# Reading > Philosophical Literature >  Internalized Racism

## dramasnot6

What does it mean to you? How do you think it is created? Is it more of a product of personal upbringing or societal belief? Can people recover from it? Who experiences it most? 

What do you think? :Wink:

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## Eagleheart

Difference cannot alone account for the phenomenon of racism - that is for sure...Rather I hold that when certain differences, which do not serve the interests of those who can be designated as racists occur, the phenomenon spreads itself...In my state for example the minority of turks is subjected to quiet racism and the rise of this tide of racistic attitude has been only recently engendered when the state enhanced its social policy toward the turks...Ethnic differences were always evident, but these differences started to provoke racism only when the interests of our majority were hindered by these differences. 
More or less racism is intensified when preached at home, it could have domestic as well as social encouragement, but its basis is nevertheless the same...
The truth is that differences are qualified as negative and positive and according to the qualification we feel hostility or friedliness toward ethnicities...And it is not compulsory for the ordinary person to believe he/she is with harmed interests, he/she may only hate because of his/her careful upbringing, but those responsible for the conditions provoking hate have their motivation exactly in this...

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## dramasnot6

Very good points eagle! But i'm afraid you misunderstood my questions, i was reffering to internalized racism specifically. Internalized racism is racism thats internalized within the victims, so they believe and often act out on the prejudices of others about their group. But you do bring up some interesting points about racism that are also relevant to internalized racism, such as that racism is promoted and manipulated by those of power and is highly influenced by racism experienced by those close to you. I agree that racism is not always the true belief of others, but that they are swayed and influenced by racism portrayed in the media and by others around them. Kinda like catching a deadly conceptual flu, huh? :Tongue:

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## genoveva

> Internalized racism is racism thats internalized within the victims, so they believe and often act out on the prejudices of others about their group.


Can you clarify further? Do you mean, for example, if a black woman is the victim of racism by a white man that she would begin to be racist against all white men? Is this your definition of "internalized racism"? Your original post is confusing. When I read "internalized racism", what I interpret is: racist tendencies that we all have but keep supressed inside us- don't act on those thoughts & feelings; yet, nevertheless, they exist. Please do clarify what you mean; I am curious.

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## dramasnot6

Oh no, thats not what i meant at all genoveva. It's when one is bombarded with racist things about them like if everyone said to them "you are this race so you are stupid" , that eventually theyll believe it themselves and consider themselves stupid.

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## Poetess

*What is Internalized Racism precisely?*

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## dramasnot6

*sigh*
Alright, if you are told things many times over you just might start to believe them. sort of like conditioning.
So if someone continually is attacked about their race, maybe they will start believing the racist things people say about them. So they will start feeling racist against themselves. External racism is racism thrust at you from other people, internal is when you feel racist about your own race.

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## brighttears

Okay, I think I see what you mean by this "internal racism", for example it can be compared to what Hitler did to the Jews during the Holocaust- right? He and many other Germans undermined Jews about their race so much that pretty soon they all began to feel as if though Jewish people are worthless.

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## dramasnot6

:Smile:  Yup, exactly right bright tears. Thank you. Ill repeat my questions now:
What does it mean to you? How do you think it is created? Is it more of a product of personal upbringing or societal belief? Can people recover from it? Who experiences it most?

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## livelaughlove

Oh, I definitely think that internalized racism is a product of society. Even when comments made about your race are clearly jokes, they still affect you profoundly, which leads to you starting to make jokes about yourself until you realize that hey! they're not really jokes I'm making, they're true. Does that make sense? 

There's no real way to recover from it, but immersing yourself in positive, non-racist people may divert those thoughts.

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## IamMissingaLink

ive experienced internalized racism about being an Australian  :FRlol:  . Our external racism, as you call it, mainly comes from the British, and it were thier beliefs about Australians which caused me to be believe the negitive stereotype. I no longer feel this way - it was irrational considering what a culturally and racially diverse nation we are.

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## Theshizznigg

Racism unfortunately often stems from human psychological nature and then misunderstanding and misconception.
Human beings form when left to themselves form families and social groups, and then from onwards societies and nations, etc. The unfortunate part about it is, is that humans within set groups consider will always consider someone outside that group with some air of suspicion. (This can happen to anyone one, from moving somewhere new and getting to know your neighbors, to a new guy or woman in the office. You get to know them, but until then you are cautious.) 
This is the psychological effect of friend or foe thinking, you want to establish if that person outside of your normal zone of comfort is friendly or hostile. This is of course natural, and effects everyone. 
This is where the use of misunderstanding or misconception then comes into play. Those who are willing to sound out their objections about something, might find a favourable ear amongst those who are unsure. 
This often happens when the normal rules of society don't apply, due to heightened tensions. (Hitler's Germany found a ready scapegoat in the German Jewry, as did much of the Klu Klux Klan in Negroes.) Other times it comes from a position that has subjected the other into a form of domination and therefore sees them as something less than themselves. (Britain, India, and South Africa. The Belgian Congo.) Or religious reasons. (Brahmins Hindus versus Pakistani Moslems, Christians vs Christians, Christians vs Moslems, holy wars, Jihads and crusades.) Hence those in a position of power, preaching these radical misconceptions because of some reason or another are often in a position of influence, those under them to accept their views as the common truth and promote their form of racism.
As for the question, does it effect people. Of course it does, but on many different levels. Some people believe what they are told and thus never even try to make a difference. Others are so incenced that they turn to violence and form other racisms, against those whom they feel have oppressed them. Other are indignant, but instead of seeking violent action actually target those theories which are spread about their race and seek to disprove them by example. Other believe what they hear, beleive that they are stuck in that system and can't break out of it, so they pursue that stereotype because its the only thing they know. 

Personally I don't have time for Rascists, you get the good and the bad in any society and in any race. I believe that if you want to work, raise a family, and practice what you believe peaceably go ahead and do it. 
The only time I will ever object is when people seek special treatment, or contribute to the degrasion of society, not the enhancement. (IE Criminal involvement, etc.)

"I may be a white boy, but I know I can jump!" 
Shizz.  :Crash:

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## ghideon

I am so glad that there is finally a discussion about this topic. IMHO it is the internalization of oppression that is the key factor in keeping oppressed groups in their place. Looking at internalized racism specifically, I would say that the psyche of blacks in America(I will only focus on that since that is the place I live)have been adequately manipulated, conditioned and distorted that any collective response to the racism that the group faces has not, yet, occured. The centuries of raicst messages that saturate this society have, inevitably, been deeply internalized in the african-american community and it is this that is responsible for the rampant drug use, inner-city violence, high rates of suicide, and on and on.
I remember reading The Auto-Biography of Malcom X and learning that when Malcom was in grade school he told his teacher that he hoped to grow up and be a lawyer. Ofcourse his teacher told him that was very unrealistic and that he should really focus on being some type of trade worker/laborer. This is only one example but this kind of daily assault on the minds of young people of color happens everywhere all the time in very big and very small ways.
I just finished reading Middle Passage by Charles Johnson. The protagonist in the novel is an ex-slave and he tells the story of his father being a slave and hating being a slave so much that he ran away, escaped. The son has hated his father for many years and still struggles with feelings of having his father abandon him, his brother and his mother.
But it also gave me insight into one of the key issues in the black community today and that is the difficulty many men of color have in terms of their role in the family. I am not black and will not write too much since I am obviously ignorant of many details. But this has everything to do with internalized racism. The psyche of the black man today in 2006 still reflects the historical legacy of black men a hundred years ago.
We are all so much more powerful then we feel and I think it is our unexpressed awareness of this fact that causes all sorts of depression and feelings of rage across the board.
nuf said,
big subject for me
has been for years
Ghideon

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## Nightshade

just so I rember this later but self forfilling prophecy!

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## Eagleheart

As it stands, Drame/ I could not link the two words of the topic correctly in Bulgarian/...I entertain that perhaps this internalized racism does not differ much from any other undervaluation...I am inclined to treat the subject as the old psychological oppression in which self-evaluation is directly dependent on foreign evaluation...In severe cases only the degree is the different factor...In internalized racism this self-evaluation is only too obssessively rejecting objectivity...This alone is not sufficient to account for internalized racism however...For example a turk is much more vulnerable to this condition than a Bulgarian and I suspect / correct me if I am wrong / that Black Americans in your country would be far more vulnerable than White Americans...So what is evident in almost every person - the self-evaluation debacle - combines with a historical or social tradition, which has developed vulnerability in this race for example to produce internalized racism...However, as I am with the impression that internalized racism exists as purely isolated phenomenon, I would attribute it more seriously to obssessively dependent self-evaluation/because no whole races appear to be subjects to it/...In this respect it makes it only a manifestation of a quite another deeply rooted problem...

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## IamMissingaLink

> As it stands, Drame/ I could not link the two words of the topic correctly in Bulgarian/...I entertain that perhaps this internalized racism does not differ much from any other undervaluation...I am inclined to treat the subject as the old psychological oppression in which self-evaluation is directly dependent on foreign evaluation...In severe cases only the degree is the different factor...In internalized racism this self-evaluation is only too obssessively rejecting objectivity...This alone is not sufficient to account for internalized racism however...For example a turk is much more vulnerable to this condition than a Bulgarian and I suspect / correct me if I am wrong / that Black Americans in your country would be far more vulnerable than White Americans...So what is evident in almost every person - the self-evaluation debacle - combines with a historical or social tradition, which has developed vulnerability in this race for example to produce internalized racism...However, as I am with the impression that internalized racism exists as purely isolated phenomenon, I would attribute it more seriously to obssessively dependent self-evaluation/because no whole races appear to be subjects to it/...In this respect it makes it only a manifestation of a quite another deeply rooted problem...


I dont think it's necesarily isolated to the individual. A large percentage of a race can be affected..the indigenous people of Australia, for example. I think there is _very_ low self-esteem amongst these communites as a whole.

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## dramasnot6

A lot of people have commented that internalized racism strictly stems from the outside world. Yet i have witnessed many people, all exposed to the same racism, and not all of them taking it so severely to the point of developing internalized racism. I think i agree with your point there Eagle(if i understood it right) that it takes a certain insecurity and vulnerability to succumb to internal racism. Yet i also think racism can be promoted in the home. Parents who are inflicted with it can influence their children to feel the same. And sometimes, just like external racism, they may not actually feel or believe their racism. They could be expressing animosity from another cause. I have met people who have grown up despising their parents culture because they had so much pressure to conform to it. It isnt the actual culture they are rebelling against or ashamed of, but the actions and feelings around pushing the culture on the kids. What do you think?

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## Eagleheart

> I have met people who have grown up despising their parents culture because they had so much pressure to conform to it. It isnt the actual culture they are rebelling against or ashamed of, but the actions and feelings around pushing the culture on the kids. What do you think?


Exactly...In this particular case of domestic dogma, culture cannot be viewed independently by the children, because even the grown mind persistently associates it with other patterns of behaviour and emotions, which are largely unpleasant, their origin being persuasion...This again proves that undervaluation of any culture, race is not an irreducible condition...Internalized racism is a manifestation of psychologically related disorders/this may be a strong word, but I cannot seem to find another/, both in the case you mentioned and false self-evaluation, the problem of internalized racism appears to be distant from any merits of race or culture or to be independent in itself, it is rather a distorted grimace of a some disunity, lurking in the personality...

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## Poetess

> What does it mean to you?


It`s just racism.




> How do you think it is created?Is it more of a product of personal upbringing or societal belief?


It is both a mixture of a personal and social upbringing since a human is "the son of his environment". It is about being affected by someone`s own race and especially in the early years.







> What do you think?


Racism makes us think about ourselves or others as inferior or unimportant, it made us cause damage to ourselves and our society.
We just should end it.

There are various types of plants, and so there are in humanity.

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## dramasnot6

What do you mean by "plans" poetess?

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## ghideon

What can we do about racism? 
What can we do about Internalized Racism?

Nobody is saying that racism does not exist or that internalized racism does not exist. So ok. Racism is a reality and so is its internalization. We agree that racism and I.R. are bad entities because many many people have suffered deeply as a result of these dynamics.

Now I don't know what to say beyond that. Not because I do not have plenty of ideas but because of questions that I want to figure out first.

I have really been spending some time trying to figure out what goes on here in the forum and in the net world in general. Here we are discussing a very important subject but there are problems. How do these discussions take place? I mean if I am talking to a friend who I know very well and care about then the conversation will reflect that. If I am talking to a complete stranger then more then likely it will be a very different conversation. Also, if I am a 65 year old African American woman and I speak about racism that is one thing. If I am a 30 year old caucasian man that is another. Both absolutely valid but the statements, ideas, emotions, questions will be coming from two people with profoundly different life experiences in relation to the topic and that will be obvious to anybody participating in the discussion.

Here I am not sure what is going down. I do not know folks too well. I know next to nothing about people's background or their current conditions. What someone does for a living? How much money do they earn? What group or groups do they belong to? Black,white,asian, Christian, Jewish, urban yuppie, rural farmer...

The reason I bring this up is because this is big stuff we are discussing and it would make sense to figure out how to actually get a handle on problems like this and use technology as effectively as possible in understanding a problem, examining its causes and impact and coming up with possible solutions.

Me? I am 42. Jewish. Born and raised in NYC. Grew up on the exact dividing line between very very wealthy folks on the Upper East Side of Manhattan and very very poor folk in Spanish Harlem and Black Harlem. I went to a private school but only hung out with the other folks on tuition assistance.

I currently live on social security and ssi. I have been unemployed for almost a decade. I live in downtown Oakland. I graduated from college in 1987 with a BA in English. I have been homeless and have served about three years in total in different jails. I have had several relationships but none of great longetivity.

OK. I have not wanted to share some of those truths about my life but I feel much better having done so. It seems to have helped me feel like I am actually going to be understood a bit more. And if this is true for me then I am confident that it is true for anybody else. 

We are miles and miles apart. We have never met each other. How do we do this? How can we use this extraordinary medium...this global, magical, instant, technological tool while doing justice to...well...to our deep yearnings for understanding, discussion, community and...justice?

