't pass.  :Wink: 

Unfortunately this view has nothing to do with reality. It is nothing but an irrational prejudice. Spanish is not easy at all. 

I am not a native spanish speaker, just for the record.

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## Rakthor

> You probably have learned VERY little.


That's quite an assumption to be making. True, I only have one source of information, but I consider it quite reliable. A professor of language studies himself told me that in his opinion, Spanish was a rather easy language. He claimed that the syntax, vocabulary and orthography is quite simple if you already know a romance language. I have no reason not to believe him. 




> Many people (mostly americans) have a tendency to perceive spanish as "easy" because they hear it spoken by, say, "unsophisticated", unaducated people (generally mexicans or other -poor- latin americans). I have met a number of americans who hold this view. But when I put their spanish to test, they usually don't pass.


Are you calling me a racist and elitist because I think Spanish is easy? That's completely ridiculous. What I'm hearing is that I somehow think Spanish is a lesser language because I relate it to the "unsophisticated" as you call them. You should know that I have nothing but respect for Spanish. It's a wonderful language. I just think that is uncomplicated. And I'll have you know, my mother was from Argentina. I just never spoke Spanish growing up. And what's this "mostly Americans" thing. As I recall, you mentioned something about "irrational prejudice". You have NO RIGHT to talk about prejudice if you're talking about any people like they're idiots on the whole. 




> Unfortunately this view has nothing to do with reality. It is nothing but an irrational prejudice. Spanish is not easy at all.


Irrational prejudice?! Nothing to do with reality?! Sir, you are completely out of line. Just because I find Spanish easy doesn't mean I'm out of touch with reality. It's a completely subjective topic. You need to cool your jets and think about what the hell you're saying. Damn, this makes me mad.

----------


## EdwardJ

> That's quite an assumption to be making.


There is no assumption made on my part. I said that you _probably_ have learned very little. There is a difference between probability and certainty, as I am sure you know.  :Smile: 




> True, I only have one source of information, but I consider it quite reliable. A professor of language studies himself told me that in his opinion, Spanish was a rather easy language.


Well, I teach languages myself also. He finds it easy compared to what? 
I'd say spanish might be "easy" compared to, say, finnish or hungarian.
Compared to english, every european language is hard, for english is the simplest of all major european languages.





> He claimed that the syntax, vocabulary and orthography is quite simple if you already know a romance language. I have no reason not to believe him.


Sure, knowing another romance language helps to pick up spanish. But again, spanish syntax, vocabulary and orthography are certainly not simpler than english syntax, vocabulary and orthography.






> Are you calling me a racist and elitist because I think Spanish is easy? That's completely ridiculous.


What does any of this have to do with race? Don't let your own prejudices fall off your mouth.






> What I'm hearing is that I somehow think Spanish is a lesser language because I relate it to the "unsophisticated" as you call them.


Some people do make this association. I did not say you were one of them.




> You should know that I have nothing but respect for Spanish. It's a wonderful language. I just think that is uncomplicated.


Based on what do you think that it is "uncomplicated"? And again, compared to what?




> And I'll have you know, my mother was from Argentina. I just never spoke Spanish growing up. And what's this "mostly Americans" thing.




I said that its "mostly americans" that think like that because americans have contact, mostly, with poor spanish-speaking people (mostly mexicans) inside the USA. In europe people have a rather different view of spanish-speaking people because they are not (usually) poor as most mexican immigrants are.
I am not claiming that every american thinks in such way, obviously.




> As I recall, you mentioned something about "irrational prejudice". You have NO RIGHT to talk about prejudice if you're talking about any people like they're idiots on the whole.


Nowhere have I called anyone an idiot, nor have I insulted any group "on the whole".







> Irrational prejudice?! Nothing to do with reality?! Sir, you are completely out of line. Just because I find Spanish easy doesn't mean I'm out of touch with reality. It's a completely subjective topic.


No, son, this is where you got it wrong. It is not completely subjective. The only part of language learning that might be subjective (i.e., that depends on people's head) is the pronunciation. Some brains/mouths are better suited than others to pronounce certain sounds. Grammar is not subjective. The reasons that I listed in my previous post (as to why spanish is more complicated than english) are not subjective. Read my previous post more thoroughly, and address these points individually if you will.




> You need to cool your jets and think about what the hell you're saying.


Son, I already am just about the coolest guy you will find anywhere.  :Biggrin:  If anyone needs to cool off here it is you.




> Damn, this makes me mad.


Yes, we can see that.  :Smile:  Cool your jets.  :Wink:

----------


## Brasil

I from Brazil and I speak portuguese (native language), italian, english, spanish and french. Also, I've study just a few senteces in german, russian, arabic (or arabian?), chinese mandarin and japanese.
In fact, English is very, very easy.
I think English is the easiest language to everyone learn. However, I have some difficulties.

*1- Phonetic:* It's difficult to pronunciate the contrast in some words, like: 
a) three, think, something... (my difficulty is in "th" sound)
b) THOUGH/THOUGHT/THROUGH
c) piece/peace
d) whole/hole

*2- Ortography:* The way some words are written doesn't make any sense for me. I don't undestand why exist the double ff, double tt, double LL, etc... Is it really necessary? How would sound the word "difficult" if it was written "dificult" (for example)?  :Yawnb:  
And what about the i/y? Sometimes it sounds the same phonetic!

*3- Grammar:* The prepositions are a very hard subject in all languages I speak. But in english, for example, I have problems to know when and how I must use: 
to/for; 
that/who/which; 
from/of.

*I have a curiosity:*
How Portuguese language sounds to a foreign? What Portuguese language seems (looks like) to you? 
Does Portuguese seems like spanish, italian, arabian, russian...? Or no one?
Please tell me.

----------


## PeterL

> *I have a curiosity:*
> How Portuguese language sounds to a foreign? What Portuguese language seems (looks like) to you? 
> Does Portuguese seems like spanish, italian, arabian, russian...? Or no one?
> Please tell me.


I am not all that familiar with either version of Portuguese, but Brazilian sounds very much like Spanish. The Portuguese of Portugal does not sound like Spanish, nor does it sound much like any other language. There have been times when I thought I was hearing French or Italian, but it was Portuguese, and other times it didn't sound like any language I know anything of.

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## naomi moon

I find that English is a very interesting language and its sweetness makes it easy to learn it.I speak Arabic which is my mother tongue, French as well, German which I hate but obliged to learn it for school :FRlol:  

I do study English at the U. I simply love it. I am not gonna pretend that it is the Easiest language that one can learn. But it's not that hard. Actually all what one needs is constant practice and a lot of reading in order to enlarge his vocabulary and to better his acquisition of the language.

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## EdwardJ

> I am not all that familiar with either version of Portuguese, but Brazilian sounds very much like Spanish. The Portuguese of Portugal does not sound like Spanish, nor does it sound much like any other language. There have been times when I thought I was hearing French or Italian, but it was Portuguese, and other times it didn't sound like any language I know anything of.


Where have you heard "brazilian" portuguese spoken? 
It doesn't sound anything like spanish to me! 

"Brazilian" portuguese is way more pleasant to the ear than "portuguese" portuguese IMO.  :Smile:

----------


## PeterL

> Where have you heard "brazilian" portuguese spoken? 
> It doesn't sound anything like spanish to me! 
> 
> "Brazilian" portuguese is way more pleasant to the ear than "portuguese" portuguese IMO.


I have been acqainted with a few Brazilians, and I agree that it is more pleasant to the ear than Spanish.

----------


## Brasil

short documentary about the different accents of the english language 
(4 minutes):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jovfB6PKaR8

comic frenchman trying to improve his english pronunciation (2 min):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0wV7NqZk3sk

Compare a similar reportage in spanish and in portuguese:

Tve (Spain) news about 9/11 (2 min):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AuK5cq4658

Globo (Brazil) news about 9/11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uz5DQGoOy1o

----------


## manolia

> *I have a curiosity:*
> How Portuguese language sounds to a foreign? What Portuguese language seems (looks like) to you? 
> Does Portuguese seems like spanish, italian, arabian, russian...? Or no one?
> Please tell me.


Hehe i had some brazilian clients a while ago. Portuguese is a melodic language..it is nice to hear..it gives me a pleasant feeling (like french  :Smile:  ). It doesn't resemble any of the languages you listed  :Wink:

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## Brasil

Thanks for all.

----------


## Brasil

ENGLISH----- PORTUGUESE

Present----- Presente 
I love------- eu amo
you love----- tu amas 
he loves----- ele ama
we love----- nós amamos
you all love--- vós amais
they love ----- eles amam

Past--------- Pretérito
I loved------- eu amei
you loved----- tu amaste
he loved----- ele amou
we loved----- nós amamos
you all loved--- vós amastes
they loved----- eles amaram

Future--------- Futuro
I will love------- eu amarei
you will love----- tu amarás
he will love----- ele amará
we will love----- nós amaremos
you all will love--- vós amareis
they will love----- eles amarão

So, I think English conjugation is very simple, almost no variation.
Now, look at the red letters in portuguese conjugation. That kind of variation is complex.
I've taken Portuguese grammar as example. The same I say about Portuguese is also for any neo-latin language and other languages.

