# Writing > Personal Poetry >  Does the Personal Poetry forum need a "Make-over?"

## AuntShecky

The proverbial "little birdie" who apparently hasn't yet made his annual fall migration told me that recently some members have expressed disappointment with the LitNet's Personal Poetry forum. Apparently, both the quality of the posted poems as well as the replies to the individual threads have stirred up some dissatisfaction.

I am not a LitNet administrator. I don't even play one on tv. I've nevertheless spent over 4 decades of trying to learn everything I could about the subject. I've visited this particular website almost daily for over three years, so if you'll allow me, I will tell you what I've observed.

The aforementioned feathered friend told me that some LitNetters have found the current crop of personal poetry postings to be "mediocre."

Mediocrity alone is not a reason to avoid reading these offerings. For example, let me momentarily switch venues from creative writing to professional sports, for just as Marianne Moore wrote, "Baseball is like writing." During this, and several past MLB seasons, the New York Mets have been the personification of mediocrity, but that never stopped me from watching every televised Mets game that I could. Despite the inevitable disappointment, if not heartbreak, I enjoy seeing the efforts of individual players who once in a while make seemingly "effortless" plays, but even without the occasional glimmerings of a gem, I'd still watch. That's because even when the game is bad, one still can learn something. 

Same with reading verse, some of which is so abstract and ponderous that it's similar to what Thomas Merton said about reading the newspaper --a penance. Yet every writing advice book says that you should read the good stuff so you'll know what to do -- and the bad stuff so you'll know what NOT to do.

I won't lie to you-- I don't read every single poem that's posted, but I do read --or start to read -- as many as I can. Aside from a handful of members whose work more or less demonstrates a certain consistency and quality, most of the offerings in the personal poetry do tend to be "mediocre" in the sense that they are written by amateurs (such as I) who are generally young (such as I am certainly not.)

Of the latter, I have the unmistakable impression not so much that these young writers haven't spent enough time writing but that they clearly haven't spent enough time reading good poetry.

I'm not suggesting that you must read every poem from the last several centuries plus the entire Norton Anthology of Modern Poetry, before you sit down and try to compose a few lines of verse. But I strongly suggest that you have some idea of what a poem is and how a poem takes shape -- and I do mean "how." What makes a poem good is not "what" it is about, but in its form, "how" it expresses the "what."

Undoubtedly young writers seem to be immune to what Harold Bloom called "the anxiety of influence" and maybe it's a good thing that rookies are not deterred by the fact that several centuries' worth of artistic works of stunning genius have already preceded their arrival. Just as the fact that baseball had already engendered a Cy Young and a Ted Williams did not discourage a Sandy Koufax or a Willie Mays from succeeding them, so do today's rising stars set aside their greenness and step up to the mound or the plate. "Practice," as the cliché reminds us, "makes perfect." Whether it's perfecting the fast ball or iambic pentameter, we learn by doing. It's all about the "process."

Pundits often say that the baseball season is a marathon, not a sprint. Same with a poet's personal development. Yet sometimes some of the poems in question look like they're attempting to run a 50-yard dash--as if they weren't previously thought out, composed line by line over a period of time, and then revised, but rather hastily typed in the white box and with little or no revision, let alone proofread, then the box that says "submit new thread" gets "clicked" faster than the speed of sound. I am willing to bet this month's rent that there have been a number of occasions in which I've spent more time writing a reply to a particular poem than the original poster had spent writing the thing. 

So now we come to the second objection to the personal poetry forum--the replies. Evidently some members believe that the responses seem to be superficial, a pro forma, one-size-fits-all compliment on the order of "Awesome, Dude!" (or superlatives to that effect.) 

I suppose that sort of response has some value when the reader believes that the original poster is merely looking for acknowledgment or validation, a stamp of approval that the vehicle at least has been parked. Sometimes when we -- by that I mean you and me-- finish writing a piece, we think, maybe, perhaps, we might have something here, something "worthwhile," worthy to be "shared." In these cases, there is a little two-way transaction going on, a generosity of spirit between both poster and replier. In those cases--maybe especially in those cases--cursory praise doesn't really fill the bill. On the contrary, inflating somebody's ego is not doing him or her any favors. In fact, it might harm him, leading him to think that what he has just posted is good, that what is in reality "mediocre" will always be acceptable in his future offerings.

Better to pick an aspect of the piece that's really effective, what "works," what doesn't. This will help the would-be poet learn what to do, and what not to do in his or her next offering. 

When the administrators advise members to post all of their poems in one thread, it doesn't limit your talent or make your postings inaccessible. On the contrary, when your poems are scattered all over the forum in individual threads it's hard for both the poet himself -- and the LitNet members following your writing development --to see if or how your work is improving. 

Obviously you can see that I care about this forum and I'm not about to abandon it because of its flaws. But now that these imperfections have been brought into focus again, I truly think that we should make an attempt to improve our own writing, our replies, and the Personal Poetry forum itself. 

I hope I haven't ruffled too many feathers. What say you?

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## zoolane

Hi AuntySheck,

I admit to that I haven't read ed any book on poetry from when I was in school, My written is not great lots of mistakes and that some poems that I posts are probably 'medicre'. Of later the poems that I have post on this site have been uncomfortable subject matters.

I have said that if it was for some great individuals on this site, that help me with my confidence and helping me to build up courage to going back college.

so I apologies if you are getting complaint about my posts.

Zoo

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## Jerrybaldy

Sanctimonious.
This site is either created by people for people and what is posted is posted and what is replied is replied or it is controlled and quality controlled. I have heard from you on one occasion since I have joined in May and although I understand some of your reasons for this posting I find it pious.

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## Haunted

I think the birdie is crying foul over my Trashy Poems. sigh.

I have been on this site for 1.5 years and it wasn't until May/June this year that I found the right environment for my writing. The current crop is above amateur, some resemble stuff coming out of university Creative Writing Programs, while a few are publish quality. 

And who said we have to write our comments saying something doesn't work about the poem? Can't we just say what we want to say, which is, that we simply like it? What's wrong about pumping up a fellow writer so they have the confidence they need to continue writing?

I've been guilty of the abovementioned. Now I feel a gush of self loathing coming on.

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## Jerrybaldy

Futhermore I would give my gracious thanks that you are not about to abandon this forum through its flaws. I will sleep more soundly now.

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## Delta40

The structure of your writing lacks a certain appeal as well as flow. It is bumpy and awkward, which resulted in me not completing the journey of this tale.  I assume you would wish us all to reach the conclusion? It may be however less about you and more about our duel mediocrity....alas, such things are never clear to others... 

Perhaps Lit-net should have two poetry forums? One reserved for poets of calibre and their fellow critcs and another for the mediocre. Lit-net can allocate each post according to its own rating!

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## NikolaiI

Perhaps this belongs on General Chat, or Serious Discussions, or best yet, thread called "the Literature Network", which is subheaded "discuss or give feedback on the site."

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## Bar22do

Dear Auntie,

To paraphrase the famous saying, you offer valuable thoughts to people who do not appreciate them. 
*I lacked your courage and plead guilty.*
Your account adheres so firmly to the sad facts. 
Until approximately last May/June we moved in an ambitious circle of poetry lovers and students (with one or two good teachers too) then taken over, rather suddenly, by an unpleasant lot... some of us believed it was only an unfortunate transient occurrence and waited patiently, posting occasionally and immediately drowned in the flood of cheap, poetry unrelated chats and posts. Some other withdrew quickly, foreseeing what today's Forum reality confirms, alas. 
Auntie, you're dear and precious, but your noble endeavour can produce no results... Just read the first reactions... 
I wish I had your talent to add my own detailed contribution to the defense of poetry and on its behalf. But even if I had, the crowd thunders and sadly has the last word... 

So these are only a few lines of desperate support, doomed to failure.

Fondly,

Bar

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## Virgil

> So now we come to the second objection to the personal poetry forum--the replies. Evidently some members believe that the responses seem to be superficial, a pro forma, one-size-fits-all compliment on the order of "Awesome, Dude!" (or superlatives to that effect.) 
> ...What say you?


Interesting you should start this thread Aunty. Recently I've remarked to myself how vibrant the Personal Poetry forum has been in this last six months to a year. I have never seen so much posted.

However I have to say that your second objection struck a chord with me. I don't remember exactly when it happen (four months ago, six months ago?) I made a decision that I would no longer offer any real comment to personal poems. I'm objective and that can be harsh and on several instances people have reacted negatively to my comments. We argued, and whether you agree with my criticism or not, it's criticism that doesn't just yes to death and say how marvelous the poem is. I'm sorry, no one here is a professional poet and all poems can have difficiencies. If all people want to here is affirmative comments, then I thought it best I no longer participate. So now I rarely even go into the forum.

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## Haunted

> I'm sorry, no one here is a professional poet and all poems can have difficiencies.


no you're wrong, there's at least one or more professionals here, they just don't advertise. 

And why is it so hard to accept that some poems are just perfect??

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## Bar22do

> Interesting you should start this thread Aunty. *Recently I've remarked to myself how vibrant the Personal Poetry forum has been in this last six months to a year. I have never seen so much posted.*
> 
> However I have to say that your second objection struck a chord with me. I don't remember exactly when it happen (four months ago, six months ago?) I made a decision that I would no longer offer any real comment to personal poems. I'm objective and that can be harsh and on several instances people have reacted negatively to my comments. We argued, and whether you agree with my criticism or not, it's criticism that doesn't just yes to death and say how marvelous the poem is. I'm sorry, no one here is a professional poet and all poems can have difficiencies. If all people want to here is affirmative comments, then I thought it best I no longer participate. So now I rarely even go into the forum.


Virgil, your withdrawal from commenting has been painfully felt by some of us who seek honest feedback and critique. 

Now, that you "have never seen so much posted" is a part of the problem. There is no chance for a poem to stay on the front page for more than moments to be read, thought of and appreciated, and while the administration's rules clearly stipulate we shouldn't create more than one thread per day, I counted up to six per day in certain cases! 
So the vibrancy of the recent forum activity is mostly quantitative (plus the quantity of chat, not less vibrant...).

Good to read you, though circumstances are hard.

Bar

It's so sad, *Haunted*, that you, such a good poet yourself (and I mean it), got caught in league against the health of this forum...

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## symphony

I'll gulp and start with a "Well....!"

I am not going to comment on the poems posted (since I myself am also to be blamed for posting wanna-be "poems"), rather on the replies. I have been a little irregular here of late. I will admit that over the last few months I only came here when I had finished writing one of my almost-poems. These days I find it more difficult to be satisfied with what I write so it is not often that I feel I have "finished" a piece and am ready to share it. But it is always here that I come to (right after my personal blog) to share those. I've never really called my poems Poetry, but I happen to appreciate and love Poetry. I am certainly among the amateur writers here and contribute to the worthless pieces, but yes I too come and post here for productive comments. I do like the polite thumbs-ups but this forum has been home to me for many years now and one of the reasons I keep coming back to it is because I have experienced the pleasure of getting creative comments on my (or anyone else's) poems here. To put it straight, it helped me realize where I stood. So, while some comments burst the bubble, I still liked them if they made a point. And still when I post here, it is to get a creative and honest (at the same time friendly) comment from the people here. I have great respect for all the members here and have reason to believe that this place has some great writers and critics, who are also friendly and wonderful people to know. I am quite thankful to this forum.

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## Virgil

> no you're wrong, there's at least one or more professionals here, they just don't advertise. 
> 
> And why is it so hard to accept that some poems are just perfect??


 :FRlol:  Yes some are outstanding and I comment as such there as well. I was trying to make a point above, not be exactly accurate.  :Wink5: 




> [COLOR="Navy"]Now, that you "have never seen so much posted" is a part of the problem. There is no chance for a poem to stay on the front page for more than moments to be read, thought of and appreciated, and while the administration's rules clearly stipulate we shouldn't create more than one thread per day, I counted up to six per day in certain cases!


I guess that is true. I guess the volume is a double edged sword.

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## Delta40

I never knew a thing about poetry till I stumbled onto Lit-net where I was originally posting short stories. I read poetry now. Not the classics but obscure unheard ofs whose books are likely self-published. I never would have ventrued into this part of the world were it not for Lit-Net. I am so glad I did. I love the distinctive differences of each poster I read, their diverse talent, premise and direction. It has opened my world that bit wider in terms of finding creative channels of expression. 

I resent the term mediocrity since, I consider it to be such a convenient relative term that one might use in order to place themselves above others. One is free to do so if they so choose. One may also sneer at those who do not meet their self-imposed criterion or one can leave and create an exclusive poets forum with yearly membership fees to represent its exlusivity. That may remain the concern of others and not me.

Having said that, I myself am a poor critic. Oft poems have no redeeming features for me. This may be due to the fact I have not developed a full appreciation of poetry. I occasionally offer a suggestion but mostly (and importantly) I express how the poem affects me, the reader. Many people like me don't critique but I resent the implication that such comments are nothing more than an 'awesome dude' posting. 

