# Reading > Forum Book Club >  July / Counter - Culture Reading: On the Road

## Scheherazade

*In July, we will be reading On the Road by Jack Kerouack.

Please post your comments and questions in this thread.*

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## Uberzensch

Did you notice that poll says "On the Roof"?

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## Stargazer86

I just googled it and it looks interesting  :Smile:  I'm off to the bookstore next week!

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## medusa_woman

Is this where we post comments about our reading of On The Road? I'm just making sure -- I know it says it on top. I guess I thought people would be writing every day? I guess that's not how it's done?

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## Dark Muse

Yes, this is the place for discussing On the Road, but some people probably haven't started the book yet, or gotton that far into it, and some like to wait untill they are finnished reading before they comment on it, but one can post at any time, there are no real rules on how to do it, though it is prefered to post a warning if one is going to post a spoiler, for those who might not have finnished the book yet.

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## Mathor

I need to get this book!

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## Dark Muse

When I started reading this book I thought it was kind of interesting because it was really quite unlike anything I have read before. Though I have read some of the beat poetry, and admittedly don't care for a lot of it that much, but I never read a novel about that generation and so the tone and style of the book was quite different than what I have been accustomed to reading. 

But now it is starting to drag for me, because the novelty wore off, and nothing new is happening, it has some nice prose work here and there, but it is just the same thing over and over, there is no anticipation or expectation. It reminds me of a movie I tried to watch about these two guys who got lost in a desert, and I kept falling asleep but every time I woke up, it was just like, and they are still walking through the desert. I don't think anything else happened in the whole, hour or two hours of that movie. 

So I haven't gotten even half-way through yet, and I am starting to get a little bored with it.

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## TheFifthElement

That's interesting DM, because I've had quite the opposite experience. I wasn't reading _On the Road_ for the reading group, just in general anyway, but I don't know. At first I wasn't too interested and then it hit me BAM and suddenly I feel like I don't want to ever stop reading it. The whole book strikes me as a wild-zen analogy of life; living in the moment, experiencing, up and down the same road, living by your wits and scraping scraping scraping scraping and through it all the only constant, the only real constant is yourself and the madness and the beauty and the torture and the wildness of life. And there's something about JOY and the oppressive love that Kerouac has for Cassady that despite the madness and the degredation and the chaos and the frailty and tenuousness of life it is still marvellous and amazing. And I don't know if I'm getting IT or it whatever it is but I'm getting something. And I can see now where the supposed link with buddhism comes, though I don't profess to be any kind of expert on buddhism, but I see Kerouac throughout the book as being on an amazing wheel rolling rolling rolling one way or the other and getting nowhere and then there's these moments when he gets it when everything is one and complete and calm, when the wheel stops rolling. And there's peace in that, I think. 

I'm reading the original scroll; someone told me that was more representative of Kerouac's style which is very free and very open, or at least that's what I'm getting from it anyway. I don't get the sense that Kerouac strained and struggled over every word and there's a kind of madness in that too. But it's quite attractive, as madness goes. Anyways I'm about 50 pages from the end and I'm a bit sad about it and I'm probably going to spend a lot of time going _yes, yass, yes...ahem...yup_ over the next few days.

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## Dark Muse

I will see what happens as I continue, right now I am on like the 13th of 14th chapter in Part 1 and I have hit a moment where I am having to force myself to plough through to keep reading, but maybe I will get over the hump and it will spark an interest in me, or maybe the style is just not my thing, and I won't ever really get into it. Right now, it does not speak to me on any real level and I don't see the enlightment of it, it is just a guy hanging out with with this group of friends, and then hanging out with that group friends, and just constantly talking about being out of money, and drinking, and traveling from here to there. And I have a feeling the whole book is just going to be that repeating itself over and over agian.

