# Reading > Forum Book Club >  Independence Day Reading: One Flew Over Cuckoo's Nest

## Scheherazade

*

Ken Kesey (1935-2001)

We will be reading and discussing 

Ken Kesey's One Flew Over Cuckoo's Nest 

during the Independence Day week.

Please post your questions and impressions in this thread.

Happy reading!*
Book Club Procedures

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## Turk

Oh that's good. I was thinking to read this book.

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## genoveva

I hear Sometimes a Great Notion is even better than Cuckoo's Nest. That'll have to be my next Kesey read.

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## Brigitte

Off to get the book tomorrow, but I regret to inform that this week is my Harry Potter re-read week. I'm going to start next Sunday! I hope to enjoy this novel.

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## Scheherazade

Got the book from the library this afternoon and will be starting tonight!  :Biggrin:

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## Weisinheimer

I just borrowed the book from my sister. I'll start it...soon.

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## Turk

Why nobody votes it!? Vote it or face my anger!

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## motherhubbard

I want to finish first! I'm only about a quarter of the way through. How can I judge until I've finished?

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## NickAdams

I hope to finish Molloy before Friday, so I can read One Flew Over during the weekend. 
Molloy exposes the absurdities of the first-person narrative and I don't think I can ever read the form with my former naivety, but I won't miss out on a good novel because of it.

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## katie9trent

Don't know if I spelled it right but it was a very depressing depressing movie. I would rather watch the Titanic with Leonardo Decaprio. Better movie.

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## kilted exile

I was made read this in high school, didnt much care for it. Was still better than the movie version however....

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## Brigitte

> Got the book from the library this afternoon and will be starting tonight!


I got the book this afternoon, too. I feel so healthy.. I walked to the library with my aunt and my 6-month old cousin, Midori. (: She's such a cutie. I got my library card today, too. I normally buy books, but since... I don't know if I'll like the book I just checked it out.

I think I can manage more than one book at a time.  :FRlol:  It's Harry Potter 3 and this. (:

Wow... I'm so off-topic. >>;;

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## quasimodo1

Personally, I don't know how this book could be depressing. The overall message is totally positive. The ending is life-affirming because death is preferred to a vegitative state. You have a main character who will not accept insanity as a judgement or a verdict...just an altered state of life. quasimodo1

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## Turk

I didn't read the novel yet, but movie was quite inspring and positive at the end. Also one of best performances of Jack Nicholson (possibly after the Shining).

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## Scheherazade

Started reading.

After struggling a little in the first couple of pages trying to figure out who the narrator is and who everyone else, I am hooked! It is hard to put down and love how McMurphy bursts into the scene.

Also love how the Chief describes the daily routine of the ward in terms of machinery.

Re. movie: I watched the movie about 25 years ago and I think I was too young to appreciate it. I am glad that I don't remember much of it.

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## Turk

Do you want me to tell you the end?

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## Nossa

This sounds like an interesting story...I'll try finding it tomorrow and start reading it.

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## motherhubbard

I'm glad someone else has started. I'm just under half way done. I love the machinery, but I think it's more than that to the chief. The more I read the more I see that he believes that there is actual machinery. It makes me wonder how easy it is to let an idea become fact in your own mind. I also have to wonder if the nurse means to be so demoralizing, or is it in her hard to do what she believes is best. I think our window into the situation has it's own tint.

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## Scheherazade

> The more I read the more I see that he believes that there is actual machinery. It makes me wonder how easy it is to let an idea become fact in your own mind.


Agree with you that the Chief believes that there is an actual machine/robot controlling things. When he mentions that once he opened up one of his medication capsules after pretending to have swallowed it, he says he saw a tiny machine inside the dust for a fleeting second.

I was also wondering how it would feel to have the line between what is real and what is imaginary blurred... Once you start believing that what you are experiencing is real, how do you get out of that loop? How can you tell which one is which?

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## kilted exile

I think one of the reasons I disliked the book was because I found McMurphy to be a hero with really no redeemable qualities, just about everything he does is because he wants it anyway. If he didnt want it I doubt he would have done anything out of the goodness of his own heart.

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## genoveva

> Personally, I don't know how this book could be depressing. The overall message is totally positive.


So...you must have already read the book? Well, I've just re-read it, which is not really fair for everyone racing to be the first one done, so don't count me in that race...I recently re-read the book before I knew about the reading but am looking forward to the discussion.

Although there is a positive message(s) to be found in the novel, I do think Kesey puts forth many depressing realities about life. Is your cup half full or half empty? Will look forward to elaborating when most people are done reading.

Re the movie, Kesey didn't want it made into a movie afterall because the movie has a different narrator than the novel! Of course we all love Jack Nicolson but yes, the book is better.




> I think one of the reasons I disliked the book was because I found McMurphy to be a hero with really no redeemable qualities, just about everything he does is because he wants it anyway.


I can see your point of view. However, he does raise the spirits of the patients in the hospital and increases their quality of life if only for a snapshot in time. This is a redeemable quality, isn't it? Even if he wanted the attention...

