# Reading > Forum Book Club >  April / Wharton Reading: 'Ethan Frome'

## Scheherazade

> A classic is classic not because it conforms to certain structural rules, or fits certain definitions (of which its author had quite probably never heard). It is classic because of a certain eternal and irrepressible freshness.


In April, we will be reading _Ethan Frome_ by Edith Wharton.

Please post your comments and questions here.

*Ethan Frome Online Text*

*Book Club Procedures*

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## SleepyWitch

I'm on chapter VIII (p.54 in the Norton edition)
the intro (frame) is a bit dull/confusing but after that the story really holds your attention (well, it holds mine at any rate).

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## Madhuri

I have read it and the book does seem to keep the attention till the end.

It seemed to me at many places that there is no conversation, as if someone is observing the thoughts and putting it in words. The feelings were mostly unsaid, maybe thats how the author wanted. Oh, and in some very romantic scenes I felt as if I am reading an MB  :Tongue:   :Tongue:

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## Pensive

I have just started it. Seems interesting, to me.  :Smile:

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## Madhuri

It is definitely interesting  :Nod:  The moment you think that after this scene now surely this (something very predictable) will happen, it just changes and takes a different turn.

What do you think of Zeena? Do you really see her as what Ethan thinks of her, or was he merely reacting?

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## Alexei

It is not exactly the type of books, I usually read, but it is very good one. But the end of it confused me a bit. I didn't expected exactly this (I usually predict what is going to happen at the end), but I think this is good after all. Exactly as Madhuri said, the action is just unpredictable  :Smile:   :Smile:   :Smile:  Still there is something that confuse me there and I can't explain it clearly. May be the problem is with the jump through the time and the sudden change of the narrator, I don't know. The action seems to be a bit slower than what I am get used to, but the characters descriptions are very full and that gives a wonderful notion for them.

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## Janine

I am up to Chapter 2 - will start that tonight. It strikes me that this book is one of the frame stories as someone else pointed out. I am not sure that is the exact terminology or correct terminology. But what I want to point out is the structure of the story is within the frame of someone telling the story first to the narrator. The author also stated, in the first paragraph, the fact that several versions were told to him, and so I imagine now the story he is now relating to us is really a combination of each. Any thoughts on this? 
The interesting part of the story is the mystery and the way Wharton is slowing unraveling the tale. It is a slowpaced book, but it does keep your interest wanting to find out the why and wherefore, and the writing is lovely. It is a little annoying to me that the author sometimes has such long run-on sentences. She seems a bit wordy but then when you go back over them you can see the point she is emphasising. I get lost in those long descriptions, but the graphic images of the bleakness of winter and the countryside reflects well the broken spirit and body of Ethan Frome.

Jumping ahead - when I was in highschool and read this book I recall thinking the ending very strange, but I think now I will have a different perspective on it and see the whole point more clearly.

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## Madhuri

> the graphic images of the bleakness of winter and the countryside reflects well the broken spirit and body of Ethan Frome.


That's interesting  :Nod:  I hadn't thought it this way.




> Jumping ahead - when I was in highschool and read this book I recall thinking the ending very strange, but I think now I will have a different perspective on it and see the whole point more clearly.


I got a bit confused about the ending.

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## Janine

> That's interesting  I hadn't thought it this way.


Hi *Madhuri*, 
Yes, always look for key words in the descriptive text - usually they will mimic the attitudes or conditons of the characters. The description and atmosphere can set the mood. All good authors use this device. For example: the sun might break through the clouds and then the story might take on a lighter, happier feel. Fine authors don't just write long descriptions for no reason. Always go back and look to the words and you will see much more in them. Also always read between the lines. There is always more that does not meet the eye.




> I got a bit confused about the ending.


Yes, when I was younger I was totally confused and in the dark about the ending. I don't clearly recall it now so you will have to wait till I am done with my reading of the book, so I can tell you how I feel about it now. Here is where you may have to read between the lines or use your own imagination to fill in the blanks.

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## SleepyWitch

I'm finished.

in my edition (Norton Critical Edition) there are ".....................................
.................................................. ..........." at the beginning and end of the main part.
do you have those?
they make the transition from the frame to the main story less confusing  :Smile: 

the ending was very surprising.. I'm not sure how i feel about it...
will talk about it in detail when everyone's read it  :Smile:

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## Janine

> I'm finished.
> 
> in my edition (Norton Critical Edition) there are ".....................................
> .................................................. ..........." at the beginning and end of the main part.
> do you have those?
> they make the transition from the frame to the main story less confusing 
> 
> the ending was very surprising.. I'm not sure how i feel about it...
> will talk about it in detail when everyone's read it


*Sleepywitch*, Yes, my book has the same thing - chapters that are not numbered, one preceeding the first chapter and one at the end of the book, is that what you mean by "...................."? So that is the frame - those two chapters. I have some commentary in my book, too, but will read then when I finish the novel.

Well, I am half way through and should finish it soon. I read it before so I know the ending but I am anxious to read it again with a new perspective. The end is a surprise and I have never known just how I feel about it either. We will see this time around.

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## SleepyWitch

yep, the frame chapters are not numbered and the first chapter of the main story is chapter I.
and there are dotted lines at the end of the first part of the frame. there's a footnote that says Wharton put those there as a visual signal that the main part is beginning

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## Alexei

> yep, the frame chapters are not numbered and the first chapter of the main story is chapter I.
> and there are dotted lines at the end of the first part of the frame. there's a footnote that says Wharton put those there as a visual signal that the main part is beginning


Ahhh! That's why I was so confuse! I read the book through DailyLit and there were no dotted lines and no footnotes of course. The last one was a bit sad, I began to love footnotes after James Joyce's works - there were so many of them!  :FRlol:   :FRlol:   :FRlol:

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## Janine

Oh, I see what you are talking about. My addition is older and just has the blank chapters, to start and finish. I have read other books with that format, so it did not throw me off. I think "Frankenstein" was written that way; I know it was written in a 'frame format' to tell the story, not sure if the first chapter was left un-numbered or un-named.

When are we going to discuss the book and the characters? I would like to start with Ethan's character, since he is the main character in the book, besides the narrator. What do you all think? If we jump ahead to the ending, I think it is too early to do so. We need to take the first couple of chapters and discuss them more extensively.

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## papayahed

Finished, not my favorite.

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## Alexei

> We need to take the first couple of chapters and discuss them more extensively.


It would be good to do so. But do we count the frame chapter or we start from the moment when Ethan starts narrating? I think it would be better if we start with the frame or left it for the end.

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## Schokokeks

> It strikes me that this book is one of the frame stories as someone else pointed out.[...] But what I want to point out is the structure of the story is within the frame of someone telling the story first to the narrator.


 :Wink: 

I've only read the introduction so far, I'm a bit busy at the moment preparing for Easter (my favourite holiday  :Nod: ).

Would your telling us why you didn't like it make details of the plot explicit, *papaya* ?  :Smile:

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## Nightshade

> In April, we will be reading _Ethan Frome_ by Edith Wharton.
> 
> Please post your comments and questions here.
> 
> *Ethan Frome Online Text*
> 
> *Book Club Procedures*


 :Bawling:  scher It wont let me through the link. Its saying 



> Nightshade, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
> 
> Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system? 
> If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.


HELP :Eek2:

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## papayahed

> scher It wont let me through the link. Its saying 
> 
> 
> 
> HELP


Maybe you've been banned. :Wink: 




> Would your telling us why you didn't like it make details of the plot explicit, *papaya* ?


yeah, something came up before I could expound further.  :Frown:  

I have to disagree with several members, I thought the plot was predictable and kinda slow. 

The interesting part was that everybody in a way got what they wanted. Ethan and Mattie stayed together and Zeena got something to do (I'm choosing to believe her sickness resulted more from her mind then anything else.).

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## bouquin

> I have read it and the book does seem to keep the attention till the end.
> 
> It seemed to me at many places that there is no conversation, as if someone is observing the thoughts and putting it in words. The feelings were mostly unsaid, maybe thats how the author wanted. Oh, and in some very romantic scenes I felt as if I am reading an MB




The feelings that were mostly unsaid were, I think, in keeping with Ethan's reticent nature. it was the author's way of letting us in to Ethan's world, of making us get to know him and understand him.

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## SleepyWitch

> The interesting part was that everybody in a way got what they wanted. Ethan and Mattie stayed together and Zeena got something to do (I'm choosing to believe her sickness resulted more from her mind then anything else.).


i was going to say "that nutter woman who's got nothing wrong with her except she needs her head examined".. but you've put it much more eloquently  :Smile: 

i don't think the plot is predictable...
first, i thought Ethans smash up was an accident.
then towards the end, I thought they'd die, which is obviously nonsense seeing as the narrator meets Ethan later....  :Idea:  but i thought Mattie would die

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## Pensive

I liked the ending! Otherwise, it would have made a boring read.

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## Virgil

I'm probably going to start reading this weekend. Sorry I'm behind. Hope people will still discuss this with me.

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## Alexei

> I liked the ending! Otherwise, it would have made a boring read.


Yes, I think so too. I think that if it wasn't the confusing ending the book would be average and quite common as plot line. I thought firstly they both are going to die, I even didn't thought that it's impossible because of the beginning of the book. After that I thought that Mattie will die, but I was wrong again. 
I have some problems with understanding Zeena character, somehow she seems a bit unreal to me, though i am sure there are people like her. I think there is something deeper in her, I think the author doesn't show everything about her. I feel as there are some blank moments in her character, I feel her a bit incomplete.

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## Janine

> Yes, I think so too. I think that if it wasn't the confusing ending the book would be average and quite common as plot line. I thought firstly they both are going to die, I even didn't thought that it's impossible because of the beginning of the book. After that I thought that Mattie will die, but I was wrong again. 
> I have some problems with understanding Zeena character, somehow she seems a bit unreal to me, though i am sure there are people like her. I think there is something deeper in her, I think the author doesn't show everything about her. I feel as there are some blank moments in her character, I feel her a bit incomplete.


*Alexei*, Believe me when I say I knew a woman just like Zeena. It was a very sad case. As with Ethan, the husband was sweet and traped and he gave her everything - he very much catered to her illness. She was delicate and yet she ruled his life in a passive-aggressive manor. I think I read this book in highschool and felt as you do - is Zeena a possible realistic person? But then, later, I did know this family with the very real mother just like Zeena. She even had the sunken thin appearance from her imagined illnesses. She doted on illness, ate poorly, and complained endlessly. Her family tried to help her, but they could not. She, also, doted on other people's illnesses and problems, especially deaths and cancer. She finally committed suicide by overdose. Her daughter said she just did not want to live anymore. Obviously the woman suffered greatly from a mental disorder. Hypochondria is a real certifiable mental illness. It may seem that Zeena is purely evil, but actually she is quite pathetic and selfish. In those days, mental illness and the recognition of it was quite a unheard of subject. The whole idea was still in the closet. People did not talk about that, unless they just called a person 'mad' or 'insane'. So, I think the things we don't see about Zeena, we _cannot_ see in this text, only imagine. She lives in a way we cannot fully relate to, in a world all to herself. She is really a very sad creature. Her illness makes her selfish and wanting of attention and making all people around her quite miserable. It is a very sad case. How can Ethan leave such a needy person? He has reasoned that out in his mind. He is too good a person to do so. Actually, Alexei, you are very sensitive - in mentally ill people there actually are "blank moments" in their character or mind. I know because I have studied about this, having a relative with a mental condition.

I think the ending of this story is great and very ironic, and definitely makes the book valid and a classic! I wonder if we should discuss the ending blatantly or specifically yet, when people on this thread are still reading the book. I think we need to repect that. If they know the ending now, it may spoil the book for them. I have not finished reading it, myself, but I do know the ending, having read the book before. I know Virgil has not read it and he will want to be surprised at the ending. If possible I don't think we should give away the ending. We could talk about the characters and how we percieve them or take chapter by chapter. We can easily start with the frame chapter.

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## byquist

I read it first time as a full adult and thought it was magnificent, but the 10th graders I taught it to did not get into it. It's a deep and serious work and I suppose requires a serious reader.

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## Janine

> I read it first time as a full adult and thought it was magnificent, but the 10th graders I taught it to did not get into it. It's a deep and serious work and I suppose requires a serious reader.


byquist - this is absolutely true, in my opinion. I also read it when young and did not really 'get it' or 'get into it'. Now I think the novel is wonderful and the end incredible. It does require a serious reader to understand the novel.

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## Alexei

I thought on the frame chapter and I was quite amazed how different it is as atmosphere of the other part of the book. Firstly I thought it is slower, but actually the more impressing difference is the feeling of mystery. In the beginning of the book there is some idea that everything round Ethan's life is like taboo - no one speak of it (with this introduction I have expected something different from such kind of love story  :Wink:  ) and after that when Ethan becomes the narrator the hole veil of mystery is just gone, everything become clear and almost everything seems visible (at least the facts needed for the progress of plot line).

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## bouquin

> I thought on the frame chapter and I was quite amazed how different it is as atmosphere of the other part of the book. Firstly I thought it is slower, but actually the more impressing difference is the feeling of mystery. In the beginning of the book there is some idea that everything round Ethan's life is like taboo - no one speak of it (with this introduction I have expected something different from such kind of love story  ) and after that when Ethan becomes the narrator the hole veil of mystery is just gone, everything become clear and almost everything seems visible (at least the facts needed for the progress of plot line).



The narrator does not change, from start to finish it is always the engineer on work assignment who tells the story. At the end of the introductory chapter he states: It was that night that I found the clue to Ethan Frome, and began to put together this vision of his story... (then immediately followed by chapter One).

It is just that in the introductory chapter the narrator is more involved, he is part of the scene, there is first person narration. By contrast, from chapters One to Nine, the same narrator is completely detached; he tells Ethan Frome's story as he imagines the way it would have transpired and at the same time tries to tell it from Ethan's point of view.

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## byquist

Janine, That Hamlet quote is interesting and I need to study it further. Lit. critics make a great deal about Conrad's mention of a nutshell in a diff. way in "Heart of Darkness." C's emphasis is not on the msg. from within, but the glow of the moonlight on the haze that is outside the nut. Meaning is derived from "outside" the nut, not inside. I wonder now if Conrad was creatively doing a take-off or departure from that Hamlet quote. Byquist

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## Alexei

> The narrator does not change, from start to finish it is always the engineer on work assignment who tells the story. At the end of the introductory chapter he states: It was that night that I found the clue to Ethan Frome, and began to put together this vision of his story... (then immediately followed by chapter One).
> 
> It is just that in the introductory chapter the narrator is more involved, he is part of the scene, there is first person narration. By contrast, from chapters One to Nine, the same narrator is completely detached; he tells Ethan Frome's story as he imagines the way it would have transpired and at the same time tries to tell it from Ethan's point of view.