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## medusa_woman

I've been wanting to read this book for a long time. And I was worried that I had put it off for too long. I knew that I wouldn't feel the impact that the first readers felt in the 1950s when all this was new and shocking -- when post-war America was settling in the suburbs. The sex was scandalous! There was no structure! Drugs, drugs, drugs! So, in that respect, I'm not surprised that I find the events in the book pretty tame. I was excited that the book opened up in NYC -- he talked about places I know -- but then before long, he was on that BORING trip to Denver -- the details and the stops -- I found that to be a drag. However, just before he arrived in Denver -- maybe it was when he was on that big truck driven by the brothers when all the riders were crowded into the back, I began to get caught up in his enthusiasm. His delight in everything around him -- the lack of pretense, his interest in everything. He makes me feel like I'm missing out on what's out there on the road, in the world. I feel bogged down by my possessions. When he talked about sleeping out all night in the deserted ship, I wondered when the last time was that I slept out under the stars. So far, I'm enjoying the ride!

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## Dark Muse

Yeah right now I am where he is still in CA and it was kind of fun reading him mention places that are close to him, or that I might have personally been to. In some ways I envy that being able to just get up one day and decide to go with the wind and worry about nothing else ahead of time and just see what comes as it does and figure it out along the way.

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## MSDGreen

So far this book just reminds me of life. How places can stay the same, but feel different. The only thing that makes sense sometimes is to just keep going. Almost like they are drawn to live like vagabonds.

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## Dark Muse

I have just begun Part 2 and I do not know why, since it hasn't really changed much, it is pretty much the same as Part 1 but I am getting a little more into it I think. Or at least I have enjoyed the part of it so far. I really enjoyed the scenes in New Orleans with Bull. 

One thing I notcied, and perhaps it is just a further expression of the carefree attitude within the story, and that whole idea of living on the whim, but it seems as if the narrator pays a lot of attention to the way other people laugh and the affect thier laughter has.

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## caspian

I was expecting something disgusting like Henry Miller's- but thanks God, it wasn't that nasty. so I finished it.
I liked the first (almost DeanLESS) part . Enjoyed hitchhiking parts-so many colourful characters. Loved time with Remi (dostioffski :FRlol: ) - funniest part of the book. Felt for poor Terry.
I hated the rest of the book, reading about this disgusting Dean guy, his women, parties,whole gang of petty thiefs, immorality...................
Glad discovered Beat generation - something new for me

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## Dark Muse

Dean got a little of annoying, but I cannot say I really hated him that much, becasue the women who got involved with him all knew just what he was about and what to expect from him, so they were willingly a part of his lifestyle. 

I found Part 1 one of the book was a bit boring to me, I really enjoyed Part 2 perhaps becasue of my interest in New Orleans and most of that part being set there, but I loved reading about thier whole jouney back to California. There were some really interesting verses in Part 2 I thought. 

I just loved this




> What is that feeling when you're driving away from people and they recede on the plain till you see thier specks dispersing?--it's the too-huge world vaulting us, and it's good-by. But we lean forward to the next crazy venture beneath the skies.


I am just getting ready to start Part 3

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## qimissung

I just got the book from the library today. It is _On the Road, The Original Scroll_. I didn't realize he had written it really as a scroll originally. He is meeting Neal Cassady and Louanne for the first time.He writes of him..."for to him (Neal Cassady) sex was the one and only holy and important thing in life, although he had to sweat and curse to make a living, and so on." That last part is true enough anyway.

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## qimissung

At first I didn't think I was going to like it. I found it pretty hard going for the first 20 pages or so, then he got to Denver and it really picked up for me. I forgot the time and I quit looking at the page numbers to see how many I'd read. 

He partied his way through Denver and now he's in San Francisco with a friend..."He woke up and saw me come in the window. His great laugh, on of the greatest laughs in the world, dinned in my ear."

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## LMK

_On the Road_, is on the same bookshelf in my head with _The Catcher in the Rye_ and _Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance_.

Of the three, _On the Road_ was perhaps my least favorite, but then I prefer fiction to memoirs and that is how it read to me personally.

My two cents worth.

~L

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## qimissung

Didn't he adapt the novel from his personal experiences? I'm reading "On the Road, The Original Scroll" which is the copy my library had, and I believe the novel is based on the cross-country trips he took, so in that sense, it is a memoir.

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## LMK

Yes, qimissung,

I believe it is, even though it is called a novel, and that is probably why I didn't fancy it much.

~L

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## Dark Muse

I had been wondering if this was indeed meant to be based off his real life, becasue it sounded like it probably was. 