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## dramasnot6

> What can we do about racism? 
> What can we do about Internalized Racism?
> 
> Nobody is saying that racism does not exist or that internalized racism does not exist. So ok. Racism is a reality and so is its internalization. We agree that racism and I.R. are bad entities because many many people have suffered deeply as a result of these dynamics.
> 
> Now I don't know what to say beyond that. Not because I do not have plenty of ideas but because of questions that I want to figure out first.
> 
> I have really been spending some time trying to figure out what goes on here in the forum and in the net world in general. Here we are discussing a very important subject but there are problems. How do these discussions take place? I mean if I am talking to a friend who I know very well and care about then the conversation will reflect that. If I am talking to a complete stranger then more then likely it will be a very different conversation. Also, if I am a 65 year old African American woman and I speak about racism that is one thing. If I am a 30 year old caucasian man that is another. Both absolutely valid but the statements, ideas, emotions, questions will be coming from two people with profoundly different life experiences in relation to the topic and that will be obvious to anybody participating in the discussion.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the site! I think its a wonderful thing LitNet has so much diversity. It makes for even better, more diverse and interesting conversation to get as many perspectives as possible. it seems you come from an interesting background, what are your thoughts on the topic?




> Exactly...In this particular case of domestic dogma, culture cannot be viewed independently by the children, because even the grown mind persistently associates it with other patterns of behaviour and emotions, which are largely unpleasant, their origin being persuasion...This again proves that undervaluation of any culture, race is not an irreducible condition...Internalized racism is a manifestation of psychologically related disorders/this may be a strong word, but I cannot seem to find another/, both in the case you mentioned and false self-evaluation, the problem of internalized racism appears to be distant from any merits of race or culture or to be independent in itself, it is rather a distorted grimace of a some disunity, lurking in the personality...


That may be the case for internalized racism, but do you think a personality disorder also applies to when people externally lash their insecurities through racism? Many are racist because they actually fear, and express it as hate instead, those from other countries. Perhaps this same fear can stir internalized racism? I think your ideas on what triggers internalized racism are definetly applicable to most serious cases, but what about the issue to a less severe degree? Perhaps some persecute themselves in fear of others doing the same. As if , by agknowledging and adopting prejudice of others, they are preventing it. Sort of like "If you cant beat them, join them" philosophy. Of course i find this equally unhealthy and uneffective as if it stems from a psychological disorder but find it interesting how logic can alter when under fear.

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## Virgil

> *sigh*
> Alright, if you are told things many times over you just might start to believe them. sort of like conditioning.
> So if someone continually is attacked about their race, maybe they will start believing the racist things people say about them. So they will start feeling racist against themselves. External racism is racism thrust at you from other people, internal is when you feel racist about your own race.


Just a silly questioned dawned on me. How would you know that the racist thing was internalized or if it was there already?

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## brainstrain

The discussion after your original post really cleared up what you meant by "internalized racism" I think internal racism might describe it better, but hey, I didn't invent the word.

Anyway, I once saw some documentary about a man who went around visiting black schools at some point no long before/after Civil War (I don't really remember)

Anyway, he would show the students several dolls of varying shades (black/white) and ask which one they were most like. Every last black child those the White Dolls. There was some controversy afterwards, because all those blinded white people could not see how wrong that was...

This has really stuck with me, so I thought I should share it. It certainly shows how Internal Racism can taint an entire generation, an entire...Race, if you will.

So, basically, internal racims affects most profoundly children, who have never known anything else. Why would they think Black people were worth anything? As far as those children know they never have been and never will be worth anything.

Thank goodness those days are past...

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## Virgil

How does a black kid picking a white doll show racism? I don't follow?

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## IamMissingaLink

> How does a black kid picking a white doll show racism? I don't follow?


well, i think the point is, is that _every_ black child found the white doll preferable. It shows that they have taken on the predjudice against their own race by seeing white as the overwhelmingly superior choice.

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## dramasnot6

> Just a silly questioned dawned on me. How would you know that the racist thing was internalized or if it was there already?


What do you mean by already there? Like heridetary racism? Well eagle and i were discussing how those vulnerable to severe internal racism usually are insecure to begin with. I guess in that sense it was already there...but its the same when people go mad. It is normally not from scratch, there is often a psychological flaw that is triggered by an external event. Or did i misundertand your question?




> well, i think the point is, is that _every_ black child found the white doll preferable. It shows that they have taken on the predjudice against their own race by seeing white as the overwhelmingly superior choice.


Perhaps they could not be associating it with race though? Look how the color "black" is portrayed to kids. Black magic, black much more associated with villanous characters in kids books. And white ubiquitously represented in western society as pure and angelic. Cant really blame kids as racist, but easily influenced by the color bias theyre exposed to everyday. Of course,these influences may take effect for racism later on.

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## ghideon

:Frown:  


> Welcome to the site! I think its a wonderful thing LitNet has so much diversity. It makes for even better, more diverse and interesting conversation to get as many perspectives as possible. it seems you come from an interesting background, what are your thoughts on the topic?


I'm not sure how to respond to your post. I suppose part of my frustration is that I am not sure what to do here. I could write about how I am feeling right now...which is not too good. I could share my thoughts about internalized racism. I could write about what racism and internalized racism has meant in my life. Have I acted racist towards others? Have I seen how people of color are impacted by racism? I am just sick and tired of thought,thought, thought without some heart and some real clear connection from an idea or concept to lived experience. It just seems futile.
I have sat in jail cells for days and days and days. I have spent so many years on the street, hanging with the underclass that I now feel profoundly estranged from normative culture. Now folks can say that nobody is actually normal or whatever. But that is not really true. I mean most people work jobs 40-60 hours a week to pay rent, pay for food, bills, their childrens education and so on. When I turn on the tv and watch the weather report the meteirologist says something like "and now the weather for the work week." They are not talking to me or to the entire community I belong to. There is a profound feelings of not existing that goes along with this experience and countless others.
I have slept behind bushes for years and after a while the people who walk past you become "the others" just as I am seen as "the other" to them.
I mention this because it is difficult for me to participate in any type of normal form of discourse that is seen as regular in this culture. It's really like I am from some other nation or country. I have lived in a 3rd world nation for my adult life. I once told someone that its like we are all in some big body of water and a few people are swimming real fast and powerfully, most people are swimming without any real speed or force and a large group are doing the doggy paddle.
And then there are those who have drowned. They are not dead, I guess the regular laws of physics are on hold here. These folks live on the bottom. It is dark and cold and very dangerous. Nobody wants to live down here and that is why everybody above keeps on making some effort to simply "stay above water" (as the cliche goes).
But there is an interesting perspective that the drowned folks have. They can look up and see all the different movements of the men, women and children above them. The folks above can not see those below but the below can see the above.
From where I sit right now every white person in this society has blood on their hands. We have all been deeply, cruely, profoundly conditioned to fear, judge, pity,hate,patronize,idolize,sexualize,blame,scapeg oat,black people. Folks do not get it at all. Just because I may have read a bunch of radical literature and just because I have joined anti-racist organizations and just because I have a few black friends and just because I do not wear a white sheet and put flaming torches on the front lawns of black peoples home does not mean I am free of racism. Not at all. Not in the slightest.
I mean my God! Michael Richards spews out the nastiest racist rhetoric I have heard in a while and he says "No. I am not a racist" And folks accep hat! Then who is?
Folks want to know what racism is? It is each and every time you make a judgment about a black persons self based on how they act, what they have done, what they have not done...I can say that I saw a black woman sit in a park drinking a pint of brandy. That is a fact. I can say that I have seen many black people drinking booze in many different parks. That is a fact. But if I then go on to say that blacks are lazy, self-destructive addicts I am in very dangerous waters. I have gone from empirical objective facts to very subjective assesments of an individuals inner world/inner being and then I go further and make statements about an entire races character/being-ness. It is not that this is just a mistake as regards racism. It is a mistake anytime we do this to anyone ever.
That punk who shot some store owner and stole the money. You know what. That punk is a human. And he is every single bit as human as you or I or Ghandi or Whitman. Does he remind you of Ghandi? No. No damn way. He has been violent, abusive...But unless we actually meet him we have almost no idea who he is, what is going on and why he did what he did.

I am going to stop here cause I am exhausted, pissed off and...well...can't rant and write and stay online forever...
The only way I have survived all these years is by what I believe about myself, the world and all other people. And I believe that saying we are all human is not enough. We also need to say that we are all, thus, humane. The tragedy, sadness, anger we all feel is, I believe, because we do know this deep down and the chasm between what we know to be true and how the world looks and operates is deep as the void of voids and that is what hurts. What hurts is the countless miles that exist between the beauty of a sunrise as you lie down on a hill and feel the damp earth versus the 50 Iraqis killed in one bombing. They are all gone. Forever. And the infinity of the horizon is also the infinity of their death, of their eternal non existance. The voices gone. The texture of an old mans skin. Gone. The cry of joy from a baby girl smelling a rose for the first time. Gone. Not gone because of nature. Not gone slowly and gently like a soft whisper between lovers. No. Gone from a metal bomb made to kill, made to end, made to hurt, made to maim, made to extinguish that which is most dear. They are gone because someone wanted them gone, wanted them dead. And I can not help, as I write these words, but notice the compassion I feel for both the killed and the killer. When I wrote the words "wanted them dead" I felt a terror. To want to kill life, how tortured a sentiment, how bleak a desire.
I have splashed in the salt water of Tel Aviv, the waters of my homeland and looked forward to each cool gentle wave as it approached me. The chill, the taste, the steady deliberate never ending nature coupled with the spontanaiety of the wave as it broke over me, kissed me, licked me like a large dog. Yes, yes, let this never end, let me splash like a boy forever.
I had no place to go. I was in Israel but I had run out of money. I knew nobody. The land that I had wanted to fall in love with was full of bile,puss and acid hatred.
How could this be? How could there be such joy in this world and such pain. 
How can the salt water taste so sweet? Was it a dream? It does not matter. The past is over I tell myself "it does not matter" I tell myself...

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## dramasnot6

Perhaps some of us are diverting the subject slightly....

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## Eagleheart

> That may be the case for internalized racism, but do you think a personality disorder also applies to when people externally lash their insecurities through racism? Many are racist because they actually fear, and express it as hate instead, those from other countries. Perhaps this same fear can stir internalized racism? I think your ideas on what triggers internalized racism are definetly applicable to most serious cases, but what about the issue to a less severe degree? Perhaps some persecute themselves in fear of others doing the same. As if , by agknowledging and adopting prejudice of others, they are preventing it. Sort of like "If you cant beat them, join them" philosophy. Of course i find this equally unhealthy and uneffective as if it stems from a psychological disorder but find it interesting how logic can alter when under fear.


Really strong observations, Drame...But beyond a direct relationship between an external racist oppressor and an individual persuaded in self-depreciation, do you give an assent to a proposition in which the victim of internalized racism employs this state, so as to control...I mean something of the psychology of the victim: Accepting your weakness you expect condescension from those sympathetic/clearly not the oppressors but the others/...I really do not believe this to have any mass occurence or to be a common case in internalized racism, but perhaps internalized racism can be used not only against oppressors, but also in an attempt to control...In this particular case, in which race and culture are involved I find it hard to believe however...As we were talking of special cases, I thought I might bring it to light...
ghideon, I personally appreciate your sharing all these valuable thoughts...It is my belief that one can never know whether a chance talk with a stranger on a bench will not be a saved life...One never knows whether the person beside him/her does not think of suicide for example and a few nice words will not make a difference or a shared experience help a searching soul and so on...

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## Poetess

*Drama I meant Plants***

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## dramasnot6

> *Drama I meant Plants***


OH, lol, now THAT makes sense : :Biggrin:   :Thumbs Up: 




> Really strong observations, Drame...But beyond a direct relationship between an external racist oppressor and an individual persuaded in self-depreciation, do you give an assent to a proposition in which the victim of internalized racism employs this state, so as to control...I mean something of the psychology of the victim: Accepting your weakness you expect condescension from those sympathetic/clearly not the oppressors but the others/...I really do not believe this to have any mass occurence or to be a common case in internalized racism, but perhaps internalized racism can be used not only against oppressors, but also in an attempt to control...In this particular case, in which race and culture are involved I find it hard to believe however...As we were talking of special cases, I thought I might bring it to light...


Yes, quite what i was getting at. When i mentioned fear i also meant the fear of not being acceptance, being shunned. Internalized racism can be a technique to draw away from the self, through self-hate, that is causing you fear. Sort of a direct approach to the problem, simply attempting to dilute or dispose of it rather then finding real solutions to the issue. Possibly a bit of cognitive dissonance comes to play too...

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## jon1jt

> What does it mean to you? How do you think it is created? Is it more of a product of personal upbringing or societal belief? Can people recover from it? Who experiences it most? 
> 
> What do you think?


there's a famous US Supreme Court decision (Bakke v. US?) where a justice coined the term, "reverse discrimination", which was used to describe white college applicants as the object of an unfair admissions process that had set aside a certain number of seats for blacks with lower scores (i.e. quota system). in a footnote, one of the dissenting justices wrote: "Discrimination is discrimation, period." in other words, let's knock off this idea that discrimination flows "one way" - from white to black, as 'reverse discrimination flows from black to white. a shrewd conceptualization used very subtly to assign blame (in the sense of whites being the progenitor of racism). gimme a break.

the topic here is "internalized racism" - another interesting term, i wonder where you got it. the fact is, racism exists, so what's the difference whether racism is internal or external? the world doesn't go on "out there" nor does life go on "in here"---human beings comprise the social milieu with racism defined as a "collective condition" without the need then for bifurcated boundaries, don't you think? i suppose this sort of thinking would do away with the need for all the lovely psychologists in the world! ...not that this here philosopher has anything against psychologists or anything.  :Smile:

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## ghideon

> Perhaps some of us are diverting the subject slightly....


Really? I want to ask you something dramasnot...and I ask this for real, not rhetorically. After reading my last post do you have a better idea of what "internalized racism" means to me?