Oh, yes, of course!!! I am such an idiot!  :Blush:   :Blush:   :Blush:  You are completely right. After all, almost th whole book is in 3d person, and I have seen this! Of course!!!

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## Janine

> Janine, That Hamlet quote is interesting and I need to study it further. Lit. critics make a great deal about Conrad's mention of a nutshell in a diff. way in "Heart of Darkness." C's emphasis is not on the msg. from within, but the glow of the moonlight on the haze that is outside the nut. Meaning is derived from "outside" the nut, not inside. I wonder now if Conrad was creatively doing a take-off or departure from that Hamlet quote. Byquist


*byquist*, well in the film version, when Hamlet recites this line, it always gets to me. I think - wow that is me! Some may think "what - a nut?" :FRlol:  Truly though I am happy in my own little/huge world of "infinite space" - everything is in the perception of life.
You bring up a very interesting point and analogy to "Heart of Darkness". Unfortunately I have not read the book, but now it interests me, and lately I have been hearing a lot about it. If Conrad is seeing the glow on the outside of the nut, then I would think it a 'departure'. Well, not unusual that he might have thought about the Shakespeare words, since all authors draw from knowledge of other authors, even subconsciously. Perhaps he wished to expand on the nutshell image and meaning or deviate and express his own perception. I personally see the shell as a 'confinement' that really is an 'expansion' - of mind and spirit. Some may say readers are in a world of their own and retreat from the real world, or dreamers, or visionaries. But perhaps their world is more 'real' than the 'physical' world which most would consider "real". This would be my understanding on the Shakespeare quote. What do you think? Certainly it is an interesting connection to the Conrad story. I will have to venture further into it.




> The narrator does not change, from start to finish it is always the engineer on work assignment who tells the story. At the end of the introductory chapter he states: It was that night that I found the clue to Ethan Frome, and began to put together this vision of his story... (then immediately followed by chapter One).
> 
> It is just that in the introductory chapter the narrator is more involved, he is part of the scene, there is first person narration. By contrast, from chapters One to Nine, the same narrator is completely detached; he tells Ethan Frome's story as he imagines the way it would have transpired and at the same time tries to tell it from Ethan's point of view.


*bouquin*, this is good and actually kicks off the book discussion very well, I think. It is interesting to note how the tone changes from introduction to core body of the book. It changed so much that Alexei even perceived that now Ethan was telling his own story. You are correct in that the narrator, too, takes on a different sort of role - less prominent and mades the story seem to be coming from Ethan's own persception or mind. I find this devise quite brilliant on Wharton's part. It does help to build suspense in a slowpaced sort of quiet way.

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## bouquin

> yeah, something came up before I could expound further.  
> 
> I have to disagree with several members, I thought the plot was predictable and kinda slow. 
> 
> The interesting part was that everybody in a way got what they wanted. Ethan and Mattie stayed together and Zeena got something to do (I'm choosing to believe her sickness resulted more from her mind then anything else.).




I think Zeena was merely a hypochondriac; otherwise, if she were really seriously ill she would already have died long ago trying to take care of Mattie and Ethan. At the end of the story she seemed to be the "healthiest" of them all. One could almost imagine her taking a kind of perverse delight in Mattie and Ethan's tragic situation.

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## papayahed

> I think Zeena was merely a hypochondriac; otherwise, if she were really seriously ill she would already have died long ago trying to take care of Mattie and Ethan. At the end of the story she seemed to be the "healthiest" of them all. One could almost imagine her taking a kind of perverse delight in Mattie and Ethan's tragic situation.



I wonder if she knew there was something between Mattie and Ethan? It seem like not much escaped her.

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## Janine

> I think Zeena was merely a hypochondriac; otherwise, if she were really seriously ill she would already have died long ago trying to take care of Mattie and Ethan. At the end of the story she seemed to be the "healthiest" of them all. One could almost imagine her taking a kind of perverse delight in Mattie and Ethan's tragic situation.


*bouquin,* Oh, Yes, I agree. I think basically Zeena was a hypochondriac and she was actually quite ill mentally, but physically she probably played up any ach or pain and took all kinds of medication - perhaps just making herself sick and weak in the process. She definitely magnified anything she wanted to like the new doctor's report or advice. We never really know exactly what that doctor told her - only what she wanted us to believe was true. Good point - if seriously ill she would have died by now, shame she didn't. Of course we should not forget that in her mentally ill state she is a self-centered, pathetic person. And how did taking care of Ethan's parents make her ill? She, artfully, throws that one up in Ethan's face, somewhere towards the end of the book. She knew how to hit him at a low point and to inflict a guilt trip on him as well. Good point - ironically, at the end of the novel she does appear to be the healtiest of all the characters and I do think she would delight in the tragedy of Mattie and Ethan's situation. It would put her on top and the winner in the end, at least in her eyes.

*Papayahead*, To your question: 



> I wonder if she knew there was something between Mattie and Ethan? It seem like not much escaped her.


I do think that Zeena is aware of Mattie and Ethan's feeling for each other, from the beginning. Yes, of course when she goes away for the night and leaves them alone in the house, she tries to set them up so she can catch them at something indescent or irregular. She is very coniving, don't you think? If she catches them in anything out of the ordinary, such as the breaking of the pickle dish, and the reason the pickle dish was even used for dinner to begin with, she has a great excuse or reason to send Mattie away for good. It is some bit of evidence to back up her vague feelings and be justified as a wife to rid herself of this girl, who she now sees as a threat to her marriage. Of course we all know it is not much of a marriage, but to Zeena it is all she really has. Any breakup would undermine her own security. Zeena is a very controlling person or at least tries to be.

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## bouquin

> [B]I do think that Zeena is aware of Mattie and Ethan's feeling for each other, from the beginning. Yes, of course when she goes away for the night and leaves them alone in the house, she tries to set them up so she can catch them at something indescent or irregular. She is very coniving, don't you think? If she catches them in anything out of the ordinary, such as the breaking of the pickle dish, and the reason the pickle dish was even used for dinner to begin with, she has a great excuse or reason to send Mattie away for good. It is some bit of evidence to back up her vague feelings and be justified as a wife to rid herself of this girl, who she now sees as a threat to her marriage. Of course we all know it is not much of a marriage, but to Zeena it is all she really has. Any breakup would undermine her own security. Zeena is a very controlling person or at least tries to be.



I find Zeena very controlling indeed. And Ethan's weakness is that he succumbs to the control wielded by the two women in his life. Firstly, he cannot bring himself to defy the moral and social control that Zeena has over him through their being married; and secondly, he is just so wishy-washy about his plans to run off with Mattie and it is she who decides what they should do to get out of their seemingly hopeless predicament. Ethan just goes along with what the women want.

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## Virgil

I'm through chapter seven, so almost finished. But I expect a big climax coming. I'm really enjoying this work. I'm finding a well crafted novel. It's such a short, fast, and enjoyable read i think I'll re-read it again right after. I'll hold my thoughts until I'm through it once.

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## Janine

> I find Zeena very controlling indeed. And Ethan's weakness is that he succumbs to the control wielded by the two women in his life. Firstly, he cannot bring himself to defy the moral and social control that Zeena has over him through their being married; and secondly, he is just so wishy-washy about his plans to run off with Mattie and it is she who decides what they should do to get out of their seemingly hopeless predicament. Ethan just goes along with what the women want.


*bouquin*, I do think Ethan gets manipulated by both women, but mostly Zeena. I think your explanation of the ending is a little too pat or perfect. I recall an entire passage when Ethan carefully goes over all the options he has in his mind to elope with Matty and go West. In the final analysis the whole idea is really quite hopeless. I agree in retrospect, that that would probably have been the better option, but at the time Ethan felt totally trapped in all ways: emotionally, financially, and ultimately in his duty to his wife in not leaving her destitude. I will try to find the passages online and copy to post those paragraphs, in which he reasons all of it out, finally coming to the conclusion there is no way out for him. He is dedicated to both women and that is why he does go along with Matty. Of course, that decision is spontaneous, maybe as an act of passion, and not well thought out, but it was a 'option' as to how to escape their predictament.




> I'm through chapter seven, so almost finished. But I expect a big climax coming. I'm really enjoying this work. I'm finding a well crafted novel. It's such a short, fast, and enjoyable read i think I'll re-read it again right after. I'll hold my thoughts until I'm through it once.


*Virgil*, well put, describing this book! I thought you would like it. It *is* a 'well crafted novel'. The theme of the book sort of reminds me of D.H.Lawrence's short stories. EF is short and easy to read. I think I read it now 3 times. A second reading will be beneficial to you. I think it is a beautifully written novel.

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## Schokokeks

I'm done with it, too, and liked it very much  :Nod: . Brevity _is_ the soul of wit  :Biggrin: .




> It seems like not much escaped [Zeena].





> I think basically Zeena was a hypochondriac and she was actually quite ill mentally [...] 
> Of course we should not forget that in her mentally ill state she is a self-centered, pathetic person.


I agree with papaya and the hypochondriac idea, but I would not call Zeena mentally ill. But this of course depends on whether one uses that expression in a pathological sense or merely to say she was behaving excentrically.
I had the impression that she was well aware of all that was happening around her and used her alleged weakness / frailty to pull the threads and to tie Ethan to her, knowing about his sense of duty. I do not think a mentally ill person (pathological), depending on the degree, of course, would be that contriving.




> And how did taking care of Ethan's parents make her ill? She, artfully, throws that one up in Ethan's face, somewhere towards the end of the book. She knew how to hit him at a low point and to inflict a guilt trip on him as well.


I agree, that was quite a hit  :Smile: . Ethan confesses at some point that after his mother had died and Zeena was about to leave again, he panicked with the idea to be alone in the house and, out of that fear, proposed to her.
Contrary to Zeena, who always has her will, Ethan is presented being such a wimp  :Biggrin: .

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## Janine

> I'm done with it, too, and liked it very much . Brevity _is_ the soul of wit .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with papaya and the hypochondriac idea, but I would not call Zeena mentally ill. But this of course depends on whether one uses that expression in a pathological sense or merely to say she was behaving excentrically.
> I had the impression that she was well aware of all that was happening around her and used her alleged weakness / frailty to pull the threads and to tie Ethan to her, knowing about his sense of duty. I do not think a mentally ill person (pathological), depending on the degree, of course, would be that contriving.


*Hi, Schokokeks*,
Well, I live with a person with bipolar disorder and believe me they can be very aware, very manipulative, very contriving, and very mean (at times) as well. Sly is a good way of putting their behavior, also, and they are keen and smart, as well. If not on the right medication, there behavior would be even more pronounced and evident. There are many degrees of mental illness and that is only one disorder that I mentioned. I knew a woman who was a true hypochondriatic and her family loved her but they suffered greatly. She was very contriving and manipulative. Sadly enough she took an overdose and died one day alone. They are very pathetic people.



> I agree, that was quite a hit . Ethan confesses at some point that after his mother had died and Zeena was about to leave again, he panicked with the idea to be alone in the house and, out of that fear, proposed to her.
> Contrary to Zeena, who always has her will, Ethan is presented being such a wimp .


I hate hearing people call Ethan a whimp. I don't see it that way. He was financially and emotionally trapped. He knew no other thing, but taking care of people. He was disfunctional as all the characters are in this story, but he was hardly a whimp. A whimp could not provide for three people and Ethan worked hard to do so. He was a certain quiet personality and a dreamer, but not a whimp in my definition of the word.

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## SleepyWitch

> He knew no other thing, but taking care of people. He was disfunctional as all the characters are in this story, but he was hardly a whimp. A whimp could not provide for three people and Ethan worked hard to do so. He was a certain quiet personality and a dreamer, but not a whimp in my definition of the word.


i think his life is determined by the social circumstances he lives in. when he consideres eloping with Mattie he nearly decides to do it but then he can't make up his mind because a) he feels he has to support Zeena and b) he doesn't have enough money to go west.

if he could shake off his traditional views (the husband has to provide for the wife etc) and free himself from these obligations he'd be able to leave Zeena. 
also, if he were less realistic/materialistic he and Mattie could go West anyway. they'd be destitute tramps but at least they'd be together.
the only way of living he knows is to live as a married man and hard-working farmer.

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## Virgil

I finished last night and I think this is an excellent novel. Although I must say I have mixed feelings on the climax. This was such a fast and pleasurable read, I'm going to re-read it before I comment on the ending.

Some good points already made. Let me give some of my thoughts.

As to the frame structure, Wharton's use here seems closer to Emily Bronte's use in Wuthering Heights. Wharton does it I think (IMO, before anyone jumps on me for thinking I'm an authority) to present an outsider's perspective up front. The core of the novel is told from Ethan's point of view, and I assume he is the one telling the narrator the story, and the narrator has written it out. To present an eye witness looking in at Ethan up front does several things: it separates the world that Ethan lives in as opposed to the outside world; it introduces another's value judgement; it gives the story more foundation as fact; it brings the reader in as if to say, look at this weird guy (we've all have seen such weird guys), what's his story? If the story was told only from the weird guy's point of view, then we wouldn't have the contrast. Ethan's world is quite distinct in many ways, somewhat out dated (perhaps there's a better word?) at the turn of the 20th century, but certainly still existed in rural pockets.

Another interesting fact is that the narrator is an engineer, and that Ethan had studied engineering in Worcester, the big city. Worcester is an industrial city, I've been there, and while somewhat delapidated today because it has not quite made the transition to the computer age, was an important technical center 100 years ago. There are good technical universties there still. This really caught my attention, since I'm an engineer  :Tongue:  , and given that both characters were or almost were engineers cannot be coincidence. There is clearly a suggestion here that Wharton is making, and given the shocking and detailed hard farming life that she narrates, presents a contrast between the modern world and an old world.

Another point, nature is no friend here. I don't recall reading any scene (except ironically the climax) where nature is mild and pleasurable. It is brutal and at odds with everything human. Janine somewhere above mentions some similarity to D.H. Lawrence. Yes, Ethan is taciturn and simple like some of Lawrence's characters, emotional and tied to natural cycles, but even where nature is brutal in Lawrence (and there are plenty of places) it is at least spiritual. I don't recall nature ever being spiritual here. The old world is not glorified here.

More points to come in future posts.

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## SleepyWitch

> To present an eye witness looking in at Ethan up front does several things: it separates the world that Ethan lives in as opposed to the outside world; it introduces another's value judgement; it gives the story more foundation as fact; it brings the reader in as if to say, look at this weird guy (we've all have seen such weird guys), what's his story? If the story was told only from the weird guy's point of view, then we wouldn't have the contrast.


hello Uncle Virgil  :Wave: 

yep, that's exactly what i thought, too. The narrator in the frame directly addresses the reader and draws his/her/their attention to Ethan. 
If the story were told only by Ethan himself we might think "So what? what's this old fart on about? who cares about the story of his life?" but the narrator has already singled him out as an interesting person and makes us curious to learn more about him.