So far Part 2 for me was the most interesting part of the book. Part 1 started to get a little dull after a while, and was a bit of a bore to have to push through. Part 2 I found to pick up and get a little more interesting, in part probably becasue a good part of it took place in New Orleans, which is of interest to me. 

But Part 3 is starting to drag again for me. 

For one thing the entire book is just going back and forth between New York and San Francisco, and just the same things happening over and over between adventures, though now and than they meet a few new people. And I have to say Dean's rantings seem to just go on and on for me, and I don't find them particuarly interesting. 

One thing that struck me as a bit odd or amusing, as I could never understand why Sal was always so eager to return back to San Fran. when it seemed like everytime he goes there, he ends up leaving dissapointed and has had some misfrontunate experince happen there.

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## caspian

> Didn't he adapt the novel from his personal experiences? I'm reading "On the Road, The Original Scroll" which is the copy my library had, and I believe the novel is based on the cross-country trips he took, so in that sense, it is a memoir.


Yes, its really based on his real life experience. And all the characters of the novel were his friends  writers that created Beat Generation A group of American writers and artists popular in the 1950s and early 1960s, influenced by Eastern philosophy and religion and known especially for their use of nontraditional forms and their rejection of conventional social values. 

And Dean was a friend (Neal Cassady) who actually helped JK to create his own style. He wrote the scroll in three weeks, but it took 9 nine years for the book to be published. Truman commented about the scroll as:its typing, not writing

Probably Im missing out something by not being an American. But its a little shocking for me -how petty thief with immoral values could become an icon, almost national hero. 
I hated the theme, but loved JKs style. I just wonder, what his books-memoirs would be like if he led straight life, instead of being in drugs and involved with BG. Wouldnt he be more like De Sent Exupery?! ok, I just have to forget the fact that Dean inspired JK to create his style. :Biggrin: 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ke...oad_scroll.jpg
The scroll" still exists  it was bought in 2001, by Jim Irsay (Indianapolis Colts football team owner), for $2.4 million, and is available for public viewing. The scroll was displayed in sections at Indiana University's Lilly Library in mid-2003, and in January 2004, the roll started a thirteen-stop, four-year national tour of museums and libraries, starting at the Orange County History Center in Orlando, Florida. From January through March 2006, it was at the San Francisco Public Library with the first 30 feet (9 m) unrolled. It spent three months at the New York Public Library in 2007, and in the spring of 2008 visited the Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center at the University of Texas at Austin. The scroll traveled next to Columbia College Chicago in the autumn of 2008, then was displayed at the Birmingham University in England, before being moved once more to University College, Dublin,Ireland and then to NUI Maynooth before returning to the US in March 2009.

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## Dark Muse

The loose morality was not that bothersome to me in the story, most of it seemed to be pretty minor, I did not per sae condone all the behavior, but still there were worse things they could be doing than what they did. 

The thing I found most annoying about Dean was his selfishness, though some could argue that is tied into the loose morals, the two are not explicitly synonymous with each other. One could be selfish without committing crimes, just as one can commit criminal acts and still be loyal at least to their friends. 

Dean just used people for his own purpose, though toward the end of the story though I still did not approve of Dean I began to take pity on him, because his behavior seemed to start to take on a much more desperate role, it almost seemed as if he did have regrets, but he just did not know how to live any other way.

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## Joyeuse

First of all, I have to say that I loved this book when I read it, but I did read it a while back, so I'm sorry if for the majority of this post I paint with a broader brush than is perhaps appropriate for a book club discussion. That said, many parts of the book have stayed with me since I originally read it, and I don't think I'll ever forget some of the beautiful details Kerouac painted when talking about music. That crazy bongo drummer obsessed with putting "orouni" after a bunch of words and that one musician yelling in a raspy voice, "Don't die to go to heaven! Start in on Dr. Pepper and end up on whiskey!" were simply ingenious. It seemed to epitomize the whole book, in a way. The spontaneity and ecstasy permeated both so beautifully. So of course The New Orleans section was my favorite part of the novel, just like Dark Muse, for that reason. But the point of all that was really to say that, if you like the novel, it's one that can easily stick with you.

To address the loose morality of the book: it didn't bother me, partly because it was petty, but also because I thought it enhanced the point of the book. For me, the reader wasn't supposed to want to meet these people, per se, or become them. They were just supposed to respect the freedom the cast had created.

