# Reading > Forum Book Club >  May '10 Reading: The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay

## Scheherazade

In May, we will be reading the Pulitzer prize winner _The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay_ by Michael Chabon.

Please post your comments and questions in this thread.

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## The Comedian

I will be participating in this discussion. My book hasn't arrived yet, but should in the next couple days. Can't wait!

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## applepie

> I will be participating in this discussion. My book hasn't arrived yet, but should in the next couple days. Can't wait!


I'm going to get my copy on order. Just remember, I'm taking your word that this is a good read  :Wink:

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## Dark Muse

Just started reading today!

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## kasie

I read this a few months ago and enjoyed it very much indeed. I'm not sure I will have time to read it again, though it would bear a re-reading, but if I may, I will drop into this thread from time to time to see what other readers make of it. I'm sure you will enjoy it but be warned - it is quite a long book so may take a while to complete.

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## Dark Muse

I just finished the first part of this book, and though there are moments in which I find it a bit difficult to follow on the whole this book is just the sort of thing that I like, and it does have my kind of humor to it. 

The opening to this book had many elements which I quite enjoy. I love the mention of magic or illusion within books, and always finding it interesting, so I love Josef's fascination with Houdini and his training with Kornblum. 

I like books which while are based in reality play with suggestions of the sureal or supernatural and bend the readers perception of reality, even if in only subtle suggestive ways. I loved the quest for the mystical golem. 

Also I really like books that deal with ideas reality to escapism and liked the way in which the book revolved around this idea in various different ways, from the lock picking, and the flight to America.

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## The Comedian

I received my copy yesterday and got about 30 pages into it. So far I'm really enjoying the text, but responsibilities at home and work have kept me from running though it. I'll have more intelligent things to post a little later.

EDIT: I did note that the early narrative of Josef's flight from Prague parallels the story of Superman/Moses: favored son of a dying land sent to find a rebirth in American/new land.

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## sadparadise

Picking up my copy tonight. It will be a late one!

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## Dark Muse

> EDIT: I did note that the early narrative of Josef's flight from Prague parallels the story of Superman/Moses: favored son of a dying land sent to find a rebirth in American/new land.


That is interesting. I have to admit that watching the movies they make is about as much as I know about comic books, and Superman was always really one of my least favorite comic heroes so I wouldn't even see the movie when it came out.

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## kasie

****POSSIBLE SPOILER****

DM - if you are like me, you will have learned a great deal more about comic books by the time you have finished K&C: I developed quite a respect for them as I read.

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## Dark Muse

> ****POSSIBLE SPOILER****
> 
> DM - if you are like me, you will have learned a great deal more about comic books by the time you have finished K&C: I developed quite a respect for them as I read.


I am starting to get that impression, and I am finding it interesting. I am thus quite enjoying Kavalier and Clays setting out to create their own comic. And I find the little historical background information about comic books that is offered to be rather interesting.

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## Dark Muse

I have to admit some end notes, footnotes, glossary, or some such thing for the Jewish references/terms in the book would have proven helpful. There has been more than one occasion when while reading I came across some Yiddish term and I am totally clueless as to what they are talking about. 

Of course I can always, and do, look it up online. It would have been convenient if the book provided something.

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## applepie

My copy should be in today  :Banana:

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## Dark Muse

I find some things about this book to be quite fascinating. Though I never really seriously got into reading comics, I have always been on the fringe of being interested in them. Maybe it is just "lazy" of me that I won't take my time to read them, but I will see almost any movie made from comic books. And this day in age it seems like some of the better movies (at least for entertainment value) are taken from comics. 

I am really finding this book quite enlightening in the whole comic book culture and I loved their devolvement of "The Escapist" Escapism in general is something I always find very interesting in books and this book really brings out the fact that comics are about more than just guys in tights fighting crime. 

I like the way in which Joe at first starts out using the comics as a way to act out his own aggression and frustration at the situation, until the comics alone fail to truly satisfy his needs, and how "The Escapists" represents a combined alter ego between Joe and Sam.