Wharton herself was unhappy with the frame but she couldn't think of any better way to do it.
Personally speaking, I don't like frames too much, but this particularly story would be a bit lame without the frame.

about the engineer-narrator... did he strike anyone else as a bit feminine?
i know he's supposed to be a male but to me he read like a female, especially because of his 'feminine gaze' (the way he describes Ethans face, takes an interest in a random male stranger, and is shy around him, particularly when they go to the train station on Ethans sleigh)

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## Virgil

> Wharton herself was unhappy with the frame but she couldn't think of any better way to do it.
> Personally speaking, I don't like frames too much, but this particularly story would be a bit lame without the frame.


Did she commet on it? I would like to read her thoughts on the structure. I doubt I'll have the time, but I would need to go to a research library and that's an hour a way in Manhatten for me.




> about the engineer-narrator... did he strike anyone else as a bit feminine?
> i know he's supposed to be a male but to me he read like a female, especially because of his 'feminine gaze' (the way he describes Ethans face, takes an interest in a random male stranger, and is shy around him, particularly when they go to the train station on Ethans sleigh)


I didn't get that sense. When I read it a second time I'll look for it. Perhaps you picked up Wharton's persona in the writing.

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## SleepyWitch

great... i wrote a reply to Virgil's post and my computer got stuck up and ate the post. now I'd have to write it all again...  :Frown:  :Flare:

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## Virgil

> great... i wrote a reply to Virgil's post and my computer got stuck up and ate the post. now I'd have to write it all again...


That's happened to me too.  :Flare:  It really angers me too.

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## SleepyWitch

oops, it is there after all....

yep Wharton commented on the structure. there are some letters by Wharton in the Norton Critical Edition.. but i've pretty much quoted all it says there.

yep, maybe it was her persona shining through the narrator... maybe she didn't take too much effort to efface her own voice in the frame... later on, in the main story, i didn't get that sense (i mean the narrator didn't sound feminine)

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## Scheherazade

Finished reading the book over the weekend and I cannot say I am as impressed with it as I was with _Age of Innocence_. Even though Wharton's writing style is still wonderful and keeps the reader (or at least me) engaged, I didn't care much about the storyline; too sentimental and tragic for my liking.

Virgil> I was also thinking of _Wuthering Heights_ while reading it.

Sleepy> I think the narrator sounds too 'mild' compared to 'country folks' who dominate the book. He is an outsider, an educated town person, which might explain the 'feminine' vibe you get.

I think Ethan is singled out from the very beginning of the story; in the first chapter, his name is repeated ever so often in full, 'Ethan Frome', that the reader cannot help getting interested in him.

Wondering if anyone else noted the parallel between his relationship with his mother, wife and Mattie... First, he is fond of his mother's company, when she used to be well and chatty. When she falls ill and looked after by Zeena, he develops a fondness for her company. However, she falls ill too (I agree with above posts that she is hypochondriac) and is not a lively person anymore. And finally, Mattie comes to look after Zeena and he develops a fondness for her. It is very ironic, in my opinion, that at the end Mattie also loses her liveliness and turns into a bitter person and Ethan is stuck with them both. I cannot help wondering whether he would have developed a liking for her too had there been another person looking after Mattie at the end...

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## Virgil

> Virgil> I was also thinking of _Expectations_ while reading it.


Great Expectations? In what way?




> Wondering if anyone else noted the parallel between his relationship with his mother, wife and Mattie... First, he is fond of his mother's company, when she used to be well and chatty. When she falls ill and looked after by Zeena, he develops a fondness for her company. However, she falls ill too (I agree with above posts that she is hypochondriac) and is not a lively person anymore. And finally, Mattie comes to look after Zeena and he develops a fondness for her. It is very ironic, in my opinion, that at the end Mattie also loses her liveliness and turns into a bitter person and Ethan is stuck with them both. .


Yes, his life history is where he is in constant care of the women around him. In the end he strikes me to be that horse that he trugs along.




> I cannot help wondering whether he would have developed a liking for her too had there been another person looking after Mattie at the end


Perhaps, but we will never know.

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## Scheherazade

Bah! I wanted to say _Wuthering Heights_, not _Expectations_!

I also said _Expectations_ instead of _David Copperfield_ during a discussion tonight... Maybe I should read _Expectations_ again!  :Tongue:

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## Virgil

> Bah! I wanted to say _Wuthering Heights_, not _Expectations_!
> 
> I also said _Expectations_ instead of _David Copperfield_ during a discussion tonight... Maybe I should read _Expectations_ again!


 :FRlol:   :FRlol:  And you've gotten into the habit of calling me old and senile.  :Biggrin:  

Yes, I think there are several similarites to Wuthering Heights.

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## papayahed

It doesn't say but I'm wondering if Ethan took a re-liking to Zeena once she started taking care of Mattie?? 


I kinda want to say "that poor Bastard, he never had a chance", but I just can't seem to find any pity for the guy.

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## Janine

> Did she commet on it? I would like to read her thoughts on the structure. I doubt I'll have the time, but I would need to go to a research library and that's an hour a way in Manhatten for me.
> 
> 
> I didn't get that sense. When I read it a second time I'll look for it. Perhaps you picked up Wharton's persona in the writing.


I have several comments after reading the posts on the last two pages - wow, this thread got away from me, all of a sudden. First off in the introduction in my own book, Cythnia Griffin Wolfe, in 1922 (granted this is an older book and quote) quotes Wharton as saying:

"It was not until I wrote _Ethan Frome_ that I suddenly felt the artisan's full control of his implements. When _Ethan Frome_ first appeared I was severly criticized by the reviewers for what was considered the clumsy structure of the tale. I had pondered long on the structure.....but could think of no alternative which would serve as well in the given case, [and] I am still sure that its structure is not its weak point."

Then the introduction gives a few pages of biographical background about Edith Wharton which is of much interest, but too long to type. Next in the introduction, of interest, are the following passages:

"_Ethan Frome_ is a dramatic departure from these [the early fiction] in several ways, most notably in that it does not deal with a series of mutilating social prohibitions. Instead, it addresses the lethal inclination to passivity that dwells deeply buried in every human heart. What is more, it deals with this problem from an artist's point of view, for the principal 'character' in _Ethan Frome_ is not the man who gives the novel its title, but the storyteller who recounts his tale to us."

Then this a bit later on in the text:

"_Ethan Frome_ begins with a narrator who has become fascinated with a local 'story' and by the man who seems central to its meaning, Ethan Frome. A sophisticated engineer, busy with his own work, this narrator would appear to have little in common with the taciturn, slow-moving cripple; nonetheless, as the narrator begins to make Ethan Frome's acquaintance, peculiar similarities emerge. Frome studied engineering himself as a young man; most surprising of all, like the narrator, who has spent the previous year on a job in Florida, Frome himself escaped the cold of Starkfield briefly and sojourned in the warmth of Florida once in the long-distant past. In 1910, the year before Ethan Frome appeared, Wharton pulished a book of short stories _Tales of Men and Ghosts_. In it, there are three stories that deal with the theme of the double --a character who encounters a kind of alter-ego--and in one of these stories, 'The Legend', the alter-ego is named Mr. Winterman. Now in _Ethan Frome_, Wharton brings her experimentation with doubles to its culmination. Ethan Frome is the narrator's double, his 'Winterman,' the person he might become if he were isolated from the busy world of human vitality and constrained to submit to the force of cold, whatever that might prove to be."

I have more to add but this is good for now.

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## Virgil

> "_Ethan Frome_ begins with a narrator who has become fascinated with a local 'story' and by the man who seems central to its meaning, Ethan Frome. A sophisticated engineer, busy with his own work, this narrator would appear to have little in common with the taciturn, slow-moving cripple; nonetheless, as the narrator begins to make Ethan Frome's acquaintance, peculiar similarities emerge. Frome studied engineering himself as a young man; most surprising of all, like the narrator, who has spent the previous year on a job in Florida, Frome himself escaped the cold of Starkfield briefly and sojourned in the warmth of Florida once in the long-distant past. In 1910, the year before Ethan Frome appeared, Wharton pulished a book of short stories _Tales of Men and Ghosts_. In it, there are three stories that deal with the theme of the double --a character who encounters a kind of alter-ego--and in one of these stories, 'The Legend', the alter-ego is named Mr. Winterman. Now in _Ethan Frome_, Wharton brings her experimentation with doubles to its culmination. Ethan Frome is the narrator's double, his 'Winterman,' the person he might become if he were isolated from the busy world of human vitality and constrained to submit to the force of cold, whatever that might prove to be."


Thanks Janine. I take it was the critic who wrote that. There is somethng to it, but I'm not completely sold. Yes, there is a bit of a doppelgänger between the two characters, but the narrator's character is rather undeveloped for it to be significant, at least in my book. To me he just serves as a window into Ethan. To be a real doppelgänger the minor character has to learn something of himself by viewing the character under scrutiny, like Joseph Conrad's story, "The Secret Sharer." The narrator could have learned something here about himself, but what?

I just re-read the framing preface, and I was astounded how much more signifcance it carries now. If everyone has fifteen minutes, re-read just that. There is no way to pick up what is being said without having read the entire novel first.

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## Janine

> Thanks Janine. I take it was the critic who wrote that. There is somethng to it, but I'm not completely sold. Yes, there is a bit of a doppelgänger between the two characters, but the narrator's character is rather undeveloped for it to be significant, at least in my book. To me he just serves as a window into Ethan. To be a real doppelgänger the minor character has to learn something of himself by viewing the character under scrutiny, like Joseph Conrad's story, "The Secret Sharer." The narrator could have learned something here about himself, but what?
> 
> I just re-read the framing preface, and I was astounded how much more signifcance it carries now. If everyone has fifteen minutes, re-read just that. There is no way to pick up what is being said without having read the entire novel first.


*Virgil*, Thanks for seeing my post and answering it. Took awhile to type all that. I don't think that the critic is saying doppelganger - not sure it is the same exact thought. Just that the character can relate to Ethan in a similiar way such as people sharing like interests, etc. I agree that the idea or connection is under-developed, but then again it just may be subtle.

Good, I was waiting for someone to answer my post so I could post this, which will relate to the whole introduction (framing preface) to the book:

Excerpt from Introduction, which greatly explains Whartons choice as to the narration and structure of the book. This passage written by Edith Wharton herself:

The real merit of my construction seems to me to lie in a minor detail. I had to find means to bring my tragedy, in a way at once natural and picture-making, to the knowledge of its narrator. I might have sat him down before a village gossip who would have poured out the whole affair to him in a breath, but in doing this I should have been false to two essential elements of my picture: first, the deep-rooted reticence and inarticulateness of the people I was trying to draw, and secondly the effect of roundness(in the plastic sense) produced by letting their case be seen through eyes as different as those of Harmon Gow and Mrs. Ned Hale. Each of my chroniclers contributes to the narrative just so much as he or she is capable of understanding of what, to them, is a complicated and mysterious case; and only the narrator of the tale has scope enough to see it all, to resolve it back into simplicity, and to put it in its rightful place among his larger categories.

*Virgil*, good idea - I am going to re-read the first part tonight.

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## Virgil

> *Virgil*, Thanks for seeing my post and answering it. Took awhile to type all that. I don't think that the critic is saying doppelganger - not sure it is the same exact thought. Just that the character can relate to Ethan in a similiar way such as people sharing like interests, etc. I agree that the idea or connection is under-developed, but then again it just may be subtle.


Yes, her use of "double" is the same. 



> doppelganger: in German, this word means double-goer, the ghostly shadow that haunts and follows its earthly counterpart; the negative or evil manifestation of what is actually on the inside of the haunted character. The Creature is Victor Frankensteins doppelganger.


http://www.studyguide.org/lit_terms.htm
We just don't get enough of the narrator to see if there is a part of him that is like Ethan. At least I don't think so.




> The real merit of my construction seems to me to lie in a minor detail. I had to find means to bring my tragedy, in a way at once natural and picture-making, to the knowledge of its narrator. I might have sat him down before a village gossip who would have poured out the whole affair to him in a breath, but in doing this I should have been false to two essential elements of my picture: first, the deep-rooted reticence and inarticulateness of the people I was trying to draw, and secondly the effect of roundness(in the plastic sense) produced by letting their case be seen through eyes as different as those of Harmon Gow and Mrs. Ned Hale. Each of my chroniclers contributes to the narrative just so much as he or she is capable of understanding of what, to them, is a complicated and mysterious case; and only the narrator of the tale has scope enough to see it all, to resolve it back into simplicity, and to put it in its rightful place among his larger categories.


Well, the very first sentence of the novel is, "I had the story, bit by bit, from various people, and, as generally happens in such cases, each time it was a different story." Do you think Wharton is saying that she does not get part of the story from Ethan? If not, how could she know his internal feelings?

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## Janine

> Yes, her use of "double" is the same. 
> 
> http://www.studyguide.org/lit_terms.htm
> We just don't get enough of the narrator to see if there is a part of him that is like Ethan. At least I don't think so.
> 
> 
> Well, the very first sentence of the novel is, "I had the story, bit by bit, from various people, and, as generally happens in such cases, each time it was a different story." Do you think Wharton is saying that she does not get part of the story from Ethan? If not, how could she know his internal feelings?


Virgil, 
No, I think she gets information from Ethan through the engineer. He is befriending him or having some contact with him and some bits of conversation must come out and reveal something to him about Ethan. Mostly though I think the story is surmised. No one can know all the truth or all the true feelings of Ethan or the other characters involved in this tragedy...note Wharton uses the word "tragedy". Some people are questioning that ending. This is a tragedy just like Shakespeare's plays are sometimes tragedies. In SH there is death at the end but in this novel the death is emotional death. It is a story, just like the bible - put together from different accounts and different people, colored by their ideas and beliefs. One sifts through all that to find the truth or the essense of the truth. Yes, that first sentence *is* highly significant.

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## Virgil

I keep seeing the contrast between the modern world and Ethan's old world. Notice this passage from the Preface:




> Another day, on getting into my train at the Flats, I missed a volume of popular science- I think it was on some recent discoveries in bio-chemistry- which I had carried with me to read on the way. I thought no more about it till I got into the sleigh again that evening, and saw the book in Frome's hand.
> 
> "I found it after you were gone," he said.
> 
> I put the volume into my pocket and we dropped back into our usual silence; but as we began to crawl up the long hill from Corbury Flats to the Starkfield ridge I became aware in the dusk that he had turned his face to mine.
> 
> "There are things in that book that I didn't know the first word about," he said.
> 
> I wondered less at his words than at the queer note of resentment in his voice. He was evidently surprised and slightly aggrieved at his own ignorance.
> ...


"There have been some big strides lately..." sums it up. Also the word "inertia" is so significant in describing Ethan.