Your original post asked readers to answer the question "what does internalized racism mean to you?"

It means the world to me dramasnot. Literally.

White people are a minority? Yes. That is if you look at the world population there are billions and billions of human beings with non-white skin versus a profoundly smaller group who do have white skin.

Now lets go to the USA for a minute. 300 million men,women, children. Now there are more white people then blacks and there are more white people then asian people but when you simply look at how many caucasian people there are versus people of color, once again those with white skin are the minority.

I will go out on a limb here and say that I do not care deeply about racism because I hate what it has done to people of color. No. I am no more of a saint then the next Joe and I generally think about those things that will improve my life in some way and I put those considerations in front of the condition of other peoples lives.

If there were this huge circle and inside this circle there was a real small dot...that dot would represent whites vs other races. And yet I still seem to wake up each day to a white world. How can this be? What forces are important to understand inorder to explain this bizzare dyanmic.

Well...there are many many forces at work. But to get personal, if I live inside that small dot then how come I am not acutely aware of my difference? Why do I still wake up and feel as if my race represents the norm? That my race represents the type of culture that is the sign of health?
We(white folk that is)are dots and we have been lied to and told that we are, actually, huge,the size of planets.

My passion is not really about the economic inequalities or some deep philosophical conern about power and its use. No. I simply want to be. White people are lied to and the lies never rest. And it is whites who suffer for this. Folks want to talk about isolation? OK...here is some isolation for you...how does a very very small group manage to create a way of life that somehow denies at each and every single moment of each day the absolute, objective fact that it is we who are terribly, beyond words, lost,confused,and so alone that we must not even face the alienation we experience because to do so would be to admit the denial so vital to our supposed sanity. We live in little little boxes and tell ourselves that it is we who are ok. And as long as we stay in those white culture boxes we generally feel ok and are told we are just fine. All the time in the shadow of a mountain.

The boxes suck. The lies suck. The alienation sucks. The guilt and shame and self-hatred inside of Me...sucks. If the world is not really all that white then I want to be able to embrace the world and feel safe, understood, accepted....but that is not the case. I can not actually accept the true nature of the world because...well....it probabaly scares the sh*% out of me and at least in terms of that stark terror I am most certainly not alone.

Old School remember? Rap back in the day. Fear Of A Black Planet? Now that was a title I will not forget. :Crash:

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## Madhuri

These are some interesting posts, and I might have to say something about this issue. I am very dark myself and I know how society makes such people believe that that is definitely a fault. I just need to gather my thoughts.

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## jon1jt

> Really? I want to ask you something dramasnot...and I ask this for real, not rhetorically. After reading my last post do you have a better idea of what "internalized racism" means to me?
> 
> Your original post asked readers to answer the question "what does internalized racism mean to you?"
> 
> It means the world to me dramasnot. Literally.
> 
> *White people are a minority?* Yes. That is if you look at the world population there are billions and billions of human beings with non-white skin versus a profoundly smaller group who do have white skin.
> 
> Now lets go to the USA for a minute. 300 million men,women, children. Now there are more white people then blacks and there are more white people then asian people but when you simply look at how many caucasian people there are versus people of color, once again those with white skin are the minority.
> ...


the above view is a classic case of internal racism.  :Biggrin:  i've heard this "white people are minority" argument that is voiced regularly on militant black stations as a call to galvanize forces that it's time for the "majority" to assume rightful control, that whites have fooled the "majority" for far too long. your little "boxes" speech smacks of racism - however cleverly candy coated - suggesting a white power structure. but no such structure exists, it's all in your little box head. 

embrace the world and feel safe because nobody's stopping you. get over it.




> These are some interesting posts, and I might have to say something about this issue. I am very dark myself and I* know how society makes such people believe that that is definitely a fault*. I just need to gather my thoughts.



this is more internal racism or victimization externalized.

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## Virgil

> What do you mean by already there? Like heridetary racism? Well eagle and i were discussing how those vulnerable to severe internal racism usually are insecure to begin with. I guess in that sense it was already there...but its the same when people go mad. It is normally not from scratch, there is often a psychological flaw that is triggered by an external event. Or did i misundertand your question?


What I meant was that certain prejudices might actually be true for a given individual. To give an example. I'm Italian-American. Many people seem to think that a large number of Italian-Americans are involved in organized crime. Now I would say that 99% or more of Italian-Americans are not involved in organized crime. But what about that 1% that may actually be in the mafia. Was it because it was internalized racism? 

Look I hate racism. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. But something else I hate is psychobabble. The idea that we can understand how a person became that person. There are people who show signs of internalized racism and there are people with the same background who do not. I don't know what this internalized racism really means.

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## brainstrain

> well, i think the point is, is that _every_ black child found the white doll preferable. It shows that they have taken on the predjudice against their own race by seeing white as the overwhelmingly superior choice.


Thank you for explaining. I probably could've made it a bit more clear, I really tend to get off topic on forums...

Never in english, thankfully, I get 60s in grammar and 100s in writing...it all balances out  :Thumbs Up:  

In case there is still any confusion, the children were asked which doll were THEY most similar too. These children were so tainted by internal racism that they chose the white dolls out of shame for being black.

I think. I saw that documentary a long time ago, my interpratation could be wrong...

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## Virgil

> In case there is still any confusion, the children were asked which doll were THEY most similar too. These children were so tainted by internal racism that they chose to white dolls out of shame for being black.


I don't understand this exactly. Perhaps you are not remembering what they were asked precisely. I would agree that this is internalized racism if they were asked which doll is better, or something to that effect, and they picked the white one.

But if they were asked which they were most simmilar too, then I would deduce the following possibilities:
(a) They were delusional since clearly the skin color was different
(b) They associated their education with white people, which in the mid 19th century is a perfectly logical association since only white people went to school.

Neither (a) or (b) strike me as internalized racism.

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## brainstrain

> What I meant was that certain prejudices might actually be true for a given individual. To give an example. I'm Italian-American. Many people seem to think that a large number of Italian-Americans are involved in organized crime. Now I would say that 99% or more of Italian-Americans are not involved in organized crime. But what about that 1% that may actually be in the mafia. Was it because it was internalized racism? 
> 
> Look I hate racism. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. But something else I hate is psychobabble. The idea that we can understand how a person became that person. There are people who show signs of internalized racism and there are people with the same background who do not. I don't know what this internalized racism really means.


I believe that it is possible to determine factors that contributed to a person become who he/she is. Like for me, I know that being raised in an absurbley conservative church, being socially shunned for my acne, and having a tendency to inadvertantley finding major flaws in well-established systems have contributed to the quirky, unbalanced person I am.

But the italian/mafia thing is not quite comparable. For one, there are not many italians anymore. From what I heard, the country itself has a negative birthrate (more people are dieing than being born). Secondly, not everyone thinks that all italians are in the mafia. Many do, but it is easily overcome with some quick stereotype bashing.

Internal Racims for African Americans means that EVERYONE thought they were inferior. The few people that recognized this as disgusting were ignored and thought to be anti-religious (after all, god encourged the slavery of blacks, according to churchs of that time). After centuries of nothing but hate and exile, this noble Race began to think that themselves.

Internal Racims means that the Racim against a certain Race (namely blacks) is so widespread that the people being...Racized? begin to hate themselves as well.

I hope I cleared it up for you, if not, I had fun writing it (and inventing a new word "Racized").

note-AUGH i'm sorry, every Racim I typed was plural. I know it isn't supposed to have an 'S' don't worry...

note-I agree that it isn't a clear example, and the circumstances with the dolls might've been different. As I said, it was several years ago that I saw this documentary

last noe-if this is completley off base, I apologize. I'm new to the forums, and I am not used to being surronded by people more mature than I am. It's very nice, but It'll take some getting used to.

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## Virgil

Nice word, brainstrain. "Racized!"  :Thumbs Up:   :Wink:  

I still don't believe we can understand how a person is made up. Life is way too complex to reduce it to an equation. You're a teenager. Your are in a point in your life where you are very sensitive to social pressures. But it will not always be that way. As one ages, those kind of things get minimized. When I think of things that might make someone feel inferior, I think of Helen Keller, who must have felt all sorts of things and had the right to do so. But she didn't let it affect her. I can also pick all sorts of African-Americans who in a time of racism did not feel inferior. Every single human being has something that makes them feel inferior. Some move on and some don't. I question with those that don't whether it was any single thing or people use it as an excuse. Let's look at the converse. Are you saying that there are no white people who feel inferior?

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## jon1jt

> Nice word, brainstrain. "Racized!"   
> Some move on and some don't. I question with those that don't whether it was any single thing or people use it as an excuse. Let's look at the converse. Are you saying that there are no white people who feel inferior?



of course some white people feel inferior, they just don't have a history of systematized oppression to point to as an excuse for their own inadequacies or failures in life. the truly outrageous in this category of white inferiority may join a neo-nazi or paramilitary group as an outlet of their rage. others with less hostile an agenda will sign up with Greenpeace or throw pies at bill gates.  :Biggrin:  but most recognize that life isn't always fair and don't whine about it.

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## brainstrain

Thank you thank you, word invention is one of my favorite activities. Also word mispronuciation...who ever heard of a silent 'b' *subtle*? Heh, anyway...

Yes, of course, there many white people who feel inferior. Today, i'm sure many white people feel inferior to succesful african americans. But in the time period which I assume we are reffering, that was not the case at all.

Even if a white man was jealous of a blacks mans looks, or strength, or family, he was not inferior. He would whip him, or sell him, or leave him somewhere to die.

In that horrible society, for a white man to feel inferior to a black man would be like a Bald Eagle feeling inferior to a pigeon. Absurd.

I, of course, did not live in that time period so I cannot accuratley say what did or did not happen. But it would make sense that few, if any, white men felt inferior to blacks.

And, on your first point. You are totally correct, I could never assume to say that life could be determined in an equation. I was just saying that we can guess at many of its main factors, and attempt to manipulate them if we are not going in a way that is pleasing. Or safe. The job of a psychiatrist, I believe, is to help us determind those main factors.

random note-if you watch the show Numb3rs you'd be suprised what can be turned into an eqations. obviously the math they do on the show isn't real, but it is based on mathmatical fact.




> others with less hostile an agenda will sign up with Greenpeace or throw pies at bill gates.  but most recognize that life isn't always fair and don't whine about it.


Do people really throw pies at Bill Gates? That dude with the fake hair, donald trump, would be a much better canidate.

It took me a long time to come to terms with the fact that life isn't fair...Even now i have trouble with it. This was caused by the principle of balance by which i try to live my life. To me, if something is fair than its balanced.

I had a whiney phase too...my parents could tell you AAALL about that  :Biggrin:  

I have to go have a snack before church begins again, its been nice discussing with you Virgil  :Smile:  

Happy Holidays! I hope they bring you as much joy as I anticipate mine will...

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## jon1jt

> Do people really throw pies at Bill Gates? That dude with the fake hair, donald trump, would be a much better canidate.
> 
> It took me a long time to come to terms with the fact that life isn't fair...Even now i have trouble with it. This was caused by the principle of balance by which i try to live my life. To me, if something is fair than its balanced.
> 
> I had a whiney phase too...my parents could tell you AAALL about that


 :FRlol:  it's very true about Bill Gates being pelted with pies---some organizations were bent on blaming him for many of the economic/social problems associated with globalization (rolling my eyes).

of course whites have whiney phases, but we just don't blame another race for problems that cause our whining (i.e. internal racism)  :Biggrin:

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## dramasnot6

> Really? I want to ask you something dramasnot...and I ask this for real, not rhetorically. After reading my last post do you have a better idea of what "internalized racism" means to me?
> 
> Your original post asked readers to answer the question "what does internalized racism mean to you?"
> 
> It means the world to me dramasnot. Literally.
> 
> White people are a minority? Yes. That is if you look at the world population there are billions and billions of human beings with non-white skin versus a profoundly smaller group who do have white skin.
> 
> Now lets go to the USA for a minute. 300 million men,women, children. Now there are more white people then blacks and there are more white people then asian people but when you simply look at how many caucasian people there are versus people of color, once again those with white skin are the minority.
> ...



Oh, i really didnt mean to offend ghideon. Your thoughts on racism in your last post were very interesting. Just at the end you asked many more broad philosophical questions that were a bit off the topic. Im glad to hear all your thoughts though, theyve made a great contribution.  :Smile:

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## ghideon

Was doing some research on the term "racism" and "oppression" using wikipedia and the onlinedictionary and I thought I would share a bit of what I have discovered.

First of all the first definition of Racism is the prejudice that members of one race are inherently superior to members of another race.

Then I looked up prejudice and found out that it essentially means an unreasonable judgment or opinion without actual knowledge or any real examination of the objective facts. It comes from the verb to prejudge meaning to judge before a full hearing or investigation.

I will assert, based on my participation in this forum, that there have been many examples of prejudice. I have noticed that in repeated instances individuals, including myself, will state opinions as if they were objective facts. People seem more inclined to just state a belief, opinion, perspective or intense emotion and not terribly inclined to provide the basis for such statements. One can discuss specific experiences an individual has gone through as the foundation for a belief or opinion. In that case the more specific the connection made between the actual experience and the belief/opinion that followed the bettter.
A writer here can also build their opinions on a foundation of other sources of information and analysis such as books,articles, statements of others and in this case the more reliable the source then the more foundation one has for the belief.

Do folks by and large agree with the above?


If you are still reading...what follows are some observations, perspectives I have articulated...but am repeating in a more step by step manner. That is, I am attempting to follow my own above advise. 

I stated that there are far more people of color in the world then there are whites. That is an objective fact. I stated that this is also the case in the United States. That is also a fact. 
I then went on to state a particular perspective in relation to these facts. That perspective was that this quantitative fact is not reflected in the qualitative power dynamics. Whites have, in many places and during many eras in history, yielded great economic, political, legal, and plain old brute power over peoples of color. I would assert that this is pretty close to an objective fact. 

Certainly it would be hard to argue that the above fact is wrong. Does anybody dispute my assertion as regards the power white people have had in relation to colored people?