There is a wide range of personalities amongst us. Some want nothing more than a critique, others can't bear such comments and seek a cursory pat on the back. others forge online friendships which binds the ties and ironically results in honest critiques; but only between friends! 

Allow us all the freedom to appreciate our own journey rather than force us to gaze into the far distance and wish we were like the obscure micro dots on the horizon that are deemed great poets. Rather, stand aside and usher us onwards

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## Silas Thorne

Thank you Aunt Shecky for your honesty and considerate statements on what I also consider to be the reality of the personal poetry forum. I'm going to throw my own opinion out here too. I must admit that I have also been guilty of these two flaws at times: posting (which is essentially publishing) here without care, and not being constructive enough in my response to poems. I will of course endeavour to improve my actions in relation to both of these flaws.




> And who said we have to write our comments saying something doesn't work about the poem? Can't we just say what we want to say, which is, that we simply like it? What's wrong about pumping up a fellow writer so they have the confidence they need to continue writing?


I'll try not to hold back too much in my response here. Excuse me for any flaws in my expression. I'm using a Mac laptop at present and it's painful for me. I keep hitting keys I don't want to, and feel the screen's too small.  :Smile: 

You should say that you like something if you really do. By all means be enthusiastic. But you won't improve your own understanding of poetry, or another person's writing, through too much flattery. Praise where you see praise is due, but you shouldn't hold back from drawing attention to what you see are faults. Of course, this doesn't mean the writer will necessarily agree with you, but I believe a serious writer will appreciate carefully considered criticism from anyone. 
I would hope that someone who puts their work in the personal poetry section, and not the games, would actually want to get some constructive feedback. I would also hope that responses to poetry posted in the personal poetry section are not just responses to the content of the poetry alone, but to the way that that that content is expressed through the placement of the words on the page (screen  :Wink: ) and how they sound when read aloud. 
Just a few reactions to this topic.

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## NikolaiI

Aunt, you may mean well, but your post accumulates to simply criticizing many poets, and not even naming them. Delta's point, her facetious suggestion that we create separate threads - one for all the good poets, and one for the mediocre ones - is a perceptive and penetrating remark. Unfortunately, all you've done is hurt the feelings of many, in a bit of an underhanded fashion: a public dismissal of many poets in a half-way veiled, ambiguous way. It leaves us questioning, "am I included in this insult?"

I might not always appreciate the poetry that people post but I don't have a problem with them posting it. I saw someone post somewhere around 6 poems on one day too, but that was a little while ago, and once they were informed about the rule not to post more than one a day, I don't think they've done so since. 

It's been my experienced actually, that those who are the quickest to educate others about their poetic failings are the worst poets themselves - though they think they're the best. A connection perhaps, or perhaps not. 

But that just happens, we rub feathers with people. I've been given hurtful, sarcastic and condescending posts about my poems. When I looked at the poems of these people, they seemed utterly devoid of any life or feeling or poetic value. Maybe it's my own perception keeping me from seeing that they're not utterly terrible poets, and they're actually mediocre, or maybe they're even good. But in the end it's just something that happens, and it's not the end of the world. And I can understand how you feel - even after an exchange with one person like this one, it left me feeling like this was an unfriendly place. If I felt that the majority of posters were like this person, I can't say I would have the courage to write up a post like you did.

With this person I spoke of, I never had any more contact with. I still consider them to be an unpleasant person - like Bar22do mentioned, the unpleasant lot - and so I don't have an objective perspective about it. But I do have a bit more objective view toward the current situation. Bar22do says, circumstances are hard. Virgil mentions he had just recently thought how great it is that there's so much activity on the Poetry forums. 

Basically my thought is this, that there's room for all of us here. Remember that poetry is subjective. What you think is good another may not, and what you think is bad, another may think is good. People have criticized my poetry harshly and condescendingly, and it's stung all the worse because the things they wrote seemed to be far-less-than-mediocre poems! And I'm pretty darn sure I'm right! But that's just the fact of it, and they have the right to write poems here if they want and I won't interfere, and I have the right to as well. 

Maybe that person things I should read more of the greats - maybe I read and love Swinburne, Shelley, Dickinson, Sri Aurobindo, and others - and maybe they think those are trash.

I guess the basic point is - we can all get along if we try, that's my main point. Objectively, that is what I see, that you and your anonymous sympathizers can get along with this (somewhat ambiguously demarked) "new group," but your long post is a fairly big step in the wrong direction, for several reasons.

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## symphony

> And who said we have to write our comments saying something doesn't work about the poem? Can't we just say what we want to say, which is, that we simply like it? What's wrong about pumping up a fellow writer so they have the confidence they need to continue writing?
> 
> I've been guilty of the abovementioned. Now I feel a gush of self loathing coming on.


While on that note, I too said I wanted some honest critiques and creative comments but that doesnt mean one will go trying to find errors even when they just like/love a poem and want to say so. Probably what I and the others supporting "creative replies" meant here was to say they wanted more too. Thumbs-ups are nice, but I'm one who'd probably like to hear what (if anything) made a poem like-able to someone too. A word can sometimes say it. And I didnt really mean all errors and ways to improve when I said "creative replies", one can just say he likes it or loves it, and say why (or if they dont consciously know why, but has an intuition or _feeling_ of the beauty in there, they can say so). I think the idea is just to provide more for the writer to honestly know their readers' reactions. And sometimes a gentle thumbs-up may not reveal much.

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## MANICHAEAN

I have no talent for writing poetry & thus have never submitted any to this forum.

But as an outsider may I just add to the current discussion on the aspect of the criticism of poetry by other contributers.

Invariably critical comments take upon themselves to weigh and judge from their own pedestals. But what we really need, (if we are honest enough with ourselves), is an honest and quite personal articulation as to how a poem really hits us when it finds us for the moment natural and off our guard.

The object is not to convert the reader to whatever opinions one may have formulated. It should be to divest oneself of such opinions and in due humility give oneself up to the various visions and temperaments of the writer (whatever the percieved merit or otherwise). Alternatively, like unwanted spam, delete & move on. A case in point only recently, there was a rather, abstract, structural criticism of one of Prince's poems. With all due decorum he told them; thats how he wrote, that was his style, he was comfortable with it and to b----r off.

Look at the linkage between so called "constructive" criticism and standards of consistency. A critic need not necessarily approach the world from a pluralistic angle; but there must be something of such pluralism in his natural temper, or the poets he can respond to will be very few.

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## Jerrybaldy

Well Bar22do's post takes patronising to a whole new level. I am without doubt a member of your 'unpleasant lot'. You obviously lack the courage to name names as did Shecky, so I can only guess at other members of your imagined enfant terribles. 

I will take to writing with a new gusto now I am a part of a movement. To return the compliment I will name your own like minded group ' The anally retentive' .

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## hillwalker

*Aunty* - *Jerrybaldy* - it's difficult to take sides (but obviously that is what we are expected to do since one apparently cannot offer constructive criticism on here any more without appearing to be elitist).

I joined here about 6 months ago and my first post was like walking across hot coals - you've seen other people do it and they all say it's painless if you have the courage of your convictions but.... that first step. Surely it's going to be traumatic.

I got good reviews - I also got suggestions how I could improve. Exactly what I needed to encourage me to write more poetry and learn from those who had been writing much longer than I had.

Recently it has become more a case of boos or cheers - and as has been advertised on most of the 'witty' responses over the last 24 hours it's more important that one comments only on what the poem is *about* rather than on it's poetic qualities.

So where does that leave the LitNet Poetry Forum? Heaven help us if it becomes another social networking site where everybody loves everybody else and criticism is about as useful as a pat on the head.

Personally I won't be dissuaded from postng responses to those writers who welcome encouragement and some gentle 'patronising' - it's all given with the best intentions. And to those who do have genuine talent despite their protestations - and Delta/Haunted I include you both here - I hope I'm still allowed to put in a word now and again despite not agreeing with some of your recent reactionary comments.

There are some marvellous, aspiring writers still developing their craft and testing the waters on here - they deserve more than just some dumbed-down second-rate applause masquerading as camaraderie. 
There are also those who regularly post poems on here who never crit anyone else's work. I'm appalled by such selfishness and I rarely if ever comment on their pieces - you know who you are.

To anyone I may have offended (and I'm sure there will be many by now) - get over yourselves.
To anyone looking for a family of wannabe-writers who take writing more seriously than is good for their health I hope we are not witnessing the collapse of what has up to now been a Godsend.

Peace

H

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## Lokasenna

I understand where you are coming from Aunty.

The problem is particularly pronounced for busy people - sometimes, when I'm up to my eyes in work, I can only check Lit-net every other day, and the 'new posts' button brings up so many poems that I'd be hours reading them all, so I tend to selectively choose people whose poetry I already know. It also means that I tend to post fewer comments, because even if I was just acknowledging that I like each poem, I'd be posting dozens and dozens of replies.

One way around it, I think, is for members to make a dedicated thread for all their own poetry. My output isn't much, but when I write something, it goes in the appropriately named 'Lokasenna's Poetry Thread' - that way, when someone who knows me or has enjoyed my poetry before notes a new post in it, it likely means I've produced something else without the need to create yet another thread in an already over-stuffed forum section.

http://www.online-literature.com/for...ad.php?t=50681

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## TheFifthElement

*Aunty* you're very brave  :Biggrin:  For the record, I've always found you honest and forthright and I've always appreciated it, even though I may not have always agreed. It's an interesting point you've raised, which has generated a lot of interesting responses. 

*hillwalker* I think everything you've said is great. I think the difficulty, always, with this kind of forum is the not knowing what the writer is expecting. No one wants to put off anyone taking their first tentative and, let's be honest, fairly terrifying steps on the creative writing journey, but neither it is helpful to have the fear of being accused of elitism, or being abused or ignored if you post a thoughtful and honest critique of someone's poem. Now I personally favour the honest critique; it can be painful but it is what helps me (and I suspect others) grow as a writer. But that's where I am and that's what I want, not everyone wants that experience. Some people posting may well be exactly where they want to be and entirely in control of who they are as a writer and they post merely to share. On the other hand someone may find critiques very hard to swallow; it takes a certain amount of confidence to accept criticism (however constructive), and the problem is that you cannot know a writer's level of confidence from a poem posted on the forum. So when you come to the poetry forum there's always that uncertainty. You find a poem. You do not know if the writer wants a critique. You do not know if they're going to blast you for giving one, or dismiss your efforts, or if your critique is going to crush their confidence as a writer. So it's easier all round not to bother. I know it would seriously hack me off if I'd spent time and effort analysing and critiquing a poem under the illusion that this was the purpose for which the writer had posted it only for the writer to, however politely, ignore it. They may not agree with it, that's fair enough and that's part of the creative journey, developing your own inner editor. But to dismiss someone's careful analysis of a posted poem is as insulting as someone popping on and saying 'your poem sucks'. But if you know someone doesn't want a critique you can read the poem, post a quick comment if you so choose, and move on. If you know someone wants a critique then you don't feel so nervous about posting one, as generally I find that people who are seeking critiques are open to receiving any comments in a positive manner. Providing you post them respectfully, that is. 

It's a long time since I've felt it worthwhile visiting the poetry forum, not because the poetry is bad or otherwise but because a lot of the members who I knew were interested in giving and receiving a critiquing have either left or are infrequent visitors, and those who are left I simply don't know well enough to know how they will receive my comments. And if I post a poem and get a whole lot of cursory comments I feel disappointed and not a little frustrated because, nice as it is, a pat on the back won't help me. So instead I go to writersdock which is a critiquing site and everyone knows what each other wants. It's simply easier. 

With this in mind, would it be better if the poetry forum was split into the 'workshop' poetry, for those who are looking to both give and receive full critiques of their poems, and the 'sharing' poetry, for those who are just looking for the 'I liked it' or 'I didn't like it' comments with no more analysis wanted or required? That way you would know simply by visiting each forum what to expect? Or if splitting the forum isn't possible (as I suspect it is not, as my requests to create a short story writing exercise forum currently go ingored) perhaps the posters could submit a quick line before each poem: 'please critique' or 'just for sharing' or 'please critique, but be gentle I'm new', to give readers a clue what you're expecting. 

Communication people. It's the key  :Biggrin:

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## dafydd manton

The implication seems to be that some of us are posting poems that are not our best. I find that hard to imagine - speaking for many I know on here, we do our best because we know that others are going to read them. There is always constructive criticism, some of which, if I have any about mistakes I do my PM - a funny little thing called respecting a person's dignity.

As for the positive comments, maybe, to those of us who do not profess to be great poets, but ordinary people who are trying to share, a poem may look exceptionally good, and if it is, should we refrain from comment? If we don't like a poem, and there are inevtably those that one doesn't, is it considered good manners or even acceptable to say that one doesn't, or is it best to say nothing. The latter would seem to be the case. 

