# Reading > Philosophical Literature >  What other people think

## Dark Muse

I posted this quotation upon my blog, and it had stimulated a lot of interesting commentary and differing points of view upon the subject so it was suggested to me by Scher that it could make an interesting group discussion and I figured why not? 

The quote is as follows: 




> What other people think of me is none of my business


I heard the quote on the radio, and the person who stated it said she got it from Flowers for Algernon.

The discursion upon my blog brought up the idea if one does in fact have a responsibility of some sort to consider what other people think of them in relation to their actions, and how the react to other people, and if there is some sort of generally responsibility to society regarding how one is perceived. 

And the practicality or impracticality of truly abiding by the sentiment behind the quote. 

As a misanthrope I myself do not feel any true social reasonability to the general populace and do not truly care what others make think of me. I often adjusted others by my belief that if someone else gets offended by something I say, it is their problem not mine.

I have always had an apathy for what anyone else might be inclined to think about me and while I do not go out of my way to be rude, I do not think I have an obligation to protect the feelings of other people.

I just don't do fake nice but on the other side, nor do I expect other people to play nice with me if they are not sincere.

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## billl

As far as not wanting people to think ill of me, well there's limits on that. For example, a good manager has to draw the line on some things, even though being generally liked/respected is probably a good style for most people doing that job. Another example: there are times someone might see me do something out of its larger context--e.g. putting a magazine back in the wrong place in a bookstore after I had picked it up from the same wrong place a minute earlier--and in those cases it would often be overdoing it to explain things or hunt around for some distant magazine location. Finally, there are times when people just have a different opinion than mine, and while it might be good to avoid bringing certain things up at certain times, there are unavoidable moments when "me being me" might strike certain other people negatively.

However, I think that having empathy for other people is important, and sometimes that might mean I would have to speculate about how another person feels about me in some situations (e.g. I wouldn't talk about old times too explicitly around an ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend).

Anyhow, when I read the quote, what I immediately took it to be referring to is the fact that I have no right to probe, talk around, demand, or in any other way at all get at another person's honest (or even dishonest, experimental) thoughts about me, if they don't want to share them. I could ask, directly or indirectly maybe, if it seemed important, but then that's that. We do as we do, and the consequences and other people's reactions reach us, if at all, only via the sovereign actions of the other people themselves, and the vagaries of subsequent events. If someone wants to be polite, but secretly think I have a bad haircut, or am a snob about wine, or treated their friend the way that their friend characterized it, etc., well, that's none of my business. I mean, I might learn about it from someone else or whatever, but in the end, a person's thoughts are a person's private affair.

It is an interesting quote, and maybe I've taken it too seriously/literally. I think it would be interesting to learn more about the context in which it was spoken.

P.S. It isn't anyone's business, but I am not much of a snob about wine. Not that it's a big deal, I just wouldn't want you to think I am. Just kidding.  :Smile:

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## hoope

You might be right , why should we care about what others think of me . 
We will behave the way we want .. Do whateva we see right .. 

*But i guess its just like how Bill said up there .. " i don't want anyone to think ill of me "*

We live in a society , in a community , among a family , friends , colleagues... We live among people . Anything we might do may affect them .. anything we say may make them conclude some ideas about us. We don't like to be in a situation that people keeps talking about us . That is why i say we should reconsider about what people around us may think .. And monitor our behavior.




> I just don't do fake nice but on the other side, nor do I expect other people to play nice with me if they are not sincere.


Me either.. i don't know how to fake others.. but as i live everyday i find out that i don't have to expect people to be as nice as i am .. the more we live the more strange things we see....

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## Scheherazade

(I will cheat and paste some parts of my reply from the blog entry)

I am not sure. 

I think it is our responsibility how we project ourselves, which leads to the way we are perceived by others. It does not mean we need to conform to others' expectations all the time but, still, if we are behaving in a certain way, then it is, to a certain degree, our "problem" how others interpret this.

I am not suggesting that we need to lose sleep over what others think of us but we cannot shake off the responsibility of it, either.

When I realise that someone is hurt by something I have said or done, I take the time to consider whether I should/could have done things differently. I can almost never shrug and say it is their problem. I try to understand and make amends if necessary.

I think putting myself under the microscope should be my first responsibility; I am responsible from my own action.

What do you do in reverse-case scenario? Do you think what you think of others does not mean anything to them?

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## Jozanny

> As a misanthrope I myself do not feel any true social reasonability to the general populace and do not truly care what others make think of me. I often adjusted others by my belief that if someone else gets offended by something I say, it is their problem not mine.


I don't think much of the fact that you keep highlighting this about yourself Dark, as I have actually hurt other people by being caustic and cutting, and had to live with it later. One of my early friends from Speakeasy was an older woman who sort of liked to nanny the boys on the site. She took the trouble to mail me used copies of the entire Dune saga, and I was mean to her for no reason anyone in their right mind would be. It was not even a case of being reactionary for a reason. I had none, and simply growled at the poor dear soul who took so much time with me.

This was maybe between 98 and 2k; it is nearly 2010 and my conscience still flogs me over this. It seems that you care enough to keep putting this up front and center to prove something that perhaps you don't need to. I don't always like the conventions of appropriate manners either, but their are some self-inflicted wounds I might have been spared by not behaving like a cur.

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## Dark Muse

*shrugs* I am who I am and people can take me or leave me. I don't conform myself to fit into any one elses idea of what I should or shouldn't do, or how I should or shouldn't act. 

And whatever people may think of me, is thier right and dosen't much concern me. 

To be quite frankly honest the only regrets I have in my dealings with other people is there are some people that I think I was too lenient with. But being a misanthrope and not caring about what society thinks of me, does not by default mean I go around willy nilly being mean to people just for the sake of it, that in itself would be more effort than I would be willing to put into the general populace, I prefer to just be left alone, and in turn keep myself isolated as much as possible. 