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## kilted exile

> I can see your point of view. However, he does raise the spirits of the patients in the hospital and increases their quality of life if only for a snapshot in time. This is a redeemable quality, isn't it? Even if he wanted the attention...


No, I dont see that as redeemable. To me its still self-centred, and I had a real hard time liking him. (I dont actually expect many to agree with me about this, my high school teacher refused to mark the essay 'cos she said my premise was innacurrate).

I will address things more fully once people have finished reading.

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## genoveva

> No, I dont see that as redeemable. To me its still self-centred, and I had a real hard time liking him. (I dont actually expect many to agree with me about this


Okay, but he did have a zest for life, didn't he? That must be a redeemable quality, huh?




> I was also wondering how it would feel to have the line between what is real and what is imaginary blurred... Once you start believing that what you are experiencing is real, how do you get out of that loop? How can you tell which one is which?


Yes, this is an interesting thread in the story. Real vs. imaginary. Schizophrenics, point of view, psychedelics- who knows what is real? How can we trust the narrator to present reality, or can we? Whose reality? Is the nurse's real world real? Is the patients world real? Is one more real than anothers?

Do people want to "get out of that loop" of what they believe?

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## motherhubbard

I'm trying to be objective in my view of each character instead of solely relying on the perspective of Chief. There are certain things about nurse Ratched that make me wonder. How does her military training influence her management of the patients? They just do things differently and it isn’t like Sunday school. The loud music makes me suspicious of her. Bombarding someone with loud music is a tactic used to break people down (Like they used in Waco, TX). Why is she so unyielding, is their care her main interest or is it complete authority?

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## kilted exile

> Okay, but he did have a zest for life, didn't he? That must be a redeemable quality, huh?


That depends on how the zest for life is applied.




> I'm trying to be objective in my view of each character instead of solely relying on the perspective of Chief. There are certain things about nurse Ratched that make me wonder. How does her military training influence her management of the patients? They just do things differently and it isnt like Sunday school. The loud music makes me suspicious of her. Bombarding someone with loud music is a tactic used to break people down (Like they used in Waco, TX). Why is she so unyielding, is their care her main interest or is it complete authority?


Regarding Nurse Ratched, I dont see her as particularly bad - more misguided. I think she truly believes what she is doing will help the patients, however her techniques are outdated (only mildly at time of the novel, but completely now) I see her as the stereotypical battleaxe nurse. Completely sure in her convictions but really doing more harm than good.

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## Scheherazade

Talking of Nurse Ratched, do you think her name is a play on the word 'wretched'? Their pronunciations are quite similar I think (need a native to confirm me here, please!)?

Even though I am only 1/3 through the book, I think I agree with Kilted regarding the Nurse. So far, I don't think she has shown any signs of intentional 'harm'.

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## kilted exile

Yes, they are similar. Also there is a tie in to the machinery part with her name also being so much like ratchet.

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## Scheherazade

Hey, didn't know that word (can't say I know what it is even after looking it up in the dictionary  :Tongue: )! Thanks, Kilted!  :Smile:

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## Scheherazade

> Yes, this is an interesting thread in the story. Real vs. imaginary. Schizophrenics, point of view, psychedelics- who knows what is real? How can we trust the narrator to present reality, or can we? Whose reality? Is the nurse's real world real? Is the patients world real? Is one more real than anothers?
> 
> Do people want to "get out of that loop" of what they believe?


I think this is one of the aspects that make the book very interesting. One cannot help getting carried away and take his word for the happenings but, often enough, we are reminded that the Chief should not be relied on: The constant references to fog and warped time concept, eg. Also he seems to know things he should not; eg, the story about one of the carer's childhood and reason for his so-called hate. I really like this passage (at the end of Chief's dream):


> Right and left ther eare other things happening just as bad - crazy, horrible things too goofy and oulandish to cry about and too much true to laugh about - but the fog is getting thick enough I don't have to watch. And somebody's tugging at my arm. I know already what will happen: somebody'll drag me out of the fog and we'll be back on the ward and there won't be a sign of what went on tongiht and if I was fool enough to try and tell anybody it they'd say, Idiot, you just had a nightmare; things as crazy as big machine room down in the bowels of a dam where people get cut up by robot workers don't exist.
> 
> But if they don't exist, how can a man see them?


On a separate note, the Night Nurse's reaction to McMurphy is one of the funniest things I have read: 


> "Stay back! Patients aren't allowed to enter the - Oh, stay back, I'm a _Catholic_!"

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## Turk

> Talking of Nurse Ratched, do you think her name is a play on the word 'wretched'? Their pronunciations are quite similar I think (need a native to confirm me here, please!)?
> 
> Even though I am only 1/3 through the book, I think I agree with Kilted regarding the Nurse. So far, I don't think she has shown any signs of intentional 'harm'.