This seems important to me because there is, more then likely, an important psychological aspect to this. What internal dyanmics are at play in an oppressive situation where a smaller group dehumanizes a much larger group of human beings?

Before I go on any further I will simply say this...obviously I am building an argument. And the argument is essentially that when I examine my own emotions and also look at the experiences I have had I have concluded that a great deal of very painful feelings are connected to the above description of racism. The premise that an oppressor is dehumanized in the process of oppression is not a novel premise by any stretch. It has been made countless times by many authorities. I am simply trying to state that I experience it as true in my life. When I think about the relationships I have had and continue to have with other white people I also conclude that it is true. That other white people are profoundly dehumanized in their role as oppressors. 

I will stop and simply ask...if someone does not agree with the above...do they believe that my facts are wrong or my conclusions? One person replied that there "is no white power structure" that it is "all in my head." Well, ok. As far as there being "no white power structure" I would ask for some evidence. I can fill ten pages with data that would most certainly suggest a structure, a set of laws, rules, codes of behavior and institutional relations that is run by white people and run primarily for the interests of white people. Anybody disagree?

Anbody who does not believe there is a "white power structure" is incorrect. I believe that such an entity exists in reality. And I do not have a problem proving it. It simply frustrates me that I should have to. But if needed I am more then willing.

 :Crash:

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## jon1jt

> Was doing some research on the term "racism" and "oppression" using wikipedia and the onlinedictionary and I thought I would share a bit of what I have discovered.
> 
> First of all the first definition of Racism is the prejudice that members of one race are inherently superior to members of another race.
> 
> Then I looked up prejudice and found out that it essentially means an unreasonable judgment or opinion without actual knowledge or any real examination of the objective facts. It comes from the verb to prejudge meaning to judge before a full hearing or investigation.
> 
> I will assert, based on my participation in this forum, that there have been many examples of prejudice. I have noticed that in repeated instances individuals, including myself, will state opinions as if they were objective facts. People seem more inclined to just state a belief, opinion, perspective or intense emotion and not terribly inclined to provide the basis for such statements. One can discuss specific experiences an individual has gone through as the foundation for a belief or opinion. In that case the more specific the connection made between the actual experience and the belief/opinion that followed the bettter.
> A writer here can also build their opinions on a foundation of other sources of information and analysis such as books,articles, statements of others and in this case the more reliable the source then the more foundation one has for the belief.
> 
> ...


i can't believe you have the audacity to call people prejudice in this forum when your ideas are full of nonsensical racism---you're under the spell of internal racism. 

i knew you were going after whites in your previous post. whites don't owe you empirical evidence because the last i checked we're not on trial, and people who play into this fuel the fire of absurdity, which leads to legitimizing quota systems and affirmative action programs and all these other practices that put whites at a grave disadvantage. we shouldn't be punished for the actions of our ancestors. 

quick story:
there's a multicultural neighborhood with a majority of whites nearby with a library with an all-black and -hispanic staff. just coincidence, right? well i have a (white male) friend who was interviewed and later turned down for a job there. i found out that the director is an old school black guy who has been there for forty years. my friend didn't run and press charges against him for discriminatory hiring even though he went on to hire a guy who is black and LESS qualified. No, my friend just shrugged it off and wound up with a better-paying job. 

i expect you next to whine about the "prison industrial complex" and how blacks go to jail for drug-related offenses disporportionately to whites even though whites 'in the suburbs' consume far more drugs. i love the argument that blacks in jail for drugs are innocent! some whites do get busted when they go into major cities where they're sold. but last i checked there were plenty of whites in jail too for dealing in the suburbs. or how's about the crazy idea of rising gang violence being attributed to gun manufacturers and the gun lobby (rolling my eyes).

you're building an argument. are you sure?

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## genoveva

> suggesting a white power structure. but no such structure exists, it's all in your little box head.


There is a hierarchy of power in this world. If you are white, heterosexual, physically abled, or a man, you are considered privileged. If you have one of these traits, you move up on the hierarchy of power.  :Sick:

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## Scheherazade

A gentle reminder for all:

*We are here to discuss ideas, not individuals who are posting them. Any personal / off-topics comments are likely to be deleted with or without any further notice.*

Merry Christmas to one and all!  :Smile:

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## dramasnot6

Thank you Scher, this is true. Personal experiences are a nice contribution but please try to keep them relevant and used as examples to support a theory or idea.

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## ghideon

> can't believe you have the audacity to call people prejudice in this forum when your ideas are full of nonsensical racism---you're under the spell of internal racism


1. I did not "call people prejudiced" I stated that, from my experience, there have been numerous examples of prejudice. In other words, I do not believe anybody here "is a prejudiced person" but that just about all of us get sloppy, make mistakes, make errors in logic, allow our emotions to distort our reason. I am guilty of it and I stated that as well. Do you deny this? I am not asking you if you think it is a worthy question or if I have no right to ask it but simply if you agree that we all make significant mistakes in terms of communicating our thoughts clearly and with logic and respect.





> i knew you were going after whites in your previous post. whites don't owe you empirical evidence because the last i checked we're not on trial


2. I do not know what so say in terms of "going after whites." There are white people who I have loved deeply, my family, some of my closest friends, past teachers and mentors and many that I miss deeply as well. There are many white human beings that I have great respect for from Shakespeare to Whitman to John Lennon. And I am also very angry at what people who share the same skin shade as me have done in the past and continue to do in the present. It is hard for me to feel and express true pride in myself when I know the amount of violence, death, and missery white people have caused people of color from Latin America to South Africa to India to the United States.
Now I also want to say that I do not see white people as any better then anybody NOr do I see white people as, in any way, inherently worse. In the bottom line reality we all are members of one very large class that being human beings. And for me, as I have written before, the tragedy is how true this is and that history simply reflects that human beings have had a very hard time living this truth...basing our actions, choices and decisions on our shared humanity. And white people are certainly not the only group to have had a long history of oppression over another group.

No. White people are not on trial. Nobody here is. But the rules that guide the conduct of trials are also very deeply reflective of Western concepts and practices of how truth is investigated, determined...how evidence is developed...how facts are included in an argument versus opinions. My guess is that the trial problem here is about guilt. I try my best to not deal with blame or guilt. Things happened. Other things happened after that. Now we are in a certain situation that needs to be dealt with. It is vital to determine cause and effect. What forces caused slavery and what effect did slavery have on society? for example. If I say that actions you did resulted in an old persons death...if you agreed with me then you would probably feel profound guilt. But that feeling is entirely distinct from a simple determination of cause/causes. You may have caused something but are you then to be forever cast as "GUILTY" I would hope not.
And hey...don't trials make great drama? 




> people who play into this fuel the fire of absurdity, which leads to legitimizing quota systems and affirmative action programs and all these other practices that put whites at a grave disadvantage. we shouldn't be punished for the actions of our ancestors.


3. I do not believe I am playing into some "fuel the fire of absurdity." I do not see how my points could be considered even remotely absurd. There are many reasonable critiques, challenges, points of contention to what I have stated previously but saying absurd...it just seems that if I do, in fact, have a "fire" going on you do as well. Certainly I feel plenty of heat from your post.




> quick story:
> there's a multicultural neighborhood with a majority of whites nearby with a library with an all-black and -hispanic staff. just coincidence, right?


ok. please slow down here for a minute. I see a diverse neighborhood...but no details...I assume it is primarily black and hispanic.
Now...there is another community nearby that is very much a white neighborhood...yes?

I do not really know which area the library is in...the multicultural one or the white one? But that might not be important.

well i have a (white male) friend who was interviewed and later turned down for a job there. i found out that the director is an old school black guy who has been there for forty years. my friend didn't run and press charges against him for discriminatory hiring even though he went on to hire a guy who is black and LESS qualified.

4. Look. I am not going to just pretend that your friend or other white working class people have easy lives or even fair ones. I am white and my life has certainly not been too easy. I also see so much hardship just across the board amongst all working people regardless of their skin color. And trust me, I have many times felt rage, fear, worry...because of decisions and acts people of color have taken in relation to me. I have been mugged and assaulted a bunch of times. I have been told I was going to die a bunch of times. All of these acts done by black people.

The whole issue of Afirmative Action is a complex one. Is it moral? Does it work? Are there other things this society can do to make sure that everyone has the same opportunity to employment, housing, education...And what are the best ways to resolve past injustices in terms of the present? I do not have answers to those questions nor is this the right place or time to get into those issues. But I do not think your points should be ignored nor should the legitimate concerns of other people be ignored. There are many many examples of young people of color who were able to go on and make great progress in their lives as a result of affirmative action and the educational and career doors that law opened. 




> i expect you next to whine about the "prison industrial complex" and how blacks go to jail for drug-related offenses disporportionately to whites even though whites 'in the suburbs' consume far more drugs. i love the argument that blacks in jail for drugs are innocent! some whites do get busted when they go into major cities where they're sold. but last i checked there were plenty of whites in jail too for dealing in the suburbs. or how's about the crazy idea of rising gang violence being attributed to gun manufacturers and the gun lobby (rolling my eyes).



5. Yes I have many thoughts about the Prison Industrial System but they are not really the ones you have put in my mouth. This is another very important but complicated topic and I will simply suggest that you do not put me into that nice liberal lefty protest protest box you think I am a member of.  Notice that I did not name Chomsky or Marx or Lennin or even Howard Zinn amongst the white people I respect the most. I am very troubled with many aspects of the "Left." I often feel like calling all the protests rather pathetic. I am sick and tired of group think, yes I am, suprise,suprise. And I am fed up with wishy washy upper middle class liberals writing checks to a few non-profits and thinking that they are dedicated to deep changes.

You are probably not who I would guess you are. I am not who you think I am. 

But I am glad to have opened up some dialouge here.





> you're building an argument. are you sure?


These days I actually am not sure of very much. :Wink:  

I could very well be guilty of building a poor argument, a weak argument, a simplistic argument...but does my post meet the conditions of being an "argument"...probably. :Smile:

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## jon1jt

> There is a hierarchy of power in this world. If you are white, heterosexual, physically abled, or a man, you are considered privileged. If you have one of these traits, you move up on the hierarchy of power.


oh please! how the hell is a white guy privileged exactly? i have two friends - both white - one has a masters and is collecting unemployment benefits because he got laid off recently as an engineer. the other works construction and has sat in the union hall every morning the past two months unassigned and is living on borrowed money. but they're not whining or spinning theories about a black or latino power structure taking over the world. 

this poster is yet another example of internal racism. 

admit it: you think affirmative action is a "complex" subject matter too.  :Sick:   :Sick: 

your local college is offering plenty more of those courses this spring in "women's studies" and "cultural history". (vomit)




> 1. I did not "call people prejudiced" I stated that, from my experience, there have been numerous examples of prejudice. In other words, I do not believe anybody here "is a prejudiced person" but that just about all of us get sloppy, make mistakes, make errors in logic, allow our emotions to distort our reason. I am guilty of it and I stated that as well. Do you deny this? I am not asking you if you think it is a worthy question or if I have no right to ask it but simply if you agree that we all make significant mistakes in terms of communicating our thoughts clearly and with logic and respect.



i think most people are quite respectful and sensitive to others in this forum, particularly when it comes to racial differences. i don't know who you're talking about because i have not seen that sort of insensitivity, not once. 




> I do not know what so say in terms of "going after whites." There are white people who I have loved deeply, my family, some of my closest friends, past teachers and mentors and many that I miss deeply as well. There are many white human beings that I have great respect for from Shakespeare to Whitman to John Lennon. And I am also very angry at what people who share the same skin shade as me have done in the past and continue to do in the present. It is hard for me to feel and express true pride in myself when I know the amount of violence, death, and missery *white people have caused* people of color from Latin America to South Africa to India to the United States.


which white people do you mean? post-colonial India? last i checked apartheid was over in S. Africa. do you mean latin america, 1980s? or are you referring to American occupation of Cuba, guam? philippines? or british/euro imperialism of africa? yeah yeah i know the history---the fact is, the age of imperialism is long over, didn't you know? so you need to get over it. 




> Now I also want to say that I do not see white people as any better then anybody NOr do I see white people as, in any way, inherently worse. In the bottom line reality we all are members of one very large class that being human beings. And for me, as I have written before, the tragedy is how true this is and that history simply reflects that human beings have had a very hard time living this truth...basing our actions, choices and decisions on our shared humanity. And white people are certainly not the only group to have had a long history of oppression over another group.


my brother, we actually agree!  :Smile: 




> White people are not on trial. Nobody here is. But the rules that guide the conduct of trials are also very deeply reflective of Western concepts and practices of how truth is investigated, determined...how evidence is developed...how facts are included in an argument versus opinions. My guess is that the trial problem here is about guilt.


look, that's why the American founders stated in the Declaration of Independence, "In Order To Form A More Perfect Union" ---the humble recognition that human beings are imperfect as the governments they create. consider the fairly recent creation of the International Criminal Court; the tribunal that sentenced Saddam; and earlier the Universal Declaration of Human Rights which begins:

"Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world..."

imperfect? sure. but institutions are changing with the times and i'm positive about what the future holds for human rights. small steps. i'm proud how far America has progressed--it's a great country and i wouldn't live anywhere else. 




> I do not believe I am playing into some "fuel the fire of absurdity." I do not see how my points could be considered even remotely absurd. There are many reasonable critiques, challenges, points of contention to what I have stated previously but saying absurd...it just seems that if I do, in fact, have a "fire" going on you do as well. Certainly I feel plenty of heat from your post.


you feel heat from me because you tacitly insult white people rather than carefully consider who exactly to blame. 




> ok. please slow down here for a minute. I see a diverse neighborhood...but no details...I assume it is primarily black and hispanic.
> Now...there is another community nearby that is very much a white neighborhood...yes? I do not really know which area the library is in...the multicultural one or the white one? But that might not be important.


i was referring to the Montclair Public Library in NJ, which is a diverse community but still has a majority of whites living there. and the library does not represent that reality, at all. 





