# Teaching > General Teaching >  Personal Responsibility

## LitNetIsGreat

At what age, and under what circumstances, do you think that personal responsibility should lie with the student and not with the teacher for failure? Should we let students steer their own course towards failure or should we endlessly try to intervene? Should students who disrupt other students learning continually, be expelled or endlessly forgiven and persevered with?

I would be interested to hear any thoughts you have on this issue, thanks.

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## Lokasenna

I'm not sure there should be a definitive age - I think that a lot of it depends entirely upon the individual circumstances.

For one of my A-Level subjects, we were given an absolutely awful teacher. She was a very nice person, but woefully incompetent (most of us knew more than she did!). She was so bad that she only held the job for a year, then was asked to leave, so it was pretty serious.

The class basically divided into two groups: those that sorted themselves out (which included me) and those that didn't. Predictably, those of us who spent the time teaching ourselves the subject did well, and those that took her lessons as an essential free period did poorly.

Did our decision to study harder above the level of our lessons award us our triumph? Or is she to blame for those who didn't put the extra effort in? It's a grey area, particularly the older you get, as you should be doing extra study anyway..?

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## LitNetIsGreat

Yes it is a grey area and I would probably agree that in should be down to individual circumstance and not a pre-set age. Also I am not trying to excuse woeful teaching but there has to be some sort of cut of point where the emphasis should be placed upon the student and not the teacher. I generally feel that at post 16 you are on your own and you get out what you put in. 

Lower down the age range it gets even harder. Do you *force* students to learn? Do you allow for persistent disruptive behaviour to affect the learning of others despite hundreds of chances? Or do you get rid and let them suffer from their own faults? Where does/should personal responsibility come into play here?

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## Scheherazade

I don't think failure can ever be only student's. The teacher is expected to teach and make sure that some kind of learning is taking place. It may not be at the same level for each student but still depending on their level of knowledge and ability, each student should get something out of their classes.

Disruptive behaviour, even though an obstacle, is part of daily class atmosphere; expelling is really an extreme measure, which cannot be applied regularly. All teachers have different ways of dealing with such behaviour and in most cases they work: rewards, responsibilities, loss of entitlements, open bribes and sometimes not giving any attention.

If a teacher does not deal with such behaviour, it is their failure as much as student's.

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## motherhubbard

Let's not forget the parent's role in education. How does that get left out? I would say that parents should bear the mother load of responsibility.

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## Scheherazade

Most of my students are 20+... So I doubt if they would listen to "mom" much!  :Biggrin:

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## motherhubbard

probably not after 20, but by then mom should taught the child to be responsible for himself!

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## LitNetIsGreat

> Let's not forget the parent's role in education. How does that get left out? I would say that parents should bear the mother load of responsibility.


Absolutely, I couldn't agree more, I would say that parental responsibility makes up at least 90% of it all, but (and probably the reason I personally left it out) the teacher can do little about that, they certainly can't turn the clock back and re-house the student into a more supportive home.




> I don't think failure can ever be only student's. The teacher is expected to teach and make sure that some kind of learning is taking place. It may not be at the same level for each student but still depending on their level of knowledge and ability, each student should get something out of their classes.
> 
> Disruptive behaviour, even though an obstacle, is part of daily class atmosphere; expelling is really an extreme measure, which cannot be applied regularly. All teachers have different ways of dealing with such behaviour and in most cases they work: rewards, responsibilities, loss of entitlements, open bribes and sometimes not giving any attention.
> 
> If a teacher does not deal with such behaviour, it is their failure as much as student's.


This is the voice of reason and I fundamentally agree with what you are saying, but what if 5, 10, 20 teachers have the same problem with the same student? When students throw chairs across rooms and are given a hundred chances, what then? Where does the responsibility lie, surely there is only so much a teacher or support worker can do?

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## Delta40

I have a tutor who takes on responsibility. she considers it her job to ensure that students make the grade for each component of the unit. this means she 'makes' students participate so they will score the 15%. The problem with this is that students like me who do participate are being actively discouraged as a result. It stinks. She may as well write their essays for them as well. It isn't her job to suckle. Her role is to inform and facilitate.

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## Emmy Castrol

I think we should 'endlessly try to intervene'. Leave no rock unturned and then try not to take it personally if the student never manages to overcome. They were probably meant for something else. 

Just my two cents.

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## Delta40

Mind you, I'm a mature age stude. I have a different approach at this stage. Fee for service. I'm there to get taught and I hold the teacher to certain level and I feel free to voice my concerns if they are not meeting my requirements.