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## Janine

> I keep seeing the contrast between the modern world and Ethan's old world. Notice this passage from the Preface:
> 
> 
> 
> "There have been some big strides lately..." sums it up. Also the word "inertia" is so significant in describing Ethan.


Good observation. It does sun it up. This incident now gives the narrator a little window into the true nature of Ethan. The contrast is the old younger Ethan, eager for knowledge and learning and the resigned one now who is well described by the word "inertia". This is the point that Wharton is saying to begin with, or maybe it was the critic. Oh, definite contrasts in many aspects of the book. And there are similarities as well - the cold landscape and the cold people, even the town folk - so distant and cold. What, the one woman visits the house once or twice a year? Not really too friendly. The town folk are like the "parting of the waters" when Ethan arrives in town. They shy away from him completely and he they. The man is in total alienation in any social form of life.

Yes, I agree on your earlier post about comparing to L. I sort of just meant the tone of the story, but not the ending at all. Just some similarities to me - the relationship to the landscape, but also Hardy-like and a dozen other authors - just the devise they use to set mood, in this case cold and snowy.

Ok, does "alter-ego" mean the exact same thing as "doppleganger"? I was about to look those words up in my big dictionary and compare. She said "alter-ego" and pointed out the coincidental likenesses, not that they were exact replicas of each other. It was coincidental. I will get back to you on the definitions of the two words later on.

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## Virgil

> The man is in total alienation in any social form of life.


Yes, that may be the overarching theme of the enitre novel. Very good point.




> Yes, I agree on your earlier post about comparing to L. I sort of just meant the tone of the story, but not the ending at all. Just some similarities to me - the relationship to the landscape, but also Hardy-like and a dozen other authors - just the devise they use to set mood, in this case cold and snowy.


Actually this does have the feel of a Hardy novel. The climax does seem Hardy-esk.




> Ok, does "alter-ego" mean the exact same thing as "doppleganger"? I was about to look those words up in my big dictionary and compare. She said "alter-ego" and pointed out the coincidental likenesses, not that they were exact replicas of each other. It was coincidental. I will get back to you on the definitions of the two words later on.


I guess they mean similar. Doppleganger is a literary term while alter ego is a psycho babble term. 




> Alter ego
> Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Cite This Source
> 
> An alter ego (Latin, "the other I") is a second self, a second personality or persona within a person. The term is commonly used in literature analysis and comparison to describe characters who are psychologically identical.


This is my problem with that critic. Yes, the two characters both have that egineering common detail, but what else? I don't see anything. All we know is that the narrator is fascinated with Ethan. So would almost anyone. All I see is curiosity, not a psychological double. But I could be wrong. Maybe I'm making too much of this.

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## Schokokeks

> I hate hearing people call Ethan a whimp. I don't see it that way.


I am sorry to have brought up your hatred (quite a strong word, I find). I do not think there is any necessity for it if the only cause is your seeing Ethan in another way. But you are free to hate, of course  :Smile: .
Having reread my post, I think I did not get all the connotations of the word wimp. However, I was not saying that Ethan _was_ a wimp, but that compared to Zeena,


> Ethan is *presented* being such a wimp


, in case you are looking at him from the rather macho point of view that I was making fun of by including a " :Biggrin: " at the end of the sentence.
I did not in any case want to deny Ethan personality and character, but I guess I failed to express myself properly  :Smile: .
But never mind  :Smile: .

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## Janine

> I am sorry to have brought up your hatred (quite a strong word, I find). I do not think there is any necessity for it if the only cause is your seeing Ethan in another way. But you are free to hate, of course .
> Having reread my post, I think I did not get all the connotations of the word wimp. However, I was not saying that Ethan _was_ a wimp, but that compared to Zeena,, in case you are looking at him from the rather macho point of view that I was making fun of by including a "" at the end of the sentence.
> I did not in any case want to deny Ethan personality and character, but I guess I failed to express myself properly .
> But never mind .


Schokokeks, no problem really. I should have said "dislike" and not "hate". I don't and could not hate anyone. Other people besides you have called Ethan so or weak. To me Ethan is in a state of iertia. All the characters are. In fact it is almost as thought Ethan is co-dependent...a person needing to be needed, playing into the whole scheme of things....unable to break away phychologically. My offense to using the word 'whimp' is that it is a stereotype phrase and does not do justice in all fairness to Ethan's complicated personality. Do you see Zeena as strong? She may appear to be stronger than Ethan to you and others, but isn't she weak in her dependence on others and her mind that is trapped full of hypochondriac notions? She certainly is a non-functional human being in any social sense. She bosses and manipulated her husband, it is true. Also, she does so with Matty, but this in my eyes, does not make her strong. Bully's are not strong - they are actually weak. I see Ethan as the only one keeping thing together. It is true that Matty is inefficient, but the book did not say that she did not try to be otherwise. Always Ethan is called to be the strong one and take over. I don't see him as weak, but all are welcome to their opinion. Debating and disagreeing on the topic makes for heathy conversation on here.
No the big deal and your smilie did not make me mad. I would never get mad over a silly thing like that.

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## Virgil

I want to contrast two paragraghs from the Preface that i think highlights this old world versus new world that I keep harping on.

The first is a description of Ethan's house:



> I saw then that the unusually forlorn and stunted look of the house was partly due to the loss of what is known in New England as the "L": that long deep-roofed adjunct usually built at right angles to the main house, and connecting it, by way of storerooms and tool-house, with the wood-shed and cow-barn. Whether because of its symbolic sense, the image it presents of a life linked with the soil, and enclosing in itself the chief sources of warmth and nourishment, or whether merely because of the consolatory thought that it enables the dwellers in that harsh climate to get to their morning's work without facing the weather, it is certain that the "L" rather than the house itself seems to be the centre, the actual hearth-stone of the New England farm. Perhaps this connection of ideas, which had often occurred to me in my rambles about Starkfield, caused me to hear a wistful note in Frome's words, and to see in the diminished dwelling the image of his own shrunken body.


What is important is how the "the image it presents of a life linked with the soil, and enclosing in itself the chief sources of warmth and nourishment," a rather old fashion type of life. But then the very next paragragh thrusts modernity right into your face:



> "We're kinder side-tracked here now," he added, "but there was considerable passing before the railroad was carried through to the Flats." He roused the lagging bay with another twitch; then, as if the mere sight of the house had let me too deeply into his confidence for any farther pretence of reserve, he went on slowly: "I've always set down the worst of mother's trouble to that. When she got the rheumatism so bad she couldn't move around she used to sit up there and watch the road by the hour; and one year, when they was six months mending the Bettsbridge pike after the floods, and Harmon Gow had to bring his stage round this way, she picked up so that she used to get down to the gate most days to see him. But after the trains begun running nobody ever come by here to speak of, and mother never could get it through her head what had happened, and it preyed on her right along till she died."


The railroad has come in and changed the whole relationship with the outside world, and significantly Ethan's mother cannot adapt. So too I think is the suggestion that Ethan does not adapt.

Why do i keep bringing old versus new world up? Because Ethan only knows a world of being locked into with his wife Zeena and cannot break himself away from that formula, and that ultimately causes his tragedy.

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## Janine

> Yes, that may be the overarching theme of the enitre novel. Very good point.


I think so. If you were so detached from society for so long a time you might be as he is. He has been shunned now by the proper folks in town, he has been left all alone in his misery. How can he have a social behavior? He has forgotten how to be sociable. Only with the introduction of the narrator (the engineer) has he found any bit of a small connection back to his past life, which was a social experince, no doubt. The engineer sees but a small window into Nathan and I am sure it is the same with Nathan to the engineer's world.




> Actually this does have the feel of a Hardy novel. The climax does seem Hardy-esk.


Because of the tragedy and the mimicing of the coldness in the landscape and nature.



> I guess they mean similar. Doppleganger is a literary term while alter ego is a psycho babble term.


Oh no - that dangerous word - 'psycho babble' - another stereotyped word. You do mean 'phycohological'? right :Biggrin:  
My dictionary says: 
Doppleganger n. supposed _ghostly_ double or counterpart of a living person. 
Yes, it is a literary term. I saw a film once where the person called the Doppleganger - "my other evil self".
alterego 1.a second self. 2.an inseperable friend. 
I am sure there are a lot more technical definitions of 'alterego', as well, in phschology books, etc.




> This is my problem with that critic. Yes, the two characters both have that egineering common detail, but what else? I don't see anything. All we know is that the narrator is fascinated with Ethan. So would almost anyone. All I see is curiosity, not a psychological double. But I could be wrong. Maybe I'm making too much of this.


Virgil, I think you are taking the critic too literally. She is just saying it hints, with the similarites, that the two men have some things incommon and that there is a lesson in all this tragedy that is learned by the observance of the narrator. Here are presented two lives with with promise. Ethan, as a young man, eager for learning. Now the young man engineer, also eager for knowlege. They could someway end up the same way, if circumstance ever dictated it. How often do we see an unfortunate person and say "well that could be me"? In other words Ethan is a sort of *ghost* of what the narrator could become if he was in Ethans type situation. They are not identical, or anything the same. I think the narrator, in seeing and feeling what Ethan is feeling is relating to him emotionally, this being the connection. I feel of all the characters he has most of the empathy for Ethan. The similarities bind them together, so that he imagines and tells the story almost as though from Ethan's point of view. 
I read the forward the critic wrote last night again...about 4 pgs. First off the novel idea was taken from a documented incident and tragedy involving a sleding accident and a tree - it is documented. Some people question the strange ending. 
The critic brings up a good point about the narration. She says 'it is not true' what the narrator says. It can't be since he is making up the story. This is what I said earlier - that no one, but the real characters, can know the real truth of the story.

I had not seen the connection yesterday to "Wuthering Heights". Then it came to me last night - that also was a 'frame' novel, written or told by an outsider. I had forgotten that part of the book. In this way it is very similar, since an more impartial observer is telling the tale. Again what is really 'true' is colored by the eyes and the opinions of the narrator. He becomes the author's standin.

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## Virgil

> Oh no - that dangerous word - 'psycho babble' - another stereotyped word. You do mean 'phycohological'? right


 :Biggrin:  I mean *psychobabble*.  :Wink:  




> Virgil, I think you are taking the critic too literally. She is just saying it hints, with the similarites, that the two men have some things incommon and that there is a lesson in all this tragedy that is learned by the observance of the narrator. Here are presented two lives with with promise. Ethan, as a young man, eager for learning. Now the young man engineer, also eager for knowlege. They could someway end up the same way, if circumstance ever dictated it. How often do we see an unfortunate person and say "well that could be me"? In other words Ethan is a sort of *ghost* of what the narrator could become if he was in Ethans type situation.


OK, I'll buy that.




> I read the forward the critic wrote last night again...about 4 pgs. First off the novel idea was taken from a documented incident and tragedy involving a sleding accident and a tree - it is documented. Some people question the strange ending.


Wow, thanks. I don't know if that makes it a better novel or not, but certainly good to know.




> The critic brings up a good point about the narration. She says 'it is not true' what the narrator says. It can't be since he is making up the story. This is what I said earlier - that no one, but the real characters, can know the real truth of the story.


Yes, I had that thought too, but then doesn't it trivialize the story? What does it wind up saying? For an unreliable narrator to work, say like Ford Maddox Ford's _The Good Soldier_ (a great novel by the way which i've wanted to read again), the narrator has to be integral with the narrative, not just a window to the action. If we found out that the narrator was unreliable, then why should I care? He's making the whole thing up.

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## Janine

> I want to contrast two paragraghs from the Preface that i think highlights this old world versus new world that I keep harping on.
> 
> The first is a description of Ethan's house:
> 
> What is important is how the "the image it presents of a life linked with the soil, and enclosing in itself the chief sources of warmth and nourishment," a rather old fashion type of life. But then the very next paragragh thrusts modernity right into your face:
> 
> The railroad has come in and changed the whole relationship with the outside world, and significantly Ethan's mother cannot adapt. So too I think is the suggestion that Ethan does not adapt.
> 
> Why do i keep bringing old versus new world up? Because Ethan only knows a world of being locked into with his wife Zeena and cannot break himself away from that formula, and that ultimately causes his tragedy.


I just saw this as I was posting mine. It is very good to point out these passages. Last night I read something about the author and the themes she presents in her novels. This exact changing of the times is one of them. She lived when the electric light was invented and she had her house completely wired for it. However, she had a keen interest in progress and the future, the railroad being one very significant symbol of progress,....yet her own life early on was quite sad, she apparently was the third of 3 children born, unexpected and apparently shunned by the cold mother. He father was not much better at nurturing her. Later in life she would actually sicken to cross the threshold of her mother's house. I believe she uses 'threshold' as a sort of symbol, often in ET. Not until she wrote novels did she really write herself into phycological health. In Wharton's world there were two very contrasting worlds - one of the painful past - enertia - and one of going beyond it - action. Back in her day, to work, being a woman, was unheard of. She fought through convention to write her novels, as many woman did. 
Therefore her two worlds were very different. In the novel that first paragraph about the L shape of the house being changed is highly significant. The last line is wonderful and sums up the whole idea of the altered house mimicing the altered lives of it's inhabitants and especially the broken body of Frome, himself. Great to point this out, Virgil. The introduction was a very important part of the book and some may overlook it's significance.
I am going to check out other biographies of Wharton on this site and online.

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## Virgil

Just posted another as you posted, Janine, so you may have missed another.

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## Janine

Hi Mr.Psychobabble, or should I call you Pscho for short?  :FRlol:  




> Yes, I had that thought too, but then doesn't it trivialize the story? What does it wind up saying? For an unreliable narrator to work, say like Ford Maddox Ford's The Good Soldier (a great novel by the way which i've wanted to read again), the narrator has to be integral with the narrative, not just a window to the action. If we found out that the narrator was unreliable, then why should I care? He's making the whole thing up.


Virgil, This is not a true story - it is fiction. All fiction could be said to be contrived. Is "Wuthering Heights" any less grand (trivial) since the outsider is telling the tale? That too is fiction and made up. If the author directly tells a tale, it is also from the eyes of the author and thus colored by his or her opinions, ideas, etc. Of course, it does not trivialize the story. Don't lose perspective - all stories if not fact, are ficticious. Even 'fact' is colored by the teller's own opinions, prejudices, ideas, etc.
That book sounds good - "The Good Soldier" - I somehow heard of it. Wasn't Ford Maddox Ford a friend (at least, at one time) to Lawrence?

No, I think I saw them all and answered them now.

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## Virgil

> Hi Mr.Psychobabble, or should I call you Pscho for short?


 :Tongue:  I guess I deserve it. Well, I am mad, bad, and dangerous to know.  :FRlol:  




> Virgil, This is not a true story - it is fiction. All fiction could be said to be contrived.


