# Writing > General Writing >  Art

## Darcy88

A song is God's voice, a painting His face, a dance His movement. Just as a drop of water adds a portion, a stroke, to the composition of a river, a lake, a sea, so these things reflect upon the nature of our Father, so these things are part and parcel of His glory, His power, His Beauty. 

Art is divine.

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## cacian

art is otptimism and so whenever you are an optimist you are an artist.

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## Alexander III

I must warn you I am very stoned right now, but this is pretty awesome as a piece, especially the beginning of the second sentence the rhythm of the beginning of the line is perfect. And I use perfect in the highest and sense of the word. Like greek god perfection. Beautiful despite its imperfection. but it is perfect, fantastic rhythm.

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## stlukesguild

art is otptimism and so whenever you are an optomist you are an artist.

Please! :Rolleyes:

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## Buh4Bee

Darn, the steaming stone has water pored on it!

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## stlukesguild

The art of optimism:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFkzRNyygfk&ob=av3n

Too bad the idiots at the FCC decided that we can't hear certain words because the "F Word" is really essential for this song... it heightens the absolute biting sarcasm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XQ2tPrBA1k



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0PpTPvbr-4

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## cacian

> art is otptimism and so whenever you are an optomist you are an artist.
> 
> Please!


Haha...I see no harm in raising the bar to another level and optimism is a new art movement which in my eyes is a perfectly decent idea.
One can achieve more by exploring other happier lesser grim avenues of feelings and emotions.

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## Alexander III

> Haha...I see no harm in raising the bar to another level and optimism is a new art movement which in my eyes is a perfectly decent idea.
> One can achieve more by exploring other happier lesser grim avenues of feelings and emotions.


But to play this game, if your object were to make the audience happy, then there is nothing so fine as tragedy. As to hear of sufferings far greater than our own, makes ours feel more trivial and gives one a sense of pleasure and relief from their sorrows.

WHile were you to present something happy, it would make a man's sorrows only more bitter unto him.

That is why there has been a long preference for tragedy over comedy. Because tragedy is feel good. To demand to remove tragedy from art and make it's sole focus on optimism, is to give your self pleasure at the expense of the audience, now you do not seem so cruel a person as to demand that art no longer relief men of their sorrows, but only exists to heighten them? Are you?

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## cacian

> But to play this game, if your object were to make the audience happy, then there is nothing so fine as tragedy. As to hear of sufferings far greater than our own, makes ours feel more trivial and gives one a sense of pleasure and relief from their sorrows.
> 
> WHile were you to present something happy, it would make a man's sorrows only more bitter unto him.
> 
> That is why there has been a long preference for tragedy over comedy. Because tragedy is feel good. To demand to remove tragedy from art and make it's sole focus on optimism, is to give your self pleasure at the expense of the audience, now you do not seem so cruel a person as to demand that art no longer relief men of their sorrows, but only exists to heighten them? Are you?


well there is a place and a time for everything.
I see art as an image of ourselves, a bit like looking into a mirror and wanting perfect as our reflection.
No one wants to look at themselves on the mirror and see a depressed shabby looking self.
That is my idea of art. A projection of a positive inspiring image in order to inspire others to feel good and go on to become artists themselves.
One needs to preserve art in order to pass it on to others to come.
If one is to see depression and gloomy images as art then the art movement won't last very long because the effect of it has on their obeservers is a negative one. Inspiration is from within and the within has to be positive and fun so not to discourage creativity long term.
So I think that art is optimist for art's sake.

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## Mutatis-Mutandis

Yes, depressing and gloomy images in art won't make the "art movement" last very long . . . despite depressing and gloomy images being used for as long as art has existed.

It's kind of futile debating the merits of art with someone who believes it should only be positive and happy, and anything else should be censored.

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## Alexander III

> well there is a place and a time for everything.
> I see art as an image of ourselves, a bit like looking into a mirror and wanting perfect as our reflection.
> No one wants to look at themselves on the mirror and see a depressed shabby looking self.
> That is my idea of art. A projection of a positive inspiring image in order to inspire others to feel good and go on to become artists themselves.
> One needs to preserve art in order to pass it on to others to come.
> If one is to see depression and gloomy images as art then the art movement won't last very long because the effect of it has on their obeservers is a negative one. Inspiration is from within and the withing has to be positive and fun so not to discourage creativity long term.
> So I think that art is optimist for art's sake.