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## neilgee

What I got from this book parallels what Dark Muse has said. I did read comics as a youngster but had no idea of the world the men who created them lived in, and obviously no suspicion of the homosexual element or the obscenity trail that comes later in the book.

Sorry I have not got much else to say but I read this novel about a year ago and the details are getting a little vague at the edges and though it's a good novel it's not the kind of thing I would read twice.

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## Dark Muse

> What I got from this book parallels what Dark Muse has said. I did read comics as a youngster but had no idea of the world the men who created them lived in, and obviously no suspicion of the homosexual element or the obscenity trail that comes later in the book.


Hmm maybe the homosexuality would explain why they are wore tights  :Smilewinkgrin: 

Of course I kid. 

On a more serious note, I did really like the way they explained the costume in the book. How it was meant to be a way of celebrating and embracing the movement of the body. 

It is almost a sort of Greek reverence for the human form, and it was as close as they could come to nudity. A sort of modern day version of the classical Greek nude heroes.

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## The Comedian

Just wanted to jump in here real quickly. I'm about 200 pages into the novel and have liked it quite a bit thus far, but not as much as I would like to. 

So far, what I haven't liked is the writing style which seems to be, in several places, over written. I remember one place when Joe was waking up one morning Chabon said something like ". . . .and the sky was blue; it was as blue as the ribbon on a first place lamb". . .eech! That last clause just seems so counter productive: instead of leaving me with an image of a blue sky (his intention) I get a picture of a fat sheep. Nice. 

And there are a lot of sentences and phrases in the novel that illustrate this over-writing style (in my opinion).

However, the idea that I really like is his addressing the low, pulpy origin of the American comic book in immigrant Jewish culture. 

I'll post some more thoughtful comments later; but I'm at work now and don't have my book with me (I just needed a little break).

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## Dark Muse

> Just wanted to jump in here real quickly. I'm about 200 pages into the novel and have liked it quite a bit thus far, but not as much as I would like to. 
> 
> So far, what I haven't liked is the writing style which seems to be, in several places, over written. I remember one place when Joe was waking up one morning Chabon said something like ". . . .and the sky was blue; it was as blue as the ribbon on a first place lamb". . .eech! That last clause just seems so counter productive: instead of leaving me with an image of a blue sky (his intention) I get a picture of a fat sheep. Nice. 
> 
> And there are a lot of sentences and phrases in the novel that illustrate this over-writing style (in my opinion).


The thing that kind of bothers me at times is the way in which every time I start a new chapter it makes me feel like i am jumping into the middle of a stroy. In which each new chapter will be about something that has nothing to do with what happened in the chapter before it and it always takes me a moment to get my barrings and figure out just what is going on. It gives me the feeling each time, that I have missed something.

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## JuniperWoolf

I'm still waiting for my copy to get to the library. Should be another week.

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## Dark Muse

One of the things that strikes out at me as being rather interesting, and quite unique from what I am use to reading in most books which deal with American culture, is how optimistic this book seems to be in the idea of the "American Dream" While things may not be altogether idealistically perfect, it is not the usual doom and gloom of what a shame the American Dream is. 

Thus far it seems instead to be a success story more so than a story of people having thier lives destroyed by buying into the "dream." It is a picture of possibilities, and what people can do who have talent and initiative and set thier minds to do. 

Perhaps that is part of the comic book nature of the story. Joe and Sammy, are like comic icons themselves in the way they represent unlikely possibilities in achieving thier own dreams, and most comics, at least what I know of them, while they do have a sort of dark side to them, offer with thier masked heroes, and defenders of justice, protectors of the innocent and inherently positive and optimistic message.

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## JuniperWoolf

I just got my copy today. I got through about fifty pages, I should be done in a couple of days.