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## muhsin

Brasil,

You left me astounded. How these expression are spoken? I tried to pronunce them but...

Thats language; diffrent people different languages.

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## EdwardJ

> ENGLISH----- PORTUGUESE
> 
> Present----- Presente 
> I love------- eu amo
> you love----- tu amas 
> he loves----- ele ama
> we love----- nós amamos
> you all love--- vós amais
> they love ----- eles amam
> ...


Yes, that is the point I was trying to make earlier.  :Wink:

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## JBI

I'm sorry, but that is a terrible example Brazil. the words function the same way, your endings are just at the end of the word. That is not more difficult, because it is simpler to remember that rule.

Try hebrew though, that has 26 binyanim of verb types. That has far more endings, especially since it is also inflected to time, speaker, and gender. Either way, these grammar rules aren't the hardest part. it is vocabulary consistency which is the difficult, and English has plenty of homonyms and similar sounding accents that it can jar even native speakers.

That being said, I am in no way saying you are wrong about Portuguese being harder, I am just saying that is a terrible example.

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## EdwardJ

> I'm sorry, but that is a terrible example Brazil. the words function the same way, your endings are just at the end of the word. That is not more difficult, because it is simpler to remember that rule.


Lol, sure, just try to remember 50+ variations per verb, it will make your head spin. English speakers should not be discouraged on account of this, though. If you ask a native for ALL of these conjugations, chances are he will not know. You don't need to turn into Luís de Camões or Cervantes to be able to communicate fluently.  :Wink: 




> Try hebrew though, that has 26 binyanim of verb types. That has far more endings, especially since it is also inflected to time, speaker, and gender.


Hebrew is a semitic language. That is a different arena altogether. Portuguese and english are indo-european languages.




> Either way, these grammar rules aren't the hardest part.


This is true. _THESE_ grammar rules are not the hardest part... there are other grammar rules that make it even more difficult, lol. 




> it is vocabulary consistency which is the difficult,


Uh, no... "vocabulary consistency" is actually just the first part of learning a language. The last part would be to master the grammar. It may take years to master the grammar -- if you ever manage to master it, that is. Some people never do. 






> and English has plenty of homonyms and similar sounding accents that it can jar even native speakers.


This, although true, is by no means a particularity of the english language! Just about EVERY language "has plenty of homonyms and similar sounding accents that it can jar even native speakers." It seems like english speakers like very much to drop this line simply because they can't find anything else that makes their language appear fancy.  :Wink: 




> That being said, I am in no way saying you are wrong about Portuguese being harder, I am just saying that is a terrible example.


It is a terrible example to prove what? That there are harder languages than english? If this is the point addressed, then portuguese is not "a terrible example", at all.

Brasil is correct in his assertions.

----------


## Brasil

The debate about "Portuguese and English languages" is very deep!!!!
(The debate about languages begins in the post #44 of the thread Brazilian Literature)

*Just an example* (the complete version is in "Brazilian Literature" thread):

We have in Portuguese the verb that means "to get a cold". It is gripar. See the conjugation at the Present:
Eu gripo, Tu gripas, Ele gripa, Nós gripamos, etc...
(=I get a cold, you get a cold, he get a cold, we get a cold...)

The word gripado is the past participle of the verb gripar.
The word gripar is the infinitive form.

If you are a female you have to say: Eu estou gripada
If you are a male you have to say: Eu estou gripado

English does not have declinations by male/female and singular/plural.
English article "a" in Portuguese can assume four forms: um, uma, uns, umas.
English article "the" in Portuguese can assume four forms: o, a, os, as.

That is why I think English is simple and easy. In English you don't have to conjugate verbs and there is (almost) no declination.

But I apreciate all languages, they are all beatiful for me. I love English, Arabic and all romance languages.

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## Pyrrho

I love English but I do not really think that it is easy to learn. The first stages are attained pretty fast. But I do think that later on it gets more and more difficult. Not the understanding part but the writing...

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## EdwardJ

> I love English but I do not really think that it is easy to learn.


To attain fluency in _any language_ is not an easy task. I don't think it is easy to learn english. But compared to any other major european language, english is easy.




> The first stages are attained pretty fast. But I do think that later on it gets more and more difficult. Not the understanding part but the writing...


That is exactly how it goes... first you acquire a vague understanding of the words -- you associate words to objects and/or ideas -- then you begin to vaguely understand a text. But _to write_ is a bit more difficult, you are right. That is part of learning the grammar already. That may take years. That is the last part.

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## muhsin

> I love English but I do not really think that it is easy to learn. The first stages are attained pretty fast. But I do think that later on it gets more and more difficult. Not the understanding part but the writing...


*?*
I don't quite understand that very well. Wish I haven't sound obtuse, eh?

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## blazeofglory

Learning a new language is not that difficult only if you are in that language community. But being distant from the community and imagine when one becomes compelled to learn a live language depending upon signs or prints, is not it a tedious thing to do. That is how I learn it. 

I do not speak a single word in English in my community. I simply read it in print, watch TV programs, listen to songs in English, and these are the sources of my knowledge in English. 

What about yours?

----------


## Pyrrho

That is just my very subjective view. I study English literature and while at school learning English was always very easy for me I have some problems to write on a more academic level. It' s just that I read and read and read but, nonetheless, it still does not work out the way I would wish it to. And many of my fellow students have the same problem. Like EdwardJ said: advanced grammar...hm... and style. Not so easy to obtain.

----------


## Erichtho

> I do not speak a single word in English in my community. I simply read it in print, watch TV programs, listen to songs in English, and these are the sources of my knowledge in English. 
> 
> What about yours?


I mainly use English in the internet; sometimes I search on English websites when I couldn't get enough info on German websites; I read English online newspapers or this forum and occasionally a novel in English, and I also have a friend to whom I write in English. 

Fact is, I've never uttered a word of it ever since I've left my English class in school, and even back then the focus was far more on reading/writing than on listening and speaking. Thus, it's quite inaccurate to say that I can _speak_ it, since I never had an actual opportunity to do so. 

Concerning the difficulty: besides my native language German I've studied two foreign languages in school, English and Russian, and I can easily tell you that Russian has caused me a lot more troubles than English, but that's very likely only because English and German are far more related than Russian and German, the grammar of English comes more _natural_ and it's easier to build the vocabulary... I certainly do not believe that English is an easier language per se.

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## hannah_arendt

> That is just my very subjective view. I study English literature and while at school learning English was always very easy for me I have some problems to write on a more academic level. It' s just that I read and read and read but, nonetheless, it still does not work out the way I would wish it to. And many of my fellow students have the same problem. Like EdwardJ said: advanced grammar...hm... and style. Not so easy to obtain.


I have never had any prolbems with English but at academic level I remember feeling the need of lack of vocabulary.

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## JBI

Ah an old post. Still. Indo-European languages are easy in general. I will stand by that.

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## cafolini

Excuse me, important news: a passive wifi device has been developed to see through walls. This will help police and people determine de actual positions of criminals. Still working on sensitivity issues like, for example, if the criminals don't move, they cannot be detected. But a higher sensitivity is coming soon where the device will detect breathing.

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## hannah_arendt

> Ah an old post. Still. Indo-European languages are easy in general. I will stand by that.


What is the most difficult language according to you?

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## lichtrausch

I don't know if this has already been said, but the greatest determinant of the difficulty of other languages is your native language. If your native language is Cantonese, you will find Mandarin relatively easy to learn. If your native language is Kurdish, you will find Persian relatively easy to learn. And so on.

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## kiki1982

Yes, probably if you know your own language and its rules and things, and it's quite an elaborate one, then you'll probably find English a breeze. If you're English and you are taught the few rules there are (which is already not a given these days apparently), you'll probably find any other language very difficult.

That said, I think English is often only mistaken for being easy. The trap to me is in the surface. The surface is very easy, learners can express themselves adequately and rightly fairly quickly and so they think they know 'English'. Not so in French or German (that's the ones I know). Apart from the tenses and maybe when to use 'will' and 'going to' for the future, there is not much to remember. Everything comes fairly naturally. And no-one even seems to mind you are using the present perfect with 'yesterday'. Yesterday, I have gone to the shop. Do that in any other language and you'll drop down a level in the eyes of your audience...
But the deeper you go in English, the worse it gets. You've got remnants of inversion, you've got incredible amounts of phrasal verbs, you've got subjunctive, preposition at the end or not (it seems to be mainly a question of register), not to mention the vast amounts of vocab which will express exactly down to a tee what you actually want to say... And all these things they never teach, because there are no real rules for those.
And then if you know these things, for everything to sound absolutely natural, you'll just need feeling.

So you can have a situation where you can have a perfect conversation in a shop, read the newspaper, no problem and then you'll try and do something out of that level, and boom, you know nothing.