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## Scheherazade

> This is the voice of reason and I fundamentally agree with what you are saying, but what if 5, 10, 20 teachers have the same problem with the same student? When students throw chairs across rooms and are given a hundred chances, what then? Where does the responsibility lie, surely there is only so much a teacher or support worker can do?


As I said in my earlier post too, expulsion is still an option (though extreme). If everything else fails, some students will get expelled but even then, I personally believe that there must be something wrong at the background for a student not to respond and seek to improve their behaviour.

I cannot imagine a student not trying just for sake of it.


> I think we should 'endlessly try to intervene'. Leave no rock unturned and then try not to take it personally if the student never manages to overcome. They were probably meant for something else. 
> 
> Just my two cents.


I agree with Emmy. Once everything is tried, there is always the possibility that the student is not in the right class at the right level.

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## LitNetIsGreat

> As I said in my earlier post too, expulsion is still an option (though extreme). If everything else fails, some students will get expelled but even then, I personally believe that there must be something wrong at the background for a student not to respond and seek to improve their behaviour.
> 
> I cannot imagine a student not trying just for sake of it.I agree with Emmy. Once everything is tried, there is always the possibility that the student is not in the right class at the right level.


I'm afraid I am beginning to take a much harder stance. If a student is not willing to follow basic expectations over and over again then they should be shown the door, especially when they reach 16. They have to take personal responsibility over their own learning and life at some point, especially when their actions interfere with the learning of others. Teaching and learning is a contract that both parties need to deliver on, and if they don't live up to this over and over again, then few options remain left on the table, bye, bye.

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## Scheherazade

> I'm afraid I am beginning to take a much harder stance. If a student is not willing to follow basic expectations over and over again then they should be shown the door, especially when they reach 16. They have to take personal responsibility over their own learning and life at some point, especially when their actions interfere with the learning of others. Teaching and learning is a contract that both parties need to deliver on, and if they don't live up to this over and over again, then few options remain left on the table, bye, bye.


I don't think we disagree here. The only thing is that I see expulsion as a last resort.

Just occured to me that disciplining in teaching and moderating on the Forum are not too different!  :Wink:

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## Lokasenna

Part of it must also be seen in the context of the classroom as a whole. If one student is being very troublesome, then it must follow that the teacher will waste a lot of time dealing with them to the detriment of the other students - is it fair on those others that the troublemaker is preventing them from learning properly? I'm afraid I would be inclined to take a hardline stance on it - after, say, 3 official warnings (involving the parents being brought into school) have been ignored, then get rid of them.

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## Scheherazade

Lokasenna> I really wish it was as simple as "three strikes and you are out". That would make things really easy for many, most importantly for teachers. However, an expelled student is a lost student, citizen and individual in my eyes.

Dealing with such students actually does not necessarily take that much time. Most of these students act in this way to get attention and no experienced teacher will satisfy them by giving them their full attention and neglecting others in the class.

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## LitNetIsGreat

> Dealing with such students actually does not necessarily take that much time. Most of these students act in this way to get attention and no experienced teacher will satisfy them by giving them their full attention and neglecting others in the class.


No I don't agree, the time spent on disruptive students can be a huge black hole of waste. I suppose it all depends upon the environment you are working in, the structure of the school and the students. Unfortunately the environment I am working in is not a good one, hence the somewhat pessimistic outlook.

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## Lokasenna

> Lokasenna> I really wish it was as simple as "three strikes and you are out". That would make things really easy for many, most importantly for teachers. However, an expelled student is a lost student, citizen and individual in my eyes.
> 
> Dealing with such students actually does not necessarily take that much time. Most of these students act in this way to get attention and no experienced teacher will satisfy them by giving them their full attention and neglecting others in the class.


Again, I suppose it should come down to individual circumstance. But I know people, my own mother for one, who feel they've been cheated of important bits of their education by disruptive pupils who just won't let the lessons proceed. It can be really disheartening for them.

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## kasie

This is a purely speculative thought, one I've never had to put into practice: is there any possibility of peer pressure being the solution? I agree with the posters who suggest that post-16, students should have to exercise some measure of responsibility for their own behaviour and learning strategies - if there is a student who persistently disrupts classes, can he/she be dealt with by the rest of the class who do want to learn? I realise I am suggesting what might be construed as mass bullying, social ostracism, but isn't the disruptive pupil engaging in some kind of controlling behaviour which only works if those being controlled consent to that control taking place? Can they join in with 'enforcing' the kind of behaviour that will be conducive to the achieving of their goal (ie to learn) rather than the goal of the disruptive pupil (ie to gain attention)?