It is an interesting point that those most vociferous in their condemnation and criticism post poetry very rarely if at all, and there is unfortunately an element that seems to be merely resting on it's laurels.



As for the chat, on certain threads. We, the undesirable element, do so on each other's threads because we are friends, an it is a way of sharing and enjoying. We would not dream of doing so on the threads of thos who believe they are above all this. If the critic wishes to pass comment on a poem and by-pass the fact that some are actually enjoying literature, the poem is at the front, the comments are at the end of the thread, and it isn't necessary to read what is in between.

If literature is meant to be serious, thank heaven for the Keith Waterhouses, Alan Corens, James Thurbers and Edward Lears Hillaire Bellocs of this world......

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## Lokasenna

> The implication seems to be that some of us are posting poems that are not our best. I find that hard to imagine - speaking for many I know on here, we do our best because we know that others are going to read them. There is always constructive criticism, some of which, if I have any about mistakes I do my PM - a funny little thing called respecting a person's dignity.
> 
> As for the positive comments, maybe, to those of us who do not profess to be great poets, but ordinary people who are trying to share, a poem may look exceptionally good, and if it is, should we refrain from comment? If we don't like a poem, and there are inevtably those that one doesn't, is it considered good manners or even acceptable to say that one doesn't, or is it best to say nothing. The latter would seem to be the case. 
> 
> It is an interesting point that those most vociferous in their condemnation and criticism post poetry very rarely if at all, and there is unfortunately an element that seems to be merely resting on it's laurels.
> 
> 
> 
> As for the chat, on certain threads. We, the undesirable element, do so on each other's threads because we are friends, an it is a way of sharing and enjoying. We would not dream of doing so on the threads of thos who believe they are above all this. If the critic wishes to pass comment on a poem and by-pass the fact that some are actually enjoying literature, the poem is at the front, the comments are at the end of the thread, and it isn't necessary to read what is in between.
> ...


I don't think it's meant in an elitist way - or at least, I don't percieve it as such. 

As far as I'm concerned, it's more to do with volume than quality, and while I would love to read every poem, I simply don't have time, so I am somewhat forced to choose, and thus am more likely to look at poems that come from people I already read and enjoy. I am, however, far too aware of my own inadequacies as a poet to make a value judgement of others poetry.

If I don't have a critical point to make, to simply say "I don't like it" about a piece would be rather awkward, and I know I would be disheartened to recieve such a comment. Something similar, I think, also applies to praise - if you praise everything, then surely that devalues your praise; I prefer to save it up for the poems that really, really catch my attention. Besides which, there are only so many ways of saying "I like it," which can ultimately lead to some very banal posts.

I don't think there's any element of snobbery - or am I wrong?

----------


## PrinceMyshkin

*God si love*
reads a banner in the cave of Marabar in EM Forster's _A Passage to India_, to which message one might respond:

_Why don't those illiterate Hindhis, Sikh or Muslims learn how to write English properly!_
or_How charming!_
or_A noble intention is nonetheless noble for the misplacement of a couple of letters..._

But first I might have begun by thanking AuntShecky for initiating this spirited discussion. I often disagree with her punctilious responses to this or that poem, her insistence on the established formalities of English prosody. What emerges from these responses is that in our differing ways, we each care deeply about this site and in particular, the Personal Poetry forum.

My own take is [obscenity] the rules, even the long history of poetry in English: we (or I) write to manifest our (my) existence and do not - or should not - expect everyone to appreciate that existence, but--

But once I elect to write in English I have no choice but to respect what others know or think the English language is but (this will be the last contradiction) for me the writing of a poem is not altogether dissimilar from virtually any other social interaction I might have. It would be foolish of me to expect everyone I encounter to respond to my _Good morning!_ with an equally well-intentioned offering.

So let's continue here, passing by the poems we think poor or self-evident, praising however we can those we think poor but sincere, critiquing as vigorously as we can or care to those we think have merit but which could in a detail or different choice of words, line breaks or images be improved, and let us remember:

*Poetry si good!*

----------


## Skia

Well, I must say *FML*.




> offerings in the personal poetry do tend to be "mediocre" in the sense that they are written by amateurs who are generally young


Well, I am young, maybe the youngest poet, I am not sure. I am a complete Ameteur. I think that I do write "Mediocre" (A term which I dislike using) poetry and I get meaningful feedback from everyone on LitNet which I appreciate completely. 

This may be my teenage hormones kicking in or whatever but as to the replies? So what If we put awesome! Brilliant! Brava! 
and this is such as teenage Cliche but *whatever, I really don't care what people think about my work, I care for only those who reply with critique or wonderful comments.*

I'll carry on writing Mediocre poetry and I'll carry on giving mediocre replies until I gain enough... experience and knoweledge about poetry, I have learnt so much already and I know I have much much more to learn, and with the kind folks of lit net, Im sure i'll be there in no time!! 

And as for the chatting on threads? What, seriously? Come on people, we are a community! We are friends, this healthy chat isn't hurting anyone!

To the folks annoyed out there : *Sorry but, Get over it and stop being such a mard-arse. Act your age. Not your shoe size 
*
Skia,  :Smile:

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## Bar22do

For the right order, this belongs here, as the theme indicates:




> Amateurish Poem
> 
> 
> We, the great unskilled, are challenged.
> Those who resent our honesty
> Have spoken.
> Our skill is not their skill,
> Our education not on a par with theirs.
> We do not claim elitism,
> ...



Well, *Not so silent*, judging from the above. Or from this "problematic" thread. Speaking of vociferations and vulgarity...
But as I said somewhere before, you, not me, will have the last word.
You already have.

(just in case you wanted an explanation, the endless grandiose, networking bubble and _mouah_ on PP Forum front page had for its effect bumping up always the same threads (in which poetry was long forgotten), totally disrespectful of others' presence on this page; do you call it good manners or fair, friendly attitude? It's precisely for this reason that many have left the forum, not because they thought they were better poets than others)

(last, just for the record, it seems to me that I was the one who first gave you the example/idea that some comments are better conveyed through pms.) 

I'm not a part of this forum anymore (precisely for the above mentioned reasons) and if I spoke, it was only *out of indignation* the first comments to Auntie's great, tactful and considered address filled me with. And especially because she took upon herself to share the worry not only of her own initiative. It would certainly feel more fair play if we could hear/read the original voice, too.

Good luck to all - Bar

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## Haunted

> Personally I won't be dissuaded from postng responses to those writers who welcome encouragement and some gentle 'patronising' - it's all given with the best intentions. And to those who do have genuine talent despite their protestations - and Delta/Haunted I include you both here - I hope I'm still allowed to put in a word now and again despite not agreeing with some of your recent reactionary comments.


Hill, I wrote in my multi poem thread, Trash a Trashy Poem. Feel free to do so anytime. However, don't hold back if you have a compliment either, a positive comment is still a comment, it tells one they are heading in the right direction.





> It's so sad, *Haunted*, that you, such a good poet yourself (and I mean it), got caught in league against the health of this forum...


well thanks Bar, as I said earlier, I like the way things are currently. I haven't written much until recently. Right now it has the right mix of people and poetry to rejuvenate my passion in writing again.





> Some people posting may well be exactly where they want to be and entirely in control of who they are as a writer and they post merely to share. On the other hand someone may find critiques very hard to swallow; it takes a certain amount of confidence to accept criticism (however constructive), and the problem is that you cannot know a writer's level of confidence from a poem posted on the forum. So when you come to the poetry forum there's always that uncertainty. You find a poem. You do not know if the writer wants a critique. You do not know if they're going to blast you for giving one, or dismiss your efforts, or if your critique is going to crush their confidence as a writer. So it's easier all round not to bother.


You assume too much. Just another excuse to not participate.





> Better to pick an aspect of the piece that's really effective, what "works," what doesn't. This will help the would-be poet learn what to do, and what not to do in his or her next offering.


*Aunt, may I ask when was the last time you comment on our poems?
Zilch.

When was the last time you (in your own words) pick an aspect of the piece that's really effective, what "works," what doesn't?
Zilch.

Then why are you criticizing us for not criticizing enough when you never criticize?*

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## Skia

> *Aunt, may I ask when was the last time you comment on our poems?
> Zilch.
> When was the last time you (in your own words) pick an aspect of the piece that's really effective, what "works," what doesn't?
> Zilch.
> 
> Then why are you criticizing us for not criticizing enough when you never criticize?*


Haunted - Hear! Hear! - *Words that are NOT from a mediocre poet!!!*

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## hillwalker

Wooh - time out?

I've obviously been doing something wrong over the last few months - expecting feedback from fellow-writers that would guide me along the road to self-improvement. And similarly offering advice, encouragement and support to others prepared to expose their poetry and short stories for scrutiny.

Perhaps some on here do treat this site as an internet-version of Vanity publishing 

- "to hell with what the reader wants, as long as my name is in lights"

I just hadn't felt it applied to 90% of LitNet writers until the matter has come up on the responses here.

Well I can't change my ways - I would be doing a disservice to those who have grafted over their lines in order to create something they feel is worth sharing.

I agree we are meant to be a big happy family - on here to have fun. But we are still a family of writers not lonely hearts. So I have to agree with *Bar22* - I make an effort to keep up with all the responses as well as the poems, and to see the same poem constantly bumped to the top of the page at the expense of new postings when all that's being offered is a new 'mwa' is so frustrating.

It's hardly likely to attract new writers looking to make something of themselves.

And to any new writers reading this (you all know who you are) - the term 'mediocrity' that seems to have been aimed at so many recent postings does not apply to you. It only applies to those few in number who dismiss actually caring about writing as 'elitism' - what you might call 'reverse snobbery' which is just as bad.

H

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## dafydd manton

> For the right order, this belongs here, as the theme indicates:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, *Not so silent*, judging from the above. Or from this "problematic" thread. Speaking of vociferations and vulgarity...
> But as I said somewhere before, you, not me, will have the last word.
> You already have.
> 
> ...


Bar, thanks for re-posting the poem. Look upon it as a valedictory, which was the intention. And thanks for your help in the past.

Cheers

Dafydd

----------


## TheFifthElement

> You assume too much. Just another excuse to not participate.


As you assume also, Haunted. We are none of us guilt free when it comes to making assumptions. It is what makes life so tricky and yet so interesting. Without this assumptive gap there would be little room for poetry  :Wink:  

Which was my point, really. What I was suggesting was that it might be beneficial if the person posting the poem specifically state what they want from the forum so that _no one has to assume anything_, or perhaps it is truer to say that people have to assume less. What's apparent from the discussion here is that people want different things from the poetry forum. Some people just want to have fun, and that's fine. Some people want to share and make friends, and that's fine. Some people want other people to read their poem and tell them what they could do better, and that's fine too. But everyone is groping around _assuming_ as you say and as a result there's a significant amount of crossed wires. It's a barrier. A little bit extra information could just start to remove those barriers. And it would help to retain diversity. If poets like hillwalker and Silas Thorne jon1jt and Virgil and Bar22do are going elsewhere because they're not getting what they want out of this forum then the forum is not richer for it. And that's nothing to do with elitism and everything to do with variety. I feel the loss of the poets past who do not post here anymore. Of course new poets come along to fill the gap, but I'd much rather have those poets past _and_ the new poets. The more the merrier. Call me greedy, I won't deny it  :Biggrin: 

Room for everyone? Whether you want critiques or not. Is that really such a terrible suggestion?

----------


## zoolane

So let me get straight Aunty is said:

''Because I am not professional writer or with items publishing, I shouldn't be allow my mediocre work on this site but I am under the impression this public site with the interest of freedom speech is not?
And I am admit I do 1 sentence or few words comment on other users thread general because I do know what make of piece yet.

----------


## Haunted

> As you assume also, Haunted. We are none of us guilt free when it comes to making assumptions. It is what makes life so tricky and yet so interesting. Without this assumptive gap there would be little room for poetry  
> 
> Which was my point, really. What I was suggesting was that it might be beneficial if the person posting the poem specifically state what they want from the forum so that _no one has to assume anything_, or perhaps it is truer to say that people have to assume less. What's apparent from the discussion here is that people want different things from the poetry forum. Some people just want to have fun, and that's fine. Some people want to share and make friends, and that's fine. Some people want other people to read their poem and tell them what they could do better, and that's fine too. But everyone is groping around _assuming_ as you say and as a result there's a significant amount of crossed wires. It's a barrier.


Fifth, we want EVERYTHING. So no more assuming this or that, just comment away if you would. People who post their writing on a public forum know what to expect, we may be amateurs but we are not that stupid.