Hmm, maybe not difficult then, but treacherous.  :Biggrin:

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## hannah_arendt

> I don't know if this has already been said, but the greatest determinant of the difficulty of other languages is your native language. If your native language is Cantonese, you will find Mandarin relatively easy to learn. If your native language is Kurdish, you will find Persian relatively easy to learn. And so on.


I agree that it is very difficult to stop thinking in your native language. We learn much easier things that are similar to ones we already know.

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## hannah_arendt

> Yes, probably if you know your own language and its rules and things, and it's quite an elaborate one, then you'll probably find English a breeze. If you're English and you are taught the few rules there are (which is already not a given these days apparently), you'll probably find any other language very difficult.
> 
> That said, I think English is often only mistaken for being easy. The trap to me is in the surface. The surface is very easy, learners can express themselves adequately and rightly fairly quickly and so they think they know 'English'. Not so in French or German (that's the ones I know). Apart from the tenses and maybe when to use 'will' and 'going to' for the future, there is not much to remember. Everything comes fairly naturally. And no-one even seems to mind you are using the present perfect with 'yesterday'. Yesterday, I have gone to the shop. Do that in any other language and you'll drop down a level in the eyes of your audience...
> But the deeper you go in English, the worse it gets. You've got remnants of inversion, you've got incredible amounts of phrasal verbs, you've got subjunctive, preposition at the end or not (it seems to be mainly a question of register), not to mention the vast amounts of vocab which will express exactly down to a tee what you actually want to say... And all these things they never teach, because there are no real rules for those.
> And then if you know these things, for everything to sound absolutely natural, you'll just need feeling.
> 
> So you can have a situation where you can have a perfect conversation in a shop, read the newspaper, no problem and then you'll try and do something out of that level, and boom, you know nothing.
> 
> Hmm, maybe not difficult then, but treacherous.


I have already gone into subjunctive, unreal tenses and so on and I have to admit that despite the fact that such things don`t exist in Polish, it wasn`t such adifficult things I thought earlier. I am sure that I still will commit mistakes, maybe not so big ones but I`ll. 

But thanks to very funny, a little bit strange differences between constructions and forms, english is very interesting language.

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## Jackson Richardson

OK, English grammer is technically easier than many as it has less alterations of word endings.

But how do you work out the subtle differences between I walk, I am walking, I do walk, all versions of the present tense, which as far as I know will only be in one form in other languages?

And how do you know when the use the Latinate form or a word (altitude) and the Germanic (height)?

And the different nuances of beautiful, pretty, handsome and good looking?

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## Aylinn

> But how do you work out the subtle differences between I walk, I am walking, I do walk, all versions of the present tense, which as far as I know will only be in one form in other languages?


Such differences are always explained in English textbooks.  :Smile:

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## seaofmilktea

Background: half chinese half english, living in hk. My first languages are English and Cantonese, and I also know Mandarin. I've been learning Spanish for 6 years, French for 1.

I didn't realise till recently that people had such an issue with English pronunciation. I can't comment on learning English as I mainly picked it up from reading books, watching tv, and speaking to my parents. I was always ahead of my local chinese classmates so I didn't pay attention when my teachers taught grammar.
I must say though, that Chinese is terribly difficult.
Imagine not having an alphabet, having to memorise a few thousand complicated characters. (We learn traditional, not simplified.chinese) 
There are almost no clues as to how the word is pronounced.
Worse still, there are.two kinds of Chinese, formal and informal. Spoken Cantonese is significantly.different from written Chinese.
In the chinese language public exams, we.even have to do unseen comprehension test on ancient texts which make.no sense to modern readers whatsoever. You find chaucer hard? We have to read texts from more than 2000 years ago. And that's not even the literature paper, but just the compulsory chinese language paper. But at least the grammar is simple.
However, at the end of the day, I'm really glad that I have access to a wealth of Chinese literature.  :Smile: 


Btw, I've always wondered: how does English sound to foreign ears?

----------


## hannah_arendt

> Background: half chinese half english, living in hk. My first languages are English and Cantonese, and I also know Mandarin. I've been learning Spanish for 6 years, French for 1.
> 
> I didn't realise till recently that people had such an issue with English pronunciation. I can't comment on learning English as I mainly picked it up from reading books, watching tv, and speaking to my parents. I was always ahead of my local chinese classmates so I didn't pay attention when my teachers taught grammar.
> I must say though, that Chinese is terribly difficult.
> Imagine not having an alphabet, having to memorise a few thousand complicated characters. (We learn traditional, not simplified.chinese) 
> There are almost no clues as to how the word is pronounced.
> Worse still, there are.two kinds of Chinese, formal and informal. Spoken Cantonese is significantly.different from written Chinese.
> In the chinese language public exams, we.even have to do unseen comprehension test on ancient texts which make.no sense to modern readers whatsoever. You find chaucer hard? We have to read texts from more than 2000 years ago. And that's not even the literature paper, but just the compulsory chinese language paper. But at least the grammar is simple.
> However, at the end of the day, I'm really glad that I have access to a wealth of Chinese literature. 
> ...


Chinese and Japanese are for me impossible to learn :Smile:  I mean, by me. One of my husband`s friends studies Chinese in China what is for me completely astonishing. First of all the alphabeth is very difficult. I heard that Chinese doesn`t distinguish nouns, verbs and so on. Is it true?

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## kiki1982

Haha, pronunciation, that's a good one  :FRlol: .

I always say that if you want to pronounce English properly, you can't move your mouth at all. Being a Dutch speaker I do (I can imagine how difficult Germans find it). After about 13 years I have now mastered the shwa, and I feel I move my mouth differently, but still it's no good. Mind you, I can do it, if I put my mind to it, but it doesn't sound like me. I guess I'll have to read aloud a bit more, then it'll be alright (acquired a nice accent in French like that).

You can actually express many of the small nuances in English in other languages, but it's usually done with adverbs like really or something.
As to Latinate words, some are explained in text book, but only to a certain level. I mean altitude and height have a different meaning, but how can you explain to liberate and to free?

----------


## hannah_arendt

> Haha, pronunciation, that's a good one .
> 
> I always say that if you want to pronounce English properly, you can't move your mouth at all. Being a Dutch speaker I do (I can imagine how difficult Germans find it). After about 13 years I have now mastered the shwa, and I feel I move my mouth differently, but still it's no good. Mind you, I can do it, if I put my mind to it, but it doesn't sound like me. I guess I'll have to read aloud a bit more, then it'll be alright (acquired a nice accent in French like that).
> 
> You can actually express many of the small nuances in English in other languages, but it's usually done with adverbs like really or something.
> As to Latinate words, some are explained in text book, but only to a certain level. I mean altitude and height have a different meaning, but how can you explain to liberate and to free?


Sometimes it seems to me that I won`t be able to learn hearing accent. I can learn by heart the rules but it`s all :Smile:

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## papillondemai

I am a native Spanish speaker but I prefer English. English has more, what should I call them, "tools" to work with which help give freer rein to the imagination. I don't think English is difficult to learn but I learned it young. Any language can be difficult if you try to learn it when you are older and you didn't learn a second language when you were young. I studied French in college and didn't find it difficult perhaps because its structure is so similar to Spanish and there are so many cognitives in the three languages. I found the most difficult part of learning French to be understanding the run-on sound of the spoken language. If your native language has no cognitives with English and the grammatical structure is completely different then you will find English much more difficult. I noticed this when I tried to learn Japanese.

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## hannah_arendt

> I am a native Spanish speaker but I prefer English. English has more, what should I call them, "tools" to work with which help give freer rein to the imagination. I don't think English is difficult to learn but I learned it young. Any language can be difficult if you try to learn it when you are older and you didn't learn a second language when you were young. I studied French in college and didn't find it difficult perhaps because its structure is so similar to Spanish and there are so many cognitives in the three languages. I found the most difficult part of learning French to be understanding the run-on sound of the spoken language. If your native language has no cognitives with English and the grammatical structure is completely different then you will find English much more difficult. I noticed this when I tried to learn Japanese.


Despite English, I really love Spanish :Smile:  However few years ago I had a serious problem with subjuntivo. My native language is Polish and we don`t have such contruction. If yopu are interested, I can give you a link to my texts written in Spanish. I hope that I don`t make many mistakes.

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## papillondemai

Hannah:

Yes I'd like to read some of your Spanish work. I do not know anything about Polish except that it is a Slavic language. I have always thought of Slavic languages as being far removed from Spanish in regard to the elements necessary to learn it, i.e., grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation. Is there any similarity at all? How did you develop a love for Spanish? Were you a language major in college? I studied French primarily so I could read Rimbaud in French. Mistakes? I bet you write Spanish better than I do. Native Spanish speakers that grow up in the U.S. get most of the Spanish beat out of them unless they stay in a Spanish speaking community such as Miami. You can live in Miami now and never have to speak English.