The ex-teacher in me agrees with the attitude of 'never give up': the ex-teacher who now has the luxury of standing back and taking the objective view is persuaded that perhaps, for the greater good, there are some pupils who should be removed from the classroom. Pre-16, that is an expensive option, of course, since the excluded pupil must by law (in UK) have alternative arrangements put in place and possibly needs help that is outside the educational remit, social or psychological help which is a grey area for funding.

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## Sapphire

> This is a purely speculative thought, one I've never had to put into practice: is there any possibility of peer pressure being the solution?


Is this not what happens when students have to work out an assignment in projects? 
In my experience, this can go either way. Other students might encourage the unwilling pupil to get stuff done and learn something, because he/she feels obliged not to diminish the groups work. Or he/she will just continue to do nothing or fool around and the others will get so fed up with him/her that they will kick him/her out. 

I do not really see how you could put this into practise in the classroom. Should students be the ones to keep order? Would the pupil listen to other pupils rather than a teacher? 
Maybe you mean that if it was not "cool" to be disrupting classes, it would happen less? 

It is an interesting idea, I just do not see how you could do it?!

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## The Comedian

I think a lot of this depends on the situation: is this a class of adults? Adolescences? Or little kids?

And I think that you have to divide "responsibility" into two categories: (1) responsibility for one's own learning and (2) responsibility for the classroom environment. 

Regarding issue 1: If it's adolescences and adults we're talkin' about here. Then, then under a normal functioning classroom environments, one in which the teacher is competent and the material is reasonable, then if the student's refuse to learn, I say, let them fail. The world is large and full of opportunities, if they want to come back to school or a different school with they are better equipped emotionally, then they should be welcome to do so. That is the responsibility for individual learning is the individual's (barring extreme circumstances).

Regarding issue 2 (the environment): It's the teacher's job to see that an individual or group's distraction or lack of discipline do not affect the other students. If more gentle measures have been tried without success, then if possible, the teacher should remove the problem students from the classroom. And he/she should have full administrative support for doing this action. That is the responsibility for the learning environment is the teacher's responsibility alone.

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## kasie

> .......It is an interesting idea, I just do not see how you could do it?!



As I said, it was a speculation - I hadn't actually thought about how it would be put into practice!

Maybe I was thinking along the lines of a change of culture in a school - and it would have to be a change through the school - whereby pupils and teachers respected each other and discussion about shared goals was encouraged, so that an individual who did not enter into the spirit of the class was 'encouraged' to do so by the others. Sometimes even a muttered 'Oh, put a sock in it, Fred' has the desired effect - laughter instead of anger can defuse a situation and most attention seekers dislike being the object of derision or mirth. Or even one brave individual standing up to the disruptive bully, because seeking to control a class of equals by disrupting their activities is a form of bullying, might be enough to bring a measure of perspective to a situation and give other members of the class the courage to stand beside the first brave soul and reinforce the message that they are bored with the constant interruptions and they have had enough. When it is more than one person causing the trouble then I don't know that it would work. as I said - it was an idle speculation.

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## Virgil

> At what age, and under what circumstances, do you think that personal responsibility should lie with the student and not with the teacher for failure?


I guess there is a shared responsibility all the way from grade school to the end. It's a question of what percentage is the split. In kindergarden I would say it's 99% Teacher, 1% student; in mid level school I would say it's 75% Teacher 25% student; in high school I would say it's 50-50. In undergrad college 20% Teacher, 80% student; grad school 10% Teacher, 90 % student; PhD program 1% Teacher 99% student. How's that?  :Biggrin: 





> Should we let students steer their own course towards failure or should we endlessly try to intervene?


I guess it depends what you mean by success and failure. If you mean passing or failing the class, I think the teacher has some responsibility, but ultimately the student has to pull himself through.




> Should students who disrupt other students’ learning continually, be expelled or endlessly forgiven and persevered with?


It depends how old/what grade but if they disrupt the other students from learning then their a$$ needs to be thrown out. Or at least set aside in some special class for jerks.

Note: I did not read anyone's comments until I had posted. I see what Scher is saying, that a good teacher should have the skill to dealing with most energetic and active kids, and I think she's right that most of those are seeking attention. (By the way, I was such a kid and probably still seek attention.  :Biggrin: ) My throw their rear end out was referring to students who are being active and energetic kids but kids who are down right malicious and causing trouble. I think there are some classifications that can be made between the kids Scher is talking about and those Neely is talking about.

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## LitNetIsGreat

> I guess there is a shared responsibility all the way from grade school to the end. It's a question of what percentage is the split. In kindergarden I would say it's 99% Teacher, 1% student; in mid level school I would say it's 75% Teacher 25% student; in high school I would say it's 50-50. In undergrad college 20% Teacher, 80% student; grad school 10% Teacher, 90 % student; PhD program 1% Teacher 99% student. How's that?