Sal and Dean were pretty free to do whatever they wanted. They followed their impulses often, constantly improvised when things got hairy, and just had fun for the sake of it. This liberty caused a lot of loneliness, on the one hand, that is easily seen in Sal's writing when he's by himself. Sometimes, it's just depressing to be wholly responsible for yourself, yet have no purpose in life. On the other hand, it's one of America's greatest values, freedom, taken to its greatest extent.

It's also a value that I think was severely lacking in that age. America was such a homogenous society at the time: fascism was being fought in Germany, television was becoming more pervasive in American life, etc. Jack, Neal and the rest of the Beat Generation were simply refusing to play by those rules. They were taking pre-conceived notions and asking why. They were looking at common thought and rejecting it. They were trying to live a truly American way, valuing the individual over society. They were valuing freedom over safety.

In a lot of ways, they were doing that because they were selfish. I accept that. But at the same time, so many of them were educated at the Ivies. They were self-centered, or simply hedonistic, but they also had knowledge of so many others. They knew of the cultural classics and the more minor authors. They knew what civilization had to offer them. They had seen the very best society could turn out to appease them. Yet they still took to the gratifying street-culture. They still found it worthwhile and appealing to be hoboes, to take drugs, and to meet criminals. They still worshipped jazz. Even "Dean Moriarty," (Neal Cassady) some young kid with a long rap sheet, could have a major effect on the group, simply by the way his letters were written.

To show why they loved street life so much, they were inspired by every literary source imaginable. To communicate an idea, they tried to break the barriers of literature, going to places sometimes interesting and exciting, though sometimes boring and predictable.

Their knowledge was so great and broad that they had the ultimate liberty to do whatever they wanted with it. They didn't have to follow anyone, or accept anything at face value. They knew the deeper philosophical implications that had been debated throughout the eras, and weren't ready to let some higher authority tell them what was right and what was wrong. They were creating their own value systems. In doing so, they found they valued street life above many other things. It was a strange decision, one that hadn't been made too many times prior, but it was still an educated one. They spat in the face of contemporary mass-culture and decided mankind needed to go in a different direction.

But through it all, they won out, in a way. They directly inspired the 60's culture. Suddenly Counter-culture became the culture itself.

It was a bittersweet victory for a lot of reasons. There were so many early deaths, the hippies fostered irresponsibility on a wide scale, and some of the thoughts of the Beat generation were betrayed.

That's surprisingly irrelevant, though. It was individual vs. society. This time, the individuals won. It took only a small group of people to radically transform the thoughts of a society. That's powerful. That's important. In my opinion, that makes _On the Road_ one of the great American novels.

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## Dark Muse

> To address the loose morality of the book: it didn't bother me, partly because it was petty, but also because I thought it enhanced the point of the book. For me, the reader wasn't supposed to want to meet these people, per se, or become them. They were just supposed to respect the freedom the cast had created.


Yes I agree, and personally I do not think that that Sal/Keruoac were trying to validate, or encourage that lifestyle, I do not think the book really completely condones or apporves of it, but it is showing another side if you will, and displaying the "values" of that time, as well as you talk about that idea of a complete unaccountable freedom. It is giving people a view into a life they might night acutally ever turly come into contact with, from a safe distrance if you will as well as perhaps trying to enable the reader to walk in someone elses shoes. To perhaps understand that lifestyle, even if they do not endorse it.




> Sal and Dean were pretty free to do whatever they wanted. They followed their impulses often, constantly improvised when things got hairy, and just had fun for the sake of it. This liberty caused a lot of loneliness, on the one hand, that is easily seen in Sal's writing when he's by himself. Sometimes, it's just depressing to be wholly responsible for yourself, yet have no purpose in life. On the other hand, it's one of America's greatest values, freedom, taken to its greatest extent.


I do not feel as if Sal himself was so completely without purpose. It seemed to me as if he was just looking to have a good time. He was intrigued by Dean, but I do not think he truly was a Dean, nor wanted to really be Dean as it were. It mentions that he is going to school, and his escapades happen when he is on break from his classes. As well he talks about how he does wante to settle down.