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## hannah_arendt

> Hannah:
> 
> Yes I'd like to read some of your Spanish work. I do not know anything about Polish except that it is a Slavic language. I have always thought of Slavic languages as being far removed from Spanish in regard to the elements necessary to learn it, i.e., grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation. Is there any similarity at all? How did you develop a love for Spanish? Were you a language major in college? I studied French primarily so I could read Rimbaud in French. Mistakes? I bet you write Spanish better than I do. Native Spanish speakers that grow up in the U.S. get most of the Spanish beat out of them unless they stay in a Spanish speaking community such as Miami. You can live in Miami now and never have to speak English.


I am sending you link in a PM :Smile:  Slavic Languages are very remote from Spanish, French or English. We don`t have such construction as subjuntivo for example. There is only 1 verb meaning "to be". Conditional Clauses aren`t so complicated. However Polish has cases which is quite difficult. 

I learned French at school (well I didn`t have then English). Then, at secondary school, I had German (still without English). I graduated from Polish Philology and now I am studying english Philology. 

The issue of languages in USA is very interesting. In Poland you can only use Polish but there places inhabited by Germans, Lithuanians or Ucrainians.

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## seaofmilktea

Well sometimes words are specifically nouns or verbs etc, but sometimes the same word can be used as a noun or a.verb, especially in archaic chinese. It depends on context. Modern Chinese uses a lot of word compounds, for example 'butter' would be a two character compound: 'cow oil'. So the idea of a 'word' is a little different. I'm not a linguist so I don't know what the proper terms are used to describe the language!

We don't really have an alphabet. There is a Pinyin system for foreigners to know how to pronounce words, but actual written chinese has a unique way of writing each character, so unlike european languages, it is extremely difficult to guess how a word is pronounced by looking it. Most foreigners don't bother to learn how to read and write the language, which is perfectly understandable! Your husband's friend seems to be pretty amazing - even the Chinese find Chinese difficult. If he/she can learn Chinese, maybe I should try Russian?  :Biggrin:

----------


## hannah_arendt

> Well sometimes words are specifically nouns or verbs etc, but sometimes the same word can be used as a noun or a.verb, especially in archaic chinese. It depends on context. Modern Chinese uses a lot of word compounds, for example 'butter' would be a two character compound: 'cow oil'. So the idea of a 'word' is a little different. I'm not a linguist so I don't know what the proper terms are used to describe the language!
> 
> We don't really have an alphabet. There is a Pinyin system for foreigners to know how to pronounce words, but actual written chinese has a unique way of writing each character, so unlike european languages, it is extremely difficult to guess how a word is pronounced by looking it. Most foreigners don't bother to learn how to read and write the language, which is perfectly understandable! Your husband's friend seems to be pretty amazing - even the Chinese find Chinese difficult. If he/she can learn Chinese, maybe I should try Russian?



I have learnt Russian alphabeth :Smile:  It`s not so bad :Biggrin: 

I think that he can speak Chinese quite well. It is amazing the way Chinese use their language. I wouldn`t be able to learn it.

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## muhsin

Where do you put Hindu and Punjabi, the two languages I am "struggling" to learn as I live in the mid of their speakers?

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## hannah_arendt

> Where do you put Hindu and Punjabi, the two languages I am "struggling" to learn as I live in the mid of their speakers?


I wouldn`t be able to learn them. I think that they represent completely different point of view at many things. What do you think are the most difficult things in Hindu or Punjabi?

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## muhsin

Okay. For both, the pronunciation and the orthography. They sound and look very weird to me; lol.

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## Nacht-Jagen

English is an incredibly difficult language to learn. Being from Germany, I speak German, French, Swedish, and I know how to carry a very basic conversation in Greek. I'm currently learning Welsh, as well. When I moved to America, English was a hassle to understand. So many rules in the writing and speaking of it are not always consistent. It was very frustrating.

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## hannah_arendt

> English is an incredibly difficult language to learn. Being from Germany, I speak German, French, Swedish, and I know how to carry a very basic conversation in Greek. I'm currently learning Welsh, as well. When I moved to America, English was a hassle to understand. So many rules in the writing and speaking of it are not always consistent. It was very frustrating.


Do you think that German is easier than English? Cases were very difficult for me.And the place of the verb in the sentence. Now I coped with it but at the beginning it`s difficult. Unfortunately, Poles don`t want to learn German. Recently I have been travelled through Austria and I must admit that the ability of speaking German helped me a lot. 

What do you think about Welsh?

----------


## kiki1982

I found German easy to learn, but my native language is Dutch, so that's cheating. No, I think, on the surface, German looks difficult with all its rules, but as soon as you know a few, it's pretty simple: they always apply. There are only a few places the conjugated verb can be in: after the subject if the tense is not compound (past participle goes a the end with everything in the middle), at the end after most conjunctions (not denn = as/becaause) or before the subject if something stands in the place of the subject. There is gramatically only one place to be filled before the conjugated verb (otherwise you're most likely asking a question) and that's mostly the subject (in English you've got two: "I usually have", "I just do"), if the place is taken by something like 'yesterday', or 'this evening', the subject takes the first evailable place which is after the verb. Mind you, this 'place' can be a whole sentence/clause if that happêns to be the object or something to do with time. 'He was coming to the party, he said' or in the past the latter bit would have been 'said he' in English. German would still use in inversion in this case.

There are a few lingguists who have argued that calling Dutch and German SVO languages (subject-verb-object languages as in main sentence structure) is misleading, as most often you are not using the simple present/past, but some compound tense and then the most important verb that is the sense of everything is at the back. So really it should be the Latin model SOV, only if there is no participle of some kind does a verb feature in the beginning of the sentence.

In proper English, you've got all kinds of mad remainders of the past. You can invert the subject and verb in English, only in very few cases can you do that, but there definitely are as I just proved; You can also not do it. It's your own choice.

Where I find that German is tricky, is the addition of that little something more. Like 'Auswertung'. It means evaluation/appraisal (in this case the latter may be best), but it gives you a direction 'out of' (aus) which you can't get across. You've got many verbs like that.
Enough about German.

So how is it with Welsh? I heard it was pretty straightforward.

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## cacian

English was hard at first for me but I picked up I say within 3 to 4 fours years of learning and immersing in the English culture.
I think any language is hard to grasp at first not just English and so it is down to the person and their instinctive to communicate regardless of what the language is.

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## kasie

Welsh straightforward? Whoever told you that? They lied.

I'm a native English speaker who has learned French, Italian and German as living languages and Latin and Old English (Anglo Saxon) as dead (ie read only) languages. I found the Latin-based languages easiest to learn, modern German marginally more difficult and OE/AS quite difficult.

But Welsh? I struggled. I learned it because I lived in a Welsh-speaking part of Wales for many years and thought it would be courteous to learn the language my new friends used. I was warned it was not easy but I persevered and gradually, very gradually, acquired enough of the language to be able to hold a very simple conversation, watch a little tv and read a simple passage. I was learning part-time and possibly with intensive study would have made faster progress. 

Why did I find it so difficult? Possibly because it bore no relation to any language I had previously learned, no useful clues from word formation but mostly because the grammatical rules were unlike anything I had come across before. It was the use of mutation that confused me greatly at first - certain letters change in certain circumstances: I found it hard to take in all the situations where mutation is used. It's not a question of learning a few at a time, you need to know them all from almost the word go and though the same letters are mutated, they change in different ways according to the usage required. 

Nacht Jagen did not say why he/she is learning Welsh - if it is for reading Old Welsh literature then I can understand the reason but NJ should be aware that Classical Welsh is unlike the vernacular Welsh in use today, much as Old and Middle English are at a remove from present day usage, also the Welsh spoken in North Wales is different from that spoken in South Wales, so much so that at first, they seem like different languages. My (Welsh born but not Welsh speaking) parents used to say that only the Welsh spoke Welsh and if I were going to make the effort to learn another language, at least I should learn one that would be useful to me. Hence, I left learning Welsh until such time as I heard it spoken by friends and neighbours.

I suspect the reason Welsh is said to be easy is that on the whole it is pronounced as it is written: however, not all letters remain the same (the 's' in siarad - speak - is not the same as the 's' in Dydd Sadwrn - Saturday) and as well as having letters peculiar to itself (ll, ff, dd, all regarded as letters despite having two symbols) most of the vowels are pronounced differently to the English vowels and 'w' and 'y' are treated as vowels. 

Good Luck to anyone who tries to learn it but don't expect it to be easy!