Yes I think that is a good compromise, I could go with that.





> I guess it depends what you mean by success and failure. If you mean passing or failing the class, I think the teacher has some responsibility, but ultimately the student has to pull himself through.


I am happy to tie the pass/fail rate alongside the percentages you quoted above. It is a two way contract.





> It depends how old/what grade but if they disrupt the other students from learning then their a$$ needs to be thrown out. Or at least set aside in some special class for jerks.


Yes.




> Note: I did not read anyone's comments until I had posted. I see what Scher is saying, that a good teacher should have the skill to dealing with most energetic and active kids, and I think she's right that most of those are seeking attention. (By the way, I was such a kid and probably still seek attention. ) My throw their rear end out was referring to students who are being active and energetic kids but kids who are down right malicious and causing trouble. I think there are some classifications that can be made between the kids Scher is talking about and those Neely is talking about.


I was trying to be as general as possible, but yes I was personally thinking of extreme chair throwing and general teacher assaulting behaviour, as opposed to pencil tapping.  :Smile:  What should also be a consideration is the amount of time and money spent upon such students when it could be better spent elsewhere. It is true that in most cases these students are the future criminal classes, but in my experience endless intervention does not work, certainly when these types reach 14/15 it is already too late.

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## Virgil

Edit: Oops, I see I forgot to write the word "not" above in the last paragragh in my post above. I meant to say, "My throw their rear end out was *not*  referring to students who are being active and energetic kids..." I believe Neely quoted me before I made this correction.




> I was trying to be as general as possible, but yes I was personally thinking of extreme chair throwing and general teacher assaulting behaviour, as opposed to pencil tapping.


Oh my gosh I wasn't thinking that violent but certainly. 




> What should also be a consideration is the amount of time and money spent upon such students when it could be better spent elsewhere. It is true that in most cases these students are the future criminal classes, but in my experience endless intervention does not work, certainly when these types reach 14/15 it is already too late.


Yes, and really a teacher is not trained to deal with this type of kid. There needs to be a special school or section just for them. And even that may not work. I grew up with punks like that and I know what you mean.

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## motherhubbard

This conversation makes me think of a guy I know. In Jr. High he was expelled for bringing a gun to school. He was Trouble (notice the capitol T). He was from an abusive home environment, had/has mental health issues and developed drug problems. He’s been in and out of prison. Now, although I’ve always been kind of afraid of him, I’ve always sympathized with his situation. He was a kid, 12-15, dealing with adult problems. Most adults wouldn’t have done any better. He was too young to give up on, but that’s what happened. Now he has a son that’s in high school in the same small town. I hate to be this way, but there were very few teachers who gave this kid a chance. I’ve worked with these people so I can attest to their attitudes. 

I don’t agree with some of the language that us used and allowed, the television programming that is watched, or other things like that. But, he’s a pretty good dad. I don’t just say someone is a good parent. He’s wants better for his son who is now 15. He’s really done some great things for this boy. The dad still has mental problems and so it’s not a perfect situation, but he has made huge life changes in an attempt to be a good father. 

The son got into some trouble at school for fighting. In the lower socioeconomic class fighting is part of survival and that is culturally universal. It’s still wrong, but we should consider these things in perspective. Education does happen in a bubble. School occurs within a social context. It was decided that he should try the alternative school. He went in on the first day for placement testing. At the follow up conference they told the dad that the boy’s IQ was in the 130s, I’m not sure of the exact number anymore. He was flunking out of public school. After attending the alternative school for a year he had completed all of the course work at his grade level and the next grade level and been accepted to participate in a special summer program with NASA where they build some kind of rocket or something- I don’t know what it was but he got his picture on the front page of the newspaper. 

Let me tell you, this was a throwaway kid that had been given up on. I hate to sell these kids short. If we are trying to fit square pegs into round holes is it right to blame the square peg for not fitting? I don’t think so. I think that educators need to rise to the occasion. Every child has a potential and it’s the teacher’s job to help them reach it. 

Now, having said this I want to add that the role of the parent cannot be understated. It is the single greatest factor in a child’s school success. Of course there are several other factors to consider. I think the real question should be how do we get parents to give a crap, how do we make parents more accountable for raising their children? That is where the answer is.

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## Lokasenna

I just remembered this. Its the 1 week diary of a maths teacher at a 'bog-standard' british comprehensive school, and was published anonymously in _Private Eye_. It really is quite illuminating, albeit in a depressing way:

http://web.archive.org/web/200407180...ection.teacher

I think this offers a good perspective on our debate!