> The whole issue of Afirmative Action is a complex one. Is it moral? Does it work? Are there other things this society can do to make sure that everyone has the same opportunity to employment, housing, education...And what are the best ways to resolve past injustices in terms of the present? I do not have answers to those questions nor is this the right place or time to get into those issues. But I do not think your points should be ignored nor should the legitimate concerns of other people be ignored. [B]There are many many examples of young people of color who were able to go on and make great progress in their lives as a result of affirmative action and the educational and career doors that law opened.


Affirmative action is not complex, it discriminates against whites because of their skin color. it's no different than a policy that provides preferential treatment for eye color. the end. 

you're right that many people of color profited from affirmative action, but at what cost to whites who deserved the seat based on merit? they are silent voices unaccounted for when you and others point to the successes of affirmative action. remember: for every success some qualified white person was denied that same opporunity; and that pisses me off, and it ought to piss you off too. 





> 5. Yes I have many thoughts about the Prison Industrial System but they are not really the ones you have put in my mouth. This is another very important but complicated topic and I will simply suggest that you do not put me into that nice liberal lefty protest protest box you think I am a member of. Notice that I did not name Chomsky or Marx or Lennin or even Howard Zinn amongst the white people I respect the most. I am very troubled with many aspects of the "Left." I often feel like calling all the protests rather pathetic. I am sick and tired of group think, yes I am, suprise,suprise. And I am fed up with wishy washy upper middle class liberals writing checks to a few non-profits and thinking that they are dedicated to deep changes.


we have a lot of wishy washy liberals on the east coast here - manhattan snobs with their prepared opinions waving banners and attending conferences at Columbia and NYU debating globalizations and their "The World is Flat" babble. just don't ask them a real history question because they're too busy reading Thomas Friedman and other pseudo-intellectuals





> These days I actually am not sure of very much.


advice: stop being wishy washy about your own belief system. it's okay to have formed opinions and values and to set them forward. people will criticize them; you may even be executed like they did saint socrates; but, at least you'll have believed in something important, good, just, real.  :Biggrin: 

...............And i too enjoyed this discussion, hideon. have a great Christmas! (wait...can i still say Christmas or is it Happy Holidays?...good gawd, just kidding with cha!)

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## Uzziel

> of course some white people feel inferior, they just don't have a history of systematized oppression to point to as an excuse for their own inadequacies or failures in life. the truly outrageous in this category of white inferiority may join a neo-nazi or paramilitary group as an outlet of their rage. others with less hostile an agenda will sign up with Greenpeace or throw pies at bill gates.  but most recognize that life isn't always fair and don't whine about it.


as i can see it from here, whites are the most powerful people, i wonder if they actually feel that, they are indeed most powerful and influential than any ther races..... wonder why is that?

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## dramasnot6

well, it depends on what culture we are discussing. they are not dominant globally.

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## Virgil

> of course some white people feel inferior, they just don't have a history of systematized oppression to point to as an excuse for their own inadequacies or failures in life.


Oh I agree. I don't want to be misconstrued that I'm saying that institutionalized racism did not occur. Whether it still occurs is a political debate that we can't take on here. 




> Yes, of course, there many white people who feel inferior. Today, i'm sure many white people feel inferior to succesful african americans. But in the time period which I assume we are reffering, that was not the case at all.


When I was referring to the possiblity that their are whites who might feel inferior, I was not suggesting inferior to blacks or any group. I was just saying that there are people who naturally for whatever (experience or inherent or experience that has nothing to do with race) feel inferior. That was why I balked at the concept of internalized racism. Look I imagine that some inernalized racism occurs, but a well adjusted person will have that offset. At least I think so. That's psychobabble coming out of me too.  :Wink:  




> the truly outrageous in this category of white inferiority may join a neo-nazi or paramilitary group as an outlet of their rage. others with less hostile an agenda will sign up with Greenpeace or throw pies at bill gates.  but most recognize that life isn't always fair and don't whine about it.


God, I can't even begin to understand those types. Several things are going on there: hatred, passion, willingness to take things to the extreme.

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## jon1jt

Merry Christmas y'all! and hey Virgil, nice to see ya in here finally! geez i could use your expertise ya know?!!  :Smile: 




> well, it depends on what culture we are discussing. they are not dominant globally.


that's a great point dramas. 

to answer uzziel's question, i think european power had its roots in a global imperialism that started with Great Britain, Italy, France, and so on. if you really want you can go all the way back to Ancient Greek empire, and the Ancient Romans were once upon a time masters of the universe. 

Consider the reality that America was a small player on the global stage: Pres. Thomas Jefferson couldn't even deal with the piracy problem given our lack of a navy. you could probably trace the true birthplace of american imperialism to the monroe doctrine and its "manifest destiny," the white acquisition of native-american lands which started early on; there's mexico, etc., then teddy roosevelt's cuba, panama, etc. etc. strangely enough the US was pretty isolationist up until about the spanish-american war. i'll stop here as i realize this is already way off topic. but you asked.  :Biggrin:

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## ghideon

> of course some white people feel inferior, they just don't have a history of systematized oppression to point to as an excuse for their own inadequacies or failures in life. the truly outrageous in this category of white inferiority may join a neo-nazi or paramilitary group as an outlet of their rage. others with less hostile an agenda will sign up with Greenpeace or throw pies at bill gates.  but most recognize that life isn't always fair and don't whine about it.


Actually my best hunch is that a huge number of white people have deep feelings of inferiority. You have to remember that racism against black people is only one form of oppression. White people who work for a living also face the oppression inherent in a class based economic system. What I hear and see and read all the time is that there are alot of angry white people. In fact, I am one of them.

But there is a confusion here. Many white people feel that if someone says they are racist or that they have profited as a result of their skin color...they feel like "hey...wait a minute...my life is damn hard...I barely manage to pay the rent, put food on my plate and keep my marriage intact and now you accuse me of victimizing blacks and gaining something as a result...yea right." 

But these common expressions of anger and distress need to be examined critically. First, the fact that someone faces many real difficulties does not mean that racism does not exist. Those are two very different issues. A man can have a real hard life but that would not, by itself, prove that sexism does not exist. In that example the man's difficulties are real and thus have causes. And a woman in this society also has very real difficulties, many of which, I would argue, are based on how women, in general, are treated. So there is sexism and a man can still have a very hard life.

In the case of racism many white people can have very hard lives and people of color can also face oppression because of how people with their skin color are treated.

The assumption many have is if white people have profited from racism then their lives should be easy. Afterall, racism sounds like a horrible thing to be accused of and if someone is racist then there ought to be some proof. If white people are on top then where is the proof of that in my life or the life of those around me.

Fair enough. But look, in 2006 anybody living in the US and having to work each day for a living and particularly those who, for many different reasons, do not make a great deal of money...all of those human beings, black,white, asian, hispanic are going to have it hard. No question about that. Some have it real real hard, particularly if they do not have the particular skills necessary to gain solid good pay jobs in an economy that has moved far from blue collar trade jobs to a service/information-technology based market driven system.

Back in the days when the United States was developing a working-class system, away from a purely agricultural based slave system, white workers were paid more money then those blacks who worked. And this was done so that those two groups, those in the black working class and those in the white working class, would fight each other instead of seeing that in terms of class they are both being exploited. I am not claiming some grand conspiracy theory. It actually was a very simple act of divide and conquer. That has been a strategy used by those in power for thousands of years. This was simply a use of it in the United States of America and it has worked quite well.

This is a forum entiteld philosophy and certainly logic is a fundamental branch of philosophy.

White people have struggles.
White people are angry.
Thus people of color are not oppressed.

Can someone spell out the logic here if I do not see it.

and as far as white people whining...yea...many whine, some complain, some write, some speak loudly others may say nothing at all. This may be interesting sociologically but otherwise...so what? Just because I whine about my car running out of gas does not mean it didn't.

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## dramasnot6

what i got from your post ghideon, is that members of all races can and do experience hardship? this is very true indeed, and could be yet more reason why people inflict racism amongst one another. Like in "West Side Story" both groups were in hardships of their own, yet they still try to install a sense of superiority over one another. Racism could be used as a psychological lever to feel less impoverished by comparing yourself to someone you view as far more inferior in society. Maybe internalized racism leads to other expressions of racism, causing a domino effect. As in one group faces prejudice, feel bad and conflicted about themselves and their societal position, then take it out on another racial group, making them feel the same. 

"But these common expressions of anger and distress need to be examined critically. First, the fact that someone faces many real difficulties does not mean that racism does not exist. Those are two very different issues. A man can have a real hard life but that would not, by itself, prove that sexism does not exist. In that example the man's difficulties are real and thus have causes. And a woman in this society also has very real difficulties, many of which, I would argue, are based on how women, in general, are treated. So there is sexism and a man can still have a very hard life."

Very interesting you bring up sexism there too, and make it fit very nicely into the topic. I agree with your points about how women are treated too.




> What I meant was that certain prejudices might actually be true for a given individual. To give an example. I'm Italian-American. Many people seem to think that a large number of Italian-Americans are involved in organized crime. Now I would say that 99% or more of Italian-Americans are not involved in organized crime. But what about that 1% that may actually be in the mafia. Was it because it was internalized racism? 
> 
> Look I hate racism. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. But something else I hate is psychobabble. The idea that we can understand how a person became that person. There are people who show signs of internalized racism and there are people with the same background who do not. I don't know what this internalized racism really means.


Internalized racism is simply an impact of racism. When people are victims of racism they can react in different ways, all of which i have witnessed and some experienced in my moving and travels. One could be defensive and resentful, one could automatically attack them in turn, or one could take their prejudice to heart and consider themselves how those racist against them do. I too have a dislike for meaningless psychogical terms. In the last year i have taken a very large interest in psychology and have been looking around the internet, newspapers, and magazines to learn more about it. I have only seen the term "internalized racism" come up once or twice but immediatly, for maybe personal or strictly curious reasons, i was drawn to it as a very interesting concept. I find almost all human conflict to be a product of power struggle, and racism to be the most direct expression of this power struggle. It can be seen amongst all ages and cultures. I see internalized racism as being one of the more peculiar causes of continuos racism and power struggle, and had hoped that in discussion of it we could become a bit more familiar in the workings of human society. I have seen some fascinating takes on the topic, and few people being familiar with it seemed to make it even more interesting as the opinion have been more raw and direct. I didnt expect such an amazing range of contributions and have learned a lot, as always, from everyone here.

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## jon1jt

> Back in the days when the United States was developing a working-class system, away from a purely agricultural based slave system, white workers were paid more money then those blacks who worked. And this was done so that those two groups, those in the black working class and those in the white working class, would fight each other instead of seeing that in terms of class they are both being exploited. I am not claiming some grand conspiracy theory. It actually was a very simple act of divide and conquer. That has been a strategy used by those in power for thousands of years. This was simply a use of it in the United States of America and it has worked quite well.


you totally miss the mark. first of all white people are hardly monolithic as you suggest. economic stratification pits individuals into classes based on a new criteria of growing importance---i.e. neighborhood. whites are divided into social enclaves---whites who live on the upper west side of NYC sneer at those on the lower east. the same is true with counties - north/south/central divides connote class stereotypes and have an increasing importance for how whites view _each_ _other_. so there is a whole socio-economic dynamic occurring simultaneously against the forces of racial distinctions. your little US history fails to account that there was a white gentry that was completely isolated from commoners. there are some interesting studies into the extent commoners loathed slaves as a way to ameliorate their own sense of social inferiority. 

[quote=hgideon]This is a forum entiteld philosophy and certainly logic is a fundamental branch of philosophy.



> White people have struggles.
> White people are angry.
> Thus people of color are not oppressed.
> 
> Can someone spell out the logic here if I do not see it.
> 
> and as far as white people whining...yea...many whine, some complain, some write, some speak loudly others may say nothing at all. This may be interesting sociologically but otherwise...so what? Just because I whine about my car running out of gas does not mean it didn't.


i didn't invoke that logic at all, it's your sad misinterpretation of it. i affirm the premises and not the conclusion. my conclusion is: 

all people are subject to oppressive devices

such supports the example i gave early on about my friend who missed out on the library job. it is quite the case that a form of discrimination was at play there, and yet he didn't whine about the outcome. he sucked it up and moved on. you see, the system will work out these "kinks" because no system can thrive and remain robust without the constant tapping of its most vital resources. and one of those resources happens to be intelligence. in my example, the library director - and the industry as a whole - lost out. my friend went on to get a job at bear sterns and is quite happy. he holds masters degees in both finance and library science. in my world, individuals overcome discrimination; in your world, discrimination overcomes individuals. Emersonian self-reliance says quite simply: stop worrying about everybody else. your -isms and schisms exist, undoubtedly; but, we live in a different world today. merit matters because individual interests (profit) are at stake. and if that means to hire a black candidate who is the best for the job, so it will be done. certainly not every white employer will be so wise, but the one who sees deeper than the skin pigmentation one wears to that molten core of the human spirit, will ultimately gain.

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## ghideon

> you totally miss the mark. first of all white people are hardly monolithic as you suggest. economic stratification pits individuals into classes based on a new criteria of growing importance---i.e. neighborhood. whites are divided into social enclaves---whites who live on the upper west side of NYC sneer at those on the lower east. the same is true with counties - north/south/central divides connote class stereotypes and have an increasing importance for how whites view _each_ _other_. so there is a whole socio-economic dynamic occurring simultaneously against the forces of racial distinctions. your little US history fails to account that there was a white gentry that was completely isolated from commoners. there are some interesting studies into the extent commoners loathed slaves as a way to ameliorate their own sense of social inferiority. 
> 
> 
> 
> i didn't invoke that logic at all, it's your sad misinterpretation of it. i affirm the premises and not the conclusion. my conclusion is: 
> 
> it is quite the case that a form of discrimination was at play there, and yet he didn't whine about the outcome. he sucked it up and moved on. you see, the system will work out these "kinks" because no system can thrive and remain robust without the constant tapping of its most vital resources. and one of those resources happens to be intelligence.
> 
> in my world, individuals overcome discrimination; in your world, discrimination overcomes individuals. Emersonian self-reliance says quite simply: stop worrying about everybody else. your -isms and schisms exist, undoubtedly; but, we live in a different world today. merit matters because individual interests (profit) are at stake. and if that means to hire a black candidate who is the best for the job, so it will be done. certainly not every white employer will be so wise, but the one who sees deeper than the skin pigmentation one wears to that molten core of the human spirit, will ultimately gain.