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## Skia

I agree with Haunted. Just to say.  :Biggrin:

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## Haunted

Thanks Skia, for your comment earlier, but my stuff is really very mediocre. We'll see what Fifth and Aunt have to say  :Biggrin: 

*Fifth*, so you heard from myself and Skia, we take any comments, good bad and the ugly. Why don't you critique our stuff now?  :Wink:

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## Skia

Exactly Haunted - and It's not that your Mediocre, You're learning like everybody else on here. Nobody is perfect. Some may think they are. But they are not.

----------


## PrinceMyshkin

> Wooh - time out?
> 
> I've obviously been doing something wrong over the last few months - expecting feedback from fellow-writers that would guide me along the road to self-improvement. And similarly offering advice, encouragement and support to others prepared to expose their poetry and short stories for scrutiny.
> 
> Perhaps some on here do treat this site as an internet-version of Vanity publishing 
> 
> - "to hell with what the reader wants, as long as my name is in lights"
> 
> I just hadn't felt it applied to 90% of LitNet writers until the matter has come up on the responses here.


But, so what if posters have vanity reasons for posting here? Would we care or dare to examine the motivations why any of our favourite published poets from the past exposed their poems to view? Even Shakespeare, it is said, wrote for a living. The only way to approach his or anyone else's output is the quality of the result, which I have always felt re yourself and a number of the better critics (and poets) on here have responded to the work of others. Certaily not in every case but in a sufficient number of them there is a glorious marriage between the perspicacity of the responses and the respectful collegiality with which those responses are offered.




> Well I can't change my ways - I would be doing a disservice to those who have grafted over their lines in order to create something they feel is worth sharing.
> 
> I agree we are meant to be a big happy family - on here to have fun. But we are still a family of writers not lonely hearts.


And as in any family, we have our diverse attitudes and benevolence or envy or competitiveness.




> So I have to agree with *Bar22* - I make an effort to keep up with all the responses as well as the poems, and to see the same poem constantly bumped to the top of the page at the expense of new postings when all that's being offered is a new 'mwa' is so frustrating.


Here I quite agree and wonder why the flirtatious banterers need to do so in public, when they could be PMing each other to their heart's - or libido's - content.




> It's hardly likely to attract new writers looking to make something of themselves.
> 
> And to any new writers reading this (you all know who you are) - the term 'mediocrity' that seems to have been aimed at so many recent postings does not apply to you. It only applies to those few in number who dismiss actually caring about writing as 'elitism' - what you might call 'reverse snobbery' which is just as bad.
> 
> H


And to certain of those who have posted here in a spirit contrary to yours (and _they_ know who they are), I say that every complaint is a failure to appreciate something else.

----------


## TheFifthElement

> Fifth, we want EVERYTHING. So no more assuming this or that, just comment away if you would. People who post their writing on a public forum know what to expect, we may be amateurs but we are not that stupid.


Ah, but you are assuming again  :Wink:  I do not think you are stupid, for a start. Neither do I think that people who post on a public forum necessarily know what to expect either, as I have learned from personal experience of critiquing people's work (and, in fairness, learned the first time I posted something of my own too!). As Virgil commented on also. The problem is that it's impossible to know who is aware of what to expect and who isn't when all you have to go on is a poem. And I have been burned, often, and not always by the poet themselves! Pehaps I shouldn't have been put off from putting my hand in the fire, but when there's a nicely guarded fireplace somewhere else it's, perhaps, not surprising that in my limited free time I migrate there instead. 

But I can see that you are open to critique, Haunted. So now I know that for the future  :Smile:  




> So let me get straight Aunty is said:
> 
> ''Because I am not professional writer or with items publishing, I shouldn't be allow my mediocre work on this site but I am under the impression this public site with the interest of freedom speech is not?
> And I am admit I do 1 sentence or few words comment on other users thread general because what make of piece yet.


zoolane, I do not think that is what Aunt Shecky is saying though I understand why you might see it that way. It would be better if Aunt Shecky could comment on it herself, but here is my interpretation. Firstly:



> Aside from a handful of members whose work more or less demonstrates a certain consistency and quality, most of the offerings in the personal poetry do tend to be "mediocre" in the sense that they are written by amateurs (such as I) who are generally young (such as I am certainly not.)


for a start you may notice that Aunt Shecky includes herself as a 'mediocre amateur'. She also qualifies the use of the term 'mediocre' is used to mean work which is written by poets who are not professional poets and those who are 'generally' (but not universally) young and therefore, by inference, learning the craft. Now she make be making an incorrect assumption here, but it is fair to assume that professional poets are having their work published and would not, therefore, be posting it in a public forum. The reason for this assumption is that the vast majority of publications consider that if a poem has been posted online it is 'published' and they will only accept previously unpublished submissions. The professional poet is likely to be more guarded of their work, and less likely to publish the finished article online. That being said, a professional poet may well use a public forum for honing a piece prior to finalising and submitting it for publication, although I'm inclined to think this is unlikely here as Litnet is not really a good place for workshopping, as I have commented already, and I'm yet to see one of Simon Armitage's poems up here for me to critique! I accept, I may be wrong about that. It's also possible a professional poet may choose to share a work that they do not intend to submit for publication. So perhaps Aunt Shecky also assumes too much, but I do not think she intended it as an insult, or intended to suggest that young, developing poets did not post their work on the site. She did suggest that perhaps they need to read more poetry, which is probably true of both young and old poets alike, myself included  :Smile: 

Oh, and don't be under the illusion that this is a public site interested in freedom of speech. This is a privately run public forum and operates censorship in many forms. For example, it is impossible to have a discussion about male chickens without getting ****'d all over the place  :Biggrin:

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## zoolane

Fifth, 
I understand what was said by Aunty and you but to point, poetry is expression writer feelings or opinion on something is freedom of speech will to me it.

As for censorship I total agree with to point.

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## TheFifthElement

> *Fifth*, so you heard from myself and Skia, we take any comments, good bad and the ugly. Why don't you critique our stuff now?


Will do Haunted  :Biggrin:  but right now must make pizza and locate my children before social services permanently relive me of them (they are never where they're supposed to be).

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## NikolaiI

> Oh, and don't be under the illusion that this is a public site interested in freedom of speech. This is a privately run public forum and operates censorship in many forms. For example, it is impossible to have a discussion about male chickens without getting ****'d all over the place


But it *is* free. And there are rules. And none of them say that your poems have to meet someone's standards. *And*, you can write different kinds of poems, including nonsense poetry if you want to. It's so very absurd for someone to write a public post about all these recent poems they don't think are any good. And I'm a bit shocked at all the people who praised and agreed with it - and saying that these new writers are an "unpleasant lot," while at the same time saying the general thrust is for the health of the forum.

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## Skia

> But it *is* free. And there are rules. And none of them say that your poems have to meet someone's standards. *And*, you can write different kinds of poems, including nonsense poetry if you want to. It's so very absurd for someone to write a public post about all these recent poems they don't think are any good. And I'm a bit shocked at all the people who praised and agreed with it - and saying that these new writers are an "unpleasant lot," while at the same time saying the general thrust is for the health of the forum.



Your words made me smile with satisfaction, someone who has their head screwed on.  :Smile:

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## Lumiere

Oh, humans.
What a mess we make of things.

I take no side, and think it a shame that there are now sides to be taken.

I would like to point out, however:

1
Oftentimes the writer of a mediocre poem cannot identify it as a mediocre poem.

2
It seems the general complaint is that quantity has overtaken quality; for starters, would it not help if users would limit themselves to one thread a day? This is already a rule, but apparently an ignored one.

3
As for the bouncy interaction: surely these affectionate banterings are not bad of themselves, no. But when they become the centerpiece of the forum, we have to remember why we've flocked here: poetry, and love of it, and wishes to improve. 

Here's hoping,
L

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## Lokasenna

Right, I've had a read through of this whole thread carefully, and I think there are actually two arguments going on here, both coming from the OP:

1. There is a point about the quality of the poetry. As far as I'm concerned, this is not something that can be argued. We should not censor anybody - you might disagree with a poem, or consider it 'mediocre', but it has every right to be up here. No one is obliged to comment on, or even read, a poem simply because it is up here.

2. There is a seperate point about the quantity of poetry. Well, I've already suggested that forum members should create a thread dedicated to their own poetry, which they can update periodically. Not only will that keep the forum tidier, but it will also mean that if people miss one of your poems, they are more likely to see it a second time when the thread is updated. I think that if the stalwarts of our community, many of whom have posted in this thread, where to start doing this, then I suspect most people would follow suit. In terms of the quality/quantity dynamic of poetic output, that has to be up to the individual in question. For every poem I post up here, six or seven get consigned to my notebooks because they do not meet my personal standards, and are 'beyond saving'. But if I wanted to post up every ditty I pen, then that is my right - they would, I suspect, get few comments, and deservedly so.

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## Skia

Ah Lokasenna ; 


> it has every right to be up here. No one is obliged to comment on, or even read, a poem simply because it is up here.


*
Well said.*

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## quasimodo1

"Better to pick an aspect of the piece that's really effective, what 'works,' what doesn't. This will help the would-be poet learn what to do, and what not to do in his or her next offering." Aunt Sheky Thank you Auntie for your incisive essay on this subject. As for my take on this "controversy" ...my only constant objection to any offering of personal poetry is the evidence of a general "dumbing-down" of many of the young writers and the reading public in general. Auntie has said it all, and with a skill and genuine interest that is impressive and effective. My feeling on personal poetry postings is that these writers are at least getting out there and doing something, regardless of the almost infinite genious quality precedents that have been set since a few centuries before Gutenburg. When evaluating any given example of personal poetry, you really have to put preconditions aside and just give the writer a chance. Being judgemental in an inevitable part of the process but, in a perfect world, not a personal judgement. If the writer is young and intellectually inexperienced... so be it and so what. At the very least, we have a person willing to put themself out there and thankfully free of that most deadly of faults for writers... apathy. I refuse to make negative or disparaging comments on ill-conceived efforts at poetry and enjoy offering anything positive or encouraging. Any writer of poetry, in order to have any chance of writing poetry and continuing to do so, needs some kind of happy circumstance by way of another sincerely appreciating his/her poetry or at least making an enthusiastic effort. Back in the day, while attempting to major in mathmatics at Catholic University, a professor took me aside and said "...let me tell you Joe, the best you can really hope for in advanced math, compared to your fellow students, is to be highly mediocre." I changed my major. "Judge not less you be judged" ...a quote by an extremely religious person. q1

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## TheFifthElement

> But it *is* free.


 :FRlol: 

Post a political poem and see how long it stays on there.




> It's so very absurd for someone to write a public post about all these recent poems they don't think are any good.


 :FRlol:  free speech man. Yeah. Except for those posts we don't like. Let's get rid of them  :Wink:

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## Skia

I posted a poem on Racism (the stereotype of a white man beating a black man) and it stayed on there.

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## NikolaiI

> Post a political poem and see how long it stays on there.
> 
>  free speech man. Yeah. Except for those posts we don't like. Let's get rid of them


No I said free - doesn't cost anything. Doesn't require a membership due or a permit to write.




> Your words made me smile with satisfaction, someone who has their head screwed on.


Thanks, that was my view of your post too.

----------


## Revolte

> Perhaps Lit-net should have two poetry forums? One reserved for poets of calibre and their fellow critcs and another for the mediocre. Lit-net can allocate each post according to its own rating!


If anything, this. I don't even know what else to say. Whatever the outcome I don't think it would be wise to limit poets from posting, maybe I'm bias, after all I have thrown out a couple poems with no real attempt whatsoever, but writers block will do that to yah. Anyway, I don't think poetry that needs work should be treated in a similar fashion as  :Spam: , you know? One thing we shouldn't forget, what one person views as 'mediocre' another may view as wonderful. It's not much different then how someone may think your favorite band is crap, another might want to get it tattooed on their lower back.

----------


## NikolaiI

> If anything, this. I don't even know what else to say. Whatever the outcome I don't think it would be wise to limit poets from posting, maybe I'm bias, after all I have thrown out a couple poems with no real attempt whatsoever, but writers block will do that to yah. Anyway, I don't think poetry that needs work should be treated in a similar fashion as , you know? One thing we shouldn't forget, what one person views as 'mediocre' another may view as wonderful. It's not much different then how someone may think your favorite band is crap, another might want to get it tattooed on their lower back.


Yes, Revolte, you said it simply and perfectly.. Much better than I have. Wish people could understand this.

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## TheFifthElement

> No I said free - doesn't cost anything. Doesn't require a membership due or a permit to write.


I see. I didn't dispute that. zoolane had been talking about freedom of speech, which is what my comment (which you had quoted) referred to.

----------


## hillwalker

It's not just about the definition of 'mediocre'* because there are very few postings on here that one feels would have been better left in the drawer.
It's about the reason why we post on here 

1 - to get feedback, or
2 - just to put our work on display

Personally just having it on display is a pointless exercise, but perhaps a forum could be started for those who do not wish to have their work criticised.

