# Writing > General Writing >  Punctuation or no punctuation?

## Scheherazade

How important is punctuation for you? 

Is it a mere nuisance or does it serve a purpose in our written communication?

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## hillwalker

In a dense mass of words the occasional road-sign does help. I'm from a generation that was taught the relevance of every semi-colon and comma.

But I also think most writers can get by with full stops, commas and single inverted commas to make themselves understood, as long as they understand their function.

H

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## Lokasenna

This was the example used on me in school. Compare:




> Charles the First walked and talked half-an-hour after he was executed.


And




> Charles the First walked and talked. Half-an-hour after, he was executed.


The application of a full stop and a comma completely changes the meaning of a sentence. In fact, my paleography lecturer was explaining the other day that for decades an episode of Northumbrian history was misunderstood because the first transcriber of the relevant historical manuscript mistook a comma for a full stop, which served to change the understanding of the passage to suggest that one of the major wars of the district was caused by a minor, unimportant noble, rather than the actual war-lord who caused so much devestation in the region.

I'm not too much of a grammar nazi, but I think some elementary punctuation makes one's text infinitely cleaner and more accessible. I also think that many schools do not formally teach punctuation - there are a lot of people going to university these days who do not know how to write in a reasonable fashion. Believe me, I've struggled to mark many essays as their lack of punctuation often leaves them incoherent.

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## Jassy Melson

punctuation is only important in as far as making the work clear to readers.

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## Perandorrrr

^ Exactly. Use punctuation to your advantage. Don't let it control your words. If you're writing, you make the words out the way you want them to be interpreted using punctuation.

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## Virgil

Unless you are being artsy in a creative piece, you better use punctuation correctly; otherwise it will be rejected by an editor or demerited by a teacher. Ignorance of grammar doesn't make it correct.

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## Scheherazade

> In a dense mass of words the occasional road-sign does help.


As Loka's example highlights as well, this is very important. Punctuation and rules of grammar are not there to cause trouble for the writer but help readers follow the writer's (intended) meaning more clearly. When one produces a written work, it is their responsibility to use all the possible means to make their meaning clear to their readers.


> ... there are a lot of people going to university these days who do not know how to write in a reasonable fashion. Believe me, I've struggled to mark many essays as their lack of punctuation often leaves them incoherent.


One of my university professors used to ask us not to write in complete sentences in exams but answer the questions in mind-maps and phrases because he was enraged at our apparent lack of skills when it came to English grammar (but, in our defence, English was not our first language).

I sometimes lose heart when I realise how much my own students have got to learn.


> Unless you are being artsy in a creative piece, you better use punctuation correctly; otherwise it will be rejected by an editor or demerited by a teacher. Ignorance of grammar doesn't make it correct.


Yes, it is possible to bend some of the rules in the name of creativity probably but consistency is very important. If the apostrophe is used correctly in one line and simply ignored in the next, this, in my opinion, shows sloppiness or lack of understanding, and, therefore, is not acceptable.

If we are hoping to communicate through written language, we need to be aware of the rules that govern it to be able to employ all its tools to best of our advantage.

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## Virgil

> One of my university professors used to ask us not to write in complete sentences in exams but answer the questions in mind-maps and phrases because he was enraged at our apparent lack of skills when it came to English grammar (but, in our defence, English was not our first language).


That Prof sounds like a jerk. Instead of pushing students to learn or at least attempt writing correctly he pushed them to practice their ignorance.




> I sometimes lose heart when I realise how much my own students have got to learn.


Don't. I came out of high school knowing almost no grammar. While I had to buckle down in college and learn what I should have known, I did eventually. What students need is repetition, constant repetition, over the rules. As Aunty pointed out, there aren't that many for a basic understanding.

One other thing. Only someone well skilled in grammar can break the rules and do so to make a point. If people think they can just not learn grammar and expect to write well because it's "artsy" anyway, you've got another thing coming. There is artsy and there is ignorance, and it's quite obvious when you see it.

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## Wilde woman

> In fact, my paleography lecturer was explaining the other day that for decades an episode of Northumbrian history was misunderstood because the first transcriber of the relevant historical manuscript mistook a comma for a full stop, which served to change the understanding of the passage to suggest that one of the major wars of the district was caused by a minor, unimportant noble, rather than the actual war-lord who caused so much devestation in the region.


Do you remember what document this was in, Lok? And since you mentioned paleography, I think that OE and Middle English's lack of grammar makes the job of paleographers harder. I know its a bit of an indirect way of saying I think that grammar is indeed necessary in almost all forms of writing, and certainly anything communicative.