OK. I am not sure if this will work but I am gona take on some of what you have written above.

I am acutely aware of the fact that the larger category of "all white people" can be easily broken down into smaller groups such as "upper west side white people" "lower east side white people" "white workers" "white gentry." So I will just concede this...yes it is not a monolithic entity. And you are right about the antagonistic relations between the upper west side whites and the soho/village whites. I grew up in Manhattan. 

You seem dead set on making it very clear the racism is not the only oppression going on in the world or in the US. You are most certainly correct. No argument there either. And white people face all sorts of oppressions even though they are white.

But you have also stated other things. You have written that "imperialism is dead" and that I should "get over it." You have written that "apartheid is over." You have stated that there "is no white power structure."

So the general impression I get from your writing is that you do not see the United States or Great Britain or the whites in South Africa still actively exploiting,attacking,killing,people of color and entire nations of people of color. And I can not agree to that. Most studies that I have read recently state that we have moved from a world where the United States was one power amongst others to an Empire situation where the United States is very simply the dominant power. Now this does mean that certain aspects of imperialism are no longer occuring but this, in no way at all, implies that the foreign or domestic policy of an Empire are fair, just, humane or that the US is no longer exploiting, attacking, economically controlling many other nations and certainly many communites and countries of people of color.

Can you please explain to me how US corporations can earn such huge profits...some are larger then the GNP of small nations without brutal exploitation of both human beings and natural resources. If you can explain how that can be done then you need to go to DC and join a Think Tank to spread your insights into the possibility of a non-exploitive capitalist Empire. If you believe that there is still violent exploitation going on all over the globe then I would simply suggest that most of that exploitation is the dehumanization of poor and working class people of color. The huge corps...IBM, Exon, McDonald Douglas, Nestle, General Foods...these are international corporations that have workers in many many different nations. The bulk of the worlds population is people with non-white skin so the bulk of workers is also people of color. In addition, these corporations may have thousands of lower level and some mid level managers who are not white but trust me, the men pulling the strings are white and male and gentile. And most of the people who own stock in these corporations are white men.

Don't try and pretend that just because there are all sorts of oppressions going down this means one can minimize the brutality of racism. That not only communicates disrespect to people of color but it is also will lead to mistakes in critical approaches to other forms of oppression since the dynamics between them will be misunderstood.

Reclaim as much self-respect, respect of others, respect of white people as you can. Go for it. I am white and I know I deserve respect and that it is good when I am able to respect myself deeply.

But, but, but try to stop doing this in a way that invalidates the very real day to day struggles of billions of human beings who happen to have a different skin then you and I.

There is simply no need to do that.
One groups tragedy does not need to be invalidated, misrepresented, or made light of just because another group of people feels like nobody is listening to them.

You may still accept that there is racism out there but you seem to go out of your way to say it is really not all that bad and I have seen too much to just let that go. I have really seen so much. Too much.

Please try to keep in mind that how a person treats themselves and others around them, and their community is a direct reflection of how they feel about themselves and their condition and environment. The disgusting, filthy, bloody, drug infested endemic in the ghettos across the US is a direct reflection of the missery in the soul of black folk. This is not some high brow theory of mine. This is my best attempt at articulating the tears, broken lives, torn up families, and rage that many of my closest friends have tried talk to me about. I believe I owe them that much. Not out of any sense of guilt or obligation. Simply out of love. Actually, it is not them that I owe...it is me.

You have a serious misreading of Emerson. His paradigm, and the paradigm of Thoreau, Whitman and others of the Transcendentalists was not at all promoting some narrowing sense of ones 'I' ness...ones individual soul. No. The reason one could devote ones self to the immediate environment around them and to ones own self-development and reliance is because the essential nature of the 'I' is a 'We'. That the relationship between ones self and all of humanity, in fact, all of nature is so intimate that to focus on the 'I' in a deep, challenging, difficult but very profound way is to, at the very same time, love the world. You seem to make it sound like some literary version of Donald Trump. And you might try reading On Civil Disobedeince by Thoreau.

I do not know if too many people will understand me but I am speaking from the heart when I say that building real, honest, open, close relations with black people in the US has been one of the most rewarding parts of my life. And I do not mean having coffee now and then. I mean living with, fighting with, yelling at, crying with, laughing with, drinking with...

this really is the core struggle of my life...it is an issue I have studied for more then a decade and if it is true that as long as one's path has heart then it is true...then my path on ending racism is a true one. :Frown:   :Crash:   :Smile:

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## jon1jt

> You seem dead set on making it very clear the racism is not the only oppression going on in the world or in the US. You are most certainly correct. No argument there either. And white people face all sorts of oppressions even though they are white. But you have also stated other things. You have written that "imperialism is dead" and that I should "get over it." You have written that "apartheid is over." You have stated that there "is no white power structure."


this is all i have time for. i will have to hold off addressing your "corporations are taking over the world and exploiting people of color" argument and for now will just roll my eyes. 

regarding above, you continue to intimate that there is some grandiose structure - a global network of white power bent on oppressing blacks and it's simply not the case. i agreed that there are _forms_ of discrimination, but not always directed toward _groups_ or _persons_. 




> So the general impression I get from your writing is that you do not see the United States or Great Britain or the whites in South Africa still actively exploiting,attacking,killing,people of color and entire nations of people of color. And I can not agree to that. Most studies that I have read recently state that we have moved from a world where the United States was one power amongst others to an Empire situation where the United States is very simply the dominant power. Now this does mean that certain aspects of imperialism are no longer occuring but this, in no way at all, implies that the foreign or domestic policy of an Empire are fair, just, humane or that the US is no longer exploiting, attacking, economically controlling many other nations and certainly many communites and countries of people of color.


well you need to stop reading your "most studies" then. i know, you're probably reading Foreign Affairs and Foreign Policy, or maybe that's too neo-con for you. certainly you've perused The Nation and The Progressive, and i wouldn't be surprised if you subscribe to Dissent and Mother Jones. yeah i'm familiar with the "American Empire" babble. i'll write more on this later.




> Please try to keep in mind that how a person treats themselves and others around them, and their community is a direct reflection of how they feel about themselves and their condition and environment. The disgusting, filthy, bloody, drug infested endemic in the ghettos across the US is a direct reflection of the missery in the soul of black folk. This is not some high brow theory of mine. This is my best attempt at articulating the tears, broken lives, torn up families, and rage that many of my closest friends have tried talk to me about. I believe I owe them that much. Not out of any sense of guilt or obligation. Simply out of love. Actually, it is not them that I owe...it is me.[


i think it's wonderful you feel so strongly about improving the conditions of ghetto life. in addition to "articulating the tears, broken lives, torn up familes and rage that many of my closest friends have tried talk to me about..." you ought to do more, step up. you could start by donating some of your hard-earned money into organizations that were brought into existence to tackle the very problems you describe. put your money where your mouth is. you'll help them AND feel good about it, because that's what it's about for you, right? "it is not them that i owe...it is me...simply out of love." so, start loving.




> You have a serious misreading of Emerson. His paradigm, and the paradigm of Thoreau, Whitman and others of the Transcendentalists was not at all promoting some narrowing sense of ones 'I' ness...ones individual soul. No. The reason one could devote ones self to the immediate environment around them and to ones own self-development and reliance is because the essential nature of the 'I' is a 'We'. That the relationship between ones self and all of humanity, in fact, all of nature is so intimate that to focus on the 'I' in a deep, challenging, difficult but very profound way is to, at the very same time, love the world. You seem to make it sound like some literary version of Donald Trump. And you might try reading On Civil Disobedeince by Thoreau.


"paradigms"---there you go with that "system-think" again, as if everything consist in neat little boxes. the world's far more messy than you make it out to be. and with all due respect, your state-centric view of the world is becoming nauseating. i highly recommend one of my old prof's books: James N. Rosenau's Along The Domestic/Foreign Frontier: Exploring Governance In A Turbulent World" it'll change your life.  :Smile: 

I've read civil disobedience but you fail to mention that thoreau refused to pay a tax and was arrested and jailed because he felt he shouldn't have to give to big brother if he didn't want to. and this is not my "interpretation" since he spells it out in the section, "philanthropy", in Walden. trust me, next time before you go blowing off your mouth about thoreau - whom you know nothing about, or at least you haven't demonstrated that knowledge here - i recommend you read him, slowly. as far as emerson, i'll take that up later. read your transcendentalism too pertaining to I and we---i recommend you start with Thoreau's Walking essay, then head on over to Emerson's Circles and Nature, then come back here and tell me Self-Reliance is about a "we." it's much much bigger than that. 

"I am a transparent eyeball." 
-RWE

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## dramasnot6

"regarding above, you continue to intimate that there is some grandiose structure - a global network of white power bent on oppressing blacks and it's simply not the case. i agreed that there are forms of discrimination, but not always directed toward groups or persons. "

Ill have to agree with you here jon. there isnt one constant,official power structure in the world. It can all be rather objective.

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## ghideon

1. Look...I actually do want to communicate in a forward moving direction here. That is, I want the dialouge to either teach me, inform me, affect me so that when I look back on the discussion it is seen as a positive, not always comfortable, but positive experience.

It is important to me that I communicate respect to you and that you communicate respect to me in the process. If I have disrespected you in my writings then I apologize. You do not deserve disrespect.

I hope you agree with what I have said above in terms of the goals of a discussion and the importance of mutual respect. This seems particularly important when dealing with an issue like racism which is certainly an explosive topic.

In an effort towards building a more respectful discussion I am going to try and make my position a bit more clear but also, I hope, less absolute.

In terms of corporations taking over the world. I did not mean to imply that there is a "grandiose" structure "a global network of white power bent on oppressing blacks." I will be a bit more specific. I do not imagine a cabal of white men who meet in dark rooms and talk about how they can keep the black man or black woman or black race down. I am sure there are some corporate folk that are that racist and might have conversations like that but I would doubt it is a common event. Rather, there are basically good, human beings in positions of power and they have a particular undestanding and perspective on what is in their best interest, what is in the corporations best interest, what is in the world's best interest etc... And that because of how they were raised, the communities they were brought up in, the colleges they attended etc their view on "best interest" is quite different then, for example, my view would be or many many other peoples idea of "what is best."

I do not think Bush is evil or Clinton good. I do not think that MLK was a better human being then anybody else. Not at core. There is just the simple assesment of a person's actions and how they affected people. Some actions have done enormous harm to people and other actions have been of enormous benefit.

I am not better or worse then anybody else, black or white, fascist or communist.

But when I look at the world today and I admit that how I look at the world may be very different then how you look at it...I read certain things, you read different things, I talk to certain people, you talk to different people.
Nevertheless, all I have to go on is what my experiences have taught me. And one thing that I feel relatively confident in is that there is a great great deal of poverty and suffering occuring all over this planet right now as we speak and that this has been true for a long time as well.

There are, ofcourse, many many different strategies and beliefs about suffering and how to aleviate it or end it. There are even different opinions on whether it should be dealt with at all. And clearly I can not expound on all perspectives that are possible. I simply have my perspectives.

Actually, I am going to stop here. I have a tendency to write on and on in an argumentative style and this has not seemed to work in terms of our communication. My best bet is that our deep disagreements come from deep differences in life. Differences in current situations and differences in past experiences. Our different lives have led us to very different assesments.

I do not think that disagreements are usually over facts vs lies. Unfortunately, it is more complex. There are billions of facts out there and anybody can pick and choose which facts are important to point out and which ones are not. That will always express a bias. Also, I do not believe there is really such a thing as "the whole truth...so help me God."

As I write I get a better sense of what I need to simply say. For a variety of personal reasons I want racism to end. For the most part the reason this issue is important to me is because of how my life has gone, both in good ways and hard ways. But once I realized how important it is to me I spent a great deal of time trying to figure out how it can be eliminated. One thing I found is that the first racism that has to be eliminated is my own. And as I move on that I will be in increasingly better shape to assist other individuals and groups to lessen and eliminate their racism.

Can you simply write back a response that strives to communicate respect to me. You may not think that a great deal of what you write comes across to me as deeply invalidating but it does. I am not saying that is your intent. I am simply stating a fact that I hope concerns you. I am so tired of all of the hot air arguments all over the internet. It just seems like there is so much being yelled and very little being spoken. There seems to be so much talk and not nearly enough listening. So the dialouge between you and I needs to move to different ground.




> "regarding above, you continue to intimate that there is some grandiose structure - a global network of white power bent on oppressing blacks and it's simply not the case. i agreed that there are forms of discrimination, but not always directed toward groups or persons. "
> 
> Ill have to agree with you here jon. there isnt one constant,official power structure in the world. It can all be rather objective.


I wrote at length about the importance of understanding other forms of oppression: sexism being one, and class oppression being another.

OK. There is not a "global" "network" "of" "white" "power" "bent on" "oppressing" "blacks."

Fine. For what that is worth. A "network" can never be "bent on" anything. A network is a noun that describes a complex dyanamic. Only human beings have the capacity for intent. People can create things because of their intent and then use them for a variety of intents but the thing itself does not have intent.

I do think that a network, a system,an oppression...whatever... is global. At least racism is global. That is, racism effects people in Africa, Asia, Latin America, Europe and the United States.

I think that corporations have a global impact at this era in history.

And I also would say that if you wanted to determine what institutions have the most impact in the world today...certainly corporations would be near the top of the list.

If you had a list of all the corporations in the world and it would be a very long list...I would be my computer that almost all of biggest in terms of profits earned would be international and also predominantly run by white men.

I would further state that it is certainly possible for a white person to direct a corporation without any racist policies or practices. But at this point in history I feel confident in saying that if you took IBM and Nestle and Pepsi and GM and somehow demanded that they stop exploiting people of color...they would first deny the exploitation or try and say it is really not that bad at all...they would say that what they were doing was necessary to stay competitive.