I didn't read the book yet; i will soon. But in the movie she was a controlling freak, who thinks herself as boss of ill people and trying to dominate and control them with no respect to their personalities. From this oint of view, McMurphy may be a hero with a redeemable quality. He rebelled to symbol of harsh authority and this makes him someone who have redeemable quality. As i remember McMurphy seem to be self-centered, but it was just looking like his outlooking, from the inside he was a good guy and that's why he tried to attack the nurse when the nurse was a reason of suicide of one of other ills.

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## genoveva

> she was a controlling freak, who thinks herself as boss of ill people and trying to dominate and control them with no respect to their personalities. From this oint of view, McMurphy may be a hero with a redeemable quality. He rebelled to symbol of harsh authority and this makes him someone who have redeemable quality.


Yes, McMurphy standing up against authority (the nurse) makes him a hero in my opinion. This relationship is symbolic of the masses (citizens) standing up against a too controlling government.

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## kilted exile

> I didn't read the book yet; i will soon. But in the movie she was a controlling freak, who thinks herself as boss of ill people and trying to dominate and control them with no respect to their personalities. From this oint of view, McMurphy may be a hero with a redeemable quality. He rebelled to symbol of harsh authority and this makes him someone who have redeemable quality. As i remember McMurphy seem to be self-centered, but it was just looking like his outlooking, from the inside he was a good guy and that's why he tried to attack the nurse when the nurse was a reason of suicide of one of other ills.





> Yes, McMurphy standing up against authority (the nurse) makes him a hero in my opinion. This relationship is symbolic of the masses (citizens) standing up against a too controlling government.


I think we need to look at the reasons why he is rebelling. He is not doing it because he likes the patients. He starts doing it for a bet & then continues doing it because he enjoys getting a rise out of her. He is not another ideological Spartacus standing up for the weak against the forces of oppression.

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## motherhubbard

> Yes, McMurphy standing up against authority (the nurse) makes him a hero in my opinion. This relationship is symbolic of the masses (citizens) standing up against a too controlling government.


I dont think that standing up to authority makes one a hero. If my kids stand up to me they sure dont gain hero status. Im sure at times I seem like nurse Ratched to them. I think that on the whole, in spite of overindulging, hes a basically good guy. He wouldnt intentionally hurt people unless he felt they had it coming. He would prefer to take from the rich over the poor. Even though he has superficial relationships with women, I dont think he hates women or misuses them. He has great pleasure in life no matter how crappy things get he finds pleasure, even if it is base pleasure. That may be a redeemable quality.

A lot of people dont deal well with what they do or see in war. I think Chief was a very sensitive person who was himself injured when he saw others treated unjustly. I think it is very interesting that he used to be afraid of being lost and vulnerable in the fog, but now he embraces it as a security blanket. I think he is very insightful and intuitive, even if he doesnt see things realistically he understands.

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## Turk

> I think we need to look at the reasons why he is rebelling. He is not doing it because he likes the patients. He starts doing it for a bet & then continues doing it because he enjoys getting a rise out of her. He is not another ideological Spartacus standing up for the weak against the forces of oppression.


I didn't say just rebelling makes him a hero. But at least in movie he wasn't seem like someone just rebels for enjoy. I said i didn't read the novel; i will, but in movie he was attacking the nurse; because, because of nurse one of patients got killed himself. If McMurphy would be a rebel just for his enjoyment and doesn't care about patients, then he wouldn't attack nurse for that reason.

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## kilted exile

> I didn't say just rebelling makes him a hero. But at least in movie he wasn't seem like someone just rebels for enjoy. I said i didn't read the novel; i will, but in movie he was attacking the nurse; because, because of nurse one of patients got killed himself. If McMurphy would be a rebel just for his enjoyment and doesn't care about patients, then he wouldn't attack nurse for that reason.


I dont want to get to into the specifics of that incident you refer incase people are unfamiliar with the story, but I will address it once folk finish reading.

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## motherhubbard

> I think we need to look at the reasons why he is rebelling. He is not doing it because he likes the patients. He starts doing it for a bet & then continues doing it because he enjoys getting a rise out of her. He is not another ideological Spartacus standing up for the weak against the forces of oppression.


This may be a spoiler,

I have gotten further into the book and he has started challenging the nurse the again. I think he started again, in spite of the trouble it will surely bring him, because he sees these fellows as totally crushed and unable to stand up for themselves. I think that he sees his own shortcomings, but still thinks hes OK. He has a song in his heart, he is joyful, he enjoys life, and he wont let them take his  stones. The others see their shortcomings and cant live with it. I think that to him this is the biggest problem the acutes have. They let people have power over them and he would never allow that. I think he thinks that if he shows them they dont have to take it they wont and will have more confidence and self-respect. I think in this way he is sacrificing himself, or his freedom, for the sake of the others. 

At least I think that is what he thinks right now. Im about 4/5th of the way done.