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## Silas Thorne

I said necessary too. 
Of course it is important to continually seek to improve punctuation, but I feel excessive attention to punctuation, at the outset anyway, may actually conflict with creative freedom and flow. 
There are perhaps cases in texts where punctuation is absent or misleading to cause deliberate 'misreads'.

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## Lokasenna

> Do you remember what document this was in, Lok? And since you mentioned paleography, I think that OE and Middle English's lack of grammar makes the job of paleographers harder. I know its a bit of an indirect way of saying I think that grammar is indeed necessary in almost all forms of writing, and certainly anything communicative.


I've been racking my brains, and it's escaped me, I'm afraid. I'll be seeing him next week, so I'll try to remember to ask what it was again.

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## zoolane

I grammar is crap but I do try used in my written. I do think it need in people written because it explain where words go in sentsence and end of sentsence.

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## Scheherazade

> That Prof sounds like a jerk. Instead of pushing students to learn or at least attempt writing correctly he pushed them to practice their ignorance.


I don' think so, Virgil. He was in the same boat as Loka: Our grammar was so bad that he was unable to judge our knowledge on British history and literature, which he taught and decided that it was unfair on us. We were taking other courses at the time, which were aimed at improving our understanding and use of English grammar.


> Don't. I came out of high school knowing almost no grammar. While I had to buckle down in college and learn what I should have known, I did eventually. What students need is repetition, constant repetition, over the rules. As Aunty pointed out, there aren't that many for a basic understanding.


My students are not highschool students. The age average in most classes is 35-40 probably (if not older) and it is hard to break the habits of a lifetime. Also, there is the student resistance to improve their grammar as they think it is "trivial". 

It is interesting that you hear people complaining about censure, how they could not use certain words (mostly swear) and discuss certain topics; they claim it is _1984_ in action but when it comes to preserving the langauge by simply adhering to some rules, they think it is unncessary or do not mind that the language might be losing its essence.


> but I feel excessive attention to punctuation, at the outset anyway, may actually conflict with creative freedom and flow.


Initially or in a draft maybe, Silas, but not in a finished copy one presents for others' viewing.



> I grammar is crap but I do try used in my written. I do think it need in people written because it explain where words go in sentsence and end of sentsence.


Zoo, 

I think there is a big difference between not-knowing and persistent sloppiness. It is easy to see in your writing that you are continuously trying to improve your writing and the way you use the language.  :Smile:

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## Haunted

Punctuation is like buttons on a shirt you can do without depending on the occasion: all buttoned down in the office or be carefree and just a knot tied on the bottom of the shirt to go with distressed denim shorts. By the same token I shy away from punctuation in free form poetry, I find it totally distracting and undramatic. But in professional writing I definitely use punctuation, it's not an option.

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## Virgil

> I don' think so, Virgil. He was in the same boat as Loka: Our grammar was so bad that he was unable to judge our knowledge on British history and literature, which he taught and decided that it was unfair on us. We were taking other courses at the time, which were aimed at improving our understanding and use of English grammar.My students are not highschool students. The age average in most classes is 35-40 probably (if not older) and it is hard to break the habits of a lifetime. Also, there is the student resistance to improve their grammar as they think it is "trivial".


Oh, that's ashame, and you're right, at that age it will be hard. But if they really are dedicated they can. I don't believe in the notion that grammar is intuitive. It's learned. They must have grammatical skills in their native language, and those need to be transfered over. Actually I wonder if someone who understood their language can show them the corresponding grammatical point from their language to English if then a light bulb might just get lit up over their heads.




> Punctuation is like buttons on a shirt you can do without depending on the occasion: all buttoned down in the office or be carefree and just a knot tied on the bottom of the shirt to go with distressed denim shorts.


 :FRlol:  What a great analogy! You're absolutely spot on!

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## Scheherazade

> They must have grammatical skills in their native language, and those need to be transfered over.


Their native langauge _is_ English. I am not an ESOL teacher. 


> Actually I wonder if someone who understood their language can show them the corresponding grammatical point from their language to English if then a light bulb might just get lit up over their heads.


I feel -both as someone who studied English as a second language and as a language teacher- that those students who have a better understanding of the grammatical aspects of their mother language find it easier to master another language.

Even though no two languages have the same exact grammatical structures, being simply aware of parts of speech and tenses at least help one compare and contrast first and second language properties, developing the understanding of how a language works.

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## Delta40

I think punctuation is important. Having said that, I have discovered punctuation can often hinder the flow of a good piece of poetry. Other times, the poem requires it.

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## Virgil

> Their native langauge _is_ English. I am not an ESOL teacher.