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## erin montemurro

at no age - the failure and success of any student is a result of shared responsibility - with regard to expelling students for disrupting others that makes little sense - one must attempt to understand why the student is being disruptive and in doing so be better armed to employ a proactive strategy to ensure that such behavior is curbed.  :Smile:

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## motherhubbard

> at no age - the failure and success of any student is a result of shared responsibility - with regard to expelling students for disrupting others that makes little sense - one must attempt to understand why the student is being disruptive and in doing so be better armed to employ a proactive strategy to ensure that such behavior is curbed.


Erin, Safety in the classroom is an issue. The teacher cannot be expected to physically overpower or restrain a student. Sometimes kids are OUT OF CONTROL and no discipline technique or threat of punishment is going to change that. Once it reaches a certain point it has gone beyond what a teacher can deal with. That stems from the home environment, teachers don't raise children to be disruptive or delinquents. That is the failing of the parents. All of society is paying for the parents failures. 

Raising kids is a job, a very hard job, and thats not the fault of the child. People are having kids without thinking of the total commitment that is involved or the difficult if the task. Then when it gets tough they quit and expect the school to fix the kids.

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## LitNetIsGreat

> at no age - the failure and success of any student is a result of shared responsibility - with regard to expelling students for disrupting others that makes little sense - one must attempt to understand why the student is being disruptive and in doing so be better armed to employ a proactive strategy to ensure that such behavior is curbed.


I suggest you read the excellent link posted by Lokasenna if you haven't already, I'll re-post it here:
http://web.archive.org/web/200407180...ection.teacher

Thanks for posting that by the way, it was a great read, very amusing in the sense that I can recognise so much in that (it's going round to several staff tomorrow by email). I can testify that this is NO exaggeration and is fairly typical of a fairly typical school in the UK. So please read this link erin montemurro before coming out with comments like the one quoted above, because with all due respect, it does feel woefully naive.

I would totally agree with the importance of parents and the social upbringing of a child to his or her future as motherhubbard suggested, but that is not really the issue here at all. The teacher has no control over these issues. I was interested in discussing this from a teacher's perspective and centring this around the issues of personal responsibility. Clearly this is a contract between both parties, and Vigil's varying percentage struck me as a particularly useful way to look at the situation, and consequently I think the comments from motherhubbard of "I think that educators need to *rise to the occasion*. Every child has a potential and its the teachers job to help them reach it" is never as simple as that in the harsh reality of modern teaching in a 'normal' school.

*I would just like to reiterate the need to read the link posted so that we are all coming from the same place* Thanks for all the contributions.

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## Virgil

> Let me tell you, this was a throwaway kid that had been given up on. I hate to sell these kids short. If we are trying to fit square pegs into round holes is it right to blame the square peg for not fitting? I dont think so. I think that educators need to rise to the occasion. Every child has a potential and its the teachers job to help them reach it. 
> 
> Now, having said this I want to add that the role of the parent cannot be understated. It is the single greatest factor in a childs school success. Of course there are several other factors to consider. I think the real question should be how do we get parents to give a crap, how do we make parents more accountable for raising their children? That is where the answer is.


Well, I don't mean to imply we just throw them away. The do need to be removed from the general population and put in a special school for problem kids.

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## an7hrax

the age of one and a half seconds

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## Delta40

there doesn't seem to be clear boundaries anymore on responsibility itself. Everyone is afflicted by this problem - parents and teachers alike. Its a pass the parcel syndrome and children ultimately pay the price; only to grow up and pass their lack of skill onto the generation they bring into the world who grow up to become amongst other things, teachers. Let us strip titles and labels away - the us and them and recall that all of us have a stake in this. Each of us is affected and none of us is exempt from personal responsibility.

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## motherhubbard

> I would totally agree with the importance of parents and the social upbringing of a child to his or her future as motherhubbard suggested, but that is not really the issue here at all. The teacher has no control over these issues. I was interested in discussing this from a teacher's perspective and centring this around the issues of personal responsibility. Clearly this is a contract between both parties, and Vigil's varying percentage struck me as a particularly useful way to look at the situation, and consequently I think the comments from motherhubbard of "I think that educators need to *rise to the occasion*. Every child has a potential and it’s the teacher’s job to help them reach it" is never as simple as that in the harsh reality of modern teaching in a 'normal' school.


I do agree with you and I see your point. We can only treat the symptoms even though we know the cure. What is a teacher to do? Sometimes a teacher can intervene and make a difference, other times nothing they could do would be enough. I like Virgil’s percentages as well. When a teacher has documented her efforts to prove that she has met her obligations in trying a wide variety of methods, worked in assorted areas of intelligence, remediate, brought in other professionals, intervened, and at least attempted to involve the family then I don’ t think there is anything else she can do. From there it falls on the children. When it comes to behavioral issues class safety comes first. 