But I speak openly and frankly about what I think, and I don't offer false niceties. It if I am not happy about something I am not going to pretend to be, and if I don't like someone I am not going to hide it.

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## Jozanny

Okay, but what is your point in continuing to press the point? The few times I have posted with you about Chekov or Poe I thought your views had merit. I can see your attraction to Rand and considered that accordingly, but few people online actually see each other in three dimensional status.

Assuming that it is a peer thing, well, that is nothing new in terms of wanting to be on the outside of it, or experiencing alienation, and with my age and isolation I am a bit removed from the pecking order--but I do not think anything about you in terms of making a judgment about you.

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## Dark Muse

I really wasn't attempting to press the point as you put it here. I posted the quote upon my blog, with no real explanation just because I liked the quote, and I have a quotation collection on my blog, and it stimulated discussion so Scher. suggested I make the quite into a group discussion and I so no reason not to. So for posting it in the thread here, I was merely offering an explanation behind the quote or at least my views of it to aid in the stimulation of a conversation about different ways of perceiving the quote and its validity or invalidity. 

I cannot just avoid speaking of my views where I find that they are indeed relevant to a conversation.

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## Jozanny

If my earlier post reads like I felt provoked, I suppose I was, but I am not sure about the sore point of my provocation. Something about my landlord and my recent suffering over the renovations, where what people think nearly landed me in tenant court, when I was the one taking it on the chin. As a writer, I have to care what my publishers think, if not my readers, but I guess I am in the middle, between you and Sche, because what some people see when they look at me is a handicapped woman who affronts them for not being *passive,* to use the relocation supervisor's term. I'd like nothing better than to sic a lawyer on her like a pit bull.

In CripWorld, Dark, there are a lot of paradigms which I once accepted. Not so much anymore, even within the independent living ideology which is supposed to empower me, and once did. But the cost of my battle is that I am not a person I like very much, at least on some points, like getting stout.

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## blazeofglory

Of course we all are too much obsessed with what others will think about us and at times I feel all we do are instigated by others or that we are too much obsessed with others' business more than our own. 

When we get too muchness about others reaction to what we do or behave we feel too much pressured.

Therein exactly where problems lie when we kind of totally become totally fixated by others' reactions or thoughts about what we do.

That is exactly from where problems start.

Let us live on our own unthinking about what the rest think about us.

In fact no one is perfect and unblemished, and no human' corpus is totally clean of incompleteness or flaws. It is the cover or the outer paint that gives the idea of completeness or perfection.

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## Sapphire

> What other people think of me is none of my business


I like that  :Smile:  I think it is a good thing to keep in mind, but maybe from another point of view than you all mentioned. I agree that you have to be yourself without confirming too much to others' reactions to what you do. I also think you have to keep in mind that you live in a community and thus should be very aware that your actions and sayings have an influence on other people's lives. But then again, being yourself and caring about the people around you doesn't have to be in conflict with one another  :Wink:  

But what I like from this quote is that it says it is "none of my business". People are free to think what they want. Even if what they think is "about me" - that doesn't mean I am responsible for their thinking. They perceive our sayings and actions from their own experience and won't always interpret it as we might mean it. What philosopher is it again whom says we can't perceive anything without putting our self in it? Something with filters and empirical evidence ...

I don't think it this absolute though. I mean, how we are perceived by others is ALSO influenced by them. But it is still an impression we make and we have to be held accountable for whatever we do.  :Confused:  

And if I do not care what they think and won't let my actions be influenced by their thinking - does that mean that it is none of my business? I mean, you make an impression on people and that is NONE of your business? It is YOU. You have a choice: you can choose to care or choose not to care (and anything inbetween). It is your business to make that choice... 

Ow geez, the more I think about this the harder it is to have a clear opinion  :Brickwall: . 

I like the quote, but I am not too sure whether I can agree to it fully.

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## Scheherazade

I don't think we should single out Dark Muse however much we might disagree with her on this issue simply because she is sharing how she feels.

I also do not think we can ignore the fact that our actions are our own responsibility.

Is everyone an island?

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## Dark Muse

> If my earlier post reads like I felt provoked, I suppose I was, but I am not sure about the sore point of my provocation. Something about my landlord and my recent suffering over the renovations, where what people think nearly landed me in tenant court, when I was the one taking it on the chin. As a writer, I have to care what my publishers think, if not my readers, but I guess I am in the middle, between you and Sche, because what some people see when they look at me is a handicapped woman who affronts them for not being *passive,* to use the relocation supervisor's term. I'd like nothing better than to sic a lawyer on her like a pit bull.
> 
> In CripWorld, Dark, there are a lot of paradigms which I once accepted. Not so much anymore, even within the independent living ideology which is supposed to empower me, and once did. But the cost of my battle is that I am not a person I like very much, at least on some points, like getting stout.



Speaking frankly as I am want to do, I am left sometimes with the impression that you lash out against me, or some of my views becasue of your bitterness about some of the chocies you have made for yourself in your life. Perhaps because some of my ideas reflect some of your past actions or thinking it makes an easy target, or just opens a sore spot with some of your own regrets. 

The way I choose to live my own life has no raffect upon you whatsoever. It is my right to do as I will as long as I don't break any laws in the process. So there is little since in being angry at me if I do not behave in a manner which you think I should.

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## isidro

How wonderful you are, Dark Muse, for posting such a wonderful, thought provoking idea! 

I have historically struggled between philanthropist and misanthrope but neither necessarily dictates my attention to what others think of me personally. Very lately, however, it has come to my attention that many people tend to shun the bad opinions others have of them but welcome the good ones. If we truly do not care, we also cannot care if people truly love and appreciate us, and to ignore something like that negates, in my opinion, many of the sweeter and dearer things of life. As I was suicidal for many years partly due to abuse I certainly understand the wisdom of throwing people's opinions to the side, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. 