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## kilted exile

> This may be a spoiler,
> 
> I have gotten further into the book and he has started challenging the nurse the again. I think he started again, in spite of the trouble it will surely bring him, because he sees these fellows as totally crushed and unable to stand up for themselves. I think that he sees his own shortcomings, but still thinks hes OK. He has a song in his heart, he is joyful, he enjoys life, and he wont let them take his  stones. The others see their shortcomings and cant live with it. I think that to him this is the biggest problem the acutes have. They let people have power over them and he would never allow that. I think he thinks that if he shows them they dont have to take it they wont and will have more confidence and self-respect. I think in this way he is sacrificing himself, or his freedom, for the sake of the others. 
> 
> At least I think that is what he thinks right now. Im about 4/5th of the way done.



Mother, you're gonna have to refresh my memory on the exact incidents you are referring to (read it what is now 8/9 years ago & working from memory)

This does touch on a point I want to address also, Kesey's trivialisation of the problems faced by the acutes and underlying opinion that there is nothing wrong with them & they are in someways "better" than normal people because they refuse to conform to society.

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## genoveva

> This does touch on a point I want to address also, Kesey's trivialisation of the problems faced by the acutes and underlying opinion that there is nothing wrong with them & they are in someways "better" than normal people because they refuse to conform to society.


I don't think Kesey trivializes the problems faced by the acutes, (nor are better than "normal" people) instead, I think he alludes to the fact that the acutes have problems that are not uncommon in people who are not in a mental institition. It is a good study to consider each character and why they are actually in the institution. They are all voluntary except for McMurphy. This is an important fact.

McMurphy does point out "faults" in the patients, and tries to encourage them to overcome them. One is that most patients have a loss of assertiveness when it comes to expressing their opinion. McMurphy tries to encourage the patients to speak their truth which is obviously a very hard thing to do in front of the nurse since she overpowers them with her authority to the point of mindless conformity. The patients are reduced to sheep, following the herd rather than expressing their individuality.




> I think in this way he is sacrificing himself, or his freedom, for the sake of the others.


Yes, one could certainly make an argument that McMurphy is a Christ figure in this story.




> I dont think that standing up to authority makes one a hero. If my kids stand up to me they sure dont gain hero status. Im sure at times I seem like nurse Ratched to them.


No, you are right- just standing up to authority doesn't automatically make one a hero, but standing up to authority in the context where you find that authority is repressing others' rights and committing acts of abuse and violence and injustice, then yes, that would make one a hero. This is exactly what McMurphy does.

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## motherhubbard

I just finished the book. I’m not adding it to the read again list, but I thought it was ok. At the end it occurred to me that during both the movie and the play I left during the EST. I’m such a baby. 

possible spoiler

As for the hero status of McMurphy, I’m still kind of wishy-washy. There were certainly several Biblical references, 12 followers - bed shaped like a cross…But I don’t know. I’m glad he won, I’m glad the men found their courage.
At the end Nurse Ratched reminded me of a mother with Munchausen by Proxy. They are all better, so much better and she has to take them down a notch. She needs them to be sick.

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## motherhubbard

any other thoughts?

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## kilted exile

Now that people seem to have finished reading I have some other points I want to address/clarify why I believe. Hopefully will get it done and posted by the end of Saturday.

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## bouquin

> Started reading.
> 
> After struggling a little in the first couple of pages trying to figure out who the narrator is and who everyone else, I am hooked! It is hard to put down and love how McMurphy bursts into the scene.
> 
> Also love how the Chief describes the daily routine of the ward in terms of machinery.
> 
> Re. movie: I watched the movie about 25 years ago and I think I was too young to appreciate it. I am glad that I don't remember much of it.




I'm about halfway through the book, I think it's a good read. Although I don't care much for the parts where Bromden is into his hallucinations.

Describing things in terms of machinery seems to be in keeping with how the patients and even the hospital staff are being made to function like machines, like clockwork.

I was still a child when the movie came out, I went to watch it with my parents. I hardly remember it; and I don't think I even understood much of the story at that time.

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## quasimodo1

Referencing the movie, many commentators on Jack Nicholson's role have said that he has to have a little crazy in him to play it so well. This seems to have helped him in many other films. In this particular rendition of the book, he injects an element of sane and crazy that is the catalyst for all the other actors to play off of. This is the man's genious...that he can employ his personal exteme to create an atmosphere at once sane and insane. When he intoduces all the patients on the fishing boat as doctors, it is believeable and to the authority...probable. quasimodo1

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## kilted exile

Nicholson is good in the film (when is he not) The main problem with the film (& the fishing scene in particular) is that is completely different from the book.

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## Brigitte

Well I started reading this a few days ago, but I don't want to read too many of the posts here in case something gets spoiled! :x!! I'm loving it so far.

I love how reality is spun and turned into this other reality. Love ittt. (:

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## genoveva

What I'm curious about is...do you think Kesey is being racist and misogynist in this novel, and why? For all I love Ken Kesey, these two elements in this novel trouble me the most.