I could rebuttal that you image of art is far to ego-centric, if in art al wee seek is to see ourselves, what need have we for art when there are mirrors, for us to be lost in, and plenty of paint for us to create an image in which we delight to get lost in. Your conception of art is a one man show. And like Narcissus drowned in the pond, by gazing only upon ourselves we equally drown in ignorance.

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## cacian

> I could rebuttal that you image of art is far to ego-centric, if in art al wee seek is to see ourselves, what need have we for art when there are mirrors, for us to be lost in, and plenty of paint for us to create an image in which we delight to get lost in. Your conception of art is a one man show. And like Narcissus drowned in the pond, by gazing only upon ourselves we equally drown in ignorance.


one equally drowns in ignorance by ignoring one'sself.
By looking down with others and for others is draggin one self down low even more.
The more negativity we aspire for the less aspirations we gather for ourselves.
To seek light is to seek life for there is more to life to be had then wanting an art that speaks desolation.
Art is a beautiful state of mind that strives on beauty and energy.
It is an expression of self and nothing more then a voice for an imaginative bouncy shape of mind.
The more energy and life art has the more beautiful the visual of art be.
That is how I see art.

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## Alexander III

> one equally drowns in ignorance by ignoring one'sself.


I never said art should not be about the artist, I only said it should not be solely about the artist.




> By looking down with others and for others is draggin one self down low even more


It is only thus if you imagine yourself to be higher than everyone else. As for myself, I am a modest creature, and think of myself as being damned amongst the lowest. So looking at anywhere but myself, I rise higher.



> The more negativity we aspire for the less aspirations we gather for ourselves.


Art is not masturbation. The singular goal should not be to provide oneself pleasure, but to provide it for others just as much as the self. You must be a very selfish lover in bed.




> To seek light is to seek life for there is more to life to be had then wanting an art that speaks desolation.


Last time I checked everyday when the sun rises, I know that it is inevitable that it shall fall and there shall be night, before it rise again.




> Art is a beautiful state of mind that strives on beauty and energy.


I agree. But that ephiancal, almost touching the heavens, moment as a greek god, kind of beauty; it is equally to be found in the mind of a man who has just conquered his first love, as it is to be found in the mind of the selfsame man, on his knees before his parents tomb.




> It is an expression of self and nothing more then a voice for an imaginative bouncy shape of mind.


Naturally art is created from the artist, so it is an expression of self, but there is a difference between the fact that art inevitably contains the self, or your notion that art should solely contain the self.

Once again to return to my previous metaphor. The art you demand is akin to masturbation, involving solely the self, for the self pleasure. The art I would advocate would be more like making love to another, involving the self, yet not only of the self, the self mingling with the other to create something new, proving pleasure to oneself but equally or even more focusing on giving pleasure to another.





> The more energy and life art has the more beautiful the visual of art be.
> That is how I see art.


I agree, energy and life are good, I doubt anyone ever said energy and life are demerits in art.

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## Alexander III

Darcy I am sorry for derailing the thread and shifting its focus from your art to general speculations upon art. But I found it necessary to defend my position upon the matter.

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## Mutatis-Mutandis

Unless I'm mistaken, cacian takes a very Romantic viewpoint when it comes to art, i.e., that art is the direct reflection of the artist, and reflects his beliefs, feelings, etc., as they truly our. Which is why she assumes Nabokov _must_ have been a pedophile at some time in his life.

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## stlukesguild

Cacian-well there is a place and a time for everything.

That would seem to be contrary to what you have stated. There would seem to me to be just as much place for tragedy, horror, angst, and sadness in art as there is for joy, happiness, ecstasy, and optimism.

I see art as an image of ourselves, a bit like looking into a mirror and wanting perfect as our reflection.

Of course you need to recognize that how you see art is not necessarily how everyone else... how other artists... see art. Yes... there are those whose artistic goal is to offer an image of the ideal that could be... yet other artists feel their calling is to bear witness to the horror and ugliness and reality that is.

No one wants to look at themselves on the mirror and see a depressed shabby looking self.



In 1669 Rembrandt van Rijn looked in the mirror and saw a rather shabby and depressed individual looking back. His face was marked by the passage of years, the weight of having lived through the slow, painful death of his beloved first wife and the recent death of his only son. His hands are a clenched blur as he fidgets nervously. He might have never been overly handsome, yet in his youth he was successful, well-dressed, and wealthy. Now he looks into the mirror as if he were staring into an abyss... awaiting the death. Perhaps this is not the self Rembrandt wished to see... but it is the reality that he did see... and he refused to perfume and prettify this reality.