Great thread, Dark Muse! Bravo!

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## Dark Muse

> If we truly do not care, we also cannot care if people truly love and appreciate us, and to ignore something like that negates, in my opinion, many of the sweeter and dearer things of life. As I was suicidal for many years partly due to abuse I certainly understand the wisdom of throwing people's opinions to the side, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Interesting thoughts, and for me that line acutally is a bit of a gray area. On the one hand I do not truly in retroyspect care if people like me or not. I do not make an effort to be liked, nor seek out human companionship. But I do have my small group of friends, though it was through simple chance that we met, and found things in common, and I am not a different person with them, then I am anywhere else, and they simply take me as I am, but I do have close bounds with my friends and I have I do have a certain consideration for them that I do not have for the rest of the populace. So I suppose the way I feel about it, I don't feel like I truly need to think of other people appercaiting me, but if I should so happen to find a kindered soul in another person than I won't shun it.

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## Jozanny

> Speaking frankly as I am want to do, I am left sometimes with the impression that you lash out against me, or some of my views becasue of your bitterness about some of the chocies you have made for yourself in your life. Perhaps because some of my ideas reflect some of your past actions or thinking it makes an easy target, or just opens a sore spot with some of your own regrets. 
> 
> The way I choose to live my own life has no raffect upon you whatsoever. It is my right to do as I will as long as I don't break any laws in the process. So there is little since in being angry at me if I do not behave in a manner which you think I should.


I don't think it is "lashing out" in the sense that you mean it. I have been through hell and back and have inner demons which are terrible beyond measure, and what you advertise as a shield, the anti-Christian pagan I am tough and no one can touch me braggadocio, I don't think it has been tested in real world terms, and I believe you are more of a good girl than you let on.

That might have been me once, but I have too many scars, and nothing can really rescue me from a certain world weariness that even unexpected success, or an even more unexpected romance, would relieve, and yes, that isn't your problem, but neither are you a minority who faces the prosecution of an unjust society.

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## Dark Muse

If I were to cotintue this discorse it would make a hypocrite of me  :Wink: 

So I will make no attempt to explain or justify myself. I will close only with this. 

I have made no attempts to compare myself to you, and your personal struggles, and you may perceive me and my comments however you so choose to desire.

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## Jozanny

> If I were to cotintue this discorse it would make a hypocrite of me


There is a modern philosopher, whose name escapes me at the moment, but I believe he is eastern, who says philosophy must inherently embrace  contradiction . The cited title is the best I can do on short notice, toward further study.

Since I fully embrace hypocrisy I will shoulder it for both of us :Nod: 






> ll make no attempt to explain or justify myself. I will close only with this. 
> 
> I have made no attempts to compare myself to you, and your personal struggles, and you may perceive me and my comments however you so choose to desire.


This is true; however, purity of principle for its own sake is best digested with caution, and perhaps I failed to make that point using my own experiences, or using them in a more neutral fashion. It just occurred to me that maybe you could get me some sources if I can find an editor who'd go for a new age examination of paganism. I'll jot it in my notes, as I need fresh earnings in 2010.

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## The Comedian

I kind of agree with Scher on the topic of whether other people thoughts about us are our business. They are, partially, our business. I mean, sometimes other people's thoughts about what I do or how I behave may be more accurate than my own.

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## blazeofglory

If we become too much obsessed with what others think about us we try to kind of change or dance to the tune of others.

Let us try to be what we are not what others want us to be.

Most of us try to sacrifice all our natures while becoming too much obsessed with others' expectations.

Our studies, businesses, careers, ways of livings, even beliefs are attuned what others are expectant of us.

And of course this is the reason why we are too much stressed. 

This demands of us understanding ourselves and wherein lies our happiness without marring others.

Civilization demands of us assimilation, integration and this necessitates sacrificing some of our natural tendencies. That is why today we are distancing ourselves from our own natures. 

There is too much fixations with others' businesses, and this widens a gulf between what we are and what we want to be, thus stressing out.

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## Apathy

there is a point in your life where you have to decide what you care more about; what others think of you or what you think of yourself.
If everyone hates you does that make any worse a person?
If everyone loves you does that make you
any better a person?

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## Apathy

Originally posted by Dark Muse:
"To be quite frankly honest the only regrets I have in my dealings with other people is there are some people that I think I was too lenient with. But being a misanthrope and not caring about what society thinks of me, does not by default mean I go around willy nilly being mean to people just for the sake of it, that in itself would be more effort than I would be willing to put into the general populace, I prefer to just be left alone, and in turn keep myself isolated as much as possible."

I agree, and couldn't have put it better myself... though you probably don't care what I think. :Nod:

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## Dark Muse

> I agree, and couldn't have put it better myself... though you probably don't care what I think.


Hahahahahah  :Wink:

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## soundofmusic

:Biggrin:  Brilliant quote; who said it in "Flowers...?  :Confused:  Does a misanthropist care enough about what people think to post a question about what people think about their post... :Frown:

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## Dark Muse

I have no idea who said it in flowers, if you have read my post I stated that I heard it on the radio, and the person on the radio said she got it from flowers.

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## Apathy

> If we truly do not care, we also cannot care if people truly love and appreciate us


Extremely good point, and this is where I myself am forced to draw a line, for, although I don't believe in many, many things, I do believe in Love. I think, and maybe hypocriticaly, that just because you don't care what people think, you can still care for them and that if you care for someone you can feel a certain empathy for how they feel, and can feel 'Good' when your feelings towards them are mirrored. Also, you possess enough respect for them to be careful in the way you word things, NOT TO LIE, but to take just a miniscule amount more of tentativity. :Nod:

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## blazeofglory

> Extremely good point, and this is where I myself am forced to draw a line, for, although I don't believe in many, many things, I do believe in Love. I think, and maybe hypocriticaly, that just because you don't care what people think, you can still care for them and that if you care for someone you can feel a certain empathy for how they feel, and can feel 'Good' when your feelings towards them are mirrored. Also, you possess enough respect for them to be careful in the way you word things, NOT TO LIE, but to take just a miniscule amount more of tentativity.