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## The Comedian

> One of the things that strikes out at me as being rather interesting, and quite unique from what I am use to reading in most books which deal with American culture, is how optimistic this book seems to be in the idea of the "American Dream" While things may not be altogether idealistically perfect, it is not the usual doom and gloom of what a shame the American Dream is. 
> 
> Thus far it seems instead to be a success story more so than a story of people having thier lives destroyed by buying into the "dream." It is a picture of possibilities, and what people can do who have talent and initiative and set thier minds to do. 
> 
> Perhaps that is part of the comic book nature of the story. Joe and Sammy, are like comic icons themselves in the way they represent unlikely possibilities in achieving thier own dreams, and most comics, at least what I know of them, while they do have a sort of dark side to them, offer with thier masked heroes, and defenders of justice, protectors of the innocent and inherently positive and optimistic message.


This is a really interesting post, DM. And I can totally see that happening too. Carl Elbing, the Saboteur, has been one of the more interesting characters in the novel, and he is clearly set up to parallel the traditional comic book villain (in real life). In many ways, he's the same as Joe and Sammy, but has simply taken another course.

I've also really enjoyed seeing how those early comics writers and artists were taken for a ride, financially, by the companies that they worked for -- losing nearly all rights to their characters. 

Still, despite this financial manipulation, you're point -- that the book is more optimistic about the American dream is an important one. 

You know what I think this book really lacks? Art. It'd be great to see, every now and then, pages or panels from the Escapist or Luna Moth. . .

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## Dark Muse

> This is a really interesting post, DM. And I can totally see that happening too. Carl Elbing, the Saboteur, has been one of the more interesting characters in the novel, and he is clearly set up to parallel the traditional comic book villain (in real life). In many ways, he's the same as Joe and Sammy, but has simply taken another course.
> 
> I've also really enjoyed seeing how those early comics writers and artists were taken for a ride, financially, by the companies that they worked for -- losing nearly all rights to their characters. 
> 
> Still, despite this financial manipulation, you're point -- that the book is more optimistic about the American dream is an important one. 
> 
> You know what I think this book really lacks? Art. It'd be great to see, every now and then, pages or panels from the Escapist or Luna Moth. . .


Yet even despite how they are treated by their employers, and the way in which they have lost most to all rights to their own creations, Sammy and Joe still have done finically quite well for themselves. They are the classic case of going from nothing to "everything" the old rags to riches story. Especially Joe who started out as a refuge with nothing but the clothes upon his back. But through their talent, determination and hard work they were able to achieve finical success and move up the social class system in the world. 

Yes you make an interesting point about Elbing, just as like in the comic books, he is set up as a counter to Joe/The Escapist, and it is interesting the way in which comic books are reflected in the real lives of the characters and the connection that the author draws between the comics and life, and perhaps how the comics can be seen as a sort of exaggeration of real life, as well as how much the creators put themselves into the comics. 

I agree, there were moments when I would have loved to see what the characters looked like and had a glimpse of some of the comic books, and for a book that revolves around comics, I think it would have been a nice addition if the writer had incorporated that into the work in some way 

Haha though shortly after I posted my comment about the optimism in the book it started to take a sudden very depressing turn. 

Also random side note, reading this book made me suddenly want to go out and watch Citizen Kane which I have never seen before.

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## The Comedian

Man -- did the book take a sudden change! DM -- I think I hit that part just about after I posted my reply to your comments earlier. I was not at all prepared for the whole Joe in an Antarctic military base! And then Sammy and Rosa. . but that make a little more sense. 

This book is really trying hard to create a tragic/comedy feel with an aspect of the surreal without delving into fantasy. It's a tough line to write and I think that Chabon does it passably well, but on the whole, I've had trouble keeping into the story. . . . which is a shame because I really wanted to like this book. 

One thing that I think he does really well is to show the great role that immigrants (especially western European and Jewish) played in creating the American comic book and comic book culture. I think it'd be interesting now to read some of those early Golden Age titles with an eye for this context.

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## Dark Muse

> This book is really trying hard to create a tragic/comedy feel with an aspect of the surreal without delving into fantasy. It's a tough line to write and I think that Chabon does it passably well, but on the whole, I've had trouble keeping into the story. . . . which is a shame because I really wanted to like this book.