*And apologies in advance for any offence caused but - anybody on here who thinks they're 'mediocre', check this out.

Just to let you know what else is available out there on less 'elitist' sites heres a poem (and 'critiques') copied and pasted from another site a few minutes ago.

If this is what most of LitNets members are really looking for on here then ok.... but count me out.




> Sometimes When Im Alone.... [final 2 verses omitted  it gets worse]
> 
> I like to reflect in quiet solitude
> while I touch myself in filthy,
> filthy ways.....
> 
> I like this time to myself
> as it gives me time to think,
> think of how the time goes by
> ...


This earned 7 Responses

*1 super as usual !!!!!!!!!!!!! 

2 you are so sensitive.......like a POET ..... 

3 you always get me going 

4 Gallows_Humor

5 one in the stink.... two in the...... 

6 I think swollen ball sack was better 

7 ....too flippin funny...my ribs are hurting.*

You have been warned.

H

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## TheFifthElement

> Personally just having it on display is a pointless exercise, but perhaps a forum could be started for those who do not wish to have their work criticised.


Yes, that was my suggestion also. It's not about value judgement, but perhaps more about intent. Some people want critiques, some don't. I think we need an easier way of knowing which is which so that people aren't inadvertently missing the point.




> *Fifth*, so you heard from myself and Skia, we take any comments, good bad and the ugly. Why don't you critique our stuff now?


I have now critiqued Skia's poem 'What if', and I'll critique one of yours, Haunted, when you 'pay it forward' and supply a critique for the benefit of another poetry forum member. Doesn't have to be one of mine, in fact it's probably better if it's not as I'm not currently writing poetry (I'm on stories and can't, no matter how I try, write both poems and prose at the same time) and someone else may therefore benefit more from your wisdom  :Biggrin: 

Give & take. That's what it's all about (and not the hokey cokey, as you may have otherwise heard.)

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## NikolaiI

> I see. I didn't dispute that. zoolane had been talking about freedom of speech, which is what my comment (which you had quoted) referred to.


So now you have no reply...?

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## TheFifthElement

> So now you have no reply...?


What is there to reply to?

----------


## aliengirl

I am not a poet and truly speaking I didn't much care about poetry earlier. I prefer novels and short stories. But after reading poems here in personal poetry forum, I began to like it. I don't think there should be any restriction on people to post their works here. True that they are not elite but sometimes they touch our heart and we simply say so. Our comments really boosts the confidence of the writer. Perhaps this may help them to become better poets. If I don't like any poem then I prefer to remain silent. 

But there remains the problem of one person posting more than one thread in one day. I think the best method is to make a thread in your own name and post your poems in it. It will give chance to some new poems which often sink to the bottom unnoticed. 

And I think that all the people posting their poems here for our scrutiny are working really hard and they are brave enough to face constructive criticism. Good luck to all lit-net poets.  :Smile:

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## NikolaiI

> What is there to reply to?


What I wrote... or you couldn't understand?

----------


## Skia

> I have now critiqued Skia's poem 'What if',


He did and I must say I appreciate it  :Smile: 

And *Nik* - You are welcome  :Smile:

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## TheFifthElement

> What I wrote... or you couldn't understand?


What you wrote involved quoting me out of context. It is the only reason I replied at all. In the post you quoted I said this:



> Oh, and don't be under the illusion that this is a public site interested in freedom of speech. This is a privately run public forum and operates censorship in many forms. For example, it is impossible to have a discussion about male chickens without getting ****'d all over the place


and it appears you responded with a comment about what the site cost. But that had nothing to do with my post. Now you have clarified that point there is nothing really more to be said about it. I have said enough already without needing to subject everyone to me saying it all over again. But as you force my hand, here it is:

If you read my posts you'll note I am not an advocate of censorship. Neither have I accused anyone here of posting mediocre work.

I am an advocate of greater clarity in what people want from the forum. So that those who want to workshop can workshop, and those who want to socialise and share can socialise and share. Then everyone is happy and no one is stepping on each other's toes. 

In a nutshell.

----------


## Skia

You know what? 
This is getting pathetic.

----------


## AuntShecky

My goodness! I never thought there would be so many responses to the original posting. Before I say anything else, let me thank _everyone_ of you for contributing to this discussion. Thank you to those, such as Bar, for defending me, but so _many replies_ were forthright and showed, as Prince and others pointed out, that the members do care about this forum that acknowledging all of them would take all afternoon, but I have to mention some _particularly_ cogent:
Delta40 (#14), hillwalker (#20), Lokasenna (#21), Fifth Element (#22), PrinceMyshkin (#25) and Lumiere(#44)--
BUT-- please don't think that just because your reply isn't in this list that it wasn't useful or appreciated.

Now, if I may, some necessary clarifications:

I did not --and still do not-- know who had initially raised the notorious "mediocre" charge nor whose work unfortunately caught that label. The alarm bells, however,went off at the thought that some of our members were bolting, the very ones whose work and criticism set a good example. I did not want these members to leave. That was the sole --perhaps selfish--reason I posted this plea. I never intended to sit on a high horse to show off or to be contentious or pretentious, and I am deeply sorry that some readers have bruised feelings. (It's ironic that some readers thought it was directed at them personally, but the ones who ask "Is it me?" "Is it me?" are most likely NOT the ones who had inspired the "mediocre" label.) The last thing I want to encourage is mean-spiritedness. What I did hope for was a lively discussion, to which so many of you generously contributed.

Two important points I want to make:
#1. It is absolutely _untrue_ that posting all of one's poems in a single thread, for instance with an umbrella title such as "Niamh's poems" rather than in individual threads will decrease the number of readers. Everytime we members post a "reply" that posting automatically gets "bumped" to the top of the queue. If a number of days go by in which the original poster doesn't see enough repsonses, he or she can always "bump" the posting himself. Some members, usually new ones, may not know the adminstrative rule that_ we are not supposed to post more than one poem a day in an individual thread_. But it is my understanding that a member can post as many "replies" in his or her own personal poetry thread as he or she wants.

Which brings me to Important Point #2:
If on any given day I see that the same member has posted _multiple_ threads in the Personal Poetry forum, I won't read any of them. If anyone wonders why I personally haven't responded to your personal poetry posting, that is one reason. 

Another reason I don't reply is if the posting is riddled _with a great number_ of spelling and grammatical errors, such as using a lower case "i" for the word "I." It seems to me that if the member wants feedback for his or her work, it would be better to show a little more respect not only to the readers but to the language itself. 

If the posting is on an topic that has already been done to death, and most likely better, over the course of several centuries of Western literature, I probably won't take time to read it, nor if the posting is heavy with abstractions and
clichés. Again, I hasten to remind people, _I am not thinking of any specific member of the LitNet_ when I say this.

And finally, I realize that we live in an age in which shades of gray have rightly surplanted the former rigid distinctions between black and white. In countless areas of human discourse "circumstances alter cases." When it comes to distinguishing the good from the bad, he postmodern era has made cowards of us all. Still -- no one is ever going to convince me that there is no qualitative difference between "Trees" and "Lapis Lazuli." 

It's difficult to argue against innocent self-expression, which in most cases is valid. There are wide and divergent differences in taste. No argument there.

But to reiterate the point of the posting that opened this thread: Let's try not to lose any members who contribute so much to the LitNet. One way to keep them is by making an effort to make the Personal Poetry Forum better.

Peace.




> *Aunt, may I ask when was the last time you comment on our poems?
> Zilch.
> 
> When was the last time you (in your own words) pick an aspect of the piece that's really effective, what "works," what doesn't?
> Zilch.
> 
> Then why are you criticizing us for not criticizing enough when you never criticize?*



One example. Please look at the thread titled "New Poems" posted by Dieter. My reply took nearly an entire afternoon.

----------


## NikolaiI

> What you wrote involved quoting me out of context. It is the only reason I replied at all. In the post you quoted I said this:
> 
> and it appears you responded with a comment about what the site cost. But that had nothing to do with my post. Now you have clarified that point there is nothing really more to be said about it. I have said enough already without needing to subject everyone to me saying it all over again. But as you force my hand, here it is:
> 
> If you read my posts you'll note I am not an advocate of censorship. Neither have I accused anyone here of posting mediocre work.
> 
> I am an advocate of greater clarity in what people want from the forum. So that those who want to workshop can workshop, and those who want to socialise and share can socialise and share. Then everyone is happy and no one is stepping on each other's toes. 
> 
> In a nutshell.


No I wasn't quoting you out of context, not at all. I was replying to you, and you misunderstood what I meant. But I think it's pointless at this point, because I don't think you can understand that.

That's good at least, that you're not complaining here that everyone is writing bad poems, and you're not calling the new poets an unpleasant lot. I misunderstood as I thought you were in agreement with the complaint. I think this whole thing is absurd, out of line, and divisive (and hurtful). And as you said, "I think everything you've said is great," to hillwalker, I assumed you were in line with him and the others.

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## NikolaiI

> You know what? 
> This is getting pathetic.


Yes, it is. It's really incredible, and sad.

----------


## Revolte

> Yes, it is. It's really incredible, and sad.


You have to appreciate the strife though. 

My gift to all:




Now, perhaps the discussion could continue with out any personal feelings of inferiority (after all, a kitty hug will make even those allergic smile) which I don't think where intended on being brought to the table.

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## dafydd manton

OK, how about we put this to bed now, and all go back to our corners, sadder but wiser? Before one or two hurtful comments do untold damage to our Forum? There have already been a few unpleasant insults thrown around (Not by the OP), and it might be wisest if we just let sleeping dogs lie, and went back to doing what we do best. Whilst we still have a Forum to enjoy.....

----------


## NikolaiI

> My goodness! I never thought there would be so many responses to the original posting. Before I say anything else, let me thank _everyone_ of you for contributing to this discussion. Thank you to those, such as Bar, for defending me, but so _many replies_ were forthright and showed, as Prince and others pointed out, that the members do care about this forum that acknowledging all of them would take all afternoon, but I have to mention some _particularly_ cogent:
> Delta40 (#14), hillwalker (#20), Lokasenna (#21), Fifth Element (#22), PrinceMyshkin (#25) and Lumiere(#44)--
> BUT-- please don't think that just because your reply isn't in this list that it wasn't useful or appreciated.
> 
> Now, if I may, some necessary clarifications:
> 
> I did not --and still do not-- know who had initially raised the notorious "mediocre" charge nor whose work unfortunately caught that label. The alarm bells, however,went off at the thought that some of our members were bolting, the very ones whose work and criticism set a good example. I did not want these members to leave. That was the sole --perhaps selfish--reason I posted this plea. I never intended to sit on a high horse to show off or to be contentious or pretentious, and I am deeply sorry that some readers have bruised feelings. (It's ironic that some readers thought it was directed at them personally, but the ones who ask "Is it me?" "Is it me?" are most likely NOT the ones who had inspired the "mediocre" label.) The last thing I want to encourage is mean-spiritedness. What I did hope for was a lively discussion, to which so many of you generously contributed.
> 
> Two important points I want to make:
> ...


So "i carry your heart" by e e cummings is out for you, then! lol.

Well, like I said you may have meant well, but your post really just added up to a long complaint that the poetry people were writing wasn't good! And then Bar adding onto it calling them an unpleasant lot, and the others with their replies as well, came up to a rather unpleasant barrage.

Your complaints were primarily, the poetry wasn't good, and people were posting too many poems in one day. Let's address those, really. The first one is just absurd. Perhaps not absurd that you think they're bad, but that you post a very long public post here, complaining that they are not good? You say you don't want to engender mean-spiritedness, but this isn't really a tenable position. Your second complaint that they are posting too many poems in one day is not substantiated. You just say this. And yes it's happened but as I pointed out, that was a while ago. 

Another thing you point out, of the, as Bar says, "unpleasant lot," is that they are mostly young. Unless I'm way off on who you think this group is, I would have to say only one or two of them are young! And the rest are middle-aged. Not so important, just an interesting mis-idea.

And Aunt, I don't mean this post in any mean-spiritedness, either. I hope you don't think I do.

If people are not posting more than one poem in a day - and I do not think they are, and certainly after this I do not think they are - then what is your real complaint? Are you still, really behind your concern that their poetry is "mediocre" (I really think by this term you are speaking of poems that you think are no good). You say people have left because they found this whole atmosphere threatening. Is it more threatening than a sudden and let me only imagine absolutely unexpected post saying their poems are no good - and they should read some really good poetry? 

An innocent opinion of someone's poem I can understand, but you cannot naively ignore the effect of your words. You've really hurt some people here, really affected them, and one or two, maybe more, are very seriously considering leaving because of your post and the replies to it. 

The continued disucssion - those who are in support of your complaint, that the new poets have run all the old poets off - only continues by those who are in support of your complaint continuing on and attempting to prove the premise that the new group, the "unpleasant lot," have been writing bad poetry and ruining this thread. That's the only way it can continue, by arguing to defend and support that premise. That's going to engender some bad feelings.