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## bouquin

> I just finished the book. Im not adding it to the read again list, but I thought it was ok. At the end it occurred to me that during both the movie and the play I left during the EST. Im such a baby. 
> 
> possible spoiler
> 
> As for the hero status of McMurphy, Im still kind of wishy-washy. There were certainly several Biblical references, 12 followers - bed shaped like a crossBut I dont know. Im glad he won, Im glad the men found their courage.
> At the end Nurse Ratched reminded me of a mother with Munchausen by Proxy. They are all better, so much better and she has to take them down a notch. She needs them to be sick.




My take on Nurse Ratched is that she equates her job to being able to wield power over her patients (and even over her colleagues). Her aim in executing her duties is to establish order, conformity, discipline, control. There is no humane side to her being a nurse.

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## motherhubbard

> What I'm curious about is...do you think Kesey is being racist and misogynist in this novel, and why? For all I love Ken Kesey, these two elements in this novel trouble me the most.


I dont think that Kesey was being raciest or misogynic at all. I think that the story was set in a time when that was the way things were. I dont think white people thought twice about calling black people darkie or Sam. Women, especially women with authority were b*****s and should go home to their true calling and purpose in life and stop trying to wear the pants. McMurphy was a poorly educated, crude, base, alpha male of that time. Additionally, I think that at the time the Irish still harbored a greater prejudice against blacks left over from the days that black slaves were held at a higher value than migrant Irish workers. Had McMurphy been a gentlemen the story wouldnt have been the same.

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## genoveva

> I think that at the time the Irish still harbored a greater prejudice against blacks left over from the days that black slaves were held at a higher value than migrant Irish workers.


But, not only does McMurphy utter racist and misogynist remarks, but the author describes the "black boys" in a manner that seem racist. It is interesting that Kesey uses a Native American as the narrator and integrates racial overtones (regarding Blacks). It is simply excusable to say that it is a sign of the times that the "black boys" are described in the way that they are? And too, is it just a sign of the times that the women portrayed in Cuckoo's Nest are either "ball-breaking" women or prostitutes? Or, do these sentiments echo the author's beliefs?

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## bouquin

> No, I dont see that as redeemable. To me its still self-centred, and I had a real hard time liking him. (I dont actually expect many to agree with me about this, my high school teacher refused to mark the essay 'cos she said my premise was innacurrate).
> 
> I will address things more fully once people have finished reading.




In Part 3, Chief Bromden describes McMurphy as follows:

_He'd shown us what a little bravado and courage could accomplish, and we thought he'd taught us how to use it. All the way to the coast we had fun pretending to be brave. When people at a stop light would stare at us and our green uniforms we'd do just like he did, sit up straight and strong and tough-looking and put a big grin on our face and stare straight back at them..._  

McMurphy may not be considered a hero by people like Nurse Ratched but he definitely sways a positive and extraordinary influence on Chief Bromden and the other patients. One commendable trait that struck me right away with regards McMurphy is his ability to laugh; and he is quite concerned that his mates do not have - or have lost - this gift, he tries to resurrect this valuable faculty that has been extinguished in them.

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## genoveva

> One commendable trait that struck me right away with regards McMurphy is his ability to laugh; and he is quite concerned that his mates do not have - or have lost - this gift, he tries to resurrect this valuable faculty that has been extinguished in them.


Good point! Observing who laughs, and how definitely has some symbolism. McMurphy is not one who allows himself to suppress emotions.

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## motherhubbard

> But, not only does McMurphy utter racist and misogynist remarks, but the author describes the "black boys" in a manner that seem racist. It is interesting that Kesey uses a Native American as the narrator and integrates racial overtones (regarding Blacks). It is simply excusable to say that it is a sign of the times that the "black boys" are described in the way that they are? And too, is it just a sign of the times that the women portrayed in Cuckoo's Nest are either "ball-breaking" women or prostitutes? Or, do these sentiments echo the author's beliefs?




Bromden describes the boys with racist terms, and the women as ball-breakers. I think that it was typical to talk that way at the time. I know people who still watch Archie Bunker or that still use terms like little colored boy thinking it is polite. Its easy to think that white people are prejudice against Natives, or blacks or anyone who is not white, but there was also racial tension between Irish and blacks and Natives and blacks, and Natives and Irish, and Hispanics and everyone, too. I hate to say that it was the authors beliefs although it could have been. Most people of that generation still harbor some kind of idea that white people are somehow genetically superior in someway. 

Also, not every woman was portrayed so negatively. The nurse in disturbed was very nice, the nurse with the birthmark was troubled, but not a ball-buster. And remember that the black boys that made the cut and met the nurses standards were much worse that the others.

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## kilted exile

*WARNING: SPOILERS*

Ok, finally got some time to address these points correctly & have pulled my copy out of the box it has been in for the last 8yrs.




> I don't think Kesey trivializes the problems faced by the acutes, (nor are better than "normal" people) instead, I think he alludes to the fact that the acutes have problems that are not uncommon in people who are not in a mental institition. It is a good study to consider each character and why they are actually in the institution. They are all voluntary except for McMurphy. This is an important fact.