That is well said, and an interesting point. I was so sad about Sammy and Tracy, I was really rooting for them, but I had a sense considering the time period that it was destined to come to some tragic end, I was still holding out hope. 

I have to say after the shooting of the dog I nearly threw the book against the wall and wanted to just stop reading right there. That pissed me off so much, I could barely keep reading, and after that I kind of wanted Joe to die.

I am starting to recover from the trauma now. 




> One thing that I think he does really well is to show the great role that immigrants (especially western European and Jewish) played in creating the American comic book and comic book culture. I think it'd be interesting now to read some of those early Golden Age titles with an eye for this context.


Yes I agree for me the best part of this book was having a behind the scenes look into the world of comics and the prominent role that the Jewish immigrants had in comic book creation, and seeing how they came into being, and the story behind them. It earned me a new respect for comics.

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## David Lurie

I read this book a few years ago, the Pulitzer claimed my attention, I am not much into Chabon but this one is great because it has so many layers: basically it's a story about American pop culture but then involves WWII, homosexuality, immigration - the two main characters live in a completely different way their "american dream" - and then the "escapism" - maybe the main theme of the novel - this was such a satisfactory read!

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## applepie

I couldn't quite get into this story. I've tried and failed several times to get interested. It's well written, the story is somewhat intriguing, but something has kept it from grabbing me in :Frown:

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## Dark Muse

I just finished reading the book and all in all I thought it was an interesting book and I enjoyed it. One of the things I liked most about the book was the behind the scenes look it offered in the creation of comic books. I really enjoyed reading about the history of comics, and it did give me a new apperception for comics and a new way of looking at comic books. 

At times the book was a bit tedious to read, and I would not call it a captivating story, or a page turner. I did struggle to get through certain parts of it, but I think it was worth the reading and I am glad that I have done so. 

Though I am not usually one for sentimentality, I did find the relationship between Joe and Sammy and the way in which they had remained loyal to each other throughout the story to be quite touching and it was one of my favorite parts of the book. 

Also loved the way that "Escapist" theme played throughout the book and touched almost all of the characters in a variety of different ways, and the way their own life experience reflected the comic books and what the Escapist character stood for.

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## The Comedian

Yep -- I just finished reading the novel last night. And the last 100 pages or so I found really moving and page-turning (but on the whole I agree with DM's assessment above). The idea of escape became vibrant, sad, comical and overall -- real. I also really enjoyed Joe's return to the Golem, though I think that I do not fully understand the role of the Golem in the novel.

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## Dark Muse

> Yep -- I just finished reading the novel last night. And the last 100 pages or so I found really moving and page-turning (but on the whole I agree with DM's assessment above). The idea of escape became vibrant, sad, comical and overall -- real. I also really enjoyed Joe's return to the Golem, though I think that I do not fully understand the role of the Golem in the novel.


I agree that I am a bit sketchy on what role or significance the Golem is meant to play, as it both starts and ends with the Golem, bot the physical Golem and the comic Golem, clearly it is intended to be an important part to the story, but I cannot make out just what it is meant to represent. 

Perhaps the Golem coming back to Joe in nothing more than a pile of dust is what allows Joe to finally let go of the past, and realize that life is behind him now, and is what enables him to move forward and to take the money he saved for his family and finally be able to put it to use to by Empire for Sammy, and their return to the Golem in the comics, and being able to do things their own way now without needing Anapol, will mark a new adventure for them a new life in which they are all freed from the chains of their past. 

Sammy feels like he can live as he truly is now, and is rekindling interest in his old passion, and Joe has a chance to start over with a new family, without feeling bond to his original family.

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## The Comedian

> Perhaps the Golem coming back to Joe in nothing more than a pile of dust is what allows Joe to finally let go of the past, and realize that life is behind him now, and is what enables him to move forward and to take the money he saved for his family and finally be able to put it to use to by Empire for Sammy, and their return to the Golem in the comics, and being able to do things their own way now without needing Anapol, will mark a new adventure for them a new life in which they are all freed from the chains of their past.