A projection of a positive inspiring image in order to inspire others to feel good and go on to become artists themselves.

"Feel-good" art? That's commonly an insult to most artists. It speaks of an art that is the equivalent of candy or an ice-cream cone. Certainly there is nothing wrong with a bit of candy or ice-cream from time to time... but most of us need something more substantive. As for the artist putting forth an optimistic or "feel good" image in order to inspire others to become artists... I suspect the desire to be seen as a positive role model for the next generation is way down on the list of concerns for most artists.

One needs to preserve art in order to pass it on to others to come.

Preserving art? This sound too close to embalming art. Art is a living, ever-changing, evolving entity. Those who have done the most to "preserve" the tradition are those who question it... challenge it... reject it at times... not those who place it on a pedestal and assume it is something sacrosanct that must be "preserved". 

If one is to see depression and gloomy images as art then the art movement won't last very long because the effect of it has on their obeservers is a negative one.

I might point of that Grunwald's _Crucifixion_...



and Goya's _4th of May_...



as well as any number of other images of tragedy, horror, ugliness, etc... have had a far greater influence upon subsequent generations of artists than most any happy-happy, "feel-good" art.

Inspiration is from within and the within has to be positive and fun so not to discourage creativity long term.

Inspiration MUST be positive??? FUN??? Where have you drawn your notions concerningart? :Eek: 

one equally drowns in ignorance by ignoring one'sself.

Alexander III- I never said art should not be about the artist, I only said it should not be solely about the artist.

Exactly.

The more negativity we aspire for the less aspirations we gather for ourselves.

Art is not masturbation. The singular goal should not be to provide oneself pleasure, but to provide it for others just as much as the self. You must be a very selfish lover in bed.

You should also recognize that an art which portrays the darker realities of human existence is not necessarily aspiring to drag us down... or lacking in higher aspirations. Hamlet, King Lear, Die Gotterdammerung, and Picasso's Guernica all confront tragedy... ugliness... even horror... and yet they also aspire to the highest level of artistic expression... and achieve this.

To seek light is to seek life for there is more to life to be had then wanting an art that speaks desolation.

Last time I checked everyday when the sun rises, I know that it is inevitable that it shall fall and there shall be night, before it rise again.

Yes... the sun also rises... but it sets as well. Birth and death are part of the cycle of life. To expect art to avoid the reality of that which you would not acknowledge... would not think about... is to expect an art that offers nothing but sugar-coated, childish fantasies.

Art is a beautiful state of mind that strives on beauty and energy.

I agree. But that ephiancal, almost touching the heavens, moment as a greek god, kind of beauty; it is equally to be found in the mind of a man who has just conquered his first love, as it is to be found in the mind of the selfsame man, on his knees before his parents tomb.

Yes... and there is an energy to be found in passion, and violence, and struggle, and sex, and death. Beauty is so valued because it is so fleeting... ever tinged with our recognition of mortality. 

It is an expression of self and nothing more then a voice for an imaginative bouncy shape of mind.

"Bouncy"??!! What artists of any merit convey a "bouncy shape of mind??!!"

The more energy and life art has the more beautiful the visual of art be. That is how I see art.

Unfortunately, your concept of an art that ignores the dark or ugly aspects of human existence... or those which make you feel uncomfortable... is ultimately an art that contains less of life.

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## Darcy88

> I must warn you I am very stoned right now, but this is pretty awesome as a piece, especially the beginning of the second sentence the rhythm of the beginning of the line is perfect. And I use perfect in the highest and sense of the word. Like greek god perfection. Beautiful despite its imperfection. but it is perfect, fantastic rhythm.


Thank you Alexander. Your praise is like a gold star to me. I don't know if you've noticed but your style and mine are somewhat similar.

Thank you.

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## Alexander III

> Thank you Alexander. Your praise is like a gold star to me. I don't know if you've noticed but your style and mine are somewhat similar.
> 
> Thank you.


 :Cheers2:

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## Mutatis-Mutandis

^ Kodak moment.

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## Darcy88

> ^ Kodak moment.


If I'm ever in Italy.

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## Alexander III

> If I'm ever in Italy.


Or france or england

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