> Well, I don't mean to imply we just throw them away. The do need to be removed from the general population and put in a special school for problem kids.


Even in a self contained classroom we still have to ask the same questions. It’s hard to get kids into a self contained room or alternative school. There are guidelines about least restrictive environment. Often things have to go too far before a troubled child can be moved. Also, contained programs are so expensive. I think most school districts have some kind of alternative school but funding is problematic. Maybe it’s not so bad in states with more money. I live in Arkansas after all.

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## Virgil

Good points Mom-H. But whereever they have to put them, it's not fair to the other kids for the bad ones to ruin it for them.

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## motherhubbard

I agree but nothing about any of this is fair.

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## jon1jt

The American public school has about 30 percent of kids that don't deserve to be there. Let me say the bulk of these kids entail special ed, but there are non-special ed kids who are just as wise and shrewd and defiant. 

I have an idea for an "early intervention" program. My version. 

After a number of attempts at improving the classroom behavior, attitude, and work ethic of students who repeatedly fail to do their part, the system would automatically enroll them in a school-to-work program. The program would do exactly as it proposes: phase select kids out of school and into full-time employment, no exceptions. And if that fails, then juvenile detention. First, it would stop wasting taxdollars for an education they're not getting and don't appreciate. Second, it will eliminate disobedient kids from getting in the way of other children who want to learn and respect their teachers. Three, it would put an end to that sense of entitlement early in life.

The suggestion that kids should be 'rewarded' by sending them to an alternative school fixes only part of a much bigger problem. My school-to-work program sends a strong message that the school system will no longer tolerate children and young adults who think they're going to get away with beating the system. At present, the kids who devote every second of every school hour blaming everybody else for their problems use that as an excuse to do nothing, and too often the system coddles, and too often these are the same kids who grow up and pursue disability benefits, welfare, medicaid, etc, with the expectation that the system will submit for them as it did so many times before. 

That every American is entitled to an education is another one of those dead ideas.

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## motherhubbard

Entitlement really chaps by rear end! 

I'm not sure I would call A school a reward. I know you are in the system and know its problems. I think your solution is as good as any other I've heard. You should hear what my husband has to say! It makes your plan sound like liberal hogwash. 

What would you do with five year olds who display these qualities? I'm talking the Omen child (I know these twins and I think they need to be removed from their home). They bite hunks out of other children, throw their little chairs at the teacher, use curse words with absolute skill. They are a threat to the teacher and the children in the classroom and the school has a constant worry over liability. They don't need to be in the classroom, but they are a little young for a school to work program. I keep thinking that if it could be nipped when kids are five we wouldn't have these problems when they are fifteen.

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## jon1jt

Liberal hogwash is why the system is the way it is. Liberals will tell you that my proposal is actually rabid right-wing republican hogwash. 

As far as the Omen child, I've met many working in the schools. I have a solution for the so-called problem with the kids who are too young to go from school to work. 

Whether the kid is five or twenty-five, the potential for public harm increases over time. So then, I would devise a slightly different version of today's psychiatric hospital which emphasizes "therapeutic" this and therapeutic that. (A quick example of this involves a friend of mine who is in drug rehab. I called him at the hospital the other day and an attendant answered the phone informing me that he was in "therapeutic activity." When I later asked my friend what he was doing in therapeutic activity, he said he was just taking a walk outside for 20 minutes.  :FRlol: ) 

Psychiatric hospitals and therapeutic halfway house-type schools have become a safehaven for deviants, and this needs to change if we ever stand a chance to change the system on a large scale. Policy must become tougher. Start by eliminating the therapeutic halfway house (mostly court-mandated) for children and young adults. Psychiatric hospitals will be their only avenue. At a young age kids must be taught that such hospitals are frightening places to be because they really truly are. Consider today that many kids perceive their school's suspension or expulsion policy not as a form of punishment but as time off from school. I've witnessed kids actually celebrating after being suspended. Their parents told me they do the same at home. And let's stop blaming the parents. Most parents try real damn hard to motivate their disobedient kid. It's very hard, in some instances, impossible to turn a kid around. Also, there are laws to comply with. Parents can't even spank their kid on the hand for fear the school psychologist will call in the state dogs. Look, some kids are tyrants, period. And the small percentage of parents who take little or no part in their child's schooling/life are normally lying, cheating, good for nothings themselves who had the misfortune of coming up through the system the same way. And sadly there ought to be stiff penalties and mandatory programs for this worst kind parent. Because to be a good parent, to care about others as much or more than you do yourself, you first have to be a good human being. 