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## hannah_arendt

> Welsh straightforward? Whoever told you that? They lied.
> 
> I'm a native English speaker who has learned French, Italian and German as living languages and Latin and Old English (Anglo Saxon) as dead (ie read only) languages. I found the Latin-based languages easiest to learn, modern German marginally more difficult and OE/AS quite difficult.
> 
> But Welsh? I struggled. I learned it because I lived in a Welsh-speaking part of Wales for many years and thought it would be courteous to learn the language my new friends used. I was warned it was not easy but I persevered and gradually, very gradually, acquired enough of the language to be able to hold a very simple conversation, watch a little tv and read a simple passage. I was learning part-time and possibly with intensive study would have made faster progress. 
> 
> Why did I find it so difficult? Possibly because it bore no relation to any language I had previously learned, no useful clues from word formation but mostly because the grammatical rules were unlike anything I had come across before. It was the use of mutation that confused me greatly at first - certain letters change in certain circumstances: I found it hard to take in all the situations where mutation is used. It's not a question of learning a few at a time, you need to know them all from almost the word go and though the same letters are mutated, they change in different ways according to the usage required. 
> 
> Nacht Jagen did not say why he/she is learning Welsh - if it is for reading Old Welsh literature then I can understand the reason but NJ should be aware that Classical Welsh is unlike the vernacular Welsh in use today, much as Old and Middle English are at a remove from present day usage, also the Welsh spoken in North Wales is different from that spoken in South Wales, so much so that at first, they seem like different languages. My (Welsh born but not Welsh speaking) parents used to say that only the Welsh spoke Welsh and if I were going to make the effort to learn another language, at least I should learn one that would be useful to me. Hence, I left learning Welsh until such time as I heard it spoken by friends and neighbours.
> ...


I have always wanted to learn Welsh and I hope that maybe one day it will possible :Smile:  I know that it will be difficult because this language is completely different from every language I have ever been learning. Maybe it`s the reason why it seems to be interesting. Probably Polish won`t be neither easy for you.

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## mande2013

French is hard to learn, easy to master while English is easy to learn, hard to master.

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## JBI

> French is hard to learn, easy to master while English is easy to learn, hard to master.


French writing is incredibly difficult, not easy to master at all. As for hard to learn - well, I couldn't learn French, but I guess I may have made process if I put the same effort as I put trying to learn Chinese.

Back on topic though, this is such a subjective question. Is one, for instance learning Chinese, being a native speaker? The grammar is virtually the same, so I can switch between languages midsentence without any real difficulty. It's not exactly learning a new language, in the sense that it is reapplying the same rules already internalized with new vocabulary. There are a few particularities, but not as many as in other pairings of languages.

Now, Japanese as a counter example is far, far harder to make sense of as an English speaker. I cannot seem to get my mind around the grammar, as this actually is a code switch - I am not used to the ordering of words, and it gives me a headache to think like this. The characters don't pose much of a problem as I am proficient in Chinese and Classical Chinese, so I can pretty much memorize them on first glance - but my god, the grammar is murder.

Now, if I were a native speaker of English without Chinese knowledge, it would be impossible to pick up the language in the way I am (characters right from the beginning, instead of the Western approach of starting with fewer characters and "learning" to write Chinese characters). This is what I call really learning a new language - everything is foreign.

So, is English hard? Probably much harder for a certain group, and not so difficult for certain people.

As for the personal element, this is much more difficult. Certain mouths like the sounds of certain languages, and certain people enjoy certain cultures. I don't see the success of much of the "forced" education we have, except in Europe where they somehow converted much of the population to learn English without protest in a way the English speakers of the world will never learn any other language.

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## Eiseabhal

English spelling is weird.

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## cacian

> English spelling is weird.


is it? how do you mean?

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## hannah_arendt

> English is an incredibly difficult language to learn. Being from Germany, I speak German, French, Swedish, and I know how to carry a very basic conversation in Greek. I'm currently learning Welsh, as well. When I moved to America, English was a hassle to understand. So many rules in the writing and speaking of it are not always consistent. It was very frustrating.


How do you find Welsh? I have been fascinated by the sound if this language but for now I don`t have time for it :Frown:

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## hannah_arendt

> French writing is incredibly difficult, not easy to master at all. As for hard to learn - well, I couldn't learn French, but I guess I may have made process if I put the same effort as I put trying to learn Chinese.
> 
> Back on topic though, this is such a subjective question. Is one, for instance learning Chinese, being a native speaker? The grammar is virtually the same, so I can switch between languages midsentence without any real difficulty. It's not exactly learning a new language, in the sense that it is reapplying the same rules already internalized with new vocabulary. There are a few particularities, but not as many as in other pairings of languages.
> 
> Now, Japanese as a counter example is far, far harder to make sense of as an English speaker. I cannot seem to get my mind around the grammar, as this actually is a code switch - I am not used to the ordering of words, and it gives me a headache to think like this. The characters don't pose much of a problem as I am proficient in Chinese and Classical Chinese, so I can pretty much memorize them on first glance - but my god, the grammar is murder.
> 
> Now, if I were a native speaker of English without Chinese knowledge, it would be impossible to pick up the language in the way I am (characters right from the beginning, instead of the Western approach of starting with fewer characters and "learning" to write Chinese characters). This is what I call really learning a new language - everything is foreign.
> 
> So, is English hard? Probably much harder for a certain group, and not so difficult for certain people.
> ...


If it comes to French, I agree with you. At the very beginning, I found this language very difficult but later it was much easier.

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## Eiseabhal

"i"riomhe "e" ach e deidh "c" ach seall air a facal "weird". I am pulling your legs pal.

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## Eiseabhal

I was brought up speaking a language with VERY regular spelling.

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## hannah_arendt

If it come to phonetics, polish is very difficult for almost every foreigner. Most of consonant clusters are real nightmare for learners. So, I think that English isn`t so bad :Smile:

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## Vota

I tried to learn Japanese, and I have to concur, the syntax was murder on my brain.

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## Mohammad Ahmad

Hi, 
Why do we say that English is a difficult language?

Although I am Arabic and was born in Arabic land and the origin of my parents is indeed Arabic, and no one of my grandfathers had married with a foreign woman, but I find the English language is easier hundred times than Arabic language due to the Arabic grammar is very difficult and often I would like to answer with English not to answer by Arabic..
Arabic language contains words if you slightly changed the position of the diacritical mark the meaning will be upset up to down, the object may be changed to subject or vise versa, thus you need to be very careful against of that you will commit an awful mistake…
I myself the talker till now although I have learned many years in school and after school yet I fear from the Arabic language lest not to fall in committing mistakes and the matter lastly will be frustrated and perplexing to me….

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## mal4mac

> The great problem Im being facing is that of writing good, plain


Why not hire someone to correct your English? Or find someone interested in perfecting your first language, and correct each other for free. Just make sure to find a native speaker of the language. There are many Indian people I know who have been in England for decades but still speak English "in an Indian way". Your use of *being* in "The great problem Im being facing is ..." is typical of the "faulty" English I hear used by Indian people. If you re-read your posts carefully then you may spot elements like this that are obviously redundant to a native speaker. I mean, doesn't "The great problem I'm facing is..." sound correct to you? Another way to proceed is simply to read lots of English novels and listen to broadcasts on the BBC World Service.

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## mal4mac

> Hi, 
> Why do we say that English is a difficult language?


As a native speaker I'm always spotting small errors in the way that foreign people speak English, even if they have much acquaintance with the language. Your English is very good but there are subtle errors, which I hope you will excuse me pointing out, given the nature of this thread.




> Although I am Arabic and was born in Arabic land...


That's a subtle "error", an English native would say, "I was born in an Arabic land," or more likely specify the country, "I was born in Egypt."




> but I find the English language is easier hundred times than Arabic language due to the Arabic grammar


Although an English person would understand this perfectly, and would normally be too polite to correct your English, this is an incorrect way of speaking. A native speaker would say, "is a hundred times easier". My knowledge of grammar is pitiful, so I would hesitate to say that your grammar is wrong here, English (in theory!) allows great flexibility in grammar. I think this reveals the main problem that good non-native speakers of English have. It's little "turns of phrase" that give them away.





> no one of my grandfathers had married with a foreign woman


The "with" is redundant, a native speaker would say, "had married a foreign woman". I can see why you added the "with". English is not always logical! 




> Arabic language contains words if you slightly changed the position of the diacritical mark the meaning will be upset up to down, the object may be changed to subject or vise versa, thus you need to be very careful against of that you will commit an awful mistake


Interesting. English has the opposite problem. If you put words in the wrong place the meaning will still, usually, be easy to ascertain, which makes it difficult for learners to learn the right word order, especially if they learn from teachers who "don't care". Many English people who go into "teaching English as a foreign language" know that their pupils will be understood if they don't quite get things quite right, so, for an easy life, don't bother make sure that their pupils get everything absolutely correct.