The lonliness of it I think does really come through in the character of Dean, I think his increassing "madness" as Sal calls it is driven from the fact, that he truly really has no one, nor does he have any goal in life, he is the one who is completely built upon the idea of living directly from one moment to the next, but toward the end of the book it can be seen where doing so does begin to wear even upon him. Everyone looses faith in him, and all he can do is keep doing what he has always done, but it does seem to eat at him in some part. Even if he is not as sympathetic character, I started to grow sorry for him, becasue it seemed he was not truly happy, and tried to always be running away from himself, and his deeper feelings and just live on the surface so he did not have to face himself. 




> In a lot of ways, they were doing that because they were selfish. I accept that. But at the same time, so many of them were educated at the Ivies. They were self-centered, or simply hedonistic, but they also had knowledge of so many others. They knew of the cultural classics and the more minor authors. They knew what civilization had to offer them. They had seen the very best society could turn out to appease them. Yet they still took to the gratifying street-culture. They still found it worthwhile and appealing to be hoboes, to take drugs, and to meet criminals. They still worshipped jazz. Even "Dean Moriarty," (Neal Cassady) some young kid with a long rap sheet, could have a major effect on the group, simply by the way his letters were written.


With the shattering effect that the war had, I think they were also trying to redifine themselves to try and get the world to make sense again. The horrors of the war displaced the old vaule system, and challenged what they thought they knew of the world. They had to try and find a new way to make sense of things, for both the emotional and physcial trama which was caused. The matterilaism and the self-centerenedness of it all came from the dissassotation and issolation which came out of the war, and perhaps the struggle to try and find some way to connect again.

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## Joyeuse

> [...]it is showing another side if you will, and displaying the "values" of that time, as well as you talk about that idea of a complete unaccountable freedom. It is giving people a view into a life they might night acutally ever turly come into contact with, from a safe distrance if you will as well as perhaps trying to enable the reader to walk in someone elses shoes. To perhaps understand that lifestyle, even if they do not endorse it.


I wonder if the same thing couldn't be said for most novels/memoirs in general. How often do you meet anyone who lives at all like people in literature? Anything that tries to be true to life and one hundred percent slice of life seems to have characters that come off as either overly cliched and stereotypical or so human and detailed that you could never find people too similar.

The members of The Beat Generation are a particularly radical example, of course, but I wonder if Jack was trying to show how his friends lived when he wrote the novel. It's probable, but for some reason, I don't think so. In a lot of ways, he is giving a window to a lifestyle, but I'm not sure if he was thinking about that at the time. 

It seems to me he was so concerned with writing to be a writer. Writing seemed to be his most likely source of income (excluding family members), so that seems another possibility to me. Yet he also seemed to use it as a cathartic experience. He really poured himself into that book, heart and soul, psychological scars and all.

Did he care if other people saw what he was writing as soon as he wrote it? Would he be comftorable with people reading his words six decades after that fact? 

I'm not sure if I would. A lot of the culture of the fourties and fifties has been saved, thankfully. But people our age will probably never know to a perfect extent what it was like to live in that era. Like I said, that era was so deeply effected by the World Wars. It would be so easy to condemn Moriarty/Cassady's free-wheeling lifestyle, but that's because our society hasn't had a paradigm-shift with such horrifying implications.

What were some intelligent kids to do? Follow their government? Yeah right.

So in that sense, it does show people to day "another side" that we will probably never see again. By the same token, I'm not sure if that was Kerouac's intent.




> I do not feel as if Sal himself was so completely without purpose. It seemed to me as if he was just looking to have a good time. He was intrigued by Dean, but I do not think he truly was a Dean, nor wanted to really be Dean as it were. It mentions that he is going to school, and his escapades happen when he is on break from his classes. As well he talks about how he does wante to settle down.


Oh, that's right. I forgot about his schooling.

That is pretty important, and I will agree that Sal and Dean were completely different people, but I'm not sure if I would agree that Sal had purpose. The way he looked for a good time seemed to be a hedonistic way of ignoring his lack of purpose. Because at the end of the day, what did he really believe in? He was going to school, but what came after the schooling? He was really attached to knowledge and learning, but that might have been searching for a purpose more than actually having one.

That said, if one's purpose is to search for a purpose, I guess that counts as having a purpose.