An example of what I am referring to about the patients being better than people on the outside can be seen near the beginning of the book when Chief is talking about Ruckly. The Hospital considers him to be a failure because instead of fixing him has instead been turned into a chronic due to mistakes in treatment. Kesey (through the chief) suggests that he is better in his altered state than if the treatment had worked and turned him into "the sweetest, nicest, best-behaved thing you ever saw.... a hat pulled low over the face of a sleep-walker wandering around in a happy dream." Instead of how he is currently "sitting there fumbling and drooling over his picture"



> McMurphy does point out "faults" in the patients, and tries to encourage them to overcome them. One is that most patients have a loss of assertiveness when it comes to expressing their opinion. McMurphy tries to encourage the patients to speak their truth which is obviously a very hard thing to do in front of the nurse since she overpowers them with her authority to the point of mindless conformity. The patients are reduced to sheep, following the herd rather than expressing their individuality.


Yes the patients have an issue with assertiveness, but this is not the only issue they have and they were not made like that by the nurse. They had been like that previously on the outside as well. McMurphy believes what would really help them would (to put not too fine a point on it) be a good kick up the backside. He doesnt recognise the underlying issues however and this is partly to blame also for Bibbits commiting suicide. McMurphy doesnt realise Bibbit's issues with emotional attachment (eg his claims of love for the hooker who is sleeping with him because McMurphy pays him to) and Bibbit is not capable of dealing with the thoughts and emotions rationally, it is all a case of too much too soon 




> .....just standing up to authority doesn't automatically make one a hero, but standing up to authority in the context where you find that authority is repressing others' rights and committing acts of abuse and violence and injustice, then yes, that would make one a hero. This is exactly what McMurphy does.


Kesey throughout the novel alludes to the fact that you should stand up to authority at all times however, context is really unimportant to a lot of the happenings. At what point does McMurphy become a hero? Is he always one, midway through or only at the end when he attacks the nurse after Billy commits suicide (something he must also accept some responsibility for.




> In Part 3, Chief Bromden describes McMurphy as follows:
> 
> _He'd shown us what a little bravado and courage could accomplish, and we thought he'd taught us how to use it. All the way to the coast we had fun pretending to be brave. When people at a stop light would stare at us and our green uniforms we'd do just like he did, sit up straight and strong and tough-looking and put a big grin on our face and stare straight back at them..._  
> 
> McMurphy may not be considered a hero by people like Nurse Ratched but he definitely sways a positive and extraordinary influence on Chief Bromden and the other patients. One commendable trait that struck me right away with regards McMurphy is his ability to laugh; and he is quite concerned that his mates do not have - or have lost - this gift, he tries to resurrect this valuable faculty that has been extinguished in them.


I have addresssed some of this in an earlier part of the post, but another thought I have is how concerned is he really about the others? Does he do anything for the patients that he does not gain from in some way with respect to making them laugh? If he was more benevolent I would not have an issue but everything is for his gain 




> Good point! Observing who laughs, and how definitely has some symbolism. McMurphy is not one who allows himself to suppress emotions.


Surely there are times tho' when we should suppress our emotions?

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## genoveva

> [B][U][SIZE="4"]
> Yes the patients have an issue with assertiveness, but this is not the only issue they have and they were not made like that by the nurse. They had been like that previously on the outside as well. McMurphy believes what would really help them would (to put not too fine a point on it) be a good kick up the backside. He doesnt recognise the underlying issues however and this is partly to blame also for Bibbits commiting suicide. McMurphy doesnt realise Bibbit's issues with emotional attachment (eg his claims of love for the hooker who is sleeping with him because McMurphy pays him to) and Bibbit is not capable of dealing with the thoughts and emotions rationally, it is all a case of too much too soon.


All of this may be true, however, one cannot discuss this episode without emphasizing that the nurse is ultimately the reason why Bibbit commits suicide. It is the nurse who makes Bibbit ashamed of himself and she threatens to tell his mother about him sleeping with the hooker. The nurse and Bibbit's mother both symbolize controlling, threatening, fear invoking women. Who is to say that Bibbit didn't have a genuine good time with the hooker? Perhaps it was the only real enjoyable experiences he ever had with a woman. Nurse Ratched was there to spoil it. And, she used something pleasurable to him against him. She made him commit suicide out of fear for facing his mother about his sexual experience.




> [B][U][SIZE="4"]
> An example of what I am referring to about the patients being better than people on the outside can be seen near the beginning of the book when Chief is talking about Ruckly. The Hospital considers him to be a failure because instead of fixing him has instead been turned into a chronic due to mistakes in treatment. Kesey (through the chief) suggests that he is better in his altered state than if the treatment had worked and turned him into "the sweetest, nicest, best-behaved thing you ever saw.... a hat pulled low over the face of a sleep-walker wandering around in a happy dream." Instead of how he is currently "sitting there fumbling and drooling over his picture"


I think Kesey's main statement is that mental patients are perhaps better off without any treatment at all, or that these particular patients are worse off after being treated by the institution. For example, is McMurphy better off or worse off after his lobotomy?