So, I don't mean this in any bad faith or mean-spirit, Aunt. But I hope you can realize how absurd this appears. A long complaint about the quality of poets who are friends, the assertion that they should read poems by the real poets! - and that they ruin the poetry forums - AND run good poets off. All of this so incredibly absurd, and further, the hurt it's caused. I think they only way you could post your second post still defending your first is that you don't understand the hurt you caused those you were not bold enough to face in the open.

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## dafydd manton

Please, guys and gals.....before we wreck everything....................

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## Haunted

> I have now critiqued Skia's poem 'What if', and I'll critique one of yours, Haunted, when you 'pay it forward' and supply a critique for the benefit of another poetry forum member.


Fifth, you obviously don't come to this forum often, because if you did, you would know that I comment on several poems every day. If you go to my profile page, click on Statistics, and check Find all posts by Haunted, you will also see that I commented on at least 2 poems today already.

So I paid my dues today already. Now what's your excuse? Fifth, I'm not going to put you on the spot. You DON'T have to comment on anything I wrote. I'm just pointing out the ones who said to criticique critically don't do what they preach. 

Also I don't just go with the top posts, I go into page 2 and 3. Those who blame others for bumping them down only have themselves to blame that they probably don't look beyond the first page.





> One example. Please look at the thread titled "New Poems" posted by Dieter. My reply took nearly an entire afternoon.


Can you say how many comments you've made:
1. yesterday?
2. the past 7 days?
3. last 4 weeks?

I'd love for you to grace my work with your honest critique. However long it'll take you. Im patient. But don't make me wait 10 years. Thank you.

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## Jerrybaldy

With apologies to those desparate for this to end. 
This calls for a list
1 I am not aware of anybody unwilling to recieve healthy criticism.
2 A point that has not been mentioned is that many may not feel the confidence to criticise. When I very first posted here, I considered my lot to post and others with greater knowledge to comment and critique as I felt wholly unworthy of criticising anybody elses work. I would add that I soon got in the swing and comment daily on many postings. Still there are poets such as Hill and Prince who's work I feel totally unqualified to critique. I do agree with the thought that we should maybe criticise each others work more freely without fear of upsetting. I have always welcomed criticism of my work and will always. At times I have changed the piece completely as a result and at times I have thought better of it. 
3 I find the accusation of the 'unpleasant lot' astounding. I have met and read the work of many characters on here, but only one unpleasant through acts of plagiarism. If the unpleasantness refers to the subjects written about then maybe that would be a very good time to post your thoughts. This leaves a bad taste. But I will spit it out. 
4 The one post a day is fair enough. Personally I do not like single threads with added poems, I find it off putting to seek the new post. But thats just me.
5 Despite my own thoughts I think this thread has probably done more good than harm so... Thanks Aunt (through gritted teeth  :Wink:  )

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## shortstoryfan

I agree that this thread has brought up some important ideas. 

I am part of a writing group offline, and I'm even uncomfortable making suggestions there. Sometimes I don't feel that I get what the poet's goals are, I don't get the techniques they are using. Other times, I have seen people take criticism and refute every piece that was given. I did something really bad the other day on my blog on here with a poem I wrote. TheFifthElement was kind enough to give me critique, and even though I said I kind of agreed, I still tried to justify my poetic choices. In my offline group, I would never do this! I don't even explain what my poems are about, or what I'm trying to say, because I think it's ultimately pointless for a poet to say anything about a poem when getting critique. Why should I care if someone "gets" my poem, and if they don't, don't I need to know that? 

I think we all write poems for different reasons, so it's hard to critique someone without that information. Honestly, many of the poems here I don't really "get" and many in my offline group I don't "get", so I don't even know how to comment. I don't want to put my aesthetics onto someone else's poem. And I don't really believe that there are concrete rules to writing poetry...it really is just what works! Does it seem to be "together". Does it seem intelligent, or emotional, or honest, or do parts seem "off voice" or out of place. 

I think it would be nice to suggest some kind of guidelines for giving and accepting critique. I'm not sure if we all have had enough workshopping experience to know what some good guidelines are. Things like giving positive feedback and then giving critique. Or, accepting all critique without trying to justify the poem. People will still get upset from time to time, but the more of us that are clear about our reasons for critique and the methods for critique will make it much more unlikely.

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## hillwalker

> I find the accusation of the 'unpleasant lot' astounding. I have met and read the work of many characters on here, but only one unpleasant through acts of plagiarism.


There is more than one way of being unpleasant on here. Perhaps a quick check over our PMs during the last 24hrs - and subsequent postings by a number of other writers recycling what was discussed in confidence might shed some light on my personal feelings regarding 'constructive criticism'.

H

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## Delta40

> There is more than one way of being unpleasant on here. Perhaps a quick check over our PMs during the last 24hrs - and subsequent postings by a number of other writers recycling what was discussed in confidence might shed some light on my personal feelings regarding 'constructive criticism'.
> 
> H


There are definitely many ways of being unpleasant Hill. However, some of those postings are simply about letting off steam before dropping it and moving on - they're not ground in stone.

----------


## Haunted

> Another reason I don't reply is if the posting is riddled _with a great number_ of spelling and grammatical errors, such as using a lower case "i" for the word "I." It seems to me that if the member wants feedback for his or her work, it would be better to show a little more respect not only to the readers but to the language itself.


Aunt, I don't want to take you on, just your inconsistencies.

Isn't mispelling and grammatical errors a criticism? Then why didnt you tell the poster?

(btw using "i" instead if "I" is a poetic technique. Don't tell me you don't know that. )




> If the posting is on an topic that has already been done to death, and most likely better, over the course of several centuries of Western literature, I probably won't take time to read it, nor if the posting is heavy with abstractions and
> clichés.


Isn't cliches and abstractions and what not a valid criticism too? 

Why be selective if your true intentions is to help others write better?





> But to reiterate the point of the posting that opened this thread: Let's try not to lose any members who contribute so much to the LitNet. One way to keep them is by making an effort to make the Personal Poetry Forum better.


Why didn't you comment directly in respective threads, saying: "your poem is soooo mediocre". 

Why did you do it so publicly and condemn so many? Because you didn't want to bother to give individual criticisms like you said we should do?

There's nothing that offends me more than hypocrisy and cultural pretense. 

Sorry but damage has been done.

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## PrinceMyshkin

> I agree that this thread has brought up some important ideas. 
> 
> I am part of a writing group offline, and I'm even uncomfortable making suggestions there. Sometimes I don't feel that I get what the poet's goals are, I don't get the techniques they are using. Other times, I have seen people take criticism and refute every piece that was given. I did something really bad the other day on my blog on here with a poem I wrote. TheFifthElement was kind enough to give me critique, and even though I said I kind of agreed, I still tried to justify my poetic choices. In my offline group, I would never do this! I don't even explain what my poems are about, or what I'm trying to say, because I think it's ultimately pointless for a poet to say anything about a poem when getting critique. Why should I care if someone "gets" my poem, and if they don't, don't I need to know that? 
> 
> I think we all write poems for different reasons, so it's hard to critique someone without that information. Honestly, many of the poems here I don't really "get" and many in my offline group I don't "get", so I don't even know how to comment. I don't want to put my aesthetics onto someone else's poem. And I don't really believe that there are concrete rules to writing poetry...it really is just what works! Does it seem to be "together". Does it seem intelligent, or emotional, or honest, or do parts seem "off voice" or out of place. 
> 
> I think it would be nice to suggest some kind of guidelines for giving and accepting critique. I'm not sure if we all have had enough workshopping experience to know what some good guidelines are. Things like giving positive feedback and then giving critique. Or, accepting all critique without trying to justify the poem. People will still get upset from time to time, but the more of us that are clear about our reasons for critique and the methods for critique will make it much more unlikely.


Your response is an example of one of the reasons I'm on here. It is at once so vulnerable and so honest. Though I suspect I'm much older than you and have taught creative writing classes, I confess that I too don't always 'get' what a poem is saying. I feel humiliated by that at times and it might keep me from commenting, but there are so many different ways or levels to 'get' a poem, that a terrific line-break might do it for me, an image I could never have coined myself, the sense of someone grappling with an emotion - even if they don't get the better of it.

In the end, poetry, for me, is about diversity, idiosyncrasy, anarchy, daring to say in public what one is almost afraid or ashamed to think to one's self.

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## PrinceMyshkin

After I reported the general them of this post to my older son, he sent me this quote:

*"Very few friendships can survive your saying: 'I like you but I don't like your poems.' Much better to say: 'I don't like you but I like your poems.'"* 
Ian Hamiliton

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## MarkBastable

I think I can survive without a friendship so fragile that it can't survive the criticism of what one of the friends presents for general consumption.

What this really comes down to is that people here tend to fall into two camps:

those who think that the role of LiNetters is to encourage their fellows to write, which tends to mean avoiding negative criticismthose who think that negative criticism is in itself encouraging, and that a general 'yay you!' approach to encouragement is no help at all in the long run


Me, I don't offer criticism when I think the work is not good enough to salvage, and I don't offer criticism when I think the work is so accomplished that the writer can figure it out for himself. I tend to offer criticism when I think there's something there to which my criticism - pro or con - might contribute.

But the truth is, most people who post their writing to a forum like this do not want to be told what people think. They just want to be told that people enjoyed it.

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## Skia

My God. Please get over it now, things are getting _slightly_ out of hand...

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## AuntShecky

This is the last reply I will post to this particular thread.

1. I brought up the issue simply because some of our exemplary members were leaving for the reason that the personal poetry thread had diminished in quality.


2. If you read the original posting opening this thread, _you will not find a personal attack on any specific member of the LitNet._

3. What I said about spelling and grammatical errors still stands. (By the bye, I am well aware of e.e. cummings and his use of lower-case letters. He was the first to use that device, but in the six decades or so since his revolutionary poetry appeared, there have been so many bad imitations of his work --almost as many imitations as for Hemingway and Raymond Carver in the short story realm-- that now the lower case "i" looks passé and pretentious. When I see a lower case "i" used in place of "I", it makes me believe either the writer wants to assume a mask of modesty or else doesn't know how to use the shift key. Another aspect of cummings' work which may surprise you. Take his broken-up lines and scan them --
he often used iambic pentameter!)

4. One of the criticisms about my criticism is that I hadn't responded to his or her work. If you really, really,_ really_ want me to read your work, send me a PM with the link to your single thread of poetry. Assuming that you would like a critique and not merely praise, the caveat is that I would want to do a good job, and that takes time.

OK?

----------


## Skia

> 1. I brought up the issue simply because some of our exemplary members were leaving for the reason that the personal poetry thread had diminished in quality.


So what? I love to see people's work improve over time  :Smile:  Including mine  :Smile: 




> 2. If you read the original posting opening this thread, you will not find a personal attack on any specific member of the LitNet.


I understand. I see no personal attack in your words written.



> 3. What I said about spelling and grammatical errors still stands.


You can only learn through making mistakes.



> 4. If you really, really, really want me to read your work, send me a PM with the link to your single thread of poetry.


*Couldn't care less... there are many many many other poets on LitNet that I would love to critique my work.*

----------


## Haunted

> One of the criticisms about my criticism is that I hadn't responded to his or her work. If you really, really,_ really_ want me to read your work, send me a PM with the link to your single thread of poetry. Assuming that you would like a critique and not merely praise, the caveat is that I would want to do a good job, and that takes time.


*Couldn't care less either.* I received enough useful comments from people who care about my writing. My challenge to you to comment on my work is not a request to you, because I know you wouldn't. It's only meant to show that while you tell people how they should comment, you offer nothing. 





> I brought up the issue simply because some of our exemplary members were leaving for the reason that the personal poetry thread had diminished in quality.


As someone else pointed out, quality is subjective. So is mediocre. By not singling out anyone, you categorially put down everyone.

----------


## MarkBastable

> [B]
> As someone else pointed out, quality is subjective. .


Only above a certain level of competence is quality subjective. Otherwise you'd have to say that this...

_I have a cat that's fat.
I aren't happy with that._

may, subjectively, be as good as this....

_Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?
Thou art more lovely and more temperate._


And if you say that, then there's no shared basis at all for the discussion of poetry.


Thing is, there _are_ objective and shared standards. The debate is only about where they kick in.

----------


## Haunted

> _I have a cat that's fat.
> I aren't happy with that._


Not all that creative but then it depends on who writes it. If it's from a youngster with English as a second language, I would praise them. 

AND I happened to love fat cats...

I enjoyed Shakespeare but if someone tries to write like him with rhymes and thee this thou that, I tend not to like it but I wouldn't come out and say it's mediocre and it's responsible for driving people away.

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## Skia

Ah - If my Seven year old sister wrote :
*I have a cat that's fat.
I aren't happy with that.*

I would be tremendously happy! I would be proud of her creativity  :Smile:

----------


## Scheherazade

As someone who regularly reads (more or less) all the poems posted on the Literature Network, I would like to add some of my own thoughts.