And you know what, I would probably agree with them about the last point, at least. I really do not know how to move forward without millions of people going from bad wages to no wages. So I can even sympathize with some corporate struggles. But I still assert that racism is a very destructive dynamic...that corporations participate in racism because it is pretty much built into the current economic system of profit, markets and the creation of commodities. And that it is international. :Biggrin:   :Yawnb:

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## jon1jt

i understand what you mean pertaining to the dialogue. look, if i didn't respect you or what you had to say and others here, i would have ignored you after the first post. focus on what's being discussed here - the ideas. you're spending more time bent about superficialities and decorum than the issues. not to worry, i respect you my brother.  :Smile:  

i agree, life experience is a powerful source of knowledge. it shapes our identity by allowing us to 'see' the world, just not the whole ball of wax. this seeing the world is too often colored by misrepresentations and overgeneralizations, which imbues a great deal of what's being taught in college classrooms today. for example, your criticism of corporations has all been said before, and you took the easy way out by not giving key examples to support your global racism theory. forget your "studies," ---most studies are cooked up in ivory towers anyway, and most of those folks don't even read the newspaper because they're too busy presenting papers at their conferences and holding on to cushy jobs with ideologies that don't comport with modern realities.  :Smile:  

what did YOU come away with from the "variety" of sources available to you? what are people saying about so and so? where exactly is this discrimination that Company X is allegedly levying against people of color in Region Y? and what parties are involved and what, if anything, is being done about it? if nothing, why not? i can turn on any liberal radio show and listen to the same speak about "governments" and "countries" that your opinions are drowning in, as if governments are the masters of the universe. the world is far more complex---but that complexity is available to us, but requires - necessitates. a more careful consideration of our sources of information. your main source appears to be life experience. well that's great. but it's hardly enough to draw final conclusions about racism, let alone the world and people in it. 

you seem to suggest that white people are clueless about racism and other forms of discrimination, but it's not the case, at all. i don't know about the rest of whites, but i don't get all hung up on your race war notions because i am confident that actors/organizations/governments are responsive to these issues (not all the time). if you're upset with the speed of such progress, then i suggest, again, that you consider getting involved in volunteer work. donate money, go over to africa, latin america, proselytize, set up a rally in Washington, D.C., work on a political campaign, whatever it takes that will make you feel at the end of the day that you're doing everything YOU can. you mentioned thoreau's civil disobedience as being an act against systemic injustice. but thoreau emphasizes the "system's" infringement of personal liberties. MLK incidentally left thoreau's fierce notions of the individual out of his own views of thoreau. maybe that's where you got it from.




> I would further state that it is certainly possible for a white person to direct a corporation without any racist policies or practices. But at this point in history I feel confident in saying that if you took IBM and Nestle and Pepsi and GM and somehow demanded that they stop exploiting people of color...they would first deny the exploitation or try and say it is really not that bad at all...they would say that what they were doing was necessary to stay competitive.
> 
> And you know what, I would probably agree with them about the last point, at least. I really do not know how to move forward without millions of people going from bad wages to no wages. So I can even sympathize with some corporate struggles. But I still assert that racism is a very destructive dynamic...that corporations participate in racism because it is pretty much built into the current economic system of profit, markets and the creation of commodities. And that it is international.


there you go again --- this is a perfect example based on what i said in my previous post. how the hell do you know IBM and Nestle and Pepsi and GM are all "exploiting people of color?" 

man, you really are an angry white guy!  :Biggrin:

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## genoveva

> oh please! how the hell is a white guy privileged exactly? i have two friends - both white - one has a masters and is collecting unemployment benefits because he got laid off recently as an engineer. the other works construction and has sat in the union hall every morning the past two months unassigned and is living on borrowed money. but they're not whining or spinning theories about a black or latino power structure taking over the world. 
> 
> this poster is yet another example of internal racism. 
> 
> admit it: you think affirmative action is a "complex" subject matter too.  
> 
> your local college is offering plenty more of those courses this spring in "women's studies" and "cultural history". (vomit)


This post, as do many others of yours, has a lot of anger in it, and I feel like you are personally attacking me when you say "this poster is yet another example of internal racism". You don't even know my race, or anything about me so how can you make this statement? I was simply addressing hierarchy of power which has much more to do than just with race. Race is one element. I listed others. Class is also another one.

A "white guy" is privileged because he can move into almost any neighborhood and be sure he has neighbors that look like he does. He is almost guaranteed to have a boss the same sex and skin color as he does. He can easily turn on the tv and see shows about people the same color as he is. He is priveleged because he could go into a convenience store at midnight and not necessarily be eyed with suspicion. Your "white guy" friend is priveleged because he actually got to go to school and get a Masters (whether or not he's employed). Just because they are not "winers" doesn't mean they are any less privileged.

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## jon1jt

> This post, as do many others of yours, has a lot of anger in it, and I feel like you are personally attacking me when you say "this poster is yet another example of internal racism". You don't even know my race, or anything about me so how can you make this statement? I was simply addressing hierarchy of power which has much more to do than just with race. Race is one element. I listed others. Class is also another one. A "white guy" is privileged because he can move into almost any neighborhood and be sure he has neighbors that look like he does. He is almost guaranteed to have a boss the same sex and skin color as he does. He can easily turn on the tv and see shows about people the same color as he is. He is priveleged because he could go into a convenience store at midnight and not necessarily be eyed with suspicion. Your "white guy" friend is priveleged because he actually got to go to school and get a Masters (whether or not he's employed). Just because they are not "winers" doesn't mean they are any less privileged.
> 
> This post, as do many others of yours, has a lot of anger in it, and I feel like you are personally attacking me when you say "this poster is yet another example of internal racism". You don't even know my race, or anything about me so how can you make this statement? I was simply addressing hierarchy of power which has much more to do than just with race. Race is one element. I listed others. Class is also another one.
> 
> A "white guy" is privileged because he can move into almost any neighborhood and be sure he has neighbors that look like he does. He is almost guaranteed to have a boss the same sex and skin color as he does. He can easily turn on the tv and see shows about people the same color as he is. He is priveleged because he could go into a convenience store at midnight and not necessarily be eyed with suspicion. Your "white guy" friend is priveleged because he actually got to go to school and get a Masters (whether or not he's employed). Just because they are not "winers" doesn't mean they are any less privileged.


I write poems not anger.  :Biggrin:  

so you think that you can make grandiose statements about "all white men" but i can't make an educated guess that your comment is an example of internal racism? surely ye jest? 

if you had read my comments from the first one and not been so busy worrying about trite "anger" innuendos made, you'd figure out that i said quite a lot about internal racism and what it means as applied to you. i wasn't personally attacking you at all - i meant that in the academic sense based on the previous remarks you left. 

don't you think that you owe it to people who leave comments to at least read what they have to say on a subject matter before suggesting somebody "personally attacked" you? and let me ask you, how do you suppose to know everything about the white male race (which includes me) based on the comments you made here? 

as to my "white friend" 'at least getting the "chance"' to go to college as you put it, the last i checked the US government was giving away huge amount of tax dollars in the form of PELL and Tuition Aid Grants that they are not required to pay back. there's also Stafford Loans with deferment options, etc. and if your academically motivated in high school our generous system actually has quite a number of scholarships. don't you know? i should add that far too many incoming college students have at best a six grade reading level so the government has to coddle them further by setting up remedial programs in an effort to give students basic skills that they should have had if they had only brought home their textbooks in high school. it just so happens that the folks in this category are mostly black and hispanic. so please spare me your suggestion that my white friend is "privileged" and black folks/minorities have little opportunity to obtain the same education as my white male friend because the "system" is somehow holding down the black man. my friend worked his tail off to get where he is and he didn't have any handouts from government either. then again, he's also not the kind of guy who whines about people personally attacking him or that the system is holding him back.  :Biggrin: 

It's very interesting to me that i never once met an Asian in the United States who whined about the system holding him/her back, in spite of the harsh treatment and systematic racism once waged by the US government against them via Chinese labor of transcontinental railroads/anti-chinese immigration laws/Japanese detainment camps, WWII. they study hard, go to college, get good-paying jobs, all while overcoming the language barrier. many obtain college scholarships and they're actually proud to be American! and they never petitioned the government in the spirit the black community did to make EBONICS a legal form of black language.

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## genoveva

_Here is some information from http://www.rc.org/ur/InternalizedRacism.html that may help provide some information regarding what "internalized racism" is, and how it affects people:_

INTERNALIZED RACISM

Internalized racism occurs when people targeted by racism are, against their will, coerced and pressured to agree with the distortions of racism. Each of us targeted by racism fights, from childhood on, as long and as hard as we dare, to maintain a sense of ourselves as good, smart, strong, important, and powerful. However, in our societies, racist attitudes are so harsh, so pervasive, and so damaging that each of us is forced at times to turn racism in upon ourselves and seemingly agree with some of the conditioning, internalizing the messages of racism. We come to mistreat ourselves and other members of our group in the same ways that we have been mistreated as the targets of racism.

Examples of internalized racism appear everywhere, for example:

*

Racism has made us think of ourselves or each other as stupid, lazy, unimportant, or inferior.
*

Racism has made us criticize or verbally attack each other, using the racist messages of our societies, or allow others in our group to do so.
*

Racism has made us physically attack or kill each other, playing out our rage about racism at one another.
*

Racism has made us put our individual well-being last. Racism has made us unable to think about our physical and emotional health, making us vulnerable to heart disease, high blood pressure, obesity, diabetes, HIV/AIDS, ulcers, and more.
*

Racism has made us criticize and beat our children in misguided efforts to "discipline" them and keep them from openly displaying pride or pleasure in themselves (attempting to make them less vulnerable to racism, but instead leaving them more beaten down and enraged).
*

Racism has made us feel hopeless, despairing, and angry, which can make us vulnerable to the lure of alcohol and other drugs for "relief" from those feelings, even though we know that this does additional harm to ourselves and our families.
*

Racism has made our various racial groups fight with each other over what seems like a scarcity of resources; racism has made us fight each other in gangs.
*

Racism has made some of our group join racist institutions and take part in carrying out their racist policies against our own people.
*

Racism has made us feel disconnected from other members of our group, or divide or categorize each other by behaviors or lifestyles, believing that some of us are "better" or "more legitimate" than others and that what some others do is "not part of" our cultures.
*

Racism has made us place higher value on members of our group who appear more white, and denigrate those who have darker skin, kinkier hair, or other "less white" features. We also do the reverse--we target those with lighter skins as not being "black enough," not legitimate persons of color.

We are not to blame for any of these attitudes or behaviors, but we can increasingly understand them and take steps to end them and to heal the damage done to us by racism.

HEALING FROM THE DAMAGE INFLICTED BY RACISM AND INTERNALIZED RACISM

To heal from the damage inflicted by racism and internalized racism, we need to tell our stories--how racism has affected our lives, what has happened to us and to our people. We need the chance to openly express our feelings about our experiences of racism. When we do this, the damage done by racism begins to dissipate. We start seeing ourselves as good, smart, strong, complete human beings. We feel and act more powerfully and hopeful about ending racism and other oppressions. We treat each other more respectfully and cooperatively.

For this healing process to work well, we need someone to listen attentively--someone who is sincerely interested, who stays relaxed while we express our emotions, and who encourages us to use the process of emotional release--crying, laughing, trembling, and so on. Any two individuals can agree to take turns listening to each other, without interruption, for a specified amount of time (for example, half an hour each), encouraging each other to share our experiences fully and release our emotions.

United to End Racism has found that safety for healing from internalized racism builds when people meet not only in pairs but also in support groups with others from a similar background or heritage (for example, African or African descendant, Indigenous, Asian or Asian descendant, Chicano/Chicana, Mestizo/Mestiza, or Arab or Arab descendant). In these support groups each member has an equal amount of uninterrupted time to share experiences of racism while the others listen attentively. The support group leader encourages the person talking to express his or her thoughts and feelings. The leader welcomes and encourages the tears, trembling, raging, and laughter that often occur spontaneously as people talk about their struggles with racism.

When we first participate in these groups, internalized racism may cause negative feelings about each other (feelings of distrust, dislike, upset with, and so on) to surface. Members of the group have to make an agreement to not act on the basis of those feelings that would keep us separated from each other.

Questions such as the following can help members of support groups begin to identify and focus on internalized racism:

*

What information about yourself would you like others to know--about your heritage, country of origin, family, class background, and so on?
*

What makes you proud about being a member of this group, and what do you love about other members of this group?
*

What has been hard about being a member of this group, and what don't you like about others in this group?

*

What were your early life experiences with people in this group? How were you treated? How did you feel about others in your group when you were young?

When people are given a chance to talk and express their feelings, internalized racism is directly challenged. As emotions are released, people's negative feelings about themselves and others in their groups begin to disappear. People are able to think more clearly. They can reach for cooperative relationships more easily. Once groups of people have had a chance to meet separately in this way, greater unity and participation are possible when they join with larger, more diverse groups of people.

Support groups can be used in many settings--at the workplace, at school, in religious settings, in the neighborhood. Support groups are increasingly helpful for the participants over time. As the participants get to know each other, they become closer to each other, more supportive of each other, and more open. Even two people can have a support group, taking turns listening to one another. Support groups can also be used for non-race-based groups, such as women, young people, and working-class people.

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## dramasnot6

Wow...thank you so so so much for that wonderful elaboration on internalized racism! Very much appreciated, I'm sure others feel the same.