Of course to a certain extent we cannot afford not to care, and when it comes to love, compassion, empathy we must take care of what others have for us.

But my point here is many of our patterns of behaviors are shaped by the what others think syndrome and if we fixate too much with this we will sicken ourselves and run to negativity, surrendering therein to the expectations of others only.

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## caddy_caddy

Why do we post here then for instance ? Why don't we keep things for ourselves ? Is that only to share what we have with others?

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## Apathy

> Why do we post here then for instance ? Why don't we keep things for ourselves ? Is that only to share what we have with others?


I for one post here to have intelligent conversations, also, i do not lie about what I believe and don't care whether you love or hate my beliefs. I do however, like to listen to what you think about different subjects becauase I like to learn. :Nod:

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## caddy_caddy

completely indifferent Apathy?
Won't you feel happy and encouraged if u post a thread , a poem , a text or whatever and the LitNet said oh you are so great ., you have great ideas , oh and so and so??
At these moments we do care what the others do think of us!!
I think we don't care about what we don't like only.

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## Dark Muse

Yes I agree with apathy, even though I did not care what other people think of me, I still need some intellectual stimulation. 

And my posting on this forum is not often to talk about myself or get peoples opinions about me, it is to discuss literature. Being interested in how someone else perceives a book, story, poem, etc... is not the same thing as caring about that their thoughts about me personally is.

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## Apathy

> completely indifferent Apathy?
> Won't you feel happy and encouraged if u post a thread , a poem , a text or whatever and the LitNet said oh you are so great ., you have great ideas , oh and so and so??
> At these moments we do care what the others do think of us!!
> I think we don't care about what we don't like only.


Incorrect, firstly;
I write to solidify my thoughts so I can understand myself,
Poetry is not written to impress others, it is written as a form of catharsis.
If I posted something such as that, it is to express opinion, not to see what others think of me. And secondly; *"People in their right mind never take pride in their talents" -Harper Lee(To Kill A Mockingbird)-*

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## caddy_caddy

> Yes I agree with apathy, even though I did not care what other people think of me, I still need some intellectual stimulation. 
> 
> And my posting on this forum is not often to talk about myself or get peoples opinions about me, it is to discuss literature. Being interested in how someone else perceives a book, story, poem, etc... is not the same thing as caring about that their thoughts about me personally is.


You don't care about their " negative " thoughts . But don't you care about their " positive thoughts " of you ??Do u ignore them ? 
I don't care what others do think of me " their negative attitudes " because I do believe since I am not violtating the rules of the forum , I have right to express myself like anyone else . It's their problem if they don't like me. 
But for sure I would feel so happy if it is the other way . 
What I spoke of is our personal writings .

I didn't say we are posting here to talk about oursleves although it is not sth to be ashamed of. When you share your experience with the others , it is one way to speak about yourself . Our opinions , attitudes, and the like are KEYS to our personality. At the beginining it may be your thoughts , concepts,... not you as a person . But with time it becomes you as a person . People would like that one behind the nickname because of your ideas , opinions , talent .

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## caddy_caddy

Incorrect, firstly;
I write to solidify my thoughts so I can understand myself,
Poetry is not written to impress others, it is written as a form of catharsis.
If I posted something such as that, it is to express opinion, not to see what others think of me. And secondly; "People in their right mind never take pride in their talents" -Harper Lee(To Kill A Mockingbird)- 
I am not accusing you of anything to defend yourself. 
So if you don't care what others think of you , why are u mad at me ?

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## Dark Muse

I cannot say I truly care about their positive thoughts about me, if I did than I would not post controversial or disagreeable things, and only go along with whatever anyone else says and agree with them. 

I do not post just to try to gain approval or for the sake of seeking positive feedback, but more out of simple curiosity to see what others will say, but that is not quite the same as caring about what they say, at least not in a personal way. I am intellectually interested in the thoughts of others. But their thoughts good or bad will not have an affect upon me in my personal life. 

If I am in a discussion I generally try not to ignore any comments, positive or negative.

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## blazeofglory

In point of fact we all are a bit arrogant and want that others have a very good opinions about others. We want to exhibit our dominating or egostic dispositions and at times we want to prove what we are not. 

We want others to think we are great, rich, wise, educated, pwerful and the like.

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## Apathy

> Incorrect, firstly;
> I write to solidify my thoughts so I can understand myself,
> Poetry is not written to impress others, it is written as a form of catharsis.
> If I posted something such as that, it is to express opinion, not to see what others think of me. And secondly; "People in their right mind never take pride in their talents" -Harper Lee(To Kill A Mockingbird)- 
> I am not accusing you of anything to defend yourself. 
> So if you don't care what others think of you , why are u mad at me ?


I am not angry, I am just responding to your comment, do not take it personally.

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## Apathy

[QUOTE=Dark Muse;787382]I cannot say I truly care about their positive thoughts about me, if I did than I would not post controversial or disagreeable things, and only go along with whatever anyone else says and agree with them. 

I do not post just to try to gain approval or for the sake of seeking positive feedback, but more out of simple curiosity to see what others will say, but that is not quite the same as caring about what they say, at least not in a personal way. I am intellectually interested in the thoughts of others. But their thoughts good or bad will not have an affect upon me in my personal life. 

If I am in a discussion I generally try not to ignore any comments, positive or negative.[/QUOTE=Dark Muse;787382]

*Exactly.*

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## John Lark

> *"People in their right mind never take pride in their talents" -Harper Lee(To Kill A Mockingbird)-*


I'm not _quite_ sure I understand.