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## bouquin

> I think Kesey's main statement is that mental patients are perhaps better off without any treatment at all, or that these particular patients are worse off after being treated by the institution. For example, is McMurphy better off or worse off after his lobotomy?




My question is did McMurphy's behavior warrant such drastic intervention. After he attacks an aide, they give him shock therapy three times in the span of one week. He assaults Big Nurse, they remove the frontal lobe of his brain! I wonder if instances like these used to really happen in actual mental institutions.

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## kilted exile

> All of this may be true, however, one cannot discuss this episode without emphasizing that the nurse is ultimately the reason why Bibbit commits suicide. It is the nurse who makes Bibbit ashamed of himself and she threatens to tell his mother about him sleeping with the hooker. The nurse and Bibbit's mother both symbolize controlling, threatening, fear invoking women. Who is to say that Bibbit didn't have a genuine good time with the hooker? Perhaps it was the only real enjoyable experiences he ever had with a woman. Nurse Ratched was there to spoil it. And, she used something pleasurable to him against him. She made him commit suicide out of fear for facing his mother about his sexual experience.


Whilst it is true that the Nurse acts terribly, I do not feel this excuses McMurphy actions or that we should forget about them and focus solely on the Nurse. McMUrphy must take his share of the blame as well.





> I think Kesey's main statement is that mental patients are perhaps better off without any treatment at all, or that these particular patients are worse off after being treated by the institution. For example, is McMurphy better off or worse off after his lobotomy?


In the example I pointed out however, it is fairly explicit that Ruckly is far better of as a result of the treatment failing and turning him into a fumbling, dribbling wreck who will be confined to the institution for the rest of his life, than if it had succeeded and he had been released to get on with the rest of his life




> My question is did McMurphy's behavior warrant such drastic intervention. After he attacks an aide, they give him shock therapy three times in the span of one week. He assaults Big Nurse, they remove the frontal lobe of his brain! I wonder if instances like these used to really happen in actual mental institutions.


I think that similar treatments (though exaggerated by Kesey) did used to happen in facilities like the one in the story.

Regarding whether McMurphy warranted such intervention. No, he didnt. However it should be remembered that he recieved it for a lot more than just the attack on the aids & Nurse. He had tricked the institution into believing he was a violent sociopath in order to get out of having to be on the work farm because he wanted an easy life, and after arriving at the hospital did everything he could to make himself a pain in the neck of the staff. Because of his history of violence/troublemaking he was always going to be on a shorter leash than other inmates

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## bouquin

> *WARNING: SPOILERS*
> 
> Ok, finally got some time to address these points correctly & have pulled my copy out of the box it has been in for the last 8yrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What did McMurphy gain after he attacked Washington the aide (in trying to shield George from the "cautionary cleansing")? 

What did McMurphy gain when he attacked Big Nurse in outrage for Bibbit's death?

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## bouquin

> *WARNING: SPOILERS*
> 
> 
> 
> Yes the patients have an issue with assertiveness, but this is not the only issue they have and they were not made like that by the nurse. They had been like that previously on the outside as well. McMurphy believes what would really help them would (to put not too fine a point on it) be a good kick up the backside. He doesnt recognise the underlying issues however and this is partly to blame also for Bibbits commiting suicide. McMurphy doesnt realise Bibbit's issues with emotional attachment (eg his claims of love for the hooker who is sleeping with him because McMurphy pays him to) and Bibbit is not capable of dealing with the thoughts and emotions rationally, it is all a case of too much too soon


Firstly, I don't remember reading about McMurphy paying Bibbit to sleep with Candy the hooker.

Secondly, Bibbit did not commit suicide as a consequence of any emotional attachment he may have started to nurture towards Candy. The poor fellow committed suicide because he had an abnormal emotional rapport with his mother and he could not face up to the consequence of _that._ I believe that if Big Nurse had not said that she would tell Bibbit's mom - any other punishment but that - he would not have killed himself.

Thirdly, I would not consider Bibbit's losing his virginity at age 31 as a "case of too much too soon."

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## genoveva

> Firstly, I don't remember reading about McMurphy paying Bibbit to sleep with Candy the hooker.
> 
> Secondly, Bibbit did not commit suicide as a consequence of any emotional attachment he may have started to nurture towards Candy. The poor fellow committed suicide because he had an abnormal emotional rapport with his mother and he could not face up to the consequence of _that._ I believe that if Big Nurse had not said that she would tell Bibbit's mom - any other punishment but that - he would not have killed himself.
> 
> Thirdly, I would not consider Bibbit's losing his virginity at age 31 as a "case of too much too soon."


I completely agree with you. I think your first point may have been a typo on the original poster's end. Further, the diagnosis of Bibbit having an "emotional attachment" issue is not discussed within the book. This is purely the original poster's diagnosis; one that I disagree with.