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## Poetess

Thank you dear, I had read this post previously somewhere, twice.
Now this is the third, benefitial.
Thank you

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## Scheherazade

This is the final reminder to everyone contributing to this thread:

*Racism is a sensitive enough subject without us personalising our arguments and/or offending those who come from different backgrounds by various generalised remarks.*

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## ghideon

> I write poems not anger.  
> 
> so you think that you can make grandiose statements about "all white men" but i can't make an educated guess that your comment is an example of internal racism? surely ye jest? 
> 
> Jon1, I do not believe that the statements made as regards white privilige and how it is manifest in the world were "grandiose". Grandiose means that something is exagerated inorder to impress, in this case, the other readers of this thread.
> 
> I know that many white men do not "feel" priviliged but that does not mean they are not the recepients of privilige. Just because an individual does not feel something does not, in any way, prove that a certain dynamic, object...does not exist. Certainly the individual or group can be unaware of many aspects of their environment. And in this case, because the US has been led by, governed by, white people for so long a great deal of the privilige is simply...it is like the old fish in the water story where the water is so dominant a reality that the fish does not see it.
> 
> This is even more so the case when discussing oppression. If a woman is talking to me about some of the struggles she faces as a woman how can I, as a man, really tell her that she is wrong. I can not. Now obviously if she says that 1,000 men have guns pointed at her she is out of touch with consensual reality and I can certainly confidently know that. But that is really all I can know. There is simply no way that me, as a man, can understand the internal world of a woman in this culture. I probably can only be a bit aware of the external factors in her life but in terms of understand how she experiences this society and what her emotions are about that. I really owe it to her and to myself to take a position of deep humility.
> ...


And finally, your ending. It was actually your last paragraph that has inspired me to write back. It is way way out there. Very common, sadly. But not worthy of being tolerated. There is just one slight difference, actually there are hundreds but one key one...one fundamental difference between the historical experience of blacks in the US versus Asian Americans. Blacks were brought here in chains. Now every single brutality that you listed as regards the Asian community is accurate and is important to take into account when thinking about racism towards people from that region. But the simple, unarguable, basic, objective truth is that there is only one group of human beings in the US who can point to chains and slave ships as the absolutely dominant way that people of their race came to America. Irish can not say it. Jews can not. Greeks can not. Chinese can not.

And this has nothing to do with any effort at saying this group is better then that group. Blacks are not better then any other group whatsoever. There are people with black skin that I am friends with and others that I really dislike strongly. The African-American community has certainly made many mistakes throughout its history in the US and it has also brought great benefits and brilliance to the broader US culture.

I simply can not tolerate anybody making the implication, which you did, that black people must lack the inteligence, maturity or work-ethic and that is the cause of their condition. 

I read once that anybody who reads fiction "deeply" can not remain prejudiced. I would not go that far but I do believe that fiction more then any other art form exposes the reader to the "lived/felt" experience of people we would never ever meet or get to know. James Baldwin, Richard Wright, Charles Johnson, Ralph Ellison...actually one of the best novels I have ever read is called The Known World. It was considered to be up there with novels written by Faulkner in terms of the quality, power, imagery, imagination of the writing and story. Another book, now that I think of it, is Manchild Of The Promised Land about a young black boy growing up in Harlem, NY. It too is a classic.
 :Crash:

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## Logos

> This is the final reminder to everyone contributing to this thread:
> 
> *Racism is a sensitive enough subject without us personalising our arguments and/or offending those who come from different backgrounds by various generalised remarks.*


And I'm going to tag on a wee little comment onto Scher's already succinctly put comment.. just because someone doesn't _agree_ with your opinion doesn't mean that they are being disrespectful to you. Please discuss the topic and not each other.

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## dramasnot6

I'm so sorry if this thread has caused any distress Scher and Logos, i assure you i intended it as a primarily conceptual discussion using personal experience only to illustrate a theory or point. Sincerest apologies, I'm sure no one intended to stir any conflict.

----------


## jon1jt

Ut oh, it's getting hot in here...i see the shiny padlock coming this way! but hold on just yet...i don't think it's necessary because the fact of the matter is some unsupported claims have been waged here against white people, particularly white men. and according to one poster, my position is full of "anger." (ad hominem attacks are often a sign that either you lost the argument or don't have one) the fact is, if i don't believe that white men oppress blacks or receive special privileges and so state my opinion on the matter in the form of a reasoned argument - and you still disagree and generalize rather than address my argument point by point, then go ahead and call me angry. but please allow me do my little soapbox speech and i'll go on my little way.  :FRlol:  

my contention is, if you're going to claim that whites are inherently oppressive by virtue of historical circumstance and offer up nothing else, then the claim collapses unto itself. ghideon points to slave ships and the American "institution" of slavery: 

*But the simple, unarguable, basic, objective truth is that there is only one group of human beings in the US who can point to chains and slave ships as the absolutely dominant way that people of their race came to America. Irish can not say it. Jews can not. Greeks can not. Chinese can not.*

then he goes on to take some of the hot air out the remark by saying how blacks aren't "better than other groups." huh?

why bring in this historical evidence then? it is most frequently used to silence the other side and has the added effect of placing the black community in a class of their own as a still oppressed people. how can anyone in good faith say that the United States hasn't tried to reverse the course of its sad history of slavery. from elementary school classrooms to public high schools, the slave issue and its legacy are discussed. african writers have been integrated into the curriculum - some ghideon mentioned, and i agree, they're great books, no denying that. most colleges "require" students to take multicultural electives in addition to World/US which is often top heavy with african/slavery themes. harvard and princeton brought about "African American Studies" and many public colleges followed. great! and there's black history month; the federal government recognizes Kwanza as a major holiday for blacks. There's Martin Luther King Day. (Fact: my undergraduate college recognized MLK as a holiday but not Washington's Birthday. wha? it's true. there's a Congressional Black Caucus (imagine a caucus labeled "white"?  :Alien: ) ) i've talked about affirmative action and how it's denied tens of thousands of whites a college seat in first and second-choice schools. 

next, ghideon accuses me of implying that blacks are unintelligent---why? because i praised the asian community's work ethic. i was praising a people who have overcome many obstacles (including racism---ghideon seems to neglect the fact that the US fought against Vietnam and Korea and a deep animosity existed in this country in the early 20th century with Chinese exclusion period and especially post-Vietnam. 

***ghideon mentioned howard zinn's name, but failed to account that Zinn has been an outspoken critic of Americans who don't know enough history, which also lends to the distortions that fuel racial conflict. Cornel West and David McCullough have said the same.***

ghideon says,
*I simply can not tolerate anybody making the implication, which you did, that black people must lack the inteligence, maturity or work-ethic and that is the cause of their condition.*  

fact of the matter is the black community is fragmenting and i think it's a good thing -- more and more blacks are dissociating themselves from the stereotypical black who bemoans the "system" and many have fled the cities to the suburbs with advanced degrees in hand to start a new life. and the other half labels them "sell outs" and they chastise black intellectuals who take a more nuanced view of the issue and say "enough already" about the slavery argument and "rights" (e.g. the ridicule of black scholar Shelby Steele).

*ghideon says: 
"I know that many white men do not "feel" priviliged but that does not mean they are not the recepients of privilige."*

wha?  :Crash:  


[I]there's a double standard when it comes to, on the one hand, blacks who, in ghideon fashion, invoke American slavery to link the past to the present day notion of a white supremacy, and on the other hand, whites who are tired of hearing the same old song that we're somehow privileged and want to make a case against it. 

I think a great deal of the problem is misperception. population figures don't lie. the fact of the matter is whites are the MAJORITY in the United States. (it's interesting that ghideon mentioned early on that whites were the MINORITY _globally_. it's disingenuous to make such a claim in the same breath one invokes American slavery to support his claim against white men oppressing blacks today. 



*Population of the United States by Race and Hispanic/Latino Origin, Census [CENTER]2000 and July 1, 2005*Race and Hispanic/Latino origin July 1, 2005, 
population1 Percent of 
population *Census 2000,* 
population Percent of 
population 
Total Population 296,410,404 100.0% 281,421,906 *100.0%* 
Single race 
*White* 237,854,954 80.2 211,460,626 *75.1* 
*Black or African American* 37,909,341 12.8 34,658,190 [B]*12.3 [/*B]
*American Indian* and Alaska Native 2,863,001 1.0 2,475,956 *0.9* 
*Asian* 12,687,472 4.3 10,242,998 *3.6* 
Native Hawaiian and other Pacific Islander 516,612 0.2 398,835 0.1 
*Two or more races* 4,579,024 1.5 6,826,228 *2.4* 
Some other race n.a.2 n.a. 15,359,073 5.5 
*Hispanic or Latino* 42,687,224 14.4 35,305,818 *12.5* 
Source: U.S. Census Bureau, National Population Estimates.

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## ghideon

> unsupported claims have been waged here against white people, particularly white men. and according to one poster, my position is full of "anger."


If I wrote that your posts are "full of anger" then I apologize. It would have been better if I had said "When reading your posts I become angry. There are some statements that you make that "seem" to be motivated by some strong feelings. I would not say, even if I may have done so in the past, "that your posts are full of anger." And even if they were that does not demand that I become angry by reading them.




> how can anyone in good faith say that the United States hasn't tried to reverse the course of its sad history of slavery.




I do not recall saying that this nation has not tried. But if I seemed to imply that then that was an error.

What I would say is that whatever efforts that the institutions and individuals of this nation have made in an effort to undo, reverse the course of its history of slavery have, up to this point, been inadequate.

I would say that because of the suffering I have seen around me I feel it is vital that people think about what others steps can be taken to once and for all end racism, or at the very least minimize its brutality and prevalence. I believe that there are other steps that can be taken. What they are specifically I do not know just yet. But one of the challenges in this post is that, at least for me, I see a huge problem every day in my ordinary life and I feel rather urgent about dealing with it effectively.

You have a different perspective. Neither one is bettern then the other. It is simply that if one person is passionately dedicated to ending what he sees as a crisis and he is talking to another individual who does not think there is a crisis or that what problems exist are not nearly as horrible... If that dynamic occurs it is going to be difficult to find common ground. I do believe there is common ground between people of very different backgrounds and that finding those areas of agreement is not only helpful in any discussion but vital when two or more parties have such different assesments of a situation.

I think we have are taught to hunt for what we disagree with when we are in discussions. This seems to be one of the basic modes of Western argument but I am begining to have serious doubts about its actual value in many cases. There is something to be said for critical thinking, logical arguments, building arguments and then having those arguments challenged. But there is also something to be said for developing modes of discourse that promote cooperation, that focus more on listening and less on speaking and that have ways to repatedly remind the participants in a discussion that what is of most importance is that despite the myriad of differences what we share is our humanness.
 :Wink:

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## Virgil

An interesting piece of commentary that I came across that is somewhat relevant to the discussion here. For those who may not know, Juan Williams is black and for the most part a fairly Liberal commentator.

Note: This borders on the political. If the moderators feel it's over the political line, feel free to delete it out.




> Say it loudly: Poor blacks can succeed 
> Talk them out of rut of despair
> 
> By JUAN WILLIAMS
> 
> Published on: 12/26/06
> 
> The black American middle class is under attack. And what is their sin? The fire is coming from black academics who argue that any middle-class black person calling on the black poor to take advantage of opportunities to get out of poverty is really ashamed of poor black people. And the charges can get personal. Critics are saying that black people such as Bill Cosby are caught up in a self-hating frenzy as they try to distance themselves from their poor brothers and sisters.
> 
> ...


http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/o...dwilliams.html

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## genoveva

> if you're going to claim that whites are inherently oppressive by virtue of historical circumstance and offer up nothing else, then the claim collapses unto itself. [/LEFT]


To clarify, I did not claim that "whites are inherently oppressive", but I did claim that there are patterns of a hierarchy of power, and having white skin color would put you higher on the hierarchy, and the darker your skin color, the lower you are placed on this hierarchy of power. Certainly something worth pondering. Why do these patterns of power occur? Can it be changed? Color of skin is not the only factor, as I mentioned before. Even in a group of all white skinned people, there is yet another pattern of power. Here is where class, physical ability, sexual orientation, etc. can illustrate the hierarchy.

This thread is filled with lots of passionate opinions, and lots of food for thought. Yes, race is a sensitive issue...

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## jon1jt

I'd appreciate it if anyone can tell me where they moved my thread, "Hip Hop Is Not Art." they should have moved it here since the first thread was an extension of this thread. 

I just love how they extract threads in this forum and then leave it up to members to figure out where they are.

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## Whifflingpin

I think I saw it in General Chat

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## Logos

Scher moved it to General Chat here:
http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=21181

and left a re-direct from where it was in Philosophical Literature:
http://www.online-literature.com/for...lay.php?f=2354
.
.

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## Scheherazade

> I'd appreciate it if anyone can tell me where they moved my thread, "Hip Hop Is Not Art." they should have moved it here since the first thread was an extension of this thread. 
> 
> I just love how they extract threads in this forum and then leave it up to members to figure out where they are.


As Logos has already pointed it out, 'Hip Hop is Not Art' thread has been moved to General Chat section now and there is a link redirecting members there.

(I had merged that thread with this one initially; however, after reading it, I realised that the new posts had little to do with the on-going discussion here and decided that having a separate thread in the General Chat section, where it will, hopefully, get more viewing and responses.)

As Moderators of this Forum, we do try our best to keep things as organised as possible for all the users (present and future) so that everyone will have an easy access to what they are searching for and we also keep our members informed. 

However, if we ever fail to do so, it is not because we have a love for making things confusing for others but simply because *gasps and screams* we forget or err.

Now, let's go back to discussing 'Internalised Racism'.

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## jon1jt

> As Logos has already pointed it out, 'Hip Hop is Not Art' thread has been moved to General Chat section now and there is a link redirecting members there.
> 
> (I had merged that thread with this one initially; however, after reading it, I realised that the new posts had little to do with the on-going discussion here and decided that having a separate thread in the General Chat section, where it will, hopefully, get more viewing and responses.)
> 
> As Moderators of this Forum, we do try our best to keep things as organised as possible for all the users (present and future) so that everyone will have an easy access to what they are searching for and we also keep our members informed. 
> 
> However, if we ever fail to do so, it is not because we have a love for making things confusing for others but simply because *gasps and screams* we forget or err.
> 
> Now, let's go back to discussing 'Internalised Racism'.


 :FRlol:  scheh - confusion is fun sometimes too! :FRlol:  
thanks everybody - whifling, logos - scheh for thread location. i thought maybe it was merged with some other thread on same that someone mentioned.

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