I do not think Aunty's post is personally offensive to anyone... And being someone who enjoys reading "written word" in many different formats, I also believe we should all be able to say why we find something is "excellent", "good" or "not so good". 

As for the term "mediocre"... The number of objections to this makes me wonder: What is it that we are objecting to? Surely we do not believe that everything we produce is excellent and, yes, at times, they can be "mediocre" or even less than so. And if we accept this, why should we be upset that what is "mediocre" should be called just that? If both "excellent" and "mediocre" receive the same feedback and the same "bravo", would you be able to consider any criticism offered genuine? I wouldn't be. We don't always have to produce "superb" poetry but, at least, we can draw a distinction while offering feedback.

I think it was Hillwalker who, at one point, mentioned that some comments merely addressing the topic the poem deals with -rather than the poetic elements involved. I very much agree with this. No doubt; the subject matter is an integral part of poetry but just because a poem is dealing with an important/interesting subject, it does not deserve, an "Outstanding!"

This, of course, brings us to the issue of what we consider "outstanding". Our interpretations of "good poetry" might be different; however, it is the beauty of posting on a public forum like this: We get to hear the thoughts of people who do not know us personally. And if you really don't like what they have to say about your poems, it is much easier to ignore them! 

 :Smilewinkgrin:

----------


## Scheherazade

*Please note that Personal Poetry section of the Forum is indeed 
for receiving and giving feedback on the poems posted.
 
If you are unwilling to hear negative as well the positive comments others might make, 
please refrain from posting in this section of the Forum.

You can, however, showcase your work in your blog without having to risk receiving any feedback.


Please also post your opinions on this issue in this thread only. 

Any posts that make repeated allusions to this discussions in other threads 
(as well as the personal or off-topic comments)
will be removed without further notice.*

----------


## NikolaiI

> As someone who regularly reads (more or less) all the poems posted on the Literature Network, I would like to add some of my own thoughts.
> 
> I do not think Aunty's post is personally offensive to anyone... And being someone who enjoys reading "written word" in many different formats, I also believe we should all be able to say why we find something is "excellent", "good" or "not so good".


Why do you not think it was? A group of poets was called an "unpleasant lot" who have been driving away better poets by -their excessive bad poetry - sorry, if bad was not explicit, it was certainly implicit - along with the suggestion that they read some good poetry to get a clue as to what poetry actually is. 

I'm not saying we should drag the thing out, I'm with Dafy and Jerry who say we should just be done with it - in fact my main thought with my second post here was that thought, that we can all just let it go. But I don't see one can think no one was hurt or offended by everything. At least 3 or 4 people have been hurt or offended enough to almost leave. So it's like just a tiny little bit of salt in the wound to have everyone pretending no one was hurt or if they were, it didn't matter at all.

But posting poems, ah yes that is enough to make people run away from the forum.

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## Scheherazade

> Why do you not think it was? A group of poets was called an "unpleasant lot" who have been driving away better poets by their excessive bad poetry


That was not Aunty. 


> along with the suggestion that they read some good poetry to get a clue as to what poetry actually is.


I don't see why this suggestion should offend anyone; what's more, I think it is a great idea. I'd recommend someone who is trying to be an artist to examine the works of different painters; they make budding gymnasts watch the routines of experienced ones; when I want to learn how to cook a particular dish, I try as many different versions as possible so that I know what I really like and use a recipe that will give me a similar result. Despite being a teacher for many years, I still observe other teachers, attend training programmes and study educational books to improve my skills as a teacher.

Why shouldn't an aspiring poet read other poets' works to develop a better understanding of poetry?

And I sincerely do hope no one will leave the Forum because they do not agree with someone else's suggestions on how to improve their writing and the Personal Poetry Section.

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## NikolaiI

> That was not Aunty. I don't see why this suggestion should offend anyone; what's more, I think it is a great idea. I'd recommend someone who is trying to be an artist to examine the works of different painters; they make budding gymnasts watch the routines of experienced ones; when I want to learn how to cook a particular dish, I try as many different versions as possible so that I know what I really like and use a recipe that will give me a similar result.
> 
> Why shouldn't an aspiring poet read other poets' works to develop a better understanding of poetry?


On the first, you are right. 

On the second, you are absolutely right. Reading poetry is very important to learn about it, how to be a great poet. Reading a lot of it, reading the good poets in depth, and memorizing poetry, no one's disputing that. But when you couple it with saying that all the poems of this group are so bad they are ruining the quality of Lit-net, and they've run off some good poets who got so sick of how low the quality has gotten - then it isn't a good time to give all your advice to how to get better at poetry.

And no - Aunt's post didn't say that they were an unpleasant lot. Nor did see she give an example of the kind of poetry we should expect to see, if these people keep posting the same quality of poetry they are now - Hill did that.

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## Haunted

> I do not think Aunty's post is personally offensive to anyone...




No? If this is not condescending, I don't know what is:





> Same with reading verse, some of which is so abstract and ponderous that it's similar to what Thomas Merton said about reading the newspaper --a penance....
> 
> But I strongly suggest that you have some idea of what a poem is...




How about this:




> Of the latter, I have the unmistakable impression not so much that *these young writers* haven't spent enough time writing but that they clearly haven't spent enough time reading good poetry....
> 
> most of the offerings in the personal poetry do tend to be "mediocre" in the sense that they are written by....who are generally *young*


That does narrow it down to being quite personal, don't you think?
I'm not a young writer but I'm always with the underdog.

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## Bar22do

> Why do you not think it was? A group of poets was called an "unpleasant lot" who have been driving away better poets by -their excessive bad poetry - sorry, if bad was not explicit, it was certainly implicit - along with the suggestion that they read some good poetry to get a clue as to what poetry actually is. 
> 
> I'm not saying we should drag the thing out, I'm with Dafy and Jerry who say we should just be done with it - in fact my main thought with my second post here was that thought, that we can all just let it go. But I don't see one can think no one was hurt or offended by everything. At least 3 or 4 people have been hurt or offended enough to almost leave. So it's like just a tiny little bit of salt in the wound to have everyone pretending no one was hurt or if they were, it didn't matter at all.
> 
> But posting poems, ah yes that is enough to make people run away from the forum.



Just to repeat and get this one straight. I called “unpleasant lot” only that group of people who, for a long time (and it was utterly unpleasant), completely *strayed from poetry* and *carelessly* used/occupied the Personal Poetry Forum for endless chatting and familiarities (while there is a place for that elsewhere on the site), *at the expense* of other people, interested in sharing poetry on a poetry forum. 
So it had nothing to do with the assumptions (mainly projections) it was accused of.

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## Buh4Bee

Boo! Boo! I shake a fist at the original post. The quality of writing may have diminished, but I have seen mediocre poets realize they can write good poetry from criticism and support from those who respond over time. If we change it/ make it over, we may lose potential talent. I am sorry that prominent members feel they are above the ripples of the present current. Boo!

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## qimissung

I don't think that's what she's saying, jersea, at all. I thought you of all people might have understood her point.

AuntShecky is not out of line nor is she wrong, and to all of you, she is not singling you out. She merely wants what all teachers want: for you to think, question yourself, grow.

And we both know you can do that.

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## TheFifthElement

> Nor did see she give an example of the kind of poetry we should expect to see, if these people keep posting the same quality of poetry they are now - Hill did that.


Not really. He was quite specific in discussing the nature of the comments, not the poetry. I thought hed made that quite clear, but the quotes below should help to make that clearer if it wasnt already. As far as I can see hillwalker has been nothing but complementary about the poetry, for example: 




> It's not just about the definition of 'mediocre'* because *there are very few postings on here that one feels would have been better left in the drawer.*
> It's about the reason why we post on here





> *There are some marvellous, aspiring writers still developing their craft and testing the waters on here* - they deserve more than just some dumbed-down second-rate applause masquerading as camaraderie.





> Personally just having it on display is a pointless exercise, but perhaps a forum could be started for those who do not wish to have their work criticised.


I dont see why theres a bit problem with that. I doubt that anyone wants to see an end to friendly chatter and camaraderie but I doubt that anyone wants the poetry to be lost either. All hillwalker seems to be saying is be wary of turning the personal poetry section into a social club in which the poetry takes second place. It's about striking a balance. Is that really such a terrible thing to ask for?

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## symphony

I could not have said more than what Thefifthelement and Hillwalker and Qimissung have already said so far. Knowing a bit about Aunt's honest sincerity in the posts she makes, I would definitely say her post was not meant to offend any of the young poets here, but to encourage a bit more time and thought behind the posts one makes in this forum. That will ensure that the poems get more sincere reviews where deserved, as well as keep a difference between this and the General Chat forum.

P.S. Just thought I'd add that I too am a young enough (?) poster here and have loved this forum for several years now primarily for the responses I get- which have been warm, sincere and constructive. When I was 16 and posted here anything I wrote that looked like a poem to me (I haven't changed much if you come to think about it...  :Biggrin:  ), I got enough thumbs-ups to keep me posting, but also, enough frowns to keep me trying to improve.

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## NikolaiI

> Not really. He was quite specific in discussing the nature of the comments, not the poetry. I thought hed made that quite clear, but the quotes below should help to make that clearer if it wasnt already. As far as I can see hillwalker has been nothing but complementary about the poetry, for example: 
> 
> I dont see why theres a bit problem with that. I doubt that anyone wants to see an end to friendly chatter and camaraderie but I doubt that anyone wants the poetry to be lost either. All hillwalker seems to be saying is be wary of turning the personal poetry section into a social club in which the poetry takes second place. It's about striking a balance. Is that really such a terrible thing to ask for?


Two things. First, did you not happen to read the second part of the post your 1st and 3rd quotes were from? It was disgusting and insulting. I was shocked to see someone like Hill do something like that, but I at least didn't ignore it. It's a pretty seriously gross thing to post - and it's implication is ...um... very less than complimentary. So perhaps I am getting it wrong, can you tell me who he's directing that too that I should think it's just a desire for poetry to be in balance here? Sometimes you have to knock them down to size? I was insulted to have read it, coming in the accusatory tone of everything else.

Second - 




> It's not just about the definition of 'mediocre'* because there are very few postings on here that one feels would have been better left in the drawer.
> It's about the reason why we post on here


Interesting - someone who I won't name said almost the same thing..._ It's not just about saying people's work is mediocre, it's the accusation that it drove people away  blame and guilt  and dictating to us that we need to critique other's work when sometimes we just want to express how the poem makes us feel and show our appreciation._

But you can't acknowledge that anyone that got really hurt by this had any valid reasons whatever? Why is that?

Anyway - that's what makes it all so absurd. The accusatory tone - because the reason people have been posting here doesn't match up to what hill and the rest of you think that reason should be, others just couldn't bear it and so they left. What?

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## qimissung

NikoliI, you are protective of your friends, but as an outsider on this there is nothing condescending about what Hill or Fifth has said. It is about balance. They can do what they are doing in the general chat area. Why is that wrong?

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## Alexander III

I think when replying to poems one must always be truthful yet not rude. For example If one thinks a poem is terrible, one should reply so, but in a eloquent manner, and one should also find a point, a beam of light which one deems to have been a good point and point out to the poet this good point, and why the rest was bad. Quite frankly if you don't want the truth or cant handle the truth you should not post your poems.

Likewise if one likes a poem, replying "I love it" only is just as bad as replying " I hate it" Say what was it that you liked, and try to fins a point that you didn't like or thought could be improved and point it out to the poet.

But I must say that complaing that the majority of the poetry is mediocre is ridiculous. I mean the entire purpose of the forum section is for amateur and inexperienced writers to develop their craft. 

Sincerity is the best policy, and for those who found aunt scheckies post insulting..."thou doth protest to much" a nice quote from Macbeth, showing that he who protests to much is normally guilty of what aunt shecky defined superficial and inadequate response to poems on the forum.

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## hillwalker

> First, did you not happen to read the second part of the post your 1st and 3rd quotes were from? It was disgusting and insulting. I was shocked to see someone like Hill do something like that, but I at least didn't ignore it. It's a pretty seriously gross thing to post - and it's implication is ...um... very less than complimentary. So perhaps I am getting it wrong, can you tell me who he's directing that to


Offensive. In poor taste. Exactly. The intention was to shock us out of our complacency - because there is a vociferous minority (of one it would appear) on here who would delight in offering such nonsense for us to read - because it came to them spontaneously and so is beyond criticism.

My comment was aimed at this minority and his descision to wear 'mediocre' as some kind of badge of honour. Personally I have found this site a great boon in helping me develop as a writer - learning through my mistakes and from constructive criticism from other writers who have my depest respect.