Well, of course all fiction is not true, but internal to the work a work of fiction must hold the illusion that what is passing before the reader is true. That is why so many novels start out with the ruse that they found these notes on a beach or some such thing. To admit that what is happening didn't happen and was made up is to break a bond with the reader. Now certain modern works may play with this notion but it usually has a surreal theme, and that is not here. An unreliable narrator needs to be part of the action, and his unreliability is part of the theme of the novel, like the one I mentioned.




> Is "Wuthering Heights" any less grand (trivial) since the outsider is telling the tale?


The reason WH has the frame structure is to ground the novel in reality. Some of the events are supernatural, so the placid down to earth character that frames the narrative serves as an eyewitness. It is to make the supernatural elements more believable, like I mention in the paragraph above.




> That too is fiction and made up. If the author directly tells a tale, it is also from the eyes of the author and thus colored by his or her opinions, ideas, etc. Of course, it does not trivialize the story. Don't lose perspective - all stories if not fact, are ficticious. Even 'fact' is colored by the teller's own opinions, prejudices, ideas, etc.


So why would Wharton have the narrator be unreliable? For what purpose?




> That book sounds good - "The Good Soldier" - I somehow heard of it. Wasn't Ford Maddox Ford a friend (at least, at one time) to Lawrence?


Yes, I believe Ford gave Lawrence his publishing start. He saw great talent in him. The Good Soldier, which has nothing to do with war, is a great novel. Here's what Wiki says:



> The Good Soldier is a 1915 novel by English novelist and editor Ford Madox Ford. It is set just before World War I and chronicles the tragedies of the lives of two seemingly perfect couples. The novel is told using a series of flashbacks in non-chronological order, a literary technique pioneered by Ford. The novel was loosely based on two incidents of adultery and on Ford's messy personal life.
> 
> The Good Soldier is narrated by the character John Dowell, half of one of the couples whose dissolving relationships form the subject of the novel. Dowell tells the stories of those dissolutions as well as the deaths of three characters and the madness of a fourth, in a rambling, non-chronological fashion that leaves gaps for the reader to fill.
> 
> The novel opens with the famous line, This is the saddest story I have ever heard. Dowell explains that for nine years he, his wife Florence and their friends Captain Edward Ashburnham (the good soldier of the books title) and his wife Leonora had an ostensibly normal friendship while Edward and Florence sought treatment for their heart ailments at a spa in Nauheim, Germany.
> 
> As it turns out, nothing in the relationships or in the characters is as it first seems. Florences heart ailment is a fiction she perpetrated on John to force them to stay in Europe so that she could continue her affair with an American thug named Jimmy. Edward and Leonora have a loveless, imbalanced marriage broken by his constant infidelities (both of body and heart) and Leonoras attempts to control Edwards affairs (both financial and romantic). Dowell is a fool and is coming to realize how much of a fool he is, as Florence and Edward had an affair under his nose for nine years without John knowing until Florence was dead.


 You can read more here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good_Soldier. Finely written prose too.

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## Janine

Virgil, be patient. I have a lot of questions about what you wrote in this last post. I can't do it now - not enough time and my response my get complicated. I hve an appointment and will be on later this evening to respond to your post.

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## Scheherazade

> Yes, of course when she goes away for the night and leaves them alone in the house, she tries to set them up so she can catch them at something indescent or irregular.


I am not sure if Zeena's aim was to 'set them up' when she left them alone for the night. I agree with you that she was aware that Ethan and Mattie had feelings for each other but her trip was mainly to get the support of her family and get rid of Mattie by hiring a new maid, in my opinion. Even before she found out about the broken dish, she had made up her mind to send Mattie away and hired the girl. 


> if he could shake off his traditional views (the husband has to provide for the wife etc) and free himself from these obligations he'd be able to leave Zeena. 
> also, if he were less realistic/materialistic he and Mattie could go West anyway. they'd be destitute tramps but at least they'd be together.
> the only way of living he knows is to live as a married man and hard-working farmer.


I am not even sure if Ethan means to elope with Mattie at all. He strikes me more of a Walter Mitty-like character; he, probably owing to his monotonous and frustrating life with Zeena, simply 'daydreams' about having a life with Mattie as an 'outlet'. If Zeena had not actively sought a way to send Mattie away, I wonder if he would ever seriously consider the elopment. He would have been happy living with those two women as they were had Zeena not changed the things. 



> To me Ethan is in a state of iertia.


I do agree with this statement; however, my interpretation of it is somewhat different. Ethan is never willing to do anything to upset the status quo. Come crunch time, both Zeena and Mattie take action; Zeena goes to seek the help of her relatives to find a maid/send Mattie away and fight for her husband and marriage. Mattie is the one who proposes to the deadly slide down the hill. Ethan, on the other hand, simply goes along with these suggestions whether he agrees or really wants them or not. Despite his complaints about Zeena, he never really puts up a fight. Despite his claims of affection towards Mattie, he does not think of what would happen to her; he simply hopes that Mattie would live with them forever, denying her the chance to have a family etc. Whether we like them or agree with their actions is a different story but both women in Ethan life are strong enough to do what they believe is right.


> I kinda want to say "that poor Bastard, he never had a chance", but I just can't seem to find any pity for the guy.


Ditto!

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## Janine

> I am not sure if Zeena's aim was to 'set them up' when she left them alone for the night. I agree with you that she was aware that Ethan and Mattie had feelings for each other but her trip was mainly to get the support of her family and get rid of Mattie by hiring a new maid, in my opinion. Even before she found out about the broken dish, she had made up her mind to send Mattie away and hired the girl.


*Scher*, thanks for reading my post. I agree that it is true that Zeena had her mind made up to send Mattie away. It just was rather odd that she would deliberately leave them alone in the house together. It makes me suspicious that she was conniving to get them caught so her excuse to dismiss Mattie would be even stronger and more justified. I don't imagine she pictured any real impropiety but maybe it worked out just as she planned with something going amiss so she had full justification to condemn the girl. The pickle dish was just that device to show how awful she felt Mattie was - didn't she lash out at her saying she was evil or no good, like the broken dish was evidence of it. Zeena had a mind that did not work as a normal mind would - twisted I would call it. Who knows why a woman would leave a young girl alone with her husband all night - almost like she invited tragedy or a downfall. 




> I am not even sure if Ethan means to elope with Mattie at all. He strikes me more of a Walter Mitty-like character; he, probably owing to his monotonous and frustrating life with Zeena, simply 'daydreams' about having a life with Mattie as an 'outlet'. If Zeena had not actively sought a way to send Mattie away, I wonder if he would ever seriously consider the elopment. He would have been happy living with those two women as they were had Zeena not changed the things.


Good points here, *Scher*, I agree - he daydreams a lot and seems satisfied in the comfort of those daydreams requiring no action at all on his part.




> I do agree with this statement; however, my interpretation of it is somewhat different. Ethan is never willing to do anything to upset the status quo. Come crunch time, both Zeena and Mattie take action; Zeena goes to seek the help of her relatives to find a maid/send Mattie away and fight for her husband and marriage. Mattie is the one who proposes to the deadly slide down the hill. Ethan, on the other hand, simply goes along with these suggestions whether he agrees or really wants them or not. Despite his complaints about Zeena, he never really puts up a fight. Despite his claims of affection towards Mattie, he does not think of what would happen to her; he simply hopes that Mattie would live with them forever, denying her the chance to have a family etc. Whether we like them or agree with their actions is a different story but both women in Ethan life are strong enough to do what they believe is right. Ditto!


*Scher*, basically we agree on all of this or the general idea of it. That is good enough for me. I like the way you have put it in writing and expression. The only part I disagree about is if the woman are actually strong characters. I don't see them such but maybe they are. I see Zeena as lost in her world of imaginary illnesses and weak in the mind and I see Mattie as desperate in her situation and having no other way out. I suppose you are correct in one way - they are both able to act whereas Ethan is as frozen as the landscape around him. But that "action" does not convince me of their strength.

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## Virgil

> I do agree with this statement; however, my interpretation of it is somewhat different. Ethan is never willing to do anything to upset the status quo. Come crunch time, both Zeena and Mattie take action; Zeena goes to seek the help of her relatives to find a maid/send Mattie away and fight for her husband and marriage. Mattie is the one who proposes to the deadly slide down the hill. Ethan, on the other hand, simply goes along with these suggestions whether he agrees or really wants them or not. Despite his complaints about Zeena, he never really puts up a fight. Despite his claims of affection towards Mattie, he does not think of what would happen to her; he simply hopes that Mattie would live with them forever, denying her the chance to have a family etc. Whether we like them or agree with their actions is a different story but both women in Ethan life are strong enough to do what they believe is right.Ditto!


I agree that it was within Ethan to break out of his condition, but you know I feel for him. To leave one's wife was not something to do lightly. He was finacially strapped and he would have condemned his wife to destitution. He was torn between duty and passion. He was trapped. He was living in a code of provincial farm life, an old world construct.

Perhaps this is the place to ask this. This novel was written by a female novelist, and so one needs to ask, does this present feminist themes? Woman writers of this period present female characters also trapped in their social condition as Ethan. I'm thinking of Kate Chopin, Charlotte Bronte, George Eliot, Charlotte Perkins Gilman. But Wharton has almost the inverse, a male trapped by social convention, unexpressible passion, and domestic drudgery. So is Wharton being anti-feminist? If we have sympathy for those female characters of the other women writers, why shouldn't we have sympathy for Ethan?

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## Janine

> I agree that it was within Ethan to break out of his condition, but you know I feel for him. To leave one's wife was not something to do lightly. He was finacially strapped and he would have condemned his wife to destitution. He was torn between duty and passion. He was trapped. He was living in a code of provincial farm life, an old world construct.
> 
> Perhaps this is the place to ask this. This novel was written by a female novelist, and so one needs to ask, does this present feminist themes? Woman writers of this period present female characters also trapped in their social condition as Ethan. I'm thinking of Kate Chopin, Charlotte Bronte, George Eliot, Charlotte Perkins Gilman. But Wharton has almost the inverse, a male trapped by social convention, unexpressible passion, and domestic drudgery. So is Wharton being anti-feminist? If we have sympathy for those female characters of the other women writers, why shouldn't we have sympathy for Ethan?


Virgil, for some reason I woke up from my drowsy feeling and decided to answer this post of yours. 

First paragraph - I also feel much empathy for Ethan. I feel as you do that he was trapped, especially in the time he lived. I could not have expressed it so well, but it is exactly how I feel about his situation and why he did not act. You said it so well.

Second paragraph - I think that most of Wharton's work would be considered sympathetic to the female. If you look at the novel "Age of Innocense" you certainly feel badly for the female involved in the complicated plots. In this case, society has trapped the female in conventions and situations that lead to her downfall or unhappiness. In "The House of Mirth" it is the somewhat the same. But Edith Wharton herself said that "Ethan Frome" was a departure from those novels. Perhaps in this EF she relates, not so much to the female characters, as to the male protaganist, Ethan. So I do not know if it is a true feminist issue here. Hope others give their opinions on this idea.

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## Schokokeks

> Do you see Zeena as strong?


No. As with Ethan, I was talking about appearances. That, after all, is one of the reasons why, instead of studying and observing a hypochondriac in a clinic, I am reading a fictional work, where somebody _presents_ her in a certain way and encourages me to set her in relation to the other characters. In my eyes, the story would be far less interesting if Ethan was presented as bossy as his wife, or Zeena presented as inert as Ethan.


Very interesting how opinions in the poll above are distributed almost equally between the last three choices. Not a black-and-white piece of literature at all  :Smile: .

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## Virgil

> Second paragraph - I think that most of Wharton's work would be considered sympathetic to the female. If you look at the novel "Age of Innocense" you certainly feel badly for the female involved in the complicated plots. In this case, society has trapped the female in conventions and situations that lead to her downfall or unhappiness. In "The House of Mirth" it is the somewhat the same. But Edith Wharton herself said that "Ethan Frome" was a departure from those novels. Perhaps in this EF she relates, not so much to the female characters, as to the male protaganist, Ethan. So I do not know if it is a true feminist issue here. Hope others give their opinions on this idea.


This is my first Wharton reading. So she is more feminist in her other works? That is interesting. Here I find so much understanding for the male social condition, which contrary to what femnist would love to have you think was no perfect existence. Hard labor, financial and family repsonsibility, and much isolation was the more common existence for most men. I'll answer my own question; while I don't see this as anti-feminist in the sesne that Wharton is arguing against women's problems, but I do see it as undermining the notion that men had all the power.

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## SleepyWitch

> I am not sure if Zeena's aim was to 'set them up' when she left them alone for the night. I agree with you that she was aware that Ethan and Mattie had feelings for each other but her trip was mainly to get the support of her family and get rid of Mattie by hiring a new maid, in my opinion. Even before she found out about the broken dish, she had made up her mind to send Mattie away and hired the girl. I am not even sure if Ethan means to elope with Mattie at all. He strikes me more of a Walter Mitty-like character; he, probably owing to his monotonous and frustrating life with Zeena, simply 'daydreams' about having a life with Mattie as an 'outlet'. If Zeena had not actively sought a way to send Mattie away, I wonder if he would ever seriously consider the elopment. He would have been happy living with those two women as they were had Zeena not changed the things.


yep you're right. i think he only becomes aware of how much he likes Mattie when Zeena is about to send her away. 
i think that's a very realistic portrayal. lots of men don't seem to be aware of their own feelings till it's too late in one way or another




> This is my first Wharton reading. So she is more feminist in her other works? That is interesting. Here I find so much understanding for the male social condition, which contrary to what femnist would love to have you think was no perfect existence. Hard labor, financial and family repsonsibility, and much isolation was the more common existence for most men. I'll answer my own question; while I don't see this as anti-feminist in the sesne that Wharton is arguing against women's problems, but I do see it as undermining the notion that men had all the power.


hehe, ranting about feminism again, are we?
i think the branch of feminism i prefer would perfectly agree with you on most of these points

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## Virgil

> i think that's a very realistic portrayal. lots of men don't seem to be aware of their own feelings till it's too late in one way or another


 :Confused:  Are you saying that it only happens to men? Women don't mistaken their feelings? Boy do I have life experiences to prove that wrong.  :Wink:

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## SleepyWitch

hehe, you're probably right. i'm a mean prejudiced feminist witch  :Smile:

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## Janine

> No. As with Ethan, I was talking about appearances. That, after all, is one of the reasons why, instead of studying and observing a hypochondriac in a clinic, I am reading a fictional work, where somebody _presents_ her in a certain way and encourages me to set her in relation to the other characters. In my eyes, the story would be far less interesting if Ethan was presented as bossy as his wife, or Zeena presented as inert as Ethan.


ok, *Schokokeks*, I agree with this. I see your point. So emotionally she might not be strong but she projects her will strongly. Yes, now I quite agree and also that the story would be totally dull if Ethan were presented the same as Zeena - bossy. No, the three characters have distinctive differences in personalities, even though, ironically, at the end it is the two women are in alignment with each other and Ethan is now totally outside their realm. Truly isolated is what he becomes. 