And the whole settling down thing struck me more as loneliness than an actual plan. Could just be me.




> The lonliness of it I think does really come through in the character of Dean, I think his increassing "madness" as Sal calls it is driven from the fact, that he truly really has no one, nor does he have any goal in life, he is the one who is completely built upon the idea of living directly from one moment to the next, but toward the end of the book it can be seen where doing so does begin to wear even upon him. Everyone looses faith in him, and all he can do is keep doing what he has always done, but it does seem to eat at him in some part. Even if he is not as sympathetic character, I started to grow sorry for him, becasue it seemed he was not truly happy, and tried to always be running away from himself, and his deeper feelings and just live on the surface so he did not have to face himself.


Couldn't agree more.




> With the shattering effect that the war had, I think they were also trying to redifine themselves to try and get the world to make sense again. The horrors of the war displaced the old vaule system, and challenged what they thought they knew of the world. They had to try and find a new way to make sense of things, for both the emotional and physcial trama which was caused. The matterilaism and the self-centerenedness of it all came from the dissassotation and issolation which came out of the war, and perhaps the struggle to try and find some way to connect again.


It's kind of interesting how Modernism, The Beats, etc. all seemed to influence Post-Modernism so greatly. Yet Post-Modernism is almost an irreverent "giving up," of sorts, on everything that the prior two movement held so dear.

How is it that the movements of those eras looking for identity, reality, and depth inspired our modern-day shunnings of identity and reality?

At the end of the day, it doesn't seem like Post-Modernism has much depth, either. The whole, "Reality is NON-EXISTENT!!!" schtick gets old after a while.

But I digress. It is funny how they were looking to connect with others through self-centeredness and materialism, isn't it? Perhaps that foreshadowed some stuff we're dealing with in our time, also.

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## Dark Muse

> That is pretty important, and I will agree that Sal and Dean were completely different people, but I'm not sure if I would agree that Sal had purpose. The way he looked for a good time seemed to be a hedonistic way of ignoring his lack of purpose. Because at the end of the day, what did he really believe in? He was going to school, but what came after the schooling? He was really attached to knowledge and learning, but that might have been searching for a purpose more than actually having one.


I suppose I just see Sal as being different because while his "partying" as it were might not have been for any purpose but the pleasure of the moment, for Sal, he was not completely defined only by that hedonistic sort of lifestyle. It seemed rather something he did when he got tired of his other life. But it seemed to me that he spent long periods of time out of contact from his old friends and contacts and had a home base in New York. He did not live explicitly just from one moment to the next, but he was also returning back east after his exploits in the west, and he was working on his book which he did get published. 

It almost seemed as if the lifestyle of the road for Sal was just like one big continuous frat party, but something that he did at times drew back from, and did not live exclusively just for that. While perhaps he did not have clear goals in his mind of what he wanted to do with his life, he did say that he wanted to find someone who he felt he could settle down with. And in the end he did meet a girl that he seemed to establish a life with, though we cannot say if they stayed together, but I think toward the end, in his leaving Dean behind at last so not to spoil things for Remi, he did show a bit more of a growing responsibility and perhaps a starting to leave that life behind him as Dean faded away form him, to fade forever from his life.

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## Joyeuse

That is a really good point. I guess I just wasn't paying attention to the parts of Jack's life that weren't focused so heavily on in the book.

That does leave the ending to a totally different interpretation also, doesn't it? I always thought of it as being one of those sad things that had to happen. In the end would you say it was a sign of Jack's development as a person that in the beginning he said, "the only ones for me are the mad ones" yet at the end was simply left to reminisce about an old friend? Kerouac is one of the few Beats I can think of who didn't die in some blazing glory of drugs/alcohol.

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## Dark Muse

Yes, I think it was a sign of his development as a person. For he watched Dean more or less detoriate over time, as his madness gripped stronger and strong upon him, and he saw the mess he was in with Marylou, Camellia, and then Inez. and how Dean was ultimately left alone, though from his own doing. As when they were in Mexico, he said he finally saw what a rat Dean was. 

I think Sal/Jack, knew he did not truly what that for himself in the end, and it was time for him to move on. Perhaps even he eventually had no choice but to loose faith in Dean by the end, but I think Dean was also symboliac of that period of his life.

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