The system must send a strong message prior to the display of unacceptable behavior. If a kid wants to throw a chair at a teacher...okay, go ahead, but let them be aware that the teacher and school system is empowered to throw one back at them. And when that fails, the student will be given a one-way ticket to the psychiatric hospital that acts as education facility, prison, and parenting mechanism, and will continue for the life of the student's education, minimum. Depending on the circumstances, there might be a hospital-to-home provision, but students will not be permitted to return to public/private school. Remember: they lost that privilege.

Self-contained classes, school psychologists, child study teams, early child intervention programs, special ed teachers, one-on-one, IEPs, counselors, behavior/skill modification, etc etc etc., Get rid of them all, they're a complete waste of time. 

Let's stop kidding ourselves that these special ed/At-risk/juvenile delinquent kids are fit to learn beside normal kids. I don't know what they are, but I know those kids are not normal. And normal kids should not be penalized for it. School, learning, growing up, is hard enough. 


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## Virgil

> Liberal hogwash is why the system is the way it is. Liberals will tell you that my proposal is actually rabid right-wing republican hogwash.


Hear hear!! But I would say that right-wing republican hogwash is commonly known as common sense.  :Wink:  




> Let's stop kidding ourselves that these special ed/At-risk/juvenile delinquent kids are fit to learn beside normal kids. I don't know what they are, but I know those kids are not normal. And normal kids should not be penalized for it. School, learning, growing up, is hard enough.


I think by the context of your post you meant to say "these special ed/At-risk/juvenile delinquent kids are *not*  fit to learn beside normal kids." I agree that they need to be separated from the rest of the kids. I would not give up on them; there has to be a process that will reach them, but whatever that is it's not what works with the other kids. But bottom line to me, it's not fair to the other kids.




> Entitlement really chaps by rear end! 
> 
> I'm not sure I would call A school a reward. I know you are in the system and know its problems. I think your solution is as good as any other I've heard. You should hear what my husband has to say! It makes your plan sound like liberal hogwash. 
> 
> What would you do with five year olds who display these qualities? I'm talking the Omen child (I know these twins and I think they need to be removed from their home). They bite hunks out of other children, throw their little chairs at the teacher, use curse words with absolute skill. They are a threat to the teacher and the children in the classroom and the school has a constant worry over liability. They don't need to be in the classroom, but they are a little young for a school to work program. I keep thinking that if it could be nipped when kids are five we wouldn't have these problems when they are fifteen.


Would love to meet your husband someday. I bet we see the world very similarly.  :Biggrin:

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## Zee.

It really bothers me when students are blamed for things which clearly lie with the teacher.

My average in english two years ago was a C+, last year i had the most amazing, encouraging teacher and i got an A on my exam.
This year I have a teacher who I, nor anyone else, can not engage with. She is TERRIBLE at teaching. And such teachers are everywhere. When my grades rest with an incompetent teacher, who stands in front of my opportunity to go to my desired Uni, yeah - that's a worry.

I also think it's the age difference. The "because i'm older, respect me, respect me" whatnots, which is fine i guess, but... if i'm getting terrible marks for work that I KNOW deserves better, or if i'm getting taught by a teacher who frequently asks me how to spell a word, then nah, no way in hell am i happy.

Some teachers shouldn't be teachers, period.

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## Chava

One of my old teachers once said to me; A good student can learn even from a bad teacher, and even a good teacher can't teach a bad student. 

I'm not sure I agree with her about all of it. I've had my share of poor teachers, and excellent teachers, but my grades have always been stable. Of course great teachers are so much more inspiring, and certainly much more interesting, but at some point we become so adult that we have to take responsiblity for our own learning.

In the younger grades, I think the most important thing a teacher can do is induce respect but not fear. Children should want to go to school, not fear the teachers, i don't think fear is conducive to a learning atmosphere. I went to a school without any punishments, and I've never known such creative well mannered individuals.

I think this mentality is akin to one important thing I realised as a child. The most important task of a parent is to let their children know that they are loved.

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## LitNetIsGreat

I don’t think anybody here is excusing bad teaching or a teacher with a lack of commitment. It is clearly a two way contract. However you have to give the teacher credit for being human, not all teachers can be “the most amazing, encouraging teacher” this is a very high standard of expectation and it is unrealistic.

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## Zee.

^ Yes but when you're fulfilling an important role, for a particular year level such as mine, where your opportunity to go to your desired uni rests in their hands - if they aren't the best then they should step down, in my opinion

I'm not talking about having a robot teach a class. But someone who is engaging and knows what they are talking about.

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## LitNetIsGreat

But your opportunity to go to your desired uni rests in _your_ hands. I am not excusing bad teaching and if this teacher is as bad as you say then I would probably agree with you, but at post 16 the emphasis should be placed more on the student than with the teacher. Consider that some of the worlds greatest writers and thinkers have been self-taught.