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## _Shannon_

> No, I dont see that as redeemable. To me its still self-centred, and I had a real hard time liking him. (I dont actually expect many to agree with me about this, my high school teacher refused to mark the essay 'cos she said my premise was innacurrate).
> 
> I will address things more fully once people have finished reading.


I think that can lead to an interesting discussion of the anti-hero...

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## _Shannon_

> My take on Nurse Ratched is that she equates her job to being able to wield power over her patients (and even over her colleagues). Her aim in executing her duties is to establish order, conformity, discipline, control. There is no humane side to her being a nurse.


Or possibly that she equates " order, conformity, discipline, control" with humaneness?? There is a long tradition in post WWII America elevating the techincal over and above the natural. It is still alive and well in America- the sense that that which can be measured and dispensed and regulated is preferred above non-quantatative, natural functions with far broader terms of normalacy- or even tolerance for that which is outside the norm. 

I think this is particularly true in regards to present day mental health, poignantly demonstrated in how many children are on medication for ADD, how many people are on medication for depression, etc.

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## bouquin

> Or possibly that she equates " order, conformity, discipline, control" with humaneness?? There is a long tradition in post WWII America elevating the techincal over and above the natural. It is still alive and well in America- the sense that that which can be measured and dispensed and regulated is preferred above non-quantatative, natural functions with far broader terms of normalacy- or even tolerance for that which is outside the norm. 
> 
> I think this is particularly true in regards to present day mental health, poignantly demonstrated in how many children are on medication for ADD, how many people are on medication for depression, etc.




Well yes, it could very well be that Big Nurse, from her own point of view, equates rigid conformity and control with humaneness. We never get to hear her side, though. In the story she comes across as a manipulative, unfeeling and unsympathetic character without any sense of benevolence.

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## NickAdams

Sometimes I laugh, but I mostly roll my eyes. It's just a poor narrative. Might have been better using third-person limited. I thought the best part, prose wise, was the incident between Mcmurphy and the young nurse: when she drops the pills.

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## genoveva

Something that I find interesting about the history of this novel is that it is just that, Kesey's first novel, and that he wrote it largely while experimenting with LSD in a controlled environment, and that many of the episodes were inspired by his experience of actually working in a mental hospital.

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## NickAdams

> Something that I find interesting about the history of this novel is that it is just that, Kesey's first novel, and that he wrote it largely while experimenting with LSD in a controlled environment, and that many of the episodes were inspired by his experience of actually working in a mental hospital.


It seems like he wrote after the trip, rather than on it; the latter would have been a better read.

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## NickAdams

I pushed myself and finished the damned thing.

The only thing I took from this was a possible reference used in the 1996 film 12 monkeys- I might be reaching.




> ... upset bad by what a tough bunch of monkeys ... Mcmurphy lead the twelve of us.


Some might say Billy is the Judas to Mcmurphy's Christ, but Judas' betrayal was not motivated by cowardice. But this is to be an allusion and not a retelling of the Gospels.

I only see minor differences between Mcmurphy and The Big Nurse. Male/Female; Agressive/Passive; Controling/Controling; Influential/Influential; Self-centered/Self-centered. The are not complete opposites and that's the conflict- two Chiefs and not one will be an indian, pun intended. 




> I'm glad someone else has started. I'm just under half way done. I love the machinery, but I think it's more than that to the chief. The more I read the more I see that he believes that there is actual machinery. It makes me wonder how easy it is to let an idea become fact in your own mind. I also have to wonder if the nurse means to be so demoralizing, or is it in her hard to do what she believes is best. I think our window into the situation has it's own tint.


The Chief has a few gears missing from his clock.




> I was also wondering how it would feel to have the line between what is real and what is imaginary blurred... Once you start believing that what you are experiencing is real, how do you get out of that loop?


Medication.




> I'm trying to be objective in my view of each character instead of solely relying on the perspective of Chief.


It's impossible to be objective. All of the information is being relayed by the Chief. We can on speculate.




> How does her military training influence her management of the patients? They just do things differently and it isnt like Sunday school. The loud music makes me suspicious of her. Bombarding someone with loud music is a tactic used to break people down (Like they used in Waco, TX). Why is she so unyielding, is their care her main interest or is it complete authority?


The nurse isn't the only one who has done time with the green machine: Mcmurphy, Bromden, etc.





> ... we are reminded that the Chief should not be relied on: The constant references to fog and warped time concept, eg. Also he seems to know things he should not; eg, the story about one of the carer's childhood and reason for his so-called hate.


Yes, yes and yes! I wouldn't be suprised if the Chief is up on Disturbed playing imaginary football games with the lifeguard as he narrates the story.




> On a seperate note, the Night Nurse's reaction to McMurphy is one of the funniest things I have read:


Funniest part of the book. Funniest part of the book.




> What did McMurphy gain after he attacked Washington the aide (in trying to shield George from the "cautionary cleansing")?


The mens trust.




> What did McMurphy gain when he attacked Big Nurse in outrage for Bibbit's death?


Justice.

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