Say, for example, one defines himself as a lyric poet, and destroys every teleological relation to the surrounding world, that is, he does not write _in order to_ -- in order to make money, in order to enlighten people, in order to achieve something -- what other reason can he provide to himself to substantiate his production (as a lyrical poet), other than the (often humorous) self-satisfaction and joy he receives from it? 


What perplexes me, here, particularly as with regards to Harper Lee, is how anyone would even think of publishing their work if they presume to believe they have absolutely no pride in it.

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## Apathy

> I'm not _quite_ sure I understand.
> What perplexes me, here, particularly as with regards to Harper Lee, is how anyone would even think of publishing their work if they presume to believe they have absolutely no pride in it.


Just because you believe you are right about something doesn't mean you are proud that you are right. Good Authors publish to make sure everybody knows what they think, not so they get showered in praise, which is why a lot of great books do not sell well because the opinions expressed are contradict to the majority. If you found out when the world would end, you would probably tell everyone but you wouldn't be proud of it. When a doctor diagnoses an incurable disease, and is correct, do you think he takes a lot of pride in his skills as a diagnotician?

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## John Lark

> Just because you believe you are right about something doesn't mean you are proud that you are right. Good Authors publish to make sure everybody knows what they think, not so they get showered in praise, which is why a lot of great books do not sell well because the opinions expressed are contradict to the majority. If you found out when the world would end, you would probably tell everyone but you wouldn't be proud of it. When a doctor diagnoses an incurable disease, and is correct, do you think he takes a lot of pride in his skills as a diagnotician?


Ah, indeed; but you see, I think writing is a wholly separate matter entirely -- as it is an act of production, production of one's own; it's the actualisation of creativity, spunk, imagination, and thus requires particular consideration.

Just as God, Elohim, Yahweh, or whatever else one wishes to call the character, in Genesis looked upon his creations and at vary stages remarked that they were 'good', and after reviewing the completed Earth, the heavens, all the animals, and the first man, concluded that everything 'was very good', the creative writer, too, after examining his own finished work, must also conclude that 'it is good', otherwise he spends his time adding, taking away, sifting, correcting, and reforming until he _can_ finally conclude as such.

Or, to adopt a further analogy, in the same way one doesn't tell a joke that one oneself doesn't find funny, the lyrical author, in his personal domain, doesn't dare publicise a work that is lacking in what he regards as metrical eurhythmy. -- Thence it follows that self-satisfaction is the key to all creative production; outside it, all is but chore, duty, or drudgery. 


Alternatively,

If pride can only be negated by occasions of a purely detrimental or poignant variety, then can having it really be such a bad thing?

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## Veho

> "Just be yourself, because life's too short to be anybody else."


A quote I rather like.

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## blazeofglory

To be oneself all one has to do is unlearn or de-condition oneself.

Our minds are layered and our thoughts are simply modifications of our experiences of the past.

To live in the now is hard.

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## Apathy

"I would rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not."
-Kurt Cobain-
"Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are"
-Kurt Cobain-

These are Quotes that I adore and I think express my feelings towards this topic. :Nod:  Also, Nirvana is an amazing band. :Banana:

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## blazeofglory

[QUOTE=Apathy;787671]


> I cannot say I truly care about their positive thoughts about me, if I did than I would not post controversial or disagreeable things, and only go along with whatever anyone else says and agree with them. 
> 
> I do not post just to try to gain approval or for the sake of seeking positive feedback, but more out of simple curiosity to see what others will say, but that is not quite the same as caring about what they say, at least not in a personal way. I am intellectually interested in the thoughts of others. But their thoughts good or bad will not have an affect upon me in my personal life. 
> 
> If I am in a discussion I generally try not to ignore any comments, positive or negative.[/QUOTE=Dark Muse;787382]
> 
> *Exactly.*


Of course these thoughts give something intellectual gratification, and in fact we must see how we are learning through others' comments. If we are intimidated by the idea that others may criticize and it is better to keep quiet we will never learn anything in life. For if we read what opinions others have about us we can correct ourselves. You cannot see your face, and you have to look at yourself in the mirror. Or others have to say about your face. In the same way until and unless others say something about you or point out your mistakes you can hardly learn. And this is how a poet can refine the art of versification. It is the liking of the reader a poem is good or bad. Today almost all novels are reader-centric or books are written mostly taking into consideration of the interests of the reader.

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## blazeofglory

> "I would rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I am not."
> -Kurt Cobain-
> "Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are"
> -Kurt Cobain-
> 
> These are Quotes that I adore and I think express my feelings towards this topic. Also, Nirvana is an amazing band.


These are really interesting quotes. I too like this idea. To be myself, and not what others want me to be or at times if others praise me for what I am not I feel really humiliated.

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## Apathy

> Of course these thoughts give something intellectual gratification, and in fact we must see how we are learning through others' comments. If we are intimidated by the idea that others may criticize and it is better to keep quiet we will never learn anything in life. For if we read what opinions others have about us we can correct ourselves. You cannot see your face, and you have to look at yourself in the mirror. Or others have to say about your face. In the same way until and unless others say something about you or point out your mistakes you can hardly learn. And this is how a poet can refine the art of versification. It is the liking of the reader a poem is good or bad. Today almost all novels are reader-centric or books are written mostly taking into consideration of the interests of the reader.


When you look in a mirror, it is completely different to listening what others say about your face.
If others think you are ugly, and you like what you see when you look in a mirror, then are you going to change to make them happy?
If you are happy withwho you are, you can still listen to what others think but what you think is the important part.
"Before I can live with others, I have to live with myself."
-Harper Lee(To Kill A Mockingbird)-

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## blazeofglory

> When you look in a mirror, it is completely different to listening what others say about your face.
> If others think you are ugly, and you like what you see when you look in a mirror, then are you going to change to make them happy?
> If you are happy withwho you are, you can still listen to what others think but what you think is the important part.
> "Before I can live with others, I have to live with myself."
> -Harper Lee(To Kill A Mockingbird)-


I agree and that is exactly how I want to live in life in point of fact, for I can be happy if I do what I think best not what others want me to do.