Oh gosh. They're forty and they're still in school and struggling with grammar. That is sad. Well, they are trying to make something of themselves, and that deserves admiration and some level of respect.




> I feel -both as someone who studied English as a second language and as a language teacher- that those students who have a better understanding of the grammatical aspects of their mother language find it easier to master another language.
> 
> Even though no two languages have the same exact grammatical structures, being simply aware of parts of speech and tenses at least help one compare and contrast first and second language properties, developing the understanding of how a language works.


Absolutely. That's why I suggested it.

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## Skia

When my mum sends me a text, she always says... gt me a pcket of biscits fr the dog your ema as also gne in dont foget my milk.

Can anyone even understand that without punctuation?

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## Jassy Melson

In most cases correct punctuation is best, but there are times when it's not. The reader is all-important when it comes to punctuation. The writer should always keep in mind: What is the best punctuation, if any, to use that would best clarify what is being written to the reader.

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## Scheherazade

> Oh gosh. They're forty and they're still in school and struggling with grammar. That is sad. Well, they are trying to make something of themselves, and that deserves admiration and some level of respect.


I really admire them that they decide to make changes in their lives and walking into a class can be intimidating. Most of them are school leavers (teen-moms especially) but there are some who never had the chance to attend school regularly while younger.

Most of them carry on to study other things (professional diplomas and certificates) and I feel so uplifted when they get jobs in the fields they have been dreaming of.


> In most cases correct punctuation is best, but there are times when it's not. The reader is all-important when it comes to punctuation. The writer should always keep in mind: What is the best punctuation, if any, to use that would best clarify what is being written to the reader.


Yes, I agree that it is a writer's responsibility to make the text accessible to his or her readers but can you give us some example when punctuation does not actually help clarify in a written text?

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## AuntShecky

Here's an example I heard way back, several Presidential administrations ago illustrating the necessity of a comma.

Leaving out the comma between "woman" and "sleep" changes the meaning entirely:

Next to a beautiful woman sleep is the most wonderful thing in the world.

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## DickZ

I agree that punctuation is just as important as spelling and grammar - at least if you would like someone to read your material. I always cringe when I see a post that says "_Please review my writing and give me feedback, unless its got something to do with speling or grammer because those arent important_." 

I immediately stop reading at that point. If you can't show some discipline and respect for the language, then it's unlikely that you can keep someone's attention.

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## brainstrain

Grammar is extremely important to clarity of writing, of course. What Virgil said about ignorant usage versus 'artsy' usage is also true - one can always tell which it is.

To help my own skills as a writer, and just as a sort of public service, I often review the stories of amateur writers through another forum that I am part of. In my critiques, I always have to reign in my criticism of their grammar, spelling, and various shortcomings in structure and word-choice. Those types of errors are always present in abundance, but I have learned that, although they are important, when critiquing a young writer, they are not what matters most.

Apparent confidence is the deciding factor, for me, as to how much I focus on the technical aspect of writing. With amateur writers, submitting their work over the internet, confidence is universally shaky. So I focus on the big picture, the 'fun' stuff: character development, description, framing, subtlety, etc. These are things the writer feels he has control over and will be willing to work to improve. The dedication to technical excellence has to come from them, from their own desire to create a more perfect work. Sometimes, when the only other person to read their story will be myself, grammar is just not so important.

When I encounter a more confident writer, however, I don't hold back. It's always satisfying to take a messy paragraph and refine it into something cohesive and precise, every word chosen with care. So few are willing to put in that kind of work.

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## Jassy Melson

Here is a question that in my mind resolves the entire matter: Which is more important, correct punctuation or being clear to the reader?

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## AuntShecky

> Which is more important, correct punctuation or being clear to the reader?


The two choices are not mutually exclusive.

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## L.M. The Third

Of course I voted that punctuation is necessary. Take this for example. 

An English teacher wrote the words: "A woman without her man is nothing" on the blackboard and asked his students to punctuate it correctly.

All the males in the class wrote: "A woman, without her man, is nothing."

All the females in the class wrote: "A woman: without her, man is nothing."

Yet use of commas, for example, can vary greatly even in published works. Only today I was reading a book which I felt used some commas unnecessarily. And yet I'm certain that I sometimes use them gratuitously too.

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## Scheherazade

> Here is a question that in my mind resolves the entire matter: Which is more important, correct punctuation or being clear to the reader?


Can you please give an example where correctly used punctuation actually fails to make the meaning clear in a written text?

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## xtianfriborg13

Use punctuation marks when necessary. Just make sure you place them correctly in the sentence. Wrong usage may change a lot of things in your compositions. i.e.g Thoughts

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