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## Mohammad Ahmad

Ok! Dear Sir I find some interests in what you said for example you said English speaker would say :
A hundred times is better….. sorry for this mistake because the phrase ( hundred times) is considered as a singular .. Ok that's right, again I would say and I would recognize that my language although many teachers and many people would admire and say that your language is good, but perfectly I know that my language yet is not the same native Englishman language, however it can be understood ,and by the all means of , it is not a weak language.
Otherwise, under any consideration it is not weak …..
I know my friend , I know! Thank you for your delighting correction. But let me say I am proud enough In what I wrote!
The topic you brought or others brought is dealing with a question that the English language is difficult, for this reason I put my comments and if not I consider the English is the easy one in the entire world languages,I should not write any letter.
Still I remember the day when I am small student in the second class of the secondary school and when our teacher in English did such mistake in answering the grammar exercises , spontaneously I stood raising my hand and said to him" your are wrong my teacher!"
Can you correct it? I said yes!….. And from that time I am who answered all the exercises on the blackboard and no less than 90% I had gained in all years of my study…
However, I would like to thank you again and I would receive any correction whether from you or from any member else with great delight
2- No one or ( none) of my grandfathers had married ( with) with is awkward here, that's right, but in the manner of our quickly writing sometimes we forget the subtle principles as you said exactly….
Best regards and wishes
I would be pleasureful to hear any correction

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## kiki1982

The grammar was wrong, because the word order was faulty. Although I don't want to be pedantic  :Wink: . I think you've got a problem with articles (I don't think you have any in Arabic, do you?) and a slight problem with the tenses. It's 'When I was a boy/little', because you're not a boy anymore. Everything that's in the past (even this morning) is strictly past, so this morning you _were_ in town too. In fact a few minutes ago you _were_ upstairs, if you've come down the stairs in the meantime.

I agree that English is easy to start with. It's straightforward and you can express yourself in a matter of months. No-one will be pedantic (unlike the French sometimes) and start correcting you. HOWEVER, changing the word order can have slight differences of meaning (mainly emphasis). You can 'I go to town sometimes' or 'I sometimes go to town.' It depends whether 'sometimes' is important.
A lot is possible in English and sometimes what is possible isn't necessarily right.

I can say, 'Only one time did he try.' but it sounds too lyrical and so we would rather say 'He tried only one time/once.' But you can still say the first, provided you do it in the right context.
And so it goes with word choice. There is a difference between 'liberate' and 'free', but you need to know it.
And there is a difference between 'I will do it' and 'I'm going to do it.' 

I think there is the great pitfall of English. It looks easy, because you can explain it in five minutes, but when you get down to the nitty gritty of it, you just need to have an awful lot of material and make sense of it in terms of how it feels.

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## lichtrausch

> Hi, 
> Although I am Arabic and was born in Arabic land and the origin of my parents is indeed Arabic, and no one of my grandfathers had married with a foreign woman, but I find the English language is easier hundred times than Arabic language due to the Arabic grammar is very difficult and often I would like to answer with English not to answer by Arabic..


That's probably because the dialect you grew up speaking (presumably Iraqi Arabic) is far removed from the official language of the Arabic world, Modern Standard Arabic. I'll bet you are completely comfortable with your native dialect, and it is only MSA that gives you headaches.

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## Eman Resu

kiki1982 - Ihr Englisch ist _viel_ besser als mein Deutsch - und vielleicht besser als mein Englisch! 

Mohammad Ahmad - One of the easiest ways in which to learn English _structure_ is to begin by "diagramming" sentences, since understanding subjects, predicates, modifiers and the parts of speech - and visualising their relationship(s) to one another - can be a boon to English-as-a-second-language students. Sadly, diagramming has fallen by the wayside these days, but the internet is omniscient, and a Google search for "diagramming sentences" will yield several very good sites.

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## Mohammad Ahmad

To whom mentioned my name:


Firstly I would thank the moment that I was guided voluntary to come here, since until death the man needs to learn.
It is a forum never have I seen!
I would thank all members sharing the article without excluding anyone.....
I would like to thank the administration in accepting me to be member here... 

My comments to all:


Is there anyone whose name is Mohammad Ahmad other than me?
Seemingly you considered me as someone didn't know the part of the speech! It is awful if you think that....
For me I have learned the British grammar, I think it is slightly differs from the American....
Dear Sir. Give me your pardon if I turn annoyed and will not share in any word.....
The matter you mentioned the boy in the fifth primary class has learned it as he learned his name....
But not to say he wants to flee, let me in brief answer tell you what is the part of the speech:
1- The subject which started the sentence \ the clause ( the sentence can be composed of one clause, two, more)
2- The verb which it comes past the subject and it is the item which carries the meaning although there are verbless clauses especially in the non- finite clauses - the adverbial one, moreover the verb itself can be divided for five form: the basic, the S form, the past ( V-ed 1), the (ing form), and the V-ed 2 the participle\ passive 
3- The complement .So the order of the English sentence basically is: S V C...
Some verbs are dynamic others are static, the static one needs not for object as I say, He is a teacher. ( teacher is subject complement Sc) it is always is considered as adjective, the dynamic verb needs object, some dynamic verbs took two objects.
e.g. He gave me the book ( two objects in the complement)...direct object\ indirect object
The pronoun ( he, she, they, we, etc..) can be either subject or object....
The modifier is the the item which precedes the subject such as ( The dirty boy...) His graceful hand, This river. Both of them..all of the rocky road.etc...
The modifier belongs to a main basic group, the group we called it generally the modification and this divided to premodification( the modifier) and post modification i.e. it comes after the head noun ...
example for the verbless clause :
While at England, he was active in drama. Seeing the large crowd, he went on his way....
There is something in grammar we called the predeterminer and the post determiner, but I haven't waste of time to discuss , I want to sleep...

MMA - Iraqi translator

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## kiki1982

> kiki1982 - Ihr Englisch ist _viel_ besser als mein Deutsch - und vielleicht besser als mein Englisch!


Und ich hoffe, meines ist auch viel besser als mein Deutsch, denn Deutsch ist nicht meine Muttersprache, sondern meine dritte. Englisch ist meine zweite und Niederländisch meine erste, aber das hättest du nicht wissen können  :Wink: .

Diagramming sentences is helpful, you are right, but I'm not sure if English students can benefit much from that. Schools teach things like 'always' goes between subject and verb, but sometimes it doesn't work that way. In German and Dutch it can help, because it's often more or less the same.

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## Eman Resu

> Und ich hoffe, meines ist auch viel besser als mein Deutsch, denn Deutsch ist nicht meine Muttersprache, sondern meine dritte. Englisch ist meine zweite und Niederländisch meine erste, aber das hättest du nicht wissen können .
> 
> Diagramming sentences is helpful, you are right, but I'm not sure if English students can benefit much from that. Schools teach things like 'always' goes between subject and verb, but sometimes it doesn't work that way. In German and Dutch it can help, because it's often more or less the same.



Ik kan _lezen_ Nederlands, maar wanneer ik _spreek_ Nederlands ik klinken als Elmer Fudd.

You might be correct; I was suggesting only that diagramming might help Mohammad Ahmad to better visualise the _structure_ of English. My first language is French, and I was taught diagramming English sentences at an early age (dinosaurs still roamed free then). I found it very helpful because the noun / verb; subject / predicate relationship between French and English is at odds in so many cases.

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## Aylinn

I don't think English is difficult, but I think that people often are unaware of how much work and time they need to learn a foreign language. The problem is the lack of perseverance more than difficulty. Most people want it to be an easy and quick task, but when they find the process of learning being slow and demanding, they give up.

I wonder how much influence on this state of affairs has our consumer society, where you can get almost everything easily and quickly or the slogans like learn language in 3 months. I sometimes encounter people who really believe it and get disappointed when they are not fluent after this period of time. Usually they later explain that they have no talent as if talent were so necessary.

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## hannah_arendt

It`s not possible to learn any language quickly and in easy way. I don`t believe in talent for learning languages. It`s just the matter of work and time.

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## kiki1982

Hmm, I don't know. That's not to say that a talented person will be able to learn a language fluently in a few months and another will need years, but I think there is something like the ability to adopt strange structures or features more easily.
Saying that though, my husband's Polish, Czech and Slovak students are consistently better at English than the Spanish, Italians and French. Obviously because they have such elaborate structures that they easily pick up simpler ones.
The number of English natives I have heard claim that even Spanish is too difficult ( :Eek: ) because they have no talent is quite high. I guess that has more to do with the idea or ability to think in another language than it has to do with talent. Maybe the idea that everyone has that talent in a larger or smaller amount is introduced to you when you are little.

Although, my husband must have a secret, because he can pick up basic structures in 2 weeks. Without lessons. I think that's quite amazing.

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## mal4mac

> ... I think there is something like the ability to adopt strange structures or features more easily.


And the willingness. I remember at age 11 finding the use of gender ridiculous (das Madchen, what's the sense in that?) Being totally entranced by the logic and rationality of science, at that age, I just gave up on languages as irrational! (I continued to use English  :Smile:

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## Eman Resu

> And the willingness. I remember at age 11 finding the use of gender ridiculous (das Madchen, what's the sense in that?)


If it makes you feel any better, there's a convolution there which isn't readily seen. "Mädchen," is a diminutive - just as "kitty" is a diminutive of "cat" in English - of its ProtoGermanic root, "magaþs," [i.e. "meid"] which, like its Old Dutch antecedent "meid" / "meisje" (or is it "meidje? - kiki will know this one) is feminine in its _root_ form, but neutral once it gets its "chen" and becomes a diminutive.