But we live in society and there fare family, friends, relatives,neighbors and the like. There are commonly accepted values, systems, codes of conducts, manners and mores in point of fact. I cannot ignore them and as ling as I am in society I will have to listen to what they say.

This is indeed against individualism and this is more manifest in a communist society. You may disagree with me.

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## Apathy

> I agree and that is exactly how I want to live in life in point of fact, for I can be happy if I do what I think best not what others want me to do.
> 
> But we live in society and there fare family, friends, relatives,neighbors and the like. There are commonly accepted values, systems, codes of conducts, manners and mores in point of fact. I cannot ignore them and as ling as I am in society I will have to listen to what they say.
> 
> This is indeed against individualism and this is more manifest in a communist society. You may disagree with me.


I agree, the absence of these norms is known as Anomie and I live my life with A&A= Apathy and Anomie

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## caddy_caddy

> When you look in a mirror, it is completely different to listening what others say about your face.
> If others think you are ugly, and you like what you see when you look in a mirror, then are you going to change to make them happy?
> If you are happy withwho you are, you can still listen to what others think but what you think is the important part.
> "Before I can live with others, I have to live with myself."


Apathy , when we say we care what the others do think of us, it doesn't mean we are going to change according to what they think. No one said that .Moreover , i don't think those people would respect you if you are going to change who u really are to please them . 
The other might be my mirror and sometimes he can see what I can't see in myself .

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## Apathy

> The other might be my mirror and sometimes he can see what I can't see in myself .


That's a good point, but I find that with a substantial and prolonged lack of friends, you attain an awesome awareness of self. I am not saying you should pursue this miserable state but if you are unfortunate enough, well...

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## soundofmusic

> That's a good point, but I find that with a substantial and prolonged lack of friends, you attain an awesome awareness of self. I am not saying you should pursue this miserable state but if you are unfortunate enough, well...


I applaud that you are brave enough to be who you are. So many people go through their whole lives putting on a facade with their work clothes, another with their friends and another with their loved ones. Only in those few frightful moments before sleep; or in dreams, do we face ourselves.

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## The Comedian

> I applaud that you are brave enough to be who you are. So many people go through their whole lives putting on a facade with their work clothes, another with their friends and another with their loved ones. Only in those few frightful moments before sleep; or in dreams, do we face ourselves.


Really? I find it rather difficult to _not_ be who I am, regardless of the clothes I put on or the friends whose company I keep. I'm a lot of things: working professional, father, friend, brother, drinker of beer, writer. In each one of these roles, I am slightly different, a part of me shines more brightly or is more useful than other parts, but nonetheless, I am always who I am. 

I've long thought that asking someone who he or she really is is akin to asking a rainbow what it's true color is.

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## blazeofglory

We We really could be happier if we do what we think best, or something that pops up within us but our actions, behaviors, works, ambitions, the directions we take are all guided by what others think

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## glover7

> Really? I find it rather difficult to _not_ be who I am, regardless of the clothes I put on or the friends whose company I keep. I'm a lot of things: working professional, father, friend, brother, drinker of beer, writer. In each one of these roles, I am slightly different, a part of me shines more brightly or is more useful than other parts, but nonetheless, I am always who I am.


This. What people tend to ignore is the multifaceted identity. Certain of my qualities among some friends are not appreciated by, say, my parents, so those specific qualities tend to quashed in favor of others. 

And, Apathy, for someone who claims not to care what other people think, you certainly do quote a lot of other people  :Wink:

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## soundofmusic

> Really? I find it rather difficult to _not_ be who I am, regardless of the clothes I put on or the friends whose company I keep. I'm a lot of things: working professional, father, friend, brother, drinker of beer, writer. In each one of these roles, I am slightly different, a part of me shines more brightly or is more useful than other parts, but nonetheless, I am always who I am. 
> 
> I've long thought that asking someone who he or she really is is akin to asking a rainbow what it's true color is.


Excellent point! Don't you find, though, that the father role is at polar opposites to the drinker of beer? I find that the mother in me is very prudish and the friend is a very liberal thinker!




> This. What people tend to ignore is the multifaceted identity. Certain of my qualities among some friends are not appreciated by, say, my parents, so those specific qualities tend to quashed in favor of others


Yes, I find that also; though I find that the unappreciated qualities can only be quashed so long. What was it Oscar Wilde and Ben Franklin and a number of other people have said: The only way to overcome a temptation is to indulge it...mind you :Goof:  I am not promoting the idea :Angel:

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## blazeofglory

Our sources of energies dry up if we become too much obsessed with the rest of the world opine about us and this too much concernedness about others breeds arrogance and we are supercilious thinking about others opinions and this mars our sense of individuality in point of fact

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## subterranean

> I do not post just to try to gain approval or for the sake of seeking positive feedback, but more out of simple curiosity to see what others will say, but that is not quite the same as caring about what they say, at least not in a personal way. I am intellectually interested in the thoughts of others. _But their thoughts good or bad will not have an affect upon me in my personal life_.


Note: emphasize added.

Now that you mentioned about 'personal life', I come to think I tend to apply such thought (gain people's approval) differently in different aspects. For example, work wise, of course my goal is to seek the outcome from my boss based on the objectives given to me. What s/he thought about my performance matters to me. But I won't seek her/his approval on things that don't relate to my professional performance. Understand that professional demands might changed (and perhaps have changed) me as a person, but they are not always end up as bad things.