> Very interesting how opinions in the poll above are distributed almost equally between the last three choices. Not a black-and-white piece of literature at all .


I agree - absolutely not a black-and-white piece of literature. Most "good" literature is not b/w. One has to contemplate it and think on it and debate it. This is precisely why EF is such a great novel and one that has lasted the test of time. 

*Virgil*, feminism again?  :FRlol:  I agree somewhat with Sleepwitch. 
I don't know, does it have that much bearing on the story, or analysis? You can read about Wharton's views, etc. in the biography on this site or on Wikipedia. Then let us know what if it mentions this idea. Don't quote me on the other novels. Basically I have not read them - only know the plots from film adaptations. Women and men are socially abused in stories all the time. I can give many an example of men being just as abused or neglected/ shunned.

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## Virgil

Well, I'm not going to push it, but this story does seem to me to be the inverse of a typical 19th century feminist work.

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## Janine

> Well, I'm not going to push it, but this story does seem to me to be the inverse of a typical 19th century feminist work.


*Virgil* - ok, that is good; now what do you have to back that statement up with? Can you explain better or site specifically why you feel that way? What, in your opinion, is a typical 19th century feminist work?

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## Virgil

> IPerhaps this is the place to ask this. This novel was written by a female novelist, and so one needs to ask, does this present feminist themes? Woman writers of this period present female characters also trapped in their social condition as Ethan. I'm thinking of Kate Chopin, Charlotte Bronte, George Eliot, Charlotte Perkins Gilman. But Wharton has almost the inverse, a male trapped by social convention, unexpressible passion, and domestic drudgery. So is Wharton being anti-feminist? If we have sympathy for those female characters of the other women writers, why shouldn't we have sympathy for Ethan?





> *Virgil* - ok, that is good; now what do you have to back that statement up with? Can you explain better or site specifically why you feel that way? What, in your opinion, is a typical 19th century feminist work?


Janine, I thought I was fairly clear in my original post on this. What I mean is that it is typically a female character who is trapped by her social circumstances and is unable to follow her heart. Or if she does follow her heart, it's at a great expense in reputation or stature. Here it is Ethan, a male character, who is put into this conundrum.

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## Scheherazade

> Who knows why a woman would leave a young girl alone with her husband all night - almost like she invited tragedy or a downfall.


I think Zeena knew what she wanted and went for it; she wanted Mattie out of their house and life. In the grand scheme of things, Mattie and Ethan being alone one night does not matter much really. 


> I agree that it was within Ethan to break out of his condition, but you know I feel for him. To leave one's wife was not something to do lightly. He was finacially strapped and he would have condemned his wife to destitution. He was torn between duty and passion. He was trapped. He was living in a code of provincial farm life, an old world construct.


This is all true; however, in my opinion, what makes Ethan a hard-to-sympathise-with-character is not only the fact that he is not leaving his wife for Mattie. The fact that it does not occur to him is very off-putting. It seems like Ethan does not realise (or does not want to?) the consequences of the feelings he entertains towards Mattie. What is more, he, very slyly, plans how he can stay alone with Mattie over night and lies to Zeena not to give her a lift. If I remember correctly, during the night they were alone at home, it was Mattie who actually stops things from 'getting out of hand'; Ethan, in my opinion, would have carried on without a consideration for Zeena or Mattie. 

I was thinking that Ethan's inability to commit to anything is even apparent in his so-called suicide attempt with Mattie. He seems to change his mind in the last minute causing a life time of suffering for them all (I don't wish anyone death but he should have either gone ahead with the plan or said 'no' from the start, in my opinion).


> No, the three characters have distinctive differences in personalities, even though, ironically, at the end it is the two women are in alignment with each other and Ethan is now totally outside their realm. Truly isolated is what he becomes.


Ethan is an isolated character, isn't he? He doesn't seem to have friends and does not mix with the town folks either.


> lots of men don't seem to be aware of their own feelings till it's too late in one way or another


Amen to that, _sista_!  :Wink:

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## Janine

> Janine, I thought I was fairly clear in my original post on this. What I mean is that it is typically a female character who is trapped by her social circumstances and is unable to follow her heart. Or if she does follow her heart, it's at a great expense in reputation or stature. Here it is Ethan, a male character, who is put into this conundrum.


Virgil, ok, I think I understand. Sorry, I guess I am just tired. Yes, true the man cannot follow his heart this time in this story. In Hardy some of his male characters were the same such as Giles in "Woodlanders". Actually he and Grace were hemmed in to the system. Giles, like Ethan, was resigned to his low station and shunned position in life. Also, it might be that I don't totally understand all the ramifications of feminist literature.

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## Nightshade

haha got the book yesterday will start it in tea break at work  :Biggrin:

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## papayahed

Ok, I finally read through all the posts.




> But Wharton has almost the inverse, a male trapped by social convention, unexpressible passion, and domestic drudgery. So is Wharton being anti-feminist? If we have sympathy for those female characters of the other women writers, why shouldn't we have sympathy for Ethan?


I don't see this as anti-feminist at all, even though the 2 main women weren't the best examples - one a hypochondriac wrapped up in her own problems and the other a young lady without any any other options. These two characters were written like real people, Wharton could have easily made them into characatures.

I don't have sympathy for Ethan. He was not stuck by the constraints of society in the least. As a man in that time period he could have gone anywhere and gotten a job doing anything with out any questions asked. Women did not have that same luxury, they were expected to be wives.


*As for the Narrator - Ethan connection*, I think Ethan sees what he could have been. Ethan could have been the guy living at the hotel, reading those books, catching the train to work.


*I idea of isolation throughout the book.* If I remember correctly I don't think Ethan was ever really part of the town. He was always so stand off-ish. For example, when he picked up Mattie from that dance, why look through the window? Why not go in? Everybody knew he picked her up after each dance. - Ohh, yet again an instance of Ethan's inertia. Perhaps that's the life Ethan wants - dances, parties, being part of the town, (that's the life the narrator has) but he can't bring himself to go in.

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## bouquin

> Yes, her use of "double" is the same. 
> 
> http://www.studyguide.org/lit_terms.htm
> We just don't get enough of the narrator to see if there is a part of him that is like Ethan. At least I don't think so.
> 
> 
> Well, the very first sentence of the novel is, "I had the story, bit by bit, from various people, and, as generally happens in such cases, each time it was a different story." Do you think Wharton is saying that she does not get part of the story from Ethan? If not, how could she know his internal feelings?



My interpretation is that Wharton's intention was to make her readers understand that the _narrator_ does not gather the whole story from Ethan himself - especially in the beginning - but rather he gleans unsatisfactory bits and pieces of it from the various inhabitants of the town. In the frame chapter the narrator says of one of his contacts, "Though Harmon Gow developed the tale as far as his mental and moral reach permitted there were perceptible gaps between his facts, and I had the sense that the deeper meaning of the story was in the gaps." 
And as for his landlady, Mrs Hale: "...but on the subject of Ethan Frome I found her unexpectedly reticent ... I merely felt in her an insurmountable reluctance to speak of him or his affairs..."

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## Virgil

I agree with you bouquin. The only problem I have is that the narrator gets well into Ethan's emotions and only Ethan could have told him. It does strike one as contrived.

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## papayahed

> I agree with you bouquin. The only problem I have is that the narrator gets well into Ethan's emotions and only Ethan could have told him. It does strike one as contrived.


What I find intriguing and I keep wondering about is what happened that night when the narrator stayed at the Frome farm????? Did Ethan tell him the story? I can't really believe that is the case, Ethan seems too Tacturn. Did he get tidbits from Zeena and/or Mattie? That to means seems more likely. I get the feeling that both Zeena and Mattie would take this oppotunity to complain/talk to a new set of ears.

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## Virgil

> What I find intriguing and I keep wondering about is what happened that night when the narrator stayed at the Frome farm????? Did Ethan tell him the story? I can't really believe that is the case, Ethan seems too Tacturn. Did he get tidbits from Zeena and/or Mattie? That to means seems more likely. I get the feeling that both Zeena and Mattie would take this oppotunity to complain/talk to a new set of ears.


I've had those exact same thoughts. I assume that Ethan took a liking to the engineer and spilled his guts. But he does seem tactiturn.

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## Nightshade

Well Ive read up to chapter 5 solidly and then skim read the rest ( Ill probably read another couple of chapters properly tonight)
I thought wuthering heights at the beginig, and I did also think the narrator might be a woman. . Up till chapter 5 I do kind of like Zeneeba but I know when I read a head Im about to change my min then change back again. 

Now as to the Hypocondriac an illness, my grandmother was always always ill and because she didnt have anything to do she just had time to think about how ill she was and it got worse. Then my uncle opened a buisness set her as manger and she was great for years...shes now very sick again and thats life.
So I think zeeba was okay whenever 'the call' came to her because she had to think of somthing else.

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## Virgil

On the Ethan Frome favorites thread, someone called Mattie brainless, and Sleepywitch said we don't really know how intelligent she is. I've been wanting to put this out there but was waiting for the right time. Perhaps now is the right time.

A motif that seems to run through the book is a distinction on whether the characters are "smart." In the Introduction (I keep calling it a Preface because that's what my edition called it, but I see Introduction elsewhere) we have several instances:



> Harmon drew a slab of tobacco from his pocket, cut off a wedge and pressed it into the leather pouch of his cheek. "Guess he's been in Starkfield too many winters. Most of the smart ones get away."





> ...When I had been there a little longer, and had seen this phase of crystal clearness followed by long stretches of sunless cold; when the storms of February had pitched their white tents about the. devoted village and the wild cavalry of March winds had charged down to their support; I began to understand why Starkfield emerged from its six months' siege like a starved garrison capitulating without quarter. Twenty years earlier the means of resistance must have been far fewer, and the enemy in command of almost all the lines of access between the beleaguered villages; and, considering these things, I felt the sinister force of Harmon's phrase: "Most of the smart ones get away." But if that were the case, how could any combination of obstacles have hindered the flight of a man like Ethan Frome?





> I hoped that this incident might set up some more direct communication between us. Frome was so simple and straightforward that I was sure his curiosity about the book was based on a genuine interest in its subject. Such tastes and acquirements in a man of his condition made the contrast more poignant between his outer situation and his inner needs, and I hoped that the chance of giving expression to the latter might at least unseal his lips...


In chapter 1, Ethan shows off his learning to Mattie:



> "That's Orion down yonder; the big fellow to the right is Aldebaran, and the bunch of little ones- like bees swarming- they're the Pleiades..." or whom he could hold entranced before a ledge of granite thrusting up through the fern while he unrolled the huge panorama of the ice age, and the long dim stretches of succeeding time. The fact that admiration for his learning mingled with Mattie's wonder at what he taught was not the least part of his pleasure. And there were other sensations, less definable but more exquisite, which drew them together with a shock of silent joy: the cold red of sunset behind winter hills, the flight of cloud-flocks over slopes of golden stubble, or the intensely blue shadows of hemlocks on sunlit snow. When she said to him once: "It looks just as if it was painted!" it seemed to Ethan that the art of definition could go no farther, and that words had at last been found to utter his secret soul....


Then also in chapter 2 Mattie describes herself as not smart:



> Their arms had slipped apart and they stood motionless, each seeking to distinguish the other's face. 
> "I know I ain't anything like as smart as I ought to be," she went on, while he vainly struggled for expression. "There's lots of things a hired girl could do that come awkward to me still- and I haven't got much strength in my arms. But if she'd only tell me I'd try. You know she hardly ever says anything, and sometimes I can see she ain't suited, and yet I don't know why."


And in chapter 4, Zeena is labeled as "smart":



> When they married it was agreed that, as soon as he could straighten out the difficulties resulting from Mrs. Frome's long illness, they would sell the farm and saw-mill and try their luck in a large town. Ethan's love of nature did not take the form of a taste for agriculture. He had always wanted to be an engineer, and to live in towns, where there were lectures and big libraries and "fellows doing things." A slight engineering job in Florida, put in his way during his period of study at Worcester, increased his faith in his ability as well as his eagerness to see the world; and he felt sure that, with a "smart" wife like Zeena, it would not be long before he had made himself a place in it.


And I could swear, although I didn't jot it down, that Denis Eady is characterized as smart. And I'm sure it comes up in places throughout the novel that i didn't pick up on.

Certainly this is a conscious motif that Wharton is employing here. However, I can't quite pin down what she is suggesting. I suspect it has to do with what I called earlier in this thread the modern world versus the old world. But what are people's thoughts on this?

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## Janine

*Virgil*, Consider it might be in the way the word "smart" is used. It might indicate, in Zeena's, case more of a smart move than her being smart in a full sense of the word. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Zeena lacks being smart - to the contrary - although she has the illness of "hypocondria" -that would not render her dumb or stupid. Many mentally ill people, in fact, are highly intelligent. I just wonder, if when Wharton uses the word "smart", she is not using it in the sense that that is what others perceive them as being. Such as the town would see and accept Zeena as being a smart woman and therefore it a smart move to marry her for Ethan in the town's eyes, whereas Matty, being poor and uneducated would be considered dumb and stupid. She seemed to have other talents, liking to dance and sing, but this seems insignificant to everyone. Perhaps she has her own talents we don't know of in this limited story. This does not make a person dumb because they are not good at one thing, but may make up for it in another aspect or aspects. Agreed she was inefficient at housework and mundane farm duties, but if I was put in her position I would probably be the same way, since my talents lie elseware. Now I don't consider myself dumb because of that fact. Also, being uneducated is not the same as being dim witted or dumb. I see Matty as uneducated and poor and Zeena may have been educated at one time, who knows? Apparently she had more opportunities than Matty did in the past. Matty seemed to be poorer and in a more dire situation than Matty ever was.
*
Nightshade* ,your comments were very good concerning your own grandmother comparison. I also knew a woman like this and she could rally to care for others, when the need presented itself. In this way she did improve for a time, but usually it was not a permanent improvement or cure. These type people are very sad indeed.

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## Virgil

To be honest Janine, I don't know what to make of the word, "smart." it does run through the novel, so that one can see that it is a loaded word. By loaded I mean the author by her use has packed more meaning into the word than normal. 

And Nightshade's comment about her grandmother were very insightful. I meant to highlight that, but got lost in my posting and then forgot.

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## bouquin

> On the Ethan Frome favorites thread, someone called Mattie brainless, and Sleepywitch said we don't really know how intelligent she is. I've been wanting to put this out there but was waiting for the right time. Perhaps now is the right time.
> 
> A motif that seems to run through the book is a distinction on whether the characters are "smart." In the Introduction (I keep calling it a Preface because that's what my edition called it, but I see Introduction elsewhere) we have several instances:




Here's a description of Mattie in chapter 1:
Mattie had no natural turn for housekeeping, and her training had done nothing to remedy the defect. She was quick to learn, but forgetful and dreamy, and not disposed to take the matter seriously. Ethan had an idea that if she were to marry a man she was fond of the dormant instinct would wake, and her pies and biscuits become the pride of the country; but domesticity in the abstract did not interest her.