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## lichtrausch

> Saying that though, my husband's Polish, Czech and Slovak students are consistently better at English than the Spanish, Italians and French. Obviously because they have such elaborate structures that they easily pick up simpler ones.


I think it has more to do with the fact that Polish, Czech and Slovak students need English more than the speakers of major Romance languages. Spanish or French will get you pretty far in this world. Czech or Slovak? Not so much.

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## Aylinn

> I think it has more to do with the fact that Polish, Czech and Slovak students need English more than the speakers of major Romance languages. Spanish or French will get you pretty far in this world. Czech or Slovak? Not so much.


Yeah, I too thought about it. From what I heard and noticed, since people from western Europe have a more comfortable situation, they appear to be often less determined and ambitious.

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## kiki1982

> If it makes you feel any better, there's a convolution there which isn't readily seen. "Mädchen," is a diminutive - just as "kitty" is a diminutive of "cat" in English - of its ProtoGermanic root, "magaþs," [i.e. "meid"] which, like its Old Dutch antecedent "meid" / "meisje" (or is it "meidje? - kiki will know this one) is feminine in its _root_ form, but neutral once it gets its "chen" and becomes a diminutive.


It's 'meisje', but it comes from the same root, you are right. Also Fräulein (everything with -lein is old diminutive, you can see this in Goethe poems, for example). Once upon a time, English used to have genders, but maybe it's what the German author of this lousy book about English we've got at home claims: every immigrant, from the Romans, to the Saxons, Normans, Danes, Vikings and all the others just got so confused they stopped trying and made a language that had many features, but whose structures were pretty basic for everyone. I don't think it is that way, because only round about Chaucer did nearly all genders disappear. There are some left, mind you: England is a 'she', as is a ship and there are a few more that I can't remember.




> I think it has more to do with the fact that Polish, Czech and Slovak students need English more than the speakers of major Romance languages. Spanish or French will get you pretty far in this world. Czech or Slovak? Not so much.


I may not have explained myself properly: these students are in the same class, same level and work at the EU, so there should be no differences, but Eastern Europeans are definitely statistically better at applying grammar than the French. Don't talk about Spanish students, they're hopeless. And I've been correcting my husband's exams for years now. Italians are 50-50. There are good ones, and there are abysmal ones. Eastern Europeans always come in the upper échelons (70-80%, there are not many who do 90%, I've only come across a handful).

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## Eman Resu

> Eastern Europeans are definitely statistically better at applying grammar than the French.


We do not need ze grammar - we have_ l'amour!_

.

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## JBI

> It`s not possible to learn any language quickly and in easy way. I don`t believe in talent for learning languages. It`s just the matter of work and time.


It is possible to learn languages in faster and more efficient ways. Second language learning, from both a resource and from a pedagogy perspective is going through a bit of a slump. All these teach yourself x and learn x in 3 months are all nonsense. Basically the only effective method is to have material that is both difficult, and designed to progress at a rapid rate. I have found that all the Chinese language resources available to me, for instance, were all pretty much written from propaganda perspectives with very little to encourage somebody on how to speak, read, or write properly. My Japanese text books they make me use here are dragging my *** through a bunch of unexplained nonsense, which, rather than explain in linguistic terms basic things, sticks primarily to using repetitive patterns to try to enforce understanding.

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## mande2013

Part of the problem is people have become quite anti-intellectual and "pragmatic" about second language acquisition. That's not to say people don't seek to learn new languages, but they only seek to do it in the most practical manner possible. Reading literature in that language is deemed impractical, you know because people don't speak the way John Milton or Proust writes. It's anti-intellectual nonsense. There's this notion that the most important thing is to be able to speak the language in a "real world" setting, and they believe reading literature doesn't bring you towards that goal. I obviously disagree, since reading Proust or Milton, if in the latter case you're learning English as a second language, will expand your vocabulary and train you to think in the target language. I guess my point is, what's wrong with taking an intellectual approach to learning a language?

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## hannah_arendt

> It is possible to learn languages in faster and more efficient ways. Second language learning, from both a resource and from a pedagogy perspective is going through a bit of a slump. All these teach yourself x and learn x in 3 months are all nonsense. Basically the only effective method is to have material that is both difficult, and designed to progress at a rapid rate. I have found that all the Chinese language resources available to me, for instance, were all pretty much written from propaganda perspectives with very little to encourage somebody on how to speak, read, or write properly. My Japanese text books they make me use here are dragging my *** through a bunch of unexplained nonsense, which, rather than explain in linguistic terms basic things, sticks primarily to using repetitive patterns to try to enforce understanding.


You are right that we can facilitate many things. Without any doubt nowadays, there is much easier than earliert. We have many textbooks, audio materials and videos and of course software, internet. However you still have to put your effort and time in it.

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## hannah_arendt

> Part of the problem is people have become quite anti-intellectual and "pragmatic" about second language acquisition. That's not to say people don't seek to learn new languages, but they only seek to do it in the most practical manner possible. Reading literature in that language is deemed impractical, you know because people don't speak the way John Milton or Proust writes. It's anti-intellectual nonsense. There's this notion that the most important thing is to be able to speak the language in a "real world" setting, and they believe reading literature doesn't bring you towards that goal. I obviously disagree, since reading Proust or Milton, if in the latter case you're learning English as a second language, will expand your vocabulary and train you to think in the target language. I guess my point is, what's wrong with taking an intellectual approach to learning a language?



Reading literature demans quite hight knowledge. However there are editions adjusted to the levels. As far as I observe my pupils, they don`t want to read any books, even in Polish. I sometimes give them short texts connected with the british or american culture. I think that I can`t do more.

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## mal4mac

> ... there's a convolution there which isn't readily seen. "Mädchen," is a diminutive - just as "kitty" is a diminutive of "cat" in English - of its ProtoGermanic root, "magaþs," [i.e. "meid"] which, like its Old Dutch antecedent "meid" / "meisje" (or is it "meidje? - kiki will know this one) is feminine in its _root_ form, but neutral once it gets its "chen" and becomes a diminutive.


That's interesting. So is every German word ending in "chen" neutral? What about "der Wagen"? Why are cars masculine?

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## kiki1982

Yes, every word ending in -chen or -lein is neutral. So Fräulein (Miss) too. No exceptions.

Der Wagen is masculine, because it is, but der Magen (stomach) is also masculine, so probably it has to do with that word structure. There are rules to it, but they only taught them to me when I was two years in. They should have done that earlier. Generally, things ending in e are feminine (apart from weak nouns like der Kunde [customer], but they are few and far between, are mostly developed from verbs, like der Angestellte [official] from anstellen = appoint and refer to people), things in -ung are also feminine, as are words ending in -(i)tät (an ending that also occurs in French and Dutch as -(i)té and -(i)teit respectively), -heit/keit.
Nouns with plurals in -(¨)er are generally neutral. Masculine nouns usually get plurals in -(¨)e. So you've got two chances to distinguish between male and neutral, even if they look the same.
Things like Wagen do not get a plural ending or they get an ¨only, like der Ofen, die Öfen.

Then there are foreign origin nouns that are generally neutral too. Das Auto, for example. Das Handy (mobile), das Baby.

It's not so hard as it seems, because after a while you get combinations in other cases into your head that help you deduce the gender if you can't remember.

About the reading thing:

I just think there is a general contempt for anyone trying to use his/her intelligence. Reading is not only not popular in language learning, it's not popular in general (or it's on the internet, but that's short). Many learners get freaked out by words they can't understand straight away and then give up. Me too, but they weren't interesting books I had to read for French. I only discovered those great books when I was much older. The point is that perseverance is non-existent. If books about 'learn x in 3 months' sell, then you can figure out what the chance is that those same people will try and slog through a children's book in the target language.

@JBI:

Don't you think it's to do with textbook writers' perceptions about how things should be taught? I mean, my _Russian for Everyone_ book (one of the best, my hubby used it in uni, despite it's title  :Wink: ) featured as one of the first words in a reading exercise (when we had got to the longer words) the word 'communist'. Capitalist came some 10 chapters later. For the rest it was very methodical, as the Russian language is, even if it was a little propagandist at times (the last text featured a bus with passengers that were all studying things  :Rolleyes: ). On the other side, most of the French textbooks I was so fortunate as to learn from were boring, made you learn pedantic and useless vocab and usually featured texts about French accomplishments and companies (Club Med, for example). Sadly nothing about French chanson (apart from Jean-Jacques Goldman) or the French Revolution. Even less about the French kings. On the other side, the English textbooks were always very interesting and even if you weren't interested in what the teacher was trying to teach you, you would be interested in what the text to teach you it was about. So it was win-win.