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## blazeofglory

In fact I am ashamed to express here that I am not behaving the way I should do; I am not what I am and all my, if not all, most of my actions are shaped by what others want me to do; all are there staging there incessantly engaged in shaping the course of life I should take; my parents stuffing my mind with their nonsensical ideas and ideologies conditioning my mind all the time, for I have to obey for we have a contractual agreement between us; my societies, my relatives, teachers, Gurus, books, the friends on different forums want me to behave in a funnily different way than I actually would want. Imagine how much-hard-pressed I am. Can I behave or be what I want to?

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## PierreGringoire

> Of course we all are too much obsessed with what others will think about us and at times I feel all we do are instigated by others or that we are too much obsessed with others' business more than our own. 
> 
> When we get too muchness about others reaction to what we do or behave we feel too much pressured.
> 
> Therein exactly where problems lie when we kind of totally become totally fixated by others' reactions or thoughts about what we do.
> 
> That is exactly from where problems start.
> 
> Let us live on our own unthinking about what the rest think about us.
> ...


Nice post. Easier said than done. I am always obsessed with what others think about me--and I find that being obsessed makes life more fun and interesting. When you are always anticipating what others are thinking about you. 75% of the time you are wrong. But the very few times that you are right, you feel glorified that for just one fleeting moment, you may be on the exact same train of thought. And it makes you feel a little less alone...

To Dark Muse~ "Who cares what others think about me" sentiment:

You shouldn't care. That doesn't mean you are a misanthrope. At least not to its extreme I hope to god. If it had "hurt" their feelings. Should you care? You are not obligated to care. Perhaps its ineffecient and cumbersome to care. And perhaps its retarted not to care. Who knows when you'll be needing that person? Or who knows what close friends that person has in common with you. Perhaps someone you have chosen to care about will be indirectly affected by a fractional amount.

Should you care? It shouldn't stick with you, like guilt, if that is what you mean. Unless you use the guilt to maximize the benefits of whatever philosophy or way of life you abide in.

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## blazeofglory

In fact what you said is correct and it is fun when someone instigates you to do something and of course if it is on balance I subscribe to this idea, but things are not so always, and we tend lose interests in things we innately want to do in life but when what we really want to do cannot be done and what others want us to do drive us life will be full of stress and that is why there is violence, sadism in the world, and as a matter of fact people want to amass wealth heap upon heap and this greed is triggered not by the need of the person accumulating wealth but by a desire of becoming a dominant figure in point of fact. For example I choose to live in a skyscraper not out of need but out of greed or the fact that my neighbor has built a skyscraper and why should I not build one and this then engorges his own ego and there will be cutthroat competition between him and me. I have to by hook or by crook compete with my neighbor. That is what instigates people to indulge in bribery, money laundering and other kind of fraudulent activities. Of course as a social being we have to do things to please, satisfy others. We cannot go unhearing what our family members have to say as a matter of fact. In many cases bribery or embezzlement 
of public funds take place by people driven by their family inducements. I know people taking bribes when their spouses motivate them to do so. Imagine what will be the consequence of doing things promoted by what others want you to do. 

We cannot completely abstain from not doing what others want us to do in substance. But we must use our conscience as a guiding star so that we can keep us from falling off. Conscience is with everyone in the world and every man has this asset and if we listen to it and do not get swayed by what others want us to do we can live with poise and harmony in life or else we will be doomed to suffer the insufferable. Let us be ourselves not themselves

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## PierreGringoire

> In fact what you said is correct and it is fun when someone instigates you to do something and of course if it is on balance I subscribe to this idea, but things are not so always, and we tend lose interests in things we innately want to do in life but when what we really want to do cannot be done and what others want us to do drive us life will be full of stress and that is why there is violence, sadism in the world, and as a matter of fact people want to amass wealth heap upon heap and this greed is triggered not by the need of the person accumulating wealth but by a desire of becoming a dominant figure in point of fact. For example I choose to live in a skyscraper not out of need but out of greed or the fact that my neighbor has built a skyscraper and why should I not build one and this then engorges his own ego and there will be cutthroat competition between him and me. I have to by hook or by crook compete with my neighbor. That is what instigates people to indulge in bribery, money laundering and other kind of fraudulent activities. Of course as a social being we have to do things to please, satisfy others. We cannot go unhearing what our family members have to say as a matter of fact. In many cases bribery or embezzlement 
> of public funds take place by people driven by their family inducements. I know people taking bribes when their spouses motivate them to do so. Imagine what will be the consequence of doing things promoted by what others want you to do. 
> 
> We cannot completely abstain from not doing what others want us to do in substance. But we must use our conscience as a guiding star so that we can keep us from falling off. Conscience is with everyone in the world and every man has this asset and if we listen to it and do not get swayed by what others want us to do we can live with poise and harmony in life or else we will be doomed to suffer the insufferable. Let us be ourselves not themselves


you are going "macro" on me  :Smile: . I agree the "evil" that comes from a lot of people is because of them trying to create an image of themself because they are actively trying to manipulate the perception of others. 

An image they would not normally feign if they did not want to influence/ or make other people see them in a certain way.

You cut that behavior out of everyone, and surely you'll get a more peaceful world to live in. But perhaps by cutting this trait, you also cannot fail but to cut the vein that springs curiousity (for inventions) and genorosity (for fun and happiness)

Of course the obvious response would be to "just cut out the things that makes one want to do violence." Only cut out the "player's" fear. If he didn't fear for his life, surely he would be a nicer person. Fear comes from neglect. Just as confidence comes from consistency  :Wink: . Erase neglect

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## Scheherazade85

We sure have a lot of romanticisms of ourselves. The great ideals that we have for ourselves, i.e., how we ideally see ourselves is one thing; the impression that we create towards others is another. It is foolishness to revere the latter; however, it is hypocrisy to patronize the former.

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## PierreGringoire

> We sure have a lot of romanticisms of ourselves. The great ideals that we have for ourselves, i.e., how we ideally see ourselves is one thing; the impression that we create towards others is another. It is foolishness to revere the latter; however, it is hypocrisy to patronize the former.