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## Nightshade

I did point out that my grandmother really is very ill, didnt I?
ah well anyway onwards upwards as they say....oh yes read some more on the train and I just thought you know when the pickle dish is broken and Zeena starts crying and says mattie took/broke the most important thing to her...it suddenly occured to me shes talking about her marriage to Ethan isnt she no nessearily the dish.
A case of the straw that broke the camels back??

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## Janine

> Here's a description of Mattie in chapter 1:
> Mattie had no natural turn for housekeeping, and her training had done nothing to remedy the defect. She was quick to learn, but forgetful and dreamy, and not disposed to take the matter seriously. Ethan had an idea that if she were to marry a man she was fond of the dormant instinct would wake, and her pies and biscuits become the pride of the country; but domesticity in the abstract did not interest her.


"She was quick to learn, but forgetful and dreamy, and not disposed to take the matter seriously." Matty sounds like me :FRlol: 




> I did point out that my grandmother really is very ill, didnt I?
> ah well anyway onwards upwards as they say....oh yes read some more on the train and I just thought you know when the pickle dish is broken and Zeena starts crying and says mattie took/broke the most important thing to her...it suddenly occured to me shes talking about her marriage to Ethan isnt she no nessearily the dish.
> A case of the straw that broke the camels back??


*Nightshade*, That is an interesting observation/correlation. I think it does indicate more than just a broken dish - definitely it is quite important and broken and can't be repaired or really replaced. It did symbolise perhaps the ideal that Zeena kept of her marriage (really an illusion) and so she never used the dish - kept it safely on the top shelf of the china cabinet. This would symbolise her attitude to the marriage - keep it hidden away and from harm/safe/ yet inert. Yes, it certainly was like a 'broken marriage' to her eyes and the 'beginning of the end' perhaps or at least the 'major threat'. She could blame it all on Matty that way. It was the straw that broke the camel's back perhaps, but the wheels were in motion before this definitive revelation. Still it defined it to the reader. Yes, very good, *Nightshade*. I had not thought of it in quite that way.

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## Nightshade

Oh I also wanted to say that I dont think that the original narrator is the only voice-- that is telling the main story because s/he points out that they dont know what happened and anyway who told them the story. No I think the middle bit is the true story that s/he only hears differant versions of. note how the guy in the beging says somthing that makes it seem like zeena is to blame for everything and Mrs hale thinks zeena takes care of everyone and in a way is the bees knees.

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## papayahed

I think the whole smart is just to hammer home the personalities of the three main characters. Zeena - very shrewd and aware, Mattie - young wide-eyed young girl, and Ethan - wasted/missed oppotunity.

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## Janine

> I think the whole smart is just to hammer home the personalities of the three main characters. Zeena - very shrewd and aware, Mattie - young wide-eyed young girl, and Ethan - wasted/missed oppotunity.


*Papaya*,That's a good thought - it sort of sums it up. Also, smart might be the way in which Wharton summaries the attitudes of society. A smart marriage - I have heard that said before - it does not necessarily mean the marriage partners are smart but that the marriage is practical and a good idea for each. I wondered if Wharton did not mean this very thing when she said a smart wife in Ethan's case, as Virgil has quoted that statement here:

"A slight engineering job in Florida, put in his way during his period of study at Worcester, increased his faith in his ability as well as his eagerness to see the world; and he felt sure that, with a "smart" wife like Zeena, it would not be long before he had made himself a place in it."

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## Virgil

> I think the whole smart is just to hammer home the personalities of the three main characters. Zeena - very shrewd and aware, Mattie - young wide-eyed young girl, and Ethan - wasted/missed oppotunity.


Yes but why characterize people in contradistinction to intelligence. It has the makings of suggestion, and the way it's introduced in the Introduction is definetely to make a point:




> Harmon drew a slab of tobacco from his pocket, cut off a wedge and pressed it into the leather pouch of his cheek. "Guess he's been in Starkfield too many winters. Most of the smart ones get away."


Given that Ethan does not get away, the word carries extra meaning.

Here's the definition of smart from M-W:



> Main Entry: 1smart 
> Pronunciation: 'smärt
> Function: adjective
> Etymology: Middle English smert causing pain, from Old English smeart; akin to Old English smeortan
> 1 : making one smart : causing a sharp stinging
> 2 : marked by often sharp forceful activity or vigorous strength <a smart pull of the starter cord>
> 3 : BRISK, SPIRITED <a smart pace>
> 4 a : mentally alert : BRIGHT b : KNOWLEDGEABLE c : SHREWD <a smart investment>
> 5 a : WITTY, CLEVER <a smart sitcom> b : PERT, SAUCY <don't get smart with me>
> ...


Amazing how even the etomological definition has implication to the novel's story:
smart ~ causing a sharp stinging; the climax?

But even still, the intelligence connotation still suggests to me the difference between old world mentality and new world mentality.

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## byquist

> *byquist*, well in the film version, when Hamlet recites this line, it always gets to me. I think - wow that is me! Some may think "what - a nut?" Truly though I am happy in my own little/huge world of "infinite space" - everything is in the perception of life.
> You bring up a very interesting point and analogy to "Heart of Darkness". Unfortunately I have not read the book, but now it interests me, and lately I have been hearing a lot about it. If Conrad is seeing the glow on the outside of the nut, then I would think it a 'departure'. Well, not unusual that he might have thought about the Shakespeare words, since all authors draw from knowledge of other authors, even subconsciously. Perhaps he wished to expand on the nutshell image and meaning or deviate and express his own perception. I personally see the shell as a 'confinement' that really is an 'expansion' - of mind and spirit. Some may say readers are in a world of their own and retreat from the real world, or dreamers, or visionaries. But perhaps their world is more 'real' than the 'physical' world which most would consider "real". This would be my understanding on the Shakespeare quote. What do you think? Certainly it is an interesting connection to the Conrad story. I will have to venture further into it.


Makes total sense what you say. Reminds me of that Simon & Garfunkel song about staying in his room and letting his poetry protect him.

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## Janine

> Yes but why characterize people in contradistinction to intelligence. It has the makings of suggestion, and the way it's introduced in the Introduction is definetely to make a point:
> 
> 
> Given that Ethan does not get away, the word carries extra meaning.
> 
> Here's the definition of smart from M-W:
> 
> 
> Amazing how even the etomological definition has implication to the novel's story:
> ...


Virgil, Interesting definition "sharp stinging"....well Wharton was a satirist, wasn't she in most of her works? So perhaps she is using the word "smart" satirically by using it often and giving it various connotations and deeper meanings or references.  
I especially like definition #4.c the word "Shrewd"- that would describe the manor how Zeena appears smart. 

4 a : mentally alert : BRIGHT b : KNOWLEDGEABLE c : SHREWD <a smart investment>

"Given that Ethan does not get away, the word carries extra meaning". 
I do agree with this - the contrast in the statement makes this more evident - and the fact that Ethan got left behind and did not get away when he could have.




> Makes total sense what you say. Reminds me of that Simon & Garfunkel song about staying in his room and letting his poetry protect him.


byquist, Oh, I had to think for a minute what you were referring to - my signature.
Yes, thank you very much. It does remind me of that song, also. It is a great song! S&G are favorites. :Thumbs Up:

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## papayahed

> Harmon drew a slab of tobacco from his pocket, cut off a wedge and pressed it into the leather pouch of his cheek. "Guess he's been in Starkfield too many winters. Most of the smart ones get away."





> Given that Ethan does not get away, the word carries extra meaning.



ummm I don't think so. Well maybe, I think he Harmon isn't necessarily talking about the town or the area. I think he's talking about the way of life, as you mentioned before the old world - particularly Ethan and his farm. (Sidenote: What kind of farm did Ethan have? ) I think that sets Ethan appart for everyone as well, which goes back to his social status. By the time the narrator is in town Ethan is like a walking museum. Ethan wasn't "smart" enough / not brave enough to ditch the farm when he had the chance.

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## Janine

There is a definite contrast of old world and new in this story. Wharton herself has said so in commentaries. It is a recurrent theme in many of her works. It is very prominent in EF. 
I can see that it was not "smart" for Ethan to stay. but he was trapped by the guilt and duty to Zeena for taking care of his aging, dying parents. How could he leave? He just was too nice a guy to abandon someone that way. I don't know if being nice is being weak, or not brave. I feel someone accepting his duty of husband, like that, in those early days, was not so uncommon and not a sign of being a weak person by doing so. When exactly did he have the chance to leave - before marrying Zeena? You could say that, but the thing is circumstances dictated him staying home and jointly caring for the sick parents. He got used to this being a normal way of life and resigned himself to the duties of the farm and parents care. He got trapped over time not overnight! The "iert" process took time and Zeena was subtle and conniving to get him to marry her, born out of duty and guilt. She really played on his emotions and good nature and he caved in and married her. I don't think he ever loved her one tiny bit. It was all duty and payback. Nor do I think Zeena actually loved Ethan. One could say from the start it was a loveless marriage.

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## papayahed

> The "iert" process took time and Zeena was subtle and conniving to get him to marry her, born out of duty and guilt. She really played on his emotions and good nature and he caved in and married her.



Where does it say that in the book?

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## Virgil

> (Sidenote: What kind of farm did Ethan have? )


I don't think it ever says. And is it my impression, but is everyone else not a farmer? I get the impression Ethan is the only farmer in the whole county.  :FRlol:

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## Scheherazade

I think Ethan is some kind of a lumberjack?

*Janine>* I don't we are given enough information (if at all) in the story to conclude that Zeena actually actively planned (connivingly or otherwise) to make Ethan marry her.

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## papayahed

> I don't think it ever says. And is it my impression, but is everyone else not a farmer? I get the impression Ethan is the only farmer in the whole county.


I'm thinking he's the only poor farmer!

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## Janine

As Scher pointed out Ethan is apparently a lumberjack who owns a farm. I don't think farming is his first vocation, dealing in lumber seems to bring in his living.

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## Virgil

> As Scher pointed out Ethan is apparently a lumberjack who owns a farm. I don't think farming is his first vocation, dealing in lumber seems to bring in his living.


Yeah, he was delivering logs in one scene. But theyt keep referring to a farm, and he has some run down mill that might not be functional. Not entirely clear to me.

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## Janine

Well, is it really that important to know specifically about what Ethan does for a living? I get the sense he runs his delapidated farm to sustain himself, Matty and the wife, and then his basic income was cutting trees and selling them - or it could be visa-versa, but it seems from the story he makes the money from the trees. We seem to be getting caught up in this discussion on some trivial details. I don't think that Wharton meant to be specific about these things. She merely gives us clues or a sense of his situation and his work. The important thing here about the farm, mill, house is it's stagnant qualities and dilapidated condition, like Ethan himself. Nothing has progressed since the accident occurred. It was as if time stood still from that moment on. 
Perhaps we can go onto other aspects of the story, like how the narrator is affected by the story. He undergos a sort of transformation from the beginning of the book to the end.

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## Nightshade

Does s/he???

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## Janine

Night - Does s/he??? ...what?

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## Nightshade

narrortor under go transformation

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## Janine

Well his is maybe not a true transformation, just that the story affects him in various ways, by the end. I was really trying to come up with another aspect of the story to discuss. Any ideas, *Night*?

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## Virgil

I don't see a transformation either, but I think he (narrator is a he to me  :Wink:   :Tongue:  ) is enlightened in some sense. I think he understands the human heart better.

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## Janine

> I don't see a transformation either, but I think he (narrator is a he to me   ) is enlightened in some sense. I think he understands the human heart better.


Thanks, *Virgil*, this is what I was getting at; the idea of a better understanding, on his part, of the "human heart" - good way of putting it! Also a greater compassion for his fellow man.

I see the narrator as a he, also.

Thought this thread in a bit of a lull. I looked somethings about the book up online and found this study site helpful. May give us some idea on things to discuss. Here's the link:

http://www.gradesaver.com/classicnotes/titles/frome/

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## Virgil

I've been torn as to whether the climatic sled crash scene really fit with the novel. That site you posted Janine had an interesting analysis of it:




> The sled ride is a symbol for Wharton's conception of free will and fate, a conception shaped by Naturalism. Although Ethan has some power in steering the sleigh, the track carries them down on the final run. Ethan steers the sled to some extent, but gravity and the shape of the hill drive them down into the elm. Man's freedom exists within a very narrow range of options. In the opening, we already learned that Ethan had a terrible accident, and so the event seems all the more fixed. Wharton has been foreshadowing the accident all along. We also know that Ethan is still going to be alive at the time when the narrator arrives in Starkfield, and so we immediately know that their suicide attempt is going to be unsuccessful. The suicide attempt is the final and most terrible failed plan of Ethan Frome. It caps off a long string of aborted plans and frustrated wishes, and this time the consequences are tragic.


If Wharton really meant it as symbolic of fate, well I have a problem. Not with the symbol but whether than Ethan had a choice. Yes, he was contrained. But he could have left. He didn't have to commit suicide. He could have put Mattie on the train. He could have brought her back and told Zeena to shut up. He had options. I feel that way and just about everyone discussing here has said similar. I had a problem with the ending from the moment I read it. How is it fatalistic to choose to get into a sled and crash oneself into a tree? It doesn't seem to follow, and yet like that analysis I do believe that's what Wharton intended. And so for me, I have to say, while I thought this was an excellent novel, it doesn't get the ending right.

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## Janine

> I've been torn as to whether the climatic sled crash scene really fit with the novel. That site you posted Janine had an interesting analysis of it:
> 
> 
> 
> If Wharton really meant it as symbolic of fate, well I have a problem. Not with the symbol but whether than Ethan had a choice. Yes, he was contrained. But he could have left. He didn't have to commit suicide. He could have put Mattie on the train. He could have brought her back and told Zeena to shut up. He had options. I feel that way and just about everyone discussing here has said similar. I had a problem with the ending from the moment I read it. How is it fatalistic to choose to get into a sled and crash oneself into a tree? It doesn't seem to follow, and yet like that analysis I do believe that's what Wharton intended. And so for me, I have to say, while I thought this was an excellent novel, it doesn't get the ending right.


Wow, glad you read some of the study site. I want to read all of it eventually to better understand the book and Wharton's motives for writing it. You point out some good things here. First off, I like the explanation from the site about the ending. It does seem it was just another botched attempt to escape his unbearable situation --
"The suicide attempt is the final and most terrible failed plan of Ethan Frome. It caps off a long string of aborted plans and frustrated wishes, and this time the consequences are tragic. " interesting.....