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## Zee.

Yes of course it gets to the point where self teaching is necessary but the initial receiving of information must be done correctly by a teacher that KNOWS what they're talking about. 
But I was making reference to marking. I had a piece cross marked once and it went from a C+ to an A. Now such a difference like that, I find worrying. Because in that case, whether i'm self taught or not is completely irrelevant because i'm not the one marking my work.

Also, it was my first time doing Literature last year and the way essays are written are so incredibly different to English essays. Luckily I had a teacher that could explain it well, however, there have been cases where friends of mine have been introduced to this new method of essay writing by an incompetent teacher, and this has impacted them significantly.

At times you have to realize that to get the best marks for each subject, you must "write" with the relevant teacher's views in mind, whether you agree with them or not. And in my opinion, there's something really not good nor right about that. But that's the education system for you. Fit in or get spat out..

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## Scheherazade

What is the role of a teacher in such an atmosphere, Neely, where the student does their own learning?

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## Zee.

I don't get the self taught philosophy..
What's the point in being a teacher if you're going to suggest to your students they teach themselves? i find that extremely slack.

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## LitNetIsGreat

Im not suggesting that any teacher sits back feet on table while the class teach themselves. Personally I never had the opportunity to study English/English Literature at A-Level (generally studied at 16-18). What I had to do was teach myself to this standard in my spare time and then enter University studying part-time later. What I am saying is that many people can learn without a teacher emitting learning and the student being the passive receiver. Being taught by someone else is not the only way to learn. There are many ways to learn and ultimately the responsibility for learning post 16 lies more with the student than the teacher.

As I have said previously teaching is a two-way contract and both parties need to keep to their side of the bargain, whether this is the student or the teacher. With that being said you cannot expect the most awe inspiring teachers as standard, teachers like this are few and far between and you maybe only come across one or two of these in a lifetime. 

In regards with essay writing in my experience, yes, you have to tailor you writing to suit the teacher, this is something which will continue well into University and beyond. Personally I have been told contrasting things by every single University tutor I have ever had regarding essays and have been given about five different ways to write a bibliography. So much information that even after nearly five years of University study Im still not sure of the correct way to write one, but this is just part of life and not something to stress about.

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## Chava

Just a thought, my university is an alternative one, and is largely based on self study; we write conduct projects and write one conclusive report per semester, the lectures are largely supplementary to this, rather than the ordinary reports and assignments to supplement the lectures. I love this form of study, but it isn't easy, and many people drop out to take a normal degree, where there is less focus on the ability to study independantly.

I can't think of a teacher I've ever had who was impossible, I've had teachers who say "A-lign-ated" instead of Alienated, I've had a french teacher whos first words to the class were "I'm not a language teacher, but a maths teacher", but you know, a teacher can sense the commitment and enthusiasm from the students, and we've always made it work. 15 years in educational institutions, and I can't say I've ever had a truly bad teacher, in spite of spelling errors, pronounciation disasters, or mismathed qualifications to subjects. You can always learn something, let the teacher know what they can do to improve in a constructive manner, it's worked wonders for me.

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## Virgil

> Just a thought, my university is an alternative one, and is largely based on self study; we write conduct projects and write one conclusive report per semester, the lectures are largely supplementary to this, rather than the ordinary reports and assignments to supplement the lectures. I love this form of study, but it isn't easy, and many people drop out to take a normal degree, where there is less focus on the ability to study independantly.


I've had a class or two like that. It requires a committed student. I agree it's not for everyone and I'm not sure I could have handled my whole college like that.

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## Shannanigan

I teach 12th grade. If my entire class failed, I would consider it a failure on my part, not theirs.

I expect them to study on their own for their tests, do their assignments and projects on their own, and come to me on their own if they are having trouble. When it comes to the teaching of information, however, I do not simply assign unit and chapter titles to be researched and self-taught, especially in a literature class. Rather, we read literature or chapters together, I ask discussion questions (often called "guided discovery" questions) which lead students to discover deeper meaning and understanding themselves, and if they just can't get it, then I jump in, explain, and have them explain back to me in their own words.

They work on their own, basically, but I can't expect students that aren't gifted to take the initiative to learn on their own. It would never work out. Instead, I try to at least help these kids to realize that they ARE capable of understanding their readings and making inferences, and that they ARE indeed intelligent, no matter what they've been told or brought to believe over their past 12 years in the school system...

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## isidro

At what point? Conceivably before they hit public school. Parents need to instill a love and thirst for learning long before it becomes the "responsibility" of the teacher.

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