So its arrogant to think of ourselves as having all the answers in the world.
Which would lead to problems.
And foolish to worry about the impressions we leave on others. 
Which would lead to problems.

I'm trying to extract that little bit for everything it is worth  :Smile: 

It all comes down to two things:
Be involved (consistent) or be neglectful. Perhaps the involved part has charitable connotations to it in order for it to make sense.
And if we break it down to those 2, it makes things a lot more easier.

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## billl

> It all comes down to two things:
> Be involved (consistent) or be neglectful.


Just want to point out that "neglectful" can be a 'loaded term'. e.g. We could think of being "involved with" a criminal scheme, or "not involved" with it (to give an exaggerated, but possible, example). "Neglectful" immediately suggests a morally negative position. "Not involved" is neutral, and allows circumstances to suggest the morality of the position.

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## sylvzreyes44

"What other people think of me is none of my business"
You can't please everybody. You don't have to worry much about what other people say about you as long as you know that you don't harm anybody, you don't hurt anybody and you don't push anybody to their limits. 

publish a book
book publishing

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## Apathy

> And, Apathy, for someone who claims not to care what other people think, you certainly do quote a lot of other people


I can still respect the thoughts of those I admire, also many of the qoutes I use are because they can say what I think better than I can

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## blazeofglory

This is a mind-boggling thread and in fact I like the thread beyond words and now I want to spice up it for it has greater significance, bearing and relevance to all what we do or think in day to day course. As I so many times wrote that one of the reasons why we stress out ourselves is we care for and this goes at times un-proportionately to the extent of getting us to collapse. I do most of my activities not out of the need but out of the instigation by others, by my own family members thinking that if he earns that much why should I not outsmart in earning and that in fact motivates me to undertake dark alleys in life and I may do the unthinkable. Why crimes happen? We want illimitable assets, honors, fames and if you are on the right track or if you do not use devious ways you are likely to fail in life and you never can succeed. Personally I like to live a life of simplicity, un-sumptuousness, minimalism, but the society I am in does not approve of this.

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## PierreGringoire

> This is a mind-boggling thread and in fact I like the thread beyond words and now I want to spice up it for it has greater significance, bearing and relevance to all what we do or think in day to day course. As I so many times wrote that one of the reasons why we stress out ourselves is we care for and this goes at times un-proportionately to the extent of getting us to collapse. I do most of my activities not out of the need but out of the instigation by others, by my own family members thinking that if he earns that much why should I not outsmart in earning and that in fact motivates me to undertake dark alleys in life and I may do the unthinkable. Why crimes happen? We want illimitable assets, honors, fames and if you are on the right track or if you do not use devious ways you are likely to fail in life and you never can succeed. Personally I like to live a life of simplicity, un-sumptuousness, minimalism, but the society I am in does not approve of this.


Good point. Although it is you who are baseing your "success" off of what other people think in the first place. I don't know if you ever eat at Jimmy John's. But I read a sign there that read this--- it gives an interesting lesson.


How Much is Enough? 

The American businessman was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellow-fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them. The Mexican replied only a little while. The American then asked why didn't he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family's immediate needs. The American then asked, but what do you do with the rest of your time? 

The Mexican fisherman said, I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siesta with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life, senor. 

The American scoffed, I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds buy a bigger boat with the proceeds from the bigger boat you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually NYC where you will run your expanding enterprise. The Mexican fisherman asked, But senor, how long will this all take? To which the American replied, 15-20 years. 

But what then, senor? 

The American laughed and said thats the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions. 

Millions, senor? Then what? 

The American said, Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.

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## PierreGringoire

> I posted this quotation upon my blog, and it had stimulated a lot of interesting commentary and differing points of view upon the subject so it was suggested to me by Scher that it could make an interesting group discussion and I figured why not? 
> 
> The quote is as follows: 
> 
> 
> 
> I heard the quote on the radio, and the person who stated it said she got it from Flowers for Algernon.
> 
> The discursion upon my blog brought up the idea if one does in fact have a responsibility of some sort to consider what other people think of them in relation to their actions, and how the react to other people, and if there is some sort of generally responsibility to society regarding how one is perceived. 
> ...


I'd just like to point out that you have two beliefs working here.
1) That you don't care what other people think of you
2) That you don't care about the feeling of other people (obviously, your not extremely rude, like you said. But the degree of neglect you have of other people's feelings is kind of ambiguous-- and I cannot assume that it leans toward one extreme or the other-- therefore it is hard to try to prove your theories with my reason.)

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## blazeofglory

The idea of becoming others is really fascinating but that will do great smash up your real self. Of course if your neighbors are billionaires and won private jets you too long for them and of course this longing in itself is a good virtue, something natural of humans, and yet the action you take to accomplish your desire maybe curved not always straight and you may have to take a hook to be where you want to be. That is how crimes happen. I have seen a man who was in a custom office but made little money from the service. He was a high ranking official and but always refrained from taking bribes under all circumstances. People- his relatives, friends, and family members disapprove of his acts, too much altruistic and later on he got transferred. He never cared about what others think and he totally and unswervingly focused his minds on the jobs he was assigned and he wanted to prove his honesty, loyalty at all costs. 

And as a result he was a failed, neighbor, an unsuccessful father or husband and could not keep friends for he had no bucks to take friends to restaurants. This entails the fact that you are a social creature and of course you have to adapt to a new circumstance and meet demands and if you fail to this end you will drop behind in life.

The reality I always keep in mind is that most of us move because what others may think about us. A husband is always worried because he has not been able to satisfy the needs of his wife and the idea what my spouse will think about my inability to make fast bucks. This expectation of others and our endeavors to satisfy us will stress us out and we will be as a result a very miserable creature in this world. The large masses of wealth do not happen out of real needs but out of greed or out of the motives behind it said above.

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