If all I had been fed were false bouquets of flattery and nothing more I would probably have moved on sooner than later. That others are considering doing the same now is a sad reflection on how we are all allowing this forum to change into something it was never designed to be. It's our forum - I hope we have saved it from oblivion.

H

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## Buh4Bee

> I don't think that's what she's saying, jersea, at all. I thought you of all people might have understood her point.
> 
> AuntShecky is not out of line nor is she wrong, and to all of you, she is not singling you out. She merely wants what all teachers want: for you to think, question yourself, grow.
> 
> And we both know you can do that.


I understand her point quite clearly! I however, do not sit with young writers in their rooms and time how long they are attacking their "craft". Who is to say that these young people can do better or that they are lazy? 

I agree that there should be a common standard or level of expectation, but to discourage is not necessarily productive either. I am sorry we are losing good poets! For this I am sorry!

Maybe people should have a thread where they put all their poetry and we can see them grow. I feel this is a plausible and productive idea.

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## PrinceMyshkin

> I think when replying to poems one must always be truthful yet not rude. For example If one thinks a poem is terrible, one should reply so, but in a eloquent manner, and one should also find a point, a beam of light which one deems to have been a good point and point out to the poet this good point, and why the rest was bad. Quite frankly if you don't want the truth or cant handle the truth you should not post your poems.
> 
> Likewise if one likes a poem, replying "I love it" only is just as bad as replying " I hate it" Say what was it that you liked, and try to fins a point that you didn't like or thought could be improved and point it out to the poet.
> 
> But I must say that complaing that the majority of the poetry is mediocre is ridiculous. I mean the entire purpose of the forum section is for amateur and inexperienced writers to develop their craft. 
> 
> Sincerity is the best policy, and for those who found aunt scheckies post insulting..."thou doth protest to much" a nice quote from Macbeth, showing that he who protests to much is normally guilty of what aunt shecky defined superficial and inadequate response to poems on the forum.


The foregoing is the sort of civilized, thoughtful comment that I look forward to here, both in this thread and in the responses to various poems, my own and those of others.

When I taught Creative Writing classes, I tried to discourage two kinds of responses from the participants to the work of their fellow workshoppers:

1) Hostile comments prompted by competitiveness: it is innate in virtually all writers to be competitive with other writers; and

2) Condescension. I discouraged students from saying _I like this poem,/short story_ but, instead, to say _I like this or that aspect of this poem,/short story_ 

In a similar vein, calling anyone's work "mediocre" is both elitist and contemptuous unless, with respect to the actual meaning of that word, you cite the standards you are applying.

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## MarkBastable

So is it that

a) we don't believe any work is _ever_ mediocre - the word just has no meaning when applied to art

or

b) we do think that some work may be mediocre, but we don't feel we should ever say so?

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## hillwalker

I hope not.

It's just that some on here wish to attain mediocrity - and gain praise for never striving to improve.

Others are so lacking in self-confidence that they feel they must be mediocre - but that's fine because at least that way they 'belong' to the above clique. Which is unfortunate but at least it can be remedied.

And finally, most of us who regularly crit on here do so to provide meaningful feedback so that the writer knows what parts of their work we admire - and which parts require reworking.
The truly mediocre I don't comment on - most times because the writer shows he or she has put little if any effort to create anything of worth. And those who choose mediocrity as their genre (and prefer not to have their work commented upon) will similarly be ignored.

H

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## Hawkman

As this thread still seems to be active (and contentious) I suppose I’d better throw my 2 penneth into the pot. But before I do I wish to make it plain that I am not going to get involved in any personal arguments with people who may not happen to agree with me, or who insist on being personally offended by what I have to say. I am merely stating my position on the matter. You may agree, or you may not. In the words of the late, great, Peter Cook, “It is entirely a matter for you.”

When people join the forum they are required to read and agree to conform to the rules/guidelines of the forum. These quite clearly state that multiple daily postings of fresh threads in the PP strand (and others) should be avoided. It is a matter of common courtesy to comply with this. Every time you post a thread you bump someone else’s down. Repeated failure to adhere to the rule is selfish, arrogant and ill mannered. Nothing says you can’t make multiple postings in a day, providing that you do so in an existing thread. I’m fairly certain that there is also a stipulation about confining comments in the poetry threads to comments on the poems. The forum already provides a section for non-specific chat, and the personal and visitor messenger facility is surely the right place for private conversations.

The complaint against multiple postings and off-topic replies was certainly valid. And if new members joining the forum haven’t taken the time to read the stickies at the heads of the strands (or choose to ignore them) then they only have themselves to blame if someone objects.

I would agree, though, that the standard of poetry is dropping. This is, perhaps, inevitable when there is a massive influx of new (and young or inexperienced) members and older or more experienced hands choose to move on. Really one can only judge them over time. Do they listen to constructive (and intelligent) criticism and does their work improve? Personally, I’m depressed when I see a talented writer reject justifiable, constructive and analytical criticism as a personal attack. When this happens I cease to comment on their work. 

However, mindless positive comments seem to be the only response to just about anything posted, no matter how trite or poorly executed. I wonder, should one judge a poem’s merit in inverse proportion to the number of viewings it attracts? (I can’t tell you how much I long not to read another, ‘Wow’, or ‘amazing’.) Other responses to this thread have made excellent suggestions about how to critique so I will not dwell on the point.

It should be remembered that poetry is a form of communication. The rules of grammar apply as much to poetry as to prose. It should also be remembered that this is an English language site and if you wish to make yourself understood in English, then for the most part, you need to adhere to the rules which are commonly understood. Poor grammar, and a refusal to employ punctuation, inhibit communication between the author and the reader. This was pointed out to me when I started writing and I willingly pass it on. 

There are exceptions in the grammar rule, if one wishes to parody the colloquial speech of an individual for instance. However, just getting on your high horse and claiming that using a lower case I for the personal pronoun is, “a recognised, poetic technique”, doesn’t make it good practice, any more than inverting syntax or employing archaisms (except when parodying). Neither is it contemporary. People were doing it more than a hundred years ago, so it is in itself an archaic practice.

When I joined this site I was welcomed and encouraged and my standard of writing rapidly improved. I experimented with different forms and subjects and accepted, willingly, the guidance of members like Auntie and B/V, (and many others, too numerous to mention, but you know who you are, so thanks) but made my own qualitative judgements of critiques offered. But then I had a substantial grounding in literature to start off with, with the knowledge of more contemporary poets being my Achilles heel. I would recommend all new or inexperienced members to experiment with form and subject, and not get into the rut of writing only about one subject in free verse.

I certainly can’t bleat about playfulness. Far too much of my output has been irreverent and playful. However, I would hope that all would agree that my offerings have been liberally laced with both wit and some degree of skill, whilst not being handled objectionably.

So, to close, I would urge you all to play fair, keep writing, read and learn what you can and do your utmost to be all that you can be. You can be funny, witty, serious or sad. If you really want to learn, then ask and listen. I will always happy to read an honest effort.

Live and be well.

The Hawk.

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## Haunted

Hill, I hope you'd take back what you said in the last 2 posts. They are hurtful.





> AuntShecky is not out of line nor is she wrong, and to all of you, she is not singling you out. She merely wants what all teachers want: for you to think, question yourself, grow.


Qim, you need to read between the lines. Sometimes people give the impression they're doing everyone a favor but in fact they are hiding a slight, and you can see that clearly that some remarks are unequivocally condescending.

She said people should critique more indepth. If you read the responses in any threads, most responses are quite specific. They are not generic compliments. So what she said isn't entirely true. 

And while she said critiques is what help mediocre poets, she offers up only one or two comments, so I found no sincerity in those words. As far as I'm concerned the original post has very little credibility.





> It should be remembered that poetry is a form of communication. The rules of grammar apply as much to poetry as to prose. It should also be remembered that this is an English language site and if you wish to make yourself understood in English, then for the most part, you need to adhere to the rules which are commonly understood. Poor grammar, and a refusal to employ punctuation, inhibit communication between the author and the reader. This was pointed out to me when I started writing and I willingly pass it on. 
> 
> There are exceptions in the grammar rule, if one wishes to parody the colloquial speech of an individual for instance. However, just getting on your high horse and claiming that using a lower case I for the personal pronoun is, “a recognised, poetic technique”, doesn’t make it good practice, any more than inverting syntax or employing archaisms (except when parodying). Neither is it contemporary. People were doing it more than a hundred years ago, so it is in itself an archaic practice.


There is something called poetic license. 

Lack of grammar or punctuation is a technique and also a way of communicating a message.

Also, we can be experimental, can't we?

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## zoolane

This last post of this certain thread.

This reason why I join the web site.

I will more confidence with my ability as amateur writer with my friends help and advice from this site. I will develop my unique style as gain more experiences. I will be better person and role model for daughters.

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## MarkBastable

> Sometimes people give the impression they're doing everyone a favor but in fact they are hiding a slight, and you can see that clearly that some remarks are unequivocally condescending.


This is true. But equally, sometimes people see a slight where none was intended, and when that happens, there's absolutely nothing anyone can do to convince them they're mistaken.

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## hillwalker

> Hill, I hope you'd take back what you said in the last 2 posts. They are hurtful.


*Haunted* - I certainly did not intend to hurt you or any other regular poster on here - and I hope you realise that.

My comments were aimed at those who have been brainwashed over the last couple of days into believing they are '_mediocre_' - those who have been conned into believing it's only possible to be '_mediocre_' or '_elitist_' - those who have been misled by a divisive knee-jerk campaign into accepting that perhaps they are not held in such high esteem by most of their fellow-members when in fact the opposite is true.

I'm trying to say is 'Why settle for 'mediocrity'? Surely we deserve more than that.

---

You are obviously unaware of the background to the posting of certain sarcastic comments placed on here late on Thursday night. These were immediately followed by the posting of a 'witty' poem (coincidentally after I replied to a PM request to crit a certain piece and also pass comment on the perceived change of atmosphere on LitNet).

I reckon having your integrity and trust abused in this way is more 'hurtful' than a comment intended to promote harmony and self-respect.

The poem in question also mentioned another member in passing - which I felt was inappropriate and ill-advised given the context and spirit in which it was written.

In conclusion I have said nothing on here that I regret saying - we all come here in order to appreciate each other's work, praise their efforts where deserved and offer helpful advice.

None of us are obliged to critique everything - but when someone begs me to crit a poem then dismisses my comments by announcing that the poem was thrown together in five minutes and wasn't intended for analysis I do wonder what the point of posting it was in the first place.

If you still find my attitude offends I will be happy to elaborate further via PM. But this thread is getting a little heated and I think it's time we draw a line under the whole sorry incident.

H

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## PrinceMyshkin

> This last post of this certain thread.
> 
> This reason why I join the web site.
> 
> I will more confidence with my ability as amateur writer with my friends help and advice from this site. I will develop my unique style as gain more experiences. I will be better person and role model for daughters.


May I say that with the courage and honesty of a reply like this you are *already* providing a good role model for your daughters. Bless you and them!

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## Haunted

> *Haunted* - I certainly did not intend to hurt you or any other regular poster on here - and I hope you realise that.


Thanks Hill for explaining. No I'm not hurt personally but it just hurts me to know some people here are marginalized by how the original post characterized them.

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## JuniperWoolf

You guys are being a bit sensitive. All anyone is asking is that you try harder. The poems that are posted here aren't as good as they could be, you can do better. If nothing else, then at least pass them through a spell check (I know, I know... incorrect grammar and spelling is "an artistic technique", right?).

I used to love going through the personal poetry forum, I read almost everything. It kind of sucks now, too touchy-feely and polite.

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## hack

sorry about the mediocracy; its kind of a style!

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## Bar22do

Dear* Auntie*,

Thanks to your inspired initiative (then helped by *hill*, *Scheh*, *MarkB*, *qim*, *TheFifth*, *hawk* and some others) the chatting has stopped, spelling and punctuation are now carefully checked, the general level has gone dramatically up, the comments are focussed and a pleasure to read! And *Scheh* too has begun to post comments and share her knowledge, so long behind the screen!

Shows how confident you must have felt about people's possibilities as poets and writers. 
It was a blessed reminder.

I think it's only natural to thank you here for your action, so beneficial to this Forum's health. 

I'm truly impressed to see how fast things can change and how the latent qualities and talents blossom already! 

Thanks so much, *Auntie*, but also whoever else offered a helpful hand and a constructive thought here. 

Best - Bar

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## AuntShecky

Thank you, Bar, and to everyone who contributed to this thread. I hope those who have abandoned ship will reconsider. The reason for the posting was to "right the ship,"so to speak, and since that may indeed be happening, let us put the matter at rest.

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## Delta40

I'm so glad this discussion came to an end. I read a lovely article this morning and I have googled it for my own entertainment. I want to say that I will never be negative about mediocrity again! The Itchiball Prize for Particularly Bad Art is a great idea! Check out the criteria to enter.

http://www.mopba.org/?page_id=8

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