I have to admit that when I was in highschool and read this book at the end I said to myself - what? and thought it really pretty lame, at the point of the failed suicide. I still have some bit of trouble myself with the end. But I am trying harder now to understand just why Wharton wrote it this way. Now on several new readings, I see the point and the irony at the very end revealing to me the attempted suicide as making more sense, in context with that final ending. Didn't Ethan bring on all of the misery of his life by his bad choice on the hill that fateful day and is this not the worst of the tragedy? In other words one more act of bad judgement in the suicide attempt condemned him and Matty to a life of hell. So maybe this is what Wharton wanted to say - that snap judgement that is poorly thought out and impulsive can lead to tragedy. Did not Hamlet make rash judgement in slaying Polonius by accident hearing someone behind the aras? This one act of misjudgement progressed the rest of the tragedy, causing all hell to break loose and fate to go in bizzare directions. So for Wharton to end with a tragic and ironic ending - Zeena caring now for Matty and Ethan is appropriate and really the doing of the choice that Nathan made in taking Matty down the hill and into the tree. I think in this way the tree is a symbol of a very bad option. Do now people make bad options everyday of their lives? 
So maybe Wharton was trying to illustrate a point and a morale about thinking more clearly about what choices we have and which would have been the lesser of the two evils. Obviously had Ethan fleed with Matty and attempted a new life they would have been better off than they were in the outcome of this story, at least there would have been hope. So to try, is the better option, even if it requires change, hardships and sacrifice. Instead they copped out and went for death, but death was not to accept them. Therefore the greatest irony of all lay at the close of the book - the last scene, and there is the real impact of the story. It could have ended with the suicides as being successful. Then what? Just another tragic tale, but Wharton did something quite unique with her ending, I believe. Had they died, it would have been perhaps glorious in romantic tradedy - they escaped to death together, perhaps to a heavenly place, but instead by living on crippled and broken they were in a far worse place - a living hell. How much more tragic could a story be? I think this is what greatly distrubs most people about the book - let's face it - the ending is quite unsettling. There is no hope for Ethan, Matty or Zeena...no one wins in the end...all are pathetic.

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## Virgil

OK Janine, you do a good job of putting the best perspective to the ending. But I still have qualms. It doesn't seem to be a logical conclusion of the action leading to it. Now on second reading, I noticed Wharton forshadowing that climax in almost every chapter. But still falls short for me. Didn't I see somewhere that this was a real life event (the sled ride into the tree by two lovers) that Wharton came upon? It seems she tried to force that into the novel. Perhaps it could have been done but the theme could not be fate. I just don't see how it is fatlistic to choose to get into a sled and crash into a tree.

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## papayahed

Surprise. I don't have a problem with the ending. It was the easy way out, the tree was right there at the bottom of the hill. All Ethan had to do was aim fot the tree and that wasn't even that hard. It seems to me that Ethan is the type of person that stuff happens too, as oppossed to someone that makes things happen.

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## Janine

> Surprise. I don't have a problem with the ending. It was the easy way out, the tree was right there at the bottom of the hill. All Ethan had to do was aim fot the tree and that wasn't even that hard. It seems to me that Ethan is the type of person that stuff happens too, as oppossed to someone that makes things happen.


I agree with you *papaya*, it seems that our iert Nathan was not all that creative in his thinking about the suicide. This form of commiting suicide sure seems quite brutal and not very sure, doen't it? I think that given the circumstances and his feeling of desperation - Zeena had pretty much backed he and Matty into a corner - they went up and down the hill a few times and then suddenly it presented itself as an out, the only out there could be at that given moment. I don't think at this point it was a rational decision at all. Is suicide ever rational to begin with? They say "suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem". So if he made the sudden decision it was in a moment of passion; and being as iert as Nathan seemed to be, perhaps he only needed a little prodding to be forced forward to act. Remember, too, that the hills in New England were really like small steep mountain slopes and so it is feasible one could run into a tree and not survive. Also, early in the story it is indicated that a couple did, in fact, get hurt or killed this in this very way - by hitting that same tree while sledding. Wharton prewarns us of the great danger of that big tree, even saying some of the town's folk wanted to have it cut down. 
*V and P*, The sledding tragedy was based on an actual newspaper (1904) report, this being mentioned in the forward of my book. The exact details of that accident were not stated. However, Wharton, no doubt took the idea for the ending of her book from this sad event, perhaps changing it to suit her characters and situation. 
*Virgil*, for years this ending did not set well with me, either. Not until recently have I begun to see the sense in it and the reason Wharton had her strange ending become a botched suicide attempt. I now feel the ending is appropriate to the rest of the book, in fact I see it quite as a stroke of brilliance.

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## Virgil

But Ethan never contemplates suicide until that scene. It comes up so sudden, a pure whim. And that sled just happened to be there? 

Well, perhaps years from now the climax may sit well with me.  :Wink:

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## Janine

Yes, I am saying in essense it was on a whim he reacted and acted on it. Now you are getting picky. I don't know maybe in New England they keep sleds hidden in trees and share them for sledding.
I don't know - do you ever plan to read the book again? Wasn't twice enough? I don't think I shall read it any more, 3 was enough. I need to go onto something new like maybe another of her novels 'House of Mirth" or "Age of Innocence" - I liked both of those film adaptations so I should read the novels as well...eventually.

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## Scheherazade

I think it was Mattie's idea that they should drive the sled into the tree; it was not Ethan's decision. He, yet once again, went along with the idea but at the last moment, he did not have the guts to see it through (surprise, surprise). He tries to avoid the tree, with horrible consequeces.

I think the final scene is very befitting; it sums up Ethan's whole life and personality. Unfortunately, this time it is not only himself but also two women suffer in his hands, thanks to his inability to take action.

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## Virgil

> I think it was Mattie's idea that they should drive the sled into the tree; it was not Ethan's decision. He, yet once again, went along with the idea but at the last moment, he did not have the guts to see it through (surprise, surprise). He tries to avoid the tree, with horrible consequeces.
> 
> I think the final scene is very befitting; it sums up Ethan's whole life and personality. Unfortunately, this time it is not only himself but also two women suffer in his hands, thanks to his inability to take action.


Do you think the climax (deciding to crash into the tree) suggests fate? Was it the culmination of a fatalistic series of events? I would like your opinion, and others too. I'm curious.

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## papayahed

Do you mean strictly duriing the ending? The idea that the sled was there? I don't see it as fate at all, they had always planned on sledding the hill, and it wasn't like it was a sheer coincidence a sled was sitting there.

I would be more inclined to call it fate if it had been a true accident rather then a half-butted suicide attempt.

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## Scheherazade

Agree with pretty much everything Papaya says in her post.

I don't think it was fate. True that they coincidentally discover the sled there but Ethan tries to change the course of the sled in the last moment (and I cannot help wondering if he planned this from the beginning as he insisted that he should sit in the front during that last ride).

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## papayahed

> I think it was Mattie's idea that they should drive the sled into the tree; it was not Ethan's decision. He, yet once again, went along with the idea but at the last moment, he did not have the guts to see it through (surprise, surprise). He tries to avoid the tree, with horrible consequeces.
> 
> I think the final scene is very befitting; it sums up Ethan's whole life and personality. Unfortunately, this time it is not only himself but also two women suffer in his hands, thanks to his inability to take action.


Well put Scher, exactly what I was thinking.

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## caspian

Couldn't find EF. went on reading "the age of innocence". Wharton is comletely new for me. Quite good writer.

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## bouquin

> I've had those exact same thoughts. I assume that Ethan took a liking to the engineer and spilled his guts. But he does seem tactiturn.




I agree than Ethan is of the uncommunicative type. But he seems to have developed a certain affinity to the narrator so it is not hard for me to imagine that he would tell him his story, part of it anyway (for I could not imagine him making a tell-all confession). And then there's Zeena and Mattie, they could have also delivered disgruntled remarks here and there that served as additional information for the narrator. The rest of the story would have been inference on the part of the narrator; he does specify on the last line of the frame chapter that he "put together this vision of [Ethan's] story..."

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## Janine

I agree with you. Perhaps Ethan finally had a person he trusted to relay some of the story to, but I doubt all. He did feel a certain affinity to the narrator, which might present itself as a rare opportunity for communication in some form. 
I think basically the entire story is a sort of 'patchwork quilt' of Ethan's life pieced together from various contributing parties, to form this complete tale. Told in a 'patchwork' or piece-meal sort of way are the events of those years that determined Ethan's present life and ironic situation.

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## Scheherazade

In my opinion, the Narrator is what Ethan could be... He started to study engineering but couldn't finish and ended up leading the miserable life of his. So, Ethan is naturally drawn to him.

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## Janine

*Scher*, I agree with that. Ethan must have felt a longing for the past and his lost potential, and an affinity with the narrator. Thus he felt he could trust him with his story - he would understand, as no one in the town had.

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## bouquin

> I think it was Mattie's idea that they should drive the sled into the tree; it was not Ethan's decision. He, yet once again, went along with the idea but at the last moment, he did not have the guts to see it through (surprise, surprise). He tries to avoid the tree, with horrible consequeces.



I don't think Ethan tries to avoid the tree. He aims the sled right into the elm; there is a brief moment though when he loses his concentration (and perhaps his nerve, too) because all of a sudden he thinks he sees his wife's face blocking his path so he makes "an instinctive movement" to avoid her, making the sled swerve. But Ethan rights it again, keeps it straight, and then crashes into the tree.

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## Virgil

> I don't think Ethan tries to avoid the tree. He aims the sled right into the elm; there is a brief moment though when he loses his concentration (and perhaps his nerve, too) because all of a sudden he thinks he sees his wife's face blocking his path so he makes "an instinctive movement" to avoid her, making the sled swerve. But Ethan rights it again, keeps it straight, and then crashes into the tree.


Yeah, that's what I thought too. I didn't think he missed. Obviously he didn't miss, but did he hit it straight on square? 

But as I think of it, what a stupid thing to do?

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## Janine

> Yeah, that's what I thought too. I didn't think he missed. Obviously he didn't miss, but did he hit it straight on square? 
> 
> But as I think of it, what a stupid thing to do?


Yeah, it would seem he would pick an nicer form of suicide. But what would be nicer or available? Also if he was going to plan suicide then it would take on a whole new idea and scope. The suicide attempt was a 'dumb' move, but it was spontaneous. We don't always make our best decisions spontaneously, do we? Perhaps the thin air on the hill (mountain slope) affected their judgement? Brain freeze of something :FRlol:

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## bouquin

> Yeah, that's what I thought too. I didn't think he missed. Obviously he didn't miss, but did he hit it straight on square? 
> 
> But as I think of it, what a stupid thing to do?



I could not help feeling sympathy for Ethan ... except for when he attempted that suicide. I agree, it seemed like a really stupid thing to do. But in a way, it also seemed logical that the course of events would turn in that direction. Ethan was in a desperate situation with no satisfactory solution in sight. It was like he was at the bottom of an abyss. And then out of the blue, this terrible way out presented itself to him and so he grabbed it; it was indeed a spur-of-the-moment decision. 
There's a passage that particularly caught my attention - when Ethan insists that he sit in front of the sled. Mattie protests, saying that he would not be able to steer if he sat in front. Ethan's replies that he wants to sit in front because he wants to feel Mattie holding him. But the impression I got from his stammering reply is that he is hesitant, that that is not his real reason. I'm thinking perhaps that, despite this drastic thing that they are about to embark on, Ethan still wants to protect Mattie - he wants to make sure that it is he who careens into the tree first, he who takes the brunt of the shock. Perhaps also, by sitting up front, he thinks that he foremost would be sure to die, a decision that he seems bent on achieving. 
It is possible that Mattie was right, with Ethan in front he was not able to steer correctly and that was what prevented them from crashing into the tree with full force. Another demonstration of a no-win situation for Ethan - he wants to crash into that tree and die but he just has to sit in front ... the 2 just don't make a good combination so he doesn't get what he wants but instead ends up in an even more deplorable situation.

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## Virgil

I think you analyzed that very well bouquin. Thanks for that. Good observation.

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## Janine

I totally agree - so well put, *bouquin*. Thanks - it clarifies the end well, even the details and switching of the seating.

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## bouquin

> Do you think the climax (deciding to crash into the tree) suggests fate? Was it the culmination of a fatalistic series of events? I would like your opinion, and others too. I'm curious.


The crashing into the tree does not suggest an act of fate to me. It was a decision that Ethan (and Mattie) made, and "decision" correlates with free will rather than fate, in my opinion. It could be that it was fate that brought Zeena and then Mattie into Ethan's life - but it was by his own free choice that he asked Zeena to be his wife and decided to commit suicide with Mattie.

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## grace86

I got that impression as well that Ethan was trying to protect Mattie from the full force of the tree. I don't think he really wanted to commit suicide, but given that he had already thought of alternatives, the spontaniety (sp?) of the suicide was probably more appealing than going back home without Mattie.

But then throughout the whole book he was really obsessed with things like wanting to just touch the end of her sewing...or feel her arm pressed against his. He might have really just wanted to feel her holding him before they "died."

I thought the end was pretty crummy. I did not want Mattie to die, but I definitely think it would have been a better thing than for all three of them to stay in that house for the rest of their lives.

I am really left wondering what Zeena thought after the accident. Mrs. Hale alludes to the fact that no one ever knows Zeena's thoughts.

If it weren't for the ending, I would probably have given it my higher vote. The end kind of ruined it for me, it was too cruel and unusual. Give me a Romeo and Juliet any day. I guess I missed the message.

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## caspian

"Wharton's characters leap out from the pages and become very real. you know their hearts, souls and yearnings, and the price they pay for those yearnings" 
that's what I loved most in Wharton's writing. I've read Ethan Frome right after "the age of innocence".I'm not fond of "love triangle" stories. so didn't like the subject in general. But I was amazed by Wharton's harsh literary realizm so much. I just loved it.

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## valtheman

I just wanted to know how the landscape reflected Ethan's Character, and how the landspace was in part :Idea:   :Idea:   :Idea:   :Idea:   :Idea:   :Idea:   :Idea:  responsible for Ethan's choice of life. I am really confused with these questions can anybody help me out with this one ? :Idea:

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## Janine

> I just wanted to know how the landscape reflected Ethan's Character, and how the landspace was in part       responsible for Ethan's choice of life. I am really confused with these questions can anybody help me out with this one ?


*Hi valtheman,* Welcome to this forum. "Ethan Frome" was our last month's reading group discussion, so now it is pretty much dead. We are working on a new book. I am sure if you go back over the posts you will find some that deal with both your questions and find the answers there. There was much discussion on both ideas. One thing is the enertia characteristic of Ethan's life that is reflected in his surroundings and his run down neglected farm and farmhouse and the austerity of the landscape. There is a lot more to this, so I would go back and read all the posts or skim to ones that deal with these exact issues. Hope this helps to direct you to your answers.

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