If the Japanese think that repeating things over and over like schoolmasters used to do in England and anywhere for that matter maybe until the 50s (I think they still do this in Africa and other parts of Asia) is productive, then who can blame them for basing their textbooks for Japanese on that? Of course, we would not dream of that and we envisage a language class as an ideal English class: dynamic, fun and interesting on a non-linguistic level, but obviously that's not how they see it, I guess.

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## Aylinn

@JBI: Aren't there any books for learning Japanese prepered by English people who studied Japanese and teach it on a university level? Wouldn't it be better to use them if Japanese ones are no to your liking? 

As for Poland, you can find some interesting textbooks prepared by academics. I have been learning Spanish from such a textbook, now it's rather out-dated, but I don't care, as it is very bookworm friendly. There are some easy, but intriguing and funny fragments from books of notable Spanish authors like Vicente Blasco Ibáñez, etc. And it was the same when two years ago I bought a book like that for my friend who is interested in Latin. At the beginning there are some lessons with texts written for total beginners, but then they proceed by giving fragments from Cicero, Virgil, etc. That seems to me far more interesting way of learning then getting through endless boring texts prepared for language learners.

Of course, there is also a small dictionary under the text where new words are translated, so it is no problem to undestand the given fragment.

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## Eman Resu

> Of course, we would not dream of that and we envisage a language class as an ideal English class: dynamic, fun and interesting on a non-linguistic level, but obviously that's not how they see it, I guess.



You've had the distinct advantage of beginning Life with a language little changed from its initial shift from ProtoGerman to Low Franconian (even if you grew up in Belgium, and your Dutch was dialectical, like Brabants and Flemish). In America, modern educational practise is to ignore then structure of the English language almost entirely, and to pretend that the Latin and Greek etymological antecedents - together with formation and relation prefixially and suffixially - are valueless, and instead to teach each (English) word as a separate fragment of vocabulary, rather than examining the root, extrapolating from it, and learning the language innately. 

In Dutch or German, modern language is derived primarily "from itself," which is to say from ProtoGermanic platforms (again, save for the southern dialects which borrow so heavily from Middle French); in English, nearly three-quarters of the roots are derived from Latin etymological antecedents, and yet no Latin (not even a rote examination of the most common verb and noun forms) is taught when teaching English. Words like "accept," "inception," "exception," "capable," "perceive," "capacity," "receipt," "perceptive," "capture," "occupy," "conceit," "intercept," "receptacle," "recipient," and cetera are learned individually, rather than learning _a single word in_ Latin - capere - and building the vocabulary of all of the above words from it.





> Part of the problem is people have become quite anti-intellectual,,,,


I wish this remark wasn't absolutely true. Despite the fact that he was discussing "new ideas" as they related to visualising architecture, Alberti's famous remark, "commune hoc ignorantiæ vitium est: quæ nescias, nequicquam esse profiteri," can be applied to the (perception of) learning of almost _anything,_ and nowhere is this more glaringly apparent in the modern world than with language and the communications Arts.

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## mande2013

I reject the idea that English is easier than French. Rather, I would suggest English is easy to learn but difficult to master while French is difficult to learn but easy to master, since the latter is a more "self-contained" language than the former. What makes English "easier" is that you can speak it poorly and still be understood. That's not the case with French. However, English pronunciation is more difficult I think. While neither language can be classified as phonetic like Spanish, French is still more phonetic than English, since there are very few phonemes one needs to internalize whereas English has a vast array of them. Also, English has more vocabulary.

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## PaulStephen

I don't think that English is difficult language. By daily speaking practice we can improve that very much.And continuous update of vocabulary knowledge led us to a good English writer.

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## ennison

In what way would knowing what capere meant to Julius Kaiser enable you to learn "innately"?

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## New Secret

I am very well learned and well versed in the English language. Being that I am part English makes it all that much easier. Much like if an Italian-American who only knows English went to Italy to learn the Italian language she would learn it quicker and easier than the non-Italian that does the same thing. Language is deeper than symbols on a page, it is rooted in our brains. In France and Germany they control the language tyrannically, dictating what new words are acceptable and changing the meaning of old words. The English language in contrast is like an open-source culture wherein anyone can create new words, shape the way the language is used and so on and so forth. It's all about what catches on with what people say and what drops out of usage. That's why English is such a widely used language. 

Also, English is very confusing for foreigners and is filled with riddling contrasts where words that sound the same mean entirely unrelated things, one word can mean several unrelated things and the spelling of some words can get confusing. For those of us who naturally speak English it can get irritating to deal with foreigners who criticize us for what seems contradicting to them while they learn it. We say they know "broken-English", not a true language, but they try and "fix" the language anyways and they tumble down a hole of impossibilities while trying to rule the open-source.

English has changed a lot in it's history, having originated in Denmark and brought to Great Britain before the middle ages. At the turn of the 20th century the male-female slant in English went slowly out of usage and now you see in America a recent surge in dumbing the language down. In the United Kingdom though people continue to speak intelligently with words greater than five letters long.

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## Dreamwoven

Your English is remarkably good! Spelling trip us all up sometimes. Nice. I like the phrase "tumble down a hole of impossibilities".

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## justinvirk

no English is not a difficult who say that...but when you live in different environment then you mostly used your mother tongue....when you regularly use English it is depend on your environment where you live currently

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## Paulclem

English isn't difficult. I picked it up from being a toddler......sorry....

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## justinvirk

ya sir Mr.Paulclem you pickup english like a Toddler..I am already talk about english....if it your Mother tongue and you regularly used it in your daily life then you easily pickup this language

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## Paulclem

My bad Justin. I was just joking. Unfortunately I am virtually monolingual - I did French badly at school.

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## justinvirk

its not your bad Mr....You are monolingual hope so your mono language is also English...Don't worry about your French...English is universal language

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## natasha990

Hey guys speaking english is really easy thing,many people face problems in this some wants to learn fluently for campus selections etc.... :Smile: 
The best thing is daily talk with your self try to speak with the people who speaks well try to gather the words from google which you want to know . Google also helps you so that you can learn fastly.

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## justinvirk

exactly natasha990..if we are daily practise at home...and communicate in english with others... obviously we improve the english..and speak well..Thanks for post

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## noface0711

I'm a native English speaker, and thus it is my mother tongue, but I was also brought up speaking French as a second language. One thing I have learned about both tongues is that there are millions of exceptions to the grammatical rules of both languages! And, the exceptions have exceptions!

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## ennison

Ok Steve. Don't worry. I learned this tongue as a second language. There are no difficult languages only dim people.

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## metal134

> English isn't difficult. I picked it up from being a toddler......sorry....


It's actually WAY easier to learn language as a toddler than as an adult.

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## Dreamwoven

I learned English and Hungarian exactly like that. As an infant languages are more absorbed than learned.

There is a sequel to this that works as follows: English became my mother tongue because we lived in England when I was a small child during the Second World War. For this reason, too, I never mastered Swedish as a mother tongue, and Hungarian became less and less a mother tongue, as I moved out of the family and in to working life.

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## Emil Miller

> I learned English and Hungarian exactly like that. As an infant languages are more absorbed than learned.


This is very true, the longer one leaves learning a language the more difficult it becomes.
I had a neighbour in England, a German woman, who had two little girls; they would speak together in German which the mother forbade them to do as the language was frowned upon in post-war Britain. I thought her action was silly given that she was damaging their chances of becoming bilingual.

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## _August_

Any language is difficult, either it's your mother tongue or any foreign one. Depends on what you want to do with it. Say, become a journalist/writer/tv-reporter. Even to a well-educated native speaker it sometimes proves impossible.
If you want, for instance, to read novels, watch movies, listen to the radio in English, understand and enjoy it, I fail to see any difficulties with it, just like millions of other non-native speakers who truly acquired the language.
Speaking seems to be the main concern though. You need to practice everyday, and if you do have some people, preferably adequate speakers, with whom you can talk on a regular basis, you aren't likely to encounter any problems. Apart from pronunciation. As for me, I'll never stop polishing it, seems like a life-time process...

One more thought: Actually it's difficult not to learn English. Nowadays you have everything you need for this purpose.

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## Dreamwoven

Yes, August, I have to agree with that. You hear it all around you, including popular music, which must have done wonders for youngsters learning English!

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## mortalterror

Not for the English.

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## Inverted

English is an imprecise language. That's why it's easy to learn but not easy to master.

Languages like German have far more words and far more specific words. With English, a word can carry so many meanings.

Take the word "Permissive" for example. "This was a very permissive policy". "He was a very permissive person". What the heck does that even mean? They permit things? They're easy going? They're lax on rules? They're mild-mannered? They're tolerant?

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## Dreamwoven

This is a very good point, Inverted.

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## barbarasimmings

If you like to be meaningful ,without wanting others to notice,then learn english.they will notice how cunning you are; I adored english while not a native .

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## barbarasimmings

Permissive just means permissive!

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## barbarasimmings

You have to think british, meaning being cunny,and thus polite.with the same token you can say whatever yu like,just say it with a bit of sarcastic or uncertain manner, job done .

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