Good stuff here. One of the best developments at the end of the novel, I felt, was the Golem returning to Joe in his casket only turned to dust. It was as though the old magic had dried out: the Kavalier & Clay team, the role of comics in the Golden Age, their own youthful exuberance in life and art. You also have in the image, the finalization of Joe's immigrant story: the Golem being clearly associated with Prague now turned to dust (as Europe was after the war) and Joe, having lost all connections to his European past is now fully American. Ashes to ashes and all that.

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## JuniperWoolf

At first I thought that it really was Joe's family (the whole ashes thing... I had images of furnaces) because he found that business card.

I loved how Sam finally went to California. Even though Bacon was dead and he was about thirteen years too late, he still made it over to where he should have been.

The golem - Joe said that all men make golems. Think of superman. Kind of an impervious strongman that everyone can rely on (think of Sammy's dad). They're supposed to be invincible. But of course, nothing is invincible (Sammy's dad died, and the golem turned to dust). I think that the golem was meant to represent that, the whole idea of father/costumed hero/ultimate protector being just a fantasy. If we could read Joe's big epic comic, I think the golem would have died in the end. Also, Joe had the notion that he himself would be a kind of perfect hero to his own family. After escaping from Nazi's, he's then supposed to go on to save his entire Jewish family and aid them in their escape as well? Oh, and he's also going to end the war. Of course he failed. He also joined the army so that he could take on the whole Nazi army. He failed at that as well, and when he killed that German scientist it was the worst moment in his life because real killing isn't like the glory that you see in comic books. Like he said, the whole idea of the comic book hero is just a wish. I think that was the golem. 

I also agree that the golem represented the European Jewish population (again, the fact that it turned to what appeared to be ashes). It does have strong cultural connnontations. It also failed to protect the Jews who were massacared, which is supposed to be it's purpose: to protect Jews. It was made to be a superhero, just like in the comics.

As for what I thought about this novel, I liked it a lot. I devoured it, it was a page turner for me. I loved the characters. I was dissapointed when things didn't go well for them. I liked how it was written too, that bit about the blue in the sky being like the blue of a prize lamb's ribbon, haha that stuck out as a really good line for me. After I read it, I was like "well, that was pretty good," and I wrote it down in my notebook (I always write things down in my notebook if I like them).

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## Scheherazade

Starting this book for the third time. I could not get into it earlier (probably I had too much on my plate) but this time I am enjoying it.


> EDIT: I did note that the early narrative of Josef's flight from Prague parallels the story of Superman/Moses: favored son of a dying land sent to find a rebirth in American/new land.


This is an interesting point and, as much as I adore Superman, I did not think of his story in line of Moses'.

I will post more as I read along  :Smile: 

Also, I did not know the idiom "to talk through one's hat". Fun!  :Biggrin:

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## Scheherazade

I was reminded of the movie "The Prestige" (we watched it in the Viewing Room last month) as I was reading through the chapter about Josef's training.

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## Mutatis-Mutandis

I know I'm reviving a really old thread here, but I just finished reading this, and I loved it. After this and _The Yiddish Policemen's Union_ Chabon is becoming a favorite of mine. I love his use of straightforward, yet vivid prose. I didn't feel it was over-written as Comedian said, but I got pretty immersed in it, and when that happens I usually browse right over any faults. 

I doubt I'll read it again, though, as I don't think a reread would add much--it's a pretty straightforward story, imo, even with the golem symbolism, which I found spot-on. I think it can be looked at positively and negatively. On the one hand, it could symbolize Joe finally letting go of his dark past (his guilt over his dead brother, his desire for revenge against the German, his guilt for leaving his son and his mother), but you could also see at as the end of his idealism when it came to comics, though even his comic writing/drawing wasn't really a "positive" outlet for Joe; it was all about revenge. 

Anyways, I loved the book. I agree that pictures would have been nice, but I don't think they were really necessary, as Chabon did an excellent job of describing everything.

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